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July
05-21-2014, 19:06
So, was approached today by a friend and asked my opinion. He wanted to know my thoughts on placing solar panels with charging stations in backcountry shelters. Particuarly SW Va thru Western NC. Without getting too in depth, my thoughts were that shelters in general were often a blight on the forest, however, I do use them on occasion. The addition of the above mentioned equipment might def. draw a different group of people. I would hate to walk up to a shelter to see someone running an electric skillet, radio, hairdryer, etc... I am sure that there are good aspects, as well as negative. What do my fellow hikers think about this?

mikec
05-21-2014, 19:15
They could be prone to theft or vandalism but I would be for them.

Starchild
05-21-2014, 19:20
IMHO it's the future and we better not hide our heads in the sand but realize it. What is the difference if someone is running a electric skillet * or using compressed or distilled fuel. It comes from human society, and I think we need to get over that, we in our humanness are part of nature and welcome where we go, but we need to be respectful and responsible to that. We need to discover how we blend with nature, we are not meant to be isolated from it nor are we meant to isolate it from us, there is a balance point.

* an electric skilled would be a very high demand on a shelter's solar capacity so not supporting that specifically, but the point that we come into nature with our technology, we always have always will, we need to accept that and do it in a way that enhances the experience for the next person who comes along and all that follow.

Sarcasm the elf
05-21-2014, 19:30
Can we assume your friend doesn't do much hiking? Providing electricity to the shelters is completely out of line with the stated goals of the A.T. It certainly wouldn't benefit "a footpath for those who seek fellowship with the wilderness."

Plus, besides the fact that most shelters are found under dense tree cover that would render the panels mostly useless, you would need a full time caretaker at each shelter to make sure the equipment didn't get stolen. Solar panels and copper wire are worth quite a bit and easy enough to sell with no questions asked.

rickb
05-21-2014, 19:38
They have them at the huts.

By the time they get cheap enough for a backcountry shelter, me thinks they will have improved battery life so much that there would be little point.

Even now, it seems to be solution in search of a problem. Except when you get on a roll with Candy Crush, of course.

jimmyjam
05-21-2014, 19:54
I say no. I Backpack to get away from all the electronic stuff of everyday life.

Lone Wolf
05-21-2014, 19:56
So, was approached today by a friend and asked my opinion. He wanted to know my thoughts on placing solar panels with charging stations in backcountry shelters. Particuarly SW Va thru Western NC. Without getting too in depth, my thoughts were that shelters in general were often a blight on the forest, however, I do use them on occasion. The addition of the above mentioned equipment might def. draw a different group of people. I would hate to walk up to a shelter to see someone running an electric skillet, radio, hairdryer, etc... I am sure that there are good aspects, as well as negative. What do my fellow hikers think about this?

dumbest thing i've heard in a long time

Theosus
05-21-2014, 20:05
As long as the total output available was low enough, no one's going to be using hair dryers and skillets, etc. Think of a solar panel charging a small battery, with maybe four USB holes in the wall. Enough to charge a few phones overnight, but that's about it. More and more stuff is going to USB rechargeable now. I think there are a few Steripens, maybe some flashlights, Delorme's Inreach... there's more than just phones. I don't see it as a problem. Agreed with the theft issue, but as long as you put them on shelter that are far enough back from a road crossing, thefts will probably be minimal.

Ender
05-21-2014, 20:07
I think that they would 100% get stolen within a month of being installed.

MuddyWaters
05-21-2014, 20:14
If someone is addicted to their little toys, they will have no problem bringing their own little solar panel. Plenty do just that.
Batteries last a very long time if you just leave the stupid things OFF. My phone will last weeks and still have a full charge, I only send texts in the evening for a couple minutes.

ChinMusic
05-21-2014, 20:19
In 2014, a total waste of time and money.

TNjed
05-21-2014, 20:29
Where does it end? Lets put doors and wood floors and windows and beds with sheets and bathroom mirrors and whatever else doesn't belong in a shelter in one, better make sure they're landscaped proper. Benton, Myron and the boys wouldn't approve. Lets keep something "old school". This trail has changed so much in the past 10 years, it's getting ridiculous. Just hike, you don't need phones, computers or any of that crap while you are in the woods. Period.

Yankytyke
05-21-2014, 20:38
I do use my iPhone both to ran the mapmyhike ap & to arrange a pick up.
However I am a day hiker only. Thru hikers I don't see wanting to map their hikes continuously.
i also see the chance of theft being very high too. Let's keep the shelters primative & an escape from the modern world that so many people like about them.

sfdoc
05-21-2014, 20:46
I have to say NO. I realize that technology is here, now, and somewhat important. But, if it's that important to you, carry the recharging systems with you.

Wise Old Owl
05-21-2014, 20:50
So much negativity....

fiddlehead
05-21-2014, 21:00
My dad worked for Bell Telephone and badmouthed cordless phones when they came out too.
It's the future folks.
It's coming.
It wouldn't be hard to make them secure IMO.

Wise Old Owl
05-21-2014, 21:20
I vote we connect the shelters with Western Union Telegraph... How's your Morse code?:) How about original Morse instead of International....

July
05-21-2014, 22:09
Where does it end? Lets put doors and wood floors and windows and beds with sheets and bathroom mirrors and whatever else doesn't belong in a shelter in one, better make sure they're landscaped proper. Benton, Myron and the boys wouldn't approve. Lets keep something "old school". This trail has changed so much in the past 10 years, it's getting ridiculous. Just hike, you don't need phones, computers or any of that crap while you are in the woods. Period.


Brother, you sound solid.

LIhikers
05-21-2014, 23:44
I see more negatives than positives. How do you protect them from falling branches?, or the hiker who's gonna climb on the roof to brush the snow off the collectors so they can work in winter, or from animals that climb on the roof, and on and on and on. They would be another burden on maintaining clubs that often have a hard time finding volunteers to keep up the shelters and money to pay for the maintenance. I guess my boss is right when he says I'm cynical.

ChinMusic
05-22-2014, 00:07
If you want juice, bring a freaking battery. This solar stuff is just BS at this point in time.

July
05-22-2014, 01:08
If you want juice, bring a freaking battery. This solar stuff is just BS at this point in time.


Like or not. You are just disqualified, any further dialouge, you are sloppy.

jj2044
05-22-2014, 01:28
I like it, then we can use the power from the solar panels and make a 2189 mile electric walkway like at the airport. You could just stand there and watch the miles roll by..... Man just think about it, 2100 miles and never break a sweat !! maybe we can replace the shelters with Holiday INN's or something with a Starbucks!!!! also need either ihop or waffle house (for the poor hikers), I like a good breakfast!!!! maybe they can set up cameras like at Six Flags so when you are going down hill on the electric walkway you can get a shot of yourself and show all your friends how hardcore you are, charge a small fee.......... man the endless possibilities to completely stupid ideas !!!!!

ChinMusic
05-22-2014, 04:25
Like or not. You are just disqualified, any further dialouge, you are sloppy.
Translation aisle 7 please.

I am a realist. I had to check if this thread was in the humor section.

chiefiepoo
05-22-2014, 05:53
Some rodent probably just chew the wires anyway.

RangerZ
05-22-2014, 06:29
Some rodent probably just chew the wires anyway.
How about just enough power to heat the privy seats?

Lone Wolf
05-22-2014, 06:40
Some rodent probably just chew the wires anyway.
or G.W. Hayduke will do some monkeywrenching

Duff
05-22-2014, 06:52
Maintenance? It seems that there is seldom resources to address basic repairs such as roofing. It would appear that maintenance is "deferred" until such time that the shelters become so dilapidated as to need replacement. It just seems a heroic assumption that solar systems would receive any type of repair/maintenance. I would also concur with the vandalism aspect. It just seems that: a) there are far too many people who would want to damage such equipment simply because it's there, and b) there is enough feeling that the backcountry is not the place for electronics that there might be an inclination to act on that belief by "disabling" solar equipment. Maybe, it has it's place in some arenas, but I would offer that suggesting solar equipment for the shelters makes a assumption about people's level of care/concern that just doesn't exist.

rocketsocks
05-22-2014, 06:58
or G.W. Hayduke will do some monkeywrenching
The ghost of Ed Abbey walks these hills lookin for injustices to correct, see's a solar panel, and a microwave antennae atop a shelter and says...eeew wha.


Prolly wouldn't be to long before some #%&? placed a bulls eye on said gadgets and filled it full of buck shot, like every other back woods road sign complete with red nose rain deer and hangie down.

...civil disobedience....perhaps?

peakbagger
05-22-2014, 07:31
Even though panels are quite cheap these days, I expect the moron factor is going make them short lived. Unfortunately, unless you want to install a battery and charge controller, the panels output is going to track with the sun. Most hikers are at shelters in the early morning or late afternoon with no one there during most of the day. So when folks want juice, the panels are tapering down. If you go the charge controller and battery route, you then have a more attractive item to steal. The FS in the Whites has solar panels at several of their off grid campground to run the fans in their outhouses and folks stole them. Almost all panels are made from glass so even if they aren't stolen, they most likely will get smashed. If it is available I expect that in the evening the batteries will be drained dry which is rough way to run a battery.

AMC has panels in the whites but they also have paid hut crew to run the systems and keep an eye on them.

rafe
05-22-2014, 07:42
IMO the panels might work at AMC style huts & tent platforms, and attended LT huts like Butler. Or at a few select AT shelters, the really grandiose ones - like Bryant Ridge, or Peters Mountain.

FarmerChef
05-22-2014, 07:50
Even though panels are quite cheap these days, I expect the moron factor is going make them short lived. Unfortunately, unless you want to install a battery and charge controller, the panels output is going to track with the sun. Most hikers are at shelters in the early morning or late afternoon with no one there during most of the day. So when folks want juice, the panels are tapering down. If you go the charge controller and battery route, you then have a more attractive item to steal. The FS in the Whites has solar panels at several of their off grid campground to run the fans in their outhouses and folks stole them. Almost all panels are made from glass so even if they aren't stolen, they most likely will get smashed. If it is available I expect that in the evening the batteries will be drained dry which is rough way to run a battery.

AMC has panels in the whites but they also have paid hut crew to run the systems and keep an eye on them.

This


IMO the panels might work at AMC style huts & tent platforms, and attended LT huts like Butler. Or at a few select AT shelters, the really grandiose ones - like Bryant Ridge, or Peters Mountain.

And This

Solar efficiency is low enough in full sun let alone in partial shade, unless of course the maintaining clubs are going to cut down more trees around the shelters to keep the panels in the sun. Tracking would require a motor, otherwise efficiency will tail off even further. And batteries and charge controllers are tempting items to cart off.

That said, you could find a way to secure all of this but with no one checking regularly (i.e. every couple of days) it's just too easy to de-secure it. And the efficiency at this time just wouldn't justify it in imho.

Gambit McCrae
05-22-2014, 08:05
If small(3x6) solar panals were fixed to the top arch of the shelters they would not get stolen, they would not have to have a full time maintainer, everything would be ooookaay. If you dont like electronics in the woods then dont use them. I dont even think that the canopy of the dense forrest would prevent attmittance of UV. Now, here are issues that i see with this:

Just like how we have brooms and shovels and grill grids at shelters now, now we have electrical components as well. Iphone chargers left behind, those long power plug ins surge protectors, extension cords.

As well we have the conern of have electricity and wiring in primitive places, being a firemans son I see an issue with possible fire issues for sure. Mouse chews through wire, sparks, fire. forest fire. "woof" goes the woods so little johnny can charge his game boy.

my 2 cents

colorado_rob
05-22-2014, 08:36
Interesting thought, and despite all the negative comments about "the pristine woods" and all that, I like it in concept.

