Help a noob- pack volume (not weight)

[Just Bill]

It's (a bit past) that time of year, new folks are asking the requisite new questions; including the world famous "how big should my pack be?"

It's a free country, so vote as you will, but maybe some more experienced folks could vote in this poll to help people answer this question. But for those who feel they have a right to vote- "What size pack would you take for a thru-hike- even if you never plan to or never will thru-hike?"

I am baffled by some of the responses I hear to that question, as well as the many 88L hikers I meet on the trail. REI type staff and shoot from the hip responses don't help much either so why not try to put the question to the community and see what shakes out, develop a bit of weighted advice rather than one shot answers. While weight and volume typically go hand in hand- we are talking volume not weight.

"Experience?" Yep, that's a loaded word but in this case it's easy enough and there isn't a right or wrong camp to be in- just a camp. (Kevin and Walter- excuse me)

Tipi Walter Carries a huge pack- but that does not make him inexperienced- he packs appropriately for the type of trip he takes. Over half of his pack volume is food and fuel.

Clueless Weekender Kevin takes packs of many different sizes- for good reasons as well. A good portion of his volume is food, a decent portion is safety, comfort, and being prepared to assist the people he goes with.

I would put either of them against most Thru-hikers any day in terms of experience or knowledge. I feel confident saying that if so compelled- each could produce a good kit in the 35-50L for an AT thru.

A speedy fella like me- I have packs as small as 20L, I can do a seven day resupply on a 30L pack, but due to speed, rarely need four days. Nearly half of my pack volume is food.

Tipi, Kevin, or I are not good examples for an AT hike though, and I think it's fair to say that we would each pack differently if joining one or the other on the varied styles of trip we each take. A thru hike on the AT is a pretty straightforward trip. A thru-hiker can easily carry less gear than a typical weekender, family camper, or tramp. A thru-hiker doesn't need to be SUL or a speed hiker either. None of the extremes fit well.

I think most reasonable folks would agree with this when talking AT. For arguments sake- call it +/- 5L on the categories.
35L and under- doable with light gear but a bit of stretch for most beginners. Although many experienced long distance hikers end up here.

35-50L- just right for most travelers. Typical resupply is 3-6 days, trail services, helpful hikers, frequent town stops, etc. means you don't need many just in case items or backups.
Keep in mind- just because you need warm gear for a six weeks doesn't mean you should carry a bigger pack for six months. Nearly every recommended pack in this range has an extension collar- that's the point of them; to haul a little extra volume when you need to so you don't need to buy a bigger pack.

The 50L fence- Some smaller bodied hikers, slower folks, cold sleepers and others with some very common, but slightly less than normal requirements may need a bit more volume. If you are one of those folks then tipping past 50L is not the end of the world. If you are constantly freezing in your 30 degree bag on a sixty degree night then you will probably need more volume for clothing and sleeping than average. Basically you have an average pack volume, with a few extenuating circumstances.

50-65L-Just right for those who take it easy, carry some extra luxuries, and need the volume because they are out longer between resupplies. While many folks end up here by default and there is nothing wrong with CHOOSING to have this size- most hikers do not need this size pack. Nothing against it, but why advise someone who does not need or want the extras to take a pack designed to carry them?

For you Skurka fans- I think Andy posed a simple enough question- Are you a hiker or a camper? Hikers should shoot 35-50L, Campers typically need 50-65L.

65L+ This pack is inappropriate for a thru-hike. Sure there are exceptions- but when we are talking advice to those starting out- this is poor advice indeed. There is no compelling reason to advise a newbie get started on a six month, mainly summer weather hike with short resupply on a heavily populated and well serviced trail like the AT. I am 100% in the "take care of yourself" camp- but I think most of us can agree that if a bladder bursts, filter fails, or stove fuel runs out- it is not a life ending crisis on an AT thru. While I feel no pity for a SUL hiker with a 20L pack missing critical items- I got no issue with a Hiker in the 35-50L range who failed to carry all items in triplicate to avoid ever asking for help.

Now if they plan to stock a traveling bar that takes 30L of space and mix cocktails on trail- that is a compelling reason to carry this volume of pack.

While I'm not worried about "responsible" advice (not teasing you Mom!)- I do get concerned about stupid advice, especially from those who should know better. Before a fight starts; that comment is not directed at anyone in particular.

[Teacher & Snacktime]

I was in EMS the other day (SO done with REI) and trying on packs. It was the first time I actually got helpful (and appropriate) information. My ideal pack size is what Deuter would call a "weekender"....about 45L. This is what I've been toting for a while, but with a lower-quality, not-well-fitted pack. Anything larger would invite carrying too much for both my ability and need.

