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TOW
09-10-2005, 07:13
A Message from God
An atheist professor was teaching a college class and he told the class that he was going to prove that there was not a God.

He said, "God if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you 15 minutes!"

Ten minutes went by. He kept taunting God, saying, "Here I am God, I'm still waiting"

He got down to the last couple of minutes and a Huge 250-pound rugby player happened to walk by the door and heard what the professor said.

The rugby player walked into the classroom and in the last minute, he walked up, hit the professor full force, and sent him flying off the platform.

The professor got up, obviously shaken and said, "Where did you come from, and why did you do that?"

The football player replied, "God was busy; He sent me!"

kyhipo
09-10-2005, 08:27
i know that God works in mysterious ways I have been knocked off a few platforms myself :eek: enjoyed your post ky

smokymtnsteve
09-10-2005, 17:19
yea...more believers attacking ....Seems to be a repeating pattern,

why do belivers feel so justified and delighted in attacking folks who don't share thier beliefs???

if there really is a g-d that is a loving parent of all...then I'm sure this g-d would not approve of hitting your brother..

I'm a parent , a human...and I always taught my two sons not to hit each other. I must be nicer than your g-d.


if a g-d does happen to exsit would not it be an even more loving parent and a better teacher than me?

LOVE THY NEIGHBOR!!!!

ATHEISM ENDS RELIGIOUS VIOLENCE!

TURN THE OTHER CHEEK!

IMHO it is much better to believe and behave LIKE Jesus than it is to believe IN Jesus!

titanium_hiker
09-10-2005, 17:26
personally smoky, I believe in Jesus. And I try to be like Jesus. It's hard- (cause we're stinkin sinners) but with his help I try to be more like him each day. I still mess up, but he loves me anyway. Because he's God.

I didn't see anything wrong or offensive about this joke- rememeber the aethist was taunting in the joke- not very non-violent!

I don't want to pick a fight smoky, so I'll just end saying:
even if we have different religious beliefs, we can still get along. So, let's not fight.

titanium

Icicle
09-10-2005, 17:31
Gosh lighten up folks, it was a *joke*....you know....humor? :datz

smokymtnsteve
09-10-2005, 17:42
who is a "stinkin sinner"??? as U say we..

U gotta shelter mouse in ur gorp bag or something??

smokymtnsteve
09-10-2005, 17:47
btw the Athiest could not be taunting g-d as it is impossible to taunt something that doesn't exist,,,, :D

TOW
09-10-2005, 17:59
blah, blah, blah, smokeymountainsteve...........what a bunch of malarky you speak.....and you know the revealing thing of it all is that deep down under all that facade that you portray, your a true believer.............but you feel that God has turned his back on you somewhere along the way and there just can't be no God to let ole poor smokymountainsteve go thru all that he has been thru..........that's what it is isn't it steve???????????????...........and for the life of you-you just can't understand why we christians are in love with God and can enjoy a good laugh as this one because we have been there........time to wake up buddy, your thread is way too thin and your post shows it............you want to believe but you just won't allow yourself the goodness that awaits you.........happiness that you have always dreamed of is one belief away,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

smokymtnsteve
09-10-2005, 20:30
poor ole smokymtnsteve..has lived and is living a great life...

U my friend are the one who has problems with anothers belief not I, you are the one who wants to attack,,,

many folks other than Xians lead very happy fulfilling lives,why do U think U have the ONLY WAY??

after your attack and apology in another thread ..once again you try to tell me what my feelings and thoughts are...and once again U R quite mistaken. however I won't stoop so low as saying UR full of marlarkey,,,but U do seem to B full of anger.

seems some where in your holey babble there is a passage about removing the timber from your own eye before trying to take the splinter from anothers eye.

Nightwalker
09-10-2005, 23:05
Hey, Steve. You know we ain't all like that, right?

smokymtnsteve
09-10-2005, 23:20
Hey, Steve. You know we ain't all like that, right?


Frank... I jist kep hopin yu will SEE DA LITE.... ;)

of course Frank I know there are all types of folks ....some of'em good and some of'em are quite qualified as to being self-admitted "stinkin sinners" :D

Nightwalker
09-11-2005, 00:34
of course Frank I know there are all types of folks ....some of'em good and some of'em are quite qualified as to being self-admitted "stinkin sinners" :D
That would be me. Keep tryin', keep screwin' up.

:eek:

TOW
09-11-2005, 01:23
you know steve, your the one that comes on here talking about us attacking and it is you who are full of anger..........and yes i do believe my way is the only way "for me".........you see steve what it comes down to is this, and you already know this, God comes to each one of us in the only way that we can understand Him, but it is thru interaction with other christians that we just simply say "well maybe, just maybe these guys might be onto something? maybe i'll (steve) just give this a shot?"

i mean, who is it here you are trying to convince that you "have lived and are living a great life?"

you see, you and i are kind of alike..........your trying to convince me that atheism is a great life and i am "convincing" you and some of your cohorts here that a deep personal one on one relationship with your Creator is the only way to having a purposeful life.............

if you don't have a problem with God, because it is not us christians who you have a problem with, then why the post on this thread? why do you have to say anything if you are so comfortable with being an athiest? why should a simple little joke about a wake up call bother you?

i'll tell you why, it is because your "wake up call" is pounding on your door!

and you don't have to wait, because i won't be apologizing to you....................

digger51
09-11-2005, 04:01
Guys, its a hiking website. Cant we stop beating each other up because of our beliefs or disbeliefs? Steve, while I am a Christian, I accept your desire to believe or not as you choose. I hope you can accept my praying to the God I believe in for your good health and safety as we hike through life.

hikerjohnd
09-11-2005, 07:21
Guys, its a hiking website. Cant we stop beating each other up because of our beliefs or disbeliefs?
I'd like to second that... What started as humor has obviously hit a nerve...

justusryans
09-11-2005, 08:23
Ok guys play nice...

TOW
09-11-2005, 09:05
of course Frank I know there are all types of folks ....some of'em good and some of'em are quite qualified as to being self-admitted "stinkin sinners" :D
...........you hit the nail on the head with me on that one..........i do fall short of the glory of His love, but i don't stay down there............i keep on coming back to Him.........

Just Jeff
09-11-2005, 11:56
If God is "just" why does he hold you accountable for someone else's actions? I wasn't born a sinner...I was born innocent and in search of joy, rather than guilty, ashamed, and atoning for Adam's flaws.

My flaws are my own, and I sin because it's fun... :p

But that's just the path I hike, and you hike your own, and hopefully they'll intersect eventually.

TOW
09-11-2005, 12:41
If God is "just" why does he hold you accountable for someone else's actions? I wasn't born a sinner...I was born innocent and in search of joy, rather than guilty, ashamed, and atoning for Adam's flaws.

My flaws are my own, and I sin because it's fun... :p

But that's just the path I hike, and you hike your own, and hopefully they'll intersect eventually.
i don't have an answer for you, because i myself don't understand the born into sin thing enough to comment on it...........however i know one thing, He holds us accountable for our own actions............you hike your hike, and i hike mine.......i look forward to our paths intersecting sometime out there on the trail, perhaps before or beyond...........

Nightwalker
09-11-2005, 14:27
and you don't have to wait, because i won't be apologizing to you....................
Do you have any idea how little you're helping the cause of Christ?

smokymtnsteve
09-11-2005, 16:59
I'd like to second that... What started as humor has obviously hit a nerve...


seems that the "humor" was about hitting. do U find hitting people humorous?

smokymtnsteve
09-11-2005, 17:05
Do you have any idea how little you're helping the cause of Christ?


don't worry frank.....god if there is a g-d doesn't need help with it's cause nor could it B injured by such and idjit,

on the other hand folks lik U Frank, far out shine ...mayB U do C a lite.

as do eye.

sgt rock is a SB..and I lik that ole boy..he is a rite good feller that Sgt Rock even if he is a SB.

justusryans
09-11-2005, 17:07
The best way to show people the power of God is by living a good Christian life. Something I'm afraid I can't claim to do.

smokymtnsteve
09-11-2005, 17:13
The best way to show people the power of God is by living a good Christian life. Something I'm afraid I can't claim to do.

don't B afraid mike ...jist keep on rockin...

TOW
09-11-2005, 18:56
Do you have any idea how little you're helping the cause of Christ?.........it's only your opinion and i don't see it from your perspective..........

SGT Rock
09-11-2005, 18:57
Here is a good example of people so worried about righteousness they forgot the message and the messenger. And no, I am not making this up, I couldn't have dreamed this one up in a million years:

Anti-gay church protests at soldiers’ funerals
by (AP) Monday, Aug. 29, 2005 at 11:00 AM



Counterdemonstrators in Tennessee chase away members of small church

AP, Updated: 5:38 a.m. ET Aug. 28, 2005


SMYRNA, Tenn. - Members of a church say God is punishing American soldiers for defending a country that harbors gays, and they brought their anti-gay message to the funerals Saturday of two Tennessee soldiers killed in Iraq.

The church members were met with scorn from local residents. They chased the church members cars’ down a highway, waving flags and screaming “God bless America.”

“My husband is over there, so I’m here to show my support,” 41-year-old Connie Ditmore said as she waved and American flag and as tears came to her eyes. “To do this at a funeral is disrespectful of a family, no matter what your beliefs are.”

The Rev. Fred Phelps, founder of Westboro Baptist in Kansas, contends that American soldiers are being killed in Iraq as vengeance from God for protecting a country that harbors gays. The church, which is not affiliated with a larger denomination, is made up mostly of Phelps’ children, grandchildren and in-laws.

‘God hates you,’ signs read

The church members carried signs and shouted things such as “God hates ****” and “God hates you.”

About 10 church members protested near Smyrna United Methodist Church and nearly 20 stood outside the National Guard Armory in Ashland City. Members have demonstrated at other soldier funerals across the nation.

The funerals were for Staff Sgt. Asbury Fred Hawn II, 35, in Smyrna and Spc. Gary Reese Jr., 22, in Ashland City. Both were members of the Tennessee National Guard.

Large counterdemonstrations

Hundreds of Smyrna and Ashland City residents and families of other soldiers turned out at both sites to counter the message the Westboro Baptist members brought.

So many counterdemonstrators were gathered in Ashland City that police, sheriff’s deputies and state troopers were brought in to control traffic and protect the protesters.

The church members held protesting permits, and counterprotesters in Smyrna turned their backs to Westboro Baptist members until time expired on the protest permits.

“If they were protesting the government, I might even join them,” Danny Cotton, 56, said amid cries of “get out of our town” and “get out of our country.”

“But for them to come during the worst time for this family — it’s just wrong.”


www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9102443/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9102443/)

titanium_hiker
09-11-2005, 19:19
you are right rock- that stuff is sickening. I'd like to encourage all christians in the online community to remember to SPREAD THE LOVE-

we can argue about faith for as long as we want- but you will never argue someone over to a faith.

titanium

smokymtnsteve
09-11-2005, 19:51
.........it's only your opinion and i don't see it from your perspective..........

Heck..I doubt U kin C @ all what with that timber lodged N ur eye.

Frosty
09-11-2005, 21:36
Guys, its a hiking website. Cant we stop beating each other up because of our beliefs or disbeliefs? Steve, while I am a Christian, I accept your desire to believe or not as you choose. I hope you can accept my praying to the God I believe in for your good health and safety as we hike through life.I agree it's supposed to be a hiking website.

We are all hikers, but not all Repulbicans, Democrats, Christians, Muslims, Jews, whatever. So why not stick to hiking, and leave out the political stuff, including signature lines, and leave out the religious stuff, including signature lines.

Surely we can talk about hiking without talking politics or religion, which is sure to start a squabble. Why poke and prod people with messages they don't want to see and which are not part of hiking.

That would be great.

Well, if it's a hiking website, why all the religious posts.

Lugnut
09-11-2005, 22:43
Re: SGT Rocks post. There are fanatics in every religion except one. I've never heard of a militant/fanatic/fundamentalist Buddhist! Maybe they're on to something? :banana

Nightwalker
09-11-2005, 22:47
.........it's only your opinion and i don't see it from your perspective..........
Try the Bible's. If you were to let it become your favorite book, it'd change your life. It'd change the way that you treat people. It'd make you an effective tool for God, if you were to read it prayerfully, and not just looking for another weapon to whoop up on them there hell-bound heathens.

It's all about LOVE. The only people that Jesus berated when he was on this earth were the ones who were using religion to gain power or enrichment. He didn't hammer sinners. He went home with 'em; ate with 'em; drank with 'em. In short, he loved them, and that's why so many were changed by his message.

Go forward a little bit to Paul's messages. When he went to Athens, he didn't turn to the Greeks and say "I see all of these statues here, boys. Y'all gonna burn, burn, burn." He looked around at all of the false idols and said "I see that you are a religious people. I even see a statue to my God, even though you don't know it"--speaking of the one built for 'the unknown God'. He then proceeded to reason with them, andf he converted many.

Even as far back as Daniel, in the time (Old Testament) that the angry believers seem to want to remember as "the good old days" when God sent down fire and brimstone and floods. They don't really read the whole story. Daniel respectfully and peacefully dealt with his captors, even when interpreting dreams for Nebuchadnezzar that were prophesying the end of his reign. Even after being thrown in the lion's den. By dealing from love, faith and respect, Daniel caused even the king to believe in God.

My opinion? No, it isn't my opinion, it's God's word, laid out plain. If you're going to go around making yourself loud for God, which is a good thing, you should be doing it in a way that is of the Bible, and is correct and loving.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing with you over this. I'm just telling you that you're wrong, I'm telling you how to learn better, and telling you that you should do it. Our book says "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." If you don't educate yourself by studying that word, then no, can't help the cause of Christ, because you won't know how. You can't, because you don't know the truth. You don't know if your faith is based in whole or inpart on truth, or on what "mama's cousin's sister's preacher said."

We had someone here last year that thought the best way that they could witness was to attack everyone on here for everything they said that went contrary to what they knew of the word. Like a lot of folks, what they knew was the few verses per week that they heard on Sunday morning, and that was about it. I wasted a lot of time arguing with that person. It didn't help. They never "got it." I'm not going to argue with you on this one any more. The rest is up to you.

This is your chance to say what you need to. You get to have the last word. I honestly pray that you will grow in God's word, because your enthusiasm is really useful. It's just been being misapplied.

Frank

saimyoji
09-11-2005, 23:20
Re: SGT Rocks post. There are fanatics in every religion except one. I've never heard of a militant/fanatic/fundamentalist Buddhist! Maybe they're on to something? :banana

Uhhhh....KUNG FU?!! Islands of monks learning kung fu to kick the butts of the infadels....

Try this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/1948288.stm scroll down to the heading: Terror Gangs: "...only last month a contingent of 200 kung fu warriors was sent to destroy the economic blockade at Brickaville being run by the incumbent regime."

saimyoji
09-11-2005, 23:23
Can't edit so I'm adding:

Forget about these guys being Buddhists. Seems they are Xians. Hmm....

Just Jeff
09-11-2005, 23:51
So let's get this back to hiking.

I'm not a christian, but I like Jesus...he wore sandals (even though they look like hippy Birkenstocks in all the artwork), he walked all over the place, and he carried his worldly possessions with him in a bag. Even had a big scruffy hiker beard for part of his life. Master of the yogi, too. And creating lots of food out of a piece of bread is definitely an ultralight skill I'd like to learn.

Now if I could just find a hiker who would wash my feet in the shelters I'd be all set...at least 200 ft from the water source, of course ( www.lnt.org (http://www.lnt.org)) . Though I'd probably feel too odd about letting some dude who looks like Tha Wookie wash my feet. :p

TOW
09-12-2005, 00:00
Frank, no argument with you and your opinion.........but i disagree with you..........you need to read Ecclesiastes.............i stand by what i have posted here and i will not back down..............

dougmeredith
09-12-2005, 08:26
you see steve what it comes down to is this, and you already know this
Why do you keep saying this? Do you know Steve? Do you realize how insulting it is to tell someone what they know?

Doug

SGT Rock
09-12-2005, 08:28
A Message from God


An atheist professor was teaching a college class and he told the class that he was going to prove that there was not a God.

He said, "God if you are real, then I want you to knock me off this platform. I'll give you 15 minutes!"

Ten minutes went by. He kept taunting God, saying, "Here I am God, I'm still waiting"

He got down to the last couple of minutes and a Huge 250-pound rugby player happened to walk by the door and heard what the professor said.

The rugby player walked into the classroom and in the last minute, he walked up, hit the professor full force, and sent him flying off the platform.

The professor got up, obviously shaken and said, "Where did you come from, and why did you do that?"

The football player replied, "God was busy; He sent me!"
Wanderer, think about this:

If the rugby player had had walked in and knocked on the desk, it could have still been funny and showed how God can work though people while still maintaining Christ's love for even people that have not gone to him yet.

Since the rugby player came in an struck the man, it shows someone with a poor understanding of the New Testament ideals and the type of Christian that thinks people like this should be punished instead of loved and persuaded.

I think that is what others are trying to say when they mention how this is a poor way testify. Your decision not to listen and argue only further proves the point.

Peace:sun

Alligator
09-12-2005, 09:02
Hey The Only Wanderer, this is the HIKING Humor thread. You have been here long enough to start putting posts in the right place. This thread should have been placed in the circular storage compartment on your desktop--looks like a waste basket.

frieden
09-12-2005, 10:48
Excuse me, while I pull my jaw off the floor. What are we, 12? I saw the joke as "be careful about what you ask for, or taunt God about". I thought it was funny. Life is way too important to take seriously. I know God exists, but I'm not going to force my beliefs on someone else. That is exactly contrary to Jesus' teachings, remember? God comes to everyone in their own time, when they are ready. All we can do is show love and understanding (easier said than done for a human).

