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View Full Version : considering building a shelter, your thoughs on design,location,liability and so on..



sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 11:01
hello everyone,
For a long time now, i guess about the 18 years we've been here, I've had the notion to build a shelter for the hikers that pass by my property. My family and I live about as close as one can live to the trail and have often thought about being more involved with it. I was thinking about ideas for a shelter's design and related concerns. If you, the hiker, could have an input as to how a shelter is located,designed,constructed,positioned and so on what would they be? Also are there any unforeseen issues with a shelter on private land along the AT? Would i be getting into something I'd come to regret? Can I control who uses it? Will it become a party spot for the locals and be trash all the time? I'm located north of the Roan Highlands section of the trail across US19E, about a 20-25 min hike I'm guessing. Is this a good location for a shelter or will it just be passed by due to the distance from other shelters? Can I blue blaze the spot one would turn off the main trail? Should i put it as close as i can to the trail or further away to better monitor it. The further away location has a well,power and a great view does this matter? Another spot I have is more level and has a bigger area for camping, things to consider. I also have a place where people could park about 5 min hike to the trail, is this a good idea? Would I be inviting trouble in the form of some type of liability either from personal injury or property damage? Can I have a "disclaimer" sign to avoid such liabilities that will hold up in court? I'll post more questions and concerns as they come to me. Your thoughts please, thanks

Rain Man
02-20-2014, 11:28
I applaud your intentions! May they work out well for all concerned. Are you familiar with the "Secret Shelter" in New Jersey? A past thru-hiker (name of Murray) did just what you are thinking of. I stayed there last October, in fact.

I'd recommend you get in touch with him and ask for advice. Two things he provides that I really appreciated are (1) electricity, and (2) a warm shower, albeit outdoor on the side of a building.

Rain Man

.

Feral Bill
02-20-2014, 11:29
You need to talk to a local lawyer.

HooKooDooKu
02-20-2014, 11:46
You need to talk to a local lawyer.
And your insurance agent.

bfayer
02-20-2014, 12:02
I applaud your interest in this too :clap

Other than the obvious issues with liability and maybe a small minority of folks that would abuse and tear up the place. I would be concerned about the long term effects on property rights.

When I lived in southern VA, there was a guy that owned property on a river, he let folks drive down to the river and launch their boats, did it for years as I understand it. A new owner bought the place and put up a gate. The folks with the boats were not happy and it went to court, the judge ruled that the drive way and boat launch were a "public easement" even though it was not on the deed. Would that apply to your situation? I have no idea, but I do think you should talk to a local lawyer about it.

Good luck with your project.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 12:22
I applaud your intentions! May they work out well for all concerned. Are you familiar with the "Secret Shelter" in New Jersey? A past thru-hiker (name of Murray) did just what you are thinking of. I stayed there last October, in fact.

I'd recommend you get in touch with him and ask for advice. Two things he provides that I really appreciated are (1) electricity, and (2) a warm shower, albeit outdoor on the side of a building.

Rain Man

.

As much as i hate talking to lawyers i sorta figured as much. As to power and a hot shower, the previous land owner installed power,a well and sewer system for a camper he had up there so it's doable on the further away site. Would just be an issue of sustain cost. The shelter cost is more of a one time thing, with some minor maintenance over time. I'm looking at energy cost for a hot water now, looks like $30 - $50 a month depending on wattage and price for kilowatt hour. If it were to become a popular place i'd bet donation would cover most of it. Now in the summer I could have a big water barrel with a float valve sitting in the sunshine up hill from the shelter or over a shower stall. Supply it with a water hose also in the sunshine, letting mother nature help where she can. Would be interesting :-)

Lone Wolf
02-20-2014, 12:28
not a good idea. between 19E and Dennis Cove rd. there are 4 hostels

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 12:29
it's interesting you bring up this point, back in end of 1999 we had to sell an easement to the USFS for the trail itself. About 13 acres are now under this easement, we still own the land but it now has restrictions on it's future usage, mainly relating to the development of housing/structures as well as other stuff like open face mining and junk yards, stuff of this nature.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 12:30
where are these hostels? how close to the trail are they?

Teacher & Snacktime
02-20-2014, 12:33
If you're planning on being a onsite caretaker (i.e. hall monitor), I think it's a wonderful idea. If not, I'd fear you'd learn the true meaning of "no good deed goes unpunished" in terms of liability.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 12:34
OK i know of one near Dennis cove and one on 19E, where are the other 2?

bfayer
02-20-2014, 12:35
The other thing I was thinking is "How close to a public road is this" In my experience the "abuse factor" goes up in direct proportion to the distance from public road access. I don't think your intent is to create a local hangout for bored high school kids, but if you are close to road access...

