View Full Version : Great Smoky Mountain Weirdness??
JumpMaster Blaster
05-05-2014, 19:26
So let me get this straight- the only options for thru-hikers in the Smokys is to bed it down in the shelters???
The only option for a section hiker is to bed it down in the shelters.
What if I'm doing a section & the shelter is full? What if I'm a thru hiker & the shelter is full?
What I'm getting at is this: if I'm doing a section hike I'd rather stay in a tent, but when is that allowed in the Great Smoky weirdness Nat'l Park?
And what if you plan a section hike, and all the spaces at the shelter are reserved? THEN do you get to tent (if that's a preference of yours). I'm so confused. My preference is to tent, 100% of the time during my hike, whether section or thru.
Starchild
05-05-2014, 19:38
Visitors to the Smokys must reserve space in the shelter. Thru hikers are exempt for this (along with long distance hikers who qualify under their definition meant to mean thru hikers). If you reserve you should have a space in the shelters available to you. They don't overbook as they would rather less people go as that lowers impact.
So 'in theory' all visitors have reserved spots in shelters, all thru hikers come under different guidelines and can tent if needed.
In practice the lines are somewhat blurry.
mtntopper
05-05-2014, 19:42
In addition, to qualify as a thru hike, your hike must begin and/or end at least 50 miles on either side of the park.
MuddyWaters
05-05-2014, 19:55
What I'm getting at is this: if I'm doing a section hike I'd rather stay in a tent, but when is that allowed in the Great Smoky weirdness Nat'l Park?
And what if you plan a section hike, and *gasp* all the spaces at the shelter are reserved? THEN do you get to tent (if that's a preference of yours). I'm so confused. My preference is to tent, 100% of the time during my hike, whether section or thru.
No tenting allowed at shelters for section hikers, theoretically.
If you dont have shelter reservations, you simply cannot legally go. Apply as early as allowed, and you will get them.
Leanthree
05-05-2014, 20:04
If you only like to tent then I wouldn't recommend the AT in GSMNP as a section hiker. There are tons of public lands to visit which allow tenting.
Ox97GaMe
05-05-2014, 20:57
I don't understand why so many people have problems understanding the rule.
You can ONLY camp outside a shelter if...
a) you are entering the park under a thru-hiker permit AND
b) the shelter is full
All others must have a general backcountry permit and stay inside the shelter.
daddytwosticks
05-06-2014, 07:17
I've booked shelter reservations twice so far for my AT trips through the park. The new system works great. Just plan early and book at the 30 day point and you should be fine. :)
Gambit McCrae
05-06-2014, 08:21
I studied these rules quite thoroughly and this is exactly what the rules are:
Everyone must buy a permit which means you register for what nights you will be staying at what shelter.
Now, Lets say you are staying at a shelter that holds 10 people.
2 of those spots are reserved for thru hikers, so right off the bat there are only 8 spots available for section hikers.
lets say you are a section hiker, and you get to the shelter and there are 7 section hikers and 3 thru hikers in the shelter, even though you have a permit and a spot in the shelter, your spot has been taken by a thru hiker who does not fall under the "tell the park what shelter you will be staying at" clause so therefore the shelter is legally full, and you as a section hiker can now tent camp RIGHT outside the shelter, not wherever you please along the trail...
Alligator
05-06-2014, 08:50
I studied these rules quite thoroughly and this is exactly what the rules are:
Everyone must buy a permit which means you register for what nights you will be staying at what shelter.
Now, Lets say you are staying at a shelter that holds 10 people.
2 of those spots are reserved for thru hikers, so right off the bat there are only 8 spots available for section hikers.
lets say you are a section hiker, and you get to the shelter and there are 7 section hikers and 3 thru hikers in the shelter, even though you have a permit and a spot in the shelter, your spot has been taken by a thru hiker who does not fall under the "tell the park what shelter you will be staying at" clause so therefore the shelter is legally full, and you as a section hiker can now tent camp RIGHT outside the shelter, not wherever you please along the trail...This is not correct information. Thru-Hikers must always give up bunk space in shelters to those with shelter reservations per GSMNP website. The thruhiker can then tent in the immediate area around the shelter.
