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I went on my first weekend trip of 2014, and did the AT from Sunset Fields parking area to the James River footbridge...the last part of this is a grueling downhill, and my knees were hurting every step along the outside of my knee. First it was only the right knee, and after a while, the left knee joined in. From what I have googled, it looks like maybe my IT bands were getting pinged?
No pain on ups, level, or slight downhills, but past a certain angle going down, it kicked in every time.
Anyone know some stretches or a way to prevent this, or do I just plan on taking anti inflammatories on hikes from now on?
jimmyjam
05-05-2014, 15:36
Sounds like IT band. I had the same thing . I googled it and found some exercises to do and built my knees up. No more problems . First you will need to let your knees heal ice and rest. Then start back slowly . It took me a month. I am mid 50s.
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Sounds like IT band. I had the same thing . I googled it and found some exercises to do and built my knees up. No more problems . First you will need to let your knees heal ice and rest. Then start back slowly . It took me a month. I am mid 50s.
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Thanks, jimmyjam, it's hell getting old, isn't it? What's so funny is, as soon as I stop going downhill, it completely goes away...I have no residual soreness or swelling. I do have 10 days to recover, and then it's off to do Grayson Highlands. I better get some stretching going before then.
daddytwosticks
05-05-2014, 16:08
Do you use trekking poles? They made a world of difference for me, although some here refer to them as crutches. :)
I went on my first weekend trip of 2014, and did the AT from Sunset Fields parking area to the James River footbridge...the last part of this is a grueling downhill, and my knees were hurting every step along the outside of my knee. First it was only the right knee, and after a while, the left knee joined in. From what I have googled, it looks like maybe my IT bands were getting pinged?
No pain on ups, level, or slight downhills, but past a certain angle going down, it kicked in every time.
Anyone know some stretches or a way to prevent this, or do I just plan on taking anti inflammatories on hikes from now on?
Suggest leaning on two trekking poles and slowing down on all downhills with any degree of slope and lightening your load (personal and pack).
Yeah, I was leaning on those hiking poles pretty hard, and it wasn't helping a lot. I had about 22 lbs as my load at the time the pain began, since we had eaten all the food I was carrying.
jimmyjam
05-05-2014, 16:42
Thanks, jimmyjam, it's hell getting old, isn't it? What's so funny is, as soon as I stop going downhill, it completely goes away...I have no residual soreness or swelling. I do have 10 days to recover, and then it's off to do Grayson Highlands. I better get some stretching going before then.
I do stretches and work with those big rubber bands and step up and down on a 3 to 5 inch stack of books. I am still 18 in my mind and that is what gets me in trouble. Lol
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Yeah, I really don't feel old until expletive deleted like this happens. It was a pretty tough downhill. We went down 1700' in about 2.5 miles.
Assuming it's IT band (which is very likely) also stretch your hamstrings and glutes. The IT band goes all the way from knee to butt and short, tight muscles on either end can cause problems. This is compounded for those of us who sit in a chair all day for work.
Your knee complaints may be completely reversible. I remember some years ago reading accounts of a doctor in the White Mountains that would see many cases of folks, who had come off the Appalachian trail, with knee pain. And for many of those sufferers she advised, "the problem is not with your knees, the problem is that your muscles, large muscles above and below the knee, and surrounding the knee, are not strong enough. I found this to be true with my knees and before I plan to hike ups and downs in mountains, I take a couple of months at a gym and strengthen the heck out of my legs with every sort of exercise available. I can travel pain free and with much more confidence that I won't twist, hyper-extend or otherwise do serious damage to my knees. Hope this helps. ---Abner
And ditto the trekking poles. If you have never used them you will find they take much stress off the knees.
Assuming it's IT band (which is very likely) also stretch your hamstrings and glutes. The IT band goes all the way from knee to butt and short, tight muscles on either end can cause problems. This is compounded for those of us who sit in a chair all day for work.
Yes, and I can recall being told I have very inflexible hamstrings, and I have been sitting on my ass for about 4 months as a slave to doing taxes.
Your knee complaints may be completely reversible. I remember some years ago reading accounts of a doctor in the White Mountains that would see many cases of folks, who had come off the Appalachian trail, with knee pain. And for many of those sufferers she advised, "the problem is not with your knees, the problem is that your muscles, large muscles above and below the knee, and surrounding the knee, are not strong enough. I found this to be true with my knees and before I plan to hike ups and downs in mountains, I take a couple of months at a gym and strengthen the heck out of my legs with every sort of exercise available. I can travel pain free and with much more confidence that I won't twist, hyper-extend or otherwise do serious damage to my knees. Hope this helps. ---Abner
Yeah, I was a bodybuilder for a while, but haven't hit the weights in quite some time. I used to have the strongest legs around, but probably not so much now.
