Soaking gear in permethrin

[Groundsound1]

Hey whiteblaze, leaving to the AT lodge and then khatadin and on to the rest of my journey in about a month so I wanted to get a couple things cleared up!

I know I can soak my clothing in permethrin, but what about my gear?

will I be able to soak:

-western mountaineering highlite down sleeping bag
-ULA catalyst backpack
-Backpack rain cover
-tarptent notch tent
-neo air thermarest sleeping pad
-brooks cascadia 9 trail runner shoes

If I can't soak any of these, should I Atleast spray them down?

I also had had two questionable items along with this whether to soak or not.

-patagonia torrentshell rain jacket with H2NO
-patagonia cap 4 hoodie
-patagonia cap 3 long johns
-fox river liner socks

thanks a a bunch guys, I'm so excited to start this journey and I want to be as safe as possible from those damn ticks!


-groundsound 2014 SOBO baby!!

[Ricky&Jack]

i know the bottle says you can spray your tent and gear.

I would "assume" that you can soak your gear too.

I wish i knew where to find it in concentrate form. The local walmart only had 1 small bottle that only sprays 2 outfits (2 shirts, 2 pants, 2 socks) and it cost $11.

I would love to be able to fill a bin half way full so that I can dip everything on it. (and then set the tent up right away, so it dries)

[perrito]

I would only soak the clothing, minus the underwear. I would spray the shoes and the backpack. Everything else is probably not going to absorb the permethrin.

Sent from my phone using Tapatalk.

[TrippLite]

When treating my gear, I insert a trash bag in a 5 gallon bucket and soak items, then hang to dry. Any left over product in the bucket gets poured into a spray bottle and I then treat larger items or items I choose not to soak .... for example sleeping bag gets light spray treatment. Once finished, if any remaining product is left over I pour into marked plastic bottles and save for a later time. I remove plastic bag from bucket and use in my trash can in garage therefore no cleanup... I have soaked my rain gear before but question it long term (absorption value) once wet. I agree with Perrito recommendations, minus underwear ( I soak em )
Note, you will likely hear feedback critiquing Permethrin regarding its safe use. However, once it has dried it is odorless and safe for human contact. It is unsafe to humans when consumed... If you get on skin it may cause minor irritation and drying of skin. Wash off with soap and water.
* Highly Toxic to cats...

[Wise Old Owl]

So let me ask, why on earth would you want your long johns soaked? Are you afraid of Mosquito's on your winter berries?

[Bipolar Roller]

Permethrin 10 can be had at quality farm and fleet of family home and farm, orlocal farm feed stores etc....it is 10% permethrin which is ten time the strength of sprays you can buy. Then just dilute it. The cost is usually about 20 dollars so it costs you minimally. I use it to spray may lawn etc.. for mosquitos after diluting it.

[ChinMusic]

So let me ask, why on earth would you want your long johns soaked? Are you afraid of Mosquito's on your winter berries?

I treat my skivvies. I view it as a last line of defense against ticks.

There is no health risk to treating you undergarmets. Folks get this misconception from the military stating NOT to treat your undergarmets. But the military reason was to not waste product and not for health reasons. The military reason was that your treated outer garmets are good enough. I do not have the same cost concern as the military and treat it all.

[Ricky&Jack]

when you 'soak' your clothing, how long do you soak it?

(is there a difference between soaking it 5minutes and soaking it overnight?)

[ChinMusic]

when you 'soak' your clothing, how long do you soak it?

(is there a difference between soaking it 5minutes and soaking it overnight?)

You want even distribution through your clothing. Remember, the more clothing in the bag the less permethrin per square inch. I do not recall the directions, but at home I let the chemicals soak over night. I hang them in the morning and use them after two days (I have plenty of time at home), to make sure they are dry. It probably can be done much quicker.

