When will synthetics be better than down?

[RedBeerd]

While I love my new EE Prodigy, stuffing it into my backpack reminded me of the days when my down bag would be stuffed into my pack and virtually disappear. So that got me thinking, when will synthetic be better than down? I'm talking warmer for weight and more compressible as well as maintaining the advantages of insulating better when damp. There are quite a few synthetic competitors out there..do they need to step their game up or is making a synthetic equivalent or better than down just really difficult? I mean we live in a world with some pretty mind blowing technology. Yes, a superior synthetic probably isn't on Elon Musk's to-do list..but come on!

[OutdoorsMan]

I like your question. I have thought the same thing myself. We are currently improving upon nature's product by applying a solution that improves down's ability to repel moisture.

[Feral Bill]

People have been searching for the perfect down substitute for decades. So far each has had problems of bulk and/or durability. Down, meanwhile, has also improved, especially in water resistance. When one synthetic, Lite Loft was introduced for sleeping bags I bought it. It slowly lost loft until I returned it to REI.

[HooKooDooKu]

I've so far been impressed with what Mountain Hardware has done with their Ultralamina series:
32º synthetic bag @ 2lbs and stuffs into a 6"x10",
15º synthetic bag @ 3lbs and stuffs into a 7"x13".

But compare that to some of their own Down bags:
32º down bag @ 1lb and stuffs into a 5"x8" (Speed 32 Down).

As you can see, when you consider the shell is something of a fixed weight, we've got a long way to go before synthetic catches up to down.

If someone had the money to sink into it, I think we have the technology to eventually match down for its abilities. But I just don't see enough need for synthetic sleeping bag insulation that is going to cause the required investment to be made in my lifetime.

[RedBeerd]

I've so far been impressed with what Mountain Hardware has done with their Ultralamina series:
32º synthetic bag @ 2lbs and stuffs into a 6"x10",
15º synthetic bag @ 3lbs and stuffs into a 7"x13".

But compare that to some of their own Down bags:
32º down bag @ 1lb and stuffs into a 5"x8" (Speed 32 Down).

As you can see, when you consider the shell is something of a fixed weight, we've got a long way to go before synthetic catches up to down.

If someone had the money to sink into it, I think we have the technology to eventually match down for its abilities. But I just don't see enough need for synthetic sleeping bag insulation that is going to cause the required investment to be made in my lifetime.

I like that. Seems true. I know I personally wouldn't have gone with synthetic but liked the cost of them and will designate it as my trail work bag which will see rougher use I don't want to put on my down bag. Synthetic just isn't as "in" with the majority. I wonder if the demand was crazy high that we'd see some innovation.

So I suppose it would just make more sense to increase down's water repellent capabilities than to make a superior synthetic fill. The only thing not addressed is the cost. A synthetic equal to down would definitely be a lot cheaper. Good for us, probably not as beneficial to the manufacturers?

[Feral Bill]

I like that. Seems true. I know I personally wouldn't have gone with synthetic but liked the cost of them and will designate it as my trail work bag which will see rougher use I don't want to put on my down bag. Synthetic just isn't as "in" with the majority. I wonder if the demand was crazy high that we'd see some innovation.

So I suppose it would just make more sense to increase down's water repellent capabilities than to make a superior synthetic fill. The only thing not addressed is the cost. A synthetic equal to down would definitely be a lot cheaper. Good for us, probably not as beneficial to the manufacturers? For a person on a budget, synthetics are a reasonable trade off. Better to carry a bigger load then to not get out.

[Tuckahoe]

My 15º and 50º bags and my top and bottom quilts are each synthetic.

When I was shopping for my 50º bag I found that the equivalent 800+ fill bags would save an average of 3-4 ounces, while the 600 and 650 fill power bags were actually an average of 8 oz heavier. The 600 fill bags were generally in the $120 to $140 range and the 800+ fill bags were in the $250 to $300 range. On the other hand the synthetic bag regularly retailed for $85 and I was able to get it on clearance for $60. I'll admit I'm cheap, and 4 ounces wasn't worth another $190.