And ditto the trekking poles. If you have never used them you will find they take much stress off the knees.
I am a trekking pole convert from way back!
Tron-Life
05-05-2014, 18:41
Assuming it's IT band (which is very likely) also stretch your hamstrings and glutes. The IT band goes all the way from knee to butt and short, tight muscles on either end can cause problems. This is compounded for those of us who sit in a chair all day for work.
I was having all sorts of problems from lower back pain to knee pain and pain on the tops of my feet. Stretching your calves and hamstrings especially help enormously to correcting any pain in those affected areas. Still, why not go to the doctor to get checked out just to make sure everything is ok? For me, not having to worry about some supposed injury is an enormous weight off of my mind and makes me able to proceed and overcome any physical obstacles with much more confidence and much less self-doubt and insecurity.
If at any time on the trail I fell discomfort I stretch my calves and hamstrings immediately and rest if even for one minute. This can make the difference between a mildly uncomfortable but still pleasant walk, and a death march till my next camp site. So the take home message is to see the doctor and then take it a little easier out there when going down hills and to stretch more as soon as you feel discomfort; be careful though to not over stretch the back of your knees when doing you hamstrings as this can cause more problems later on. I find downhill especially stressful as well and have benefited greatly from the above technique.
HikerMom58
05-05-2014, 18:55
Hey Namtrag
Other than the knee pain, how did you enjoy the hike? I hope you had a great time! :)
Leanthree
05-05-2014, 18:58
anytime you are just standing around, like in line at the supermarket, cooking dinner, peeing, whatever, balance on one leg and bend your knee ~15 deg. Don't put your arms out or anything silly looking, no one will really notice if you keep your up-leg close to the ground. Will strengthen all your random leg muscles and tendons.
IT band can be tough, in particular for anyone who goes between cycling and backpacking.
MuddyWaters
05-05-2014, 19:28
What feels like knee pain, often isnt the knee at all. Its tendonitis of the muscles that are around it. This really has nothing at all to do with muscle strength, its the conditioning of the tendons to repeated stress.
There are ITB specific stretches to do, also use the foam roller, while allowing it to heal.
I found the best thing for my knees, is a limited amount of running. Keeps all the knee area in shape in a way that weights alone simply will not.
Runners frequently have a different problem, too much of a good thing basically.
Thanks for all the great feedback. I already have been doing some stretches, and it feels good to stretch.
HikerMom, we had a great time. Lots of great scenery in that section, especially since the trees haven't leafed out much yet.
Pedaling Fool
05-06-2014, 09:04
Yeah, I was a bodybuilder for a while, but haven't hit the weights in quite some time. I used to have the strongest legs around, but probably not so much now.
Kind of sucks how we can't do X-amount of build up and keep it, just another way mother nature likes to keep us busy; you don't use it, you lose it -- mother nature's rule.
Funny, as I was doing squats yesterday in the gym I was thinking of how common knee pain is, not only in the hiking community, but all around. Some people automatically think these are joint issues and recommend things to "lubricate" the joints, but I think most cases are connective tissue issues (pardon the pun:))
People also seem to think that we need to baby our knees because they take so much abuse, but the abuse is unavoidable, so I say abuse them, works for me so far and I'm only 3 years your junior.
Another thing I was pondering yesterday is that we humans don't bend down too much any more in modern society, the most we bend our knees is to sit down and stand up and most of that time is spent sitting and when we do bend down/stand up we use supports to help us. How often do people sit down/stand up without using their arms? You want to keep them healthy, you gotta work them through their range of motion. I wonder how much our ancestors had to bend down compared to us today?
Until science produces something better (and they will) the only thing we got is strength exercies for the muscles/connective tissue/bones.
My strength exercises lately are lifting grocery bags and backpacks! lol
I think this IT band thing was mainly because this was my first backpack of the year, and it was a very steep section that kicked it off. Those knee ligaments and tendons are definitely not in shape for that yet. The problem in Va Beach is there are no hills, and I can't simulate going downhill on a treadmill unfortunately.
Like I said before, as soon as I stopped going downhill, the issue went entirely away, and I have had not a second of discomfort in the two days following the trip.
I do think we underuse our bodies, and particularly our connective tissues in our sedentary lives.
One thing positive is that I always try to stand up from chairs without using my hands to support me. I also can stand up from sitting on the ground without my hands.
I am not sure if this plays into my issues or not, but I have noticed that I get sore hamstrings when going uphill, and hardly any soreness in my quads...seemingly the opposite of what intuitively you would think would be sore. I was the same way when I used to do a lot of squats. Always sore hamstrings, but never sore quads. Not sure what it means, but it does seem odd.
