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TSWisla
04-29-2014, 11:56
... and I am very disappointed for several reasons. The biggest is because it seems to me that the idea of "leave no trace" is clearly dead. There was trash everywhere, I was shocked. Wrappers, broken implements, half eaten food and half burned garbage were everywhere I looked. Second, I guess that the trail now has salespeople as I was given "free samples" and offered a sales pitch for someone's new business. Come on! The AT is where I want to go to avoid that rubbish, but I guess that that kind of nonsense is not even avoidable there. Have I gone crazy?

saltysack
04-29-2014, 12:01
Where were u?


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rafe
04-29-2014, 12:13
Yeah seriously -- what part of the trail was this?

Generally when one sees garbage, it's at trailheads or within a mile of the road. Or just after passage of some poorly-supervised group outing.

TSWisla
04-29-2014, 12:15
Unicoi to Rock Gap

johnnybgood
04-29-2014, 12:16
Sadly, it's presumptuous to expect the trail to be any different.

TSWisla
04-29-2014, 12:21
It is very sad to see the destruction of such a beautiful natural resource by a bunch of losers...

rafe
04-29-2014, 12:25
Sadly, it's presumptuous to expect the trail to be any different.

I'd be seriously pi$$ed if I saw that kind of stuff in the Whites or in Maine. Can't speak for the AT in the deep south, haven't been there since George H.W. Bush was president.

Slo-go'en
04-29-2014, 12:32
That always seems to be a problem early in the season down south as the early hoards of thru-hikers and spring breakers pass through. For some reason many of them seem to think a shelter is an appropriate place to leave trash. After all, the garbage truck comes by every Thursday, doesn't it?

saltysack
04-29-2014, 12:51
I always try to pick up as I pass by...if nothing else concentrate it in one spot at a shelter
for easier removal by trail crews....I can't pass by litter in a natural area without picking it up or it bugs me...my first hike on the AT years back from springer to woody I slid down a steep ravine to pick up an empty gallon jug of water...prob not smartest thing I've done but I can't handle the disrespect for nature some people have....


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HikerMom58
04-29-2014, 12:52
I'd be seriously pi$$ed if I saw that kind of stuff in the Whites or in Maine. Can't speak for the AT in the deep south, haven't been there since George H.W. Bush was president.

Johnny is correct. Trash is every where on the trail. Last May when I hiked in PA, I heard someone say, at the shelter, that LNT is a JOKE on the trail, as he tossed some trash into the fire pit.

I didn't say a word to him. I don't think I can change a person's attitude with a word or two. :eek: Plus, he didn't give off the vibes that he would be teachable or that it would be wise to disagree with him.. jus sayin.

MDSection12
04-29-2014, 12:53
I always try to pick up as I pass by...if nothing else concentrate it in one spot at a shelter
for easier removal by trail crews....I can't pass by litter in a natural area without picking it up or it bugs me...my first hike on the AT years back from springer to woody I slid down a steep ravine to pick up an empty gallon jug of water...prob not smartest thing I've done but I can't handle the disrespect for nature some people have....


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Yup. I've realized that if I don't pick it up it will bother me later.

rafe
04-29-2014, 13:16
Not defending litterers or littering by any means -- but the AT could do with more trash barrels at road crossings. This wouldn't change the littering situation at all, but might at least facilitate cleanup of litter by those who care enough to do so. Example... a bunch of us ordered pizza at RPH Shelter. This probably happens quite often at that particular shelter. For some odd reason there's no trash barrel there, even though it's in the middle of a residential neighborhood. I ended up carrying the empty pizza carton with me for several miles the following morning, and depositing it (at last) in some private family's trash barrel later that day. If it hadn't been garbage-collection day, I'm not sure how long I'd have had to carry that carton.

QHShowoman
04-29-2014, 13:27
Not defending litterers or littering by any means -- but the AT could do with more trash barrels at road crossings. This wouldn't change the littering situation at all, but might at least facilitate cleanup of litter by those who care enough to do so. Example... a bunch of us ordered pizza at RPH Shelter. This probably happens quite often at that particular shelter. For some odd reason there's no trash barrel there, even though it's in the middle of a residential neighborhood. I ended up carrying the empty pizza carton with me for several miles the following morning, and depositing it (at last) in some private family's trash barrel later that day. If it hadn't been garbage-collection day, I'm not sure how long I'd have had to carry that carton.