Backcountry Permit System is at https://smokiespermits.nps.gov, select General Backcountry or AT Thru-hiker Permits to find the specific permit regs. The General Backcountry Regulations are at http://www.nps.gov/grsm/planyourvisit/backcountry-regs.htm
Starchild
05-06-2014, 08:59
This is not correct information. Thru-Hikers must always give up bunk space in shelters to those with shelter reservations per GSMNP website. The thruhiker can then tent in the immediate area around the shelter.
This is my understanding of it also, although the other posting seems to claim studying the rules and may be able to provide additional info.
And the situation he noted (full shelter including the 3 thru hikers), my understanding is yes it is that the thru hiker is suppose to give up the spot to the reservation holding section hiker, but where it gets a little blurry is when the section hiker gets to the shelter late perhaps while all are sleeping and many times would set up tent as opposed to waking everyone in the shelter to find out who should move. Though in this I have heard some section holders intentionally getting to the shelter late so that they hopefully can tent.
Starchild
05-06-2014, 09:07
Rules allow a someone holding a thru hiking (long distance, whatever) permit to tent if the shelter if full.
The Smoky shelters are very large, many (all?) contain dual level sleeping platforms and a dirt floor in a tarp enclosed section, then a equally as large roofed section on the other side of the tarp.
Where is a thru hiker suppose to sleep? on the dirt floor near the tarp enclosed sleeping area, under the roofed section of the outside the tarped area, or near but outside of the shelter? Or are any combo's of these OK. I did have some thru hikers put down a ground cover on the dirt floor inside the tarped area on crowded (and cold) situations where the shelter was full, is that acceptable under the rules?
Gambit McCrae
05-06-2014, 09:25
My point exactly, say said section hiker gets to shelter and all is quiet, and dark. He sees that the shelter is full, is he going to wake everyone up so that one body can lay on the ground instead of his own? nope. lol
Anyone that is hiking in the smokies on the AT should (no not all are) be prepared in the since that they have a secondary shelter. Lets say you get to the shelter and its burnt to the ground, or a huge tree has fallen on it, or even just that a couple ol' thru hikers got there first... I dont think that if everyone has a permit, that a ranger is going to care if there is a thru hiker in the shelter and a sectioner in a tent. If the shelter is full, its full.
Oh and not to sound frumpy, but that incorrect information/ Example? Has been explained to me by both a park ranger in Cades Cove as well as a ridgerunner along the trail.
Alligator
05-06-2014, 09:27
I was adding the links when you quoted me Starchild. The area around the shelter is available for camping for a thru if the shelter is full.
Sarcasm the elf
05-06-2014, 09:31
I don't understand why so many people have problems understanding the rule.
You can ONLY camp outside a shelter if...
a) you are entering the park under a thru-hiker permit AND
b) the shelter is full
All others must have a general backcountry permit and stay inside the shelter.
The main reason people don't understand it is because the park is the ONLY section of the 2080 mile long A.T. that has these restrictions, so it's not something that people that have hiked other parts of the trail are anticipating. If it weren't for this site, I probably wouldnt know about the GSMNP shelter restrictions either.
Alligator
05-06-2014, 09:42
My point exactly, say said section hiker gets to shelter and all is quiet, and dark. He sees that the shelter is full, is he going to wake everyone up so that one body can lay on the ground instead of his own? nope. lol
Anyone that is hiking in the smokies on the AT should (no not all are) be prepared in the since that they have a secondary shelter. Lets say you get to the shelter and its burnt to the ground, or a huge tree has fallen on it, or even just that a couple ol' thru hikers got there first... I dont think that if everyone has a permit, that a ranger is going to care if there is a thru hiker in the shelter and a sectioner in a tent. If the shelter is full, its full.
Oh and not to sound frumpy, but that incorrect information/ Example? Has been explained to me by both a park ranger in Cades Cove as well as a ridgerunner along the trail.That's all well and good until you sleep late in your tent the next morning and you get a ticket and a "tell it to the judge" because the thruhikers filling up the shelter are up and gone.