Let's see, what percentage of us have our phones and cameras on the trail, 98% or so???? I bet it's at least mid 90's%. I carry extra batteries for my phone, easily replaceable so not an issue for myself, but lots of folks carry IPhones or droids w/o interchangeable batteries, meaning yet another reason to head into town to charge up. If there were more places to charge up on the trail, potentially less trips into a town, hence a MORE "remote and pristine experience" (given that the vast majority DO carry phones, etc). I sure heard a lot of comments about needing to get into town to charge their electronics.

So, yes the number one issue would be vandalism, but a solid metal box containing a modest storage battery with a few USB ports, along with metal conduit up to the modest sized panel bolted thoroughly to the roof might just work, at least for a lot of the shelters (plenty of sunlight on a lot of the shelters' roofs). Not a stupid idea at all, though yeah, vandalism is very prevalent along the AT, so that's the biggie of course.

rafe
05-22-2014, 08:41
Setting aside electric solar panels for charging electronics and cell phones -- solar hot water showers are already in place at one or two AT facilities, eg. Blackburn Trail Center in MD (again a "manned" facility.)

ChinMusic
05-22-2014, 08:48
iPhones do NOT require more stops in towns. It is common knowledge to carry an external battery which will charge the phone multiple times.

This solar idea for shelters is just dumb. There isn't a problem that needs fixin'.

colorado_rob
05-22-2014, 08:56
iPhones do NOT require more stops in towns. It is common knowledge to carry an external battery which will charge the phone multiple times.

This solar idea for shelters is just dumb. There isn't a problem that needs fixin'. That's your opinion, please respect others'. Calling others' ideas "dumb" is disrespectful. External charges are heavy, but sure, an option for some.

ChinMusic
05-22-2014, 09:11
That's your opinion, please respect others'. Calling others' ideas "dumb" is disrespectful. External charges are heavy, but sure, an option for some.
Well it IS my opinion that it is dumb. Please don't disrespect MY opinion. :-)

Sarcasm the elf
05-22-2014, 09:15
The other point that needs to be mentioned is that within the next 5-10 years improvements in battery technology will likely remove the need for frequent charging. So just wait a while and this will be a non-issue (This is based on an NPR tech story I heard a little while back, sorry i don't have a link)

jj2044
05-22-2014, 09:27
why don't we run water and sewer to the shelters so we can have real toilets ? I mean im sure most people would rather crap on a real toilet then in a privy ! and why wouldn't it be easier for someone carry a external charger?? they have ones now that can charge your iPhone 7 or 8 times and only weigh 1.5 to 2 pounds! like Chinmusic said its a dumb idea.

I mean if we are going to dumb ideas, I say 50 inch plasmas, direct TV (with NFL package, of course) in each shelter !!! NEVER have to miss your favorite shows or big games ever again !!!

FarmerChef
05-22-2014, 09:42
While I wouldn't necessarily use the term "dumb," the problem with this, to me, is the cost/benefit of current solar cell technology versus battery technology in this application. Given canopy cover, it just seems like the efficiency of the panel would be reduced to the point of being marginal at best. Perhaps someone with an engineering background can hop on and educate us on the feasibility of a solar application in a heavily wooded application. That would eliminate our opinions and armchair science and focus the discussion on whether or not this could realistically work or would be money poorly invested at this time.

Alleghanian Orogeny
05-22-2014, 09:51
While it at first sounds simple to say "put solar panels on shelter roofs", the devil is in the details. First, the shelter would need to receive direct sunlight for many hours daily, perhaps difficult to find routinely in the "green tunnel". Second, the roof would need to oriented to best catch the sun during the weeks leading up to and following the summer solstice (I imagine a south-southeast facing planar surface at around 20 degrees off of horizontal would be ideal, depending on latitude, of course). Third, some sort of battery storage would need to be present. Fourth, vandalism, by "hikers" and by locals, not to mention outright theft, would likely render such installations useless in very short order.

Aside from the aesthetic debate, which I am firmly on the side of "no freaking way do I want to see that", it seems the real-world practicalities and the likelihood of successful implementation are zero.

AO

Grampie
05-22-2014, 10:11
If you don't feel comfortable being in the woods, hiking on the at, without the dependance of electrical gear than you should stay out of the woods. Many folks hike each year without having to worry about charging a phone.

ChinMusic
05-22-2014, 10:15
If you don't feel comfortable being in the woods, hiking on the at, without the dependance of electrical gear than you should stay out of the woods.

This is a classic HMDH

Old Hiker
05-22-2014, 10:31
Let's see: 4 charging stations on a rainy, dark day when 12 hikers show up for an 8 space shelter.

How will you decide what is more important: my cell phone so I can get onto Facebook and update my status and/or continue Farmville 2? Your "gameboy" so you can continue you heroic exploits in single shooter world? His/her battery operated fan so he/she can stay cool at night? Her/his camera so she/he can continue to take selfies going down the Trail?

I think if you want the electronics, it's up to YOU to provide the power, i.e. external battery packs, extra batteries, turn the bloody thing off unless it's really needed.

Pedaling Fool
05-22-2014, 10:31
Cut down all the trees within a 300ft radius. Problem solved :)

Starchild
05-22-2014, 12:03
Opposing solar recharging stations does nothing to prevent or discourage electronic devices being used in the wilderness, nor does having them encourage their use.

We have always traveled with our technology, the simple compass is a electromagnetic device, actually part of a very simple motor/generator which is moved by the earth's magnetic field. We also use headlamps, we use stoves with fuel and a host of synthetic fabrics and coatings. We use technology as part of our connection with nature, it helps us and makes such a journey possible and safe for many.

The smartphones are already out there and the way to extend their usage in the back country is increasing, it is here to stay, even without cell tower service it is a valuable tool that will not go away.

There is also already a shelter that offers a solar recharging station, I believe it is in Port Clinton PA. Now not all shelter locations are ideal for solar panels but some maybe and perhaps a couple of them could be a good place to try it out, see if it provides a benefit and a added degree of safety for travelers and maintainers. If needed the panels and battery can be mounted on a pole to discourage theft, and people damaging public property is very uncool to begin with, and could poses a safety hazard to others including those who help maintain the trail or even recuse efforts.

Also very ironically the people who solar charging stations would benifit the most are ones who keep their 'devices turned off'. People who frequently use electronics will have the battery capacity that they need. It's the person who plans to leave their device off who may be fine leaving town with a 50% charge, and who's battery might be aging who can find themselves in real trouble if they need to use their phones in a emergency which over the distances required to transmit in the woods to towers can very quickly deplete a weak battery.

johnnybgood
05-22-2014, 12:12
Great idea but wrong application . I for one say carry your own solar pack .

Gambit McCrae
05-22-2014, 12:18
quit using the word dumb, it makes you look dumb.

flemdawg1
05-22-2014, 13:43
I'm surprised someone hasn't suggested that the fed gum'mint step in and provide the power. After all, it's a Nat'l Trail, right? <sarcasm>


I'm seeing this turing into 3 distinct groups:
1. The under 30 crowd going, "Sure I'd love to charge my phone."
2. The Over 50 yelling, "You don't need your danged technology."
3. The skeptics citing all the technical issues that a solar power set would have to overcome.

All 3 have valid points. No I don't need my phone, but I use it as my camera, to check in with my family, as a music player, to check the weather, twice as a GPS when I wandered off the trail, and as an ereader. I leave it OFF most of the time, to preserve the battery. Am I addicted? No. Do I enjoy mine, yes.

How do I feel about a solar power station? I wouldn't mind seeing or using one. I'd rank it somewhere on shelter amenity list between privy and hot shower. 5th or 6th on the list.

Sarcasm the elf
05-22-2014, 14:18
I'm seeing this turing into 3 distinct groups:
1. The under 30 crowd going, "Sure I'd love to charge my phone."
2. The Over 50 yelling, "You don't need your danged technology."
3. The skeptics citing all the technical issues that a solar power set would have to overcome.

All 3 have valid points. No I don't need my phone, but I use it as my camera, to check in with my family, as a music player, to check the weather, twice as a GPS when I wandered off the trail, and as an ereader. I leave it OFF most of the time, to preserve the battery. Am I addicted? No. Do I enjoy mine, yes.

How do I feel about a solar power station? I wouldn't mind seeing or using one. I'd rank it somewhere on shelter amenity list between privy and hot shower. 5th or 6th on the list.

Here we are having a good bit of fun trolling eachother and you have to come in and ruin it by posting something rational. Not allowed.:D

Odd Man Out
05-22-2014, 16:00
Here we are having a good bit of fun trolling eachother and you have to come in and ruin it by posting something rational. Not allowed.:D

I click the Like Button:

27098

Nooga
05-23-2014, 09:11
Oppose solar panels. To me hiking is about being self sufficient. If you want / need electronic equipment, it is up to you to plan accordingly.

RCBear
05-25-2014, 13:02
Shelters are meant to keep people that either can't, or don't want, to bring their own. They are meant to keep the rain off people's heads. People that don't tent or hammock (I can't understand why but whatever), are provided a roof by others out of courtesy. Now people are talking about amenities. Sorry but if I walked up and saw someone using an electric skillet or charging their laptop at one, I would probably have to call them out as a pansy ass. I usually mind my own business but that would be tough to keep my mouth shut over :)

RCBear
05-25-2014, 13:03
*Meant to keep people out of the rain* is what it should have read.

Ricky&Jack
05-25-2014, 14:13
no offense. I like other hikers. But If I see a shelter with a solar panel, and nobody looking.... im stealing that ***** and pawning it for re-supply money.

ChinMusic
05-25-2014, 14:18
no offense. I like other hikers. But If I see a shelter with a solar panel, and nobody looking.... im stealing that ***** and pawning it for re-supply money.

I hope that was all a joke.

Ricky&Jack
05-25-2014, 14:20
I hope that was all a joke.

it was.

Im assuming any shelter solar unit would be very big. and not one of those tiny ones you can carry on your backpack. :)

Sly
05-25-2014, 15:10
ALDHA donated some money to relocate a pavilion for hikers and install a solar charger in Waynesboro. If I'm not mistaken while the pavilion and charger have been operational it was dedicated yesterday. I don't have an specifics but the charger cost several hundred or more to purchase and install.

Ricky&Jack
05-25-2014, 15:25
only hundreds? i woulda thought thousands. not bad

Siarl
05-25-2014, 18:48
Solar panels are also prone to breakage and misuse and in need of repair. IMO it's not necessary and it opens up more room for those already carrying around entitlement issues. Leave the 'have it your way' at the Burger King counter.

peakbagger
05-25-2014, 19:19
Skip the battery and for about $250 you can put in a 10 Amp solar charger. The price of solar has dropped considerably.

Sly
05-25-2014, 23:39
Solar panels are also prone to breakage and misuse and in need of repair.

They're making roads with solar panels (http://thinkprogress.org/climate/2014/05/14/3437846/solar-powered-roads/).

LIhikers
05-25-2014, 23:59
Earlier someone commented that we already bring technology into the outdoors and mentioned stoves with fuel, synthetic fabrics, and maybe a few other things.
That's all true, but we bring it for ourselves, we don't expect other people to provide it for us. We also carry tents, sleeping bags and clothes appropriate for the season and don't expect others to provide them for us either. I have no problem if anyone wants to have a certain technology with them, just don't ask me to provide it so that your vacation is enhanced.

Wise Old Owl
05-26-2014, 00:04
To me I embrace this progressive thought - how can we as a group make it happen?

ok FYI I have the math .. the installation values - I can find product source and do the work - I do not have the $$$ and the networking yet - that is fixable. I can install a charging system with anti theft.

ChinMusic
05-26-2014, 00:13
Progressive thought?????

lol

Wise Old Owl
05-26-2014, 00:24
Progressive thought?????

lol

We don't know each other and I cannot fix the past - I can repair the future. I would be very happy to find a test shelter and put this together.