Mitey Mo
05-06-2014, 11:46
I want to add to this. I have the same problem. Strong muscles help but so does LOTS of ibuprofen. I also found that pointing my toe to the outside when I took that downhill step eliminated any pain. Shuffling sideways on the downhills when the path is safe also helps.
leatherwheels
05-06-2014, 11:48
The problem in Va Beach is there are no hills, and I can't simulate going downhill on a treadmill unfortunately.
One thing you may try is running/walking up and down stairs to simulate the ups and downs of hills. An option I've used is going to the local high school and walking or running up and down the stadium bleacher stairs repeatedly. Could even do this wearing a loaded pack when you feel stronger. Another thing I've started to do is try to always use the stairs at work. I work on the third floor and fluctuate regularly throughout the day between the 1st four floors depending on the task at hand. Not a huge gain in elevation but I think doing this throughout the day has helped somewhat.
The rest of my immediate family live in Virginia Beach, me - not so lucky. Definitely not many hills. Maybe walk up and down Mt. Trashmore depending on how close you live to it? Never done it myself but driving by it looks like a fairly tall and steep grade.
shakey_snake
05-06-2014, 12:12
Stretch more. If your achilles' are too tight, your knees are going to take the brunt of it.
Fun test: outside of lazy western, chair sitting cultures, people just pop a squat where ever they want. The key to squatting comfortably is being able to keep your heels on the ground while doing so. Most western people (myself included!) have poor ankle dorsiflexion and therefore can't do that.
One thing you may try is running/walking up and down stairs to simulate the ups and downs of hills. An option I've used is going to the local high school and walking or running up and down the stadium bleacher stairs repeatedly. Could even do this wearing a loaded pack when you feel stronger. Another thing I've started to do is try to always use the stairs at work. I work on the third floor and fluctuate regularly throughout the day between the 1st four floors depending on the task at hand. Not a huge gain in elevation but I think doing this throughout the day has helped somewhat.
The rest of my immediate family live in Virginia Beach, me - not so lucky. Definitely not many hills. Maybe walk up and down Mt. Trashmore depending on how close you live to it? Never done it myself but driving by it looks like a fairly tall and steep grade.
It's a ways to Mt Trashmore, but not too bad. Might be able to do it on weekends. And the stair idea is great. I am in a 3 story building and it wouldn't be too hard to go down and up the two separate 3 story stairwells a few times a day...thanks for the suggestion!
Stretch more. If your achilles' are too tight, your knees are going to take the brunt of it.
Fun test: outside of lazy western, chair sitting cultures, people just pop a squat where ever they want. The key to squatting comfortably is being able to keep your heels on the ground while doing so. Most western people (myself included!) have poor ankle dorsiflexion and therefore can't do that.
No achilles pain at all (knock on wood!)
That squatting thing is true of almost everyone. In fact you will see bodybuilders put a 2x4 under their heels (Arnold made this famous) when they do squats.
I just stood up and did the test and it was pretty easy for me to squat down without lifting my heels. It didn't feel great, and I am not sure how long I could hold it, but at least I could do it! :)
You see little kids do it all the time. Instead of going on their knees to look at stuff on the ground, they just squat down.
Just to add my two cents, I've suffered from knee issues for a few years, mostly from not knowing how to run when I was younger. I can still remember my first time on the approach trail at Amicalola, coming down those steps by the waterfall, my knees were screaming. It didn't help that I was severely dehydrated, carrying way too much weight, and a little out of shape. I'm still in my twenties and I felt like an eighty year old man. I love to hike and run and bike so I knew I had to do something to cut down on the pain. I do squats all the time, I work on my balance and posture, I always stretch before doing any sort of exercise (but not a lot of stretching because I've found that that can have the opposite intended effect). I also realized that I over pronated my gait. I got better shoes and started really trying to focus on how my legs work when I'm using them in high exercise situations, including making sure that my knees are tracking the way they're suppose to. I've had several people tell me I look taller recently and I've had to tell them it's because I'm making a concerted effort to improve my posture. I've noticed that my knees and legs in general feel much stronger now and instead of feeling in pain after a jog or long hike, I actually feel good and my muscles feel strong.
soul patch
05-06-2014, 13:12
I experience the same pain on the outside of my left knee, only on steep down hills, even while using hiking poles. I found that a an elastic strap placed just below the knee around the IT band solved the problem, if i start with it it doesn't act up, even if i forget and put it on after i feel the first twinge of pain it still seems to hold the band in place and makes it bearable. my 0.02 cents.