[Sarcasm the elf]

I just finished my third course of doxycycline in seven years. Lyme disease is real, but it's not the end of the world. Be smart about it but stop worrying too much. Check yourself for ticks throughout the day and again throughly at night. If you get a bullseye rash, or if you get flu symptoms in the summer (especially if they are accompanied by joint aches) then go see a doctor. But don't be irrationally paranoid about Lyme disease. Permethrin is effective, but it's a chemical pesticide with it's own side effects (it kills cats and fish dead in liquid form as one example) don't go nuts with the stuff and don't go crazy worrying about ticks.

[Wise Old Owl]

I treat my skivvies. I view it as a last line of defense against ticks.

There is no health risk to treating you undergarmets. Folks get this misconception from the military stating NOT to treat your undergarmets. But the military reason was to not waste product and not for health reasons. The military reason was that your treated outer garmets are good enough. I do not have the same cost concern as the military and treat it all.

I will be honest - I am aware that come September the mosquitoes are done on the trail after the second frost. There is a minor heath risk as it happened to me and I have posted this before. Using Sawyer Spray (not soaking) I treated the bottom material where the back and elbows come in contact with the Hammock, Several days later I tested it on a hot night and my best guess ... by capillary action I sweated into the the material ... I was itching my back for a month. I know this product is sprayed on horses and cows and I am sharing with you the stuff itches like the devil, if it gets into your skin. Maybe not everyone has a reaction - but I did.

Draw your own conclusions, it hasn't happened since. There is a clause in the Label - wash skin for 20 minutes if exposed. I am asking everyone to be very careful when doing the treatment. Please wear gloves - As I was using the spray I used a pesticide rated mask from Home Despot.

everyone - please do not get this twisted - Lyme - Encephalitis - West Nile - treat your clothes - but do it safely - follow the directions.

[ChinMusic]

There is a clause in the Label - wash skin for 20 minutes if exposed. I am asking everyone to be very careful when doing the treatment. Please wear gloves

Yes, while in liquid form you need to protect your skin. The "wash skin for 20 minutes" part is for the liquid state.

Again, the military instructions for not treating undergarments is for economics.

[jeffmeh]

http://www.amazon.com/Durvet-Inc-Permethrin-10%25-32oz/dp/B00061MSS0/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1401103425&sr=8-3&keywords=martins+permethrin

[Turk6177]

I did not spray my backpack. I did spray my tent and ground cloth, but not my rain fly. I figure the bugs would have to cross one of those barriers and get through the net to get to me. I would recommend buying one of the mosquito head nets that has already been treated, or treat your own. I would also spray your camp clothes. Once you stop hiking for the day and throw on your camp clothes, the last thing you want is to become mosquito food. I don't see the need to spray your sleeping bag, air mattress or backpack. The clothes on your back is as far from your skin as you need to protect. I hiked in the 100 mile Wilderness last June and found the permetherin really did its job well. The one time my legs were exposed in camp, my calves were eaten alive. It was warm so I left my permetherin treated thermal layer bottoms at home. Had I brought them, I could have worn them in camp and the mosquitoes would have left me alone. The only skin exposed was completely attacked. 27129

[Rain Man]

NOT a permethrin expert, but here is stuff I've picked up along the way:

Sawyer's online video (http://vimeo.com/39012753) -- straight from the horse's mouth. Good info.

Where I get my bulk permethrin online - www.bugspray.com (http://bugspray.com/). Be careful about buying the farmyard stuff intended for livestock as it's petroleum based and has a strong pertroleum odor. Buy the "household" stuff intended for use in the home. It's water based and low odor. "Martin's" is the brand I buy.

Warning, in liquid form permethrin will kill cats and fish and is harmful to humans. Once dry, it's safe.

I dilute to .5% (that's one-half of one percent) to make one gallon of solution and soak my clothing (including non-waterproof gaiters) for at least two hours, often over-night in a five-gallon bucket. I definitely use gloves. I wring out the excess in the bucket, then roll up each item of the clothing in an old towel (to avoid dripping once hung), then hang in my garage for a day to dry. I use the excess in a spray bottle to spray hammock, shoes, pack, whatever.

I do not soak my pack, nor spray anything waterproof, as the permethrin needs to soak in and bond to the fabric threads. Waterproofing prevents that.