God, who is love, wouldn't knock someone off their pedestal? The heck he wouldn't! I'm thick-headed, and don't always see the signs He puts in front of me. It's sort of like: (sign)"Don't do that"; (sign)"Hey, you really shouldn't do that"; <whack!> "No!" If your child ignored your warnings, and was about to be hit by a car, would you really worry about hurting her arm by grabbing it and yanking her out of danger, or let her get hit by the car? Gosh, the Bible is full of thousands of people dying, so one king could learn a lesson. Unfortunately, people confuse Jesus' teachings, with this man-made religion they call "Christianity".

If I offend someone here, please tell me (not attack me), because that is not my intention. I doubt The Only Wonderer posts jokes to hurt anyone. In fact, his jokes typically make my day! Telling someone that their post offended you is a good thing. Attacking them, when they weren't attacking you, will cause an online war like this. That's just my opinion.

Alligator
09-12-2005, 11:21
Excuse me, while I pull my jaw off the floor. What are we, 12? I saw the joke as "be careful about what you ask for, or taunt God about". I thought it was funny. Life is way too important to take seriously. I know God exists, but I'm not going to force my beliefs on someone else. That is exactly contrary to Jesus' teachings, remember? God comes to everyone in their own time, when they are ready. All we can do is show love and understanding (easier said than done for a human).

God, who is love, wouldn't knock someone off their pedestal? The heck he wouldn't! I'm thick-headed, and don't always see the signs He puts in front of me. It's sort of like: (sign)"Don't do that"; (sign)"Hey, you really shouldn't do that"; <whack!> "No!" If your child ignored your warnings, and was about to be hit by a car, would you really worry about hurting her arm by grabbing it and yanking her out of danger, or let her get hit by the car? Gosh, the Bible is full of thousands of people dying, so one king could learn a lesson. Unfortunately, people confuse Jesus' teachings, with this man-made religion they call "Christianity".

If I offend someone here, please tell me (not attack me), because that is not my intention. I doubt The Only Wonderer posts jokes to hurt anyone. In fact, his jokes typically make my day! Telling someone that their post offended you is a good thing. Attacking them, when they weren't attacking you, will cause an online war like this. That's just my opinion.
Ok. I find your lecturing about God in the hiking humor forum to be odious.

One Leg
09-12-2005, 12:57
First off, I thought that the original joke was funny. I saw it for what it was, and appreciated the lighthearted humor. That being said, I didn't chime in with a "LOL" or "Funny post" comment...

I am a Christian. I am not a Christian who goes around telling other folks that I am a Christian, because I do not want someone else to look at me as an example of Christianity. I am a poor example. I can only hope that one day, the love of Christ will shine through my life, and folks will be able to look at me and tell that I have something different, not because of what I say, but because of how I act.

SMS and I are friends. We are worlds apart in our beliefs, but we are friends nonetheless because we have respect one for another. I think he's wrong, he thinks I'm wrong, yet we can see beyond those differences and be friends.

You aren't going to win any converts by beating them over the head with your 1611 KJV, leaving the imprint of the old rugged cross on their foreheads. However, you will gain a lot of ground by giving some respect, allow room for differences, and let your light so shine before men.

If you want a place where folks essentially share the same beliefs as you, then I highly suggest that you give ChristianHikers.Com a peview... You'll find what you're looking for there: A place to share your faith, while enjoying the love of hiking with your fellow members.

Psalms 119:165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.


Just my $.02 worth...

Scott

Tha Wookie
09-12-2005, 13:23
Wanderer, think about this:

If the rugby player had had walked in and knocked on the desk, it could have still been funny and showed how God can work though people while still maintaining Christ's love for even people that have not gone to him yet.

Since the rugby player came in an struck the man, it shows someone with a poor understanding of the New Testament ideals and the type of Christian that thinks people like this should be punished instead of loved and persuaded.

I think that is what others are trying to say when they mention how this is a poor way testify. Your decision not to listen and argue only further proves the point.

Peace:sun
I totally agree. This "humor" post is just a trap for a religious debate. As soon as I saw this and Wanderer's other new religious humor (not hiking humor) threads, I could tell. Wanderer knows better than to hide it in a joke.

If you want to excersise your self-righteousness in front of others, Wanderer, at least call it what it is.

If someone were to post a bunch of racist jokes on here, you would expect them to know better, and the "oh, it's a humor thread" excuse would not go very far.

I'm sure Christ of all people would not appreciate jokes about his existence.

JoeHiker
09-12-2005, 13:35
I'm an atheist and I thought it was funny.

Whistler
09-12-2005, 13:51
So, atheists and Christians aren't so different, anyway. They agree on a whole panoply of gods that do NOT exist [Zeus, Shiva, Quetzalcoatl, etc.]. They only disagree on one in particular... :]

-Mark

titanium_hiker
09-12-2005, 14:05
I think this thread is done, both sides arguments have been covered, so, mod, could you lock it (or whatever) please?

agreeing to disagree,
titanium

smokymtnsteve
09-12-2005, 15:27
I think this thread is done, both sides arguments have been covered, so, mod, could you lock it (or whatever) please?

agreeing to disagree,
titanium


there is another solution for U TH...rather than trying to control and have this discussion closed,,,(and deny me the oppourtunity to hear from my bud ONE LEG) U KIN JIST not click on and read this thread and SHAKE THE DUST FROM YOUR ROBE AND KEEP ON WALKING, which is what hikin is about anyway.

smokymtnsteve
09-12-2005, 15:33
I'm an atheist and I thought it was funny.



I did too....what was REALLY funny was knowing from reading "THE BOOK" is that g-d would not have sent a big hockey player to knock the egghead athiest professor off the platform but would have sent a nerdy little bookworm to do the job.

kinda like david and golaith.

jist lik frank sez...U gotta read the book.

I do know the stories??? huh,,one leg

:D :D

MOWGLI
09-12-2005, 17:01
Larry, you seem like a really nice guy, but I swear, when I read these zany treads you start, it reminds me of the barrage of emails my Mother-in-Law forwards me over & over again.

I hope we meet on the trail sometime. I'll save a joke or two for the occasion.

One Leg
09-12-2005, 17:09
Jeff: I had to "LOL" at your post, funny stuff....

SMS: Seeing as how we come from almost identical backgrounds, if you don't know the stories by now, then something's mighty wrong, LOL... We've both had it drilled in us since early childhood. (Only, mine "stuck"-Had to get that side-jab in there, you know how I am....) How're things in Ak.??? Get that stove warmed up, winter's a-comin'...If'n it gets too cold, just pull up another dawg for warmth...(Sorta like the Goatman pulling up another goat...Remember him??)

Lilred
09-12-2005, 17:20
Here is a good example of people so worried about righteousness they forgot the message and the messenger. And no, I am not making this up, I couldn't have dreamed this one up in a million years:

Anti-gay church protests at soldiers’ funerals
by (AP) Monday, Aug. 29, 2005 at 11:00 AM



Counterdemonstrators in Tennessee chase away members of small church

AP, Updated: 5:38 a.m. ET Aug. 28, 2005


SMYRNA, Tenn. - Members of a church say God is punishing American soldiers for defending a country that harbors gays, and they brought their anti-gay message to the funerals Saturday of two Tennessee soldiers killed in Iraq.

The church members were met with scorn from local residents. They chased the church members cars’ down a highway, waving flags and screaming “God bless America.”

“My husband is over there, so I’m here to show my support,” 41-year-old Connie Ditmore said as she waved and American flag and as tears came to her eyes. “To do this at a funeral is disrespectful of a family, no matter what your beliefs are.”

The Rev. Fred Phelps, founder of Westboro Baptist in Kansas, contends that American soldiers are being killed in Iraq as vengeance from God for protecting a country that harbors gays. The church, which is not affiliated with a larger denomination, is made up mostly of Phelps’ children, grandchildren and in-laws.

‘God hates you,’ signs read

The church members carried signs and shouted things such as “God hates ****” and “God hates you.”

About 10 church members protested near Smyrna United Methodist Church and nearly 20 stood outside the National Guard Armory in Ashland City. Members have demonstrated at other soldier funerals across the nation.

The funerals were for Staff Sgt. Asbury Fred Hawn II, 35, in Smyrna and Spc. Gary Reese Jr., 22, in Ashland City. Both were members of the Tennessee National Guard.

Large counterdemonstrations

Hundreds of Smyrna and Ashland City residents and families of other soldiers turned out at both sites to counter the message the Westboro Baptist members brought.

So many counterdemonstrators were gathered in Ashland City that police, sheriff’s deputies and state troopers were brought in to control traffic and protect the protesters.

The church members held protesting permits, and counterprotesters in Smyrna turned their backs to Westboro Baptist members until time expired on the protest permits.

“If they were protesting the government, I might even join them,” Danny Cotton, 56, said amid cries of “get out of our town” and “get out of our country.”

“But for them to come during the worst time for this family — it’s just wrong.”


www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9102443/ (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9102443/)


I live about an hour from where this happened. This "church" consisted of the preacher, his immediate family, his grandchildren and his inlaws. Hardly a church by most standards.

smokymtnsteve
09-12-2005, 17:21
not only do I remember the goat man he is my Hero...

did some research and found him in a nursing home in Macon GA a few years back...went to visit him took him a few bucks and a package of clean underwear. sat and talked with him a while...he passed away about a week later. knew it was the real GM cause U could still see the deformity in his arm from the old CCC accident.

he used to camp across from my grandfathers garage on the old Jackson hwy jist south of covington ga...

now that ole GM could really argue the scripture with ya.

Lilred
09-12-2005, 17:24
Try the Bible's. If you were to let it become your favorite book, it'd change your life. It'd change the way that you treat people. It'd make you an effective tool for God, if you were to read it prayerfully, and not just looking for another weapon to whoop up on them there hell-bound heathens.

It's all about LOVE. The only people that Jesus berated when he was on this earth were the ones who were using religion to gain power or enrichment. He didn't hammer sinners. He went home with 'em; ate with 'em; drank with 'em. In short, he loved them, and that's why so many were changed by his message.

Go forward a little bit to Paul's messages. When he went to Athens, he didn't turn to the Greeks and say "I see all of these statues here, boys. Y'all gonna burn, burn, burn." He looked around at all of the false idols and said "I see that you are a religious people. I even see a statue to my God, even though you don't know it"--speaking of the one built for 'the unknown God'. He then proceeded to reason with them, andf he converted many.

Even as far back as Daniel, in the time (Old Testament) that the angry believers seem to want to remember as "the good old days" when God sent down fire and brimstone and floods. They don't really read the whole story. Daniel respectfully and peacefully dealt with his captors, even when interpreting dreams for Nebuchadnezzar that were prophesying the end of his reign. Even after being thrown in the lion's den. By dealing from love, faith and respect, Daniel caused even the king to believe in God.

My opinion? No, it isn't my opinion, it's God's word, laid out plain. If you're going to go around making yourself loud for God, which is a good thing, you should be doing it in a way that is of the Bible, and is correct and loving.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time arguing with you over this. I'm just telling you that you're wrong, I'm telling you how to learn better, and telling you that you should do it. Our book says "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." If you don't educate yourself by studying that word, then no, can't help the cause of Christ, because you won't know how. You can't, because you don't know the truth. You don't know if your faith is based in whole or inpart on truth, or on what "mama's cousin's sister's preacher said."

We had someone here last year that thought the best way that they could witness was to attack everyone on here for everything they said that went contrary to what they knew of the word. Like a lot of folks, what they knew was the few verses per week that they heard on Sunday morning, and that was about it. I wasted a lot of time arguing with that person. It didn't help. They never "got it." I'm not going to argue with you on this one any more. The rest is up to you.

This is your chance to say what you need to. You get to have the last word. I honestly pray that you will grow in God's word, because your enthusiasm is really useful. It's just been being misapplied.

Frank

Very well said Frank.

One Leg
09-12-2005, 17:29
not only do I remember the goat man he is my Hero...

did some research and found him in a nursing home in Macon GA a few years back...went to visit him took him a few bucks and a package of clean underwear. sat and talked with him a while...he passed away about a week later. knew it was the real GM cause U could still see the deformity in his arm from the old CCC accident.

he used to camp across from my grandfathers garage on the old Jackson hwy jist south of covington ga...

now that ole GM could really argue the scripture with ya.

He was the "Grand Marshall" at the Barnesville "Buggy Days" parade back in the mid-late 90's. He looked old enough to bleed dust then.

My dad has a video that someone produced about him, and GM's son was on there. He still lived in the old schoolbus out in Twiggs Co. A short time after that video was taken, someone murdered the son. (He was a character surpassed only by his dad.)

GM argue scripture? I've heard the man preach a sermon, and pause to cuss out his goats....

Small world.........

smokymtnsteve
09-12-2005, 17:34
now as to stayin warm oneleg I done learnt a lesson from U


seems I have found myself a woman up hern in AK...a real AK pioneer, been in AK 35 years... girl knows how to sharpen a drawknife and break up a dog fight.

we R planning a commitment ceremony on the winter solstice...come on up U kin B the officator. ( U kin walk on snowshoes with that thar leg of yourn kant ya?)

now this is goin to B hard for ye to believe .

this girl is a BELIEVER and ( R U siitting down??)

she voted for GW Bush.

One Leg
09-12-2005, 17:37
now as to stayin warm oneleg I done learnt a lesson from U


seems I have found myself a woman up hern in AK...a real AK pioneer, been in AK 35 years... girl knows how to sharpen a drawknife and break up a dog fight.

we R planning a commitment ceremony on the winter solstice...come on up U kin B the officator. ( U kin walk on snowshoes with that thar leg of yourn kant ya?)

now this is goin to B hard for ye to believe .

this girl is a BELIEVER and ( R U siitting down??)

she voted for GW Bush.

Oh Lawd....Don't corrupt her, Steve........ Hey, on second thought, there just may be hope for you after all......... I mean, I have been prayin' for ya........

One Leg
09-12-2005, 17:46
we R planning a commitment ceremony on the winter solstice...come on up U kin B the officator. ( U kin walk on snowshoes with that thar leg of yourn kant ya?)

I have a bad habit of speedreading through posts, so this'n slipped right past me...

Shore, I'll come up and give it my best Independent Baptist shot... How much is airfare nowadays??

In Pa. at the moment, leaving for NYC Wed.morning early, then returning to Pa on Thursday to finish up.. As soon as I get home, gotta prepare to head toward Mankato, Minnesota for a disabilities convention there. When I get home on Oct.3, I'm free till Jan'06, when I start human taxidermist school in Nashville.....

smokymtnsteve
09-12-2005, 17:47
Oh Lawd....Don't corrupt her, Steve........ Hey, on second thought, there just may be hope for you after all......... I mean, I have been prayin' for ya........

well she tells me that god told here to come find me..

very strange meeting, I wuz up in that ole dog musher cabin about a mile and half off the hwy and up the mtn 1500 ft ..about midnight one day (remember the midnight sun) last may, some one jist came busting thru the cabin ...I jumped up
as it startled me to have someone come in...didn't even take time to dress and thar she was standing in the front room with her backpack on....

WELCOME TO ALASKA!

Stoker53
09-12-2005, 17:49
Was the rugby player wearing a wool ( retro ) or synthetic jersey ? Personally I prefer the newer synthetics. Less itchy, dry a lot quicker and are more compressible.

What do you guys think?

smokymtnsteve
09-12-2005, 17:53
Was the rugby player wearing a wool ( retro ) or synthetic jersey ? Personally I prefer the newer synthetics. Less itchy, dry a lot quicker and are more compressible.

What do you guys think?

bein that he wuz practicin that ole tyme religion I guess he would have been wearing wool.....ya know the good shepard thang and all
:datz

MOWGLI
09-12-2005, 18:14
Larry, you seem like a really nice guy, but I swear, when I read these zany treads you start, it reminds me of the barrage of emails my Mother-in-Law forwards me over & over again.


Just got this one a few minutes ago. I sure love my Mother-In-Law, but if I get one more email like this, I think I'll scream. :datz

THIS SCARES ME. WHAT ABOUT YOU??? I am sending it on with the hopes that you will read it and pay attention. I honestly do not know what we can do as individuals but this is truly scary to me. :eek:

Quite an opener to an email, right? I'll leave out the juicy article she sent along with the above opening. Your :welcome

titanium_hiker
09-12-2005, 18:57
sorry about the request for closure- it's usual practice on another forum I frequent. Sorry.

Hey steve, great to hear that you got someone... I'd like to be your friend btw, if that's ok.

Thanks for cooling the thread down Oneleg.

titanium

weary
09-12-2005, 21:47
[quote] "It's all about LOVE," claims Frank L.

One can find anything one wants in the "Bible." But anyone who thinks the Christian-Jewish Bible is "all about love." simply hasn't read significantly in the Old Testament and has skipped a few New Testament passages.

Weary, who found the best internet access of his 7 week tour of the northern National Parks in a cabin on a pretty stream in Winthrop, WA. We drive though the Northen cascades in the morning and then head for Seattle to pick up Jonathan, the grandson who started this saga when as a nine-year-old in 1991 he accompanied me on a 273 mile ascent of Katahdin, (we started at Grafton Notch) and continued with 600 miles of the AT i n 1993, and helped me pick up Massachusetts and Connecticut two years later.

