View Full Version : PA fire regs
Game Warden
03-18-2014, 21:06
Just an update: on PA Game Commission lands fires may be built only by licensed hunters and anglers, and AT through hikers. The law was changed last month.
Thanks for the info. By the time I get to PA I am not much interested in camp fires.
fiddlehead
03-19-2014, 05:36
Grew up hiking the AT as a boyscout and learning how to build fires in the rain.
So, in a way, I'm disappointed in this new law.
But, In a way, it's good that they at least included through hikers.
Now, what's THEIR definition of a thru-hiker?
Someone hiking through PA?
The whole trail?
Through a section of state game lands?
What if they are boy scouts? (and special permission exceptions? I wonder?)
peakbagger
03-19-2014, 06:27
Its good that they passed the regs as maybe it will impact the local yahoos at various abused campsites but as the prior poster mentioned it will be hard to enforce and probably low priority for enforcement.
Doesn't a "thru hiker" get that label in PA by thru walking the section of game lands, (vs out and back into the game lands) I don't think the game commission is making a distinction between thru, section and even weekend hikers in the rules.
Rain Man
03-19-2014, 11:22
I hope it's not abused, so that it has to be changed back to no fires.
Rain Man
.
4eyedbuzzard
03-19-2014, 13:27
Grew up hiking the AT as a boyscout and learning how to build fires in the rain.
So, in a way, I'm disappointed in this new law.
But, In a way, it's good that they at least included through hikers.
Now, what's THEIR definition of a thru-hiker?
Someone hiking through PA?
The whole trail?
Through a section of state game lands?
What if they are boy scouts? (and special permission exceptions? I wonder?)
Here's the text of the proposed reg that was apparently adopted - it isn't yet in the actual online code yet. http://www.pabulletin.com/secure/data/vol43/43-51/2367.html
But I agree with fiddlehead. How do you differentiate between a thru-hiker vs section hiker? There is no legal definition, no license to engage in the activity required (as with hunters/fishermen), and common definitions vary widely, confusing "reasonable man" arguments. For example, GSMNP considers an AT thru-hiker as one beginning and ending 50 miles from the park border, etc. And why would one hiker have inherently more rights to build a campfire than any other hiker - or honestly, any other citizen hiking/camping? I understand the intent of the reg., but I have my doubts as to exactly how legal or enforceable it is.
Have no fear. Here is the official definition of a through hiker. They are not biased at all against section, weekend or even day hikers.
§ 135.42. Appalachian Trail.
(a) Scope. This section regulates through hikers who camp overnight on State Game Lands within the corridor of the trail.
(b) Definitions. The following words and terms, when used in this section, have the following meanings, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise:
(1) Public access area—An area where the public enters or exits the trail on game lands.
(2) Spring—A source of water issuing from the ground.
(3) Stream—A body of running water flowing on the earth.
(4) Through hikers—Persons walking the trail from a beginning area to an exit area on the trail which is not the place of beginning.
(5) Trail—The Appalachian Trail as authorized by the Pennsylvania Appalachian Trail Act (64 P. S. § § 801—805).
(c) Overnight camping. Overnight camping along the trail shall be lawful only in accordance with the act and this part.
(d) Unlawful acts. It is unlawful to camp:
(1) Overnight at a distance more than 200 feet from the designated trail.
(2) More than one night at the same location.
(3) Within 500 feet of a spring, stream or public access area.
88BlueGT
03-19-2014, 14:14
Sooooooooo basically if you hike from one trail head to another you can consider yourself a thru-hiker....?
4eyedbuzzard
03-19-2014, 14:18
TY for the post w/ PA statute definitions Malto! My only concern in the wording is it would seem that those on a loop hike, even a long one of several days/nights, might not meet the legal definition in the strictest terms. I doubt this is the intent, but it does raise the question.
TY for the post w/ PA statute definitions Malto! My only concern in the wording is it would seem that those on a loop hike, even a long one of several days/nights, might not meet the legal definition in the strictest terms. I doubt this is the intent, but it does raise the question.
"Through hikers—Persons walking the trail from a beginning area to an exit area on the trail which is not the place of beginning."
If you're doing a loop trail then no fires for you!
However the law applies to other trails on state land in PA, not just the AT.
I was gonna say, was curious how a LE official would decide whether someone was a thru hiker. (S)he'd need to have a pretty brave nose.
Game Warden
03-19-2014, 16:36
"through hiker" in PA law does not have the same meaning as it does in the trail community. A section hiker can be a through hiker.
If you start at Point A and hike eventually to Point B, you are a through hiker. If you start at Point A and eventually return to Point A, you are not a through hiker. Overnight loop hikes are prohibited on state game lands.