But then whose responsibility is it to empty the trash barrels? Or pay for them to be emptied? And at road crossings, they're just going to become a place for non-hikers to dump their crap that they don't want to pay the refuse service to take.

rafe
04-29-2014, 13:47
But then whose responsibility is it to empty the trash barrels? Or pay for them to be emptied? And at road crossings, they're just going to become a place for non-hikers to dump their crap that they don't want to pay the refuse service to take.

Do you have a better proposal? From the point of view of a trail maintainer, it's probably a wash -- pick up random garbage at shelters or along the trail, or pick up a big pile at the trailhead. I don't have a solution for littering. Send litterbugs to re-education camps?

HikerMom58
04-29-2014, 13:59
Do you have a better proposal? From the point of view of a trail maintainer, it's probably a wash -- pick up random garbage at shelters or along the trail, or pick up a big pile at the trailhead. I don't have a solution for littering. Send litterbugs to re-education camps?

I don't have a solution for littering or litterbugs either. The dude I ran into was certainly aware of what was expected of him but he chose to ignore & laughed about it.

I think the best thing we can do is pick up after others that don't care. I also believe in education and practicing LNT ourselves.

That's all we can do.

saltysack
04-29-2014, 14:16
I'd have no problem telling how I felt about him throwing his crap on the ground....I don't freak about a snickers wrapper in the burning fire but blatant disrespect is worthy of an ass beating!


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QHShowoman
04-29-2014, 14:28
Do you have a better proposal? From the point of view of a trail maintainer, it's probably a wash -- pick up random garbage at shelters or along the trail, or pick up a big pile at the trailhead. I don't have a solution for littering. Send litterbugs to re-education camps?

According to your post, you did exactly the right thing...you packed your trash out and disposed of it properly, but there is something interesting about the mindset that says we can hike somewhere, order a pizza along the way, and yet, feel inconvenienced that we have to carry the empty pizza box out with us because there's no conveniently placed trash can to dump it in -- because this is the same mindset that those who litter have, only they don't have the same level of conscientiousness that you did in that moment to do the responsible thing.

With that said, I do think the only proposal that gets to the root of the issue is education and re-education. And that means (within reason), speaking up when you see folks violating basic LNT principals (assuming it's safe to do so) and teaching newer hikers the basics. Same goes for littering off trail. The same people that trash the woods are the same people that trash our cities and highways. It's not about access to trash cans, it's about changing the mindset of people who believe that they are entitled to do whatever they please. And yeah, that's a tall order, and we're not going to "fix" everyone at once (or ever), but it's pretty easy to try to lead by example.

And here's why I don't think the trash can proposal will help very much: The same litterbugs that leave their trash at shelters aren't going to "inconvenience" themselves and walk 10 yards to the nearest trash can. I can't tell you how many times I've been camping at established campgrounds, where a dumpster is provided at the entrance for trash, and people leave their campsites a mess.

Also, adding trash cans to convenient locations along the trail puts the onus on volunteers or the ATC to dispose of the trash. And once trash cans are accessible, people who would've otherwise packed their trash out (think of your own pizza box example, above), will just use these convenient trash cans instead, which will result in a greater amount of trash for SOMEONE to dispose of, than the crap dumped along the trail.

HikerMom58
04-29-2014, 14:34
I'd have no problem telling how I felt about him throwing his crap on the ground....I don't freak about a snickers wrapper in the burning fire but blatant disrespect is worthy of an ass beating!


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Believe me, saltysack, if you were there at the shelter I'm betting any attempted ass beating of this dude would have started something with him. I'm not joking.

Know when to walk away, know when to run....

rafe
04-29-2014, 14:47
QHS: Funny thing about the RPH pizza was, I didn't think of the garbage issue 'till the next morning... That was the first and last time I ever ordered a pizza from an AT shelter. Maybe in the back of my mind I assumed the shelter had a trash can. Not sure if you've been there but RPH is a very weird place, both in its construction and in its location. I had just arrived and a hiker I knew was already on his cell phone to the pizza place. He called out, "Hey Rafe, want a pizza?" and after getting over my initial confusion, of course I said "Sure!".

As for the trash barrels, I hadn't considered who would empty them, or that folks might "freeload" their trash disposal there. Of course, there occasionally are trash barrels on the AT, for example at state parks, major trailheads, etc., and I'm almost always happy to use them. I suppose the barrels might make sense if they're in a location that's easily maintainable and not likely to be misused by freeloaders.

As for the trash I generate from Snickers bar wrappers and Ramen noodle packages -- no question, that gets carried out. But the sum-total of that trash is never more than a couple ounces and fits in a small Ziploc.