Alligator
09-12-2005, 21:58
If you're going to Mt. Rainier Weary, don't miss the Grove of the Patriarchs. Makes everyone look young;) .

smokymtnsteve
09-12-2005, 22:02
human taxidermy???...U ain't getting UR hands on me One leg.....

I done got me a cremation...all paid for and everything....

gonna git me a head start on my burning in Hell...

:eek:

Alligator
09-12-2005, 22:38
...
We had someone here last year that thought the best way that they could witness was to attack everyone on here for everything they said that went contrary to what they knew of the word. Like a lot of folks, what they knew was the few verses per week that they heard on Sunday morning, and that was about it. I wasted a lot of time arguing with that person. It didn't help. They never "got it." I'm not going to argue with you on this one any more. The rest is up to you.

...

FrankThey may have learned a lesson. Doesn't that bring a smile?

TOW
09-12-2005, 23:40
oh my gosh...........gee whiz wally get a load of this............

frieden
09-13-2005, 09:56
Ok. I find your lecturing about God in the hiking humor forum to be odious.
Alligator, I'm sorry you found my post offensive, but I'm very sorry you thought it was a lecture. Wow, through all the nasty, preaching posts before mine, you thought mine was offensive. I wasn't lecturing; I was asking for perspective. Thank you for your post.

MOWGLI
09-13-2005, 11:52
Alligator, I'm sorry you found my post offensive, but I'm very sorry you thought it was a lecture. Wow, through all the nasty, preaching posts before mine, you thought mine was offensive. I wasn't lecturing; I was asking for perspective. Thank you for your post.

Frieden, you did ask to be told if anyone found your post offensive.

If I offend someone here, please tell me (not attack me), because that is not my intention.
Alligator simply obliged you.

Dances with Mice
09-13-2005, 12:12
I done got me a cremation...all paid for and everything....On the marge of Lake LeBarge?

Alligator
09-13-2005, 12:48
Alligator, I'm sorry you found my post offensive, but I'm very sorry you thought it was a lecture. Wow, through all the nasty, preaching posts before mine, you thought mine was offensive. I wasn't lecturing; I was asking for perspective. Thank you for your post.Ask and ye shall receive. The following is a lecture about God.
lec·ture http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/JPG/pron.jpg (https://secure.reference.com/premium/login.html?rd=2&u=http%3A%2F%2Fdictionary.reference.com%2Fsearch%3 Fq%3Dlecture) ( P ) Pronunciation Key (http://dictionary.reference.com/help/ahd4/pronkey.html) (lhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/ebreve.gifkhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/prime.gifchhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/AHD4/GIF/schwa.gifr)
n.

An exposition of a given subject delivered before an audience or a class, as for the purpose of instruction.



...I know God exists, but I'm not going to force my beliefs on someone else. That is exactly contrary to Jesus' teachings, remember? God comes to everyone in their own time, when they are ready. All we can do is show love and understanding (easier said than done for a human).

God, who is love, wouldn't knock someone off their pedestal? The heck he wouldn't! I'm thick-headed, and don't always see the signs He puts in front of me. It's sort of like: (sign)"Don't do that"; (sign)"Hey, you really shouldn't do that"; <whack!> "No!" If your child ignored your warnings, and was about to be hit by a car, would you really worry about hurting her arm by grabbing it and yanking her out of danger, or let her get hit by the car? Gosh, the Bible is full of thousands of people dying, so one king could learn a lesson. Unfortunately, people confuse Jesus' teachings, with this man-made religion they call "Christianity".

...
I am lecturing you on the use of the word lecture:D .

My perspective on the matter is that TOW has been posting near spam in the forums and needed to be redirected to the Non-AT related forum, while you have been behaving as his number one cheerleader.

You are most welcome.

titanium_hiker
09-13-2005, 15:14
just to chuck in my *hem* two cents (cause who else HASN'T?)



weary- I have read the OT and the NT (I don't claim to have abe lincolned it though- 3 times right thru before he was ten) And I know about God's wrath. There is no scrap of bad in him- so he demands punishment for badness.

it's because of God's wrath that it is all about love. Everyone screws up. This is a debt to pay. God WILL exact punishment. However, he loved us so much that his son Jesus suffered a horrible death in our place. All you have to do is acknowlege that your debt has been paid. However, God loved us so much he gave us the ultimate freedom- choice.

titanium

TOW
09-13-2005, 19:08
My perspective on the matter is that TOW has been posting near spam in the forums and needed to be redirected to the Non-AT related forum, while you have been behaving as his number one cheerleader.

You are most welcome.oh horsecrappy............

TOW
09-13-2005, 19:09
just to chuck in my *hem* two cents (cause who else HASN'T?)

However, God loved us so much he gave us the ultimate freedom- choice.

titanium
good point TH.........

smokymtnsteve
09-13-2005, 19:58
On the marge of Lake LeBarge?.


ain't that far to Lake LeBarge....but much closer to the MALEMUTE SALON in Ester AK...where the Robert Service show is called "SERVICE WITH SMILE" :D

smokymtnsteve
09-13-2005, 20:06
just to chuck in my *hem* two cents (cause who else HASN'T?)



weary- I have read the OT and the NT (I don't claim to have abe lincolned it though- 3 times right thru before he was ten) And I know about God's wrath. There is no scrap of bad in him- so he demands punishment for badness.

it's because of God's wrath that it is all about love. Everyone screws up. This is a debt to pay. God WILL exact punishment. However, he loved us so much that his son Jesus suffered a horrible death in our place. All you have to do is acknowlege that your debt has been paid. However, God loved us so much he gave us the ultimate freedom- choice.

titanium


I would never accept blood or the death of an innocent for the payment of a debt...accepting blood/death as a payment for a debt is something that I find
immoral.....not to mention disgusting...

Alligator
09-13-2005, 20:54
oh horsecrappy............Gee whiz, of your last 50 posts, 3 have been about hiking......blah, blah, blah.......bunch of malarky.......horsecrappy.

titanium_hiker
09-13-2005, 21:18
sin is so bad that blood and death are needed to atone. it will be yours- if you choose to pay your own debt. Sin is THAT bad. it carries a death sentance. It's like the human race is on deathrow- someone pure died in all of our places- you just have to accept that.

I feel that I have expressed myself in full- I do not want to argue- just give my evidence. So, I will not be bible thumping - but if you have any legit questions, just ask.

titanium

Just Jeff
09-13-2005, 21:26
Once upon a time, men (and women) worshipped spirits of nature...the sun, wind, trees, rain, etc.

Then, some bold mind explained the water cycle, meteorology, astronomy, etc. Any worship of natural spirits became "heathen" and was stamped out in favor of "more civilized" religions. The kind that say illness is caused by evil spirits, and you can bleed them out.

Eventually, bold minds discovered that germs cause illness, and they invented medicine and taught the importance of hygiene. Talk of evil spirits causing illness fell out of vogue and was replaced by more progressive types of religion. The kind that say the earth is the center of the universe.

Lo and behold, another bold mind explained that the sun is the center of our solar system, and he was nearly put to death over it.

Once men accepted that we were not the center of the universe, that idea also fell by the wayside of popular religious thought...along with the other things men couldn't explain throughout history.

What's left for science to explain? Our creation. Now men search for this answer through religion and mysticism...because we don't have any better explanation at the moment, and surely man can't find the answer on his own...

See a trend?

I find hope in the human race. I EXIST. That's enough reason for me to accept that joy should exist with me, and I refuse to feel guilty about it. I refuse to feel guilty and shamed about something I had no role in, and I refuse to be held responsible for the actions of another person over whom I have no influence.

I am capable of creating joy, simply because "I AM" and for no other reason. I refuse to give credit for the joy that I create to some mystic entity. I owe my joy to no one (though I share it willingly with many).

I refuse to relinquish any bit of responsibility for my own actions to any mystic influence. Whether that responsibility is credit or blame, I earned it through my actions.

I refuse to think that a just god cares more about what I say than what I do. Actions speak louder than words, and l refuse to think that a just god would overlook the joy I brought into the world, and the morality I held as my life's purpose, and damn me to eternal fire simply because I had too much faith in mankind to pay him lip service.

But as I said (and as part of the faith I have in mankind), that's only my path and I'm not so arrogant as to claim it's the only way, and that you'll end up in hell if you refuse to believe as I do. If all men believed that way, we'd still be burying family when a shot of pennicililn would save them.

A moral life does not necessarily equate to a life encumbered by other peoples' belief systems.

But that's just me (and what turned into a novel-length post). :)

smokymtnsteve
09-13-2005, 23:59
sin is so bad that blood and death are needed to atone. it will be yours- if you choose to pay your own debt. Sin is THAT bad. it carries a death sentance. It's like the human race is on deathrow- someone pure died in all of our places- you just have to accept that.

I feel that I have expressed myself in full- I do not want to argue- just give my evidence. So, I will not be bible thumping - but if you have any legit questions, just ask.

titanium

you yourself TH may be such a bad evil person that U need to have a innocent person's death and blood to pay for your evil-doings..

I myself am a really nice guy,,,,never go out to hurt anyone,,try to help anyone I can,,now if this suppossed god of yours can't go along and get along like a nice guy and wants my blood ..well then he'll jist have to do that...cause I don't, nor will I ever support the torture and murder of innocents for ANY reason....I do not now nor will I ever accept death and blood for the payment of a debt ..I am a much more moral and forgiving person than that,,,,,this god thing of yours sounds evil....maybe U should reconsider following a cult that worships such a blood and death hungry being.

wolf of zen
09-14-2005, 02:23
" Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others. "

- Works for me. :)

TOW
09-14-2005, 05:43
Gee whiz, of your last 50 posts, 3 have been about hiking......blah, blah, blah.......bunch of malarky.......horsecrappy. so? is there a right and wrong way of preforming your actions here? i mean, like are there rules posted here to do or not to do?

TOW
09-14-2005, 05:49
Once upon a time, men (and women) worshipped spirits of nature...the sun, wind, trees, rain, etc.

Then, some bold mind explained the water cycle, meteorology, astronomy, etc. Any worship of natural spirits became "heathen" and was stamped out in favor of "more civilized" religions. The kind that say illness is caused by evil spirits, and you can bleed them out.

Eventually, bold minds discovered that germs cause illness, and they invented medicine and taught the importance of hygiene. Talk of evil spirits causing illness fell out of vogue and was replaced by more progressive types of religion. The kind that say the earth is the center of the universe.

Lo and behold, another bold mind explained that the sun is the center of our solar system, and he was nearly put to death over it.

Once men accepted that we were not the center of the universe, that idea also fell by the wayside of popular religious thought...along with the other things men couldn't explain throughout history.

What's left for science to explain? Our creation. Now men search for this answer through religion and mysticism...because we don't have any better explanation at the moment, and surely man can't find the answer on his own...

See a trend?

I find hope in the human race. I EXIST. That's enough reason for me to accept that joy should exist with me, and I refuse to feel guilty about it. I refuse to feel guilty and shamed about something I had no role in, and I refuse to be held responsible for the actions of another person over whom I have no influence.

I am capable of creating joy, simply because "I AM" and for no other reason. I refuse to give credit for the joy that I create to some mystic entity. I owe my joy to no one (though I share it willingly with many).

I refuse to relinquish any bit of responsibility for my own actions to any mystic influence. Whether that responsibility is credit or blame, I earned it through my actions.

I refuse to think that a just god cares more about what I say than what I do. Actions speak louder than words, and l refuse to think that a just god would overlook the joy I brought into the world, and the morality I held as my life's purpose, and damn me to eternal fire simply because I had too much faith in mankind to pay him lip service.

But as I said (and as part of the faith I have in mankind), that's only my path and I'm not so arrogant as to claim it's the only way, and that you'll end up in hell if you refuse to believe as I do. If all men believed that way, we'd still be burying family when a shot of pennicililn would save them.

A moral life does not necessarily equate to a life encumbered by other peoples' belief systems.

But that's just me (and what turned into a novel-length post). :)
well, you sure did give me some food for thought...........i like the way you think...........actions do speak louder than words............

TOW
09-14-2005, 05:53
" Work out your own salvation. Do not depend on others. "

- Works for me. :)yes, that is good......but when you are happy in your own salvation and you are sharing the liter side of it, then some one comes along and steps on your canary, you do have the right to stand up and defend whether anyone agrees with you or not.............

titanium_hiker
09-14-2005, 07:47
smoky- by the world's standards- I am a really nice person too. but I have lied, and what goes on in my head sometimes- shiver. Sin does not have to be as bad as murder.

I'm not hungry for blood. It's a difficult concept to reconcile, but with out wrath God would not be love.

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (paul said it) - think about your faith- don't jump to conclusions.

titanium

dougmeredith
09-14-2005, 08:18
so? is there a right and wrong way of preforming your actions here? i mean, like are there rules posted here to do or not to do?
I don't know about rules, but if the forum is called "Hiking Humor" you might consider that a hint as to what threads it is appropriate to start.

Doug

frieden
09-14-2005, 10:06
No, Alligator, I got what I asked for. I was not upset that you posted, but tried (poorly) to explain that my intent was not to lecture. That said, the post was also 100% my fault. I was baited, and took it - defending myself, when I didn't need to. Sorry, all.

I don't think I'm a bad, evil person, but I wouldn't want to be without Jesus. I have found him to be my way. It is comforting to me to know he is always with me. I don't hold with organized religion, though. I was kicked out of my church, because I'm a Democrat. Apparently, caring about the environment makes me non-Christian. That's just one example of thousands that the Church does that I would consider non-Christian (if you allow the definition of Christian to mean follower of Christ), and so would the Bible. They aren't bad people; they're just people. I believe there are 2 Commandments, not 10; harm none; karma is real. Every religion has truths in it. My beliefs are closer to the Old Ways, than anything, I guess. I don't think nature is something "out there" that we have to control. We are a part of it, and it is a part of us. The more we try to destroy it, the more we will be destroyed. Scientists say that we only use 10% of our brain, but I think it is less than that. Common sense is no longer common.

I don't know that being "saved", means we won't have to pay for our sins. I'm probably wrong on this issue, but the Bible states that, if you give your life to God through Jesus, you will have eternal life - you won't die. Well, here, you can live in a nice house, or a jail cell, but you are still "alive". I don't see anything wrong with living your life helping people (without becoming a doormat), and trying not to hurt anyone - regardless of religion. I think that's all we can do, and everything will be worked out in the end.

Alligator
09-14-2005, 10:13
I don't know about rules, but if the forum is called "Hiking Humor" you might consider that a hint as to what threads it is appropriate to start.

DougExactly. The site owners have taken the time to create a hierarchy for the forums. Wait, let me say this so you might get it.

Sgt. Rock and Attroll try to keep this site organized...........they do this in a series of folders....these folders have names........threads (a series of posts) are expected to follow these names........putting horsecrappy in the folders not related to the names is a no-no...........in general, spam (too much horsecrappy), is also bad internet etiquette (another no-no, bad boy).........

Alligator
09-14-2005, 10:24
No, Alligator, I got what I asked for. I was not upset that you posted, but tried (poorly) to explain that my intent was not to lecture. That said, the post was also 100% my fault. I was baited, and took it - defending myself, when I didn't need to. Sorry, all.

....Look, don't sweat it. Welcome to Whiteblaze, there are a lot of other nice people here, don't worry about me giving you a hard time.

I follow the rest of what you have to say, but a better place for that is over in the Non-AT Forums.

frieden
09-14-2005, 10:24
Maybe, a thread should be started "Hiking & Faith".

Alligator
09-14-2005, 10:29
Maybe, a thread should be started "Hiking & Faith".Do you like gory movies?

frieden
09-14-2005, 10:33
Nope, too much like reality. I have enough of that.

Alligator
09-14-2005, 10:42
My advice is that if you are interested in that topic, that you visit the site mentioned earlier by One Leg.

Nightwalker
09-14-2005, 11:27
"It's all about LOVE," claims Frank L.

One can find anything one wants in the "Bible." But anyone who thinks the Christian-Jewish Bible is "all about love." simply hasn't read significantly in the Old Testament and has skipped a few New Testament passages.
Bob, I love you. How about that? (blinking eyes coquettishly)

You can pick and choose all through and find anything you want. It's important to take it as a whole. You and I can't discuss this topic without arguing. We've proved it in the past.

Nightwalker
09-14-2005, 11:31
They may have learned a lesson. Doesn't that bring a smile?
There was no closure, and I behaved badly. I let my anger get the best of me. It was a time when I was having daily migraines, and I was acting like a real fool.

So, no, no smile in this case.

Alligator
09-14-2005, 11:48
There was no closure, and I behaved badly. I let my anger get the best of me. It was a time when I was having daily migraines, and I was acting like a real fool.

So, no, no smile in this case.No Smile:(. I still think They did some reflection (If you are not referring to Weary, as you seem to be in LOVE:p ). Perhaps that person will have an opportunity to read your words.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2005, 18:03
Bob, I love you. How about that? (blinking eyes coquettishly)

You can pick and choose all through and find anything you want. It's important to take it as a whole. You and I can't discuss this topic without arguing. We've proved it in the past.

I LUV U 2 Frank...

so what... U got a little edgy during the middle of a Migraine ...that's not sin...that's jist human...

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2005, 18:24
smoky- by the world's standards- I am a really nice person too. but I have lied, and what goes on in my head sometimes- shiver. Sin does not have to be as bad as murder.