Also, I key in on certain details. Carrying a 12-pack of beer and lawn chairs? Probably not a through hiker.
§ 135.42. Appalachian Trail.
(a) Scope. This section regulates through hikers who camp overnight on State Game Lands within the corridor of the trail.
(b) Definitions. The following words and terms, when used in this section, have the following meanings, unless the context clearly indicates otherwise:
(1) Public access area—An area where the public enters or exits the trail on game lands.
(2) Spring—A source of water issuing from the ground.
(3) Stream—A body of running water flowing on the earth.
(4) Through hikers—Persons walking the trail from a beginning area to an exit area on the trail which is not the place of beginning.
(5) Trail—The Appalachian Trail as authorized by the Pennsylvania Appalachian Trail Act (64 P. S. § § 801—805).
(c) Overnight camping. Overnight camping along the trail shall be lawful only in accordance with the act and this part.
(d) Unlawful acts. It is unlawful to camp:
(1) Overnight at a distance more than 200 feet from the designated trail.
(2) More than one night at the same location.
(3) Within 500 feet of a spring, stream or public access area.
Is it legal to camp at the Rausch Gap shelter? It is more than 200' from the designated trail and there is a spring flowing through the shelter area. :-?
Game Warden
03-19-2014, 19:13
yes. the site told me the message needs to be at least 10 characters, so...
Game Warden
03-19-2014, 19:14
yes it is legal to camp at a shelter on the trail
(d) Unlawful acts. It is unlawful to camp:
(1) Overnight at a distance more than 200 feet from the designated trail.
Is it legal to camp at the Rausch Gap shelter? It is more than 200' from the designated trail and there is a spring flowing through the shelter area. :-?
Looks like PA has adopted the reverse NY rules (like the the Adirondacks/Catskills) where you have to be at LEAST 150' from the trail, UNLESS there is a designated site/shelter closer then you can use that.
Is it legal to camp at the Rausch Gap shelter? It is more than 200' from the designated trail and there is a spring flowing through the shelter area. :-?
Until shelterbuilder shows up with more specific details, it is my understanding that camping around the RG shelter is NOT legal. I wonder if this new rule would make a fire there illegal.
Wise Old Owl
03-19-2014, 21:40
Interesting thread.. I have no problem with this.. Newbies will be fined. Lets think about this - there are lots of weekenders that have zero knowledge of fire... Back of car campers included. Too many are uneducated and poor in some knowledge and have already burned down thousands of acres. I think the adjustment in rules are fair.
Putting out just 20 acres is ton's of firefighting - equipment - and loss of firefighter's and people and equipment is UN-acceptable.
4eyedbuzzard
03-20-2014, 02:25
"through hiker" in PA law does not have the same meaning as it does in the trail community. A section hiker can be a through hiker.
If you start at Point A and hike eventually to Point B, you are a through hiker. If you start at Point A and eventually return to Point A, you are not a through hiker. Overnight loop hikes are prohibited on state game lands.
Also, I key in on certain details. Carrying a 12-pack of beer and lawn chairs? Probably not a through hiker.
"Through hikers—Persons walking the trail from a beginning area to an exit area on the trail which is not the place of beginning."
If you're doing a loop trail then no fires for you!
However the law applies to other trails on state land in PA, not just the AT.
So, if I hike from point A to point B, and camp overnight and make a small fire, I am in compliance with the regulations. What happens if upon reaching point B, I out of the blue decide to hike back to point A rather than say, hitchhike to my car? What if I don't even have a car? Am I even allowed to hike? Must I wait a prescribed period of time to hike in the other direction? Is my hike from point B to point A a new instance of a through hike (now from B to A), or is the whole thing now a loop hike, or yo-yo? Are yo-yo's through hikes? If I make a fire on this hike am I now a "loop hiker" or some other type of hiker? Am I now in violation of the regulation for doing exactly what I had previously done legally?
In all seriousness, IMO the regulation is poorly written and is extremely vague (in the legal sense) which tends to give rise to both enforcement abuse and also "void for vagueness" defense under due process clause. http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Void+for+Vagueness+Doctrine
swales142
03-20-2014, 04:26
Is the shelter on state game lands or just state land because that is two different things.
Do what you wanna do...
swales142
03-20-2014, 04:29
Is it legal to camp at the Rausch Gap shelter? :-?
I don't believe the shelter is on staye game land. So i don't believe the same rules apply
Do what you wanna do...
I was half kidding about Rausch Gap. I posted it more to show the inconsistencies with the statutes. Given they just rebuilt the shelter and the statute I posted is NOT new, i would expect there is no issue.
as far as why the regulation specify to stay WITHIN a certain distance. I suspect that is due to hunting safety more than anything else.
