Ticks in New England protection

[Groundsound1]

Hey whiteblaze, just got back from a beautiful backpacking trip through the foothills trail in northwestern South Carolina. I'm thru hiking the AT southbound and , correct me if I am mistaken, but Lyme disease is most prevalent in New England correct? If so, I was planning to hike New England with my pants tucked into my socks and a long sleeve wicking shirt with a face net and hat. All soaked in permethrin of course. I'm willing to go the extra mile, be a little more uncomfortable, sweat a little bit more, to avoid Lyme the best I can. Would this be effective? I don't want to use DEET because I have heard it can cause cancer. I'm a health freak who doesn't particularly enjoy eating anything other than organic, although I'm going to have to throw this away while I'm hiking the AT. I'll most likely use picardin instead when needed.


also, should I soak all of my gear in permethrin? Including my tarptent notch, ula catalyst backpack, and stuff sacks? I don't think I want to soak my down sleeping bag but maybe I should, what do you think?

Thanks guys and girls, :)

[Damn Yankee]

I don't think you need to go crazy, normal tick avoidance is all that's warranted. Make sure you shake out cloths and equipment and do body checks. You will be walking on good trails and not bushwacking.

[bamboo bob]

Two weeks ago I had an embedded tick. As long as its not on you for more than 48 hrs you are likely safe. On a trail you need to inspect. Ticks are a low land problem. Found mostly below 1650 feet according to an AMC article. Mostly. My doc gave me doxycycline one double dose. I'm fine. My wife had the same thing but was given no meds because the tick could not have been on her very long. They told me the doxycycline works 85% of the time. I'm in VT, plenty of deer and plenty of tivks.

[Groundsound1]

Inspecting isn't that easy for me, i can check my neck and head and upper back but below the belt and above the knees are a different story, especially my back, because some ticks are pretty small i might not even feel them..

[jeffmeh]

Treat clothes, shoes, hat, and headnet with permethrin. You won't need the headnet for ticks, but you might for the flying insects. As stated, inspect the best you can. Other than that, enjoy. :)

[Don H]

Know the symptoms of Lyme Disease and seek immediate treatment if you suspect you've been exposed.

[rafe]

Know the symptoms of Lyme Disease and seek immediate treatment if you suspect you've been exposed.

Unfortunately the symptoms of Lyme Disease are all over the map -- by the time you're noticing symptoms you most definitely need to see a doc. Lyme-carrying ticks have spread well beyond New England. Here's the map from the CDC:

http://www.cdc.gov/lyme/stats/maps/map2012.html

Best just to check for the little buggers regularly and carefully -- they like to nestle in hard-to reach places, hairy places, etc. There's a proper way to tweeze them off, if you find one. The CDC site has lots of good info.

As for DEET and cancer, I'd weigh the odds of DEET as a carcinogen vs. the range of diseases and disorders that mosquitoes carry and spread. There are supposedly safer alternatives (eg. lemon eucalyptus) but I've found none of them to be as effective.

[mattjv89]

Inspecting isn't that easy for me, i can check my neck and head and upper back but below the belt and above the knees are a different story, especially my back, because some ticks are pretty small i might not even feel them..

I wouldn't expect a tick to attach to a spot on your back, they tend to go for warm areas such as armpits, groin, belly button etc. For whatever it's worth I grew up in CT in the sister town to Lyme where it was discovered, and through my childhood romping around the woods if I wasn't getting covered in poison ivy I was getting covered in ticks. Pulled many, many off and never caught a thing from them. Checking and early detection probably helped that a lot.

[lemon b]

Just pulled one off my back two days ago. Keeping an eye on the area. Was on less than 24 hrs. Pulled one off the dog yesterday. The stuff my vet gives me seems to be working on the cat. I do an inspection daily. I live at about 1700 feet.

[sfdoc]

I strongly suggest you check out UNITIC's discussion on You Tube. The video where he's sitting and wearing a lime green jersey is the one that has the most info. He gave this class at last year's ALDHA conference.

