Cold Weather System [Archive]

DrunkenEngineer

09-25-2005, 13:15

I've got a Hennessy Explorer Asym. And I love it, however I find I get really cold without a sleeping pad at anything below 15C (60F), which is pretty much all year up in Canada. So with a pad I can sleep alright down to 0C(32F).

However, I want to go all the way to the winter, which is like -20C (-4F) on average with a wind. And it could get colder but I don't think I want to push my luck.

So what is the best system to take you all the way down to true cold weather camping. I've got a Mad Cat Deluxe fly which provides great wind protection, and I think if I set up close enough to the ground I could build a snow barrier around the bottom.

What should I get for an undercover that is reasonably priced. HH's Undercover has a nice price, but it doesn't look like it provides that much added warmth, can I place a sleeping bag in there, or will it get compressed. Any other systems.

Thanks for any help you can give.

Big Dawg

09-25-2005, 13:48

Check out www.jacksrbetter.com (http://www.jacksrbetter.com),,, or if you don't like "down",, do what I'm going to do & make a synthetic underquilt. With JacksrBetter, you would need 2 underquilts to keep you warm down to -4F,,, or by making a similar synthetic underquilt, you can make 1 underquilt w/ enough insulation to keep you warm down to whatever degree you want. I'm making mine to keep me warm down to +10F.

Just Jeff

09-25-2005, 14:11

Several options:

Get the JRB set. If you really want versatility, get the 4 Season Set and a Universal Blanket...assuming money's no object... I bet the Nest, NS and SUB on bottom, with the ORM on top, would get you WAY down the thermometer. And you could customize your kit for different temps because of the different thicknesses, too.

Or...

Get a Speer with a PeaPod. I find Speer hammock more comfy than HH, but I have the JRB set that I use on my homemade Speer. Adding extra layers of insulation inside the PeaPod will get you to very low temps, too. FWIW, my homemade Speers are like $10 each, so that's not a problem.

Or...

Do both. Make a Speer, get a PeaPod, and use the JRB set for the additional insulation. That way you can use you HH when it's only a little cold, and the Speer when it's cold enough to freeze eyelashes.

Or...

Make an insulated hammock. Risk has some plans on his site (www.imrisk.com (http://www.imrisk.com)) and I have some, too.
- Primaloft: http://www.geocities.com/jwj32542/HomemadeGearWarmHammock.html
- Down: http://www.geocities.com/jwj325342/HomemadeGearDownHammock.html
That'll save you a bit of weight over underquilt setups, too.

Or...

Get a SPE with really thick pads. Might be the cheapest option depending on the pads you use. You could get a down air mattress to sleep on, with a few CCF pads underneath it.

Or...

Combine them all. Get a PeaPod and a SPE with DAM and CCF pads....possibilities are endless.

rpettit

09-25-2005, 16:53

I use open cell foam bedding between the supershelter and hammock. $15 from Wal-Mart.

DrunkenEngineer

09-25-2005, 18:50

Thanks for all the info.

I would love to get the Jacks are Better cold weather system but it's a bit expensive. I'm thinking I should try and make my own.

Does any one have any guides to building a really warm undercover. Would it be easier to combine my homemade undercover with the Hennessy Supershelter?

peter_pan

09-25-2005, 19:40

Our tests of JRB quilts with the Super Shelter are not good... The Super Shelter is designed for a close fit to the hammock with a 1/2 inch open cell pad.... While a quilt will fit in the Super Shelter it will not properly loft due to the tight fit of the Super Shelter to the hammock...The JRB Nest is 2+ inches thick and takes most folk to about 30 degrees...The Old Rag Mtn quilt is now tabbed for use as an underquilt and is 3+ inches of 800 pf down. All JRB quilts have DWR finish and normally need no further wind or splash protection... There is a Weather Shield designed as a stand alone or as an outer protector to the family of JRB quilts which is waterproof, windproof and very breathable that adds 6-10 degrees of protection to any of the quilts.

