View Full Version : Hand Sanitizers
Rolls Kanardly
03-10-2014, 16:20
After reading many posts on norovirus I hope I know all the things to do so I do not get the virus. Clean my dishes, do not share food sources, wash my body parts, etc. It is this "Wash my body parts" that has been lurking in the back of my mine. It is the hands that would transfer the virus bugs quicker than any thing I would think and we should all know how to use hand soaps and sanitizers to stop the spread. A squirt of two into the palms of our hand and rub all over. Right? Well maybe some are not cleaning our hands as good as we think. I work in a high volume office where we all share the reception function. Almost everyone that comes in to the front desk makes use of a squirt or two of sanitizer from our quart bottle. I started watching how the hands were being cleaned and guess what? The majority spread the gel in a circular motion around and around their hands and do what looks to be a great job on the palms, back of hands, and fingers. What is being forgotten or missed is the dirtiest part of the hand, the finger nails. The majority of the people using the hand sanitizer were missing the tips of their fingers. Could this little oversight be the cause of at least a small portion of the norovirus bug being past on from one hiker to another? I will certainly clean underneath my finger nails if I have any left after hiking for a distance. Rolls Kanardly
A bar of Ivory soap. Hot water. Think of scrubbing before surgery.
Wayne
Rolls Kanardly
03-10-2014, 16:43
Hi Wayne,
Yes
That is what I was talking about. The right motion is the key. Rolls
perdidochas
03-10-2014, 17:55
After reading many posts on norovirus I hope I know all the things to do so I do not get the virus. Clean my dishes, do not share food sources, wash my body parts, etc. It is this "Wash my body parts" that has been lurking in the back of my mine. It is the hands that would transfer the virus bugs quicker than any thing I would think and we should all know how to use hand soaps and sanitizers to stop the spread. A squirt of two into the palms of our hand and rub all over. Right? Well maybe some are not cleaning our hands as good as we think. I work in a high volume office where we all share the reception function. Almost everyone that comes in to the front desk makes use of a squirt or two of sanitizer from our quart bottle. I started watching how the hands were being cleaned and guess what? The majority spread the gel in a circular motion around and around their hands and do what looks to be a great job on the palms, back of hands, and fingers. What is being forgotten or missed is the dirtiest part of the hand, the finger nails. The majority of the people using the hand sanitizer were missing the tips of their fingers. Could this little oversight be the cause of at least a small portion of the norovirus bug being past on from one hiker to another? I will certainly clean underneath my finger nails if I have any left after hiking for a distance. Rolls Kanardly
Everything I've read says that norovirus isn't especially susceptible to hand sanitizer. The hand sanitizer should be a backup to soap and water.
cliffdiver
03-10-2014, 18:55
A bar of Ivory soap. Hot water. Think of scrubbing before surgery.
Wayne
There is a distinct lack of hot water on the trail and the temperatures needed to make a difference would burn someone. Soap and cold water would do just as well. I believe, after somehow avoiding it last year, it really comes down to luck rather than practices once the virus starts to spread. There were stories of people doing everything right and still getting noro and a lucky few didn't. Proper hygiene certainly can't hurt as well as sick hikers getting off the trail and away from other hikers.
Drybones
03-10-2014, 20:53
My little bottle of hand sanitizer may have made it 10 miles before it was all over my pack and gear...I just wore the germs after that.
Sierra2015
03-11-2014, 05:12
Scrub your nails against the palms of your hands.
Also... friction kills germs. So if you have to use cold water make sure you use it vigorously.
daddytwosticks
03-11-2014, 07:14
From what I gathered in the past, staying away from shelters and privies, not sharing food with other hikers, and being careful after handling the shelter registers seem like the three biggies. :)
Ok. Ok. Hot water as and when available. Sorry, but Mom taught me to use hot water. Old habits die hard.
Anecdotal & scientific evidence point to "hand sanitizer" not being effective. Do you suppose that the AT norovirus made it to the cruise ship that was recently hit by a similar outbreak? An interesting theory: The nasty virus travels in a circle. Up the AT. Down the coast on cruise ships. Back up the AT in an endless cycle.
