View Full Version : Shelter Enforcement
macattack
02-19-2014, 19:17
So as I've heard, there exists the convoluded rule of thru-hikers having to give up shelter space for non-thru hikers, but if there is space in the shelter they must stay in the shelter. My thru-hike starts on 3/13 and it just so happens that I prefer tenting 98% of the time. Does anybody know how strict actual enforcement of this rule is? Will a ranger come make me take my tent down if there is one bunk space available in a shelter?
Mr. Allen
02-19-2014, 19:18
No way man , sleep where you want
kayak karl
02-19-2014, 19:21
No way man , sleep where you want you will get ticketed, but hey, sleep where you want.
max patch
02-19-2014, 19:25
So as I've heard, there exists the convoluded rule of thru-hikers having to give up shelter space for non-thru hikers, but if there is space in the shelter they must stay in the shelter. My thru-hike starts on 3/13 and it just so happens that I prefer tenting 98% of the time. Does anybody know how strict actual enforcement of this rule is? Will a ranger come make me take my tent down if there is one bunk space available in a shelter?
IF a ranger catches you then YES its off to the shelter for you. And depending upon the mood of the ranger he can issue you a ticket thats gonna set ya back several hundred dollars.
I think if you CHOOSE to hike thru the GSMNP then you have an obligation to follow the rules.
Just to clarify, it is not thru hiker vs. non thru hiker, it is hiker with reservation vs. hiker without reservation. Thru hikers can get a regular back country permit and reserve shelter space if they want, don't know why they would, but they can.
Sierra2015
02-19-2014, 19:43
This is only at a specific part of the trail, right? When the trail passed through GSMNP. Right?
In 07 I had a good conversation with a GSMNP ranger. I was talking about the hike from Georgia to that point and it came up that I rarely sleep in shelters, but yes I had been using them in the park. He told me about the negative comments and attitude that he sometimes receives from hikers told to move from their tent to a shelter, who act as if he personally made the rule and was infringing on their entitlements. Just before we left, he told me that he was the only ranger I'd see south of Clingman's Dome and since he was going the other direction no one would be at the next shelter to tell me I couldn't camp (wink-wink).
Lone Wolf
02-19-2014, 21:48
So as I've heard, there exists the convoluded rule of thru-hikers having to give up shelter space for non-thru hikers, but if there is space in the shelter they must stay in the shelter. My thru-hike starts on 3/13 and it just so happens that I prefer tenting 98% of the time. Does anybody know how strict actual enforcement of this rule is? Will a ranger come make me take my tent down if there is one bunk space available in a shelter?
not strict at all
MuddyWaters
02-19-2014, 22:19
Im pretty sure convoluded is not a word.
There is not a great deal of tent space around some shelters in the GSMNP anyway.
macattack
02-19-2014, 22:39
This is what I suspected may have been the case
macattack
02-19-2014, 22:40
Would you take convoluted?
STINGER1
02-19-2014, 23:01
Hiked in 2012. Never stayed in a shelter. It's not a problem. There's always a spot for a tent or three around the shelters. In The Whites the best tent spots where just before or after the huts. Have fun!
HooKooDooKu
02-19-2014, 23:20
I would like to point out that staying in a GSMNP Shelter when space allows isn't just simply a "rule", but is a Federal Law. This law can be found on page 11 of the Compendium (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/upload/Compendium-2013.pdf)of Laws & Policies (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm) governing the GSMNP.
Item #4 of White Blazes usage agreement states that Discussions involving how to commit illegal acts...are forbidden.
cliffdiver
02-20-2014, 00:00
It's a simple rule, really. 4 spots in each 12 man shelter are reserved for thru-hikers. (weather events may increase the number that can fit) As long as there are no other hikers with reservations, all thru-hikers up to 12 must stay inside. Otherwise, you tent or hammock in the immediate area. The rangers have the discretion to escort you off park property in addition to fines and court costs if caught stealth camping or being a nuisance.
The GSNP has more visitors than any other national park on the East coast. The fee's and restrictions are to help minimize the impact of thousands upon thousands of backpackers using the trail.
Valley Girl
02-20-2014, 01:35
I had called the Park and spoke to a Ranger and asked if I had to stay in a shelter as a thru hiker. The Ranger said thru hikers can tent, non thru hikers must use shelters. So did I miss something?
edit:
Your right bfayer it was a backcountry permit for thru hikers.
HooKooDooKu
02-20-2014, 01:55
I had called the Park and spoke to a Ranger and asked if I had to stay in a shelter as a thru hiker. The Ranger said thru hikers can tent, non thru hikers must use shelters. So did I miss something?