My synthetic 30º 27 oz Climashield top quilt was on sale for $153; while the 30º 700 duck down 23.25 oz top quilt was $240. Again that 4 ounce savings wasn't worth the $87 difference.

It's not that I think synthetic is better than down, but for myself when there is a fairly minor difference in the weight and a significant difference in cost, it is a lot easier to pick the bag based on cost.

[Mags]

Ah, but the longevity of down is excellent. I doubt a synthetic bag would hold for X miles vs my Feathered Friends bag. Still usable if not as lofty (I now use a down quilt).

Sometimes a little more money up front is less money in the long run.

Of course, to test this theory, I should hike another X miles with a synthetic bag. Maybe I should put up a Kickstarter campaign, have all you nice people sponsor me so I can re-do all those hikes again...this time with a synthetic bag. Anyone game??? :D

[BradMT]

A question asked since the early 1970's... haven't seen it yet.

[Feral Bill]

Ah, but the longevity of down is excellent. I doubt a synthetic bag would hold for X miles vs my Feathered Friends bag. Still usable if not as lofty (I now use a down quilt).

Sometimes a little more money up front is less money in the long run.

Of course, to test this theory, I should hike another X miles with a synthetic bag. Maybe I should put up a Kickstarter campaign, have all you nice people sponsor me so I can re-do all those hikes again...this time with a synthetic bag. Anyone game??? :D I imagine that quite a few on the trail now are pretty gamey.

[mudsocks]

do they need to step their game up or is making a synthetic equivalent or better than down just really difficult? I mean we live in a world with some pretty mind blowing technology.


If someone had the money to sink into it, I think we have the technology to eventually match down for its abilities.

Nature has had millions of years to perfect down. If a cost effective true synthetic alternative was easy few of us would be using down now.

[RodentWhisperer]

When will synthetic be better than down?

Never... :D

[Mags]

I imagine that quite a few on the trail now are pretty gamey.

GA-ME for sure...

MEGAey in a few more months.

[Sarcasm the elf]

Ah, but the longevity of down is excellent. I doubt a synthetic bag would hold for X miles vs my Feathered Friends bag. Still usable if not as lofty (I now use a down quilt).

On an interesting note, I've heard anecdotally that the various types of dry-down that recently hit the market have a substantially reduced lifespan compared to regular down.

[Mags]

On an interesting note, I've heard anecdotally that the various types of dry-down that recently hit the market have a substantially reduced lifespan compared to regular down.

Interesting.Since they are so new, wonder how people have that data?

Be curious to see in 5 yrs or so how the dry down garments and bags hold up.

[rafe]

I have a down bag that's pushing 42 years old now. Not a thru-hiker's bag, it's got 2.5 lbs. of fill in it. The only thing wrong with it is that one of the (internal) baffles seems to have given way, so that a six or eight inch section of the bag is missing its proper share of down. I wonder if that can be fixed?

That bag kept me warm a couple of times in subzero temps in the Whites, when it was a mere 18 years old. And I was a mere 37.

[leaftye]

When? Probably never. Continuous filament synthetic insulation fibers can't match the 3D structure of down feathers, although there's been some recent attempts and synthetic clusters. Down feathers can retain their originally loft for decades when cared for properly, even when used a lot. I wish my carpeting could do the same. The structure of a down feather could probably be improved, and maybe it will be if we get better at genetic modification and growing tissue in labs.

Others have listed some applications where it's better though. I'd also like the baffle closest to my mouth to be synthetic. Nemo uses synthetic insulation in the throat of their -40 down sleeping bag. I also think synthetic insulation could be superior if it was bonded to both sides of an inflatable baffle so that full loft is always possible.

[Drybones]

Man will never better a goose or duck at making insulation...just wont happen...ever.

[HooKooDooKu]

Man will never better a goose or duck at making insulation...just wont happen...ever.
I think you're right... but I think it's because of economics rather than technology.