ChinMusic
05-26-2014, 01:09
We don't know each other and I cannot fix the past - I can repair the future. I would be very happy to find a test shelter and put this together.
That is what I think is funny. That this is somehow "progress" or "fixing" something. There is nothing remotely broken in this regard.

IMO the whole idea of a solar charging station at shelters is daft.

moytoy
05-26-2014, 04:06
If I got this straight. This is a serious discussion about solar panels installed in and around something called the green tunnel. Dumb might not be the exact right word to use bit I think ignorant might fit.

rocketsocks
05-26-2014, 07:11
I'd likely bring my 7oz. Rechargeable battery even if shelters had solar panels, not relying on them kinda like bringing a tent on a hike in the event there was no room in a shelter. Did I say it only weighs 7oz.

What ever happened to wooden ships and iron Men?

Starchild
05-26-2014, 07:25
Earlier someone commented that we already bring technology into the outdoors and mentioned stoves with fuel, synthetic fabrics, and maybe a few other things.
That's all true, but we bring it for ourselves, we don't expect other people to provide it for us. We also carry tents, sleeping bags and clothes appropriate for the season and don't expect others to provide them for us either. I have no problem if anyone wants to have a certain technology with them, just don't ask me to provide it so that your vacation is enhanced.

That was me :D

I take issue with
we don't expect other people to provide it for us. part of your statement.

I fell many hikers want to believe it's true what you stated, that they carry everything with them, there are certain things that contradict this. Besides shelters we use trails and signs build and maintained by others (some of the placement of things done by GOS technology - yes GPS technology provided by others to enhance your vacation that you expect to be there for you and your traveling pleasure). These trails and signs are for the general safety, traveling ease and to also minimize impact by concentrating them to hopefully a durable surface.

Some have also opined that backpacking is a form of self sufficiency, though there is a limited form of self sufficiency involved, most of backpacking is that of a interdependent community that supports our journey into the wilderness. We just obtain supplies and electrical power from somewhere that we carry till they are depleted then find a place where we can obtain more supplies and recharge.

There is also a bigger picture to see. The shelter system is set up to concentrate damage to preserve other areas from getting trampled. By making the shelters more attractive you potentially minimize the damage to other areas. Now there is a balance point of how 'nice' we can make the shelters and how nice we should make the shelters. There is also the question of cost, maintenance and funding.

Another issue is the technological alternatives to recharging that already exist, in particular self carried thermoelectric charging devices that require fire to generate power (that are getting better). As part of LNT we want to minimize campfire impacts but if people start carrying these power generation devices we may see a lot more campfires, and potentially, a lot more stripped of dead and down (and living) wood to make power.

So I am not saying build a recharge station at every shelter, but, hopefully with some promotional funding by perhaps solar power companies, for them to donate the equipment needed to try it out at a couple of shelters in areas where they panels would receive enough sun to be practical. More of a test then a commitment.

Wise Old Owl
05-26-2014, 12:19
If I got this straight. This is a serious discussion about solar panels installed in and around something called the green tunnel. Dumb might not be the exact right word to use bit I think ignorant might fit.


Not all shelters are under a canopy and again panels can operate under some cover as they work with reflected light. If you have played with toys as example Solio Petal and other small panels I too would have made the above statement. Not all panels are the same...

One or two full size panels on the roof, into a battery in a steel box, bolted into the ceiling, with a regulator and 12volt to multiple USB output in an outdoor outlet box is what we are talking out here. Seems practical and simple enough.

Lets try to keep the negativity to a minimum here.

ChinMusic
05-26-2014, 12:44
Lets try to keep the negativity to a minimum here.

How about we keep the silliness to a minimum here.

Lone Wolf
05-26-2014, 14:08
How about we keep the silliness to a minimum here.

really. the whole idea of solar panels on a shelter are beyond silly. foolishness

Sly
05-26-2014, 14:21
IMO the whole idea of a solar charging station at shelters is daft.

Is it also daft that there were hundreds of hikers looking for a outlet at Trail Days? Electronics and rechargeables are here, and on the trail, to stay. Charging stations to follow.

ChinMusic
05-26-2014, 14:27
Is it also daft that there were hundreds of hikers looking for a outlet at Trail Days?

I know Damascus doesn't have AT&T but it is a town with electricity. Electricity wasn't brought to town to satisfy just hikers.

Your point falls flat.

Sly
05-26-2014, 14:37
Many hostels and businesses are going out of their way to provide charging stations. One hiker pavilion and some Huts have solar chargers, others (not all) will follow.

We could always start with you don't need a cell phone on a thru-hike, but....

Wise Old Owl
05-26-2014, 14:40
How about we keep the silliness to a minimum here.

Wow. Looks like CM you would argue with Tom Edison about the benefits of whale Oil Lamps.

ChinMusic
05-26-2014, 14:54
Many hostels and businesses are going out of their way to provide charging stations.

These places are in BUSINESS. They are trying to attract customers. Shelters are NOT a business.

It would be truly sad to see a club waste its time and resources on such an endeavor.

ChinMusic
05-26-2014, 14:56
Wow. Looks like CM you would argue with Tom Edison about the benefits of whale Oil Lamps.

Tesla DID argue, and won.

Again, these are business decisions. Why are you conflating a business decision with a shelter. Now, if you want to have some coin-based operation to raise money for your club..........go for it.

WingedMonkey
05-26-2014, 14:58
Charging stations are about as silly as hiker feeds.

Neither adds the the AT experience.

Wise Old Owl
05-26-2014, 15:12
Remote charging stations don't cost a lot. A 2 hour charge is best served near the shelters. It's not modern tech to put one together, Its as small as an ammo box. You can choose to use it or not. I don't see it a business-yet, just as a convenience. I have the know how to put it together, and make it work in the winter.


OK I am out - gone hiking see ya!

Lone Wolf
05-26-2014, 15:15
i'm willin' to bet ATC memberships would drop off sharply if they allowed this foolishness

Teacher & Snacktime
05-26-2014, 15:25
I know I shouldn't bring it up, but since this seems to be a heated, often-unrealistic hot topic, I can't resist asking:


How about someone installing panels for hikers to charge phones outside of Joe-to-Go?

(sorry, couldn't resist)

Sly
05-26-2014, 15:29
Tesla DID argue, and won.

Again, these are business decisions. Why are you conflating a business decision with a shelter. Now, if you want to have some coin-based operation to raise money for your club..........go for it.

Coin operated chargers or showers at a remote shelter? Better hook up a remote cam also, instant vandalism.

ChinMusic
05-26-2014, 15:32
Coin operated chargers or showers at a remote shelter? Better hook up a remote cam also, instant vandalism.

Did I really need to use blue font?

Sly
05-26-2014, 15:33
i'm willin' to bet ATC memberships would drop off sharply if they allowed this foolishness

The ATC doesn't always have final decisions. I doubt the AMC's membership has dropped since they added solar panels and wind generators.

Astro
05-26-2014, 15:33
Coin operated chargers or showers at a remote shelter? Better hook up a remote cam also, instant vandalism.

That is the problem with real world economics, those unintentional side effects.

Sly
05-26-2014, 15:50
Charging stations are about as silly as hiker feeds.

Neither adds the the AT experience.

Except that one of the first things out of a thru-hikers mouth is how awesome the trail magic was.

Charging stations are mostly a convenience, but may help with some hikers winging their spent batteries into the woods. Picnic tables aren't high on the list of "the AT experience" but I'm sure glad most shlters had them.

Pedaling Fool
05-26-2014, 16:40
Solar panels on shelters. It does beg the question: When does it stop? (Asking for technology to be installed on the trail.)

I'm no Luddite, but I don't really want to see much build up around the trail; some of it I know is unavoidable, but solar panels are very avoidable. Just because people decide to bring their gadgets on the trail in no way should we be asking for solar panels -- that's a very slippery slope.

In an earlier post I made a tongue-in-cheek comment about cutting down trees in a 300ft radius; maybe you won't have to cut down trees in that big of an area, but you will have to cut some down, not just for access to the sun, but to prevent unnecessary damage.

I can't believe people are even being serious about this...

Sly
05-26-2014, 17:19
Solar panels on shelters. It does beg the question: When does it stop? (Asking for technology to be installed on the trail.)

I'm no Luddite, but I don't really want to see much build up around the trail; some of it I know is unavoidable, but solar panels are very avoidable. Just because people decide to bring their gadgets on the trail in no way should we be asking for solar panels -- that's a very slippery slope.

In an earlier post I made a tongue-in-cheek comment about cutting down trees in a 300ft radius; maybe you won't have to cut down trees in that big of an area, but you will have to cut some down, not just for access to the sun, but to prevent unnecessary damage.

I can't believe people are even being serious about this...

The only person mentioning cutting trees has been you. Most would consider that a no-no. However it stands to reason some shelters have great exposure, and perhaps proper roof pitch. It would be no more upsetting than having a register.

ELW
05-26-2014, 18:10
Interesting thread. I see this as more of a thought exercise and not a debate about something that actually might happen anytime soon. The question is, if you could upgrade shelters somehow, how would you do it? I'd prefer not to upgrade them with solar power (although I love solar technology and strongly support photovoltaics in homes, businesses, etc). Reason - having ready electricity would encourage people to do more than just charging. Some would bring boom-boxes, mini-TVs, Ipods with speaker attachments, and whatever, and turn the shelter into a big noisy party. Personally I'd rather get to sleep when it gets dark, or perhaps enjoy a conversation without amplified music.

What improvements to a shelter would be nice? Perhaps a handle-operated water pump connected to a shower. Would be nice to be able to wash up at a shelter.

SunnyWalker
05-26-2014, 18:24
I am 61 years old. I think "solar stations" will come due to demand from hikers nowadays. This is due to younger folk seemingly (to me) total reliance on electronic devices. It could be done. The panels could be placed above the forest canopy. Wired to the shelters. One might not even notice them. We do have to remember that shelters themselves were probably built due to hikr demand. I don't see them getting stolen if they were built as I mentioned. The thing I see is they would be abused and always out of power.

ChinMusic
05-26-2014, 18:25
What improvements to a shelter would be nice? Since not everyone is comfortable sleeping with their food, bear boxes would save the lives of some bears.

Cables have been defeated by bears leading to their demise.

Lone Wolf
05-26-2014, 18:38
bear boxes become trash cans real fast. but that's what caretakers are for

WingedMonkey
05-26-2014, 20:55
Except that one of the first things out of a thru-hikers mouth is how awesome the trail magic was.

There you go confusing magic with feeds.
:p

Picnic tables aren't high on the list of "the AT experience" but I'm sure glad most shlters had them.

Most shelter picnic tables are almost as nasty as shelter privies. And probably spread as much Norovirus and other miscellaneous ills. Some improvements are not beneficial to the experience.

Starchild
05-26-2014, 21:14
There you go confusing magic with feeds.
:p

Please define the difference :D



Most shelter picnic tables are almost as nasty as shelter privies.

Hiking very much appreciate the tables, they rock!!!. Privies are appreciated at times but not on the major list for thankfulness - let's be real they are and always will be a ****hole.


And probably spread as much Norovirus and other miscellaneous ills. Some improvements are not beneficial to the experience.

If we really want to combat the Noravirus we need to eliminate the shelters and have dispersed camping.. Just like solar powered shelters I would be willing to have such a section as a trial, if Nora can;t get thru that it may be a great suggestion.

Wise Old Owl
05-26-2014, 21:35
I know I shouldn't bring it up, but since this seems to be a heated, often-unrealistic hot topic, I can't resist asking:


How about someone installing panels for hikers to charge phones outside of Joe-to-Go?

(sorry, couldn't resist)

That's OK I found it funny and interesting.


