Down clothes and a lighter bag? Anyone using this approach?

[Weather-man]

I've been pondering a WM Antelope for the colder weather but am a bit hesitant to buy a heavier bag. My current bag, a Zpack 30 degree has been perfect down into the low 20s if I dress correctly. This got me thinking....

Instead of investing serious cash in another bag that would see limited use I thought I'd play around with down pants and socks as part of the sleep system. I already carry either a nano-puff or a light down vest, which I often use for sleeping in colder weather. I'm thinking that good down pants, socks and maybe a down hood, combined with the Zpack bag, should get me into the lower teens and maybe below.

The above set up would also allow me to drop my mid weight merino long johns which weigh about the same as the down pants and socks...so the weight would be a wash. The down pant set up would also be very flexible, allowing for a variety of temp conditions. Another plus would be camp shores in the morning would be a bit more pleasant when it's cold out.

The only down side that I can see is all of that down and if it got wet. The merino is forgiving but the down isn't. Other than that I'm intrigued by the idea.

Is anyone using a similar set-up? Thoughts or comments?

I suppose what's salient os that I'm looking for a solid multi-functional sleep system that weighs under 2 lbs and can get me close to 0 degrees.

[psyculman]

This winter i bought two of the Royal Falcon down jackets from Walmart, one my size, and one a size larger. $30 each, and 11.7 oz. apiece. I wore one over the other and a pair of Montbell UL down pants. ($145, ouch) This combination was plenty warm at an air temperature of 17 deg. Along with my DIY down quilt, it all compressed very small, and is very comfortable to sleep in. I would imagine it would be adiquate to temperatures much lower. Packed in a plastic bag, the items cannot get wet, but I use them in cold winter conditions, so, rain is very unlikely.

[Venchka]

I might be a minority of one, but I would be hesitant to venture out in cold weather without a wool layer of some weight/warmth. Skin tight wool bottoms are much better for hiking if it is cold and windy, like today and tomorrow are going to be along the TN-NC border. Wool is also much better anytime it is WET, cold & windy, like today and tomorrow along the TN-NC border.
I think you may be on the right track, just don't give up an insulation layer that works when you aren't in the bag.
I own an Antelope. When I need it, I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Good luck. Experiment before you get too far back in the woods. Let us know what you finally decide.

Wayne

[Slo-go'en]

Down needs to loft in order to provide insulation. I think you would negate a lot of that loft by wearing it laying down. Also, the bag would have to be really loose so that the jacket and pants could loft up. Although, maybe using a quilt would work better. Wearing a down suit would help eliminate the draft problem quilts and even a sleeping bag can have.

[Mags]

In shoulder season, I extend my quilt (25F) by wearing puffy pants (military liner pants) and my hooded down coat. I also swap in a z-lite vs my usual blue foamer because of the extra R-value.

I think a quilt works better for layering as it less likely to crush the loft on my garments vs a sleeping bag that may be a bit more snug.

[swjohnsey]

I carried a 35 degree WM Highlight the whole time. I had some Feathered Friends (I think) down booties that came in handy a couple of times. On really cold nights I slept in balacava, cloves and fleece layer.

[Just Bill]

Weather-man-
Really it sounds like the choice is- should you drop $500 on a new sleeping bag or spend the money on other items that are more versatile?

If money is tight I agree with versatility, although you and others point out two potential flaws-
Too much down- especially if we are talking the humid/wet AT, if you do get wet you'll have little option but to start a fire and sit next it. Even when below freezing around the clock, since those layers are also wearable you still have to worry about body vapor building up in your down pieces and reducing thier effectiveness.
Too little space- Loft is all that matters when talking down. Piling on the layers and squeezing into a mummy bag will give you some benefit, but not as much as you may be thinking when it's all said and done. If you are out for more than a weekend figure a 10% loss in loft from ambient air and body vapor. Even more if it will be a full week.

So what else could you do for $500-
The easiest and my favorite would be to purchase a quilt from Tim at Enlightened equipment. A prodigy made of synthetic (APEX) would work well. His quilts completely open flat like a comforter and would lay over the top of your current Zpacks bag without affecting the loft of either item. You could also get it oversized (wide) so you could button it up tight on colder nights with little impact to the Zpacks bag. I would think a 40 degree at around a pound would be a good addition, but discuss it with Tim.