Lone Wolf
02-20-2014, 12:36
where are these hostels? how close to the trail are they?Mtn. Harbor, Abby's Place, Kincora and the other one on dennis cove rd.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 12:37
well darn lookin a bit like this https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/videogames/detail-page/combat.wings.ww2.04.lg.jpg

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 12:38
wheres abby's place?

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 12:41
The other thing I was thinking is "How close to a public road is this" In my experience the "abuse factor" goes up in direct proportion to the distance from public road access. I don't think your intent is to create a local hangout for bored high school kids, but if you are close to road access...

it can be a good ways from a public road with little to no access via car, only really by good 4WD or ATV on a private road,

Lone Wolf
02-20-2014, 12:43
wheres abby's place?

somewhere between 19E and Dennis Cove

bfayer
02-20-2014, 12:48
well darn lookin a bit like this https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/G/01/videogames/detail-page/combat.wings.ww2.04.lg.jpg

I wouldn't go that far. What about some other options other than a shelter. I don't think the shower is a bad idea if you have the time to maintain it, not everybody stops at hostels and a hot shower would probably be welcome if it's not far off the trial.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 12:53
this place http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=223240 interesting

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 12:54
I wouldn't go that far. What about some other options other than a shelter. I don't think the shower is a bad idea if you have the time to maintain it, not everybody stops at hostels and a hot shower would probably be welcome if it's not far off the trial.

could start with a barrel shower and camp sites easily

Don H
02-20-2014, 12:59
You would have to get permission to blue blaze a trail. I know two people who told me they tried and were denied.
One was Sharon who does shuttles in the Front Royal area. Her home is right off the trail and I believe her husband was at one time president of the PATC. The other is the Harpers Ferry hostel but that was federal land along the C&O Canal which is also the AT. The feds wouldn't let them put a sign or blaze to direct people across the canal to the road.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 13:02
somewhere between 19E and Dennis Cove

ok found this one Laurel Fork Lodge Dennis Cove Road, TN

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 13:07
You would have to get permission to blue blaze a trail. I know two people who told me they tried and were denied.
One was Sharon who does shuttles in the Front Royal area. Her home is right off the trail and I believe her husband was at one time president of the PATC. The other is the Harpers Ferry hostel but that was federal land along the C&O Canal which is also the AT. The feds wouldn't let them put a sign or blaze to direct people across the canal to the road.

Now here's the thing, you can easily look from the trail on to my property, only like 200 feet from the trail to the property line. I can blue blaze from the to where ever im sure. Surely if im allowed to post the boundary I could post it with big blue blazes :-)

Jeff
02-20-2014, 13:17
Another option is to speak with Bob Peoples, proprietor of Kincora Hostel. I am sure he would be a wealth of information.

His phone 423-725-4409

RED-DOG
02-20-2014, 13:18
I diffentanty wouldn't build a shelter, a campsite instead like a few tent Platforms and a solar shower.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 13:24
seems this is being allowed along the trail http://www.flickr.com/photos/bltadventure/3081927755/

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 13:25
Another option is to speak with Bob Peoples, proprietor of Kincora Hostel. I am sure he would be a wealth of information.

His phone 423-725-4409

yes we met once along time ago, thanks for the info?

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 13:25
I diffentanty wouldn't build a shelter, a campsite instead like a few tent Platforms and a solar shower.

so why not a shelter?

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 13:28
I diffentanty wouldn't build a shelter, a campsite instead like a few tent Platforms and a solar shower.

a tent platform meaning what exactly, a flat spot?

max patch
02-20-2014, 13:32
Back in the day many shelters were built right next to or extremely close to forest service roads and trail heads to facilitate getting materials to the site. There is a reason many of these shelters have since been relocated or removed.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 13:51
Back in the day many shelters were built right next to or extremely close to forest service roads and trail heads to facilitate getting materials to the site. There is a reason many of these shelters have since been relocated or removed.

i can imagine, when i first moved here there was a tale about some shelter near by that was burned down be the disgruntled local element. So how do they get the materials in now, pack it all? Air drop? lol

Drybones
02-20-2014, 13:57
The first law of Murphy: "no good deed goes unpunished".

Slo-go'en
02-20-2014, 14:08
So, your family owns the old farm field you climb up the side of to the top of the ridge where the big, solitary tree is and at the top of the climb is a dirt road which the trail follows for a little while? I love the view from there back to the humps.