Pan

Just Jeff

09-25-2005, 23:50

Does any one have any guides to building a really warm undercover. Would it be easier to combine my homemade undercover with the Hennessy Supershelter?
http://www.geocities.com/jwj32542/HomemadeGearKidsHammock.html for my synthetic underquilts.

If you're thinking about down, check the Down Hammock link above...it'll keep you warmer than an underquilt because you don't have to worry about gaps between the quilt and hammock, IMO, but you lose some versatility.

I'm also testing the Weathershield with a normal old sleeping bag inside it. I don't see any reason it won't work, but I need stronger shockcords to use it on my homemade Speer. It might work fine on the HH because of the side tabs, but I haven't tried it yet. I can probably make the stock JRB cords work on my Speer, but I don't want to stretch them out.

So, if you just get a Weathershield or similar undercover you might able to stick a sleeping bag or two in there and get off easy. I'd recommend making it breathable because Garlington says he gets some condensation inside his silnylon undercover. Not enough to bother him and he just dries it out, but I'd try to minimize any condensation. He seems happy with it, though.

DLFrost

09-26-2005, 00:07

I've got a Hennessy Explorer Asym. And I love it, however I find I get really cold without a sleeping pad at anything below 15C (60F), which is pretty much all year up in Canada. So with a pad I can sleep alright down to 0C(32F).

However, I want to go all the way to the winter, which is like -20C (-4F) on average with a wind. And it could get colder but I don't think I want to push my luck.
Sub-zero hammock camping, eh?

I'd get one of Ed Speer's hammocks, his pad extender (SPE) with the closed-cell foam inserts, an Exped down airmat (goes in the SPE), one of the down undercover/surround systems, and a down sleeping bag (with continuous baffles so the down can be shifted to the top).

The virtue of the DAM/down-bag setup is that if you find yourself overextended you can "go to ground" with something that's proven to work in extreme cold.

For longer trips you'd be wise to look into vapor barrier clothing/technique.

The down-to-5-degree system I'm working on will have an SPE, DAM, and a down bag rated for the expected conditions (20 or 0 degrees).

Doug Frost

Youngblood

09-26-2005, 08:34

... I want to go all the way to the winter, which is like -20C (-4F) on average with a wind. And it could get colder but I don't think I want to push my luck.

... I've got a Mad Cat Deluxe fly which provides great wind protection, and I think if I set up close enough to the ground I could build a snow barrier around the bottom ...
DrunkenEngineer,

Do you have the expertise and equipment to tarp camp with the Mad Cat Deluxe fly in those conditions? The reason I ask is that hammock camping is more akin to tarp camping than tent camping but with a few differences... bottom side insulation and wind exposure are a couple. How to keep water from freezing, dealing with hammock support ropes (or webbing) iced to a tree or snow covered tree limbs overhead are a few others that come to mind.

Hammocks are great in warm weather and anyone who has completed Camping 101 shouldn't have much trouble hammock camping to moderate temperatures. Before I used a hammock I would use either a tarp or a tent, depending on conditions... cold weather was one of the things that would cause me to use the tent. I'm not sure how many people that have responded have actually hammock camped in the conditions you are describing, but if it was me asking for advice I think I would ask about that.

Good luck with it.

Youngblood

jlb2012

09-26-2005, 09:47

DrunkenEngineer,

I'm not sure how many people that have responded have actually hammock camped in the conditions you are describing, but if it was me asking for advice I think I would ask about that.

Good luck with it.

Youngblood

I've done 10 deg. F in a HH Explorer Deluxe using an Exped DAM (equal to the Downmat 9 these days) plus a CCF pad with a 0 deg F down bag and a down jacket. Also used a stuff sack pillow and extra clothing to pad around shoulders. Notes: 1.) next time I'll put the CCF pad on top of the DAM - it took 15 to 20 minutes to warm up the DAM and I was rather cold while this was going on - with the CCF on top the DAM warmup will take longer but I probably won't feel as cold while this is going on; 2.) my site selection next to a small stream from a near by spring resulted in some heavy frost on the bug net above my head - it was unavoidable getting the snow on my hat while getting in and out of the hammock; 3.) the down jacket worked well for keeping the water unfrozen - it had rather large pockets; 4.) I keep the minimal amount of water overnight since I could get some more in the morning; 5.) it did not snow but I put the tarp up anyways - this may have contributed to the problem of the frost on the bug net.

