Most Interesting Trailjournal Entries 2014

[Chair-man]

The new 2014 thru hiker season is upon us and many hikers have started posting their journals over at trailjounals (http://www.trailjournals.com/journals/appalachian_trail/) and I've been looking at some of them. One entry stood out. After reading this entry I'm like wow, that was a close one. I've never come close to getting hypothermia. Just wondering if some of you more experienced folks have any comments about this situation.
Here's the entry> Trillium's Trailjournal 3/3 (http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=443667)

[Sierra2015]

It was stupid to not ask for help. She could have died.

(Ignore my inexperienced comment.)

[VTATHiker]

I hope she keeps posting regularly. She's a good writer and clearly has what it takes to finish the trail.

[Foresight]

I just don't understand the concept of not making room for someone.

[Chair-man]

I was thinking that beer must have tasted pretty good after that ordeal 26212But seriously, when I hike I always try to get into camp 2 hours before sunset so I have have enough time to set up and make dinner. What did she expect arriving after dark?

[slbirdnerd]

I've been following and enjoying her journal. Really sad they couldn't make room, and knowing what I was up against I would have considering (maybe not chosen) continuing on an option rather than staying put alone somewhere and getting worse. But really, if she was becoming hypothermic, she may not have had the mindset to ask for help.

[Foresight]

She asked if there was room and only two guys made an effort. She was in trouble.....ya gotta look out for her and make room.

[Sierra2015]

She asked if there was room and only two guys made an effort. She was in trouble.....ya gotta look out for her and make room.
She should have told them her sleeping bag was wet. I don't think anyone knew she was in trouble.

If she had died it would have been her own fault. Tragic as that is....

[Foresight]

Maybe so, but I couldn't have laid there without making room even it meant I had to leave.

[bfayer]

First I want to make it clear that I am not knocking or judging this hiker. Each and everyone of us could find ourselves in this situation. What I did find interesting however is this entry in her journal:

Friday, February 21, 2014
..."I am hiking to be humbled- to know what it feels like to be scared, uncertain, frustrated, homesick, cold, wet, tired beyond belief, and in physical and mental pain." ...

That may give some insight into her decision making process.

As for people not making room in the shelter, happens all the time. One thing I hear on here very often is the saying "when it's cold and wet, there is always room for one more in the shelter". I have said it before that in my experience that is not true, so you need to be prepared if the shelter is full. This is an unfortunate example of that happening.

I am glad she made in safely, and I hope the weather clears up so she and all the other hikers out there can stay safe and enjoy their hikes.

[hikernutcasey]

Sorry to thread jack but does anyone have any good journals they would recommend following this year? I know its early but I haven't had time to sift through them yet and I always enjoy following 2 or 3 folks each year. Preferably those who are good writers and tell the story of their experience and not just a quick update on what they saw and how many mile they hiked that day.

[Foresight]

So if she doesn't get up and move one I guess you just step over her dead body in the morning, say "sucks for you" and hike on.

[HikerMom58]

So if she doesn't get up and move one I guess you just step over her dead body in the morning, say "sucks for you" and hike on.

Foresight, you are reacting to this situation like I've always heard hikers react. They look out for each other like family.

Personal example:

My girl was in the Grayson Highlands hiking on a cool wet day, in the summer. Her group arrived at Thomas Knob Shelter, they were all wet and hungry. She decided to fix her food before she changed into dry clothes. She started shaking really bad. Everyone in the shelter was watching her like a a hawk and encouraging her to go ahead and change into dry clothes. She got her trail name "Shivers" that day.

Of course, my girl didn't tell me what happened... a couple that was hiking, with her ,told me about it at the Kroger in Daleville, when they found out I was her mama! ;) They told me that if she didn't stop shaking or started acting wierd, they were going to insist or assist her in getting the wet clothes off & into a sleeping bag with someone to warm her up.

It all ended well for her without having to do that but I took great comfort in knowing that they care about each other... that goes right along with what I've always heard about the trail family.

This girl's journal doesn't sound like these hikers had the same mind set at all.

I agree with Sierra too. This girl needed to ask for help & really tell them what she was up against. That's hard to do sometimes.

[Slo-go'en]

So if she doesn't get up and move on I guess you just step over her dead body in the morning, say "sucks for you" and hike on.

That's what they do on Everest...

[FarmerChef]

Knowing how or when to ask for help in hypothermia gets progressively hard the farther they progress. And, of course, it's much easier to play Monday morning quarterback when not in the thick of it.

Here's how I see it:

Problem #1: Early in the morning, her tarp stakes come out of the ground and her warm/dry clothes and bag get wet. This is now an emergency situation. Down does not dry easily on it's own, especially in a DWR shell. With no backup sleeping clothes or gear, she needed to get off the mountain by the end of the day provided she could hike warm enough.
Problem #2: She decides to push on to a shelter with a wet bag in hopes of finding space while passing relative safety in Franklin. She should have headed straight for Franklin as her primary game plan. There she could dry out her gear while remaining warm.
Problem #3: She arrives at the shelter with no dry gear to sleep in. Forget making room, with no dry gear she would only have made others' gear wet and remained critically cold all night. This was never really a solution unless she expected to receive assistance. The emergency blanket is a last resort.
Problem #4: With no way to make room, she decides to make camp on the ground without asking for help. In this situation she should have (difficult, I know) explained her situation to the folks in the shelter and asked for help. If she had been further down the hypothermic progression, she would have lapsed into delirium or worse, fallen asleep, and the shelter would have woken up to a tragic situation.