Yea, the part of the rules that says thru hikers can tent at shelters ONLY if the shelter is full.
You can find this rule on the AT Thru-Hiker Backcountry Permit (https://smokiespermits.nps.gov/index.cfm?BCPermitTypeID=2) website (7th bullet point) as well as the previous Compendium I referenced (and written rules will trump incomplete instructions given over the phone).
The GSNP has more visitors than any other national park on the East coast. The fee's and restrictions are to help minimize the impact of thousands upon thousands of backpackers using the trail.
GSMNP is THE most visited National Park in the National Parks System.
Also, I think the OP was not clear as to if they were referring to only the GSMNP park rules or they were referring to shelters throughout the entire AT. When I read it I took it to mean all shelters. So to clarify, is the post only referring to GSMNP? I have no intention of sleeping in those shelters if I can help it. I'm sleeping in my tent unless the situation prevents it. Such as if certain parks prohibit sleeping in a tent then I guess I will not have a choice.
HooKooDooKu
02-20-2014, 03:03
I think the OP was not clear as to if they were referring to only the GSMNP park rules or they were referring to shelters throughout the entire AT.
Since the OP posted within the "Great Smoky Mountains" sub-forum, I would assume we're only talking about shelter rules that apply inside GSMNP.
From what I understand, along the bulk of the AT, you can setup a tent pretty much anywhere (out of the way) along the AT. You're not limited to shelter sites, and there's usually no specific rules about shelter (other than 'first-come-first served).
But within GSMNP, you can only camp at designated camp sites and you must possess a back country permit. This goes not just for AT thru-hikers, but ANYONE staying in the GSMNP back country.
What might confuse some people is that the rules for a thru-hiker are just a little different than for a general back packer.
Each campsite has a limited number of spots available. A general backpacker is required to reserve each spot for each given night they want to utilize the back country.
But things are not so rigorous for thru-hikers. Rather than requiring thru-hikers to commit to specific shelters for specific nights, the park service holds about 3 or 4 of the available spots at each shelter along the AT. But of course such a system runs the risk that occasionally more AT thru-hikers will show up than space has been reserved for. Thus was born the rule about thru-hikers being allowed to tent when shelters are full.
The park service requires at-thru hikers to utilize shelters when possible to minimize the impact hikers have on the back country.
BTW, park rules treat hammocks like a tent. So hangers don't get to escape the 'use the shelter if space is available' rule.
'Does anybody know how strict actual enforcement of this rule is?' That question sounds very similar to "if I knowingly break the rules will I be caught?' I hear machetes are being issued to every Ranger this yr with the order to cut off the male genitalia of every male law breaker. You don't want to know what they are ordered to do to female lawbreakers. :)
Sierra2015
02-20-2014, 03:38
'Does anybody know how strict actual enforcement of this rule is?' That question sounds very similar to "if I knowingly break the rules will I be caught?' I hear machetes are being issued to every Ranger this yr with the order to cut off the male genitalia of every male law breaker. You don't want to know what they are ordered to do to female lawbreakers. :)
... Feeling aggressive tonight?
4eyedbuzzard
02-20-2014, 05:17
Dogwood, less coffee perhaps?
Hill Ape
02-20-2014, 06:10
why does this topic come up at least every two weeks? jeez people, some of you act like the rangers are naive, and have never seen thru hikers or their tactics. why the constant drive to game the system? i think there needs to be an article on the topic, let lone wolf and dogwood write it, that way the appropriate attitude will be communicated.
get your permits, plan to stay in the reserved shelter space like good little boys and girls. but have a back up plan, only in case the shelter is full. do you really want to put yourself into the situation where the word "enforcement" even comes into play?
if you stay in a donation hostel, pay $20 like good big boys and girls. do some house chores too, like mommy taught you.
there is no free meal, even blue berry pancakes. hike your own hike, and carry your own weight. don't be a leech, contribute.
pack it in, pack it out, and maybe a little extra for good measure. thats giving back. if you know better, do better.
+1 Hill Ape!
Why risk fines? If a person is planning to hike the entire trail, the GSMNP is only going to be 3 or 4 nights of a trip where they could tent for the rest of the 120+ miles. Get off at Gatlinburg, chill out for a night at the Grand Prix, decompress and then carry on your merry way.
+1 Hill Ape!
Why risk fines? If a person is planning to hike the entire trail, the GSMNP is only going to be 3 or 4 nights of a trip where they could tent for the rest of the 120+ miles. Get off at Gatlinburg, chill out for a night at the Grand Prix, decompress and then carry on your merry way.