[canoe]

Two weeks ago I had an embedded tick. As long as its not on you for more than 48 hrs you are likely safe. On a trail you need to inspect. Ticks are a low land problem. Found mostly below 1650 feet according to an AMC article. Mostly. My doc gave me doxycycline one double dose. I'm fine. My wife had the same thing but was given no meds because the tick could not have been on her very long. They told me the doxycycline works 85% of the time. I'm in VT, plenty of deer and plenty of tivks. You might want to recheck the info you are giving Bob. A tick does not have to be attached for 48 hrs in order to get lyme. That is a myth. You were bitten by a tick that was not infected. I am not familiar with AMC . 1650' is a joke. They are at least everywhere where there are fur bearing animals.

[ChinMusic]

Lyme is tricky. Before my thru I remember folks talking about "tick checks". It made sense. In practice this method seems to have failed a lot of folks. Quite a few of my fellow thrus from '13 got Lyme. I do not recall that any of those that got Lyme had treated their clothing with permethrin. Most were relying on tick checks and/or symptoms.

The tricky parts are these deer tick can be so dang small, and the symptoms/signs can vary so much from individual to individual. If you are one that gets a big red bulls eye it is obvious. If you are one that gets the classic flu-like symptoms it is near obvious. The truth is many get Lyme without knowing they got Lyme until later.

I treated all my clothing with permethrin and retreated once a month (had a new set of treated clothing mailed from home). During my thru I saw two ticks on exposed skin but they had just gotten there. I had plans on wearing hiking pants on the entire thru but it was just too dang hot and I went to shorts sans skivvies. Each morning I would place a couple-inch band of 100% DEET all the way around my legs, above my knee. My hopes were that ticks would not walk through the DEET. None did.

I did spray the floor of my tent but I don't think that was very effective since permethrin needs a better surface to bond to.

[Snowleopard]

Nothing is foolproof, but the best bet to avoiding Lyme is a combined approach:
Wear long pants and long sleeve shirt treated with permethrin, light colored so you have a better chance of seeing them on the cloth. This probably is the most helpful step.
Do a daily tick check, but it can be hard to see deer ticks until they are engorged; I live alone, so a good tick check is hard for me.
Be aware of symptoms and see a doctor if you have them; you don't always get immediate symptoms.
Wear treated gaiters or tuck pants into socks.
Use DEET on exposed skin, especially on lower body if you don't wear long pants.
Spray shoes, and maybe hat and upper parts of socks with permethrin;
It can't hurt to spray outside of backpack with permethrin.
Spraying tent entrance or floor or ground cloth with permethrin might help a little (probably more with crawling insects other than ticks).

Don't use permethrin on underwear or head bands (too much absorption).
Don't soak your sleeping bag with permethrin; it won't help much if at all.
No need to soak the whole tent.
Don't use permethrin on stuff sacks, especially food sacks.
I don't use permethrin on insulating clothes, figuring that my pants and shirt provide enough barrier.
A head net is rarely (never?) needed for ticks, maybe useful if your head is brushing against shrubs. Hat and headnet are helpful for mosquitoes and absolutely necessary during black fly season in the north.

If you catch Lyme early and treat it it's usually not too bad. If you don't catch it early it can be devastating.

Rafe's map shows you where it's worst and where you should be most careful, but it's spreading. One friend has had it twice and most of her family has had it, probably caught in their yard in the Boston suburbs.

[perrymk]

Just a question here. I've read that soaps with tea tree oil are good for repelling ticks. I'm wondering if taking a quick navy bath/shower using a tea tree oil soap would help remove any ticks that hadn't fully attached or even those that have? Or would it have no effect on the ticks?