I soak my longjohns, because they are my "pajamas" on the trail, and when answering the call of nature during the night, I don't want to bring ticks back into my hammock with me. I have a friend who brought a black widow spider back into his tent. Not so good.

I do soak my underwear, but after getting a rash around my ankles on a recent trip, chose not to soak my socks this time. Could have been heat rash, so I'm still in the experimental stage with socks. They certainly take the longest to dry, so I'm wondering if maybe they simply did not get all the way dry that one time.

Rain Man

.

[ChinMusic]

Good post Rain Man

[Wise Old Owl]

Guys I would not recommend soaking underwear! Your sweat will re-energise the synthetic pyrethroid into the skin.

Although insects are sodium based nervous systems and this repellent is a targeted approach, Mammals and Humans are Sodium/Potassium based, again it causes in some people, rashes and itching that will last for a month. This isn't pyrethrum.

Permethrin receives an EPA toxicity class rating of II or III (I = most toxic, IV = least toxic), and carries either the word WARNING or CAUTION on its label, depending on the formulation. While it is not extremely toxic to humans, there are numerous reports of transient skin, eye and respiratory irritation. Like all pyrethroids, permethrin is a central nervous system poison. Workers and researchers report tingling in face and hands, and some report allergic reactions. Based on studies demonstrating carcinogenicity, EPA ranks permethrin as a class C, or possible human carcinogen (U.S. EPA, 1997). Other studies have shown effects on the immune system, enlarged livers and at high doses, decreased female fertility and endocrine disruption. Permethrin is extremely toxic to aquatic life, bees and other wildlife. It should not be applied in crops or weeds where foraging may occur (ETN, Permethrin, 1996).

[ChinMusic]

My socks and skivvies were permethrin treated from Damascus to Katahdin last year. I can assure you that those items were soaked with sweat much of the time.

Different folks have allergies/intolerances to many things. Some folks can't wear wool.

Again, the military does not treat undergarments for economics.

[Odd Man Out]

...Be careful about buying the farmyard stuff intended for livestock as it's petroleum based and has a strong pertroleum odor...

I checked the farm stores. In the horse care section they had some 10% Permethrin that looked as if it did not have a petroleum base. Some of the 10% clearly were labeled as petroleum based, but this was not and was advertised as odor free. It may be possible to get a non-petroleum based concentrate. Again, it's hard to know without getting into the product. I ended up getting the Sawyers brand at Cabela's on sale. The 10% gave lots more product for only a little more money, but since I didn't need that much, I saved the money.

[bamboo bob]

i had a treated shirt in 2012 in VA and i sweated like a pig and my shirt gave me a very bad rash. It was the only one I had and Dutchhaus gave me a cotton shirt to hang around in. That was bliss.

[BuckeyeBill]

How many times will I be able to wash the clothes before I have to retreat the clothing? Will soaking last longer than the spray application? Thanks in advance.

[Rocket Jones]

I've heard the treatment will last a dozen washings. I've also heard it'll last an entire season of hiking. I do my clothes and hat every Spring.

[stillatit]

So many are jumping on the permethrin bandwagon. I noticed too how the army's use has affected some here. Sure, it's convenient against the bugs. So was Agent Orange to the army. It took years to find out just how harmful it was and the aftereffects have been terrible. Here's something to consider from the wiki author(s) who, of course, first duly notes that it is not supposed to be harmful to humans:

Permethrin does not present any notable genotoxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genotoxicity) or immunotoxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunotoxicity) in humans and farm animals, but is classified by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency) (EPA) as a likely human carcinogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogen), based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumor).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-18) Carcinogenic action in nasal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nose) mucosal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucosal) cells due toinhalation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhalation) exposure is suspected, due to observed genotoxicity in human tissue samples, and in rat livers the evidence of increased pre-neoplastic (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pre-neoplastic&action=edit&redlink=1) lesions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesion) raises concern over oral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_administration) exposure.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-19)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-20)

Why is it so immediately harmful to cats and fish? What will the future tell us about the inevitable unforeseen negative consequences of this chemical? Just some thoughts...