Have their been any years when the CDT or PCT were similarly affected?
Wayne
perdidochas
03-11-2014, 09:47
Ok. Ok. Hot water as and when available. Sorry, but Mom taught me to use hot water. Old habits die hard.
Anecdotal & scientific evidence point to "hand sanitizer" not being effective. Do you suppose that the AT norovirus made it to the cruise ship that was recently hit by a similar outbreak? An interesting theory: The nasty virus travels in a circle. Up the AT. Down the coast on cruise ships. Back up the AT in an endless cycle.
Have their been any years when the CDT or PCT were similarly affected?
Wayne
Norovirus is everywhere, not just the AT and cruise ships. When my sons were small, it went through the daycares/kindergardens around here. They each caught it three times or so. My wife and I caught it a few times from them as well--it is not a very comfortable. The problem in all cases is too many people in close proximity spreading it.
Old Hiker
03-11-2014, 10:43
My ritual to try and stay "cleaner":
Bathroom:
#1: sanitizer
#2: sanitizer after hole is filled. I figured anything on my hands needs to be cleaned/killed BEFORE handling my water bottle, pack, toiletry kit, etc. Wash with soap sheets and water as soon as I got back to my pack, then more sanitizer.
Food prep: soap sheets and water before starting meals. Sanitizer before snacks.
Before sleeping: wet wipe for face, then pits, then privates. In that order. Makes a difference. Never mind how I know. :rolleyes:
Waking up: wash hands and face with soap sheet and water before brushing teeth and making breakfast.
Repeat as needed.
Never heard of any noro during my 2012 attempt, though. I wasn't part of the herd as well.
double d
03-11-2014, 15:23
put the hand sanitizer in zip lock bag, problem solved.
Old Hiker
03-11-2014, 18:12
put the hand sanitizer in zip lock bag, problem solved.
This. Plus everything else.
Not necessarily in ONE zip lock bag, but you get the idea.
ChinMusic
03-11-2014, 18:23
Washing your hands well is very important. More important in my mind is keeping your hands away from your face as much as possible.
During the day you are going to be touching things that other hikers have touched, that may be as innocuous as rock and tree handholds. You need to consider your own hands as dangerous to your health.
Tuckahoe
03-14-2014, 13:31
Personally, I dropped hand sanitizer from my kit and just carry the soap. Soap and water is simply more effective, and sanitizer is even less effective when the hands are soiled.
Redrowen
03-14-2014, 15:20
Soap, water, and friction is all you need. Friction being the key measure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCVu_1d9AJ8
I’ve been hit with the norovirus and have written a few norovirus tracking reports as it rampantly spread through a number health care facilities. Lot of times it down to the luck of the draw. I've seen some take every possible means to avoid the virus come down with it and some not practicing safe procedures avoid the virus altogether.
Personal hygiene and proper waste disposal are often neglected by some hikers on the trail for various reasons. It is hard to avoid contaminated areas while on the trail due to the lack of facilities and because the host(s) are moving through a narrow corridor in the same direction as you, or have contaminated the area you are heading.
To enhance your chances of avoiding a known norovirus outbreak you should avoid hostels, shelters, picnic tables, restrooms and objects hikers might touch such as railings or door knobs. Avoid sharing food, water bottles, and utensils. Practice proper personal and waste hygiene, then thoroughly wash your gear and clothes as soon as you can.
The Norovirus is a lot of fun if you do get it!
double d
03-14-2014, 15:47
soap? really? I don't remember seeing too many (if at all) hikers on any trail that I've hike that carries a bar of soap. "Hey, buddy, can I borrow your big, fat bar of Irish Spring"? Hand Sanitizer works best, use that.
Redrowen
03-14-2014, 17:33
I use and know a number of others who use a tiny hotel size bar of soap, I store mine in a 2x3 zip lock bag and fold it up when I store it away. A small bar of soap will function longer and is more versatile than a small container of hand sanitizer.
I think a lot of people prefer hand sanitizer because it is quick and easy (instant gratification society), but many are misconstrued about its intended purpose.