I put my 50 degree homemade version around my 32 degree down bag and can take it to the 20's. Tim knows all the math that I don't to tell you exactly which quilt thickness to pair with your 30 degree down but 40 seems in the ball park especially if you wear the right base layer and hat- see below.

Even with options this is a quality quilt well under $200 that is useful during other times of the year. http://www.enlightenedequipment.com/?product=prodigy In addition the synthetic fill would be a good safety piece combination with the down bag you already have. During the hot humid months you would want a synthetic quilt anyway so that's easy enough.

Joe's goose hood-http://www.zpacks.com/accessories/gooosehood.shtml
$65 is expensive but for a super great and versatile piece that compliments all your bags and fills in the missing hood in your current bag this seems like a good fit.

Finally- you could invest the remaining dollars in some quality baselayer pieces that are also good year round. My two favorite remain the Merino 1 tops and Cap 4 pieces by Patagonia, although many pieces are comparable. I wear those two pieces along with a houdini jacket inside my sleeping bags or quilts to get another 10-15 degrees when needed and since they won't compress as I toss around I get thier full insulating value.

Anything much more than that is kind of a waste. Rather than wear my Nano-puff i simply lay it over my feet or core outside my bag as this seems like a better use of it's loft. I have occasionally worn a vest inside my bag but that is also an easy piece to add to the feet.

All that said though-
If you are going to be out long enough or use it enough- there is no substitute for a good mummy bag in truly cold weather (about 15 and under for me). When it dips to 20 I switch to a 10 degree marmot, colder than that and I have a -25 rated TNF bag. The marmot is now over 10 years old and the North Face bag nearly 20. A good quality down bag is a solid investment IF
you need it and will last you several hundred evenings of chilly camping.

These days though I use all the other items much more frequently and am thankfull I own them.

[Venchka]

Once upon a time, a long time ago, folks carried a down parka and half bag. It worked. Trouble is, half bags disappeared from the market. I recon today's quilts are a substitute.

Wayne

[Just Bill]

Once upon a time, a long time ago, folks carried a down parka and half bag. It worked. Trouble is, half bags disappeared from the market. I recon today's quilts are a substitute.

Wayne
I have a homemade half bag (elephant's foot is what I always called them). Turns out with todays materials it made little sense to me for backpacking. As an "I hope I don't loose all my toes if I have to bivy on my one day mountain climb" option I like them.

My elephant's foot weighed 8 ounces, but I needed an 11 ounce jacket to go with it and still wasn't quite warm enough. My full length quilt weighs an 11.5 ounces, and I can wear my Merino 1 and Cap 4 top and sleep comfortably down to 40, and not die down to 30.

No personal experience- but I figure the problem scales up to warmer bags too and that's why the concept busted out.
My personal rule- around 30 I stop playing with the quilt and go with the mummy- the weight evens out around there, and it's real nice to zip up when it's chilly out. Quilts can work below there, but they often need to be 10-20 degrees warmer than a comparable mummy for the job IMO.

[Drybones]

This winter i bought two of the Royal Falcon down jackets from Walmart, one my size, and one a size larger. $30 each, and 11.7 oz. apiece. I wore one over the other and a pair of Montbell UL down pants. ($145, ouch) This combination was plenty warm at an air temperature of 17 deg. Along with my DIY down quilt, it all compressed very small, and is very comfortable to sleep in. I would imagine it would be adiquate to temperatures much lower. Packed in a plastic bag, the items cannot get wet, but I use them in cold winter conditions, so, rain is very unlikely.

I bought a couple of those Walmart jackets for $21 each, they shortly after went down to $9, but with limited size selection. I did a DWR treatment on them yesterday, turned out good.

[Venchka]

...
No personal experience- but I figure the problem scales up to warmer bags too and that's why the concept busted out.
My personal rule- around 30 I stop playing with the quilt and go with the mummy- the weight evens out around there, and it's real nice to zip up when it's chilly out. Quilts can work below there, but they often need to be 10-20 degrees warmer than a comparable mummy for the job IMO.

Thanks! All the more reason to keep my WM Antelope. I was beginning to get Quilt Envy.
Cheers.