[4eyedbuzzard]

What is your sleep system? I can go under 35 liters if going to ground, but with a hammock I need closer to 40-45 liters with food. When are you starting, or finishing? A cold weather start or finish will require more volume for larger sleeping bag/quilt and clothing. How fast will you hike? Again, determines temps at both ends of the trail. How much cooking gear and what types of foods do you like? Bigger stove and pots, some foods, etc take more room than others. What about "luxury items"? Some take little to none, others take camp shoes, UL chair kits, mini lanterns, books, tablets, external batteries, cameras - the list is endless. Too many variables. But if I were to thru-hike it would be under 35 liters and sub 10 lbs base with a mid to late April NOBO start. Going lighter and faster with no more than 4 day resupply would be my plan.

[RED-DOG]

On my both my NoBo thru's i used a 45L pack they were the perfect size, I could fit all my gear in them comfortably, However on my 96 Flip-Flop i used a 60L pack which was way to big, Whatever pack size you choose it needs to fit your Torso an ill fitted pack can ruin a good hike.

[Just Bill]

I was in EMS the other day (SO done with REI) and trying on packs. It was the first time I actually got helpful (and appropriate) information. My ideal pack size is what Deuter would call a "weekender"....about 45L. This is what I've been toting for a while, but with a lower-quality, not-well-fitted pack. Anything larger would invite carrying too much for both my ability and need.

Teach-
I think you hit a good point- Big box and larger manufacturers sell packs to a "backpacker magazine" type crowd. Mainstream pack volumes and "common knowledge" are good for many folks who squeeze in a weekend a year but do little to help our community of folks.

A standard mainstream guide is more like this-
35L and under is daypack size.
35-50L is weekender or "light and fast"
50L-65L is considered multi-day
65L-80L is a trekking size (what mainstream wisdom considers thru-hiking)
80L+ is expedition size.

Even Osprey, who sells well with thru-hikers lists their packs very similarly, although they do cater more to something in between on the thru lines.

[max patch]

65L+ This pack is inappropriate for a thru-hike.

I carried an 82 Liter pack on my 5 month thru hike. Good thing I didn't know that my pack was inappropriate.

[msupple]

When I left on my AT hike my total pack weight was 24 lbs including 2 liters of water and enough food to reach Neals Gap. I carried an Osprey Atmos 65 with a hammock system which included an underquilt. It's been often stated here that if one carries a large pack the tendency is to fill it with unneeded crap. On that day I had the lightest total pack weight of all those staying at the Hiker Hostel. I don't use stuff bags for my sleeping bag or underquilt. I stuff them in there and let them expand and fill every crack and cranny in my pack. The Atmos 65 carried that load like a dream and it was sooo easy to pack up in the morning due to the ample volume. It's also large enough for my occasional winter backpacking trip. By being disciplined I've never felt the need for a smaller volume pack. I'd rather use a pack that's rated at a higher weight capacity than I need than one nearing the max load capacity.

Cat in the Hat

[Just Bill]

What is your sleep system? I can go under 35 liters if going to ground, but with a hammock I need closer to 40-45 liters with food. When are you starting, or finishing? A cold weather start or finish will require more volume for larger sleeping bag/quilt and clothing. How fast will you hike? Again, determines temps at both ends of the trail. How much cooking gear and what types of foods do you like? Bigger stove and pots, some foods, etc take more room than others. What about "luxury items"? Some take little to none, others take camp shoes, UL chair kits, mini lanterns, books, tablets, external batteries, cameras - the list is endless. Too many variables. But if I were to thru-hike it would be under 35 liters and sub 10 lbs base with a mid to late April NOBO start. Going lighter and faster with no more than 4 day resupply would be my plan.

Regardless of your answer to any of those questions- and no answer is right regarding style. I think 50L seems to be a decent dividing line between the extremes- 50L or less- bit faster/lighter/less luxury. 50L or more- little heavier/little slower/more extras. Regardless-you should have a base volume of some sort.
Sleep system or other style choices/luxury inclusions are fixed choices- they are determined before you leave.
Same with the rest of your stuff- if anything the typical long distance hiker will pare down volume- it's rare to see it grow.

Variables-
Your start or finish may be cold- but that is two months at best out of a six month trip.
You may start with 10-15L of food but finish each week with zero.
Even if you guess or split the difference and come up with an average, it should be halfway informed. Even my SUL packs have an expansion collar, this additional variable volume isn't new and nearly every pack manufacturer address the problem by allowing you to carry up to 1/3rd more volume.

A base volume should factor your style, gear selection, luxury items, 3-5 days food, and average weather (the middle 4 months not the extremes).
An expansion collar covers you when weather gets worse, resupply is longer, or you add something like a six pack or bag of tater chips for the heck of it.

Regardless of style or gear- in general- most folks plan for the worst case rather than the average case. On a weekend, worst case planning is okay. On a Thru- the law of averages should prevail.