I'm not hungry for blood. It's a difficult concept to reconcile, but with out wrath God would not be love.

work out your own salvation with fear and trembling (paul said it) - think about your faith- don't jump to conclusions.

titanium


think about your faith.....don't jump to conclusions..what if U R wrong,,,and this blood thirsty monster story is not correct,



salvation??? fear and trembling??? who needs that.....


perhaps U need salvation.....what with the evil thoughts U have and all...but some of us don't have the need for salvation...

nor would we find a bloodthirsty god a source of salvation.

titanium_hiker
09-14-2005, 18:39
ya gotta remember God is Love too, steve. You know, if you don't feel the need for salvation, that makes me sad, but I'm not gonna push you on the issue anymore.
Have a good one.

:cool:

titanium

TOW
09-14-2005, 18:54
I don't know about rules, but if the forum is called "Hiking Humor" you might consider that a hint as to what threads it is appropriate to start.

Dougyou got a good point doug and perhaps i will take that into consideration in my future posts, but humor is humor no matter how you lable it.............

TOW
09-14-2005, 19:02
Exactly. The site owners have taken the time to create a hierarchy for the forums. Wait, let me say this so you might get it.

Sgt. Rock and Attroll try to keep this site organized...........they do this in a series of folders....these folders have names........threads (a series of posts) are expected to follow these names........putting horsecrappy in the folders not related to the names is a no-no...........in general, spam (too much horsecrappy), is also bad internet etiquette (another no-no, bad boy).........yea i know i'm a bad boy, some things never change.........so tell me alligator, are you the official spokesman for attroll and sgt rock, or have you just taken it upon yourself to explain what you think they mean and how you think they ought to run the site?

i mean, has the law been laid down to you in some sort of fashion and they have christianed you with their right handed leki stick and put you in charge of correcting those of us who seem to get off sidetrack from the way things ought to be done around here, or is this just your own thoughts on this subject?

please tell me, inquiring minds would like to know..........

Lone Wolf
09-14-2005, 19:03
So Jesus walks into a Motel 6 one night, slaps down 3 pegs and says,"Hey, can you put me up for the night?".

saimyoji
09-14-2005, 19:27
Thats horrible. :eek::D

dougmeredith
09-14-2005, 19:54
No, that's funny!

Doug

Alligator
09-14-2005, 21:19
yea i know i'm a bad boy, some things never change.........so tell me alligator, are you the official spokesman for attroll and sgt rock, or have you just taken it upon yourself to explain what you think they mean and how you think they ought to run the site?

i mean, has the law been laid down to you in some sort of fashion and they have christianed you with their right handed leki stick and put you in charge of correcting those of us who seem to get off sidetrack from the way things ought to be done around here, or is this just your own thoughts on this subject?

please tell me, inquiring minds would like to know..........Y A W N, ...m a y b e ...I s h o u l d ...g o ...s l o w e r.... T h e... N o n A T ...F o r u m ...w a s ...c r e a t e d ...b y ....R o c k... & ...T r o l l ...f o r ...h o r s e c r a p p y... l i k e... y o u... p o s t.... T h a t... i s... s i m p l e... s i t e... h i s t o r y.... C h e c k... t h e... a r c h i v e s...

TOW
09-14-2005, 22:07
Y A W N, ...m a y b e ...I s h o u l d ...g o ...s l o w e r.... T h e... N o n A T ...F o r u m ...w a s ...c r e a t e d ...b y ....R o c k... & ...T r o l l ...f o r ...h o r s e c r a p p y... l i k e... y o u... p o s t.... T h a t... i s... s i m p l e... s i t e... h i s t o r y.... C h e c k... t h e... a r c h i v e s...
needless to say some of us are slower than others just like you are demonstrating, humor is humor no matter how you lable it...........i am a hiker and i posted this in the hiking humor archives...........now have you any further analysis on the subject?

Alligator
09-14-2005, 22:24
maybe
if
I
just
put
one
word
per
line.
This

i am a hiker and i posted this in the hiking humor archivesis
the
most
pitiful
argument
I
have
ever
heard.
TOW
says
it's
so
therefore
it
is.

TOW
09-14-2005, 22:31
hahahahaha............it is stupid i must admit alligator............

Nightwalker
09-14-2005, 22:33
No Smile:(. I still think They did some reflection (If you are not referring to Weary, as you seem to be in LOVE:p ). Perhaps that person will have an opportunity to read your words.
Nah, it wasn't Weary. Weary's just a cool old opinionated guy that I'm real fond of. I used to argue with him a lot, but that was way back when.

Alligator
09-14-2005, 22:36
Looks like we'll just have to settle this over a game of Scrabble.

Alligator
09-14-2005, 22:38
Nah, it wasn't Weary. Weary's just a cool old opinionated guy that I'm real fond of. I used to argue with him a lot, but that was way back when.She who shall not be named LOL.

TOW
09-14-2005, 22:46
Looks like we'll just have to settle this over a game of Scrabble.i know this wasn't meant for me but i'd play you in a heartbeat, i play a game at least seven times a week.........

Alligator
09-14-2005, 22:50
Sure it was TOW, scrabbleholic. But I must say my master knows all of the two letter words, plays both in American English and GB English, and knows how to spell the entire Greek alphabet, as she is Greek.

Some time in the future we will meet, and I will have my travel set.

smokymtnsteve
09-14-2005, 22:50
So Jesus walks into a Motel 6 one night, slaps down 3 pegs and says,"Hey, can you put me up for the night?".


I hear he doesn't do that walking on the water trick anymore ..what with those holey feet...

U know how he did that trick inthe first place???...knew where the rocks were.

Alligator
09-14-2005, 23:27
She who shall not be named LOL.Or did I:eek: . First letter of one name is last in the other. Sorry to play Franklooper, sometimes I can't help myself. It's been that way ever since I was a little internegator.

attroll
09-15-2005, 00:45
OK. Lets make this easier for everyone to understand. The hiking humor was intended for just that, hiking humor and jokes about hiking.

As soon as I get done posting this message here. I will be creating a forum in the Non-At forums section titled Humor or somthing to that effect. That way from now on all jokes that are not related to the AT or hiking can be posted there.

SGT Rock
09-15-2005, 02:44
Good idea troll.

TOW
09-15-2005, 05:15
Sure it was TOW, scrabbleholic. But I must say my master knows all of the two letter words, plays both in American English and GB English, and knows how to spell the entire Greek alphabet, as she is Greek.

Some time in the future we will meet, and I will have my travel set.well, you may surely beat me hands down, but i'd still enjoy a game with you........

TOW
09-15-2005, 05:18
OK. Lets make this easier for everyone to understand. The hiking humor was intended for just that, hiking humor and jokes about hiking.

As soon as I get done posting this message here. I will be creating a forum in the Non-At forums section titled Humor or somthing to that effect. That way from now on all jokes that are not related to the AT or hiking can be posted there.
thankyou, and i will abide by your rule.....if i get out of line, then i will accept the results.............

shades of blue
09-15-2005, 07:07
So Jesus walks into a Motel 6 one night, slaps down 3 pegs and says,"Hey, can you put me up for the night?".
Wolf....I know you're just trying to stir up trouble...and I may be just showing my ignorance....but I don't get it at all.
Peace

dougmeredith
09-15-2005, 07:59
Wolf....I know you're just trying to stir up trouble...and I may be just showing my ignorance....but I don't get it at all.
Peace
Replace "peg" with "nail" and try again.

Doug

Rain Man
09-15-2005, 15:49
OK. Lets make this easier for everyone to understand. The hiking humor was intended for just that, hiking humor and jokes about hiking....

God bless you, Rick!!!!!!!!

Rain:sunMan

.

smokymtnsteve
09-15-2005, 15:50
Wolf....I know you're just trying to stir up trouble...and I may be just showing my ignorance....but I don't get it at all.
Peace

Jesus was just wanting to hang around ..get it?

shades of blue
09-15-2005, 17:04
I think I understand now....ouch.

digger51
09-15-2005, 17:15
OK wolf, for that one my next three fillups will be at a shell station.

TOW
09-15-2005, 20:52
yeah wolf, all of us around here in this part of alabama have quit purchasing gas from exxon or their affiliates.............

Just Jeff
09-16-2005, 00:20
I think I missed something with the talk about gas stations, but if this is about boycotting certain companies that buy from the Middle East, read this link:

http://www.snopes.com/politics/gasoline/saudigas.asp

digger51
09-16-2005, 01:44
No Jeff, just a mild dig at L Wolf for his joke. Nothing serious about my comment. In fact I hope to see Wolf in the spring as i stop by the shop in Damascus.

Just Jeff
09-16-2005, 03:43
Wouldn't have offended me if it was something serious...I was just passing on some info about a stupid email hoax I got the other day. I thought you guys were talking about the same thing, but it looks like I was mistaken.

No biggie.

dougmeredith
09-16-2005, 07:45
I think I missed something with the talk about gas stations
In other threads Lone Wolf has made reference to owning Exxon stock.

Doug

Skyline
09-16-2005, 09:42
I think you can have a relationship with God if you want to, without having a relationship with all these judgemental types who claim to speak FOR God.

That would include about 90% of clergy, and most of the mere mortals with their own (often contradictory) agendas who are credited with writing many of the books in the Bible. IMHO these people were just as likely to have been pushing a "political" agenda as present-day hacks like Rick Santorum, Karl Rove, Pat Robertson--or even Michael Moore.

The Bible has been reinterpreted and translated so many times that it is hard for me to take what passes for the Bible today literally. It is relevant as a very disjointed novel, with a few good lessons for humanity sprinkled among the contradictions.

There is no doubt in my mind that there is a higher power, and that Jesus was an important historical figure. From all I've ever read, I would assume today he'd be branded a bleeding heart liberal and would be blasted nightly on the "fair and balanced" Fox News. I do not see him as a very judgemental person, unlike many of the people who claim to speak FOR him and/or his "Father" or the "Holy Spirit."

So, if Jesus was/is indeed the son of God, sent to Earth to teach us and die for our sins, I cannot in good conscience heed the rantings of the Religious Right. I do, however, pay close attention to what they do and say because they are, often, dangerous.

Skyline
09-16-2005, 10:30
You can pick and choose all through and find anything you want. It's important to take it as a whole.


So, if one book in the Bible says something is BLACK, and another book in the Bible says something is WHITE, I guess taking it as a whole leaves us with GRAY?

Just Jeff
09-16-2005, 12:33
I think you can have a relationship with God if you want to, without having a relationship with all these judgemental types who claim to speak FOR God.
Amen.

xxxxx

Nightwalker
09-16-2005, 14:03
So, if one book in the Bible says something is BLACK, and another book in the Bible says something is WHITE, I guess taking it as a whole leaves us with GRAY?
Yo, dude, I'm not your enemy. Don't confuse me with the types you were speaking about.

Of course, if you've got a bone to pick, it might as well be with me as anybody else, I guess. I'm just not down with the Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell crowd.

:banana

Skyline
09-16-2005, 15:03
Yo, dude, I'm not your enemy. Don't confuse me with the types you were speaking about.

Of course, if you've got a bone to pick, it might as well be with me as anybody else, I guess. I'm just not down with the Pat Robertson/Jerry Falwell crowd.

:banana


If my reply convinced you that I was lumping you in with the Falwells, my apologies. I was simply responding to one sentence in your post that didn't quite make sense to me, but like everything in this thread--it's only an opinion. Peace.

TOW
09-16-2005, 17:02
[QUOTE=Skyline]I think you can have a relationship with God if you want to, without having a relationship with all these judgemental types who claim to speak FOR God.


I do not see him as a very judgemental person, unlike many of the people who claim to speak FOR him and/or his "Father" or the "Holy Spirit."

QUOTE]

let me ask you one question, what exactly doeas the bible say in the new testament about judging others?

one more question, what was Jesus doing when He ran the money changers out of the temple?

Lone Wolf
09-16-2005, 17:13
JC was Jewish and you know what they say...

Ratbert
09-16-2005, 17:58
JC was Jewish and you know what they say...Hey, a Kinky Friedman fan! Guess I'll need to buy you a beer if we ever cross paths!

Skyline
09-16-2005, 18:38
[QUOTE=The Only Wanderer]let me ask you one question, what exactly doeas the bible say in the new testament about judging others?[QUOTE]




Why do you limit your argument to the New Testament? The Bible they use in the church I used to go to has both the Old and New Testaments. I don't think they disavow the Old Testament.

Lone Wolf
09-16-2005, 18:42
Who is Kinky Friedman? Seriously.

MOWGLI
09-16-2005, 18:45
A friend of Don Imus. A writer & comic who is running for Governor of Texas.

Lone Wolf
09-16-2005, 19:05
Does he love Jesus? Money? Jews?

Ratbert
09-16-2005, 19:15
Who is Kinky Friedman? Seriously.He's a singer / songwriter / humorist.

I thought you were referring to his song, "They Don't Make Jews Like Jesus Anymore."

Tell you what; I'll still buy you a beer if our paths ever cross.

Lugnut
09-16-2005, 19:17
A friend of Don Imus. A writer & comic who is running for Governor of Texas.


I, for one,hope he wins! He really is a serious candidate with some good ideas. The "establishment" is opposed which is another reason to wish him the best. :D

smokymtnsteve
09-16-2005, 19:25
Because the religious establishment of his time , joined forces with the government.

Nightwalker
09-16-2005, 20:01
If my reply convinced you that I was lumping you in with the Falwells, my apologies. I was simply responding to one sentence in your post that didn't quite make sense to me, but like everything in this thread--it's only an opinion. Peace.
Sorry, I get a bit over-sensitive at times. There are so many folks that use God for their own zselfish purposes, and those seem to be the only ones that get noticed by the general public.

TOW
09-16-2005, 21:30
Why do you limit your argument to the New Testament? The Bible they use in the church I used to go to has both the Old and New Testaments. I don't think they disavow the Old Testament.okay then, what does the bible say about judging others?

Rain Man
09-17-2005, 14:45
Why did Jesus die? Because the religious establishment of his time, joined forces with the government.

Steve, you be the pithiest poster on WhiteBlaze, bar none!

And I ain't got no lisp, no sirree!

Rain:sunMan

.

smokymtnsteve
09-17-2005, 16:46
Thank you Rain man...if one has read that book one would know that the religious leaders of that day did in fact join forces with the government to have this Jesus cruxified... as the religious leaderrs of that day did not have the right or power to enforce thier beliefs and needed the goverment to do so for them.


seems that we can draw some correlations with current events...and is the reason that we need separation of church and state. even though I am not a beliver in the "divinity" of Jesus I think that the lesson of the government and religion joining forces is made quite evident in the story.

TOW
09-17-2005, 19:44
Thank you Rain man...if one has read that book one would know that the religious leaders of that day did in fact join forces with the government to have this Jesus cruxified... as the religious leaderrs of that day did not have the right or power to enforce thier beliefs and needed the goverment to do so for them.


seems that we can draw some correlations with current events...and is the reason that we need separation of church and state. even though I am not a beliver in the "divinity" of Jesus I think that the lesson of the government and religion joining forces is made quite evident in the story.
you are correct, it was the sanhedrin sect that crucified Jesus............the Roman Govt tried to stay out of it................and i agree with you, we do need seperation of church and state, the bible is specific about that.............

smokymtnsteve
09-18-2005, 00:15
actually according to NT the Roman gov't was in charge of the executions... the sanhedrin had no legal rights to perform capitol punishment. even though ole Pilate did wash his hands,,,but the romans performed the deed according to the story book.

smokymtnsteve
09-18-2005, 00:17
............and i agree with you, we do need seperation of church and state, the bible is specific about that.............


not really TOW....chapter and verse please about separation of C/S in the BABBLE.

TOW
09-18-2005, 01:27
actually according to NT the Roman gov't was in charge of the executions... the sanhedrin had no legal rights to perform capitol punishment. even though ole Pilate did wash his hands,,,but the romans performed the deed according to the story book.they did.......

TOW
09-18-2005, 01:29
not really TOW....chapter and verse please about separation of C/S in the BABBLE.your gonna have to give me a day or so and i'll give you the verse i am thinking about, can't recall right off hand exactly what it says, but i will find what i am looking for by tomorrow....thanks for asking me about it..........

Heater
09-18-2005, 01:50
Do you have any idea how little you're helping the cause of Christ?
Yeah, I think I know what you are trying to say.

A reference here, a joke there... another reference or "quote" inserted in every other response adds up. It gets old really quick and drives people away from the message he is trying to convey.

TOW
09-18-2005, 02:04
Yeah, I think I know what you are trying to say.