Sailing_Faith
03-20-2014, 08:48
What must I do to add "licensed fire starter" to my resume?
i have many cool (mostly useless) but would really like to add that one. :)
Game Warden
03-20-2014, 17:27
4eyedbuzzard, the only thing poorly written is your dizzying logic. Doesn't matter whether you arrive by car, helicopter, horse, hot-air balloon, etc. In at Point A and out at Point B, no problem. Anything else, you can have a day in court and we'll let a judge decide; that's what they get paid for.
A well-known legal principle states that laws should be applied based on common sense and daily life, not arcane, esoteric interpretations or questions addressing infinite complex hypothetical situations.
I use the common-sense standard. As should everyone, including hikers.
Game Warden
03-20-2014, 19:59
Swales, RG shelter is on State Game Lands, paid for by hunting license dollars.
Game warden,
do you handle the section of the bike trail near Yellow springs? I may have met you opening day of bear season while trail running on the Stoney Valley rail trail last fall.
Game Warden
03-21-2014, 15:26
No, wasn't me. Probably one of my colleagues. Always plenty of WCOs there on opening of bear season; they come up from the non-bear-hunting counties to help.
Berserker
03-27-2014, 11:24
Not to add confusion to this thread, but this sign was on some of the shelters (James Fry, Darlington) in Southern PA when I went through there last weekend:
26544
Seems like some really bizzare dates there...I don't get the basis for those.
shelterbuilder
03-27-2014, 19:49
Those are the (general) dates of the Spring and Fall wildfire seasons, as recognized by the Bureau of Forestry.
As for the Rausch Gap Shelter, use the shelter - we went to great lengths to do the reconstruction! The shelter itself is a legal site, but this entire area has seen more than its share of abuse (causing a lot of extra work for folks like Game Warden). When you start trying to "split hairs" about things like "how far from the footpath is too far" or "how close to the stream is too close", you do nothing but invite trouble. The regs are there to protect habitat, and THAT benefits us all. And here's a thought: go buy a hunting or fishing license...even if you don't use it.
shelterbuilder
03-27-2014, 20:12
I'm having a lot of trouble posting (I think because of a software glitch), so I'll answer a couple of things in a second post. Notice the difference between "thru-hiker" and "through hiker": one refers to a 2,000 miler, and the other refers to someone who hikes from point "A" to point "B"...2 different points. This helps to minimize the presence of the "weekend warrior" who likes to hike with coolers, 6-packs, and lawn chairs! All of the shelters along the trail ON STATE GAME LANDS are shelters whose presence has been approved by PGC. The intent of the regs is to minimize human impact ON THE HABITAT by confining it to a narrow area on either side of the footpath, AND to exclude it from waterways (which can carry pollution far downstream from the original point of pollution). Finally, to Game Warden: as you can see, we are an argumentative bunch who sometimes take our arguments to illogical ends. Welcome to the fray!!! And thanks.
Tuckahoe
03-27-2014, 20:41
Not to add confusion to this thread, but this sign was on some of the shelters (James Fry, Darlington) in Southern PA when I went through there last weekend:
26544
Seems like some really bizzare dates there...I don't get the basis for those.
Probably for the same reasons that Virginia uses similar dates, with a spring burn ban of February 15 to April 30 and a fall burn ban of October 15 to November 30.
http://www.dof.virginia.gov/info/faqs-burning.htm
What is the 4 p.m. Law?
The 4 p.m. Law is a ban (or restriction) on open air burning before 4 o'clock in the afternoon if your fire is within 300 feet of the woods or dry grass which can carry the fire to the woods. You are allowed to burn between 4 p.m and midnight as long as you take proper care and precaution and attend your fire at all times.
When is the 4 p.m. Law in effect?
The law goes into effect on February 15th each year and runs through April 30th.
Why is there a 4 p.m. Law?
The 4 p.m. Law was adopted during the 1940's to reduce the number of wildfires which occurred each spring. During this time of the year, Virginia traditionally has an increased number of fires. During the winter months, winds are usually elevated, the relative humidity is lower and the fuels on the forest floor are extremely dry, having "cured" without having the tree leaves to shade them.
Why 4 o'clock?
After 4 p.m., winds usually calm down and the relative humidity levels are on the increase, both of which reduce the potential for a debris fire or any outdoor open air fire to escape your control.
Game Warden
03-27-2014, 21:05
An unfortunate truth of the entire AT is the wide variety of landowners who host the trail. Locally, the Trail passes through PA state forest, PA state game lands, a PA Fish & Boat Commission radio tower site, a Pennsylvania Power & Light cable cut, a PA state park, National Park Service lands, and Harrisburg City Water Authority lands. All of these properties look like "the woods" to the hiker, but each is managed for different purposes, with different goals.