Good decision #1: With no way to stop shivering, she packed up and kept moving until she reached warmth and safety. If I was 100 miles from anywhere with soaking wet gear and only the dryish clothes and rain gear on my body I would keep moving until I could find shelter and warmth, even if it meant walking through the night. Generating body heat in that scenario is priority number one assuming you have shelter from wind and rain (Frogg Toggs in her case were that).

She is very, very lucky and judging from her final sentence, "(And next time, I'll be sure to get to town!)" she learned her lesson.

And just like Foresight, if she'd come into a shelter we were in I would have insisted she hop into my dry bag and change into whatever dry clothes I had to spare, if needed. I've always got enough spare gear to be uncomfortable but ok. Then I would have made sure she was ok enough to safely reach NOC, making sure she did or hiking to a signal and calling SAR.

My two cents.

[Slo-go'en]

I don't understand why she didn't set up the hammock and instead tried to sleep on the ground. Granted the under quilt was wet, but she had a pad and space blanket and the top quilt apparently was still dry. No mension if she had a dry set of clothes to change into either. I suppose it was dark and she was tired and that was a big factor in not setting up the hammock.

She should have really gone to Franklin or stopped at an earlier shelter where there was space. She's lucky she had the strength to go the rest of the way to the NOC (and that is not the easiest streach of trail with the jump up to go down). But she had little choice but to get up and moving again at that point.

As for no one making space, there are full shelters and then there are really full shelters. With out having a head count, we don't know exactly how full it was. It sounds like it might have been really full. Even so, these were likely newbie thru-hikers who haven't yet learned proper behavior.

[4eyedbuzzard]

That's what they do on Everest...I think it's different in the sense that if you try to save someone else you increase your own chance of death to roughly 100%. The AT isn't in the death zone.

[4eyedbuzzard]

I just don't understand the concept of not making room for someone.


She asked if there was room and only two guys made an effort. She was in trouble.....ya gotta look out for her and make room.


Maybe so, but I couldn't have laid there without making room even it meant I had to leave.
That^, that^, and this^ - unfortunately something seems to have been lost over the years.

[HikerMom58]

That^, that^, and this^ - unfortunately something seems to have been lost over the years.

I was thinking the same thing... say it isn't soo! :(

[4eyedbuzzard]

I was thinking the same thing... say it isn't soo! :(Apparently, it is soo. I get that the trail has become overrun with the traveling carnival and that there could literally not be more space. But there also seems to be a lot more people hiking who aren't hikers in the sense that it used to mean to be one.

[Malto]

farmerChef did a nice job laying out the decisions that could have been done differently. There is another aspect of this that I find interesting. She had the physical and mental toughness to knock out a 37 mile (if that's accurate) day. Many will talk about taking extra gear for safety but this is clearly a case where fitness allowed her to hike her way out of trouble. This also shows why I believe it is great training to push your limits on mileage even if you don't expect to use it. Situations like this prove the value.

second, when her sleep system got compromised she should have addressed this in any number of ways. Town, fire, sunshine. Etc. that is the last line of safety before being forced to "hike your way to safety." I hope other that read this journal learn that shelter space should not be expected. having said that, I am a bit disappointed with other hikers reaction.

[canoe]

Knowing how or when to ask for help in hypothermia gets progressively hard the farther they progress. And, of course, it's much easier to play Monday morning quarterback when not in the thick of it.

Here's how I see it:

Problem #1: Early in the morning, her tarp stakes come out of the ground and her warm/dry clothes and bag get wet. This is now an emergency situation. Down does not dry easily on it's own, especially in a DWR shell. With no backup sleeping clothes or gear, she needed to get off the mountain by the end of the day provided she could hike warm enough.
Problem #2: She decides to push on to a shelter with a wet bag in hopes of finding space while passing relative safety in Franklin. She should have headed straight for Franklin as her primary game plan. There she could dry out her gear while remaining warm.
Problem #3: She arrives at the shelter with no dry gear to sleep in. Forget making room, with no dry gear she would only have made others' gear wet and remained critically cold all night. This was never really a solution unless she expected to receive assistance. The emergency blanket is a last resort.
Problem #4: With no way to make room, she decides to make camp on the ground without asking for help. In this situation she should have (difficult, I know) explained her situation to the folks in the shelter and asked for help. If she had been further down the hypothermic progression, she would have lapsed into delirium or worse, fallen asleep, and the shelter would have woken up to a tragic situation.

Good decision #1: With no way to stop shivering, she packed up and kept moving until she reached warmth and safety. If I was 100 miles from anywhere with soaking wet gear and only the dryish clothes and rain gear on my body I would keep moving until I could find shelter and warmth, even if it meant walking through the night. Generating body heat in that scenario is priority number one assuming you have shelter from wind and rain (Frogg Toggs in her case were that).

She is very, very lucky and judging from her final sentence, "(And next time, I'll be sure to get to town!)" she learned her lesson.