[DandT40]

I wouldn't expect a tick to attach to a spot on your back, they tend to go for warm areas such as armpits, groin, belly button etc. For whatever it's worth I grew up in CT in the sister town to Lyme where it was discovered, and through my childhood romping around the woods if I wasn't getting covered in poison ivy I was getting covered in ticks. Pulled many, many off and never caught a thing from them. Checking and early detection probably helped that a lot.

I was up on the Ice Age Trail all weekend and had no fewer than 1000 ticks on me over the course of the weekend. They were all over my back when I got home. I had at least a half dozen on my back alone which in reality wasn't that many compared to the rest of my body since I couldn't pick those off during the hike like my feet/legs. But they will go anywhere. The waste band of the back of my underwear had over a dozen on them and they were working their way up my back consistently.

After the first day I doused myself from head to toe in DEET and it "helped" but I still had over 100 a day on me easily. Granted this is northern Wisconsin, not the AT or other higher elevations, but I promise there is not an inch of your body that ticks will not go for.

My sister is currently suffering from lyme disease and anyone that thinks that you just walk into a doctors office and this is easily diagnosed is kidding yourself. Granted she is not an outdoors person and had no idea she had been bitten (it probably happened years ago), but it took several months of testing and 3 different doctors for her to get correctly diagnosed. And that was the easy part. The treatment is no fun at all...

[rafe]

Advanced Lyme disease can be a seriously life-changing thing.

I had a round of Bell's Palsy a year and a half back. I see now that that is one of many Lyme disease symptoms. Docs never suggested a Lyme connection -- it may have been associated with a case of shingles -- but who knows?

Several years back I read the book "Nature Noir" (http://www.amazon.com/Nature-Noir-Rangers-Patrol-Sierra/dp/0618711953) by a guy who worked as park ranger at several California state parks. Really interesting book. He had advanced Lyme. There's a chapter in that book about how he might have caught it, and what he did to treat it.

Bill Bryson:


"No less arresting is Lyme disease, which comes from the bite of a tiny deer tick. If undetected, it
can lie dormant in the human body for years before erupting in a positive fiesta of
maladies. This is a disease for the person who wants to experience it all. The symptoms
include, but are not limited to, headaches, fatigue, fever, chills, shortness of breath,
dizziness, shooting pains in the extremities, cardiac irregularities, facial paralysis, muscle
spasms, severe mental impairment, loss of control of body functions, and--hardly
surprising, really-- chronic depression."

[ChinMusic]

Advanced Lyme disease can be a seriously life-changing thing.

I had a round of Bell's Palsy a year and a half back. I see now that that is one of many Lyme disease symptoms. Docs never suggested a Lyme connection -- it may have been associated with a case of shingles -- but who knows?


I did not know that there was a connection to Bell's Palsy. One of my buddies had to get off the trail in southern Maine due to a combination of Bell's, Lyme, and ulcers. He was in the hospital for 2 weeks and did not return to the trail. Now I'm wondering if the ulcer was connected as well. Kinda odd to get so many things at one time.

[lemon b]

I have the feeling lyme is kinda like hep-c. Some peoples own bodies fight it off. It effects different people in different ways, it's been around longer than we think and the medical and science people are in a learning process as to spotting it and also as to treating lyme. Best thing we as individuals can do is inspect. The actual areas on my own land are going to get sprayed to try and kill them and bring them under control. Have to wonder also how many people know the difference between the dog tick and deer tick. What percent of the ticks carry lyme and also where the heck it came from in the first place. Hopefully science and medicine will catch up.

[Wise Old Owl]

Just a question here. I've read that soaps with tea tree oil are good for repelling ticks. I'm wondering if taking a quick navy bath/shower using a tea tree oil soap would help remove any ticks that hadn't fully attached or even those that have? Or would it have no effect on the ticks?

Sorry, that is an Internet Myth. Showering or bathing helps knock some off still need to do an inspection.