Since the Apple house shelter has been removed, having a "secret shelter" up on top of that hill would be great. Since the FS only has an easement for the AT on your land, I don't see where having an unmarked side trail to your little shelter would be a problem. And if you did keep the shelter secret, being only known in the hiker guides or word of mouth, the chances of the local kids learning about it is greatly reduced, especially if it is a stiff hike up that hill to get to it.

I belive there are rules in place to allow public access to your land which still protects you, often this is done to allow hunting and hiking on private land.

Tent platforms are simple wood platforms rised off the ground. This is usually done if the area is uneven or rocky and making good tent sites isn't practical. You could start with a platform and eventually add walls and a roof. A friend of mine built a tent platform on some property he owned and eventually built a nice litte cabin around it.

Would this be the view from the top of that field?
26022

max patch
02-20-2014, 14:13
So how do they get the materials in now, pack it all? Air drop? lol

The Stover Creek shelter in GA which was built approx 5 years ago had the materials helicoptered in.

When the Blood Mtn Shelter was renovated a few years ago they used pack horses as the shelter is in a wilderness area and anything motorized could not be used.

max patch
02-20-2014, 14:15
And if you did keep the shelter secret, being only known in the hiker guides or word of mouth, the chances of the local kids learning about it is greatly reduced, especially if it is a stiff hike up that hill to get to it.



I disagree with that. I think its just a matter of time before a local discovers it, and when one kid know then they all eventually know.

psyon27
02-20-2014, 14:21
I disagree with that. I think its just a matter of time before a local discovers it, and when one kid know then they all eventually know.

I agree with this. Doesn't mean it isn't a good idea or can't be done so that hikers are generally the only ones interested though.

Ken

Tuxedo
02-20-2014, 14:22
When I went thru that area in 06' Bob had just built a shelter and told a story of it had not been the first choice for locations due to protected plant life or trees. He also mentioned the different ways to conform to the federal laws for shelter/privy building. I see alot of info needed to make your vision a reality. I would love to do the same if I owned land adjacent to the AT.

I would offer the thought of donate the area best suited for a shelter and then the maintenance club can oversee the major aspects of law and liability. It's very common for someone like yourself to be a hands on shelter caretaker and trail Angel. Being the shelter ambassador is fairly common, many times folks living close by would stop in to share stories and make sure health needs are addressed. Brought food, beer or soda with all the love of hikers bless them.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 14:27
So, your family owns the old farm field you climb up the side of to the top of the ridge where the big, solitary tree is and at the top of the climb is a dirt road which the trail follows for a little while? I love the view from there back to the humps.

Since the Apple house shelter has been removed, having a "secret shelter" up on top of that hill would be great. Since the FS only has an easement for the AT on your land, I don't see where having an unmarked side trail to your little shelter would be a problem. And if you did keep the shelter secret, being only known in the hiker guides or word of mouth, the chances of the local kids learning about it is greatly reduced, especially if it is a stiff hike up that hill to get to it.

I belive there are rules in place to allow public access to your land which still protects you, often this is done to allow hunting and hiking on private land.

Tent platforms are simple wood platforms rised off the ground. This is usually done if the area is uneven or rocky and making good tent sites isn't practical. You could start with a platform and eventually add walls and a roof. A friend of mine built a tent platform on some property he owned and eventually built a nice litte cabin around it.

Would this be the view from the top of that field?
26022

yes this view is above me up either the trail through Bishop hollow or up old bill oakes road which is the road into our property. Bill oakes road once went all the way up as a private road but now crosses on to forest service lands at our back property line. I havent been up there in a long time, my wife still talks about having a picnic under that big old tree one day.

10-K
02-20-2014, 15:01
I'm risk-averse given I don't want to lose my assets but I'd recommend spending $100-$150 bucks talking to an attorney for an hour to see if he/she can scare you out of the idea. By building something and inviting others to stay there you're assuming a certain amount of liability, there's no doubt about that.

If you can get through that without throwing in the towel then call your insurance agent and tell him/her exactly what you're planning on doing. I'm guessing you'd want to increase your liability limits and maybe add an umbrella policy if you don't have one already.

It would be just my luck to build a structure and have a tree fall on it and paralyze someone....or lightening would hit it and kill a family of hikers.. Stuff happens.

HikerMom58
02-20-2014, 15:07
yes this view is above me up either the trail through Bishop hollow or up old bill oakes road which is the road into our property. Bill oakes road once went all the way up as a private road but now crosses on to forest service lands at our back property line. I havent been up there in a long time, my wife still talks about having a picnic under that big old tree one day.