QHShowoman
04-29-2014, 14:53
As for the trash barrels, I hadn't considered who would empty them, or that folks might "freeload" their trash disposal there. Of course, there occasionally are trash barrels on the AT, for example at state parks, major trailheads, etc., and I'm almost always happy to use them. I suppose the barrels might make sense if they're in a location that's easily maintainable and not likely to be misused by freeloaders.


I've never been to the shelter you mentioned, but there's one not too far from me in MD that's near a road-crossing that you can supposedly have a pizza delivered to. Frankly, I'd be more open to longer backpacking trips if I could just have my food delivered along the way. :-)

But yes, I think trash barrels totally make sense in areas where the infrastructure is already in place to pick up the trash, like in parks, etc.

Damn Yankee
04-29-2014, 14:58
I am reminded of the old litter commercial where the Indian is standing on a pile of trash and a tear runs down his cheek. I hate litter. I have traveled to many countries and never found a single piece of trash. This is one of the many reasons other people don't like Americans. A few spoil it for everyone.

MDSection12
04-29-2014, 15:04
The snickers bar was delicious, but the second I removed it from its wrapper the wrapper became 'icky.' How dare you expect me to carry that disgusting refuse. :p

I've often wished for a trash can at a road crossing, but then I think of the issues mentioned above. If nothing else, consider it a lesson on all the waste we create in just a few days.

saltysack
04-29-2014, 15:06
Just last weekend at the beach with my kids a family went to pack up and leave. They left a bunch of there crap behind....as


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MDSection12
04-29-2014, 15:07
I am reminded of the old litter commercial where the Indian is standing on a pile of trash and a tear runs down his cheek. I hate litter. I have traveled to many countries and never found a single piece of trash. This is one of the many reasons other people don't like Americans. A few spoil it for everyone.
Are you joking? I'm not well traveled, but from what I hear littering is considered normal in many countries. Several independent sources have told me that Egypt in particular is literally flowing with garbage in the cities. Don't make this an America bashing thing...

saltysack
04-29-2014, 15:08
Oops..as they began to walk off I yelled to him "you forgot something " he gave me the deer in the head lights look before picking it up...dumb ass!!! I have no tolerance of a person of this caliber....great example he is setting for his kids...


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canoe
04-29-2014, 15:38
... and I am very disappointed for several reasons. The biggest is because it seems to me that the idea of "leave no trace" is clearly dead. There was trash everywhere, I was shocked. Wrappers, broken implements, half eaten food and half burned garbage were everywhere I looked. Second, I guess that the trail now has salespeople as I was given "free samples" and offered a sales pitch for someone's new business. Come on! The AT is where I want to go to avoid that rubbish, but I guess that that kind of nonsense is not even avoidable there. Have I gone crazy? Well now, I too just got back from the same section. I saw nothing like what you describe. I did not stay nor did I stop at any shelter. The trail was prestine and there was alot of folks on the trail. The closest I got to a shelter was when I walked past muskrat shelter and camping area. Looked like 20 plus there. I would be interested in hearing where exactly all the trash was suppose to be. Anyone esle out there last week?

daddytwosticks
04-29-2014, 15:49
Well now, I too just got back from the same section. I saw nothing like what you describe. I did not stay nor did I stop at any shelter. The trail was prestine and there was alot of folks on the trail. The closest I got to a shelter was when I walked past muskrat shelter and camping area. Looked like 20 plus there. I would be interested in hearing where exactly all the trash was suppose to be. Anyone esle out there last week? Same here. Less than two weeks ago, I did Deep Gap NC southbound to Dick's Creek Gap GA. Who tried to give you a sales pitch? :)

1234
04-29-2014, 16:52
some folks are just going to litter, plain and simple. I think other folks would not litter even it LNT was not stressed. Partnership shelter has pizza and there is a 1 yard dumpster that fills full of hundreds of pizza boxes and wrappers and such. It was a very clean and busy shelter.

JumpMaster Blaster
04-29-2014, 18:28
A 1 quart Ziploc frezer bag and some simple meal planning go a long way. Don't wanna carry icky trash? Bring ramen, dehydrated food, beef jerky, etc. When you pack your food, look at the package/container it comes in & ask yourself "do I want to carry this when it's empty"? You may think twice about the extra gooey candy bar or tin of sardines.

Sarcasm the elf
04-29-2014, 18:38
But then whose responsibility is it to empty the trash barrels? Or pay for them to be emptied? And at road crossings, they're just going to become a place for non-hikers to dump their crap that they don't want to pay the refuse service to take.

Unfortunately this has been my experience as well. Trailside garbage cans usually end up becoming places for people to clean out their cars or dispose of household refuse, particularly in areas that require dump permits or payment to use the local dump.