How one ranger interprets the regs may differ from another. I don't much expect anyone getting hassled but those are the rules listed.
Everyone can show some courtesy given the situation. Sectioners arrive at a reasonable hour and thrus know the rules and give up the spot, the sectioner has not written the rules.
bigcranky
05-06-2014, 09:58
That's all well and good until you sleep late in your tent the next morning and you get a ticket and a "tell it to the judge" because the thruhikers filling up the shelter are up and gone.
This is easily avoided if you have a permit, treat the ranger with respect, and explain the situation. The rangers don't expect you to enforce the shelter rules by yourself.
The people who get tickets or escorted from the park don't have permits and/or give the ranger a hard time.
HooKooDooKu
05-06-2014, 10:01
...Where is a thru hiker suppose to sleep? on the dirt floor near the tarp enclosed sleeping area, under the roofed section of the outside the tarped area, or near but outside of the shelter? Or are any combo's of these OK. I did have some thru hikers put down a ground cover on the dirt floor inside the tarped area on crowded (and cold) situations where the shelter was full, is that acceptable under the rules?
I have studied many of the GSMNP rules... beyond those published on the back of the Trail Map and those listed on the web page for obtaining permits...
...and I must say that I don't recall any rule that says you many not sleep on the dirt floor inside a shelter.
The only applicable rules that come to mind say something along the lines...:
1. Hammocks many not be attached to any part of a shelter.
2. Only thru hikers may tent in the area around a shelter when the shelter is full (I think this implies you can not setup a tent inside a shelter)
3. Hammocks are treated like tents
4. Thru hikers must give up there spot in a shelter to section hiker with a permit.
However, the rules also seem to imply that a shelter is "full" when all the platform spots have been taken (i.e. you're not expected to sleep on the dirt floor even if it is not prohibited).
So if a shelter accommodates eight people and seven spots are taken, with gear taking up what could be the eight spot, and one arrives at 10pm, it is required to disturb the occupants to make room or face a possible fine the next morning for tenting. I really dislike the GSMNP system, much more so than any other wilderness permit system than I know of. And that's one reason I haven't backpacked there and probably will not except on an AT thru hike when I'll make every effort to hike through the park as quickly as possible to minimize the number of nights within that jurisdiction (which perhaps is the goal - lowering use).
HeartFire
05-06-2014, 10:28
There are plenty of campsites in the GSMNP. If you don't want to stay in a shelter, dont' hike the AT, there is over 800 miles of fabulous trails in the park. 90% of which are much better than the AT.
Alligator
05-06-2014, 10:29
This is easily avoided if you have a permit, treat the ranger with respect, and explain the situation. The rangers don't expect you to enforce the shelter rules by yourself.
The people who get tickets or escorted from the park don't have permits and/or give the ranger a hard time.I agree and like I said in my post "I don't much expect anyone to get hassled".:):)
HooKooDooKu
05-06-2014, 10:36
... I really dislike the GSMNP system, much more so than any other wilderness permit system than I know of...
Apparently you have never attempted to backpack in the Grand Canyon.
Generally speaking, the GSMNP system isn't that bad... and like any system, it's only as good at the people utilizing it. After all, there ARE 'rouge' hikers out there... those that camp in GSMNP without a permit... and there's no amount of "rules" you can put in place there is going to accommodate all the stupid stuff people do.
And you'll notice a common theme to many of these "what if" questions... "hiker arrives at 10pm/late/etc".
The lesson to take from that is that you should try to plan your days so that there is little chance you will be arriving "late" to a shelter.
And for thru hikers and section hikers alike... arrive at shelters at a decent hour, come expecting the shelter to be full (i.e. have a back-up plan such as a tent), and simply practice common curtsy... and everything will work out fine.