[max patch]

I'd rather use a pack that's rated at a higher weight capacity than I need than one nearing the max load capacity.

Cat in the Hat

I agree with this. You'll never find me with crap tied to the outside of pack (except maybe wet socks to dry).

[Just Bill]

I carried an 82 Liter pack on my 5 month thru hike. Good thing I didn't know that my pack was inappropriate.

Were you happy with your choice?
Was it an informed one because you wanted to carry that volume?
Do you still carry a pack that size?
Do you honestly feel that an average hiker with average gear and luxury choices needs that much room, especially in light of modern materials and insulation?
Would you advise another hiker to buy that size pack and why?

Anything is possible, nothing wrong with an informed choice.

[Sierra2015]

I carried an 82 Liter pack on my 5 month thru hike. Good thing I didn't know that my pack was inappropriate.
It wasn't the size. It's how it spit out expletives at other packs.

Things like... "Hey flatly, go eat gear!" "Yo momma was a tartan bag and yo daddy a satchel!" "Yo hiker is soooooo ugly that when he goes to town he puts you over his head!"




...... Ignore me.

[Coffee]

I have the ULA Circuit which is a 68L pack as specified. However, the main body and extension collar is under 48L and I rarely have more than rain gear and pack cover in the front pocket. I like having that mesh pocket for additional gear if needed or to dry out wet gear. I feel like I have a <50L pack in terms of normal carrying capacity with some additional capacity for special situations. It is hard to compare pack volumes since it is not clear that all manufacturers are consistent in terms of how they measure things outside of the main pack body.

Nice thing about the Circuit is that it is good for nearly all conditions including carrying a bear canister and while clearly overkill for a weekend trip, if I let my sleeping bag remain loose I can fill the volume so that it carries well. I can't see myself needing a higher capacity pack, plan to use it on the CT this year and PCT next year.

[Slo-go'en]

I can go 45L in the summer when I don't need much in the way of clothes or a warm sleeping bag, even so one the main limitations is how much food will fit into it. I find 60-65L a better general size for spring/fall when you need a bulky warm layer and/or warmer bag and still have enough room for 4-5 days of food. Plus when you don't have to carry so much in mid summer, it can be chinched down enough so everything isn't in the bottom half.

[Just Bill]

I have the ULA Circuit which is a 68L pack as specified. However, the main body and extension collar is under 48L and I rarely have more than rain gear and pack cover in the front pocket. I like having that mesh pocket for additional gear if needed or to dry out wet gear. I feel like I have a <50L pack in terms of normal carrying capacity with some additional capacity for special situations. It is hard to compare pack volumes since it is not clear that all manufacturers are consistent in terms of how they measure things outside of the main pack body.

Nice thing about the Circuit is that it is good for nearly all conditions including carrying a bear canister and while clearly overkill for a weekend trip, if I let my sleeping bag remain loose I can fill the volume so that it carries well. I can't see myself needing a higher capacity pack, plan to use it on the CT this year and PCT next year.

Excellent example- agree on all points.

[Just Bill]

I can go 45L in the summer when I don't need much in the way of clothes or a warm sleeping bag, even so one the main limitations is how much food will fit into it. I find 60-65L a better general size for spring/fall when you need a bulky warm layer and/or warmer bag and still have enough room for 4-5 days of food. Plus when you don't have to carry so much in mid summer, it can be chinched down enough so everything isn't in the bottom half.

Says the fella who lives in NH, the area most folks carry heavy gear :). Are you secretly UL but hampered by your locale?:eek:
As the sayin goes- your summer is not my summer. (Although this winter my winter is worse than yours I think?) My late summer LT kit was very similar to my shoulder kit at home.

A flipside question for you Slo- When you leave the Northwoods do you find you carry less stuff or do you carry about the same?

[Rolls Kanardly]

I agree with this. You'll never find me with crap tied to the outside of pack (except maybe wet socks to dry).
Why does it matter if some of your stuff is on the outside of your pack? Is this a personal choice or is there a reason to put everything inside? Rolls

[map man]

When I left on my AT hike my total pack weight was 24 lbs including 2 liters of water and enough food to reach Neals Gap. I carried an Osprey Atmos 65 with a hammock system which included an underquilt. It's been often stated here that if one carries a large pack the tendency is to fill it with unneeded crap. On that day I had the lightest total pack weight of all those staying at the Hiker Hostel. I don't use stuff bags for my sleeping bag or underquilt. I stuff them in there and let them expand and fill every crack and cranny in my pack. The Atmos 65 carried that load like a dream and it was sooo easy to pack up in the morning due to the ample volume. It's also large enough for my occasional winter backpacking trip. By being disciplined I've never felt the need for a smaller volume pack. I'd rather use a pack that's rated at a higher weight capacity than I need than one nearing the max load capacity.