I am 61 years old. I think "solar stations" will come due to demand from hikers nowadays. This is due to younger folk seemingly (to me) total reliance on electronic devices. It could be done. The panels could be placed above the forest canopy. Wired to the shelters. One might not even notice them. We do have to remember that shelters themselves were probably built due to hikr demand. I don't see them getting stolen if they were built as I mentioned. The thing I see is they would be abused and always out of power.

To answer a post or two above - when hiking the state park there is no end to people hiking, biking, jogging and other vocations. In the last 10 years we have gone from a few with earphones to almost everyone. I have met people that love their IHeart, MP3's, Pandora etc... when the 3-4g disappears they all have backup music in the phone. I down load lots of informative discussion shows or podcasts. So yes I have watched some TV shows on my phone but that is a personal thing that I would not share in public. I would not worry about boomboxes or amps as they are too power hungry for the trail there are mini one's available but they are not loud - to be loud they need lots of DC and require a lot of charge to be good. If someone wants to lug one of those up the trail its on them... I have one from Goal Zero and I like it - its very helpful in the car or around the house - and it will stay there.

Odd Man Out
05-26-2014, 23:56
I know I shouldn't bring it up, but since this seems to be a heated, often-unrealistic hot topic, I can't resist asking:


How about someone installing panels for hikers to charge phones outside of Joe-to-Go?

(sorry, couldn't resist)

good one ----

July
05-27-2014, 00:05
Translation aisle 7 please.

I am a realist. I had to check if this thread was in the humor section.
Hey Fat Troll,


I'm watchin you...

July
05-27-2014, 01:39
Want to meet you, can you cpme to Damascus?

fiddlehead
05-27-2014, 05:30
I want to guess that it was in '93 when I saw my first cell phone on the trail.
It was in GA when my brother started his thru and I hiked the first state with him.
Anyway, this lady had a cell phone and hikers around her said she was calling into the ATC complaining about every little thing.
I remember telling her: "That thing better not ring while I'm around"
That was before I opened my mind a bit.

Now, when I go in the woods, I am on call 24/7 and at least check for texts everyday.
Times, they are a-changin!

88BlueGT
05-28-2014, 11:31
I have never witnessed so many closed-minded individuals in one place.... ever. It's kind of ironic how it's perfectly acceptable for people to drool over new technology in regards to clothing, cookware, tents, water filtration systems, etc. but the first sign of an ELECTRONIC (which is far more useful then a newly designed pot) everyone loses their minds. It's pretty ridiculous to me. I completely understand that no one wants to see the trail turned into something anything other than what it is today (an escape, etc.) but I think there are some people on here that really need to come to terms with how the world is evolving around us. HIKERS USE ELECTRONICS ON THE TRAIL. Whether you like it or not, cell phones, digital cameras, GPS devices, Ipod, etc. ARE NOT GOING AWAY.

http://giphy.com/gifs/SHEoz82qdKfBK

Just saying...

ChinMusic
05-28-2014, 11:39
I have never witnessed so many closed-minded individuals in one place.... ever. It's kind of ironic how it's perfectly acceptable for people to drool over new technology in regards to clothing, cookware, tents, water filtration systems, etc. but the first sign of an ELECTRONIC (which is far more useful then a newly designed pot) everyone loses their minds. It's pretty ridiculous to me. I completely understand that no one wants to see the trail turned into something anything other than what it is today (an escape, etc.) but I think there are some people on here that really need to come to terms with how the world is evolving around us. HIKERS USE ELECTRONICS ON THE TRAIL. Whether you like it or not, cell phones, digital cameras, GPS devices, Ipod, etc. ARE NOT GOING AWAY.

http://giphy.com/gifs/SHEoz82qdKfBK

Just saying...

I love electonics and prob use more than 90% of fellow hikers. That said, bring your OWN juice. What next, propane tanks for cooking?

Just saying...

Pedaling Fool
05-28-2014, 11:41
I have never witnessed so many closed-minded individuals in one place.... ever. It's kind of ironic how it's perfectly acceptable for people to drool over new technology in regards to clothing, cookware, tents, water filtration systems, etc. but the first sign of an ELECTRONIC (which is far more useful then a newly designed pot) everyone loses their minds. It's pretty ridiculous to me. I completely understand that no one wants to see the trail turned into something anything other than what it is today (an escape, etc.) but I think there are some people on here that really need to come to terms with how the world is evolving around us. HIKERS USE ELECTRONICS ON THE TRAIL. Whether you like it or not, cell phones, digital cameras, GPS devices, Ipod, etc. ARE NOT GOING AWAY.

http://giphy.com/gifs/SHEoz82qdKfBK

Just saying...Yes, they do use electronics, but that's not really the point of us "closed-minded individuals".

Other questions, such as funding and damage and theft were brought up, those are very valid questions. Yes you could put it on a pole (as pointed out in another thread), and that will probably reduce incidents of theft and damage, but that ain't cheap.

But my main point is... Where does it stop? Everyone seems to indicate that solar panels would be the end all, be all and no other changes, but that's not the case. What about putting up wind turbines at shelters? Should we do that? What about a large battery compartment to store the electricity? Slippery slope.

88BlueGT
05-28-2014, 11:44
Yes, they do use electronics, but that's not really the point of us "closed-minded individuals".

Other questions, such as funding and damage and theft were brought up, those are very valid questions. Yes you could put it on a pole (as pointed out in another thread), and that will probably reduce incidents of theft and damage, but that ain't cheap.

But my main point is... Where does it stop? Everyone seems to indicate that solar panels would be the end all, be all and no other changes, but that's not the case. What about putting up wind turbines at shelters? Should we do that? What about a large battery compartment to store the electricity? Slippery slope.

Trust me; I do see where you all are coming from. However, with time... I completely expect the trail to keep up with demands of hikers. I'm not exactly FOR IT but if it happened; I would understand why.

Pedaling Fool
05-28-2014, 11:51
Yeah, but where does it stop? Placing solar panels on shelters then opens the door to wind turbines and other technologies; not to mention road access.

Personally I think the technologies, like battery power will make solar panels obsolete, but the precedent would be far more damaging. Until things like improved battery technology becomes available, I guess we will all just have to rough it:D

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 12:12
For the most part the problem of needing additional power has already been solved...battery storage. For $35 bucks, 10,000 mAh, 8.5 oz. you can have all the power you want, and you don't have to wait and rely on a solar panel, you can charge as you stroll down the lane. The problem is not the lack of power, the problem is folks not wanting to carry an additional 8oz at the expense of others.


here's one I've been using

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009USAJCC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=ak9600-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399373&creativeASIN=B009USAJCC

I could watch about 10 full feature movies, listen to about 400 hours of tunes and audio books, check mail daily, post blog or what have you and play Mahjong till my eyes bleed.


...and still offer a hiker some juice for the trail.

jimmyjam
05-28-2014, 12:27
For the most part the problem of needing additional power has already been solved...battery storage. For $35 bucks, 10,000 mAh, 8.5 oz. you can have all the power you want, and you don't have to wait and rely on a solar panel, you can charge as you stroll down the lane. The problem is not the lack of power, the problem is folks not wanting to carry an additional 8oz at the expense of others.


here's one I've been using

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009USAJCC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=ak9600-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399373&creativeASIN=B009USAJCC

I could watch about 10 full feature movies, listen to about 400 hours of tunes and audio books, check mail daily, post blog or what have you and play Mahjong till my eyes bleed.

Hey RS, what's that puppy weigh?

CarlZ993
05-28-2014, 12:29
I vote we connect the shelters with Western Union Telegraph... How's your Morse code?:) How about original Morse instead of International....
Cool! I did Morse Code in the Army way back in the day. .-.

Most shelters that I saw had inadequate exposure to the sun to effectively utilize solar power. Personally, I don't really care one way or another if solar panels are added to shelters. I used my phone sparingly & carried an extra battery (no I-Phone for me). I don't think I ever ran out of juice completely. I do expect the trend for further & further electronic invasion into the hiking world. I choose other things to get upset about. Like the *#@% weather. :)

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 12:30
Hey RS, what's that puppy weigh?
8.5 oz, 1/2 pound, two quarter lb. cheese burgers with out the fixins...and bread...before cooking, or one mornings constitutional.:D

ChinMusic
05-28-2014, 12:33
For the most part the problem of needing additional power has already been solved...battery storage. For $35 bucks, 10,000 mAh, 8.5 oz. you can have all the power you want, and you don't have to wait and rely on a solar panel, you can charge as you stroll down the lane. The problem is not the lack of power, the problem is folks not wanting to carry an additional 8oz at the expense of others.



I've been trying to make this clear for 6 pages. Solar panels on shelters is like looking for a solution when there is no problem.

Carry your OWN FREAKING juice.

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 12:41
I've been trying to make this clear for 6 pages. Solar panels on shelters is like looking for a solution when there is no problem.

Carry your OWN FREAKING juice.Well there's the problem, WB protocol dictates no less that 17 pages before resolution begins to evolve.

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 12:42
I choose other things to get upset about. Like the *#@% weather. :)that's freakin hilarious, I love it.:D

moytoy
05-28-2014, 12:44
here's one I've been using

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B009USAJCC/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=ak9600-20&linkCode=as2&camp=217145&creative=399373&creativeASIN=B009USAJCC

I could watch about 10 full feature movies, listen to about 400 hours of tunes and audio books, check mail daily, post blog or what have you and play Mahjong till my eyes bleed.


...and still offer a hiker some juice for the trail.
Do you carry the wall wart that goes with it or are you relying on a usb connection at a town visit to charge the charger?

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 12:56
Do you carry the wall wart that goes with it or are you relying on a usb connection at a town visit to charge the charger?
Well, the thing last so long, I haven't needed to charge it on the trail:eek:

Truth be told, just got it this past winter and haven't brought it on the trail yet, but have used it quite a bit. But yes I would bring the high out put charger 1 to 2 Mah. so yes there is a weight penalty there as well...bout an oz maybe 1 1/2.

moytoy
05-28-2014, 13:40
Well, the thing last so long, I haven't needed to charge it on the trail:eek:

Truth be told, just got it this past winter and haven't brought it on the trail yet, but have used it quite a bit. But yes I would bring the high out put charger 1 to 2 Mah. so yes there is a weight penalty there as well...bout an oz maybe 1 1/2.

Cool ... BTW no negative thought about the charger at all here. The other alternative is the hydrogen charger and it's about the same weight for the same charging capacity. My biggest challenge is keeping my amateur radio charged. It takes 12 volts and chargers for it are heavier.
As far as the solar charging stations at the shelters goes. Like CM says it's just a lot of silliness. Too much to go wrong with a solar charger in the boonies and nobody to maintain it. It's not going to happen!

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 14:09
Cool ... BTW no negative thought about the charger at all here. The other alternative is the hydrogen charger and it's about the same weight for the same charging capacity. My biggest challenge is keeping my amateur radio charged. It takes 12 volts and chargers for it are heavier.
As far as the solar charging stations at the shelters goes. Like CM says it's just a lot of silliness. Too much to go wrong with a solar charger in the boonies and nobody to maintain it. It's not going to happen!
ah, see your call sign now, that's cool, hope to get into that one day. Don't know about the voltage requirements or output and how it relates, only have a basic understanding of that kinda stuff.

88BlueGT
05-28-2014, 14:37
This is what I use at home and has actually proven to be quite useful at times. I DID buy it for extended backpacking trips in the Adirodaks (hides head) but I haven't used it yet. I like it and worth the money to keep in my pack, home, survival kit, whatever.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008187COU/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

Wise Old Owl
05-28-2014, 15:03
I've been trying to make this clear for 6 pages. Solar panels on shelters is like looking for a solution when there is no problem.