The Solemates

09-26-2005, 13:40

Just Jeff

09-26-2005, 14:44

SPE - 3.5 oz - $45
Downmat 7 - 31.5 - $139
0F for $184 and 35 oz

That may be tough to beat with an underquilt. (The 31.5 oz for the DAM includes the stuff sack, and you'd still need a top blanket. The 0F comes from the SPE page.)

Youngblood, does the 3.5 oz listed on the SPE page include the wings? That might add a bit of weight, but not much. Also, I didn't see on the page what is used as a top blanket for the 0F...just a normal 2" quilt or something?

Peter Pan, what do you think the weight would be to get your underquilts down to 0F?

Anyone used a SuperShelter with thicker pads to temps this cold?

Youngblood

09-26-2005, 15:15

...Youngblood, does the 3.5 oz listed on the SPE page include the wings? That might add a bit of weight, but not much. Also, I didn't see on the page what is used as a top blanket for the 0F...just a normal 2" quilt or something?
The SPE with 4 wings is $35 and weighs 3.5 oz. That doesn't include the wings. The most each wing will hold is two 1/2" thick pads for a total wing thickness of 1"; eight of the wing pads weigh close to 7 oz.

But, DrunkenEngineer is in Canada and is talking about -4F with wind, on average. So no telling what low end temperature he needs insulation for, but I know that I don't have experience with those conditions whether in a tent or in a hammock. I have camped in no snow conditions in the low teens with hammocks and tents but my advice peters out when the temperature hits 20F. I hope he realizes that some of these guidelines for hammock insulation are guesses (especially this 0F and lower stuff) and may not be anything more than wishful thinking. He should be careful and plan on doing testing on whatever he comes up for winter hammock camping in conditions where he has a backup plan. For some reason I was thinking that they made four season and or mountaineering tents for the conditions I vision in Canadian winters.

Youngblood

Smee

09-26-2005, 17:05

Youngblood is absolutely correct! Few if any of us have had any experience camping in hammocks at those kinds of temperature extremes.

I personally have used my JRB quilts into the upper 20s using a nest below me, an Old Rag Mtn on top, and sleeping in fleece long johns. We've had many reports of customers using them into the 30s, and a few claiming 20s.

Speculating on what combination (if any) would work down to 0* wuold be just that - SPECULATION.

Your best bet is to do some research, find the best combination you can, and try it out with a safe backup ready in case you need it.

Just Jeff

09-26-2005, 20:22

Wow...I'm surprised how little support DE is getting. Obviously he needs more caution than normal 3 season camping, but I'm sure he understands that the risks with winter camping are his to assume if he does it. He's stated his willingness to solve a problem, so in my mind the issue isn't whether it's wishful thinking or not, but whether the extra gear is worth the comfort of hammocking. Of course it's speculation if no one has done it yet, but experimentation starts with speculation that something is possible, no?

Risk has gotten very cold in his hammock...I'd be interested in his input here.

I say, if he's willing to experiment (and hopefully post his findings here), let's give him the input he's asking for. Understanding, of course, that these are only ideas that haven't been tried yet. But the principles are sound, and with proper caution I don't see why he should give up the attempt.

It seems to me that in winter camping with a thick snow cover, you've already eliminated roots and rocks and unlevel ground, which cause the most discomfort on ground sleeping. So with a thick pad, tent sleeping would be almost as comfortable as sleeping at home for less weight.