Starchild
05-06-2014, 10:39
So if a shelter accommodates eight people and seven spots are taken, with gear taking up what could be the eight spot, and one arrives at 10pm, it is required to disturb the occupants to make room or face a possible fine the next morning for tenting. I really dislike the GSMNP system, much more so than any other wilderness permit system than I know of. And that's one reason I haven't backpacked there and probably will not except on an AT thru hike when I'll make every effort to hike through the park as quickly as possible to minimize the number of nights within that jurisdiction (which perhaps is the goal - lowering use).
This happens quite often, not necessarily in the Smokys, but it is not uncommon for a late commer to be squeezed in by reshuffling gear, usually goes very smoothly.
Apparently you have never attempted to backpack in the Grand Canyon.
It so happens that I have backpacked in the Grand Canyon. I spent three nights below the rim last June. Yes, the Grand Canyon is restrictive just like GSMNP but the key difference for me is that the restriction was on where I could tent camp. Yes, if I arrived late at a campground the risk would be that I would have a less attractive camp site. Yes, I could not make spontaneous changes to my itinerary. All of that I didn't like. But I didn't face the issue of potential conflict with other hikers regarding a 3x8 foot piece of ground within a communal shelter space and all the associated issues that go along with it.
The GSMNP policy may be justified and I'm not qualified to say whether it is or isn't, but I do have the right to say that I don't like it and will therefore avoid the AT within the park unless on a thru hike. My opinion. Others may have different opinions. It is a free country.
flemdawg1
05-06-2014, 10:58
The GSMNP policy may be justified and I'm not qualified to say whether it is or isn't, but I do have the right to say that I don't like it and will therefore avoid the AT within the park unless on a thru hike. My opinion. Others may have different opinions. It is a free country.
Your loss, it's a georgeous hike.
The whining about GSMNP's shelter reservation/permit system is well overblown. There isn't a ranger hiding behind every tree waiting to write a ticket. The shelters are usually not overflowing (many folks cancel and their spots go unused), and besides some snoring and people leaving their stuff on the tables (pet peeve of mine), I've never had a single incident at a GSM shelter. The beauty outweighs the PITA immensely.
Francis Sawyer
05-06-2014, 11:38
Folks, let's not over-analyze this. Just go with the flow and put one foot in front of the other.Peoples gonna have heart attacks worrying about silly stuff.
Your loss, it's a georgeous hike.
The whining about GSMNP's shelter reservation/permit system is well overblown. There isn't a ranger hiding behind every tree waiting to write a ticket. The shelters are usually not overflowing (many folks cancel and their spots go unused), and besides some snoring and people leaving their stuff on the tables (pet peeve of mine), I've never had a single incident at a GSM shelter. The beauty outweighs the PITA immensely.
You might be correct, but I am not whining, just stating my personal preference regarding permit systems.
Gambit McCrae
05-06-2014, 20:59
Coffee leads to heart attacks
superman
05-06-2014, 22:01
Take the BMT through the Smokies. You'll be glad you did. It's way better than the AT.
JumpMaster Blaster
05-06-2014, 23:06
There are plenty of campsites in the GSMNP. If you don't want to stay in a shelter, dont' hike the AT, there is over 800 miles of fabulous trails in the park. 90% of which are much better than the AT.
The OP wasn't about hiking the rest of the GSMNP, it was about section hiking the AT THRU the park. Right now I couldn't care less about the other trails in the park-I'm only concerned with the White Blazes.
Ox97GaMe
05-06-2014, 23:12
So if a shelter accommodates eight people and seven spots are taken, with gear taking up what could be the eight spot, and one arrives at 10pm, it is required to disturb the occupants to make room or face a possible fine the next morning for tenting. I really dislike the GSMNP system, much more so than any other wilderness permit system than I know of. And that's one reason I haven't backpacked there and probably will not except on an AT thru hike when I'll make every effort to hike through the park as quickly as possible to minimize the number of nights within that jurisdiction (which perhaps is the goal - lowering use).