And just like Foresight, if she'd come into a shelter we were in I would have insisted she hop into my dry bag and change into whatever dry clothes I had to spare, if needed. I've always got enough spare gear to be uncomfortable but ok. Then I would have made sure she was ok enough to safely reach NOC, making sure she did or hiking to a signal and calling SAR.

My two cents. Excellant breakdown. . .

[bfayer]

Apparently, it is soo. I get that the trail has become overrun with the traveling carnival and that there could literally not be more space. But there also seems to be a lot more people hiking who aren't hikers in the sense that it used to mean to be one.

Like I said, it happens. I have been there done that. I am not saying there is an excuse for it, just that it happens. There is no good reason in the world not to make room for someone like that even if they don't have a wet sleeping bag. I have given up space for cold wet people before, and I probably will again if need be.

The lesson here is that if the weather is crappy, and your sleeping bag gets soaking wet, get the heck off the trail. Hypothermia takes away your ability to make good reasonable decisions. If you wait till your hypothermic to figure out what to do, it's a little too late. The other lesson is never count on space in a shelter...Ever.

I am glad this hiker posted her experiences on TJ. I also glad it worked out well in the long run. I wish her well.

[Rolls Kanardly]

I was thinking the same thing... say it isn't soo! :(


HikerMom58, it isn't so for some of us.
In this country we have become so distant from others even when standing next to each other. The last few days due to a car in the shop I have been taking the trolley back and forth to work. I see people get on the trolley that would rather stand for an hour ride rather than sit next to someone they do not know. Is this the new protocol, don't touch someone so you do not offend. I would like to think I would have found her a change of dry clothes, opened up my bag into a blanket and squeezed her in between myself and the next person. This would be the right thing for me to do because that is who I am. Rolls

[Chair-man]

26215 I snagged this photo of Wesser Bald Shelter off the net. The capacity is 8. I don't know what the average capacity of shelters is on the AT but this one looks awfully small compared to most of them. It was full and the main part of the bubble hasn't really passed thru yet. One more reason for me to set up my tent every night when I attempt my thru. If you double click the photo you should get a large image.

[winger]

Once one reaches true hypothermia, all bets are off, regarding "keep moving" as everything shuts down. Muscles no longer work and the brain loses capacity to reason. Eventually the victim of hypothermia just sits down and dies. Fortunately she was able to do the right thing ultimately maintaining adequate core body temperatures through continued hiking.

I have come very closing to being truly hypothermic twice, once on a long motorcycle ride, in pouring 45 degree rain. I had started the day in Florida with 75 degree temps but by the time I reached South Carolina the temps were dropping quickly.
I didn't recognize it for what it was and how at one point I felt like I would just stay on the bike and everything would be ok. I had stopped shivering. I had stopped several times trying to warm up. By the time I reached North Carolina I knew I was going to lose control of the bike so I found a rest area, went into the bathroom and stood in front of the electric hand warmer for about an hour. Thereafter, drank hot liquids and warmed up enough to safely ride on.

However, my mind was still in a fog for hours later. This occurred within 90 minutes of home, I doubt I would have made it any further if I hadn't stopped, and of course a warm motel room would have been an option in this situation, unlike the other situation that occurred to me during a blizzard while backpacking on the AT and 15 degree temps.

Lesson learned, hypothermia is insidious and incapacitating. And although I had rain gear on, it proved to be inadequate to preventing hypothermia from occurring.

[saltysack]

+1 for winter hiking with tent


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[Rolls Kanardly]

.

I have come very closing to being truly hypothermic twice, once on a long motorcycle ride, in pouring 45 degree rain.
November 1973, I was riding alone from Indiana to Michigan and the weather turned very cold and very wet. I made it home and laid under 3 blankets for most of the night. I do not wish hypothermia on anyone. I could not stop shaking. Once you have been there or close to it and you know how it feels, it is never a problem to help some one in this condition. Rolls

[tiptoe]

Regardless of Trillium's bad decision not to go to town, I'm appalled that the hikers already in the shelter didn't make room for her, whether or not they knew about the wet sleeping bag. I doubt that people would have been so uncaring a few more months into the hike, after new hikers learn the ropes and experience the perils themselves.

[bfayer]

Regardless of Trillium's bad decision not to go to town, I'm appalled that the hikers already in the shelter didn't make room for her, whether or not they knew about the wet sleeping bag. I doubt that people would have been so uncaring a few more months into the hike, after new hikers learn the ropes and experience the perils themselves.

This is just my opinion, but my guess is the hikers that would not make room, are most likely the hikers that will not be around a few months into the hike.