Whistler

09-26-2005, 22:23

I'm not a hammock user, but I thought I'd interject a bit. Give some thought to the tarp you use. I remember seeing some photos here on WB where a hammock user had a very large tarp that basically went ridgeline to ground, and could be sealed up at either end. I think it was called a 'hammock tarptent' or something similar. Probably could help to trap some warm air and make a little micro-climate. I also like the idea you mentioned of a snow barrier.

My theory is if you can use slightly lighter bags in a tent [vs. tarp] for a given situation, you can probably use slightly less insulation in a 'hammotent' than with the normal Hennessy/ JRB/ MacCat tarps. A large, sealable tarp + giant Peapod + whatever other insulation. I guess I'm just thinking in layers...

Break some new ground, and let us know how it turns out!
-Mark

DrunkenEngineer

09-27-2005, 10:22

Youngblood

09-27-2005, 22:15

Thanks for all the great ideas!

Yes, I'm pretty experienced when it comes to winter camping. Plus I always have a backup building, and the hike is not that far in so packing the extra gear is possible.

But maybe -20C is to extreme. We'll say the goal is -10C to -15C. But I've already gone down to -10C in my hammock and that was just during the spring, although I froze.

I have a nice inflatable old thermarest that seems to have some insulation inside the pad, when I have that inside my hammock I'm always nice and toasty.
There are probably a number of solutions that will work for those conditions. Your HH Explorer is a big hammock. I put a big DAM mat (4+" thick, 80" long, 28" at its widest point, Stephenson Down Air Mattress) in one this weekend and the Explorer was big enough for the DAM and me (not sure a smaller HH would be)... I'm 6' tall and 210 lbs. (They come in different sizes but be aware that they sleep a little shorter in a hammock because of the curve of the hammock and the thickness of the mat.) It is my feeling that at temperatures well below freezing that a DAM starts looking pretty good. They are pretty light weight and low bulk, but inflation is somewhat of a PIA. A DAM is probably the warmest per weight per volume (packed volume or bulk) solution for very, very cold temperatures. It will probably be slippery in the hammock but you can tame that by putting a small piece of tacky closed cell foam pad (3/8"x10"x20"?) under it where your tush will be.

There is nothing preventing you from combining various schemes and it might be the way you want to go. I haven't been a fan of the HH Super Shelter but it might be just the ticket for your HH and winter conditions. Just not all by itself... it should keep the wind off of you, which will be real important.

What do you use on the ground underneath you for winter camping? Do you know which model of thermarest mat you have... they come in different thicknesses, with different types of foam which affects their weight and insulative value (some of the internal foam is solid and some is die cut to save weight)? You could look at trying to use as much of what you already have with the Speer SPE approach... the SPE wings only accomodate an inch of closed cell foam and that might not match up with the amount of insulation that you will want to put in the main sleeve. I don't know if that will be a show stopper, but it might be a limitation for your conditions... either minor or major or no problem. I figured 1" thick wings would be good to at least 20F but have not tested below 17F with no wind.

I haven't used Peapods or Underquilts, but the Speer Peapods (don't think there are any others available) won't fit your hammock. The Peapods are special sleeping bags that fully enclose the hammock. The Underquilts that JRB have are flat quilts that use a suspension system to hold it against part of the underside of the hammock, not the whole underside of the hammock. The suspension system has adjustments that affect the fit but due to the enclosed nature of the HH you can't reach these adjustments from inside the hammock. The preciseness of this fit figures to be inversely proportional to the temperature.

Like I mentioned before, there is nothing preventing you from combining some of the various techniques and it might be the way you want to go.

Again, good luck with it.

Youngblood

DLFrost

09-28-2005, 01:07

The SPE with 4 wings is $35 and weighs 3.5 oz. That doesn't include the wings. The most each wing will hold is two 1/2" thick pads for a total wing thickness of 1"; eight of the wing pads weigh close to 7 oz.
[...]
I hope he realizes that some of these guidelines for hammock insulation are guesses (especially this 0F and lower stuff) and may not be anything more than wishful thinking. He should be careful and plan on doing testing on whatever he comes up for winter hammock camping in conditions where he has a backup plan.
Definately agree with that. In the kind of cold we're talking about a sleeping system failure is a life-threatening emergency. Test and test some more.