Wayne

[Dogwood]

You're getting into an area where the details definitely do matter. IMHO, you're getting edgy, even from my UL perspective.

Think about what you're doing. You are asking if you can build a warm enough somewhat edgy UL sleep system around a 30* ZPacks Sleeping Bag(basically a quilt w/ a zipper option) that compares to the warmth and features of a WM Antelope 5* conventional sleeping bag. You can do it but....

I regularly take my sleeping bags/quilts 12*-15* below their lower temp ratings(but sometimes as much as 20* on occasion BUT WITHOUT REGULARITY) under a cat cut/flat tarp(not a tarp tent) or while cowboying in cold temps(below 55*). BUT, the colder the ambient outside temp the less inclined I am to max out this temp discrepancy with regularity though. In other words, from my perspective, risks from cold when outside temps drop below 50* increase so I'm not as willing to push the extremes with my sleep system with regularity especially if I'm not carrying a tent or exposure risks increase entering the equation. For me, under these scenarios it's time to suck it up and go to a UL lower temp rating bag/quilt so I can sleep safely and well on longer duration COLD hikes WITHOUT having to deal with making up the warmth discrepancy through a more complex kit.

I've found, in my experience, when considering what you currently are Weatherman, it's not just about wt or $. It's also about volume. When I've tried to come up with a sleep system that regularly has me sleeping in 0* outside temps with say a Zpacks 30* bag(basically a quilt w/ a zipper option) with all the things I'm doing to make up for a 30* warmth discrepancy, while cowboying or under a tarp, the volume can start adding up with all the different additional clothing/gear pieces. So, now that factors into UL philosophy. Backpacking becomes more and more complicated. Sleep comfort can become hampered as well. And, for what, I ask myself? I highly value my sleep and warmth, even more so as the temps plummet below 50* I ask myself, "wasn't going UL suppose to simplify backpacking?"

In my experience, the edgy most advanced ULers/SULers that are taking their sleeping bags/quilts 30* below their lower temp rating aren't doing it with regularity or with regularity on longer duration cold weather hikes in outside temps below 20*. Almost always, if I ask enough questions I realize something wasn't initially being told to me that was critical to how they do this.

In my mind, FOR ME, after thinking through these things as an ULer, and massive believer in kit integration(which is what you are talking about), it simply is better to switch out to a lower temp rated bag under the scenario you described - unless there are other considerations(which there always are!) that you haven't mentioned to us. :) I'm totally on board with what JB said along these lines, "If you are going to be out long enough or use it enough- there is no substitute for a good mummy bag in truly cold weather."

The other thing I did for awhile in COLD temps( below 0*) when I was cash strapped(I had my eye on a $$$ COLD weather Valandre sleeping bag for the future but couldn't afford it at the time) but wanted greater versatility in cold weather sleeping was add a rather moderately priced(under $170) UL 50* Enlightened Equipment Prodigy quilt to the mix - EXACTLY as JB talked about so I'm totally in sync with his quilt idea. I always had in mind an ultimate sleeping bag/quilt line up though! I layer(ed) this atop my 10* WM Versalite which gets me down to about -15*- -20* while wearing some sleeping layers NOT in a tent. More importantly, the EE Prodigy quilt fit nicely into my UL summer time big mileage per day wetter environment and tropics hiking kit AND I use it as an UQ in my Dream Darien hammock set up, so I got good use out of this quilt purchase.

FOR ME, under the scenario you described, the question became, "will I get more use out of UL high end down pants or a EE 50* Prodigy ClimaShield Apex quilt?" FOR ME, that quilt was the better choice. I love my Goosefeet Down Booties though. :)

[Dogwood]

"My personal rule- around 30 I stop playing with the quilt and go with the mummy- the weight evens out around there, and it's real nice to zip up when it's chilly out. Quilts can work below there, but they often need to be 10-20 degrees warmer than a comparable mummy for the job IMO."

That's my current take as well.