Carry your OWN FREAKING juice.

funny... when you yell into a room and no one takes notice... I have been there too. If the thread was labeled "What improvements would you like to see on the trail?" would that have been better... Remember those old posts about paving the trail for handicapped people...ADA service dogs, for stressed out hikers. reintroduce Eastern Cougars to the trail. Emergency 911 call boxes every 6/10'ths of a mile... Relax nobody is going to do it. I find the negativity disturbing as one post said in this thread, But good intentions rarely follow thru. It's just another fun discussion and CM - you are taking this way to personally.

RS will that power a Presto Burger? I gotta get me one... wait did you just buy that battery?

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 15:11
RS will that power a Presto Burger? I gotta get me one... wait did you just buy that battery?I don't know about a presto burger, but it'll cook the hell out of an easy bake oven.:D

B-day gift card, the gift that keeps giving...got it a couple months ago.

Wise Old Owl
05-28-2014, 15:12
I don't know about a presto burger, but it'll cook the hell out of an easy bake oven.:D

B-day gift card, the gift that keeps giving...got it a couple months ago.

good for you! great to hear... so when are you hiking the trail next

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?100064-What-will-the-trail-of-future-look-like&highlight=paving+handicapped

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 15:16
This is what I use at home and has actually proven to be quite useful at times. I DID buy it for extended backpacking trips in the Adirodaks (hides head) but I haven't used it yet. I like it and worth the money to keep in my pack, home, survival kit, whatever.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008187COU/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1


Here's the one that I struggled with for a few years, like someone in this thread mentioned, I mostly charge it via AC and just used it as a storage device, not so much a solar charger...though it do work. here nor there though, were both carrying our own juice, kudos!

http://opteka.com/solarcharger.aspx

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 15:21
good for you! great to hear... so when are you hiking the trail next

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?100064-What-will-the-trail-of-future-look-like&highlight=paving+handicapped

I'm in a holding pattern, waitin for a doctor to sign off on a procedure. hernia don't cha know...ugh! just in time for the hot weather.

yeah I took your advice and pulled the pin on the anker, works darn good, tons of juice. plenty for my little three four day hikes.

Wise Old Owl
05-28-2014, 15:50
Sorry to hear about the holding... we should be Pming here.

Yea I have considered up grading and giving the old one to the wife. - she would have use for it.

More Power for the trail....mmmmmmmm.
27161:banana

Starchild
05-28-2014, 16:06
Ya know WiFi would be great at the shelters also, no need for each of us to use expensive data plans, just supply the shelter with satellite internet which would be powered by the solar/battery system, perhaps a touch screen interface also, attached to the shelter wall with one way screws to deter theft, where hikers could check email and the weather, check their portfolio, or just Skype away talking to friends and family, catch up on Netflix, have a shelter movie night, or just order pizza online.

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 16:16
Sorry to hear about the holding... we should be Pming here.

Yea I have considered up grading and giving the old one to the wife. - she would have use for it.

More Power for the trail....mmmmmmmm.
27161:banana
you started it :D

88BlueGT
05-28-2014, 16:17
Here's the one that I struggled with for a few years, like someone in this thread mentioned, I mostly charge it via AC and just used it as a storage device, not so much a solar charger...though it do work. here nor there though, were both carrying our own juice, kudos!

http://opteka.com/solarcharger.aspx

Looks pretty similar to mine. As you said, I use it more for battery storage than for actual "solar charging". It gets great reviews but it doesn't work well for me. I have left it sitting on my dash for 2-3 days in the blazing sun and only had it charge 1/2 way. Couldn't imagine how long it would take if I were hiking with this thing. A thru may be in order for a full charge :cool:

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 16:24
Crazy when you think about it really, most of us carry enough compute power to task a rocket to the moon, have McDee's delivered, and land that puppy on a dime, all from our tents on trail....How much power is enough?

rocketsocks
05-28-2014, 16:29
Looks pretty similar to mine. As you said, I use it more for battery storage than for actual "solar charging". It gets great reviews but it doesn't work well for me. I have left it sitting on my dash for 2-3 days in the blazing sun and only had it charge 1/2 way. Couldn't imagine how long it would take if I were hiking with this thing. A thru may be in order for a full charge :cool:
yep, mine did eventually shut down(reached full power) but as I recall it took way longer than was advertised....way to many variables for anything but finicky foolin around. Cool thing to have though!

ChinMusic
05-28-2014, 17:27
Ya know WiFi would be great at the shelters also, no need for each of us to use expensive data plans, just supply the shelter with satellite internet which would be powered by the solar/battery system, perhaps a touch screen interface also, attached to the shelter wall with one way screws to deter theft, where hikers could check email and the weather, check their portfolio, or just Skype away talking to friends and family, catch up on Netflix, have a shelter movie night, or just order pizza online.

Don't forget the massage tables.......

Teacher & Snacktime
05-28-2014, 17:56
Battery-operated massage tables? Hmmm.....

Wise Old Owl
05-28-2014, 19:58
This is what I use at home and has actually proven to be quite useful at times. I DID buy it for extended backpacking trips in the Adirodaks (hides head) but I haven't used it yet. I like it and worth the money to keep in my pack, home, survival kit, whatever.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B008187COU/ref=oh_details_o03_s00_i00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

FYI the collector is too small and their are lots of China Made knock offs (Harbor Freights) which clearly doesn't work as they forgot the A/C charger. So do us a review in electronics - based on your real world tests. I am interested in what you have to say about this as one is parked on the desk from Harbor Freight. (My dad bought it and gave up) Were you able to get phone or GPS to charge - 2,3, & 4 etc?

Wise Old Owl
05-28-2014, 20:08
Battery-operated massage tables? Hmmm.....

Oh - don't forget the 12volt beer coolers....

ChinMusic
05-28-2014, 20:31
Oh - don't forget the 12volt beer coolers....
Vending machines with Diet Coke.

88BlueGT
05-28-2014, 23:06
FYI the collector is too small and their are lots of China Made knock offs (Harbor Freights) which clearly doesn't work as they forgot the A/C charger. So do us a review in electronics - based on your real world tests. I am interested in what you have to say about this as one is parked on the desk from Harbor Freight. (My dad bought it and gave up) Were you able to get phone or GPS to charge - 2,3, & 4 etc?


It charges just fine (when plugged in) and charges quite quickly... I was actually pretty impressed. Also, it charges my cell phone about as quick as a regular charger would plugged into the wall. As stated, the only real problem I have is charging it in the sun. HOWEVER, I will state that I did not completely follow the instructions and that may be a reason why it is not charging properly. In the instructions it states that it must be charged completely and drained completely. Of course; I did not do this so maybe it was user error as to why it's now not functioning the way it should. I'll be away for the weekend; 75 and sunny where I am going. I would be more than happy to run a few tests if you're interested (charging time, etc.).

Wise Old Owl
05-28-2014, 23:48
Hey that's ok we can mount it to the roof of the shelter and provide a remote plug in at eye level... Progress will be revealed!

Teacher & Snacktime
05-29-2014, 00:50
Vending machines with Diet Coke.

And you saw no benefit to the idea! Don't you feel silly now!

Starchild
05-29-2014, 07:18
And you saw no benefit to the idea! Don't you feel silly now!

OK, if we add diet coke vending machines we get CM on board. Starting to see how congress works now.

ChinMusic
05-29-2014, 10:18
OK, if we add diet coke vending machines we get CM on board. Starting to see how congress works now.
I guess a good earmark can make anyone flip.

Pedaling Fool
05-29-2014, 11:09
Ya know WiFi would be great at the shelters also, no need for each of us to use expensive data plans, just supply the shelter with satellite internet which would be powered by the solar/battery system, perhaps a touch screen interface also, attached to the shelter wall with one way screws to deter theft, where hikers could check email and the weather, check their portfolio, or just Skype away talking to friends and family, catch up on Netflix, have a shelter movie night, or just order pizza online.OK, now you're just being silly...right:confused:

Astro
05-29-2014, 11:19
Vending machines with Diet Coke.

Now we are getting to the good stuff! :)

Starchild
05-29-2014, 13:56
Now we are getting to the good stuff! :)

Slippery slopes can be fun :)

Starchild
05-29-2014, 13:57
OK, now you're just being silly...right:confused:

should have added:
;)

July
05-29-2014, 16:43
Hey, more options... http://appalachiantrail.com/20140529/clean-energy-conference-june-4-6-lake-placid/

wnderer
05-29-2014, 18:55
Why not just carry one of these things if you're desperate for a charger?

27194

http://www.biolitestove.com/products/campstove/

rocketsocks
05-29-2014, 20:03
Why not just carry one of these things if you're desperate for a charger?

27194

http://www.biolitestove.com/products/campstove/
cool, something to do tonight27196

Tuckahoe
05-29-2014, 21:57
Why not just carry one of these things if you're desperate for a charger?

27194

http://www.biolitestove.com/products/campstove/

Cause it's too heavy, too much trouble, and doesnt work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58b8Acjwtl4&amp;sns=em

Ender
05-30-2014, 11:20
That cup charger thingy in the video looks pretty slick. And a lot lighter than the biolite stove.

July
05-31-2014, 03:54
Cause it's too heavy, too much trouble, and doesnt work?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58b8Acjwtl4&amp;sns=em
Interesting gear, thanks for posting.

Starchild
05-31-2014, 07:16
That cup charger thingy in the video looks pretty slick. And a lot lighter than the biolite stove.

That it does and part of the reason I think we may start seeing solar powered shelters. These thermoelectric devices are getting better and should continue to do so, also cheaper. Once they reach a certain point it may be common backpacking equipment, which means more campfires, more wood gathering and what is already common, a stripping of the forest of wood around campsites and a trampling of paths to retrieve it and a general acceleration of the deterioration of the camping and shelter sites.

While such a device can be used with a backpacking stove, the fuel requirements would just be too much as devices require hours to fully charge, too long for anything but wood as fuel.

Perhaps a isobutane fuel cell could compete as that should be much more efficient but I have not heard of such a device.

The alternative would be fire bans which no on really likes, or give the hikers a alternative way to recharge, and solar seems a good contender, and IMHO we should be looking into it's practicality now so we know what to expect if this was to go large scale. (and yes diet coke machines at these sites so we get CM's vote)

Tuckahoe
05-31-2014, 07:49
As far as stripping camp sites of potential fire wood, that is already the case. And there are already seasonal fire bans in place in many states and outright bans in others.

Personally I really do not see devices such as the cup charger becoming too common place among backpackers. They are geared towards third world countries, with preppers and survivalists latching onto their potential uses. I think you'll see one or two here and there among backpackers, but they wont be common equipment. The one thing I have learned with the younger and the tech savy crowd is that they seem to have the issue of electronic charging well in hand. And the not so tech savy folks like myself can spend the time to quickly and easily learn all there is needed to understand charging electronics on the trail.

As I have followed this thread its seems to be alot of hubbub about nothing.

Pedaling Fool
05-31-2014, 08:15
That it does and part of the reason I think we may start seeing solar powered shelters. These thermoelectric devices are getting better and should continue to do so, also cheaper. Once they reach a certain point it may be common backpacking equipment, which means more campfires, more wood gathering and what is already common, a stripping of the forest of wood around campsites and a trampling of paths to retrieve it and a general acceleration of the deterioration of the camping and shelter sites.

While such a device can be used with a backpacking stove, the fuel requirements would just be too much as devices require hours to fully charge, too long for anything but wood as fuel.

Perhaps a isobutane fuel cell could compete as that should be much more efficient but I have not heard of such a device.

The alternative would be fire bans which no on really likes, or give the hikers a alternative way to recharge, and solar seems a good contender, and IMHO we should be looking into it's practicality now so we know what to expect if this was to go large scale. (and yes diet coke machines at these sites so we get CM's vote)

When are we going to start seeing solar powered shelters?