[SCRUB HIKER]

Rocket Llama on the PCT, on staying in her tent for 6 days during a snowstorm (part 1 of 2): http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=436497

[daddytwosticks]

26215 I snagged this photo of Wesser Bald Shelter off the net. The capacity is 8. I don't know what the average capacity of shelters is on the AT but this one looks awfully small compared to most of them. It was full and the main part of the bubble hasn't really passed thru yet. One more reason for me to set up my tent every night when I attempt my thru. If you double click the photo you should get a large image.
I've stayed at that shelter before. You can sleep more than 8 in a pinch, not to mention there is room on the dirt floor under the overhang. :)

[HikerMom58]

HikerMom58, it isn't so for some of us.
In this country we have become so distant from others even when standing next to each other. The last few days due to a car in the shop I have been taking the trolley back and forth to work. I see people get on the trolley that would rather stand for an hour ride rather than sit next to someone they do not know. Is this the new protocol, don't touch someone so you do not offend. I would like to think I would have found her a change of dry clothes, opened up my bag into a blanket and squeezed her in between myself and the next person. This would be the right thing for me to do because that is who I am. Rolls

I have no doubt there's a lot of others just like you, Rolls.. thanks being you & for the reminder! :)

I also have to agree with Buzz.. things might be trending away from this ^^ and that's just sad.

[The Cleaner]

Apparently, it is soo. I get that the trail has become overrun with the traveling carnival and that there could literally not be more space. But there also seems to be a lot more people hiking who aren't hikers in the sense that it used to mean to be one. Judging by the amount of litter, food and unwanted gear left behind at shelters, many hikers don't have a clue how to help other hikers or how to take care of the trail itself. Some hikers only care about finishing their hike no matter how they do it. 25 years ago hikers were somewhat different than today's hikers who are hiking for different reasons. Just saw a pic from Mountain Crossings of a hiker in sandals w/o socks. I'd like to see him hiking in a foot of snow. Winter is not over in the higher elevations....

[1234]

I think shelter space was irrelevant. Her down bag was wet. All her cloths were wet. What difference would it have made if she was in the shelter? As many have said, lesson learned, if your sleeping bag is down and wet you must get it dry to perform. I have sleep in a dampish down bag and I did dry it out by sleeping in it all night but it was not freezing weather, just cold.

[CarlZ993]

Knowing how or when to ask for help in hypothermia gets progressively hard the farther they progress. And, of course, it's much easier to play Monday morning quarterback when not in the thick of it.

Here's how I see it:

Problem #1: Early in the morning, her tarp stakes come out of the ground and her warm/dry clothes and bag get wet. This is now an emergency situation. Down does not dry easily on it's own, especially in a DWR shell. With no backup sleeping clothes or gear, she needed to get off the mountain by the end of the day provided she could hike warm enough.
Problem #2: She decides to push on to a shelter with a wet bag in hopes of finding space while passing relative safety in Franklin. She should have headed straight for Franklin as her primary game plan. There she could dry out her gear while remaining warm.
Problem #3: She arrives at the shelter with no dry gear to sleep in. Forget making room, with no dry gear she would only have made others' gear wet and remained critically cold all night. This was never really a solution unless she expected to receive assistance. The emergency blanket is a last resort.
Problem #4: With no way to make room, she decides to make camp on the ground without asking for help. In this situation she should have (difficult, I know) explained her situation to the folks in the shelter and asked for help. If she had been further down the hypothermic progression, she would have lapsed into delirium or worse, fallen asleep, and the shelter would have woken up to a tragic situation.

Good decision #1: With no way to stop shivering, she packed up and kept moving until she reached warmth and safety. If I was 100 miles from anywhere with soaking wet gear and only the dryish clothes and rain gear on my body I would keep moving until I could find shelter and warmth, even if it meant walking through the night. Generating body heat in that scenario is priority number one assuming you have shelter from wind and rain (Frogg Toggs in her case were that).

She is very, very lucky and judging from her final sentence, "(And next time, I'll be sure to get to town!)" she learned her lesson.

And just like Foresight, if she'd come into a shelter we were in I would have insisted she hop into my dry bag and change into whatever dry clothes I had to spare, if needed. I've always got enough spare gear to be uncomfortable but ok. Then I would have made sure she was ok enough to safely reach NOC, making sure she did or hiking to a signal and calling SAR.

My two cents.

Good synopsis of her situation.

She made a lot of poor decisions. It is fortunate that this didn't have a sad ending.

If I was staying there & didn't know her situation (compromised sleeping gear/clothing) & she showed up late at a shelter that was already packed, I'd try to make some room for her. Often times, these shelters do reach a saturation point (bad pun) where additional people are not possible.

Some hikers consciously make bad decisions. Last year, I ran into a young couple section hiking in ME (Andover to Katahdin to finish up his previous thru-hike attempt). They consciously decided not to carry a tent for their hike. I suggested they get one for a 'just in case' moment in bad weather. They didn't. In the 100-mile wilderness, their luck went south. Bad weather, small shelter, full to the max, & no tent. Fortunately, one hiker (had a shelter spot) had a 2-man tent that he loaned to them for the night. (My 1-man tent would not have worked for them & I didn't feel compelled to give up my spot in the shelter).

[takethisbread]

am I the only one who finds tarping for Early starters kind of silly? . this is the AT , maybe if trillium , who appears to be a superior hiker, had a good tent in these terrible, but typical conditions, much of this could have been averted. I wish her luck. if she gets back on, she will make it.