[Drybones]

I view my bag not only as sleeping gear but also as survival gear. I want a bag I can crawl, and at some point I may have to do just that, into and get warm after nearly freezing to death. I can tolerate being cold up moving around but when the weather turns really nasty I want to be able to hunker down and wait it out. The fewer cloths I have on up to a bags rating the warmer I am. If I fall into a freezing river my clothes may get wet but not my bag, it's always in a waterproof bag. Maybe reading Jack London's short story "To build a Fire" when I was a kid made me over cautious.

[Dogwood]

That's a good pt. Always have something dry to get into. Your dry sleeping bag/shelter/quilt will save your life especially in those cold temps.

[Just Bill]

Maybe reading Jack London's short story "To build a Fire" when I was a kid made me over cautious.

I woulda thunk it would make you learn how to build a fire...:eek:

Agree with you though 90%, the other 10% nobody want's to hear.

[Bagge Pants]

I'm using a similar setup to your idea. I have used it occasionally at slightly below freezing and stayed extremely warm. The system is 900 down filled 30 degree mummy with 800 filled down pants in a bivy with a mesh chest and face under a low tarp. I use a low dome tarp and can collapse one side lower or the ceiling lower. I go to sleep in full layers including a hooded wool top layer, down jacket and rain precip. Throughout the night if I get too hot I unzip part of the tarp, unzip the mummy or remove layers. More options are unzipping the feet of the mummy, stringing the bivy up to the top of the inside of the tarp to allow more air space, or getting out of the bivy, etc.

[Bagge Pants]

also use two sleeping pads size small, one is air filled and one is foam, the ground is sometimes the coldest part of sleeping and I'm willing to carry an extra pad in the colder months while keeping other items very lightweight

[Demeter]

Instead of down pants, you may want to check out Montbell's Thermawrap Pants. Pricey as well, but synthetic insulation, windproof, and *fairly* light at 11 oz. I wore them at -5* camping this January.

[Bagge Pants]

I suppose what's salient os that I'm looking for a solid multi-functional sleep system that weighs under 2 lbs and can get me close to 0 degrees.

here's the rough weights if you're curious:
down pants 8 oz
bivy 8 oz
mummy 22 oz
extra sleeping pad 8 oz

[The Cleaner]

I might be a minority of one, but I would be hesitant to venture out in cold weather without a wool layer of some weight/warmth. Skin tight wool bottoms are much better for hiking if it is cold and windy, like today and tomorrow are going to be along the TN-NC border. Wool is also much better anytime it is WET, cold & windy, like today and tomorrow along the TN-NC border.
I think you may be on the right track, just don't give up an insulation layer that works when you aren't in the bag.
I own an Antelope. When I need it, I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Good luck. Experiment before you get too far back in the woods. Let us know what you finally decide.

Wayne + 1 on the wool. I gave up trying to wear anything but wool baselayers in my bag and pack a proper bag for expected temps....

[The Cleaner]

I woulda thunk it would make you learn how to build a fire...:eek:

Agree with you though 90%, the other 10% nobody want's to hear. There are many things that some do not want to hear and I'd say that this includes most who make the DNF list on thru hiking...

[Weather-man]

Thanks all! Great discussion and I'm very appreciative of everyone's comments and advice.

Grudgingly agree on a bag below a certain temp. I just sold an EE 10* quilt that I tried to make work. I was ok in the teens but once I moved in my sleep (and I do move!) I lost all the warm air and had to re-heat. I did use bags as quilts in extreme cold when I was younger but circumstances were different..worked ok then, not so much anymore!

To further state the purpose or envisioned requirement that this set up would satisfy I'd say that it's not meant to UL in a deep winter environment, over time. Rather I'm looking for solutions in the extended shoulder months; early spring or late fall, where a warmer bag might be prudent for unexpected dives in the temp. I'm thinking projected temps of high 20's to low 30's that might dive to low teens or single digits unexpectedly....

My thoughts were driven by looking at my current fall/spring clothing set-up and examining if I couldn't switch things out a bit to allow a lighter bag to remain functional for those unexpected cold snaps. Currently I'm carrying "minus 33" mid weight tops and bottoms. Also carry a Driclime, puffy (down vest of nano puff) and of course dry socks for sleeping and a good sleep hat.