[Rain Man]

So many are jumping on the permethrin bandwagon. I noticed too how the army's use has affected some here. Sure, it's convenient against the bugs. So was Agent Orange to the army. ... Just some thoughts...


Permethrin receives an EPA toxicity class rating of II or III (I = most toxic, IV = least toxic), and carries either the word WARNING or CAUTION on its label, depending on the formulation. While it is not extremely toxic to humans, [B]there are numerous reports of transient skin, eye and respiratory irritation. ...

I agree that using permethrin is a choice that involves actual risks. I do choose to use the lowest concentration recommended (not all do) and to let dry thoroughly. As I soak rather than spray, I do not use a mask, but perhaps I should.

Anyway, thanks for the intelligent cautions.

Rain Man

.

[Ercoupe]

I use Bonide brand ,Water based Permerthrin. Diluted to .5 %. They have a great website you can plug your zip code into to find nearest dealers.

I will spray all outer clothing and socks, the net on my tent. Never thought to spray the backpack, but that is a good idea, since it comes into the tent with me.

[TrippLite]

So many are jumping on the permethrin bandwagon. I noticed too how the army's use has affected some here. Sure, it's convenient against the bugs. So was Agent Orange to the army. It took years to find out just how harmful it was and the aftereffects have been terrible. Here's something to consider from the wiki author(s) who, of course, first duly notes that it is not supposed to be harmful to humans:

Permethrin does not present any notable genotoxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genotoxicity) or immunotoxicity (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immunotoxicity) in humans and farm animals, but is classified by the United States Environmental Protection Agency (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Environmental_Protection_Agency) (EPA) as a likely human carcinogen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carcinogen), based on reproducible studies in which mice fed permethrin developed liver and lung tumors (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tumor).[18] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-18) Carcinogenic action in nasal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_nose)mucosal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mucosal) cells due toinhalation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inhalation) exposure is suspected, due to observed genotoxicity in human tissue samples, and in rat livers the evidence of increased pre-neoplastic (http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Pre-neoplastic&action=edit&redlink=1)lesions (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesion) raises concern over oral (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oral_administration) exposure.[19] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-19)[20] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permethrin#cite_note-20)

Why is it so immediately harmful to cats and fish? What will the future tell us about the inevitable unforeseen negative consequences of this chemical? Just some thoughts...


Happy Memorial Day, the day after !

The International Agency for Research on Cancer has concluded that permethrin is unclassifiable as to its carcinogenicity to humans
(IARC, 1991).
YES...In 1999 the EPA stated it believes that Permethrin is carcinogenic, however the EPA has failed as of date to provide any supporting data. As for now it is a case of I believe ....you believe...they believe
EPA beliefs were founded from controlled study whereas rats/mice were fed daily dosage (oral consumption) of Permethrin and not by skin absorption or inhalation. So what I gather from quoted post above is we should not eat what we treat. Fair enough
Comparing agent orange to Permethrin is like comparing apples to oranges.....

Why is it that a cat can eat a leaf and it be toxic to them? Cats are a very sensitive creature to say the least. Cats liver do not break down enzymes and Permethrin is easily absorbed through a cat's skin affecting the central nervous system, unlike humans a cats sodium channels are reversed causing rapid firing of the nerves resulting in seizures.

Ironically enough, scabies and lice treatment creams and ointments contain Permethrin as an active ingredient... Chances are your shampoo has Permethrin in it as it is an ingredient in found some shampoos.

Permethrin has a low human toxicity and is poorly absorbed thru the skin and rapidly inactivated by the body.
Ref.. " University of Conn" 2006

In response to earlier post pertaining to workers complaints..
Studies done whereas workers complained of tingly, itchy, burning skin were conducted in 1982 and these workers were exposed to Permethrin for a 6 hour period of time. Within 24 hrs of workers being removed from exposure to Permethrin their conditions returned to normal.

As ChinMusic stated earlier, Permethrin is not going to be user friendly to everyone due to allergies and the condition of ones health. I know people that get rashes from using certain laundry detergents, go figure.
However, Permethrin is a pesticide and one should read the warning label and use caution when applying.