I also agree with Hill Ape, but I want to add that It's not about a thru hiker risking fines, it's about a thru hiker forcing a non thru hiker to risk fines.
If a thru hiker without a reservation does not give up their space to a non thru hiker with a reservation, the non thru hiker is the one that ends up sleeping in the tent, which they are not allowed to do. This puts the non thru hiker with the reservation at risk of getting fined or kicked out of the park.
Some folks may not care if they break the rules and are willing to take the risk of getting fined, that is their decision, but does anyone on here think it's okay to put other folks at risk of getting fined? Especially when the other guy has done their best to follow the rules?
I would hope not.
Drybones
02-20-2014, 09:02
Interesting how complicated walking a foot path has become.
HikerMom58
02-20-2014, 09:13
Interesting how complicated walking a foot path has become.
C'mon Spring............:D
The hiking class of 2014 has started in GA. FB is slammed with pics & details of departures for Springer mOuntain. We are stuck here. :o
Slo-go'en
02-20-2014, 10:34
The thing is, once you get into the Smokies and it's cold and raining, staying in the shelter suddenly looks much more attractive then being a tent set up over a field of dung.
Seatbelt
02-20-2014, 10:53
Just hike with a large group of hikers thru the smokies so that somebody has to tent for lack of space.
Rain Man
02-20-2014, 11:22
not strict at all
Nor convoluted at all.
Rain Man
.
Rain Man
02-20-2014, 11:24
Some folks may not care if they break the rules and are willing to take the risk of getting fined, that is their decision, but does anyone on here think it's okay to put other folks at risk of getting fined? Especially when the other guy has done their best to follow the rules? I would hope not.
It is amazing how "entitled" some hikers feel, how much they feel that rules are for lesser mortals, indeed.
Rain Man
.
It is amazing how "entitled" some hikers feel, how much they feel that rules are for lesser mortals, indeed.
thats been the theme of the weekly "how can i tent at a shelter in the smokies" threads as of late........
thats been the theme of the weekly "how can i tent at a shelter in the smokies" threads as of late........
If it is legally done by long distance hikers, I don't think that is a bad thing. I had a friend who would get to the shelter later on purpose just so he could tent legally.
I don't think that is necessarily entitled or even a loop hole.
Valley Girl
02-20-2014, 12:18
I wouldn't mind a shelter but I know others will not appreciate sleeping with me and my hiking buddy, so I asked with the intent of being courteous to others. Thanks Hookoo for making it clearer. Heck I could have spoken to a janitor for all I know when I called;)
'Does anybody know how strict actual enforcement of this rule is?' That question sounds very similar to "if I knowingly break the rules will I be caught?' I hear machetes are being issued to every Ranger this yr with the order to cut off the male genitalia of every male law breaker. You don't want to know what they are ordered to do to female lawbreakers. :)
Glad i just tuned in. this oughta get pretty interesting from here on out i imagine. Back to my lurk position now :)
Hill Ape
02-20-2014, 13:28
i think this is a symptom of another phenomena manamana doot doo da doot doo. people that are new to hiking sit around and think about every possible little detail and what if scenario, and try to solve it on their couch. really folks, don't sweat it. so much just simply works itself out on the trail. scrape together a big pile of money. make decent choices on the big ticket gear items. and just go hike. let the trail guide you, not only in how you hike but in how you think about what "problems" you'll face out there. sort of a don't sweat the small stuff approach
The thing is, once you get into the Smokies and it's cold and raining, staying in the shelter suddenly looks much more attractive then being a tent set up over a field of dung.
Good point, I prefer my tent, but when it was in the teens with snow and ice, that shelter with a fireplace was a lot more appealing. :)
Tennessee Viking
02-20-2014, 14:42
Yes..these are the rules of the Smokies.
- All thru-hikers must stay in and fill up the shelters before tenting is permitted.
- Thru-hikers must give up the shelter to small distance hikers.
Its a policy to reduce camping damage to the grounds around shelters.
The easiest thing to is hang back at the shelter, and let other hikers take up the shelter first.
Glad i just tuned in. this oughta get pretty interesting from here on out i imagine. Back to my lurk position now :)
Gee whiz macattack. Next time why don't you just go shoot Archduke Ferdinand or something.
Yes..these are the rules of the Smokies.
- All hikers must stay in and fill up the shelters before tenting is permitted.
- Thru-hikers must give up the shelter to small distance hikers....