Josh Calhoun
05-06-2014, 15:01
i had the same problem and had to wear full knee braces from mile 30 until Katahdin. I still hurt going down hill without them on. get you some good knee braces and it should fix you right up
I'm one month into my thruhike and I had knee pain for the first couple weeks. Now my knees feel okay so I guess my body has adapted! :)
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Thanks everyone for all the useful tips, and it sounds like it is not necessarily a problem only for the elderly such as myself lol. It probably would have been wiser to choose a flatter first trip of the season as well.
Pedaling Fool
05-09-2014, 09:25
I do think we underuse our bodies, and particularly our connective tissues in our sedentary lives.
The thing is most people blame our modern lifestyle for living a sedentary lifestyle and while there is some truth in that it's important to understand that one must not blame society for all one's problems that stem from a sedentary lifestyle, yet people continue to do just that.
In other words, it's a choice for you and most people make a choice to be sedentary; you can't tell me that the bottom graph is so disproportionately tilted towards car driving because of infrastructure or any other cause; it's because people choose to be lazy. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/americas-emerging-love-affair-with-bikes/361939/
I hear this infrastucture-crutch so often and it's total BS. Anyone that underuses their body has made a choice, period.
The thing is most people blame our modern lifestyle for living a sedentary lifestyle and while there is some truth in that it's important to understand that one must not blame society for all one's problems that stem from a sedentary lifestyle, yet people continue to do just that.
In other words, it's a choice for you and most people make a choice to be sedentary; you can't tell me that the bottom graph is so disproportionately tilted towards car driving because of infrastructure or any other cause; it's because people choose to be lazy. http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/05/americas-emerging-love-affair-with-bikes/361939/
I hear this infrastucture-crutch so often and it's total BS. Anyone that underuses their body has made a choice, period.
I only agree with this up to a point. I suppose I could have chosen to be a stone mason instead of an office manager, but an office manager is what my skills and temperament have led me to be. There are a great many jobs like this, where physical activity is quite limited. I get out and about during my non-working hours, but I suspect that the sedentary time takes its toll by making me more prone to injury when I do start moving.
Quite a different situation than people who are drawing water from wells and gathering stove fuel…or hiking all day every day.
Just sitting in one position 7-8 hours per day has got to have some effect, even if you run 10 miles a day before work.
squeezebox
05-09-2014, 21:32
Would elastic knee high stockings help. They help a lot with supporting the calf muscles. which I would guess would affect the knee.
At $40 a pair kinda pricy. Double use sock liners.
Would Ketamine Hydrochloride cream ("Dual K" or "Activemax") help? Long distance runners use it for rehabbing connective tissue in their knees? Anyone here familiar?
MuddyWaters
05-09-2014, 22:54
DMSO , be sure you know what to do with it.
Pedaling Fool
05-10-2014, 08:38
I only agree with this up to a point. I suppose I could have chosen to be a stone mason instead of an office manager, but an office manager is what my skills and temperament have led me to be. There are a great many jobs like this, where physical activity is quite limited. I get out and about during my non-working hours, but I suspect that the sedentary time takes its toll by making me more prone to injury when I do start moving.
Quite a different situation than people who are drawing water from wells and gathering stove fuel…or hiking all day every day.
Just sitting in one position 7-8 hours per day has got to have some effect, even if you run 10 miles a day before work.I agree all I was saying was that too many people use a crutch for their issues or actions. That's not to say they don't have challenges.
Totally agree, most people find an excuse not to be active!
I agree all I was saying was that too many people use a crutch for their issues or actions. That's not to say they don't have challenges.
I agree with that wholeheartedly. My standard line with coworkers who say they don't have time to exercise (after having told me about various TV shows they've watched): If you had time to watch TV, you had time to exercise.
warld piece
05-11-2014, 11:08
I read your problems and sounds like my exact problem. Lower outside knee pain only on strenuous downhills. Aleve did nothing for me, but ibuprofen regularly relieved inflammation. I bought knee wrap w/ hinges and switched from knee to knee depending on how each knee felt during day, after a few days on trail my knees don't hurt. Use stairs or bleachers for exercises at beach where hills are lacking. Best of luck.
I've been diagnosed with runner's knee, but the truth is, I have all kinds of weak places around my hips, thighs, and legs, and when I decide to get up after working the week at my desk and run a couple miles or go for a long hike, my legs aren't strong enough to move my knees where they're supposed to move, and I get all kinds of pain.
I've been helped enormously by getting some physical therapy and learning some stretches to exercises to strengthen those weak places. Working my IT band with a foam roller hurts like heck (and leaves me cussing like a sailor) but it helps a lot. It's also helped by getting an adjustable desk at work, so I can stand for part of the day, and sit for part of the day. (Once I'd used the company insurance a couple times for PT, for knee, back, and wrist problems, my boss was quick to pay for one in the hopes of avoiding a worker's comp claim.)
Stretch everything that's tight, foam roll the IT band, and don't sit in one place for long.