Coffee,
Most of the discussion here on Whiteblaze references the shelters along the AT. The majority of the GSMNP has backcountry campsites (not shelters). All but 3 of the actual shelters within the park are along the AT. If staying in a shelter is your primary issue, look for alternate routes through the park. As has been suggested, you can hike the BMT through the park. There is only 1 shelter along that trail and you can plan your trip in such a way as to hit it at lunchtime rather than for your night's stay.
There are over 100 campsites and 850+ miles of trails other than the AT to explore in the GSMNP. Try not to judge the entire park based on what you have heard and or presume regarding just 12 shelters.
Gambit McCrae
05-07-2014, 07:58
+1 :clap
Coffee,
Most of the discussion here on Whiteblaze references the shelters along the AT. The majority of the GSMNP has backcountry campsites (not shelters). All but 3 of the actual shelters within the park are along the AT. If staying in a shelter is your primary issue, look for alternate routes through the park. As has been suggested, you can hike the BMT through the park. There is only 1 shelter along that trail and you can plan your trip in such a way as to hit it at lunchtime rather than for your night's stay.
.
There are over 100 campsites and 850+ miles of trails other than the AT to explore in the GSMNP. Try not to judge the entire park based on what you have heard and or presume regarding just 12 shelters
Alligator
05-07-2014, 09:05
The OP wasn't about hiking the rest of the GSMNP, it was about section hiking the AT THRU the park. Right now I couldn't care less about the other trails in the park-I'm only concerned with the White Blazes.Thrus and sectioners can avoid several shelters by using campsites on side trails throughout the park. Consider using sites 9, 10, 26, 68, 29, 37, and even Big Creek. East of Newfound Gap would be the one place that lacks close options. So you might have to stay in one shelter.
So what if I just walk off the trail about 100 feet, take off my pack, lean against it and take an extended "rest" between 8 PM and 5 AM, then keep moving when I am rested?
flemdawg1
05-07-2014, 09:50
Good luck walking 100 ft, the AT in GSMNP are usually on ridgetops. walking 100 ft would normally accompany a 300 ft drop off. I doubt a ranger, if you were found, would think your little scheme was so cute and you'd probably be ticketed.
+1 :clap
There are over 100 campsites and 850+ miles of trails other than the AT to explore in the GSMNP. Try not to judge the entire park based on what you have heard and or presume regarding just 12 shelters
Fair enough. I have been to the park before but only for day hiking. I will say that I was primarily commenting on the shelter policy along the AT, although that was not clear in my original response.
Rain Man
05-07-2014, 09:53
So what if I just walk off the trail about 100 feet, take off my pack, lean against it and take an extended "rest" between 8 PM and 5 AM, then keep moving when I am rested?
Reputation is what you do when others are watching. Character is what you do when no one is watching.
Rain Man
.
HooKooDooKu
05-07-2014, 09:57
So what if I just walk off the trail about 100 feet, take off my pack, lean against it and take an extended "rest" between 8 PM and 5 AM, then keep moving when I am rested?
To the best of my knowledge, there's no rules against night-hiking... so as long as you don't do anything that looks like "camping" (such as setting up a tent/tarp/hammock), I suspect you'd be alright.
But then again, I can't find anything in the rules and regulations that defines "camping"... so if caught by a LEO, you are at his mercy as to what he would determine "camping" is.
flemdawg1
05-07-2014, 09:58
You might be correct, but I am not whining, just stating my personal preference regarding permit systems.
Whining-complain in a feeble or petulant way.
To the best of my knowledge, there's no rules against night-hiking...
one of my best hikes of the last few years was going up alum cave trail starting at 2 am......
surprisingly, there was no one else on the trail........
the only downside was getting woken up by the ranger when i was at the leconte shelter at 11 am.........and i had a permit.......
but my guess is that if one takes a "rest" on leaning against a tree between 8 pm and 5 am----they would get a ticket........
that's more than a rest period and the person who posed this question should be well aware of that......
Kind of like Joe Pesci's character in Goodfells - "Ranger: What are you doing here, lying in the weeds? Me: I'm resting! Raner: Here you are resting?"
Whining-complain in a feeble or petulant way.
