Tipi Question - Expeditions with Lots of Food

[Sparrow2013]

Curiosity question. Given that some of your multi-week trips begin with 45-65 pounds of food, do you hang any or all of it to keep away from smaller animals or bears if you are in those areas? Do you do these same expedition trips in any National Parks where they require bear canisters, and if so, do you do the same type of expedition trips and use two canisters?

[Tipi Walter]

I used to carry a bear line with a carabiner to hang my food but with 45-50lbs of the stuff it was difficult to get any height due to the friction of the cord against the tree branch. I was lucky to get the combined 3 food bags any more than chest high. Not good enough for a marauding bear. And a couple times mice even ran up the tree and across the branch and down the cord to chew holes in my food sacks.

Depending on where I go---like I would never keep my food overnight with me in the GSMNP---I usually keep my heavy food bags in the tent vestibule with me at all times in camp. This seems to work from the Cohuttas in Georgia all the way to Mt Rogers in Virginia. But I do not recommend others to do the same thing and instead encourage "regular" weekend backpackers to bear hang their food as why not? Their food load is light.

It would be possible to get a 3 week supply of food into 2 or 3 BearVault 500 type containers but I'd need at least 5---way too heavy and bulky. Plus, I rarely backpack in NP's as they just have too many restrictions and fees, and often want to know where I am camping every night at designated sites---an impossible policy for a trip of 21 days. The creeks could rise, I could get sick, I may want to pull a zero in an unscheduled rainstorm, etc etc. Nobody knows where they will be on Day 15 of such a trip.

I had a raccoon grab a food bag at night when it was on the ground in camp and dragged it down to a creek and proceeded to pull everything out and eat my block of cream cheese. Another time a skunk ate some food by my sleeping head and stuck his head in the tent to say hello, then continued eating. Friendly sort.

But the biggest problem I have is with mice---they are everywhere in the Southeast. So, for the last several years I've been carrying a light plastic mouse trap which I sit in my tent vestibule and this limits their pesky activity.

FINALLY---one of the best things a person can do if they plan a long backpacking trip w/o resupply is to get a good quality dehydrator and dry everything at home. This will lighten your food load considerably and if done methodically would even possibly allow a 3 week supply to fit into 2 bear vaults. But get a dryer which encourages bulk drying---and not one of those small round white plastic products. Something like this---

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Test-Gallery-For-Trip-150/i-LjzZh9K/0/L/TRIP%20150%20005-L.jpg

[Sparrow2013]

Thanks. I'm planning my thru of the JMT with 3 of the standard resupply points which got me wondering how it would even be possible Tipi style with the bear canister restrictions. Have not yet made the leap to home dehydrating. That's soon.

[Tipi Walter]

Thanks. I'm planning my thru of the JMT with 3 of the standard resupply points which got me wondering how it would even be possible Tipi style with the bear canister restrictions. Have not yet made the leap to home dehydrating. That's soon.

Big blocks of free time encourages a backpacker to think about pulling an "expedition" trip with one food load but it has the usual caveats---the main one being the heavier overall pack weight will shorten your daily mileages. So of course for long trail thruhiker types it's a no-go as they have to make the miles to complete their hike and so depend on frequent resupplies.

The most I've ever done with a big no-supply pack is 18 miles in one day---and on my most recent trip I managed to pull a long hot 14 mile day with serious weight. A healthy human with a big "expedition" pack in the 75-85lb range should have no problem pulling 8 to 10 mile days on a regular basis. Or more. It's not overly "fun" but the pack does get much lighter day-by-day and you will never have to enter a town or engage in commerce or handle folding money or see a car or even associate with "non-backpackers" which to me is a huge relief and the whole point of going outdoors. We've all been to a town, as Jeremiah Johnson says.

[Odd Man Out]

Big blocks of free time encourages a backpacker to think about pulling an "expedition" trip with one food load but it has the usual caveats---the main one being the heavier overall pack weight will shorten your daily mileages. So of course for long trail thruhiker types it's a no-go as they have to make the miles to complete their hike and so depend on frequent resupplies.