Just to keep things clear for everyone, "small distance hikers" are never allowed to tent at shelters. I point this out because of your first bullet above, not that it's wrong (it isn't), its just not complete.
If you have a "short distance hiker" reservation and you show up and the shelter is full, you still cannot tent at shelters, either someone leaves the shelter or you are SOL according to the back country rules.
http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
Please note #7: "Backcountry permit holders may not use tents at shelters."
Also this note: "Backpackers and hikers are expected to follow all park regulations (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm). Failure to do so may result in a fine of up to $5,000 per violation and/or 6 months in jail."
All this adds up to is that thru hikers get the privilege of not needing to reserve shelter or camping space, but they take on the responsibility to ensure they don't take up space that others have reserved. I think that is a fair trade.
Pedaling Fool
02-20-2014, 15:05
So as I've heard, there exists the convoluded rule of thru-hikers having to give up shelter space for non-thru hikers, but if there is space in the shelter they must stay in the shelter. My thru-hike starts on 3/13 and it just so happens that I prefer tenting 98% of the time. Does anybody know how strict actual enforcement of this rule is? Will a ranger come make me take my tent down if there is one bunk space available in a shelter?
My experience is that the shelters will be full by the time you get there. Whenever I got to a shelter, I just didn't claim a spot in the shelter and eventually it was full and I had to set up my tent.
"Backpackers and hikers are expected to follow all park regulations (http://www.nps.gov/grsm/parkmgmt/lawsandpolicies.htm). Failure to do so may result in a fine of up to $5,000 per violation and/or 6 months in jail."
I'm guessing I would also be deported back to Canada.
Good thing I'm not going to break any of the park regulations!
I'm guessing I would also be deported back to Canada.
Good thing I'm not going to break any of the park regulations!
No deportations :) the law just gives the rangers a big stick because so many folks in the past have pushed their limits. Every single NPS ranger I have ever dealt with was more interested in making sure folks were safe and having an enjoyable time in the park, than nit-picking the rules just so they could ticket someone.
By the way I have relatives in London, if you have to get deported, there are a lot worse places to be sent back to :)
Hill Ape
02-20-2014, 15:32
I'm guessing I would also be deported back to Canada.
Good thing I'm not going to break any of the park regulations!
no no, we only want to get rid of the beibs. we try to keep the pretty girls.
lonehiker
02-20-2014, 15:40
The relatives in London part confuses me.
Hill Ape
02-20-2014, 15:43
The relatives in London part confuses me.
london ontario, not london england
The relatives in London part confuses me.
See Hill Ape's comment ^ :)
that rule Only exists in the GSMNP, every place else is first come first serve, You can hang around and wait until the shelter gets full then you are allowed to use your tent, Problem Solved.
lonehiker
02-20-2014, 15:48
Not confused any longer.
macattack
02-20-2014, 17:05
Gee whiz macattack. Next time why don't you just go shoot Archduke Ferdinand or something.
Based on the threats of court action that have been leveled against me, I probably would have gotten off easier starting WW1
why does this topic come up at least every two weeks? jeez people, some of you act like the rangers are naive, and have never seen thru hikers or their tactics. why the constant drive to game the system? i think there needs to be an article on the topic, let lone wolf and dogwood write it, that way the appropriate attitude will be communicated.
get your permits, plan to stay in the reserved shelter space like good little boys and girls. but have a back up plan, only in case the shelter is full. do you really want to put yourself into the situation where the word "enforcement" even comes into play?
if you stay in a donation hostel, pay $20 like good big boys and girls. do some house chores too, like mommy taught you.
there is no free meal, even blue berry pancakes. hike your own hike, and carry your own weight. don't be a leech, contribute.
pack it in, pack it out, and maybe a little extra for good measure. thats giving back. if you know better, do better.
"...jeez people, some of you act like the rangers are naive, and have never seen thru hikers or their tactics. why the constant drive to game the system?" So I'm not the only one who notices it. What I'm even more concerned about is IMO it's increasing or more are thinking about it and asking specific questions on how to do it. If I'm right and that trend continues where do you think that leads? possibly greater law enforcement efforts? more legislation/permitting pertaining to hiking? different trail culture/community? Personally, I would rather speak up and say something possibly in some way assisting in shaping hiking community attitudes and norms so gov't doesn't feel the need for increasingly greater involvement - "enforcement."
It isn't that difficult to legally hike the AT!
gollwoods
02-22-2014, 02:39
whether true or not I heard that at one time there would be large groups of people just showing up at shelters nearer the roads so you could have 10 or more tents with lots of activity around shelters like people do at campgrounds, if this were the case what would you expect the park to do about it...I've seen 25 or more people at shelters still.