A reference here, a joke there... another reference or "quote" inserted in every other response adds up. It gets old really quick and drives people away from the message he is trying to convey.it may be driving only you away..........have you ever considered that.............how do you know what the whole is percieving from me?

shades of blue
09-18-2005, 08:07
Wanderer...
If you want to know what most people think about your threads dealing with Christianity...do a poll. You could even have a non-partisian person create it...show it to you and SMS before it is published. Then you would have an idea about how most people feel about this. My .02

TOW
09-18-2005, 10:05
Wanderer...
If you want to know what most people think about your threads dealing with Christianity...do a poll. You could even have a non-partisian person create it...show it to you and SMS before it is published. Then you would have an idea about how most people feel about this. My .02
the truth of the matter is that i am not attempting to push my beliefs onto anyone.........that is simply how some, and a very small few who have voiced their opinions, percieve me when i post things here....

furthermore i am not out to save the world, i cannot save anyone, that is not my job..........but when prompted i will stand by what i believe come hell or high water..........and yes, i wish i could give everyone what was so freely given to me.........i want to share this with the whole world....

for so very long in my life i did not or could not believe that there was a creator............but ever since that night out there at the Rod Hollow Shelter on the AT in Hurricane Isabel on the night of Sept 17th, 2003 i have no doubt that He lives....

i'm not a big Bible book thumper, even though i do read it regularly....along with that i am not a member of any one church or church order..........i simply believe that "I" need to live what i believe and reach out to others.........

i don't care what a person believes in, or what a person sets out to do in life, there are always going to be a certain few that come along and rip you for what you believe or for what you do, that's life..........along with that, they are going to attempt to persuade others to get on their bandwagons.........

so i am not going to do a poll.............i don't have a need to know.....

you know what the irony of the whole thing is? at one time in my life i would get my feathers ruffled even at a small hint of God from someone..........so i guess you could say i am reaping what i have sown..........you see, i too believe in karma...........

TOW
09-18-2005, 21:22
hey steve i am still researching what i wanted to share with you, just a little more time and i'll nail the verse down........i want to thankyou ahead of time for your patience with me...........

TOW
09-18-2005, 21:38
well steve i guess i was wrong in my previous statement, my apologies...........i just wish i could find what i am looking for, time for me to dive headlong into the word for awhile...


1 Cor 12:28 - And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

TOW
09-18-2005, 21:39
i do think it is wise that as church leaders go, they should keep themselves in the church...billy graham never had a problem doing that//////

Lilred
09-18-2005, 22:14
TOW,

Were you looking for this passage?

Luke 20:25 "And He said to them, 'Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God.'

Of course though, that is taken out of context. It was the Sadducees that were trying to trick Him and find contradictions in his teachings when He said that.

On the other hand, there is always this verse:

Psalms 33:12 "Blessed is the Nation whose God is the Lord."

Separation of church and state has, imho, been distorted in the latter part of the 20th century. It was intended to keep the government from endorsing any one particular denomination of religion. It was never intended to remove God from government. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Diests, Native Americans, even Satan Worshipers all believe in God. Atheists are trying to do to people who believe in God exactly what they claim believers are trying to do to them. They want all reference of God taken out of any governmental agency. In other words, they want the government to endorse atheism. That's how I see it.

Rain Man
09-19-2005, 05:58
.. Atheists are trying to do to people who believe in God exactly what they claim believers are trying to do to them. They want all reference of God taken out of any governmental agency. In other words, they want the government to endorse atheism. That's how I see it.

No, Mary, I think you are wrong. I'm no atheist, but if atheists were trying to do what fundamentalist Christians have succeeded in doing, then our money, the Pledge of Allegiance to our FLAG, each public building and ceremony, and each school morning loudspeaker announcement would have to include some mandatory clause denying God's existence. That's a huge difference in my mind from what you said.

From my point of view, it's more fair to say that atheists want government to be neutral, not to endorse a religious sect, which means not cramming a fundamentalist Christian concept of God down their throats. That seems eminently fair to me. How many allegedly "fair" minded religious Americans want a reference to Allah (or any other form of God's name than the "Christian" name) on our money, or in our Pledge of Allegiance, or at public school functions? None that I know of. Fundamentalists want government to endorse one and only one concept of God, THEIRS. No wonder atheists rebel. In my mind, the only mystery is why more true Christian patriots don't rebel at the unChristian supremalism of fundamentalists.

Rain:sunMan

.

Alligator
09-19-2005, 09:45
Very well said Rain :sun Man. Lilredmg's statements were definitely not equivalent.

Tha Wookie
09-19-2005, 10:03
I agree also. Atheism, by definition, is not a religion. I've sat and watched Andy Stanley try and play words games out of this fact, but it's the truth.


The problem is the group mentality: Christians are so used to putting everybody in sterotypical groupings (new agers, christians, athiests, ect.) that many of us can't even fathom the concept of "people who don't prescribe to religious beliefs". Intsead, its "athiests", as if athiests have one way of looking at things like most of the sheep in the Church do.

The reason for this is because its taught down the line, as a form of control. The pastors and self-righteous find it easiest to attack threats of their power over the flock in one broad swoop, instead of considering the individual views that are as vaired as the people that hold them. That would just be too much to argue, and if you're going to be controlling a group of people, the last thing you want is them thinking too much (just look at the military).

This also explains the extreme right's Code of Villification. When there's a threat, you stick as many people as you can in a category and make them look like the devil. You make them look like they're all the same, when in reality, they never are. But in the ultimate irony, it's the finger pointers who are more the same than the scattered opposition. They get the talking points from their authority figures (middlemen AKA preachers, the White House, and AM radio) and pass them along in loyal blind duty. But they just dont understand that not everybody thinks like sheep.

Skyline
09-19-2005, 10:21
Separation of church and state has, imho, been distorted in the latter part of the 20th century. It was intended to keep the government from endorsing any one particular denomination of religion. It was never intended to remove God from government. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Diests, Native Americans, even Satan Worshipers all believe in God. Atheists are trying to do to people who believe in God exactly what they claim believers are trying to do to them. They want all reference of God taken out of any governmental agency. In other words, they want the government to endorse atheism. That's how I see it.

A few atheists may indeed want to strike all references to "God" from the public sector, but there is a larger group of people, most of whom are NOT atheists or even agnostics, who simply don't want a particular religion's dogma (in this case, usually Christianity) to unduly influence laws we all must live by.

Judeo-Christian dogma (and in other parts of the world, Islamic dogma) is sometimes used as a weapon to oppress people. I believe this is why our nation's framers wanted so very much to separate church and state. Many of them knew, from first-hand experience, how bad it can get if a faith's "rules" get mingled too much with a nation's "laws." Ask any mixed racial American couple before the 1970s. Ask any gay man or woman today. Ask anyone not of the majority religion, anytime in our history.

It's not about endorsing atheism. It's about live-and-let-live. And that includes letting Christian fundamentalists live how they want to--so long as they don't try to force the rest of us to follow in their footsteps.

Just Jeff
09-19-2005, 10:39
The establishment clause prevents the govt from creating any law expressing the "establishment" of an official religion.

Putting "One Nation Under God" into an official ceremony necessarily establishes that our nation believes in a god. Whether you believe in Him or not, the state has established that, in its view, God exists. This is unconstitutional, and I think the recent decision will be held up by the higher courts.

Whether it's right or wrong, that's what our Constitution says. I guess the question is how badly does America want to keep it (and other things like it...prayer in school, before football games, etc).

Badly enough to change our Constitution?

That's the day I resign my commission, because I joined the military to protect "freedom and justice for all." Even though, as Wookie says, I don't know how to think because I'm in the military. :p

Tha Wookie
09-19-2005, 14:26
That's the day I resign my commission, because I joined the military to protect "freedom and justice for all." Even though, as Wookie says, I don't know how to think because I'm in the military. :p
Oh, come on, Jeff.... :D I never said people in the military are any less thinkers than anyone else -look at St. Rock. What I was saying was that the miltary as a people managment system is an example of several people in control passing orders down a line, that are not to be disobeyed. This is fine when one is trying to coordinate a strategic attack, but not fine when one is supposedly interpretting the Bible and using it in twisted ways to control members of a congregation or television audience.

But I'm sure you knew i meant anyway.....;)

Just Jeff
09-19-2005, 15:10
But I'm sure you knew i meant anyway.....;)
Yeah, I was just giving you a hard time. You're right about the orders...sometimes you have to follow them because they're part of a bigger plan that you're not privy to. They don't seem to make sense, but usually they do (at least to somebody).
And sometimes they don't! :jump

Either way, when people resort to bullying for any philosophical question, I find it's usually because either the idea isn't strong enough to stand on its own, or the person doesn't understand the idea well enough to defend it. Most fundamentalists (of any sect) fall into the latter, I would think.

smokymtnsteve
09-19-2005, 16:35
No, Mary, I think you are wrong. I'm no atheist, but if atheists were trying to do what fundamentalist Christians have succeeded in doing, then our money, the Pledge of Allegiance to our FLAG, each public building and ceremony, and each school morning loudspeaker announcement would have to include some mandatory clause denying God's existence. That's a huge difference in my mind from what you said.

From my point of view, it's more fair to say that atheists want government to be neutral, not to endorse a religious sect, which means not cramming a fundamentalist Christian concept of God down their throats. That seems eminently fair to me. How many allegedly "fair" minded religious Americans want a reference to Allah (or any other form of God's name than the "Christian" name) on our money, or in our Pledge of Allegiance, or at public school functions? None that I know of. Fundamentalists want government to endorse one and only one concept of God, THEIRS. No wonder atheists rebel. In my mind, the only mystery is why more true Christian patriots don't rebel at the unChristian supremalism of fundamentalists.

Rain:sunMan

.



dat B the truth !!! :banana

Lilred
09-19-2005, 18:40
No, Mary, I think you are wrong. I'm no atheist, but if atheists were trying to do what fundamentalist Christians have succeeded in doing, then our money, the Pledge of Allegiance to our FLAG, each public building and ceremony, and each school morning loudspeaker announcement would have to include some mandatory clause denying God's existence. That's a huge difference in my mind from what you said.


Ok Rain Man, you have a good point there. Fundamentalist Christians, however, are not the ones responsible for engraving references to God in our governmental buildings, or putting it on our money. Most of the founding fathers were Deists.

I can see both sides of this arguement. I was an atheist for 25 years before my conversion. Still, is it right for one person to tell an entire community that they cannot pray for the safety of their football players before a game, when that community is predominantly Christian? Whose rights are being trampled on then?

It reminds me of a story I had read, about a predominantly Christian school that was told they could not say a student led prayer at their graduation because of a recent lawsuit brought against that school district. The students and parents were very upset about this. So, during the speeches at the ceremony, one student got up to make his pre-arranged speech. He stood at the podium for quite a long moment, leaned into the microphone, and sneezed, really loud. The entire student body stood up and said, "God Bless You!"

There is a ton of talk about religious tolerance in today's society, however, I don't see that extended to Christians very much at all.

Tha Wookie
09-19-2005, 19:05
Ok Rain Man, you have a good point there. Fundamentalist Christians, however, are not the ones responsible for engraving references to God in our governmental buildings, or putting it on our money. Most of the founding fathers were Deists.

I can see both sides of this arguement. I was an atheist for 25 years before my conversion. Still, is it right for one person to tell an entire community that they cannot pray for the safety of their football players before a game, when that community is predominantly Christian? Whose rights are being trampled on then?

It reminds me of a story I had read, about a predominantly Christian school that was told they could not say a student led prayer at their graduation because of a recent lawsuit brought against that school district. The students and parents were very upset about this. So, during the speeches at the ceremony, one student got up to make his pre-arranged speech. He stood at the podium for quite a long moment, leaned into the microphone, and sneezed, really loud. The entire student body stood up and said, "God Bless You!"

There is a ton of talk about religious tolerance in today's society, however, I don't see that extended to Christians very much at all.
Obviously, what you still don't understand is that it's not about taking rights away from Christians. You can pray whenever you want. So can I. But I don't want or need the federal, state, or local governements to pay for it, present it, or endorse it.

Imagine you were in a majority muslim school, and they conducted their rituals at a graduation, without a Christian prayer. Would you be fine with that? Would you want that for your children?

i'm sorry, this country may be a watered-down version of democracy, but majorities do not rule when it comes to religious freedom. You and your children should not feel obligated to participate in a religion that you do not adhere to: why should anyone else?

No one's saying you can't pray or have the ten commandments posted on your door. But they are saying that when it comes to the public, everyone's religion should be respected, not just the majority's.

The problem is not that Christians practice their faith. The problem is that they seek to indoctrinate everyone in any forum they can, even if it means pissing on the Bill of Rights.

Just Jeff
09-19-2005, 19:23
this country may be a watered-down version of democracy
Actually, you won't find the word democracy anywhere in the Constitution. We're a Republic, which is exactly what keeps the majority from trampling the rights of the minorities.

TOW
09-19-2005, 19:42
TOW,

Were you looking for this passage?

Luke 20:25 "And He said to them, 'Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God.'

Of course though, that is taken out of context. It was the Sadducees that were trying to trick Him and find contradictions in his teachings when He said that.

On the other hand, there is always this verse:

Psalms 33:12 "Blessed is the Nation whose God is the Lord."

Separation of church and state has, imho, been distorted in the latter part of the 20th century. It was intended to keep the government from endorsing any one particular denomination of religion. It was never intended to remove God from government. Jews, Christians, Muslims, Diests, Native Americans, even Satan Worshipers all believe in God. Atheists are trying to do to people who believe in God exactly what they claim believers are trying to do to them. They want all reference of God taken out of any governmental agency. In other words, they want the government to endorse atheism. That's how I see it.hey Lilred...., it's along those lines....i should find it soon...........thankyou

Skyline
09-19-2005, 21:08
. . .I was an atheist for 25 years before my conversion. Still, is it right for one person to tell an entire community that they cannot pray for the safety of their football players before a game, when that community is predominantly Christian? Whose rights are being trampled on then? . . . There is a ton of talk about religious tolerance in today's society, however, I don't see that extended to Christians very much at all.

Not sure I understand where you get that from, unless it's the odd anecdote here and there. In the USA, no religion is respected and deferred to more than Christianity. Some people actually believe we ARE OFFICIALLY a Christian nation, and still more want us to be.

If it was only student-led prayer and Christmas trees on public property, probably there would not be as much protest. But the Christianists won't stop there. Just like their Fundamentalist Muslim counterparts they won't be satisfied until every last person is abiding by their very strict interpretations of the Bible (or in the latter example, the Koran). This, IMHO, is where the conflict really heats up.

Happy
09-19-2005, 21:47
Smokey Mt. Steve, Good to here from you...miss you here in Atlanta...I've been off the site for awhile...hope Smokey Mt. Red is OK...but you have to get HELP to get your redneck ass SAVED before it creamates or freezes in AK...best wishes...Happy!

smokymtnsteve
09-19-2005, 22:47
thanks happy...red is about 40 miles from me, has a job as lead b'fast cook @ Chena Hot Springs, a really cool resort (esp. @ 50 below :cool: ) CHS uses
geothermal energy to power the resort,,,it's a nice place, big indoor outdoor pool with the natural hot spring water. It is also home to the world famous ICE HOTEL,

Red is at the actual end of the road...big sign out front of where he works says
"ROAD ENDS HERE"

Snow machine or dog team needed to travel futher ....they have a 150 dogs where Red works, I only have 61 dogs,

the leaves have already shown thier color and have fallen off the trees so a very wintry look here already,,,just a few flurries but lots of rain.

Happy
09-19-2005, 23:39
Thanks for the update...I wish I could benefit in some of SMR's cookin?

Let you back to cookin these guys and wish you the BEST! :banana

Rain Man
09-20-2005, 09:03
Ok Rain Man, you have a good point there. Fundamentalist Christians, however, are not the ones responsible for engraving references to God in our governmental buildings, or putting it on our money.

Thank you, Mary, for seeing my point. Also, I'm familiar with the claim, but unfamiliar that any (many?) facts back up this claim that references to God are engraved on public buildings? I personally know of none. Perhaps "Christians" are exagerating the truth? Would Christians do that?


Still, is it right for one person to tell an entire community that they cannot pray for the safety of their football players before a game, when that community is predominantly Christian? Whose rights are being trampled on then?

Sure, I think one person did tell "an entire community" (again, this truth is being exagerated if it's only a majority) that they cannot publicly force their prayers on communities. That individual is Christ Jesus, who told his followers that when they want to pray that they are to enter their closets, shut the doors, and even then to pray in secret.

He also went further and separately told a parable of a man with lots of religiousity who prayed loudly and publicly and Jesus contrasted that loud phony with a quiet humble man. Jesus said the first would go where? While the quiet humble man would go to heaven! Jesus was the one person who warned Christians about praying over loudspeakers at high school football games.

So, yes, one individual can tell (and did tell) a whole big bunch of loud-mouthed, self-pious arrogant people not to pray loudly and publicly.

Thus, in my current opinion, "Christians" who insist on ignoring Christ Jesus' command are questionable Christians. But then many of those same Christians would claim I'm not a Christian. Heck, many of them claim each other won't get into heaven because some sprinkle instead of dunk, and such superiority nonsense.

Furthermore, no one tells this supposedly Christian "entire community" that they can't actually pray. They each can pray all they want, the entire game long if they want. Just like no one tells a child he or she can't pray at school. They just can't have these phony public "prayers" that aren't prayers at all. Christian prayers are silent and secret. Well, if we want to obey Jesus' command.

A far as their phony claims that their rights are being trampled on by living in a constitutional republic with personal and religious freedoms, I have to laugh sadly. Right now our fundamentalist President supposedly speaks with his Father, but not his father. The fundamentalist majority leaders in Congress can't accept invitations fast enough to grovel at evangelical Christian gatherings (while snubbing others). Now our Courts are being packed with only "conservative Christians" (an oxymoron if I ever heard one) and public tax dollars are being handed out to churches. So, "Christians" need to take their crocodile tears elsewhere and not bring them to me, if they want to claim their rights are the ones being trampled on.

Thanks once again for listening, Mary! I appreciate that you've been on two sides. So have I (but my other side wasn't atheist). I bet if you'll still hike with me, God won't strike you with lightning! She'll be aiming for me, if anything. LOL

Rain:sunMan

.