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[WingedMonkey]

Sunday, February 23, 2014

It's currently 3 AM, and I just got up to try to re-stake the ends of my tarp because of course my oh-so-wise choice to spend my first night on the trail on the top of a mountain (Past Hightower by about two miles or so) proved to be a very windy lack of judgement. Unfortunately, the wind won this one as my stakes are no where to be found at this dark hour. Instead I looped the ends of the tie outs to sticks and placed several rocks on top of them. This decent enough attempt to quiet the noisy cuben fiber tarp was not, however, enough to keep me from promptly getting back into my hammock and, feeling the tug and rippling of my entire set up,

Thursday, February 27, 2014

The last two nights have left me wondering why in the world I decided to leave Springer in February.

Monday, March 03, 2014

At 6:00 AM, right as I decided that I ought to at least start getting myself ready for the day, a mondo gust of wind came roaring over the side of the mountain and ripped three of my tarp stakes clean out of the now soaking wet ground.

Maybe she should have gone to Franklin and picked up a tent?

[Sierra2015]

I just browsed through her journal and she's super pretty! I dunno why nobody would make room for her. O.o


She's using a hammock, not just a tarp.

[Foresight]

"Shallow Gal"

There, I rescued you from "Kevin".....

[Sierra2015]

"Shallow Gal"

There, I rescued you from "Kevin".....
I'm not shallow! I'm matter of fact.... :p



(and shush about the Kevin thing)

[Chair-man]

I just browsed through her journal and she's super pretty! I dunno why nobody would make room for her. O.o

I was thinking the same thing. Makes you wonder who were these guys in the shelter? Some hottie walks up and asks "is it ok if squeeze in with you guys for the night?" and their like "no, sorry sweetie". Either the shelter was really really full or maybe she didn't wake everyone up.
Now, if big old smelly fat guy were to show late I can see the invite being not so much.

[bamboo bob]

I just don't understand the concept of not making room for someone.

Happened to me once at the second shelter north of Erwin. Cherry Gap? I forget. Rain. They had the full complement. Whether it was eight in an eight or six in a six I forget. It was a while back. I just put up my tent. She had a tarp so she wouldn't get much extra warmth anyway. In her situation I'm sure I would have gone to Franklin. But I understand her wanting to tough through it.

[Mags]

Regardless of her preparation or not, I was a little taken aback by the reaction of the people in the shelter: NONE.

If I saw someone shivering in front of me, I'd try my best to help the person.

Of course, it was at night, so maybe people did not realize she was shivering? (No sarcasm; being quite serious).

[rocketsocks]

26223

There should always be room for one more, otherwise...what's the point.

[Ender]

Regardless of her preparation or not, I was a little taken aback by the reaction of the people in the shelter: NONE.

If I saw someone shivering in front of me, I'd try my best to help the person.

Of course, it was at night, so maybe people did not realize she was shivering? (No sarcasm; being quite serious).

I'm actually not that surprised, since it sounds like she didn't tell anyone that her underquilt was wet. If I'd been there and someone asked if there was any extra room without explaining how dire their situation was, I would imagine I'd guess the person had a tent and just didn't want to set it up.

That said, hypothermia is a funny thing, and at that point she probably wasn't in the best state of mind and didn't even think to mention that her underquilt was wet... it really messes with your judgement like that. Scary situation overall, and I'm really glad she got out of it in one piece. Just goes to show how careful you need to be outdoors, and how even one small decision can effect things on a much grander scale over time.

Semi-related story: I was at a shelter once where someone came in demanding people make room because he wasn't carrying a tent and he was a thru hiker and deserved a space in the shelter. It didn't go over well, and he ended up having to hike on. (OK, not really related at all, just a story I like to tell)

[WingedMonkey]

I'm glad in her writings she doesn't blame anyone for her conditions. She takes full responsibility, and learns from her mistakes.

Also glad she doesn't use being a woman as a crutch or as a hustle.

[Many Moons]

You are right. Last 2013 year mid April I was headed thru the southern GSMNP NB and got up one morning at first shelter Mollies Ridge I think? It was warm and raining. A ridge runner was at the shelter(he was out of Fontana) he suggested go low on clothes and keep other stuff dry. I tried to follow rules by moving one shelter, which make sense and keeps shelters from getting to crowded. So, I am used to being outdoors and not best hiker or worst hiker. I get to next shelter-Full and keep moving. People locked up and not moving-I don't want to be in a crowded shelter anyway. HIKE ON and next shelter full also-standing room only. OK weather turned cold by now and sleeting-I am cold, but HIKE ON. 3rd shelter-I am freezing now and it is full. Not because I hike slow- started at like 6am-full because no one was moving shelter-I am not talking full, but standing room only-nasty dirty full. Pitched my tent, got out of wet clothes and into a dry down bag after some food while shivering. Next morning I was OK, but 19degrees and ice everywhere. Clothes frozen, water frozen, tent frozen, Sawyer filter cracked. I was out and done at Clingsman next day and headed home, sucks cause had 10 more days to hike-whimped out. Wish I had kept going. Redue this April.

When I left out of shelter that morning I had no idea what I was getting into weather wise or full shelters. I thought everyone would follow rules and move a shelter not hole up like the mice. 2014 HIKE ON!!!

Miller



First I want to make it clear that I am not knocking or judging this hiker. Each and everyone of us could find ourselves in this situation. What I did find interesting however is this entry in her journal:

Friday, February 21, 2014
..."I am hiking to be humbled- to know what it feels like to be scared, uncertain, frustrated, homesick, cold, wet, tired beyond belief, and in physical and mental pain." ...