Note that Ed Speer sells an "8-wing" SPE which has double width wings divided into two pockets by a seam. If you remove that divider you can use the extra-length wings with thicker padding, slightly narrowed to fit. (Some of the extra wing width is sacrificed to gain thickness.)

Doug Frost

Just Jeff

09-28-2005, 01:50

DE,

What did you use to get to -10C? That would probably be a good starting point to build your system on.

By "froze" do you mean too cold to sleep, or you kept waking up chilled every couple of hours, or you were dangerously cold?

I was too cold to sleep one night, so I boiled some water, poured it into my water bottle, stuffed it into a sock, and slept with it under my armpits or on my femoral artery. Warmed me right up. Or maybe it was just the smell from the dirty socks.

And to repeat the others...definitely test and be safe about it. And have fun with it!

Camper101

10-25-2005, 23:49

hello,

-10 is not that cold! I hit -10 on the week end ( October 21-23). I had a -18* celsius (-0.4 degree fehrenheit) sleeping bag with a sweat shirt and sweat pats with two pairs of cotten or synthetic socks. and a blue pad about 1 cm thick. I did fine! my body was warm but my feet were ice cold but i have gotten some tips on how to keep those warm:)! I am going to go to -20 (-4* fehrenheit) in no time! i plan to invest in some products that will take me all the way down to -30(-22*fehrenheit) all i have to say is go all the way down in our Canadian winters. Now when it hits -50 (-58*fehrenheit) i do advise to stay inside or even when it hit -40 stay inside! I know i will. I will enjoy the summer in my hammock because then temps are a lot higher!:sun

DrunkenEngineer

10-25-2005, 23:55

Wow, plan on getting down to -20C. I hope you plan on winning the lotto. Here is my plan for a system, should get me down to -20C with the windchill factored in:

Hennessy Explorer Hammock
-29C Down sleeping bag
Thermarest foam mattress 5cm thick
full armor of fleece clothing and head gear and face mask
extra thick fleece sleeping bag linear
Hennessy Supershelter under and over cover, with extra stuffing
Extra sleeping bag inside the hammock

And a bit more, but I have to play with it a bit.

MedicineMan

10-26-2005, 00:49

yes we can go to ground but its almost like an evolutionary thing. Once you enjoy the feeling of floating on a cumulonimbus cloud while sleeping you dont want to give that up for anything.
I think many here took on the challenge of colder and colder temps while trying and still trying to decrease the weight...i bet that there is something out there we hammockers haven't discovered yet that will prove invaluable in hitting the low temps and decreasing weight.
We've all embraced technology...have you seen the marmot suits that heat up with a battery pack, i know they've been around for a while for snowmobile suits....not that any of use want or would carry a battery pack, but what if the battery pack was 6oz.? i've got an electric bilge pump in one kayak that will pump for 2 hours straight, have you ever seen a Scat-Mat for pets? that kind of thinking. I'm still hoping that someone will come up with a very thin ceramic coated pad that will offer super heat retention as micro weights.

Just Jeff

10-26-2005, 02:04

I agree...the only time I plan on going to ground is when I'm above tree line, in the desert, camping with my wife (my kids hammock, but I haven't convinced her yet), or testing gear.

I can't wait for the next technology we find to apply to hammocks. Have you seen the clothes that heat up when you get them wet? Something like that sounds promising. And there's all kinds of gear now that carries electricity - jackets with glowing sleeves so you can read your map (and your friends can see you), tents with the same stuff in the walls so you don't need a flashlight, etc. Couple the solar panels in backpacks with the heaters you're talking about, and make it light enough, and it would make a great underquilt.

I used to have a handwarmer - a liquid-filled plastic pack with a disk inside. I popped the disk and the liquid turned solid and gave off crazy amounts of heat. Then I just boiled the pack and it turned back to liquid so I could reuse it. Probably weighed 3 oz. Wish I could find another one of those, since I boil water every night anyway.