Hand sanitizer is not intended to be a replacement for proper hand washing and does not work if your hands are visibly dirty. If you want to keep your hands properly clean to avoid nasty stuff like the norovirus you need to use soap.
Nothing wrong with using hand sanitizer, but as pointed out earlier in the thread, it does not kill Norovirus. It kills a lot of other critters, but not Noro.
Norovirus is not the only thing that makes people sick, so hand sanitizer and soap and water are still very good ideas IMHO.
My little bottle of hand sanitizer may have made it 10 miles before it was all over my pack and gear...I just wore the germs after that.
I keep mine in my shorts pocket. After resupply if I still have a second I have started using yet I put it in a plastic bag in the outside mesh pocket of my ULA Catalyst.
Drybones
03-14-2014, 18:40
I heard somewhere on the news that they believe using hand sanitizer a lot may cause sterility...don't know if there's anything to it but find it interesting that my female doctor is having to adopt.
Wise Old Owl
03-14-2014, 20:15
Personally, I dropped hand sanitizer from my kit and just carry the soap. Soap and water is simply more effective, and sanitizer is even less effective when the hands are soiled.
Well put it back in a tiny bottle.. when it contains Triclosan its better than an antibiotic. It's use in different concentrations for controlling flesh eating bacteria and Mrsa. One Boy Scout used it from the EME kit to start a small fire to stay alive... Too many uses, to leave it out.
Soap, water, and friction is all you need. Friction being the key measure.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zCVu_1d9AJ8
I’ve been hit with the norovirus and have written a few norovirus tracking reports as it rampantly spread through a number health care facilities. Lot of times it down to the luck of the draw. I've seen some take every possible means to avoid the virus come down with it and some not practicing safe procedures avoid the virus altogether.
Personal hygiene and proper waste disposal are often neglected by some hikers on the trail for various reasons. It is hard to avoid contaminated areas while on the trail due to the lack of facilities and because the host(s) are moving through a narrow corridor in the same direction as you, or have contaminated the area you are heading.
To enhance your chances of avoiding a known norovirus outbreak you should avoid hostels, shelters, picnic tables, restrooms and objects hikers might touch such as railings or door knobs. Avoid sharing food, water bottles, and utensils. Practice proper personal and waste hygiene, then thoroughly wash your gear and clothes as soon as you can.
The Norovirus is a lot of fun if you do get it!
Yes it is, but when you discuss avoidance, that's a waste of time... when was the last time you avoided a gas pump handle?... IMO what you are suggesting cannot be done... how about preventing the transfer to the nose and eyes by using a kleenex.
Noroviruses are relatively resistant. They can survive temperatures as high as 140°F and quick steaming processes that are often used for cooking shellfish.
Nothing wrong with using hand sanitizer, but as pointed out earlier in the thread, it does not kill Norovirus. It kills a lot of other critters, but not Noro.
Norovirus is not the only thing that makes people sick, so hand sanitizer and soap and water are still very good ideas IMHO. Yes Alcohol doesn't kill noro and bleach is ineffective based on my last course at Delaware State University... yet the CDC is still preaching bleach.
I heard somewhere on the news that they believe using hand sanitizer a lot may cause sterility...don't know if there's anything to it but find it interesting that my female doctor is having to adopt.
Uh Alcohol has a huge part in fertility - making ugly folk look good... Which French grapevine were you listening to?
That Cruise ship thing... yea - they were handing out before each meal non alcoholic wipes and towels... So many chemicals... well I found that interesting..
Seriously not everyone is as good as the Japanese about hygiene - this is a cultural thing.. Just like bedbugs were re-introduced into this country - you have to see what is going on in a cruise ship and draw your own conclusion... There was a post last month that stuck out about backpacking and who got sick for bad practices... I took it to heart... if someone can remember how to find that thread please Pm me, I would be grateful.
Hope you all had a good chuckle!