Everyone keeps talking about the future of solar power as if it is today; it is not today. Just look across the pond, the EU has spent tons of money on solar, especially Germany and Spain. And what do they have to show for it? They had to cut subsidies to this industry among many other problems they are having. http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2012/0413/Germany-s-solar-woes-dim-the-promise-of-green-jobs


So who is going to pay for the installation of these solar panels? (And not just the installation, but the maintenance, both corrective and preventative) Which shelters are you talking about? What about the outlets, how many? Will there be a battery pack?

You seem to think that all they need to do is take some solar panels out to the shelter and bolt them on.

July
05-31-2014, 10:13
As far as stripping camp sites of potential fire wood, that is already the case. And there are already seasonal fire bans in place in many states and outright bans in others.

Personally I really do not see devices such as the cup charger becoming too common place among backpackers. They are geared towards third world countries, with preppers and survivalists latching onto their potential uses. I think you'll see one or two here and there among backpackers, but they wont be common equipment. The one thing I have learned with the younger and the tech savy crowd is that they seem to have the issue of electronic charging well in hand. And the not so tech savy folks like myself can spend the time to quickly and easily learn all there is needed to understand charging electronics on the trail.

As I have followed this thread its seems to be alot of hubbub about nothing.

I started this thread with genuine interest, wanting to get feedback from "hikingboots on the ground". Inquiring minds in my neck of the woods are Tennessee Valley Authority in conjunction with NPS. These folks have the minds, manpower, time, & money to make it happen. (Although, I doubt you will be seeing "diet coke" machines in the backcountry) :-)

peakbagger
05-31-2014, 12:47
Just because it can be done and some government agency has grant bucks to burn doesn't mean it should be done. Government is real good at building stuff and not budgeting for maintenance. A practical solar setup is going to require maintenance and if not maintained it will not be running for long and become another piece of junk in the woods that needs to be hauled out.

Pedaling Fool
05-31-2014, 14:29
I started this thread with genuine interest, wanting to get feedback from "hikingboots on the ground". And you're getting feedback. Is it not the feedback you wanted:confused::D


These folks have the minds, manpower, time, & money to make it happen. (Although, I doubt you will be seeing "diet coke" machines in the backcountry) :-)No one is saying it's impossible, but it's also not something you just do and forget. This would require a whole bunch of money, besides just in the initial setup.

But for the record, my main protest (if this were to be a real possibility) would be the slippery slope...

July
05-31-2014, 14:45
And you're getting feedback. Is it not the feedback you wanted:confused::D

No one is saying it's impossible, but it's also not something you just do and forget. This would require a whole bunch of money, besides just in the initial setup.








But for the record, my main protest (if this were to be a real possibility) would be the slippery slope...
I think that the feedback has been fantastic, ranging accross the board. You are never going to please all the people all the time, such is life. Who knows where the future of this will lead, but I do feel that the people who hike, maintain, and "live" on these trails should have a voice and input. Could very well be expressed through the ATC.

Tuckahoe
05-31-2014, 20:38
http://www.nbc29.com/story/25660265/new-shelter-in-waynesboro-gives-appalachian-trail-hikes-a-place-to-stay

As I am assuming this pavilion is out of the woods and actually in Waynesboro, this seems to me the best location for such technology.

Wise Old Owl
05-31-2014, 21:48
As far as stripping camp sites of potential fire wood, that is already the case. And there are already seasonal fire bans in place in many states and outright bans in others.

Personally I really do not see devices such as the cup charger becoming too common place among backpackers. They are geared towards third world countries, with preppers and survivalists latching onto their potential uses. I think you'll see one or two here and there among backpackers, but they wont be common equipment. The one thing I have learned with the younger and the tech savy crowd is that they seem to have the issue of electronic charging well in hand. And the not so tech savy folks like myself can spend the time to quickly and easily learn all there is needed to understand charging electronics on the trail.

As I have followed this thread its seems to be alot of hubbub about nothing.
Yes but its a window to what may happen.

They are working on a ten watt version in less than two years...

July
05-31-2014, 22:26
ALDHA donated some money to relocate a pavilion for hikers and install a solar charger in Waynesboro. If I'm not mistaken while the pavilion and charger have been operational it was dedicated yesterday. I don't have an specifics but the charger cost several hundred or more to purchase and install.
Thanks Sly, and ALDHA!

Old Hiker
05-31-2014, 23:12
Several statements (paraphrased) raise my hackles:

"It wouldn't cost much"
" 'They' " have the money"

The government has NO money - just what they take from us. If you want the chargers in the shelters and they "don't cost that much", please feel free to use YOUR money to buy them, put them in and maintain them. Good luck with that.

Slippery slope, indeed. Surely, you can't be serious.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KM2K7sV-K74

I vote "no".

Wise Old Owl
05-31-2014, 23:47
OMG - why should the govt pay for it? why can't it be private donation?

Here is a massive Veterans Memorial provided by Private donation
http://www.delcoveteransmemorial.com/

Here is a huge 90 bed facility for the homeless in Chester County that lives on corporate donation.
http://www.safeharborofgwc.org/html/partners/partners.html

Let's keep the politics out of this...

Last Call
06-01-2014, 00:23
Solar chargers in the shelters?

I don't even want to see the shelters....

Pedaling Fool
06-01-2014, 08:44
http://www.nbc29.com/story/25660265/new-shelter-in-waynesboro-gives-appalachian-trail-hikes-a-place-to-stay

As I am assuming this pavilion is out of the woods and actually in Waynesboro, this seems to me the best location for such technology.I can't really find anymore information on that pavilion, but putting a solar panel on that does not seem to be any where the same as talking about installing them on the shelters.

This seems to be in town, judging by the video I watched on the link, such as all the houses... So I'm kind of curious as to where exactly this is. However, as of now I have zero issues with that at this point -- this seems to have nothing to do with shelters on the AT -- it seems to be just another service in town.

BTW, did you'll notice all that sunshine:sun Lot more sun than most shelters.;)

Tuckahoe
06-01-2014, 09:47
I can't really find anymore information on that pavilion, but putting a solar panel on that does not seem to be any where the same as talking about installing them on the shelters.

This seems to be in town, judging by the video I watched on the link, such as all the houses... So I'm kind of curious as to where exactly this is. However, as of now I have zero issues with that at this point -- this seems to have nothing to do with shelters on the AT -- it seems to be just another service in town.

BTW, did you'll notice all that sunshine:sun Lot more sun than most shelters.;)

And this I believe is how it should come together. As already expressed AT shelters are not the appropriate place for solar charging stations. It is after all the responsibility of the users of electronics to secure and carry their own extra power supply and those needs shouldn't intrude into shelter in the manner of a charging station. And in turn an equipped pavilion as the one in Waynesboro is a perfect marrying of the technology and needs. Seems to be a
win-win.

It would be interesting to see how it's used and what benefits it provides to both hikers and locals. Will there be anymore threads by hikers complaining because a convenience store clerk wouldn't allow a charge?

Wise Old Owl
06-01-2014, 10:07
No thanks. I still vote "No" on solar panels in the woods.



Some day in the future we are all going laugh about this.

rafe
06-01-2014, 10:11
Weren't there threads about such topics like a raceway close to the Trail? Wind farms? Etc, etc, etc? People complaining about the "wilderness" experience being degraded?

The racetrack is in CT and has been around for a long time (1956.) Not much can be done about it at this point.

Wind farms: the ATC has opposed wind farms near the trail (eg. in Maine) and I oppose the ATC on that issue, in fact I let my membership lapse for a few years over that matter.

I just can't sit quiet while y'all let loose with your Glenn Beck and Faux News talking points.

Pedaling Fool
06-01-2014, 10:25
The racetrack is in CT and has been around for a long time (1956.) Not much can be done about it at this point.

Wind farms: the ATC has opposed wind farms near the trail (eg. in Maine) and I oppose the ATC on that issue, in fact I let my membership lapse for a few years over that matter.

I just can't sit quiet while y'all let loose with your Glenn Beck and Faux News talking points.Maybe there are some fox news "talking points" on one side, but there is also some MSNBC talking points on the other.

I say drop all the govt vs private sector talk and just stick to the original question of solar panels on AT shelters. I'm just as against it if it were a private sector or govt project.

You can't just bolt some panels on a shelter in the woods and forget about it; this would be a total game changer out in the woods.

But for me, Like I said before...slippery slope, is my main reason for objecting to it, that's why I don't care if it's the govt or private sector -- it does not belong. Coke machines are on that slope...

Wise Old Owl
06-01-2014, 11:17
Yes you can bolt a few panels on the roof and forgetta bout it. let's keep the debate open

Lone Wolf
06-01-2014, 11:48
OMG - why should the govt pay for it? .

cuz the stupid things will be on government property. but this discussion is useless. it's never gonna happen anyway

Pedaling Fool
06-01-2014, 11:51
First off, just bolting it is not a reality. Have you seen some of the roofs of these shelters? You're going to need to build up the shelter stucture in many cases. Or you could put it on a pole, but that will again require quite a bit of build up. Should we cut down some trees or put them on a very large supporting structure, again the higher the structure the larger the build project.

Solar panels require cleaning, especially if they are surrounded by a bunch of pollinating trees. Every year I get tons of pollen all over everything, someone is going to have to clean that stuff off, but it's not just pollen, but other dust...

http://www.thesolarco.com/solar-energy/solar-panels/solar-panel-maintenance/


What Kind of Maintenance do Solar Panels Require?


Solar panels generally require very little maintenance since there are no moving parts. A few times a year, the panels should be inspected for any dirt or debris that may collect on them. Always make sure you are safety conscious when inspecting panels and don’t take any needless risks! If your panels are too high up on the roof to see very well from the ground, use caution with ladders.

For a general cleaning, simply use a standard garden hose to wash the face of the panels during either the early morning or in the evening. Avoid spraying cold water onto hot panels or you could risk cracking them!

There are also automated cleaners that work similar to sprinklers, such as the Heliotex system (http://www.solarpanelcleaningsystems.com/), which can be programmed to clean your panels as needed - a good choice if you are in an especially dusty area.

Professional solar panel cleaners are also in abundance and can come out periodically to clean them throughout the year. Check local listings for high-rated, reputable solar panel cleaning companies. This is a better choice for panels that are too high to reach well with a garden hose or if you want a more thorough cleaning.

Standard solar panel maintenance (http://www.thesolarco.com/how-to-maintain-your-solar-panels/) is the best way to make sure they are always producing efficiently.

johnnybgood
06-01-2014, 12:00
Maybe there are some fox news "talking points" on one side, but there is also some MSNBC talking points on the other.



You can't just bolt some panels on a shelter in the woods and forget about it; this would be a total game changer out in the woods.

But for me, Like I said before...slippery slope, Coke machines are on that slope...

With new technological advances I see more slippery slopes in the not too distance future . It's a harbinger for more discussions like this one.

I for one am a traditionalist and prefer the trail not go forward with such modern advances. My idea of a game changer is seeing less secular stuff on the trail. This is why I go to the woods. It is my game changer.

Pedaling Fool
06-01-2014, 12:11
[QUOTE=Pedaling Fool;1882100]Maybe there are some fox news "talking points" on one side, but there is also some MSNBC talking points on the other.



You can't just bolt some panels on a shelter in the woods and forget about it; this would be a total game changer out in the woods.

But for me, Like I said before...slippery slope, Coke machines are on that slope...[/QUOTE

With new technological advances I see more slippery slopes in the not too distance future . It's a harbinger for more discussions like this one.

I for one am a traditionalist and prefer the trail not go forward with such modern advances. My idea of a game changer is seeing less secular stuff on the trail. This is why I go to the woods. It is my game changer.
Yes, but the future ain't here yet WRT solar power, if it were we'd first see it on a vast majority of houses, but we don't. We'd also see it incorporated in gear, but we don't.