Whatever, I've already clarified my concerns, so if you want to view it as whining, go ahead.
These rules bureaucratic rules get to be silly. Last summer I was the the Imp Tentsite on the AT in NH. I had to negotiate with the caretaker for which two specific trees I would use to hang my hammock. I had to walk around a small area pointing to trees, asking him, "how about this one?" He would shake his head, "yes" or "no." After a while, I found two trees the caretaker liked and then I was then lectured that I had to have all my "stuff" on a nearby tent platform at all times, to comply with "regulations". Ending the lecture, the caretaker said, "We don't let people camp just anywhere in the woods around here." Looking around at the 1000s of trees in my immediate vicinity, I let the absurdity and stupidity of that statement go, just marveling the Universe had produced such a one. Now I avoid all official campsites and tent sites, but I follow all rules, of course.
squeezebox
05-07-2014, 15:14
I'm glad to hear there is an optional trail through GSMNP as a way to avoid the bureaucratic stuff.
But since there are people who don't follow LNT, let their dogs run loose, leave trash,inappropriate fires etc,
If you act badly accept the consequences.
In the past month I gotten 2 tickets for expired license plates.
can't afford tires or a certain repair right now, who's fault ? Mine.
We are now all stuck with rules that some think foolish,
The bottom line is to protect the forest , not you ego.
HooKooDooKu
05-07-2014, 15:40
I'm glad to hear there is an optional trail through GSMNP as a way to avoid the bureaucratic stuff...
Well, that's not really the case.
If an AT thru hiker utilizes alternate paths thru GSMNP, they must obtain a 'General Backcountry Permit'. That permit requires reservations for each night for each campsite you plan to utilize and requires that you stick with a preset itinerary.
By contrast, a 'Thru Hiker Permit' does not tie you to specific shelters or specific days. Once you obtain a Thru permit, you've got 30 days to enter the GSMNP, and once you enter, you've got 8 days to leave. During the intervening 8 days, you are allowed to stay at any campsite/shelter along the AT.
Starchild
05-07-2014, 16:15
By contrast, a 'Thru Hiker Permit' does not tie you to specific shelters or specific days. Once you obtain a Thru permit, you've got 30 days to enter the GSMNP, and once you enter, you've got 8 days to leave. During the intervening 8 days, you are allowed to stay at any campsite/shelter along the AT.
Additionally it allows you to take some nights off trail, such as a resupply and overnight in Gatlingburg, but that does not extend the 8 day limit.
MuddyWaters
05-08-2014, 22:51
And you'll notice a common theme to many of these "what if" questions... "hiker arrives at 10pm/late/etc".
This actually does happen quite often Im sure. Many people plan trips there, and have overestimated their physical abilities. or get a late start after work, etc. They straggle into the shelters after 9pm when everyone else is already bedded down. Had some show up late at Mollies when we were there and slept in dirt in eating area. Filthiest sleeping bags I have ever seen the next morning. Not to mention this was where people eat and cook. Not smart, and it wasnt raining or anything.
At Icewater, a few of a group we passed that day at Clingmans showed up at 5pm. The rest of their group showed up later that evening. Hiked back the way they came the next day after deciding it was too hard for them .
ive had a late night getting into a shelter for one trip......spence field.......i was late because i talked for about an hour and half to another hiker..........got to spence field shelter around 9 pm.....luckily it wasnt full, but it really spooked the family that was there and asleep.........this family brought all their "stuff" up in plastic grocery bags...
two years ago at icewater, i had two hikers come in at 1 am........nobody but me was in shelter and it really scared me as i had just fallen asleep and started hearing voices and wasnt sure if i was dreaming or what....
The obvious choice for section hikers here that just don't want to stay in the shelters seems to be: Pretend to Thru Hike. Start 50 miles before the park, resupply right before going into the park. Go through the GSMNP. When you hit I-40 on the north side, give up your "thru hike".
Get to the shelters late and hope they are full. Once you're out of the park you can always just say, "Im beat, I can't go another step".
Or just avoid the damn thing all together, day hike parts of it from the car.