Cat in the Hat

I agree with this completely and I think this is one of the most perceptive posts I've seen on the subject of pack size here at WB. I carry a 65L external frame with a 5L front pack (the LuxuryLite system) and I too don't have to compress stuff like sleeping bag and insulated jacket if I don't want to -- and I don't think it takes all that much discipline to avoid accumulating weighty non-essentials just because there is room in the pack for it.

[max patch]

Would you advise another hiker to buy that size pack and why?



I think you are putting the cart before the horse when you try to figure out first what size pack to buy.

My advise to the prospective thru would be to buy all his stuff and THEN buy the bag that it all fits in.

[lonehiker]

I think you are putting the cart before the horse when you try to figure out first what size pack to buy.

My advise to the prospective thru would be to buy all his stuff and THEN buy the bag that it all fits in.

I agree with this opinion. I can't vote in your poll however because all I know is cubic inches.

[max patch]

I agree with this opinion. I can't vote in your poll however because all I know is cubic inches.

Google will convert all types of measurements for you.

For example if you type in the search bar:

65 liters = cubic inches

the first answer will be:

3966.54

[Slo-go'en]

A flipside question for you Slo- When you leave the Northwoods do you find you carry less stuff or do you carry about the same?

It all depends on where, when and how long. That's why I own like 6 different packs :) The only time I can go daypack size is mid summer for an overnight and be confident it isn't going to rain. Then I can go real minumualist and show up the weekend warriors struggling to climb up the hill with thier 40 pound weekend loads. A subway sub for dinner and a honey bun for breakfist - what more do you need on an overnighter?

I'm planning on hiking most of Virgina starting 3d week of May and will be using a 45 L pack. I'm counting on it being pretty warm when I start and getting hotter every day, so will skimp on clothes I would normally carry earlier or later in the season which reduces the bulk, if not so much the weight. My 65 L pack is only 4 oz heavier, so there isn't much weight penality there, its just that the smaller pack is more convenient when traveling to and from the trail.

I also dislike lashing things to the outside of the pack. The only thing I carry outside is my water bottles. Lashing things outside upsets the center of gravity and are really annoying if they swing or bounce around (think camp shoes). Stuff outside the pack also makes using a pack cover more difficult.

But for a thru hike and only using one pack which needs to carry early spring, summer and fall loads, I still say 60-65L is optimum. If you go bigger you got too much stuff and if you go smaller, you don't have enough.

[Just Bill]

I think you are putting the cart before the horse when you try to figure out first what size pack to buy.

My advise to the prospective thru would be to buy all his stuff and THEN buy the bag that it all fits in.

On that Max, we couldn't agree more.

[Just Bill]

I agree with this completely and I think this is one of the most perceptive posts I've seen on the subject of pack size here at WB. I carry a 65L external frame with a 5L front pack (the LuxuryLite system) and I too don't have to compress stuff like sleeping bag and insulated jacket if I don't want to -- and I don't think it takes all that much discipline to avoid accumulating weighty non-essentials just because there is room in the pack for it.

Map Man-you and Cat in the hat got me thinking a little outside my box.
It would not be fair to say that a frameless UL pack could be over packed for long. However, if you want a full frame you can definitely under pack a good internal like the Osprey or your pack. A fair point to make. I agree very much with the idea of getting the frame you want. I personally am a bit jaded by my experience at ending up at either extreme (UL or hero dad/guide) but if the goal is to provide some general guidance?

I would like to ask the following question - especially of those who use the Osprey Atmos, which I consider to be one of the finest full frame packs around. Does your pack actually have the advertised volume? Pack volume is very subjective.

RN-PCT15 posted above about the high volume listed for the Catalyst, but was quick to point out that it is actually a sub 50L pack with options.

I have said so in another post- the Osprey Atmos 65L is one of the best pack frames around (provided it fits you)- but I wouldn’t call it a 65L pack really. If you go by the listed dimensions it’s 80L by the numbers if you made it a cube, but without packing peanuts I wouldn’t challenge their number much. Most of us own multiple packs, but if you had to recommend only one? Does the Osprey Atmos 65L fit the bill?

I think it fits the average hiker much better than many UL options, but still toes the line regarding weight (or at least isn’t a massive compromise) like other full frame packs are. It weighs about 3 ¼ pounds, but removing the hood and a few extras can take it to 2 ¼ pounds for a very nice 50L pack with a great suspension. I think it’s one of the best mainstream packs around, and as mentioned, if needed you could carry 40-50lbs if you had to. And coupled with discipline- as the extra volume on a pack like this adds little weight penalty in the form of slightly more fabric what’s the harm in the extra room?

Is a full frame, sub 3lb, 40-50lb capable, 65L or less pack the best single pack? Is the Osprey Atmos 65L that pack?