The most I've ever done with a big no-supply pack is 18 miles in one day---and on my most recent trip I managed to pull a long hot 14 mile day with serious weight. A healthy human with a big "expedition" pack in the 75-85lb range should have no problem pulling 8 to 10 mile days on a regular basis. Or more. It's not overly "fun" but the pack does get much lighter day-by-day and you will never have to enter a town or engage in commerce or handle folding money or see a car or even associate with "non-backpackers" which to me is a huge relief and the whole point of going outdoors. We've all been to a town, as Jeremiah Johnson says.

There is a lot of discussion about speed records, but one I don't hear discussed much are distance records, that is how far one can hike with no resupply (let's assume you are not hunting/fishing/browsing). One might take a "fast and light" strategy, or one might take a "slow and steady" strategy. I'm not so much interested in records, per se, but I am curious in how many miles can you go without resupply using that slow and steady strategy.

[Tipi Walter]

There is a lot of discussion about speed records, but one I don't hear discussed much are distance records, that is how far one can hike with no resupply (let's assume you are not hunting/fishing/browsing). One might take a "fast and light" strategy, or one might take a "slow and steady" strategy. I'm not so much interested in records, per se, but I am curious in how many miles can you go without resupply using that slow and steady strategy.

Assuming a person wants to do 10 mpd with an 85lb pack, and with a zero in-tent day once a week, you could get about 180 miles on a 21 day trip (with 1 zero day per week). Or with 5mpd---90 miles in 21 days. Either/or, whichever is best is highly dependent on conditions, weather, blizzards, postholing, age and desires. But even with just 5 miles per day a backpacker will see alot of trails and finish some decent wilderness loops.

In other words---pick a spot like Dolly Sods or Big Frog/Cohutta or Mt Rogers or Pisgah NF Wilson Creek and get the necessary maps and just set out with a 21 day pack and come out after thoroughly exploring the entire area---and maybe twice. It's one thing to hike a trail in one direction and it's another to hike it back the other way---both are good. And different.

The better number in my mind is not how many miles you can go w/o resupply, but how many days a person can stay out w/o resupply. My longest was 24 days in January 2014 and this was with a heavier winter load during a "polar vortex" so my pack approached 100lbs. And as a rule I like to move every day and try to avoid zero tent days as much as possible unless I'm caught in terrible conditions.

Many people think going 5 or 7 miles a day every day is "basecamping" and not really hiking but they have never humped 85lbs for 5 miles (it's hiking, folks) and do not understand the definition of basecamping i.e.---Setting up camp once and not moving for the rest of the trip except to exit. While this type of basecamping is useful with gatherings of fellow backpackers, around a campfire, it's not my style of backpacking as I like to keep moving every day. It breaks up the monotony and satisfies the thirst for new vistas.

[Old Hiker]

Tipi,

As I started reading this thread, I started having questions and you pretty much answered them. I appreciate your contributions to WhiteBlaze - it's refreshing to see someone who isn't a UL acolyte, but has his own agenda and method. Those winter excursions are ALWAYS interesting to read about.

Few questions, though: do you stay on existing trails or do you bushwhack? Combo of both depending on the area? Move off trail a ways to camp?

Thanks.

[colorado_rob]

Thanks. I'm planning my thru of the JMT with 3 of the standard resupply points which got me wondering how it would even be possible Tipi style with the bear canister restrictions. Have not yet made the leap to home dehydrating. That's soon. We hiked the JMT with just one bear canister each (the 700 CI version), no sweat, using resupply at Bishop and Reds Meadow (NOBO). 7 days barely fits, plus you can carry the first day outside the canister (since the canister is only needed at night), meaning 8-days worth of food can be carried with one canister. You gotta really pack it tight, meaning well organized because you don't want to have to re-pack it on the trail (until after the 2nd or 3rd day and you have room).

I sure wish I had the patience to try home dehydrating... thanks for the encouragement, Tipi. Gotta go there; mountain house and other brands are edible, but not, er, good.

The 2-3 week non-resupplied trips I go on are on high mountains where critters are not a problem, well, except Ravens in places, meaning we bury our food in the snow for protection from those.

[Tipi Walter]

Tipi,

Few questions, though: do you stay on existing trails or do you bushwhack? Combo of both depending on the area? Move off trail a ways to camp?

Thanks.