Cookerhiker
09-20-2005, 12:22
Two other things about fundamentalist Christians that amuse if not annoy me:

Re. commandments, Jesus made it clear that love of God and love of neighbor are the greatest commandments. Love of neighbor is spelled out in both John (as a "new" commandment) and in Luke in the parable of the Good Samaritan. So why are fundamentalists so hung up on the 10 Commandments? I rarely hear them preaching, much less practicing, love of neighbor. Of course, the logical necessity of following this tenet would separate them from the political forces of greed with which they've allied themselves. And spare me from the phony piety of "love the sinner, hate the sin"

And then there's the myth that the Founding Fathers were devout, implicitly fundamentalist, God-fearing Christians. While some undoubtedly were Christian (Charles Carroll, for example, was a practicing Roman Catholic), many were Deists or became so - they were products of the Enlightenment. Jefferson was hostile to the organized church his entire life. In his time, he was attacked for his religious views which certainly weren't Christian as we know it since he denied the divinity of Jesus and even redacted his Bible of all gospel passages which didn't make rational sense to him.

Having said all this, I don't deny fundamentalist Christians their place in heaven or the Kingdom of God and I don't claim to be a "better" or "correct" Christian. Would that they'd feel the same towards me.

Skyline
09-20-2005, 13:37
Good post, Cookerhiker, especially calling the Fundies out on "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin." That has always been such a phony, condescending excuse for oppressing people they don't approve of.

And I note in your profile that you finished your 1977>2005 section hike. Congratulations!

Lilred
09-20-2005, 17:49
And then there's the myth that the Founding Fathers were devout, implicitly fundamentalist, God-fearing Christians. While some undoubtedly were Christian (Charles Carroll, for example, was a practicing Roman Catholic), many were Deists or became so - they were products of the Enlightenment. Jefferson was hostile to the organized church his entire life. In his time, he was attacked for his religious views which certainly weren't Christian as we know it since he denied the divinity of Jesus and even redacted his Bible of all gospel passages which didn't make rational sense to him.


The bible Jefferson wrote, which is called The Jefferson Bible, consisted of only what Jesus had actually said.

TOW
09-20-2005, 19:07
[QUOTE=Skyline]Good post, Cookerhiker, especially calling the Fundies out on "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin." That has always been such a phony, condescending excuse for oppressing people they don't approve of.

QUOTE]
i'll have to agree with that statement, that always sounded phuey to me too......

Just Jeff
09-20-2005, 20:27
Good post, Cookerhiker, especially calling the Fundies out on "Love The Sinner, Hate The Sin." That has always been such a phony, condescending excuse for oppressing people they don't approve of.
I think it's a great philosophy...unfortunately, that's not how it's applied.

Just like kids. You punish them for specific behaviors, not for being "bad kids." Same principle, but it works with your kids because you know them.

Folks who misapply the principle generally judge before they get to know someone...because [their version of] God forbid they get exposed to a new idea. It might conflict with what they already [think they] know to be true!

Holy crap! That would mean they'd have to think on their own! Can't have any of that, now!

Kinda like that lightweight hammocking crowd, if you ask me...

Next term, I'm taking a "Good in Theory" course from a clergyman for grad school. Should make for some interesting discussion... :p

Lilred
09-20-2005, 21:50
Folks who misapply the principle generally judge before they get to know someone...because [their version of] God forbid they get exposed to a new idea. It might conflict with what they already [think they] know to be true!

Holy crap! That would mean they'd have to think on their own! Can't have any of that, now!-

I consider myself a fudamentalist Christian because I believe the bible to be fundamentally the Word of God. The conversation of this thread seems to assume that all 'Fundies' are incapable of loving those that live in sin. What crap! We all sin and fall short, and one sin is no worse than another in the eyes of God. Sin is sin. So, if I can't hate the sin but love the sinner, than there is no one on this earth that I am capable of loving, according to the consensus of this forum.
This is exactly the kind of response I take offense to. Just because I believe in God and consider myself a new testament christian does not mean that I can't think on my own. Most of the members of my congregation are educated people who most assuredly think for themselves. And as I have said before, I was an atheist for 25 years. The very fact that I think for myself is the reason I'm a christian today. And my 'version' of God does not forbid me to get exposed to new ideas. Don't forget who Jesus hung around with in his day. What arrogance to assume that because you don't agree with my beliefs means I can't think for myself. Some folks on here need to take a good hard look at their stereotypical ideas of who a 'fundie' is and quit lumping us all into one narrowminded category.

Nightwalker
09-20-2005, 22:07
hey steve i am still researching what i wanted to share with you, just a little more time and i'll nail the verse down........i want to thankyou ahead of time for your patience with me...........
Maybe this will help:

Luke:4:5: And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luke:4:6: And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Seems pretty separated...

Skyline
09-20-2005, 22:25
I consider myself a fudamentalist Christian because I believe the bible to be fundamentally the Word of God. The conversation of this thread seems to assume that all 'Fundies' are incapable of loving those that live in sin. What crap! We all sin and fall short, and one sin is no worse than another in the eyes of God. Sin is sin. So, if I can't hate the sin but love the sinner, than there is no one on this earth that I am capable of loving, according to the consensus of this forum.
This is exactly the kind of response I take offense to. Just because I believe in God and consider myself a new testament christian does not mean that I can't think on my own. Most of the members of my congregation are educated people who most assuredly think for themselves. And as I have said before, I was an atheist for 25 years. The very fact that I think for myself is the reason I'm a christian today. And my 'version' of God does not forbid me to get exposed to new ideas. Don't forget who Jesus hung around with in his day. What arrogance to assume that because you don't agree with my beliefs means I can't think for myself. Some folks on here need to take a good hard look at their stereotypical ideas of who a 'fundie' is and quit lumping us all into one narrowminded category.


Fair enough, Lilredmg.

But do you participate in POLITICAL campaigns--candidates or referendums--that use religious dogma as the basis to write into law (or elect candidates who will do so) the oppression of people who SHOULD have true equality in America? Seems like every decade there is a new hot-button issue that the Christian Fundamentalists want to control to match their narrow viewpoints.

It's VERY okay to live by your own moral code, and it's fair that you demand to be left alone to do so. It is NOT very okay to force everyone else to live by that code. If you say you love the sinner/hate the sin and stop right there, we are on the same page. Most of your brethren do not stop there.

Nightwalker
09-20-2005, 22:33
Two other things about fundamentalist Christians that amuse if not annoy me:

Re. commandments, Jesus made it clear that love of God and love of neighbor are the greatest commandments. Love of neighbor is spelled out in both John (as a "new" commandment) and in Luke in the parable of the Good Samaritan. So why are fundamentalists so hung up on the 10 Commandments?
First off, not all conservative Christians are alike. Oddo little me is about as different as anyone you'll meet. :D

Fundamentalist is a weird word in the modern vocabulary, and has been ruined for trying to use it in its true meaning.

However, I agree with you about all of the 10 commandments signs that live in so many yards and public places. It almost seems as if these folks are saying "I keep all of these, and you'd better, too." Well, I've broken them all, most especially if you use Jesus' guidelines (See Matthew 5:21-22, and apply that to all of them).

Back to the point, however: There are no good men. Not one. These folks that are living and dying as if the "Big 10" are their watchwords are living a lie. The law existed to show us how broken we were. The law is unkeepable by man.

And yes, Jesus made it very clear: (1) Love God (2) Love your neighbor (3) Everyone's your neighbor. Follow these, and you don't have to remember a lot of rules from Deuteronomy and Leviticus.

Nightwalker
09-20-2005, 22:34
The problem is the group mentality: Christians are so used to putting everybody in sterotypical groupings
Isn't that what you're doing with that statement?

You're a smart fella. Think about it.

:D

Lilred
09-20-2005, 22:40
Fair enough, Lilredmg.

But do you participate in POLITICAL campaigns--candidates or referendums--that use religious dogma as the basis to write into law (or elect candidates who will do so) the oppression of people who SHOULD have true equality in America? Seems like every decade there is a new hot-button issue that the Christian Fundamentalists want to control to match their narrow viewpoints.

It's VERY okay to live by your own moral code, and it's fair that you demand to be left alone to do so. It is NOT very okay to force everyone else to live by that code. If you say you love the sinner/hate the sin and stop right there, we are on the same page. Most of your brethren do not stop there.

No, I do not participate in Political campaigns or support those far right wing conservative christians. The Pat Robertson's of this world scare the crap out of me. One of the most frightening things I've heard Bush say is that God told him to invade Iraq. Voting for a candidate over one issue, like abortion, imo, is ridiculous. Personally, I am pro-life, but politically, I'm pro-choice. I do resent being called a sheep and not being able to think for myself because I'm a fundamentalist, but at the same time, I resented many preachers insinuating, and some downright saying, that I wasn't a christian if I didn't vote for Bush. What baloney. I know a lot more christians that feel the way I do than feel the way those such as the Robertson's of the world feel. I guess that's why I get my ire raised when we're all lumped into the same category. Just chalk it up to being a red-head

TOW
09-20-2005, 22:45
I consider myself a fudamentalist Christian because I believe the bible to be fundamentally the Word of God. The conversation of this thread seems to assume that all 'Fundies' are incapable of loving those that live in sin. What crap! We all sin and fall short, and one sin is no worse than another in the eyes of God. Sin is sin. So, if I can't hate the sin but love the sinner, than there is no one on this earth that I am capable of loving, according to the consensus of this forum.
This is exactly the kind of response I take offense to. Just because I believe in God and consider myself a new testament christian does not mean that I can't think on my own. Most of the members of my congregation are educated people who most assuredly think for themselves. And as I have said before, I was an atheist for 25 years. The very fact that I think for myself is the reason I'm a christian today. And my 'version' of God does not forbid me to get exposed to new ideas. Don't forget who Jesus hung around with in his day. What arrogance to assume that because you don't agree with my beliefs means I can't think for myself. Some folks on here need to take a good hard look at their stereotypical ideas of who a 'fundie' is and quit lumping us all into one narrowminded category.well said...when i said that i don't like the adage, hate the sin but love the sinner....to me as a christian it sounds false for some reason........let me explain it this way, when someone is blatantly doing their best to do wrong in front of me or to me it takes me awhile to accept what they are doing and it is very difficult for me to reach out to them in the way they are presenting themselves...but after awhile and for the most part, God shows me how to reach out to them in love....so if this is hating the sin but loving the sinner, then thats how i do it.......

along those same lines, and i have used this one myself, another one i hear some say is "I am so blessed"...sometimes when i hear it and how the person is saying it, it just seems to cringes me..

lilred, i like the way you are up front and personal, i too like to think of myself as that way......there's one thing the Bible states to me very clearly is that we should not be cowardly in what we believe and back down from no one, even when our butts are falling off........

so keep on standing.....

TOW
09-20-2005, 22:49
Maybe this will help:

Luke:4:5: And the devil, taking him up into an high mountain, shewed unto him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time.
Luke:4:6: And the devil said unto him, All this power will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.

Seems pretty separated...satan continues to say in 4:7 "So if you worship me, it will be all yours."
Jesus replied in 4:8 "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only"

no frank, that's not what i was looking for....

TOW
09-20-2005, 22:54
It's VERY okay to live by your own moral code, and it's fair that you demand to be left alone to do so. It is NOT very okay to force everyone else to live by that code. If you say you love the sinner/hate the sin and stop right there, we are on the same page. Most of your brethren do not stop there.
you are out of line with that last line for sure, how do you know what most of the brethren do or don't do?

TOW
09-20-2005, 22:56
First off, not all conservative Christians are alike. Oddo little me is about as different as anyone you'll meet. :D

Fundamentalist is a weird word in the modern vocabulary, and has been ruined for trying to use it in its true meaning.

However, I agree with you about all of the 10 commandments signs that live in so many yards and public places. It almost seems as if these folks are saying "I keep all of these, and you'd better, too." Well, I've broken them all, most especially if you use Jesus' guidelines (See Matthew 5:21-22, and apply that to all of them).

Back to the point, however: There are no good men. Not one. These folks that are living and dying as if the "Big 10" are their watchwords are living a lie. The law existed to show us how broken we were. The law is unkeepable by man.

And yes, Jesus made it very clear: (1) Love God (2) Love your neighbor (3) Everyone's your neighbor. Follow these, and you don't have to remember a lot of rules from Deuteronomy and Leviticus.
excellent, yes..yes..yes................

Just Jeff
09-20-2005, 23:01
I consider myself a fudamentalist Christian because I believe the bible to be fundamentally the Word of God.

snip...

Some folks on here need to take a good hard look at their stereotypical ideas of who a 'fundie' is and quit lumping us all into one narrowminded category.
Haha...so since my narrow definition of what a fundie is doesn't fit your narrow definition of what a fundie is, I'm the one lumping people into a narrowminded category? Heh...

You'll notice that I didn't even use the word "fundamental" in that post...you projected it there.

To be fair, I was talking about fundamentalists...but apparently not in the sense that you were. Maybe extremist would be more accurate...maybe not. I think most people define fundamentalist differently than what you described.

Regardless, if you try to tell me, in the arrogance of the generally accepted definition of a fundamentalist, that your belief is right and I'm going to burn in hell because I disagree with you, so it's your God-given task to convert me to your way of thinking, then I'll have to respectfully call you a wack-o.

But I can see from your other posts you generally don't do that, so your offense was over my failure to properly define what I was talking about. I should have been more clear.


Personally, I am pro-life, but politically, I'm pro-choice.
This makes a strong statement about your ability to think for yourself. The type of person I was speaking of doesn't think in these terms...because what is right for him must be codified into law as what's right for everyone.


I do resent being called a sheep and not being able to think for myself because I'm a fundamentalist
Again, I think this is a misunderstanding of definitions. I did not mean to call you personally a sheep.

Not that I'm afraid to call someone a sheep who displays those traits, but you don't seem to based on your posts.

Just like me being in the military...in many cases we're taught to obey orders without question. In many cases that is the correct approach that will save lives. In other cases, we're taught to critically examine issues, and some people are not good at that (both in and out of the military). But just because I'm in the military doesn't mean I follow orders blindly, like a sheep.

However, since I'm in the military, I will fight for your freedom to say whatever you damn well please whether I agree with it or not, because my oath is to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic..."

Now if we change the Constitution (esp. re: the establishment post a while back), I'll have to re-examine my ability to feel like I can morally uphold that oath.

Lilred
09-20-2005, 23:04
.there's one thing the Bible states to me very clearly is that we should not be cowardly in what we believe and back down from no one, even when our butts are falling off........

so keep on standing.....

Thanks TOW, I appreciate the kind words.

TOW
09-20-2005, 23:14
Thanks TOW, I appreciate the kind words.check out Hebrews 10:39

Lilred
09-20-2005, 23:40
Haha...so since my narrow definition of what a fundie is doesn't fit your narrow definition of what a fundie is, I'm the one lumping people into a narrowminded category? Heh...

You'll notice that I didn't even use the word "fundamental" in that post...you projected it there.

To be fair, I was talking about fundamentalists...but apparently not in the sense that you were. Maybe extremist would be more accurate...maybe not. I think most people define fundamentalist differently than what you described.

Not to be splitting hairs here, but since I AM a fundamentalist, wouldn't that make my definition of the word hold a little more weight than yours? And I agree, the word extremist would be a little more appropriate. Fundamentalists are those folks who believe that the bible is THE word of God. Written by man, who were inspired by the Holy Ghost. Fundamentalists believe in Heaven and Hell and that those who are not saved, will perish eternally. We believe this not because some preacher said so, but because Jesus said so. Mark 16:16 For those of you into New Age, consider those men who wrote the bible as 'channelling' God's thoughts. Do I think I should try to change your mind when you're not willing to change? NO. You have been given free will to decide for yourself and if God is willing to give you that freedom, so will I. However, if anyone has any questions about my belief, or what the bible teaches, I'd be more than willing to discuss things. The preachers in my church encourage us to read the bible and make up our own minds about what it teaches. They also tell us if they ever preach anything other than what is written in the bible, we should call them on it and correct them. There are folks in my congregation that search the scriptures while the preacher preaches to make sure he doesn't stray from what the bible says. We have no 'home office' to answer to and we have no man-made doctrines. The bible is all the doctrine we use.

I am fully aware that there are fundamentalist christians out there giving us all a bad name. Just wanted to let y'all know we're not all the same. I know some folks that call themselves fundamentalists that are absolute whackos. And I know some that are the most kindest, loving people you'll ever meet. I know more of the latter than the former.

smokymtnsteve
09-20-2005, 23:46
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.--1 Tim.2:11-12

smokymtnsteve
09-20-2005, 23:59
1 Corinthians
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Nightwalker
09-21-2005, 00:52
satan continues to say in 4:7 "So if you worship me, it will be all yours."
Jesus replied in 4:8 "It is written: 'Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only"

no frank, that's not what i was looking for....
But it's a very good argument for Christians staying out of the government. (1) Why would we want to be a part of something that the enemy is running? (2) No one is gonna get in there and "change it from the inside." It's never happened. It's never going to. Leave the power-mad politicians to their own games.

Here's an extra-credit question for ya. Do you believe that a man is a Christian just because he says he is? Don't you believe that actions speak louder than words? (a-la fruit and trees and such.). I'm not sure that a lot of believers are capable of going so far as seeing that there's a possibility that they've been lied to with their own language. The enemy and his followers could certainly give that one a good run, wouldn't you say? Follow that thought process on out a ways.