I'm guessing I would also be deported back to Canada.
Good thing I'm not going to break any of the park regulations!
If you offer that smile and agree to sign up for the Affordable Care Act will let ya stay. :)
No deportations :) the law just gives the rangers a big stick because so many folks in the past have pushed their limits. Every single NPS ranger I have ever dealt with was more interested in making sure folks were safe and having an enjoyable time in the park, than nit-picking the rules just so they could ticket someone...
Thank you. +1 Be a jerk, probably get treated like a jerk.
4eyedbuzzard
02-22-2014, 03:57
No deportations :) the law just gives the rangers a big stick because so many folks in the past have pushed their limits. Every single NPS ranger I have ever dealt with was more interested in making sure folks were safe and having an enjoyable time in the park, than nit-picking the rules just so they could ticket someone.
By the way I have relatives in London, if you have to get deported, there are a lot worse places to be sent back to :)
Thank you. +1 Be a jerk, probably get treated like a jerk.
I think it's treated a lot like the "no alcohol" rules in many state run parks. If you keep it covered in a cozy or mug, nothing is going to happen. It gives authorities a legal reason to kick out people who are being jerks.
Drybones
02-22-2014, 10:49
No deportations :) the law just gives the rangers a big stick because so many folks in the past have pushed their limits. Every single NPS ranger I have ever dealt with was more interested in making sure folks were safe and having an enjoyable time in the park, than nit-picking the rules just so they could ticket someone.
By the way I have relatives in London, if you have to get deported, there are a lot worse places to be sent back to :)
For the most part I agree with this, but, there's always got to be one on a power trip. SNP opened the day before I hiked through it so there was no issue for me but talking to others who had to hike it closed they said some rangers turned the other way while some were hunting hard for hikers to hassle.
CarlZ993
02-22-2014, 11:17
I'm guessing I would also be deported back to Canada.
Good thing I'm not going to break any of the park regulations!
Well... if the US had beaten Canada in hockey @ the Olympics, maybe they would have cut you some slack. But since they didn't...... :)
CarlZ993
02-22-2014, 11:24
On a serious note, I stayed @ 3 shelters going thru the Smokeys (early April). Only one was completely full (Tri-corner Knob). At one shelter, there was a Ridgerunner staying there for the night. He told me that his position in the shelter would count as one of the thru-hiker slots. So, there were only 3 thru-hiker slots available there. It wasn't an issue. That shelter (Russell Field) didn't fill up & everyone wanted to get out of the rain & cold that night.
lonehiker
02-22-2014, 12:16
For the most part I agree with this, but, there's always got to be one on a power trip. SNP opened the day before I hiked through it so there was no issue for me but talking to others who had to hike it closed they said some rangers turned the other way while some were hunting hard for hikers to hassle.
I'm sure rangers wake up in the morning thinking how many hikers can I hassle today..... Be a little different if we actually expected them to enforce the rule/regulations/laws that we hired them to enforce. Nah, I would rather just pay them to hassle hikers.....
For the most part I agree with this, but, there's always got to be one on a power trip. SNP opened the day before I hiked through it so there was no issue for me but talking to others who had to hike it closed they said some rangers turned the other way while some were hunting hard for hikers to hassle.
I fail to see how doing the Job they are paid to do is "hassling" hikers or being on a power trip. If the park is closed it's closed and it's not the rangers that decided to close it. Give the guys a break, they are doing their job, not hassling folks.
kayak karl
02-22-2014, 12:44
whether true or not I heard that at one time there would be large groups of people just showing up at shelters nearer the roads so you could have 10 or more tents with lots of activity around shelters like people do at campgrounds, if this were the case what would you expect the park to do about it...I've seen 25 or more people at shelters still. this happens in the smokies? ive seen it other places.
Who is going to find you if you set up your tent just before dark and leave at dawn? I never saw a ranger in the smokies and the two ridge runners I encountered were stopped for the night at a shelter well before dark...and they both told me which way they were headed and where they planned to spend the next few nights. And neither ridge runner I encountered had the backbone to enforce anything...they made halfhearted attempts to 'educate' people on leave no trace but when they refused to take the advice the ridge runner didn't do anything more to stop it. One even told people they could camp if they wanted even though the shelter was less than half full.
Alligator
02-22-2014, 15:15
Closed per #4 of the user agreement http://whiteblaze.net/cmps.php?page=agreement