Weight on each of the Minus 33 items is around 9oz IIRC and the Sleep hat weighs 3 oz. I could replace the wool long john pants with light weight down pants (5.5oz), add down socks (4.5 oz) and a Down balaclava (1.5 oz) for a negligible weight saving. More importantly the down pants, socks and hat would extend the bag. The question is how significantly? Personally I sleep warm and really don't mind shivering a bit at night. Sounds weird but just doesn't bother me all that much. So my thoughts are that I could forgo the warmer bag, under the stated scenario, and save about a pound.

The next question is degree of likelihood that this system will "fail" and if so what are my options? Failure could come in the form of the down getting wet as well as the system not being able to handle the cold. As for the down getting wet I'm pretty disciplined regarding when and where I use down so I think I can manage that. Humidity might be a factor but again, this isn't designed to be a dedicated system (deep winter) but only an adjunct that replaces current wool items with greater insulation.

The cold issue might creep up but I'm also not shy about building a fire to keep warm. Been there before, shivering until the sun came up and then catching a few morning winks before moving out.

So I don't see man-killer problems though there might be some misery for a while. I can handle misery as I'll just whine myself to sleep :)

I did look at the synthetic pants but the weights are just too heavy. If I went that route I'd probably just go with a heavier bag.

What I'm looking at is:

- Borah gear down pants over stuffed to 3.5 oz (6 oz)
- Goose feet socks and over shoes (3.9 oz)
- Goose feet hat (1.3 oz)

I would still use my puffy or vest as required and mix and match all this based on conditions. Also use a Zpacks 30 degree bag and I'm going to ask Joe add the long zipper and draft tube to be able to vent and make it less quilt like, adding further flexibility.

Add a hot water bottle and I think I'll be ok. The problem now is that I'm running out of time! Should have had this epiphany a few months ago...planning a smoky trip in late April so maybe I'll catch a little colder weather.

The one issue that I'm still thinking about is hiking if it's ass biting cold. I normally won't wear long johns for hiking but my current Merino set up does allow for that. With the down set up I wouldn't have a cold weather long johns option for hiking if needed. Maybe add a set of lightweight Merinos?

[Dogwood]

Weatherman you asked to have this answered in your OP, "I suppose what's salient(MOST important) is that I'm looking for a solid multi-functional sleep system that weighs under 2 lbs and can get me close to 0 degrees." *This is indeed UL in winter!

That does not jive with what you are asking for now, "To further state the purpose or envisioned requirement that this set up would satisfy I'd say that it's not meant to UL in a deep winter environment, over time. Rather I'm looking for solutions in the extended shoulder months; early spring or late fall, where a warmer bag might be prudent for unexpected dives in the temp. I'm thinking projected temps of high 20's to low 30's that might dive to low teens or single digits unexpectedly...." Thx for the clarifying.

You changed the goals- the hiking conditions - which change other goals including your kit.

Under you current goals you're IMO going about designing your kit correctly by making accessory and technique additions for a late April GSMNP hike with the Zpacks 30* down bag. It may get wet though so throwing a merino piece in there might be advisable as well as a pack liner and WP stuff sacks(especially for the sleeping bag).

Are you going to be mostly on the AT having access to shelters?

[Drybones]

Instead of down pants, you may want to check out Montbell's Thermawrap Pants. Pricey as well, but synthetic insulation, windproof, and *fairly* light at 11 oz. I wore them at -5* camping this January.

I had a pair of down pants once, wore them once and never again. All they're good for is sitting around, I can't even wear lightweight long johns when I'm walking, even with the temps in the teens and high winds, I'd be sweating and end up freezing. If I'm only using them sitting around I may as well be sitting in my bag.

[Weather-man]

Weatherman you asked to have this answered in your OP, "I suppose what's salient(MOST important) is that I'm looking for a solid multi-functional sleep system that weighs under 2 lbs and can get me close to 0 degrees." *This is indeed UL in winter!

That does not jive with what you are asking for now, "To further state the purpose or envisioned requirement that this set up would satisfy I'd say that it's not meant to UL in a deep winter environment, over time. Rather I'm looking for solutions in the extended shoulder months; early spring or late fall, where a warmer bag might be prudent for unexpected dives in the temp. I'm thinking projected temps of high 20's to low 30's that might dive to low teens or single digits unexpectedly...." Thx for the clarifying.

You changed the goals- the hiking conditions - which change other goals including your kit.