That may give some insight into her decision making process.

As for people not making room in the shelter, happens all the time. One thing I hear on here very often is the saying "when it's cold and wet, there is always room for one more in the shelter". I have said it before that in my experience that is not true, so you need to be prepared if the shelter is full. This is an unfortunate example of that happening.

I am glad she made in safely, and I hope the weather clears up so she and all the other hikers out there can stay safe and enjoy their hikes.

[HikerMom58]

I'm actually not that surprised, since it sounds like she didn't tell anyone that her underquilt was wet. If I'd been there and someone asked if there was any extra room without explaining how dire their situation was, I would imagine I'd guess the person had a tent and just didn't want to set it up.

That said, hypothermia is a funny thing, and at that point she probably wasn't in the best state of mind and didn't even think to mention that her underquilt was wet... it really messes with your judgement like that. Scary situation overall, and I'm really glad she got out of it in one piece. Just goes to show how careful you need to be outdoors, and how even one small decision can effect things on a much grander scale over time.

Semi-related story: I was at a shelter once where someone came in demanding people make room because he wasn't carrying a tent and he was a thru hiker and deserved a space in the shelter. It didn't go over well, and he ended up having to hike on. (OK, not really related at all, just a story I like to tell)

Well, I don't feel sorry for the thru-hiker, then. Sounds like the hiker cocked an attitude. All my empathy & compassion is gone.

If that same hiker came in apologizing for not carrying a shelter himself, asked politely if something could be done to help him/her out- that works for me. If someone in this same situation was in a life threatening situation , attitude or not, I'd help out any way I could. I could not let someone suffer or die, bottom line. I wouldn't care if they "deserved" it.

[tiptoe]

Another semi-related story. My first section hike (Massachusetts), I arrived at a shelter and chose to hammock nearby. The shelter filled up, more or less, as dusk fell, and up the trail trudged a very fat young man hauling two tote bags packed with large soda bottles and other "food" items. He was determined to hike in spite of it all, and announced to all present that he would sleep outside on the ground since he snored and would keep everyone up. One of the hikers insisted that he sleep in the shelter, since thunderstorms were imminent. I went off to my hammock (where I stayed dry), and in the morning found him asleep, and snoring, on the shelter floor.

And yes, I looked at the Trillium's photo in her journal and agree with Sierra2015. She's young, blond, spunky, and attractive (and no, I'm not a guy). Hard to believe nobody stepped up and helped her.

[Slo-go'en]

When I left out of shelter that morning I had no idea what I was getting into weather wise or full shelters. I thought everyone would follow rules and move a shelter not hole up like the mice. 2014 HIKE ON!!!

Miller

Well, it wouldn't have made much difference. If everyone from one full shelter moves on to the next shelter, it will be full again. Chances are good at least some from each shelter pushed on to the next one, it's just that you happened to be there when everyone else was too.

I got to the Smokies in late April and left Fontana dam in the rain with one other person, while about 25 others stayed put at the fontana hilton. Since we were the only two to leave that day, we pretty much had all the shelters until north of New Found gap to ourselfs. Timing is everything!

[Many Moons]

I was the first and fastest on the trail that morning(in the area) up at 5 on trail by 6am dark or not. Like you said in your second pharagraph they were holed up with no movement(25 did not move). Glad I had a tent and warm bag. It looked nasty in the shelters anyway. Getting cold can happen to anyone that makes a bad choice. HIKE ON!!!


Miller


Well, it wouldn't have made much difference. If everyone from one full shelter moves on to the next shelter, it will be full again. Chances are good at least some from each shelter pushed on to the next one, it's just that you happened to be there when everyone else was too.

I got to the Smokies in late April and left Fontana dam in the rain with one other person, while about 25 others stayed put at the fontana hilton. Since we were the only two to leave that day, we pretty much had all the shelters until north of New Found gap to ourselfs. Timing is everything!

[Tom Murphy]

Many replies appear to be assuming the other people in the shelter were aware of the full extent of her situation.

Look at it this way: Full shelter, rainy day, late arrival asked everyone else to make room. Sorry, that is poor planning on your part. Where is your shelter? Go tent or hammock or whatever.
Not happy with the limited response, late arrival decides to camp in ground (why doesn't late arrival have a shelter?).
That could easily be percieved as a passive/agressive attempt to "shame" people into moving.

I no longer offer advice or help when hiking unless directly asked (or if it was VERY obvious that person was incapacitated).

[Sara]

Also glad she doesn't use being a woman as a crutch or as a hustle.

This. .

[takethisbread]

this case is an example of the obsession of focusing on pack weight is dangerous. and poor planning. this amazing young lady has a tiny pack, from what I can tell, and for a February start and on the AT, u need changes of clothes, multiple pairs of socks and a good shelter . I use a sil tarp . I love tarping. I wouldn't count on tarping in February on the AT. I want a bigger pack with clothes, and a good reliable stove, and I'm gonna get into camp early on poor weather days. granted, if she rolled up on me, I'd make room 1000 times out of 1000. it's the right thing to do and shes pretty. that said on rainy days if you roll up to a shelter at 7:30 pm don't expect happy occupants in there.

still I have seen days in the smokies with 30-40 hikers in a shelter so, things can be done.