That's beautiful! :) How cool is that- Slo had a pic of the view! :D I think you should do whatever you want to do.

If I were in your shoes, I would try to make this dream happen.

It's fun that you posted this idea on a thread on WB! :)

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 15:27
I disagree with that. I think its just a matter of time before a local discovers it, and when one kid know then they all eventually know.

At some point people would know it exists, however be it that we own both sides of the road there's no public access to the site. This is a one way in one way out hollow.,other then my road there is no road. I could gate the road near the top of the sleep hill climb making it almost impossible cause if you stop your backing all the way down. Getting there by ATV is actually difficult as well cause the trails into this place haven't been unused for a long time now and are really over grown. The attention from locals would be extremely low.

Coffee
02-20-2014, 15:33
At the very least an umbrella policy is a very good idea and is typically low cost. I've had an umbrella policy for many years because I do not regard the maximum automobile liability coverage to be adequate given the type of litigation that takes place these days. However, that umbrella policy is very restrictive and does not cover "commercial" activities. I attempted to rent a storage unit that I own in my building and had to cancel those plans since my umbrella wouldn't extend to commercial rental of the storage unit area and obviously liability is a huge issue when people are moving furniture and other things around. I'm not sure whether building a shelter on private land and allowing people to stay there (without taking fees) constitutes "commercial" activity or if they are simply regarded as your guests. My umbrella covers liability arising from guests being injured in my home but would not cover anything if I'm charging rent for a room, for example.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 15:36
I'm risk-averse given I don't want to lose my assets but I'd recommend spending $100-$150 bucks talking to an attorney for an hour to see if he/she can scare you out of the idea. By building something and inviting others to stay there you're assuming a certain amount of liability, there's no doubt about that.

If you can get through that without throwing in the towel then call your insurance agent and tell him/her exactly what you're planning on doing. I'm guessing you'd want to increase your liability limits and maybe add an umbrella policy if you don't have one already.

It would be just my luck to build a structure and have a tree fall on it and paralyze someone....or lightening would hit it and kill a family of hikers.. Stuff happens.

well, we will for sure have to assess the risks and see what comes of it. I hope it's minimal and this is something i can make happen.

Correct me if I'm wrong , the view in that picture isn't actually the area that a camps would be, that picture is taken from the trail itself about a half mile up the mountain almost where the trail tops out in to a large open field. The view from the site I'm considering is even better then that. I'll see if i can dig up a pic or go take one.

10-K
02-20-2014, 15:41
duplicate.....

10-K
02-20-2014, 15:43
Good luck, just cover your bases.

peakbagger
02-20-2014, 15:52
If it exists, folks will push the boundaries. An enclosed shelter even more so. A transient can move in and you will have to follow legal means to evict him. You also have to be careful that the public does not eventually obtain "squatters rights" to the shelter. Managing human waste is a difficult but necessary subject, if the shelter is used folks will find a place to go. For the shelter to be used a water source needs to be nearby.

Give Bob at Kincora a call, he can advise you and likes to work with locals.

Don H
02-20-2014, 16:26
You need electricity like the Secret Shelter so everyone can charge their phones. ;)

I can't remember the guys name who owns the SS but he seemed to really enjoy stopping and meeting the hikers.

Could be fun.

Slo-go'en
02-20-2014, 16:26
well, we will for sure have to assess the risks and see what comes of it. I hope it's minimal and this is something i can make happen.

Correct me if I'm wrong , the view in that picture isn't actually the area that a camps would be, that picture is taken from the trail itself about a half mile up the mountain almost where the trail tops out in to a large open field. The view from the site I'm considering is even better then that. I'll see if i can dig up a pic or go take one.

Yes, that picture is from near the top of the climb to the big field.

There are two private shelters off the AT that I know of, one in New York and one in Vermont, so what your thinking of doing is not unique. There is a piece of sidewalk in Harvard Square, Cambridge, MA which is roped off for one day a year to keep it under private ownership. You definately need to look into the legal and liability issues, but I suspect they are minimal, which is easy for me to say since I really don't have a clue.

bamboo bob
02-20-2014, 16:47
Your town might consider you providing public accommodations like a campground. Lawyer visit for sure. Also septic for a camper may not be enough for a dozen hikers night after night.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 16:48
If it exists, folks will push the boundaries. An enclosed shelter even more so. A transient can move in and you will have to follow legal means to evict him. You also have to be careful that the public does not eventually obtain "squatters rights" to the shelter. Managing human waste is a difficult but necessary subject, if the shelter is used folks will find a place to go. For the shelter to be used a water source needs to be nearby.