[DandT40]

I was telling my wife about this thread and she really wants to know if there is anything we can do to our car to be sure there are none left in there. We were finding them on the way home and the next couple days. The car's interior is of course a black/grey microfiber making them impossible to see. Also what is the life span of them if they are in a car, or on clothing that is in a bag - a place I assume they would not survive long term without some sort of food or water. Knowing these little .... they probably thrive in those conditions though...

[Wise Old Owl]

I have the feeling lyme is kinda like hep-c. Some peoples own bodies fight it off. It effects different people in different ways, it's been around longer than we think and the medical and science people are in a learning process as to spotting it and also as to treating lyme. Best thing we as individuals can do is inspect. The actual areas on my own land are going to get sprayed to try and kill them and bring them under control. Have to wonder also how many people know the difference between the dog tick and deer tick. What percent of the ticks carry lyme and also where the heck it came from in the first place. Hopefully science and medicine will catch up.

Lyme is everywhere and so is west nile and encephalitis - Deep Woods Off keeps it all away from you. Recently around Washington DC and in California folks have contracted Malaria again. Deet is not an insecticide, It doesn't kill anything... I can't find anything where it causes cancer and the internet is full of MYTH. It is by far one of the few most tested products on the planet and until something comes down the pike thats better I will still use it. FYI I had a meeting with my doctor who used to practice as a young man in Panama - and he said he used 36% Deet and back then it stunk like gasoline. Although many of his freinds came down with malaria - he didn't. He is in his late 60's and doing just fine.

My dad told me stories of a cousin who came back from the great war and had contracted malaria prior to the invention of deet and he was never the same - the constant shakes prevent conversation. Couldn't work etc...

[Sarcasm the elf]

I was telling my wife about this thread and she really wants to know if there is anything we can do to our car to be sure there are none left in there. We were finding them on the way home and the next couple days. The car's interior is of course a black/grey microfiber making them impossible to see. Also what is the life span of them if they are in a car, or on clothing that is in a bag - a place I assume they would not survive long term without some sort of food or water. Knowing these little .... they probably thrive in those conditions though...

Park the car in direct sunlight with all the windows rolled up for several hours on a hot sunny day. The inside of the car should get more than hot enough to kill them.

[Snowleopard]

... The actual areas on my own land are going to get sprayed to try and kill them and bring them under control. ...
For your own land there are things to do besides spraying to make your yard unfriendly to ticks; even if you spray it's probably best to combine these pest management methods:

Here are some simple landscaping techniques that can help reduce tick populations:

Remove leaf litter.
Clear tall grasses and brush around homes and at the edge of lawns.
Place a 3-ft wide barrier of wood chips or gravel between lawns and wooded areas to restrict tick migration into recreational areas.
Mow the lawn frequently.
Stack wood neatly and in a dry area (discourages rodents).
Keep playground equipment, decks, and patios away from yard edges and trees.
Discourage unwelcome animals (such as deer, raccoons, and stray dogs) from entering your yard by constructing fences.
Remove old furniture, mattresses, or trash from the yard that may give ticks a place to hide.


http://www.cdc.gov/ticks/avoid/in_the_yard.html
Here's a 70 page book by the state of CT on tick management:
http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/documents/special_features/tickhandbook.pdf
I suspect that WOO knows a lot about this.

[Pedaling Fool]

I have the feeling lyme is kinda like hep-c. Some peoples own bodies fight it off. It effects different people in different ways, it's been around longer than we think and the medical and science people are in a learning process as to spotting it and also as to treating lyme. Best thing we as individuals can do is inspect. The actual areas on my own land are going to get sprayed to try and kill them and bring them under control. Have to wonder also how many people know the difference between the dog tick and deer tick. What percent of the ticks carry lyme and also where the heck it came from in the first place. Hopefully science and medicine will catch up.
That does seem to be the case...

http://oregonstate.edu/ua/ncs/archives/2014/may/amber-discovery-indicates-lyme-disease-older-human-race


CORVALLIS, Ore. – Lyme disease is a stealthy, often misdiagnosed disease that was only recognized about 40 years ago, but new discoveries of ticks fossilized in amber (http://bit.ly/RCFVzp) show that the bacteria which cause it may have been lurking around for 15 million years – long before any humans walked on Earth.