Old Hiker
03-14-2014, 22:25
soap? really? I don't remember seeing too many (if at all) hikers on any trail that I've hike that carries a bar of soap. "Hey, buddy, can I borrow your big, fat bar of Irish Spring"? Hand Sanitizer works best, use that.
http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Biodegradable-Camp-Cleaner-sheets/dp/B003EMAFO2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1394850216&sr=8-1&keywords=coleman+soap+sheets
squeezebox
03-14-2014, 22:34
And don't forget to bring Imodium or generic, in case you get hit this year.
Sierra2015
03-14-2014, 23:52
I heard somewhere on the news that they believe using hand sanitizer a lot may cause sterility...don't know if there's anything to it but find it interesting that my female doctor is having to adopt.
I bet it has more to do with the fact she spent her fertile years in med school.
double d
03-15-2014, 01:39
http://www.amazon.com/Coleman-Biodegradable-Camp-Cleaner-sheets/dp/B003EMAFO2/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1394850216&sr=8-1&keywords=coleman+soap+sheets
Now that might work! Thanks for posting this.
I keep small bottles of hand sanitizer in the same pocket with my gorp and trail snacks,in my ziplock with my TP and in my kitchen kit! I've found that I use it more often when it's readily available!
I also carry Dr Bronners in a small dropper bottle for "bathing"!
bamboo bob
03-15-2014, 12:36
In a lot of miles I have seen one bar of soap on the AT. Some one left it in a spring. Motel soap. Please if you are using a bar of soap do not wash in the spring or creek. take some water away from the water source. It sucks for the next guy to drink your soap. Plus soap kills the little critters that live in the water like frogs, etc. Be nice.
Odd Man Out
03-15-2014, 15:09
In a lot of miles I have seen one bar of soap on the AT. Some one left it in a spring. Motel soap. Please if you are using a bar of soap do not wash in the spring or creek. take some water away from the water source. It sucks for the next guy to drink your soap. Plus soap kills the little critters that live in the water like frogs, etc. Be nice.
+1 - This is why I hate the term "biodegradable soap". It fools people into thinking that it is OK to use it in lakes and streams (it isn't). It also fools people into thinking that some soap is biodegradable and other soap isn't. Technically, all soap is biodegradable. Detergents are not, but soap is.
I decided to amputate my hands. Problem solved.
misterfloyd
03-18-2014, 19:26
I have been following this norovirus with keen interest since I will be hiking that way this summer. I usually use a Sawyer squeeze 50% and my AquaMira 50% as well. Since AquaMira kills viruses, I'm going to use this a lot more since we are all drinking from the same places.
Another Kevin
03-18-2014, 20:07
Count me among the hikers that carry soap. A little squeeze bottle of Dr Bronner's. It's useful for washing my cup and pot, my socks, and me.
In areas with good soil absorption, wash water goes in a cathole. In areas with poor soil absorption, wash water is spread out, well, as far as I can fling it. It's soap, not detergent, anyway, so it'll degrade pretty quickly.
If I'm not near a water source, I leave an open water bottle back by my pack, and the vial of soap next to it. when I do Deuteronomy 23:13. That way my dirty hands are nowhere near the cap of the bottle. I wash the outside of the bottle where I've handled it (just rub with the soapy water from my hands and then with the rinse water). It takes only a few ounces of water.
These precautions are great for bacteria and things like rotavirus or coxsackievirus. Norovirus, though, is hard to avoid. It often causes violent enough D&V that a sufferer is surrounded by airborne droplets and every surface nearby is contaminated, so it's quite possible to pick it up just walking through.
Stay away from shelters and privies, if you must have contact with another hiker, make it eye contact only.
MDSection12
03-19-2014, 08:20
I carry a Five Hour Energy bottle of bleach with me now. If need be I'd mix some into some water and use that to clean up. Soap is fine for most applications but in some cases you just want to know you're clean. (Like when my dog rolled in crap while on the trail.)
Rolls Kanardly
03-19-2014, 15:39
Everything I've read says that norovirus isn't especially susceptible to hand sanitizer. The hand sanitizer should be a backup to soap and water.
Soap and water for me too. I was not specifically promoting hand sanitizers. We use a lot of it at my work place and I was hoping my observations will help someone make hand sanitizer more effective. If one person uses it in a better manner and does not get sick it is well worth the post. Rolls