Putting it on shelters would be very intrusive and that intrusiveness would put us on that slippery slope NOW.

As far as the secular talk, I don't know what you're talking about:confused: but I don't really see it as applicable.


P.S. I know the cost of solar has come way down recently, but it's still an industry that needs to grow and it should, I'm not anti-solar, nor am I anti-technology. I just don't want build up on the trail. I would be just as opposed to installed water foutains on the trail. Does that make me anti-water foutain:D

johnnybgood
06-01-2014, 12:32
[QUOTE=johnnybgood;1882131]



As far as the secular talk, I don't know what you're talking about:confused: but I don't really see it as applicable.


P.S. I know the cost of solar has come way down recently, but it's still an industry that needs to grow and it should, I'm not anti-solar, nor am I anti-technology. I just don't want build up on the trail. I would be just as opposed to installed water foutains on the trail. Does that make me anti-water foutain:D

What I mean are worldly items that should be left at home. E- Readers, I Pads ( I kid you not), and the open rudeness of some smartphone users. Comprendes ?

Wise Old Owl
06-01-2014, 18:46
Thanks Pedaling Fool for enlightening me.

colorado_rob
06-01-2014, 20:49
Maybe it's because it's sunny Colorado, but solar collectors are springing up all over the place out here, about 10% of the houses in my neighborhood have them, basically the systems are "free" right now, but when (if) you sell your property you then pay XCEL energy for the system out of your proceeds. I'm looking into it, will probably go for it since we plan on basically dying in our current house (after hopefully a few more decades!).

I've talked to my neighbors that have the system; practically zero maintenance. Actually, zero for quite a while, at least. Money generators as XCEL buys your excess electricity.

Sorry, solar technology is HERE right now (and is getting less and less expensive) and a pilot program with a single collector on a couple of shelters is a fine idea. As far as aesthetics, the systems in my neighborhood are very unobtrusive, hardly noticeable at all.

Slippery slope? I just don't get this or any other objection to this. Did someone say "slippery slope" when we went to asphalt shingles for roofing (like on many AT shelters) vs. packed straw? Probably!

ChinMusic
06-01-2014, 21:02
Did someone say "slippery slope" when we went to asphalt shingles for roofing (like on many AT shelters) vs. packed straw?

no..................

Starchild
06-01-2014, 21:19
[QUOTE=johnnybgood;1882131]
Putting it on shelters would be very intrusive and that intrusiveness would put us on that slippery slope NOW.


How is it very intrusive? Unless you are there when they are installing them, it is just as about as unobtrusive as can be, panels in places you won't normally see them (and if you do, how is that intrusive, they are up on the roof, so is the roof and I never heard of a shelter roof being considered as very intrusive). And the places to recharge, so basically some sort of outlet.

So I'm not getting the very intrusive part, I have a hard time imaging something less intrusive. Perhaps you can explain how you see it as intrusive?

hoppy from GA
06-01-2014, 21:23
Its a wonder how everyone hiked the trail the first 70 years with no electronic gadgets. My guess is that someone or some animal will vandalize it within the first year.

I say if you can't survive without a charged gadget of some sort, then do something else besides hike the AT.

ChinMusic
06-01-2014, 21:30
I say if you can't survive without a charged gadget of some sort, then do something else besides hike the AT.
Why so luddites so freely violate HYOH?

Malto
06-01-2014, 21:35
Its a wonder how everyone hiked the trail the first 70 years with no electronic gadgets. My guess is that someone or some animal will vandalize it within the first year.

I say if you can't survive without a charged gadget of some sort, then do something else besides hike the AT.

And if you can't hike the AT without shoes then do something besides hike the AT.

hoppy from GA
06-01-2014, 21:40
Clarification: It's OK to have them, but you shouldn't have to depend on them to the point of needing a solar panel on a roof at a shelter. If your battery dies for a few hours, you will be OK.

moytoy
06-02-2014, 04:19
Why so luddites so freely violate HYOH?
King Ludd is alive and well now living on the AT.

rocketsocks
06-02-2014, 06:16
Putting a solar panel on a 80 year old shelter is like putting a bow-tie on a turdle and asking it to sing mammy how I love ya how I love ya.

Sly
06-02-2014, 08:49
Putting a solar panel on a 80 year old shelter is like putting a bow-tie on a turdle and asking it to sing mammy how I love ya how I love ya.

You could probably say the same about skylights and clear stories on the shelters in the Smokies but they came out awesome.

It would be easy to design new shelters to accommodate solar panels. If done on the back roof most wouln't even know they're there.

rocketsocks
06-02-2014, 09:06
You could probably say the same about skylights and clear stories on the shelters in the Smokies but they came out awesome.

It would be easy to design new shelters to accommodate solar panels. If done on the back roof most wouln't even know they're there.I just can't seem to get around the question of why they would be needed, just one really good reason. Is it so someone could save a couple ounces of pack weight, is that the only reason to have them? I guess I just don't get it.

I'd much prefer to come across this in the woods
27226

rather than this27227

One says I'm old, I belong here, I've been here...come on in.

the other says, I'm new, I smell like a beach ball, take off your shoes please!

to me anyway.


Skylights always end up leaking.

Starchild
06-02-2014, 09:18
I just can't seem to get around the question of why they would be needed, just one really good reason. Is it so someone could save a couple ounces of pack weight, is that the only reason to have them? I guess I just don't get it.

Encourage shelter use (minimize impact area), discourage stripping forest of wood for thermoelectric chargers, add a degree of safety by allowing emergency recharging opportunities for hikers, rangers and maintainers, allow hikers to go further before resupply due to low power (recharging at night would be great as no extra time is spend waiting) so more pleasant hiking/resupply experience, getting data now on a small scale on how effective they are for future consideration or 'disconsideration'.

Grampie
06-02-2014, 09:36
All the pieces that make up the AT trail ie: shelters, privies, foot paths, bridges, signs, blazes etc. have to be maintained. This is all done by a group of dedicated volunteerss who spend hours of their time just to maintain what all trail users enjoy. It is quite unfair to burden them with maintaining a item that would require constant attention and that we can all do without.

rocketsocks
06-02-2014, 09:45
Encourage shelter use (minimize impact area), discourage stripping forest of wood for thermoelectric chargers, add a degree of safety by allowing emergency recharging opportunities for hikers, rangers and maintainers, allow hikers to go further before resupply due to low power (recharging at night would be great as no extra time is spend waiting) so more pleasant hiking/resupply experience, getting data now on a small scale on how effective they are for future consideration or 'disconsideration'.

Encourage shelter use. Nobody uses shelters...to crowded :D but seriously, there already exists complaints of over crowding.

Discourage stripping forest of wood for thermoelectric chargers. ​there already exists a better choice, larger battery.

Allow hikers to go further before resupply due to low power. again, larger battery would solve the problem.

I really am truly trying to see the other side of this issue. All that you listed are true, perhaps it's really just about a mind set, having more, or dealing with less.

ChinMusic
06-02-2014, 09:46
All the pieces that make up the AT trail ie: shelters, privies, foot paths, bridges, signs, blazes etc. have to be maintained.
And oh do those bog bridges need some work in Maine.

Your point is perfect. There are MANY things were our time, money and effort take precedence.

DavidNH
06-02-2014, 10:23
so now people who hike a path "for those who seek fellowship with the wilderness" will now have electricity. lights, cell phones charged, radios going... heck why don't we put in flat screen televisions and microwave ovens in those shelters.

Let me close with the wise words of Chinmusic... to wit... "if you want juice, bring and f'n battery!" OK so i made the language a bit more colorful...

rocketsocks
06-02-2014, 10:41
so now people who hike a path "for those who seek fellowship with the wilderness" will now have electricity. lights, cell phones charged, radios going... heck why don't we put in flat screen televisions and microwave ovens in those shelters.

Let me close with the wise words of Chinmusic... to wit... "if you want juice, bring and f'n battery!" OK so i made the language a bit more colorful...yeah, but he was prolly thinkin it.:D

Pedaling Fool
06-02-2014, 10:50
Maybe it's because it's sunny Colorado, but solar collectors are springing up all over the place out here, about 10% of the houses in my neighborhood have them, basically the systems are "free" right now, but when (if) you sell your property you then pay XCEL energy for the system out of your proceeds. I'm looking into it, will probably go for it since we plan on basically dying in our current house (after hopefully a few more decades!).

I've talked to my neighbors that have the system; practically zero maintenance. Actually, zero for quite a while, at least. Money generators as XCEL buys your excess electricity.

Sorry, solar technology is HERE right now (and is getting less and less expensive) and a pilot program with a single collector on a couple of shelters is a fine idea. As far as aesthetics, the systems in my neighborhood are very unobtrusive, hardly noticeable at all.

First of all, I've said I'm not anti-solar and understand it's here to stay, that makes me :) Just look at my post on the solar powered pavilion in Waynesboro; I have zero issues with that.

You say 10% of houses in your neighborhood have solar panels -- I'll take your word on that, but you can't extrapolate that figure out to the entire US, you can't even apply that figure to the households in the EU. So still room for growth in this industry. And there is some false assumption that when you go solar all will be peachy...Sorry, but as more people go solar there will be ways to get your money, just look at the below excerpt http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-01-24/germany-tax-on-own-use-of-renewables-is-first-in-europe.html


German Plan

German consumers pay for the country’s clean-energy expansion through a surcharge on their bills. The fee is inflated by the rebates for consumers that use their own power and by aid for companies that are large energy users. It jumped 18 percent to 6.24 euro cents a kilowatt-hour this year. German households are now paying more for electricity than any other nation in the European Union except Denmark (http://topics.bloomberg.com/denmark/).

The charge would not be applied to new units sized 10 kilowatts or smaller, according to the document. Operators of new fossil-fired plants who consume the power themselves would have to pay 90 percent of the charge, according to the document.

Arizona approved a charge of 70 cents a kilowatt in November, setting a precedent for the U.S. market. In California (http://topics.bloomberg.com/california/), where solar already powers 626,000 homes, utilities are pushing for fees to connect solar panels to the grid that would add about $120 a year to rooftop users’ bills, a move trade groups say would slow installations.

Using your own power reduces grid costs because less power has to be sent through the networks, Wedepohl said. “It’s a trend that makes sense in many ways,” he said. “It’s incomprehensible that this should now be made unattractive despite good first experiences.”







Slippery slope? I just don't get this or any other objection to this. Did someone say "slippery slope" when we went to asphalt shingles for roofing (like on many AT shelters) vs. packed straw? Probably!




[QUOTE=Pedaling Fool;1882133]

How is it very intrusive? Unless you are there when they are installing them, it is just as about as unobtrusive as can be, panels in places you won't normally see them (and if you do, how is that intrusive, they are up on the roof, so is the roof and I never heard of a shelter roof being considered as very intrusive). And the places to recharge, so basically some sort of outlet.

So I'm not getting the very intrusive part, I have a hard time imaging something less intrusive. Perhaps you can explain how you see it as intrusive?

But let's get back to the trail....

Intrusiveness comes from the build up and in part from the slippery slope which will bring more and more intrusiveness out on the trail. It won't hit us all at once, these things take time. The first level of intrusiveness would simply be the construction. Again, I can't believe you all seem to think this is just a case of bolting on the roof. Solar panels need lots of sun just ask Germany, they spent tons of money on solar only to find out that maybe they should have spent it on wind, due to their high latitude (which means low sun for much of the year). http://theenergycollective.com/robertwilson190/335806/germany-shows-renewable-energy-has-failed-and-other-strange-ideas

Trees must come down or you could put it on a pole like someone said, but that's still major construction. Will there be batteries? If not what's the point. How many outlets?


Slippery slope people will not want to stop at simple outlets, just watch.