Have you seen the BPL talk about aerogel? Looks promising...once it trickles down to us lowly non-laboratory types.

Oh well - until then, I'll stick with my Down Hammock, JRB underquilts, maybe the SPE...

New Bee

02-14-2006, 00:23

This is just my two cents, and by no means am I a model of example here!I went car camping / backpacking this week (1st full week of Feb '06) - three nights, 1st at 31*F, one at 27*F, and one night at 24*F. And what did I bring with me? My HH Expedition A-Sym, a cheap but large blue REI CCF pad (0.5in), a 30 deg synthetic sleeping bag, and that's pretty much it! I was able to suppliment with a fleece blanket i used to insulate my head and shoulders, and added toe warmers and slept in my shoes and clothes (with jacket)....again....I don't suggest doing this!I'm a small guy (5'4, 140lbs), so I fluffed up the sleeping bag around me for more "loft" to keep me warm. Over the three nights of sub freezing temps, the least of my worries was the insulation below me. The cheap, big, blue REI 0.5in CCF pad did its job as far as I was concerned...or maybe it did its job better relative to the other pieces of equipment I had!Anyway, I was able to get enough sleep each night...with adjustments every now and then. Because it went dark early (about 7pm) and I went to bed at about mid 40*F, I was able to get enough sleep...but by between 4am - 6am, I was too cold and was awake enough to get up and get in my car and continue on my way.By the way...I was making a half cross country trip from CA to TX...so yes I was car camping...and yes as a last resort I could have slept in my car, but I wanted to tough it out. Sites were: Joshua Tree NP, Davis Mountain SP, Enchanted Rock SP.In conclusion, with minimal stuff, I was cold, but was still able to get sleep. I think I got between 7 - 8 hours sleep each night. I'm now looking at the HH Supershelter system because I really don't want to take up more volume in my pack with underquilts and I don't like down at all...I do not want to be deterred by wet weather and so it's all synthetic for me. I will combine the Under cover with Over cover to help keep me warm, and suppliment the Underpad with inflated trash bags & a space blanket. Since I wasn't forced out of my HH and into my car, I think this will help with a Freezing night. Also, note my car has a digital themometer and that's how I was able to tell the temperature each morning I got up to continue my road trip.Hope this helped!New Bee

River Runner

02-14-2006, 03:39

I'm now looking at the HH Supershelter system because I really don't want to take up more volume in my pack with underquilts and I don't like down at all...I do not want to be deterred by wet weather and so it's all synthetic for me. I will combine the Under cover with Over cover to help keep me warm, and suppliment the Underpad with inflated trash bags & a space blanket. New Bee

I haven't found the Overcover necessary, and it actually could work against you because it is easier to build up condensation.

An Underquilt *may* take up less room in your pack than the Hennessy system, since the open cell foam is fairly bulky.

Hana_Hanger

02-23-2006, 05:30

Thanks for all the great ideas!

Yes, I'm pretty experienced when it comes to winter camping. Plus I always have a backup building, and the hike is not that far in so packing the extra gear is possible.

. Hi DrunkenEngineer,
From a girly view point....since extra gear is not a problem.

I remember wearing heavy duty complete snowsuits when we would ride in very cold..snowy...windy days and nights on our motorcycles. We lived in Big Bear Lake at the time and weekly went down to the beach.
We were toasty warm...of course we had to wear gloves too with liners in order to feel the handle bars even :o I rode in hail once in Cody Wy with those suits also....so I am sure you can hike in them as well.

Why would not a complete suit with a 1" CCF pad or better yet the Exped Down mat or another one like that should work to keep you warm?
A down quilt over you, and if able a down quilt under you as well...since I think it would be to hard to climb into a sleeping bag at this point.
Just my 3 cents worth of an idea floating by.

timhines

02-23-2006, 12:25

"cold" is relative to each and every person.

Is there some way you could contruct some sort of sheet around an emergency blanket to help preven condensation?