Damn Yankee
04-29-2014, 19:10
Are you joking? I'm not well traveled, but from what I hear littering is considered normal in many countries. Several independent sources have told me that Egypt in particular is literally flowing with garbage in the cities. Don't make this an America bashing thing...

I wasn't trying to bash America, just the lazy attitudes and the ability to take advantage of a good thing. There are a lot of countries in the middle east I can speak first hand of the trash, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait just to name a few. Yes I know it happens in a lot of countries where this is the norm but, we are supposed to be better, after all- weren't we brought up to know littering is wrong? These other countries I have mentioned and as you have heard from your sources, these countries were brought up that you do just throw your trash and what more their sewage in the streets.

MDSection12
04-29-2014, 19:24
I wasn't trying to bash America, just the lazy attitudes and the ability to take advantage of a good thing. There are a lot of countries in the middle east I can speak first hand of the trash, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, Kuwait just to name a few. Yes I know it happens in a lot of countries where this is the norm but, we are supposed to be better, after all- weren't we brought up to know littering is wrong? These other countries I have mentioned and as you have heard from your sources, these countries were brought up that you do just throw your trash and what more their sewage in the streets.
Ok, this makes more sense. So you're saying you've traveled to many countries where you didn't find any trash, not that you've traveled to many countries and never found any trash? Your wording could mean either, now that I re-read. :)

Out of curiosity, which countries did you not see any trash in? Do you believe it was due to littering not being an issue, or due to concerted efforts to clean up after litterers? I'd be very curious to see some data on this topic. :)

MuddyWaters
04-29-2014, 21:06
Most countries do not have the access to food and snacks that we do. The convenience store is unheard of, they cant fathom eating while driving a car. Id have to say americans likely place high on littering too. But the French have a wrap on 1st place in graffitti.

canoe
04-30-2014, 15:56
bump... OP please answer exactly where you were that was so trashed and what business approached you on the trail?

Coffee
04-30-2014, 16:05
I've never understood why it is so hard for people to pack out trash. If I cannot find a trash can, I accumulate maybe an ounce or two or garbage every day which is far less than the food weight that I'm losing every day. I just keep a ziploc bag for this purpose and dispose of it when convenient. What's with people dropping wrappers and other garbage on the trail or in shelters? It makes no sense.

Chair-man
04-30-2014, 22:35
When I did a section hike from Amicalola to Neels last Oct I was surprised how clean the tent sites and shelters were. I even poked around in the fire rings and they were all clean. I guess the wonderful trail club volunteers have their hands full trying to keep up in the spring time.

I wonder if any of the businesses who make a profit from the trail ever make donations to the trail clubs or the ATC? Companies like Osprey Packs, Lleki trekking poles, The North Face and all the rest.

QHShowoman
05-01-2014, 06:05
When I did a section hike from Amicalola to Neels last Oct I was surprised how clean the tent sites and shelters were. I even poked around in the fire rings and they were all clean. I guess the wonderful trail club volunteers have their hands full trying to keep up in the spring time.

I wonder if any of the businesses who make a profit from the trail ever make donations to the trail clubs or the ATC? Companies like Osprey Packs, Lleki trekking poles, The North Face and all the rest.

Some of those companies certainly do. The ATC lists their corporate donors in their Annual Report: http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/annual-report/annual_report_2012.pdf


And I've been to ATC events where they've raffled off prizes donated by gear companies as well.

Although I'm sure that what they donate is just a small percentage of how much they profit from the trail.

MockingJay
05-01-2014, 07:40
We just did a short section of the AT on that same section from Deep Gap to Rock Gap and I noticed the same thing...especially at the shelter areas were hikers congrugate. I try to pick up and burn any burnable trash when we have a fire and then I make a point to pack out anything that i see that's not burnable. If you check in the fire rings, there's usually a blackened tuna or coke can or two amongst the ashes. I noticed that the trash cans at Rock Gap were full. I reckon the NF campground folks maintain those.

joec
05-02-2014, 10:00
I do two section hikes per year and have not experienced this. I have always been impressed with the lack of litter on the trail. The only time I have seen litter is close to population areas, such as Maryland, where the trail has easy access.

Adriana
05-02-2014, 22:53
In the past couple of months had the pleasure of numerous wads of toilet paper and a plastic tampon applicator next to the creek just down from Long Creek Falls near 3 Forks. Yuck. Who knows where the used tampon wound up. Really? Really....Really gross!

And then there was the dirty diaper left next to the trail in the Cooper Creek area. I do wonder if some ofthis disgustingness are dayhikers who are cluelesss about LNT?