Give Bob at Kincora a call, he can advise you and likes to work with locals.


You need electricity like the Secret Shelter so everyone can charge their phones. ;)

I can't remember the guys name who owns the SS but he seemed to really enjoy stopping and meeting the hikers.

Could be fun.

the previous land owner installed a well, power and sewer and a piece of **** road, used it for a few summers and moved away eventually selling it

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 16:51
Your town might consider you providing public accommodations like a campground. Lawyer visit for sure. Also septic for a camper may not be enough for a dozen hikers night after night.

true,true and maybe, i never used the septic system only the well and power. Its the old gravel pit type maybe 20x40x6deep maybe

Hill Ape
02-20-2014, 16:53
squatters rights and adverse possession no longer really exist

i think it's a cool idea, if properly executed. as long as you are legally protected, and i'd suggest making damn sure of that

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 16:57
squatters rights and adverse possession no longer really exist

i think it's a cool idea, if properly executed. as long as you are legally protected, and i'd suggest making damn sure of that

ellijay as in ellijay GA?

Blue Mountain Edward
02-20-2014, 17:05
Talk to local guvment people like zoning board, building inspector,the mayor. They will tell you what you cant do.

bamboo bob
02-20-2014, 17:05
The Govmint will want Smoke detectors and Carbon Monoxide monitors and Radon detectors and certifications and advisories, approvals and various forms filled out and completed as well as the appropriate fees paid. Plus reviews, appraisals and a site visit by the board of health, board of assessors and board of Public Accommodations and perhaps the county veterinarian:

but Go for it! It sounds like a fun project.

ChinMusic
02-20-2014, 17:09
I applaud your intentions! May they work out well for all concerned. Are you familiar with the "Secret Shelter" in New Jersey? A past thru-hiker (name of Murray) did just what you are thinking of. I stayed there last October, in fact.

I'd recommend you get in touch with him and ask for advice. Two things he provides that I really appreciated are (1) electricity, and (2) a warm shower, albeit outdoor on the side of a building.

Rain Man

.

The Lookout (NOBO mile 1714.9 in 2013) in VT falls into this camp as well, as a private structure near the trail that welcomes hikers.

Hill Ape
02-20-2014, 17:27
ellijay as in ellijay GA?

yessir, how yall folk are?

rocketsocks
02-20-2014, 17:52
I applaud your intentions! May they work out well for all concerned. Are you familiar with the "Secret Shelter" in New Jersey? A past thru-hiker (name of Murray) did just what you are thinking of. I stayed there last October, in fact.

I'd recommend you get in touch with him and ask for advice. Two things he provides that I really appreciated are (1) electricity, and (2) a warm shower, albeit outdoor on the side of a building.

Rain Man

.


As much as i hate talking to lawyers i sorta figured as much. As to power and a hot shower, the previous land owner installed power,a well and sewer system for a camper he had up there so it's doable on the further away site. Would just be an issue of sustain cost. The shelter cost is more of a one time thing, with some minor maintenance over time. I'm looking at energy cost for a hot water now, looks like $30 - $50 a month depending on wattage and price for kilowatt hour. If it were to become a popular place i'd bet donation would cover most of it. Now in the summer I could have a big water barrel with a float valve sitting in the sunshine up hill from the shelter or over a shower stall. Supply it with a water hose also in the sunshine, letting mother nature help where she can. Would be interesting :-)
I know quite a few Lawyers that have given very good advice. might be worth your while.;):D

Slo-go'en
02-20-2014, 19:05
Sometimes its better to just go ahead and do something like this then to bring it up with the town, etc. If some day and some how they get wind of it and object, then they can tell you to stop. You can always say you built it for your own use and can't help that other people come and use it - just so long as you don't charge for using it. The only real problem might be if they want to tax your for a building.

sequor pars vicinus
02-20-2014, 20:46
As far as the township goes there isnt one to worry about. Maybe the county may have some requirements.

Lone Wolf
02-20-2014, 21:17
serious queastion. what is your fascination with hikers and why do you wanna lay out a bunch of $$ for no return? AT hikers are a dime a dozen. they're not suffering, got plenty of $$ on the southern part and there really is no need for a "secret" shelter in that section. just curious

1234
02-20-2014, 21:47
build it, enjoy it, keep care of it and those that come. Make it mouse free, (no nesting spots). If it get out of hand dismantle it.