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[takethisbread]

I did notice that she wasn't tarping but hammock hanging with a tarp. i just noticed how small her pack was . hammock camping can be cool and light in all seasons, but obviously it depends on the type and your particular setup. obviously hers is ill suited. I sure hope she gets back out there, I'd love to see her do well. that said , the extra 5 miles or so from the shelter to the NOC is really no big deal, it's all down hill, it's something I might have done anyway . it wasn't the most amazing hike of all time, given that she started at 6am



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[4eyedbuzzard]

this case is an example of the obsession of focusing on pack weight is dangerous. and poor planning. this amazing young lady has a tiny pack, from what I can tell, and for a February start and on the AT, u need changes of clothes, multiple pairs of socks and a good shelter . I use a sil tarp . I love tarping. I wouldn't count on tarping in February on the AT. I want a bigger pack with clothes, and a good reliable stove, and I'm gonna get into camp early on poor weather days. granted, if she rolled up on me, I'd make room 1000 times out of 1000. it's the right thing to do and shes pretty. that said on rainy days if you roll up to a shelter at 7:30 pm don't expect happy occupants in there.

still I have seen days in the smokies with 30-40 hikers in a shelter so, things can be done.




Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkYeah. I can be comfortable and safe with very light and minimal gear doing short sections where I pretty much know the weather forecast, and ultimately can bail if the unexpected happens (not that a thru-hiker can't, which was her mistake given that opportunity). But on a thru-hike in February, you've simply got to carry suitable gear, and given that shelters can be full, I don't think a tarp cuts it either unless you are really experienced and hard core.

Sometimes it seems that the "S" in SUL doesn't mean "super", but rather, "stupid".

[poopsy]

Wow, this thread has sort of given me flashbacks.

Hypothermia is evil, insidious and dangerous. I almost died of it once and it was years before I could go into the woods when it was raining. I would sooner be on the arctic barrens at 40 below, than be in the rain just above freezing temperature.

The only reason that I'm still alive is because someone else recognized the state I was in and helped me before I walked into a moving helicopter rotor. Good decisions become difficult to make and bad ones all too easy.

Unfortunately, hypothermia has to be experienced before you fully realize how bad it can be. I can understand a group of new hikers in an AT shelter -cold and tired themselves - not realizing what was happening to her.

To this day, the only things that scare me in the woods are hunters, lyme disease and being cold and wet.

[Alligator]

Many replies appear to be assuming the other people in the shelter were aware of the full extent of her situation.

Look at it this way: Full shelter, rainy day, late arrival asked everyone else to make room. Sorry, that is poor planning on your part. Where is your shelter? Go tent or hammock or whatever.
Not happy with the limited response, late arrival decides to camp in ground (why doesn't late arrival have a shelter?).
That could easily be percieved as a passive/agressive attempt to "shame" people into moving.

I no longer offer advice or help when hiking unless directly asked (or if it was VERY obvious that person was incapacitated).It's particularly rare if I stay in a shelter with other hikers, so I never run into the situation you describe of someone angling to get into the shelter. However, any time the weather is wet and rainy I'm watching out for hypothermia in me. If a hiker came in late on such a wet day, I'd be wondering if he or she was ok. Moreso if solo and particularly if throwing down on the ground without a setup overhead. Hypothermia is dangerous because it starts to affect mental processes.

She didn't speak up, but if we don't look out for fellow hikers, we are failing ourselves. It could just as easily be you or me the next time. If someone says they are hypothermic, I will stop whatever I am doing and try to help that person. Warm clothes, warm bag, quick energy foods.

She should have said something as she recognized she was hypothermic. Her stopping shivering after 10 minutes was not a good sign, that's a worsening of the condition if she hadn't actually warmed up. That's hard to tell there though she had a dry overquilt she might have warmed up. She does not mention eating at all either. It's good she has learned from it. I have had mistakes in cold weather too and learned from it.

[Mags]

"Experience is a great teacher, but the tuition is high"

[Sarcasm the elf]

Unfortunately, hypothermia has to be experienced before you fully realize how bad it can be. I can understand a group of new hikers in an AT shelter -cold and tired themselves - not realizing what was happening to her.


This is very true. I've been reluctant to chime in on this thread except to say that it is clear from the replies so far that those of us who have experienced hypothermia seem to be far more sympathetic to Trillium's story. One of my biggest concerns when hiking is the effect that extreme heat, cold, exhaustion and dehydration can have on my decision making process. Like others have said, i would rather be hiking in subzero (f*) weather than in a 35 degree rainstorm.

I think that the risk of making dangerous decisions when you are not thinking clearly is one of the major risks of backpacking that is unfortunately rarely talked about.







"Experience is a great teacher, but the tuition is high"




I always preferred the saying:
Good decisions come from experience, experience comes from making bad decisions.

[Sierra2015]

Regardless of her preparation or not, I was a little taken aback by the reaction of the people in the shelter: NONE.

If I saw someone shivering in front of me, I'd try my best to help the person.