You said earlier that you're not part of a church. You might consider giving it a try. It'd grow you in ways that you wouldn't expect. If you haven't found one you like yet, just keep looking.

I'm not trying to get the argument/discussion/whatever started again. You just seemed to insinuate that I was picking and choosing bits and pieces of verses. Nope.

I'll say it again. As far as the Church and State thing: Why would we want to be a part of something that's corrupt from top to bottom?

Just Jeff
09-21-2005, 01:02
Not to be splitting hairs here, but since I AM a fundamentalist, wouldn't that make my definition of the word hold a little more weight than yours?
Stereotype yourself with whatever definition you choose! :)


Just wanted to let y'all know we're not all the same. I know some folks that call themselves fundamentalists that are absolute whackos. And I know some that are the most kindest, loving people you'll ever meet. I know more of the latter than the former.
I wholeheartedly agree.

All depends on how they treat other people, whether or not they agree with their opinions.

Heater
09-21-2005, 02:39
I consider myself a fudamentalist Christian because I believe the bible to be fundamentally the Word of God.
You can consider it all you want but that does not make it true!
Basing your arguements on your own private (false) definition makes your arguements meaningless.

Main Entry: fun·da·men·tal·ism (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?fundam04.wav=fundamentalism'))
Pronunciation: -t&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental (http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/fundamental) to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles
- fun·da·men·tal·ist (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?fundam05.wav=fundamentalist'))/-t&l-ist/ noun
- fundamentalist or fun·da·men·tal·is·tic (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?fundam06.wav=fundamentalistic'))/-"men-t&l-'is-tik/ adjective



DICTIONARY.com

fun·da·men·tal·ism (f n d -m n tl- z m)
n.


A usually religious movement or point of view characterized by a return to fundamental principles, by rigid adherence to those principles, and often by intolerance of other views and opposition to secularism.

often Fundamentalism An organized, militant Evangelical movement originating in the United States in the late 19th and early 20th century in opposition to Protestant Liberalism and secularism, insisting on the inerrancy of Scripture.
Adherence to the theology of this movement.


This is exactly the kind of response I take offense to. Just because I believe in God and consider myself a new testament christian does not mean that I can't think on my own. Most of the members of my congregation are educated people who most assuredly think for themselves. And as I have said before, I was an atheist for 25 years. The very fact that I think for myself is the reason I'm a christian today.

...just not a fundamentalist christian.

Fundamentalists, bydefinition, really don't do much thinking of their own.
If you don't being thought of in this manner quit classifiying yourself as such.


And my 'version' of God does not forbid me to get exposed to new ideas. Don't forget who Jesus hung around with in his day.
Fundamentalists don't really have their own "versions." Ya know!


What arrogance to assume that because you don't agree with my beliefs means I can't think for myself. Some folks on here need to take a good hard look at their stereotypical ideas of who a 'fundie' is and quit lumping us all into one narrowminded category.
"Some folks on here" need to take a good hard look at the dictionary. :jump

:bse

TOW
09-21-2005, 05:51
I am fully aware that there are fundamentalist christians out there giving us all a bad name. Just wanted to let y'all know we're not all the same. I know some folks that call themselves fundamentalists that are absolute whackos. And I know some that are the most kindest, loving people you'll ever meet. I know more of the latter than the former.
i'm with you on this one, most of the christians i count close to me are some of the best people you would ever meet on this side of heaven...

TOW
09-21-2005, 06:00
Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.--1 Tim.2:11-12steve, who's teaching, she's simply standing her ground............

TOW
09-21-2005, 06:02
1 Corinthians
14:34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

14:35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.well, we difinetly ain't in church here, now are we.............

dougmeredith
09-21-2005, 08:44
one sin is no worse than another in the eyes of God.
I would suggest then that perhaps God needs glasses. I'm trying to figure out if my son should get the electric chair for hitting his brother, or if Charles Manson should have just gotten a time out.

Doug

dougmeredith
09-21-2005, 08:50
Not to be splitting hairs here, but since I AM a fundamentalist, wouldn't that make my definition of the word hold a little more weight than yours?
I am the President of the United States.

Doug

Alligator
09-21-2005, 08:53
I would suggest then that perhaps God needs glasses. I'm trying to figure out if my son should get the electric chair for hitting his brother, or if Charles Manson should have just gotten a time out.

DougOle Charles is on a long time out, give the boy one too. Besides, if you draw too much power from the electric company, they'll come and check things out.

Cookerhiker
09-21-2005, 09:26
Not to be splitting hairs here, but since I AM a fundamentalist, wouldn't that make my definition of the word hold a little more weight than yours? And I agree, the word extremist would be a little more appropriate. Fundamentalists are those folks who believe that the bible is THE word of God. Written by man, who were inspired by the Holy Ghost. Fundamentalists believe in Heaven and Hell and that those who are not saved, will perish eternally. We believe this not because some preacher said so, but because Jesus said so. Mark 16:16 For those of you into New Age, consider those men who wrote the bible as 'channelling' God's thoughts. Do I think I should try to change your mind when you're not willing to change? NO. You have been given free will to decide for yourself and if God is willing to give you that freedom, so will I. However, if anyone has any questions about my belief, or what the bible teaches, I'd be more than willing to discuss things. The preachers in my church encourage us to read the bible and make up our own minds about what it teaches. They also tell us if they ever preach anything other than what is written in the bible, we should call them on it and correct them. There are folks in my congregation that search the scriptures while the preacher preaches to make sure he doesn't stray from what the bible says. We have no 'home office' to answer to and we have no man-made doctrines. The bible is all the doctrine we use.

I am fully aware that there are fundamentalist christians out there giving us all a bad name. Just wanted to let y'all know we're not all the same. I know some folks that call themselves fundamentalists that are absolute whackos. And I know some that are the most kindest, loving people you'll ever meet. I know more of the latter than the former.Interesting that you quoted Mark 16:16. Most Bibles contain this passage, perhaps some without commentary. However, this was not part of the original text of Mark which ends rather abruptly after verse 8. It was added some time afterwards by Chuch authorities, when and by whom is anyone's guess. Of course, one would never know this if your Bible reading is confined to the King James version. The concept of condemnation in 16:16 is present nowhere else in Mark unless you possibly consider Chapter 13. So even if you accept - as I do - that the Gospel writer Mark was, in your words, inspired by the Holy Ghost, what about the person(s) who augmented his writing? Did they put their own spin on what Jesus would have said/thought?

Question like these are why I find Bible study so fascinating and the Christian faith so complex.

Skyline
09-21-2005, 09:35
No, I do not participate in Political campaigns or support those far right wing conservative christians. The Pat Robertson's of this world scare the crap out of me. One of the most frightening things I've heard Bush say is that God told him to invade Iraq. Voting for a candidate over one issue, like abortion, imo, is ridiculous. Personally, I am pro-life, but politically, I'm pro-choice. I do resent being called a sheep and not being able to think for myself because I'm a fundamentalist, but at the same time, I resented many preachers insinuating, and some downright saying, that I wasn't a christian if I didn't vote for Bush. What baloney. I know a lot more christians that feel the way I do than feel the way those such as the Robertson's of the world feel. I guess that's why I get my ire raised when we're all lumped into the same category. Just chalk it up to being a red-head

I think we are close to being on the same page. We just took VERY different paths to get there.

In 2004, the Catholic Diocese that my parish and therefore I belonged to (guess I still do, they continue to send appeals for money) actually had a list of issues distributed at MASS telling us how we were to vote. It didn't take much winking to let us know which candidates supported their positions. Add to that the Vatican's threat to refuse Communion (or worse) to Catholic office holders who didn't see things their way, and well, that was what finally did it for me.

Just Jeff
09-21-2005, 09:41
steve, who's teaching, she's simply standing her ground............
TOW, I think he was commenting on the practice of taking quotes in the Bible as the literal word of God.

If that quote is in the Bible, a true literalist (or fundamentalist by Lilredmg's definition) would have to adopt that philosophy, too. Which apparently isn't the case here.

Rain Man
09-21-2005, 09:48
Jefferson was hostile to the organized church his entire life. In his time, he was attacked for his religious views which certainly weren't Christian as we know it since he denied the divinity of Jesus ...

At the risk of getting smacked on my following statistical claim, I'm going to ask for a gentle "whoa, Nellie" on this claim that "Christians" believe in the divinity of Jesus, or the corollary that one has to believe in the divinity of Jesus to be a "Christian."

To my knowledge, a majority of Christians in the world do NOT believe in the divinity of Jesus. The particular claim that Jesus was God incarnate was largely a political-military decision forced on the Nicene Council by Emporer Constantine. However, that was only for the "West." The Christian church of the "East" refused to convert to that new dogma. And many churches in the West also do not believe that particular dogma.

So, be cautious when you say "we" know that Christianity includes this or that dogma. "We" might be a minority. For some light reading on the subject, Readers Digest actually has a good volume titled something like "After Jesus - the Triumph of Christianity." For some heavier reading, the little volume "Ecclesiastical History" by Eusebius, who sat by Constantine at the Nicene Council.

Now, that Jesus guy was quite a hiker, wasn't he?! I wonder what his Trail Name would have been, had they had trail names back then.

Rain:sunMan

.

Ford Prefect
09-21-2005, 09:56
Interesting that you quoted Mark 16:16. Most Bibles contain this passage, perhaps some without commentary. However, this was not part of the original text of Mark which ends rather abruptly after verse 8. It was added some time afterwards by Chuch authorities, when and by whom is anyone's guess. Of course, one would never know this if your Bible reading is confined to the King James version. The concept of condemnation in 16:16 is present nowhere else in Mark unless you possibly consider Chapter 13. So even if you accept - as I do - that the Gospel writer Mark was, in your words, inspired by the Holy Ghost, what about the person(s) who augmented his writing? Did they put their own spin on what Jesus would have said/thought?

Question like these are why I find Bible study so fascinating and the Christian faith so complex.
Cooker;

It's generally accepted that Moses wrote the Law (Genesis - Deuteronomy). Now, consider Deuteronomy, specifically Chapter 34. This chapter speaks of the death of Moses. Vs. 10 - 12 specifically state:

10And there has not arisen a prophet since in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face, 11none like him for all the signs and the wonders that the LORD sent him to do in the land of Egypt, to Pharaoh and to all his servants and to all his land, 12and for all the mighty power and all the great deeds of terror that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.
So Moses REALLY could not have written this. But was it written by someone inspired by God? As for Mark 16, I offer the following:

Some manuscripts end the book with 16:8; others include verses 9-20 immediately after verse 8. A few manuscripts insert additional material after verse 14; one Latin manuscript adds after verse 8 the following: But they reported briefly to Peter and those with him all that they had been told. And after this, Jesus himself sent out by means of them, from east to west, the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Other manuscripts include this same wording after verse 8, then continue with verses 9-20.
So, we have the same question: Was it written by someone inspired by God?

What it all really boils down to is faith, simply faith. And we could speak for a while on the effect election has on faith, but this is certainly not the forum for that.

Now, let's get back to hiking folks!

FP

Rain Man
09-21-2005, 10:18
... The conversation of this thread seems to assume that all 'Fundies' are incapable of loving those that live in sin. What crap! ...

Hey Mary, you are doing a great job of standing up for your beliefs with grace! I just wanted to say that out loud.

On the issue of fundamentalists "loving" sinners, may I ask a question? I feel as if fundamentalists CLAIM to love sinners, but that this "love" is premised on the idea that forcing people to believe the "right" way and following the right path is loving. Is that a fair statement of something fundamentalist (as the term is loosely used) believe? I think so, but I like to hear you ideas. But I'm not asking about your personal beliefs, but what "fundamentalists" generally believe.

You see, I believe that fundamentalists fundamentally believe that they have the direct, toll-free phone line to God and the only true interpretation of scriptures. Thus, having that inside and pure knowledge, it follows that they need to "share" God's wishes with everyone else. Notice I haven't said Christian. To me, there's not a hill of beans difference between Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists. They both want to force everyone else to submit to their fundamental, "right" dogma, whether by brain-washing, or legislative, political, military, or even economic, "loving" "persuasion." Of course, to them it is God's will, so that justifies their actions.

The above is pretty much my definition of fundamentalists,-- forcing one's own version of religiosity on others because you are right and they are wrong about God's wishes for God's children and you are "saving" them from their sins.

That is what I think they call "loving" "sinners." Of course, the victims of that love might not call it love, but hate.

Anyway, what do you think?! I respect that you have a different idea of what a fundamentalist is, but the above is my general definition. I consider fundamentalists to be very un-Christian and very un-Islamic. But that's just me.

Rain:sunMan

.

Just Jeff
09-21-2005, 11:13
What it all really boils down to is faith, simply faith.
Here's a logical argument in favor of God...doesn't necessarily rely on faith.

First Cause.

Everything that happens in our universe is a result of cause and effect. You push me, I fall down...easy concept.

So any event can be traced back to it original cause. Why did I fall down? Because you pushed me.

An cause can also have many effects. You push caused (1) me to fall, (2) the lamp to get broken, and (3) you to get beat up.

So, logically, if you look at every event in the world and follow it back in time, the number of causes decreases dramatically. Eventually, you're left with a single cause for all events...the First Cause.

That's perfectly logical.

But what caused that First Cause?

Stephen Hawking believes in God.

Cookerhiker
09-21-2005, 12:44
Hey Mary, you are doing a great job of standing up for your beliefs with grace! I just wanted to say that out loud.

On the issue of fundamentalists "loving" sinners, may I ask a question? I feel as if fundamentalists CLAIM to love sinners, but that this "love" is premised on the idea that forcing people to believe the "right" way and following the right path is loving. Is that a fair statement of something fundamentalist (as the term is loosely used) believe? I think so, but I like to hear you ideas. But I'm not asking about your personal beliefs, but what "fundamentalists" generally believe.

You see, I believe that fundamentalists fundamentally believe that they have the direct, toll-free phone line to God and the only true interpretation of scriptures. Thus, having that inside and pure knowledge, it follows that they need to "share" God's wishes with everyone else. Notice I haven't said Christian. To me, there's not a hill of beans difference between Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists. They both want to force everyone else to submit to their fundamental, "right" dogma, whether by brain-washing, or legislative, political, military, or even economic, "loving" "persuasion." Of course, to them it is God's will, so that justifies their actions.

The above is pretty much my definition of fundamentalists,-- forcing one's own version of religiosity on others because you are right and they are wrong about God's wishes for God's children and you are "saving" them from their sins.

That is what I think they call "loving" "sinners." Of course, the victims of that love might not call it love, but hate.

Anyway, what do you think?! I respect that you have a different idea of what a fundamentalist is, but the above is my general definition. I consider fundamentalists to be very un-Christian and very un-Islamic. But that's just me.

Rain:sunMan

.
I just finished reading a fascinating book by Karen Armstrong entitled "The Battle for God - a History of Fundamentalism" which traces the history of and common trends in fundamentalism in the 3 major monotheistic faiths - Christianity, Islam, and Judaeism. One such common trend is that fundamantalists believe modern society is evil and such evil must eradicated. Another common trend (not surprisingly) is refusal to compromise with, tolerate, or respect any religious thought different from their own. And along with this, they all believe that God is on their side. One of her assertions which may surprise readers is that fundamentalism is a relatively new phenomenon - less than 200 years old - and that Christians of old did not interpret the Bible literally. Rather, the significance of many Bible stories wasn't whether they literally occurred or not, but their moral (the moral of the story is...) and meaning for us as people of faith.

I commend this reading for anyone interested in this subject but this is not light, bedtime, Trailside reading! Speaking of which, back to the Trail for me. No more on this subject.:o

RedneckRye
09-21-2005, 12:48
It's a beautiful outside, I'm not working today, I sat down to do a quick e-mail check. I made the mistake of reading the first few posts on this thread, then a few more, then a few more. 215 posts later, I've wasted an hour. What a bunch of gibberish. Y'all (me included) need to go outside and enjoy some nature - whoever or whatever created it. All this huffing and puffing and I'd bet not a single opinion has been changed one bit.

Ford Prefect
09-21-2005, 13:27
Everything that happens in our universe is a result of cause and effect. You push me, I fall down...easy concept.

Anyone remember the original joke, at this point? Pushing someone down is what started the thread in the first place.

I find it just too funny that you should choose this as your 'root' cause ... lol ...

:banana

FP

Just Jeff
09-21-2005, 14:00
Haha....that is ironic, isn't it?

RedneckRye, not everyone is huffing and puffing. Some don't even type fast enough to break a sweat!

Skyline
09-21-2005, 15:54
you are out of line with that last line for sure, how do you know what most of the brethren do or don't do?

I know that the Religious Right controls the hateful domestic agenda (and some of the foreign agenda) in the USA right now. They are by definition lilredmg's brethren, tho to her credit she has disassociated herself from their political actions.

Lilred
09-21-2005, 17:02
Hey Mary, you are doing a great job of standing up for your beliefs with grace! I just wanted to say that out loud.

On the issue of fundamentalists "loving" sinners, may I ask a question? I feel as if fundamentalists CLAIM to love sinners, but that this "love" is premised on the idea that forcing people to believe the "right" way and following the right path is loving. Is that a fair statement of something fundamentalist (as the term is loosely used) believe? I think so, but I like to hear you ideas. But I'm not asking about your personal beliefs, but what "fundamentalists" generally believe.