Under you current goals you're IMO going about designing your kit correctly by making accessory and technique additions for a late April GSMNP hike with the Zpacks 30* down bag. It may get wet though so throwing a merino piece in there might be advisable as well as a pack liner and WP stuff sacks(especially for the sleeping bag).

Are you going to be mostly on the AT having access to shelters?




Yes, sorry for the confusion of the incomplete thought in the first post. Only meant 0* for short durations; e.g. unexpected cold snap.


The April hike segment is still up in the air. My youngest mentioned the Smokies but I'm trying to steer her away due to the bubble shelter situation. I'm suggesting NOBO from Standing bear for 7 - 10 days...I have some negotiating to do..

[Just Bill]

Based upon your latest post-
I'd suggest a few 3 liter platy's and some extra stove fuel.
If the odd night comes in boil up some water and snooze in your 30 degree bag.

If something insane comes along- strap on your headlamp and walk through the night and sleep the next morning when it's warmer.

Don't spend lotsa money for a few bad nights. Buy a Patagonia Merino 1 top and a merino 3 bottom to scratch your spending itch.

[Dogwood]

I had a pair of down pants once, wore them once and never again. All they're good for is sitting around, I can't even wear lightweight long johns when I'm walking, even with the temps in the teens and high winds, I'd be sweating and end up freezing. If I'm only using them sitting around I may as well be sitting in my bag.

I'm going to have to agree with Drybones take on this too especially so given the parameters of a late April GSMNP or North of that on the AT hike. It's my best guess understanding common weather patterns including evening lows and fluctuating day time highs you're going to get little use out of synthetic or down pants. You'd most likely get more use out of thinner(just in case of a deep cold snap) thermal bottoms with less wt, bulk, and less cost. You, and I, are overthinking your probable hiking situation. I think I get where you are coming from though - both figuratively and literally - I also used to live in Tampa and left to do hikes in New England and the mid Atlantic states in April with an UL system. You'll be ok though especially inside a shelter(tent) and AT lean-to.

[Midge]

Weatherman,
I recently tested out my WM Summerlite thinking similar thoughts. I have an Alpinlite for colder weather but wanted to see if I could build a more flexible gear loadout. The Alpinlite is 17 oz. rated to 20F vs the Summerlite rated to 32F and only weighs 8 oz. My goals were to 1) check the true capability of the new gear and then 2) see how far I could push the lesser bag in a safe manner.Here are my observations:
Night 1- With only silk-weight base layer a beanie and a pair of light wool socks, I slept very comfortably in the Summerlite with no issues down to 25F. I consider myself a pretty warm sleeper, but I would say the WM rating was spot on.
Night 2- Started at 25F and slowly dropped to 9F at dawn. I added a Montbell U.L. down pants (A 7.7 oz penalty) and a Mountain Hardware Thermostatic jacket (9.2 oz). At about 15F, it was comfortable but a little on the cool side. I put a pair of glove liners on, pulled up the drawstring tighter and went back to sleep. At 0600 it was 9F and hands and feet were getting cold. It was clear that was about the limit. Now, I would have easily survived the night, but if I had to start the night at that temperature I would have been putting everything in my bag on. I keep my sleeping gear and clothes as off limits during the day as a safety net as previously discussed.
Bottom Line:
At an 8 oz penalty I was able to take my warm weather bag down to pretty cold temperatures with about a 15F gain with the added layer. Since I would have the layer for winter camp comfort anyway, the winter gear load out actually turns into a net savings of about 9 oz over the warmer bag. However, there is the added risk of losing the layer if used around camp in moist conditions.

[Berserker]

I've been experimenting with a similar setup to what you are talking about the last couple of years. I was using my WM Caribou bag down into the 20s (it's rated at 35) with a Mont-Bell down coat or Patagonia Micropuff pullover (synthetic), and some Backpacking Light Cocoon (synthetic) pants. The system works fairly well from my experience, and it's nice to be able to jump right out of the bag and be in your warm clothes. The only downside I've found is that any sweating starts stinking up the clothing. For the synthetic stuff it's not as big of a deal because washing that stuff perodically isn't going to damage it over time, whereas I'm not overly excited to wash the down stuff.