Of course, it was at night, so maybe people did not realize she was shivering? (No sarcasm; being quite serious).
Which is why she should have asked for help!

But through reading this thread I'm starting to see maybe she wasn't thinking clearly.


And yes, I looked at the Trillium's photo in her journal and agree with Sierra2015. She's young, blond, spunky, and attractive (and no, I'm not a guy). Hard to believe nobody stepped up and helped her. Maybe someone was rude at some point?? Not necessarily her, but the two guy friends? She said they were trying to make room for her and they may have been a little too brash.

Guess we'll never know.


Also glad she doesn't use being a woman as a crutch or as a hustle.


This. .
Accepting help isn't "hustling."

It would have been smart of her to ask for help instead of potentially dying.

[WingedMonkey]

Asking for help is not hustling.

This is:


I just browsed through her journal and she's super pretty! I dunno why nobody would make room for her.

[Sierra2015]

Someone noticing she's pretty isn't her hustling either.

[Sara]

Physical attractiveness shouldn't be a ticket to expecting special treatment. A hiker is a hiker.


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[WingedMonkey]

Someone noticing she's pretty isn't her hustling either.

You're right unattractive women should sleep on the ground.

I stand corrected.

[HikerMom58]

Someone noticing she's pretty isn't her hustling either.

It's just a fact. You just stated what we all were thinking.. we all know that good looking people can/do get more attention than not so good looking ones.
Welcome to our world.

[Sierra2015]

Physical attractiveness shouldn't be a ticket to expecting special treatment. A hiker is a hiker.


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You're right unattractive women should sleep on the ground.

I stand corrected.

I'm glad we all agree. :p



I don't want to fight... I was more commenting on the nature of men than her expectations or her "hustling" request.

Guys can be a little dorky and too willing to please when a pretty girl asks for something.

[HikerMom58]

Physical attractiveness shouldn't be a ticket to expecting special treatment. A hiker is a hiker.


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You are correct, Sara. It shouldn't matter but sometimes is does, unfortunately.

[Last Call]

I fail to understand what her being attractive or not has to do with the price of tea in China.....after all, she had wet hair & her make-up was probably demolished at that point. Wasn't it dark as well? All that taken into consideration those youngsters still should have pampered her, even if she was as ugly as a homemade board fence! Is chivalry dead, or what?

[Trillium]

I fail to understand what her being attractive or not has to do with the price of tea in China.....after all, she had wet hair & her make-up was probably demolished at that point. Wasn't it dark as well? All that taken into consideration those youngsters still should have pampered her, even if she was as ugly as a homemade board fence! Is chivalry dead, or what?

I can vouch that chivalry or gentlemanlyness is definitely not dead. Last year I had just a horrendously tough hike from Unicoi Gap up to Tray Mountain Shelter. Didn't get started until around 12:30, felt like it was about 100 degrees (it wasn't really) and didn't have my wind yet. On the hike up Tray Mtn to the shelter I was passed by at least half a dozen male hikers and they all encouraged me. When I finally straggled into the shelter area, I was BEAT and just didn't feel like I had the energy to hang my hammock. I noted that the shelter was full but there was space at the edge of the shelter so I asked the hikers in the shelter if anyone would mind if I slept at their feet at the edge of the shelter as I was too tired to hang my hammock. Before anyone could answer, I was very surprised when one young man, I'd say he was about 19, jumped up and said he would hang his hammock so I could have his spot. I tried to protest since I would have been fine sleeping along the edge but he insisted that I take his spot. I was very impressed with Reese and the fine gentleman that his parents had raised. He was hiking with his sister and my recollection is that they were from Maryland.

Also please note in case you didn't read my post in the too frequently used trailnames thread, that I am not the Trillium that is currently hiking and was the subject of the initial post in this thread.

[Del Q]

Just on page one here, but...........a woman shows up and nobody opens the door for her?

Sorry, I am older and old fashioned I guess

Nobody in the shelter had a tent to loan or leave, make room, offer help, pitch a tent and sleep there..........where it is warmer anyway?

[HikerMom58]

I can vouch that chivalry or gentlemanlyness is definitely not dead. Last year I had just a horrendously tough hike from Unicoi Gap up to Tray Mountain Shelter. Didn't get started until around 12:30, felt like it was about 100 degrees (it wasn't really) and didn't have my wind yet. On the hike up Tray Mtn to the shelter I was passed by at least half a dozen male hikers and they all encouraged me. When I finally straggled into the shelter area, I was BEAT and just didn't feel like I had the energy to hang my hammock. I noted that the shelter was full but there was space at the edge of the shelter so I asked the hikers in the shelter if anyone would mind if I slept at their feet at the edge of the shelter as I was too tired to hang my hammock. Before anyone could answer, I was very surprised when one young man, I'd say he was about 19, jumped up and said he would hang his hammock so I could have his spot. I tried to protest since I would have been fine sleeping along the edge but he insisted that I take his spot. I was very impressed with Reese and the fine gentleman that his parents had raised. He was hiking with his sister and my recollection is that they were from Maryland.

Also please note in case you didn't read my post in the too frequently used trailnames thread, that I am not the Trillium that is currently hiking and was the subject of the initial post in this thread.

THanks for sharing this Trillium!! Yessssss!! :sun