You see, I believe that fundamentalists fundamentally believe that they have the direct, toll-free phone line to God and the only true interpretation of scriptures. Thus, having that inside and pure knowledge, it follows that they need to "share" God's wishes with everyone else. Notice I haven't said Christian. To me, there's not a hill of beans difference between Christian fundamentalists and Islamic fundamentalists. They both want to force everyone else to submit to their fundamental, "right" dogma, whether by brain-washing, or legislative, political, military, or even economic, "loving" "persuasion." Of course, to them it is God's will, so that justifies their actions.

The above is pretty much my definition of fundamentalists,-- forcing one's own version of religiosity on others because you are right and they are wrong about God's wishes for God's children and you are "saving" them from their sins.

That is what I think they call "loving" "sinners." Of course, the victims of that love might not call it love, but hate.

Anyway, what do you think?! I respect that you have a different idea of what a fundamentalist is, but the above is my general definition. I consider fundamentalists to be very un-Christian and very un-Islamic. But that's just me.

Rain:sunMan

.

Wow, so much to comment on. First of all, back to the definition of fundamentalism.

"Main Entry: fun·da·men·tal·ism
Pronunciation: -t&l-"i-z&m
Function: noun
1 a often capitalized : a movement in 20th century Protestantism emphasizing the literally interpreted Bible as fundamental to Christian life and teaching b : the beliefs of this movement c : adherence to such beliefs
2 : a movement or attitude stressing strict and literal adherence to a set of basic principles"

I don't see where this definition differs from what I said at all.
Secondly, dictionary.com?? oh ok. I'll stick with Websters or the American collegiate dictionary, thanks though.

Secondly, a woman is to remain silent 'in church' according to scripture, not to teach men. I'm not in church and I'm not teaching, unless you consider yourself my student, in which case I'll direct you to my elder.

Also, I believe if God wanted to give us His written word, there isn't a thing man can do to change it, otherwise you are saying man is more powerful than God. Nope, don't think so.

As for a Christian believing in the divinity of Christ, I think that is pretty much a given. Jesus asked his apostles who they thought he was, and they started naming off a bunch of dead prophets, (which lends a theory to reincarnation), then Peter said he was the Son of God, to which Jesus replied, Upon this rock I will build my church. The rock, I interpret, as being the belief that He is the son of God. I maintain that one must believe in His divinity to be a member of His church. Perhaps that is different than being a Christian, since the definition of christian is to be christ-like. I suppose one can be christ-like without believing He is God's son.

Rain Man, you made a lot of points up there. Let me try to answer some. As for loving sinners, I can't answer as to what fundamentalists believe, only as to how I interpret the scripture. Paul said to 'love one another with true affection.' Jesus loved the sinner and forgave sins. My husband is an atheist, do I not love him because he won't convert? I don't think so. My mom is Catholic, do I not love her because she won't convert? I don't think so. My sister and brother are atheists, do I not love them cause they won't convert? Nope. If I can love my family that won't convert, why can't I love others that won't convert? Of course, I can.

I don't want to 'force' anyone to believe as I do. Do I think the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ? Yes I do, because it is written in the scriptures. Do I think all those who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell because of it? Yes I do, because it is written in the scripture. Do I think that I am better than others because I am saved and they are not? No I don't. God has His plan for each of us and I have all I can do to keep myself straight. Once saved does not mean always saved, and an unsaved person today could become saved tomorrow, and vice versa, so who am I to judge. It is ultimately God's decision who is saved and who isn't, not mine. There are a lot of things I don't understand and probably never will, I just have to stick with what I believe and hope I'm living according to His will. I know what the bible says I must do to be saved, and so I do it, it's that simple.

Many definitions of fundamentalism links it to Protesantism. I am not a Protestant, since I belong to the church that was founded by Jesus. I don't belong to any denomination that protested against the Catholic church. The church I belong to can be found in the book of Acts.

My congregation considers themselves fundamentalist christians. Believing in the inerrancy of the bible in matters of faith and morals, and also as a historical record. We believe in the creation as told in Genesis, the virgin birth of Christ, his resurrection and foretold return. I don't know how to make that any clearer. I am not an extremist, thinking everyone has to think like I do. Believe whatever you like, I'll still love ya. God does. ;)

Someone else wrote something about calling yourself a christian and not really being one. I agree with the person that said you can tell them by their fruits. If you want to call yourself the president of the USA, fine, but I better see you working in the oval office. If you want to call yourself a christian, fine, but I better see you acting like one. Does this mean christians don't sin? NOPE. But we at least strive not to. The bible says if you say you do not sin you are calling God a liar. All people sin, not all people strive not to sin though. I hope that makes sense.

Maybe we should take this to pm's. If anyone wants to continue this conversation there, I'd be more than willing to keep it going.

smokymtnsteve
09-21-2005, 17:05
1 Timothy
2:11"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (2:13-15)

2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

smokymtnsteve
09-21-2005, 17:17
Matthew 21:22 "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive"

maybe some of the xians that could believe, asking in prayer for the removing of the hurricane?

or would that be interfering with gods will and plan????

Lilred
09-21-2005, 18:09
1 Timothy
2:11"Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence."

2:12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.
2:13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. (2:13-15)

2:14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.

Sorry Steve,
That just doesn't apply here. Again, I'm not teaching, nor am I in church right now, unless you consider yourself my student. If you want to learn, I'll connect you with my elder, like I said before. Quoting scripture and talking about my faith is not teaching. First century christians met in homes where they worshipped and taught. They didn't have a bible to read from, the apostles and those given authority were the ones that taught. Your passages refer to those instances, hardly what is taking place here. This letter was written to Timothy to help him understand how to run the church, read the whole letter and don't take verses out of context. The very next chapters tell how a husband, bishop, deacon and elder should act and what is expected of them. Read 1Tim3:15 to find out why Paul wrote this letter. "But if I'm delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." Women do not preach in our church, nor do they teach bible classes to men over the age of 13. Why? because it says so in the bible.

Just Jeff
09-21-2005, 19:17
Hrm...I'm not sure I'd feel comfortable in a religion that makes me a second class citizen to other humans.

Nor would I feel comfortable devoting my life to a religion that doesn't apply equally to all aspects of my life.

But then, I don't feel comfortable with a religion trying to convince me that I'm a bad person.

And that I was born that way, so it's not my fault I'm bad, but I am, and there's no redemption until Someone else decides to redeem me. So I'd better grovel and beg (or pray, if you will), and I'd better lay the praise on thick and sing songs to His glory, simply to convince Him that I'm worthy of His good will.

Sheez...imagine if a person asked that of other people.

But this is different, because there's no "right" and no "wrong"...only His word. And if He doesn't treat people the way He tells you to treat people, well, that's his perogative and you'd better not question him or you'll end up Punished Big Time. Because right and wrong are relative to how He feels, and He doesn't have to conform to any Absolute standard of right, wrong, good or bad.

Phooey. Treating others as second class citizens because they were born female isn't "love" whether it happens in the church or outside. It's not acceptable from men, and it's not acceptable from Him. Eternal damnation isn't "love", especially when He admits that mere mortals can't possibly understand all the aspects and implications of His afterlife. What's more, eternal damnation isn't even nice!

But it sure would give you some good desert hiking skills, I imagine.

smokymtnsteve
09-21-2005, 19:34
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

smokymtnsteve
09-21-2005, 19:38
Matthew
10:34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

smokymtnsteve
09-21-2005, 19:57
Sorry Steve,
That just doesn't apply here. Again, I'm not teaching, nor am I in church right now, unless you consider yourself my student. If you want to learn, I'll connect you with my elder, like I said before. Quoting scripture and talking about my faith is not teaching. First century christians met in homes where they worshipped and taught. They didn't have a bible to read from, the apostles and those given authority were the ones that taught. Your passages refer to those instances, hardly what is taking place here. This letter was written to Timothy to help him understand how to run the church, read the whole letter and don't take verses out of context. The very next chapters tell how a husband, bishop, deacon and elder should act and what is expected of them. Read 1Tim3:15 to find out why Paul wrote this letter. "But if I'm delayed, I write so that you may know how you ought to conduct yourself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth." Women do not preach in our church, nor do they teach bible classes to men over the age of 13. Why? because it says so in the bible.


why lilredmg...why would U even assume that the scripture quote wuz directed @ U???? :eek:

Lilred
09-21-2005, 21:51
why lilredmg...why would U even assume that the scripture quote wuz directed @ U???? :eek:


Oh I dunno Steve, maybe cause I'm a woman talking about God and some on here don't want to hear me talk? My bad if I inferred the wrong thing. This wouldn't be the first time I made a fool of myself.

smokymtnsteve
09-21-2005, 21:55
me ne-ther ;)

Just Jeff
09-21-2005, 22:09
...and some on here don't want to hear me talk?
Who said that?

I think you make some good points. I don't agree with all of them, but I still like to hear them. Makes me think about my own beliefs.

Lilred
09-21-2005, 22:18
Who said that?

I think you make some good points. I don't agree with all of them, but I still like to hear them. Makes me think about my own beliefs.

No one did, that's why I made a question out of it.

smokymtnsteve
09-21-2005, 22:18
Who said that?

I think you make some good points. I don't agree with all of them, but I still like to hear them. Makes me think about my own beliefs.

U got dat rite JJ, don't ya think lilred would make a GREAT teacher regardless of what that ole babble says?
;)

TOW
09-22-2005, 05:53
"But it's a very good argument for Christians staying out of the government. (1) Why would we want to be a part of something that the enemy is running? (2) No one is gonna get in there and "change it from the inside." It's never happened. It's never going to. Leave the power-mad politicians to their own games."

You know Franklooper, I think I am going to have to retract my previous statement about us staying out of politics. I think we Christians need to be right in the middle of the political arena. Those whom God has gifted with political know how, and who are Christians, my hat is off to them. But I still think we need to work on what is good for the whole no matter our beliefs....

"Here's an extra-credit question for ya. Do you believe that a man is a Christian just because he says he is? Don't you believe that actions speak louder than words? (a-la fruit and trees and such.). I'm not sure that a lot of believers are capable of going so far as seeing that there's a possibility that they've been lied to with their own language. The enemy and his followers could certainly give that one a good run, wouldn't you say? Follow that thought process on out a ways."

To answer the first part of this paragraph, I say a man or a woman ought to know what he/she is or is not. Yes, actions always have spoke louder than words.
And to answer the last part, "Satan is like a roaring lion, waiting to devour someone at any given moment in time." (my wording)


"I'm not trying to get the argument/discussion/whatever started again. You just seemed to insinuate that I was picking and choosing bits and pieces of verses. Nope."

Ole horsecrappy, you are too...explain to me how I was insinuating anything at all here....Frank, do you have a job? Perhaps you need to get one, too much idle time will kill you, besides Satan likes an idle brain......

Just Jeff
09-22-2005, 10:32
Hehe...when a President tries to create an enemy to focus attention away from his shortcomings, he's blasted in the media...

Watch out, or those [commies, terrorists, liberals] will grab you...just like Satan.

The world's full of dangerous ideas...

Nightwalker
09-22-2005, 11:23
Ole horsecrappy, you are too...explain to me how I was insinuating anything at all here....Frank, do you have a job? Perhaps you need to get one, too much idle time will kill you, besides Satan likes an idle brain......
You've got a real problem, and it's not me. Goodbye.

MOWGLI
09-22-2005, 11:35
You've got a real problem, and it's not me. Goodbye.

Frank, do you think Larry is an instrument of satan :dance sent here to muck up Whiteblaze? :eek:

Alligator
09-22-2005, 11:46
Let's see 64 posts since 9/15 for TOW, 11 for Franklooper. That would make Frank more idle here at WB, but not elsewhere:-? . Of course WB could be TOW's calling...

Nightwalker
09-22-2005, 13:12
Frank, do you think Larry is an instrument of satan :dance sent here to muck up Whiteblaze? :eek:
No, just confused and misguided.

MOWGLI
09-22-2005, 13:18
No, just confused and misguided.

Hey Frank. Just a reminder. This is a humor thread, and that was an attempt at humor. :jump

Hope you're well.

dougmeredith
09-22-2005, 13:24
This thread is like a train wreck. I am appalled, yet for some reason I can't look away. I like that whiteblaze lets people say whatever they want, yet in a way I wish this thread would mysteriously disappear like the one on gas prices did a couple of months ago.

Doug

smokymtnsteve
09-22-2005, 15:53
This thread is like a train wreck. I am appalled, yet for some reason I can't look away. I like that whiteblaze lets people say whatever they want, yet in a way I wish this thread would mysteriously disappear like the one on gas prices did a couple of months ago.

Doug

use ur FREE WILL doug....it's an amazing thread that some of us "real " athiest and
Liberals, conservative and real xians are getting along quite well here ,,,,

just control yourself...maybe U should take Jesus new days advice and if your mouse hand offends U and U can't control it then CUT IT OFF,,,as he taught in the book of matthew computer daze :welcome :welcome

Just Jeff
09-22-2005, 16:02
I know what you're saying, Doug. When I'm looking for intellectual debate, I don't usually go to a hiking site, but this thread has me pretty interested. Obviously with 241 replies and 3217 views, it has others interested as well.

Proof that sometimes an off-topic thread on WB isn't full of name-calling and such. I'm glad the moderators let it stay (and stray), and I'm glad that it hasn't degenerated into idiocy...even if some folks out there may think it has!

Lone Wolf
09-22-2005, 20:19
God's message :D
www.thetravisty.com/Just_Funny.php?FN=Farting_Preacher_4.wmv

TOW
09-22-2005, 21:04
Question like these are why I find Bible study so fascinating and the Christian faith so complex.
it's all about faith and belief..............

TOW
09-22-2005, 21:05
TOW, I think he was commenting on the practice of taking quotes in the Bible as the literal word of God.

If that quote is in the Bible, a true literalist (or fundamentalist by Lilredmg's definition) would have to adopt that philosophy, too. Which apparently isn't the case here.
thanx for updating me on that, that's good point of view.....

TOW
09-22-2005, 21:18
I know that the Religious Right controls the hateful domestic agenda (and some of the foreign agenda) in the USA right now. They are by definition lilredmg's brethren, tho to her credit she has disassociated herself from their political actions.
that's not the majority though skyline, i think the majority lies within the interior of this country and has nothing to do with controlling.........in fact i really think that you cannot base your assumption on fact.....

TOW
09-22-2005, 21:25
Rain Man, you made a lot of points up there. Let me try to answer some. As for loving sinners, I can't answer as to what fundamentalists believe, only as to how I interpret the scripture. Paul said to 'love one another with true affection.' Jesus loved the sinner and forgave sins. My husband is an atheist, do I not love him because he won't convert? I don't think so. My mom is Catholic, do I not love her because she won't convert? I don't think so. My sister and brother are atheists, do I not love them cause they won't convert? Nope. If I can love my family that won't convert, why can't I love others that won't convert? Of course, I can.

I don't want to 'force' anyone to believe as I do. Do I think the only way to heaven is through Jesus Christ? Yes I do, because it is written in the scriptures. Do I think all those who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell because of it? Yes I do, because it is written in the scripture. Do I think that I am better than others because I am saved and they are not? No I don't. God has His plan for each of us and I have all I can do to keep myself straight. Once saved does not mean always saved, and an unsaved person today could become saved tomorrow, and vice versa, so who am I to judge. It is ultimately God's decision who is saved and who isn't, not mine. There are a lot of things I don't understand and probably never will, I just have to stick with what I believe and hope I'm living according to His will. I know what the bible says I must do to be saved, and so I do it, it's that simple.

Many definitions of fundamentalism links it to Protesantism. I am not a Protestant, since I belong to the church that was founded by Jesus. I don't belong to any denomination that protested against the Catholic church. The church I belong to can be found in the book of Acts.

My congregation considers themselves fundamentalist christians. Believing in the inerrancy of the bible in matters of faith and morals, and also as a historical record. We believe in the creation as told in Genesis, the virgin birth of Christ, his resurrection and foretold return. I don't know how to make that any clearer. I am not an extremist, thinking everyone has to think like I do. Believe whatever you like, I'll still love ya. God does. ;)

Someone else wrote something about calling yourself a christian and not really being one. I agree with the person that said you can tell them by their fruits. If you want to call yourself the president of the USA, fine, but I better see you working in the oval office. If you want to call yourself a christian, fine, but I better see you acting like one. Does this mean christians don't sin? NOPE. But we at least strive not to. The bible says if you say you do not sin you are calling God a liar. All people sin, not all people strive not to sin though. I hope that makes sense.

Maybe we should take this to pm's. If anyone wants to continue this conversation there, I'd be more than willing to keep it going.
right on sister....i have heard in some church's they believe once saved, always saved, the bible doesn't teach me that...........

let's continue this conversation here, you are changing attitudes my dear sister..........

TOW
09-22-2005, 21:31
Matthew 21:22 "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive"

maybe some of the xians that could believe, asking in prayer for the removing of the hurricane?

or would that be interfering with gods will and plan????
Dear Heavenly Father, I plead with You through the blood of your Son Christ Jesus to dissapate the hurricane that is now coming onto the Gulf Coast of the United States.....Thankyou for Your decision on this matter God...

and as the bible so plainly put's it "if it's according to His will, then it will be...." 1 John 5:14 - And this is the confidence that we have in him, that, if we ask any thing according to his will, he heareth us.....

TOW
09-22-2005, 21:38
Let's see 64 posts since 9/15 for TOW, 11 for Franklooper. That would make Frank more idle here at WB, but not elsewhere:-? . Of course WB could be TOW's calling...
keep counting, btw you make a good point......