I believe just putting so many shelters on the trail was a slippery slope, but look how long it took before a new installation started being talked about. It took that time only because of technology, or the lack of. As technology advances, then these sorts of installations will start pouring in. There's probably no turning back on shelters, but saying no to other things is a must. IT WILL NOT STOP AT SOLAR PANELS. There was a thread (or posts) about drones earlier, as that technology advances there will be people that want drone drops and who knows what else is out there waiting to intrude on our time away from society?

Don't be so short-sighted.

Starchild
06-02-2014, 14:42
There was a thread (or posts) about drones earlier, as that technology advances there will be people that want drone drops and who knows what else is out there waiting to intrude on our time away from society?

Don't be so short-sighted.


Thanks, I forgot the drones, yes the alternative to solar is to fly in extra batteries, and fly out the uncharged ones. Hopefully free delivery with Amazon Prime membership :D

But to your point about removing trees, no I don't see that happening, if the site is not suitable for solar I just don't see it getting done there.


Also I do question those who say it is more then bolting it to a roof, because in it's simplest form that is exactly what it is - they already sell those exact devices (no battery just a USB port and minus the bolts).

Sarcasm the elf
06-02-2014, 14:53
Also I do question those who say it is more then bolting it to a roof, because in it's simplest form that is exactly what it is - they already sell those exact devices (no battery just a USB port and minus the bolts).

As has already been expressed, you would need a full time maintainer in order to prevent vandalism and theft. Otherwise these hypothetical charging stations would quickly find their usb terminals filled with chewing gum, their wires sliced by local teenagers or luddites who object to the presence of the chargers in the shelters and the valuble pieces of hardware stolen every now and then by opportunistic thieves (those of you who use the defense that "nobody would hike in two miles to steal a solar panel" either naive or underestimating the resolve of thieves who are broke and desparate for a quick buck.)

Plus, the whole idea of solar panels on shelters really is a solution in search of a problem.

Mags
06-02-2014, 15:02
Plus, the whole idea of solar panels on shelters really is a solution in search of a problem.

This!

I can only imagine the logistic headaches you just outlined.

Personally, I like the pavilion idea that Waynesboro is doing. A place to camp in town (I believe?), some information and charge up your devices.

This is the AT. IF you can' go 3-5 days between a charge you are tweeting, facebooking and catching up on Game of Thrones with your HBO Go account way too much. ;)

Starchild
06-02-2014, 15:20
As has already been expressed, you would need a full time maintainer in order to prevent vandalism and theft.
I accept this as your opinion, a opinion I do not share. And since we don't currently have a solar shelter you have no evidence to state this any further then your opinion.

There are currently quite a bit of unguarded solar panels, many now used for street signs left out in the public, they are not usually vandalized (or I have not heard of such vandalism).


Plus, the whole idea of solar panels on shelters really is a solution in search of a problem.

Your post seems more to indicate you are searching for a problem for a solution instead.

Lone Wolf
06-02-2014, 15:23
Earth First

Mags
06-02-2014, 15:24
There are currently quite a bit of unguarded solar panels, many now used for street signs left out in the public, they are not usually vandalized (or I have not heard of such vandalism).


Five seconds of googling:
https://www.google.com/webhp?sourceid=chrome-instant&ion=1&espv=2&es_th=1&ie=UTF-8#q=vandalism%20to%20solar%20panels

Hell this one is not far from the AT
http://www.unionleader.com/article/20120514/NEWS03/120519916
:)

Add a campsite where people often like to "party" and..well, oy vey!

rickb
06-02-2014, 16:35
Like beaver, some people need to build things. Bigger and better and without question.

It's good to ask why, but often that is not done.

Would charging stations create a safer experience? The second even a few people suggest that it might, no backcountry manager in his right mind would want to take on the responsibility of maintaining them 12 months a year.

And if safety is not the reason, what real man would want to put these in when there is real work to be done.

The beaver-man, that is who. If you see him lurking, get out your traps and relocate him to the suburbs.

Sarcasm the elf
06-02-2014, 16:36
Earth First

Mine the other planets later?

Starchild
06-02-2014, 17:15
Mine the other planets later?

The saying used to be 'Pluto first', we all know what they did to poor Pluto, not even considered a planet anymore, just something wandering around at the fringe of the solar system, Earth just better take a lesson from that and watch it, we want all planets treated equally.

Tuckahoe
06-02-2014, 19:15
Encourage shelter use (minimize impact area), discourage stripping forest of wood for thermoelectric chargers, add a degree of safety by allowing emergency recharging opportunities for hikers, rangers and maintainers, allow hikers to go further before resupply due to low power (recharging at night would be great as no extra time is spend waiting) so more pleasant hiking/resupply experience, getting data now on a small scale on how effective they are for future consideration or 'disconsideration'.

In what way would solar chargers encourage shelter use and minimize impact? Especially considering the reality that a significant portion of the hiking population already chooses not to use shelters, doesn't carry electronics, or has planned for charging. How would it reduce impact if hikers simply stop to charge and then move on to camp away from a shelter?

How would solar charging stations discourage the collecting of wood for thermoelectric charging, when the wood is already being collected for camp fires and wood burning camp stoves. How common are thermoelectric charges among hikers carrying electronic vs those simply carry charging packs or effective battery management?

How would a solar charging station allow hikers to go further before resupply? Especially in light of the fact that hikers generally resupply every 3-5 days, regardless of electronics.

How will exposed plastics and wiring be protected from rodents and gnawing critters?

Oh... and this...

I accept this as your opinion, a opinion I do not share. And since we don't currently have a solar shelter you have no evidence to state this any further then your opinion.

Lone Wolf
06-02-2014, 19:23
this starchild person seems to be all about electronics, apps, chargers, shelters, etc. typical of folks not comfortable in the woods

Sarcasm the elf
06-02-2014, 19:57
The saying used to be 'Pluto first', we all know what they did to poor Pluto, not even considered a planet anymore, just something wandering around at the fringe of the solar system, Earth just better take a lesson from that and watch it, we want all planets treated equally.

I don't even know what to say, that response was perfect.

http://www.wired.com/images_blogs/wiredscience/images/2007/12/14/i_want_pluto_to_be_a_planet_again.jpg

Starchild
06-03-2014, 07:01
In what way would solar chargers encourage shelter use and minimize impact? Especially considering the reality that a significant portion of the hiking population already chooses not to use shelters, doesn't carry electronics, or has planned for charging. How would it reduce impact if hikers simply stop to charge and then move on to camp away from a shelter?

How would solar charging stations discourage the collecting of wood for thermoelectric charging, when the wood is already being collected for camp fires and wood burning camp stoves. How common are thermoelectric charges among hikers carrying electronic vs those simply carry charging packs or effective battery management?

How would a solar charging station allow hikers to go further before resupply? Especially in light of the fact that hikers generally resupply every 3-5 days, regardless of electronics.

How will exposed plastics and wiring be protected from rodents and gnawing critters?

Oh... and this...

Bold mine, which is in response to...


you have no evidence to state this any further then your opinion.

Which we both happy accuse each other of and accept as true, so I say to your questions and issues raised...

Lets find out. Since all we have is speculation and opinion, lets face it no done really knows how it will or won't work in the woods because it has not been done yet. So the way to know is to try it and get that data and proceed accordingly based on data, not opinion.

Starchild
06-03-2014, 07:03
this starchild person seems to be all about electronics, apps, chargers, shelters, etc. typical of folks not comfortable in the woods

Except on hike naked day, I do like to wear clothes also when I hike.

Tuckahoe
06-30-2014, 07:42
Solar power park bench charging stations -- http://fortune.com/2014/06/27/solar-cells-charge-cell-phones-on-bostons-new-smart-benches/?icid=maing-grid7%7Cmain5%7Cdl14%7Csec1_lnk3%26pLid%3D495164

T.S.Kobzol
06-30-2014, 08:20
'Solar Stuff' is definitely not BS but I agree that it just does not belong on the the wilderness trail.


If you want juice, bring a freaking battery. This solar stuff is just BS at this point in time.

T.S.Kobzol
06-30-2014, 08:23
He called the idea dumb. He did not call the person dumb.


That's your opinion, please respect others'. Calling others' ideas "dumb" is disrespectful. External charges are heavy, but sure, an option for some.

T.S.Kobzol
06-30-2014, 08:25
You improve battery efficiencty - people will just use more juice and end up empty by lunch time :-)


The other point that needs to be mentioned is that within the next 5-10 years improvements in battery technology will likely remove the need for frequent charging. So just wait a while and this will be a non-issue (This is based on an NPR tech story I heard a little while back, sorry i don't have a link)

T.S.Kobzol
06-30-2014, 08:27
Actually this brings up an interesting point - priority. If we spend money to bring solar to the shelters then the power should probably first be used for improvement of composting and disinfecting waste.




why don't we run water and sewer to the shelters so we can have real toilets ? I mean im sure most people would rather crap on a real toilet then in a privy ! and why wouldn't it be easier for someone carry a external charger?? they have ones now that can charge your iPhone 7 or 8 times and only weigh 1.5 to 2 pounds! like Chinmusic said its a dumb idea.

I mean if we are going to dumb ideas, I say 50 inch plasmas, direct TV (with NFL package, of course) in each shelter !!! NEVER have to miss your favorite shows or big games ever again !!!

T.S.Kobzol
06-30-2014, 09:00
I would doubt that



i'm willin' to bet ATC memberships would drop off sharply if they allowed this foolishness

rickb
06-30-2014, 11:40
Solar charging on select park benches in Boston:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/06/27/boston-try-out-solar-powered-smart-benches-parks/5HsIdo7ReBJrVuFJgpiIMN/story.html

ChinMusic
06-30-2014, 12:29
Solar charging on select park benches in Boston:

http://www.bostonglobe.com/metro/2014/06/27/boston-try-out-solar-powered-smart-benches-parks/5HsIdo7ReBJrVuFJgpiIMN/story.html
Wow, those benches go for $3000 a pop. I hope no federal money went into that. If Boston wants to burn cash that is their business.

July
06-30-2014, 23:48
Wow, those benches go for $3000 a pop. I hope no federal money went into that. If Boston wants to burn cash that is their business.
Ahh, the infancy... Really?

ChinMusic
06-30-2014, 23:50
Ahh, the infancy... Really?

Do you EVER have a point or are you a poor man's Matty?

July
06-30-2014, 23:58
Do you EVER have a point or are you a poor man's Matty?
We appreciate your interest.

rocketsocks
07-26-2014, 02:54
Bumpin'

"the thread of the month"

it's a good read, with some great discussions.

kayak karl
07-26-2014, 08:03
27881.........................

Lyle
07-26-2014, 08:22
Solar chargers in the shelters?

I don't even want to see the shelters....

There are PLENTY of trails with no shelters. Just hike one of them. The AT is pretty unique and awesome for what it is, but it is NOT a wilderness experience - far from it. It does not need to be wilderness to have great value, and to offer a very fun experience.

That said, I vote no on going as far as installing solar charging stations. It is plenty easy to keep your gadgets working as things are now. Do not spend limited resources and effort on a project like this.

rocketsocks
07-26-2014, 14:00
27881.........................Poyfect.......:D

kayak karl
07-26-2014, 16:16
Do you EVER have a point or are you a poor man's Matty?
don't insult Matty that way:D

July
07-27-2014, 01:28
don't insult Matty that way:D nkayakkarl?/chnbith/bitch

rocketsocks
07-27-2014, 01:31
nkayakkarl?/chnbith/bitch
shoot, where's my secret decoder ring.

July
07-27-2014, 02:23
Still, runnin dogs, chashin Coons, and lip Smacck'in WB word Smackin best People in the Werld... Fix'in country Break...fast.

rocketsocks
07-27-2014, 02:27
biscuits and sausage gravy made with jimmi deans...mmm goodn'