The findings were made by researchers from Oregon State University, who studied 15-20 million-year-old amber from the Dominican Republic that offer the oldest fossil evidence ever found of Borrelia, a type of spirochete-like bacteria that to this day causes Lyme disease. They were published in the journal Historical Biology.

In a related study, published in Cretaceous Research, OSU scientists announced the first fossil record of Rickettsial-like cells (https://www.flickr.com/photos/oregonstateuniversity/14107318319/), a bacteria that can cause various types of spotted fever.

Those fossils from Myanmar were found in ticks about 100 million years old (https://www.flickr.com/photos/oregonstateuniversity/14314151923/in/photostream/).

As summer arrives and millions of people head for the outdoors, it’s worth considering that these tick-borne diseases may be far more common than has been historically appreciated, and they’ve been around for a long, long time.

“Ticks and the bacteria they carry are very opportunistic,” said George Poinar, Jr., a professor emeritus in the Department of Integrative Biology of the OSU College of Science, and one of the world’s leading experts on plant and animal life forms found preserved in amber. “They are very efficient at maintaining populations of microbes in their tissues, and can infect mammals, birds, reptiles and other animals.

“In the United States, Europe and Asia, ticks are a more important insect vector of disease than mosquitos,” Poinar said. “They can carry bacteria that cause a wide range of diseases, affect many different animal species, and often are not even understood or recognized by doctors.

“It’s likely that many ailments in human history for which doctors had no explanation have been caused by tick-borne disease.”

Lyme disease is a perfect example. It can cause problems with joints, the heart and central nervous system, but researchers didn’t even know it existed until 1975. If recognized early and treated with antibiotics, it can be cured. But it’s often mistaken for other health conditions. And surging deer populations in many areas are causing a rapid increase in Lyme disease – the confirmed and probable cases of Lyme disease in Nova Scotia nearly tripled in 2013 over the previous year.

The new research shows these problems with tick-borne disease have been around for millions of years.

Bacteria are an ancient group that date back about 3.6 billion years, almost as old as the planet itself. As soft-bodied organisms they are rarely preserved in the fossil record, but an exception is amber, which begins as a free-flowing tree sap that traps and preserves material in exquisite detail as it slowly turns into a semi-precious mineral.

A series of four ticks from Dominican amber were analyzed in this study, revealing a large population of spirochete-like cells (http://bit.ly/1msuLHk) that most closely resemble those of the present-day Borrelia species. In a separate report, Poinar found cells that resemble Rickettsia bacteria, the cause of Rocky Mountain spotted fever and related illnesses. This is the oldest fossil evidence of ticks associated with such bacteria.

In 30 years of studying diseases revealed in the fossil record, Poinar has documented the ancient presence of such diseases as malaria, leishmania, and others. Evidence suggests that dinosaurs could have been infected with Rickettsial pathogens.

Humans have probably been getting diseases, including Lyme disease, from tick-borne bacteria as long as there have been humans, Poinar said. The oldest documented case is the Tyrolean iceman, a 5,300-year-old mummy found in a glacier in the Italian Alps.

“Before he was frozen in the glacier, the iceman was probably already in misery from Lyme disease,” Poinar said. “He had a lot of health problems and was really a mess.”




Park the car in direct sunlight with all the windows rolled up for several hours on a hot sunny day. The inside of the car should get more than hot enough to kill them.
That's probably not a bad idea; seems it's the low humidity that is really bad for them.

http://www.tickencounter.org/faq/tick_habitat

Excerpt:

"TERC Answer: Unlike some other tick species, deer ticks (Ixodes scapularis) are particularly susceptible to desiccation, or drying out. They can only survive short periods in places where the atmospheric moisture content (relative humidity) is less than say 90%. In one experiment, most of the nymphal deer ticks exposed to 75% humidity for 8 hours died, even after being returned to 96% humidity. In a typical house environment, unfed deer ticks are not likely to survive even 24 hours. Ticks on moist clothing in a hamper can survive 2-3 days. Ticks that have taken a blood meal may survive a bit longer but certainly not the 30+ days it takes to mature and bite again or lay eggs."