With technology, I can see the possibility of using nano-technology and 3-D printing concepts to build insulation that is structured very much like down. We could possibly even better down as we wouldn't be limited to biological building blocks. We could use things like carcon nanotubes and bucky-balls as the building blocks for simulating down insulation. But doing so would come at a high cost... one where there just isn't enough of a market to make the investment cost worth it.

I think we'll see bigger advancement in technologies like home insulation well before we'll see similar gains in sleeping bag technology.

[Franco]

Just my take on some of the comments 1) If someone had the money to sink into it...

I am pretty sure that there is a lot of money put into researching this, getting there is another matter.
One relatively new development is Thermoball by Primaloft, said to equal 600 fill power goose down.
Keep in mind that the money is in clothing (jackets mostly in this case) not sleeping bags.


2) A synthetic equal to down would definitely be a lot cheaper. Good for us, probably not as beneficial to the manufacturers?
After the initial R&D if mass produced (as it would) it probably would be cheaper.
Handling down for a start is messy and expensive and of course it does not originate in a factory.
However IF someone came up with something similar to down in weight/loft they could charge whatever the market can take, it would not necessarely need to be a lot less than down. So that could also work for the manufacturer .
Down is generic so anyone can use it, a proprietry synthetic fill would be the same as selling Gore Tex or eVent.

3) When I was shopping for my 50º bag I found that the equivalent 800+ fill bags would save an average of 3-4 ounces, while the 600 and 650 fill power bags were actually an average of 8 oz heavier


If you compare ratings from the same manufacturer you will find that the difference is greater than that and no , so far, there is no synthetic lighter than 600-650 down.
Generally speaking the lesser the cost the higher the claims.
By that what I mean is that simply because the label says "0 degree bag " it does not mean that it is...

[shakey_snake]

Argon gas vests and sleeping pads already exist.

[Franco]

Argon stuff could be a solution for some but as usual there are downsides with that too.Down compresses very well and can be housed inside a very light shell. You can't do that with Argon clothing.
You can off course deflate them for storage and inflated again but then you have to carry extra gas canisters adding weight and cost.
The other point is that ,for one, I don't like wearing rigid type clothing and once you inflate those vests they will feel rather stiff.

[QiWiz]

People have been searching for the perfect down substitute for decades. So far each has had problems of bulk and/or durability. Down, meanwhile, has also improved, especially in water resistance. When one synthetic, Lite Loft was introduced for sleeping bags I bought it. It slowly lost loft until I returned it to REI.

I have also found that any synthetic insulation I have tried out (other than fleece) gradually loses loft until it's no longer useful. Meanwhile my well-cared-for down is still going strong. Result: I only use synthetics now when I am heading into multiday, guaranteed wet, rainy all the time conditions. Even then, I wonder if I would not be better off with my down. I now have a water-resistant down garment that has not yet been fully vetted but seems very good so far.
It's hard to beat years of evolution that mother nature has had the advantage of in insulating her creatures.

[July]

I have also found that any synthetic insulation I have tried out (other than fleece) gradually loses loft until it's no longer useful. Meanwhile my well-cared-for down is still going strong. Result: I only use synthetics now when I am heading into multiday, guaranteed wet, rainy all the time conditions. Even then, I wonder if I would not be better off with my down. I now have a water-resistant down garment that has not yet been fully vetted but seems very good so far.
It's hard to beat years of evolution that mother nature has had the advantage of in insulating her creatures.
Well said.

[Pedaling Fool]

It's hard to beat years of evolution that mother nature has had the advantage of in insulating her creatures.Yeah, it maybe difficult, but she's had millions of years; we'll eventually beat her and in far less time than it took her.

[rafe]

I'm not so sure about the beating nature business. We can fly higher, faster than any birds ever flew... but we can't match birds for their efficiency in flight.

I'm often reminded that the very best of humankind's inventions begin to approach what nature has already achieved. Not that everything in nature is flawless -- far from it.