[Pedaling Fool]

For your own land there are things to do besides spraying to make your yard unfriendly to ticks; even if you spray it's probably best to combine these pest management methods:

http://www.cdc.gov/ticks/avoid/in_the_yard.html
Here's a 70 page book by the state of CT on tick management:
http://www.ct.gov/caes/lib/caes/documents/special_features/tickhandbook.pdf
I suspect that WOO knows a lot about this.


Basically that's saying to have the typical American lawn of grass. Screw that, I'll just have to take my own advice I give to others, because I just love my natural habitat that I've created too much.

BTW, my advice is: Adapt or die, Bitch...:D

[TrippLite]

With all due respect,
I thought WhiteBlaze had a filter in place that edits out profanity.
Can we please get a cleanup on post #25 ?

[double d]

Does anyone know of medication and/or vaccination that can deter the effects of Lyme Disease if one becomes infected before heading out for a long distance hike?

[Snowleopard]

Does anyone know of medication and/or vaccination that can deter the effects of Lyme Disease if one becomes infected before heading out for a long distance hike?
There was a vaccine but it was pulled from the market years ago. If you catch it, one standard treatment is doxycyline; you really need to see a doctor if you suspect you might have it.

Pedaling Fool, you don't have to do any of these landscape changes. I certainly don't, but I probably would if I had children living with me. I like the more natural habitat also. Probably the local predators keep the small mammal population down which reduces tick population. Here that would be mainly coyotes, foxes, fishers, hawks and owls.

[Wise Old Owl]

Park the car in direct sunlight with all the windows rolled up for several hours on a hot sunny day. The inside of the car should get more than hot enough to kill them.

Nope... serious - unless you live in Las Vegas - Deer Ticks and Bed Bugs are very similar. You must achieve 4-5 hours above 135° They are great at hiding and finding with their eyes the best place to crack and crevice...

[double d]

[QUOTE=Snowleopard;1881982]There was a vaccine but it was pulled from the market years ago. If you catch it, one standard treatment is doxycyline; you really need to see a doctor if you suspect you might have it.

Thanks for the follow up information!

[Wise Old Owl]

Basically that's saying to have the typical American lawn of grass. Screw that, I'll just have to take my own advice I give to others, because I just love my natural habitat that I've created too much.

BTW, my advice is: Adapt or die, Bitch...:D Well not a good attempt at being funny.

As much as I am trying to stay out of this.. folks I am required by federal law for continuing ed... my real problem is at over 50 I love to learn more. I get a bunch of scientists talking about tests, and new stuff each and every year. OK I love it. At University of Delaware two years ago a really good friend got up in front of a thousand professionals and discussed this topic to death, yes a scientist.. Ticks and Mosquitoes do NOT live in short well manicured grass. They are hiding from the sun in the bushes, here is the short tale

1. Female Mosquito's are wired to reproduce and hide in the day in the shade, until you walk by. In Canada at a higher latitude... more at night or dusk.

2. Deer Ticks need fallen leaves and debris to reproduce and find a path from egg to larva to adult and that requires two blood meals from mice. So..


remember this , Encephalitis, Lyme, and West Nile... only one solution - Deep Woods Off for North America. Apparently after talking to my doctor who practiced in South America (Panama) you need 36%...


Avoid the nasties...

[bamboo bob]

I have TWO embedded ticks behind my knees right now and am headed off to a nearby walk-in clinic this morning. I sprayed with Deep Woods Off on Sunday and inspected so i have no idea about anything except there they are.