Both trail hiking and bushwacking are a-okay in my book, although geography makes a huge difference ergo CDT backpackers do alot of "bushwacking" or off trail hiking because they have good line-of-sight, whereas in the Southeast you'd be tested to do any amount of thicket bushwacking with an 80lb pack. In my youth much of my backpacking was done off-trail, even with a big pack, in an effort to thoroughly explore a given area and using existing trails to set a pattern for off-trail excursions. And of course youth is crazy anyway.

One time I was backpacking thru Lost Valley with no existing trails, the creek up the valley was the trail, and when I went thru the low rhododendron forest next to the creek several clevis pins were pulled out by the brush and I ended up with my external frame packbag hanging partially off the frame at the next reststop. Not good.

Then again, if a person backpacks certain areas like the Cherokee or the Nantahala NFs he'll be promised long bouts of bushwacking even on established trails due to lack of maintenance. So, for this reason I carry hand pruners and a Corona folding saw to open up these crappy trails. Everyone should carry a pair of pruners just to clip briars and sawbriars as they hike.

[Tipi Walter]

We hiked the JMT with just one bear canister each (the 700 CI version), no sweat, using resupply at Bishop and Reds Meadow (NOBO). 7 days barely fits, plus you can carry the first day outside the canister (since the canister is only needed at night), meaning 8-days worth of food can be carried with one canister. You gotta really pack it tight, meaning well organized because you don't want to have to re-pack it on the trail (until after the 2nd or 3rd day and you have room).

I sure wish I had the patience to try home dehydrating... thanks for the encouragement, Tipi. Gotta go there; mountain house and other brands are edible, but not, er, good.

The 2-3 week non-resupplied trips I go on are on high mountains where critters are not a problem, well, except Ravens in places, meaning we bury our food in the snow for protection from those.

I'd have problems with a bear canister as much of my foods that are not dehydrated are nut butters, honey and jam which are stored in lightweight plastic containers, as shown below. Since I'm going thru another Vegan phase---with no eggs or dairy or meat---I depend more on my favored nut butters for on-trail sustenance. Think cashew, almond and peanut butter.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-Yellow-Mt/i-RXZTWsT/0/L/IMG_7893-L.jpg
Fellow backpacker Will Skelton took this pic as he wanted to see some of the food I haul. Behind me to the right are two big loaves of Ezekiel cinnamon raisin bread---it keeps and is excellent. All this kind of crap would be impossible to store in a bear vault. See the one lone red apple? Fresh fruit is heavy and I kept that baby with me for 8 days before eating.

[Venchka]

What is the brown pad under the wire rack in your dehydrator? Silpat or similar? What temp. Does your dehydrator operate at?

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

[Tipi Walter]

What is the brown pad under the wire rack in your dehydrator? Silpat or similar? What temp. Does your dehydrator operate at?

Wayne


Sent from somewhere around here.

The dryer is a TSM thing and the brown silicone sheets are from a different company cuz most of my drying is liquids like soups or blended brown rice with soups. And fruit smoothies. Anything wet like tomatoes goes on the sheets. Easily cleaned and almost stickless. I actually rarely use the wire racks alone except for apples or soysauge, etc, as they are harder to clean than the sheets.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-in-the-Snow/i-2xJnVG9/0/L/TRIP%20153%20051-L.jpg
Here's an example of something wet needing the silicone sheet. It's blended cooked brown rice with organic whole milk and dried to dry sheets and ziplocked. Brown rice is an excellent trail food but when cooked and dried and whole it reconstitutes poorly but if blended it works great. Now instead of milk I substitue packaged organic soups like butternut squash or tomato, and add some water to allow blender to work well.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/24-Days-in-the-Cold/i-6SGC3K6/0/L/TRIP%20152%20005-L.jpg
This is pure sweet potato soup after drying.

[colorado_rob]

I'd have problems with a bear canister as much of my foods that are not dehydrated are nut butters, honey and jam which are stored in lightweight plastic containers, as shown below... Well, since the OP is specifically talking about the JMT (revealed in post #3), the bear canister discussion is vital because canisters are absolutely required on the JMT. If you (Tipi) ever want to venture to this trail (and you should!), you would just have to resupply more often and also carry a very large (or 2) canisters.

[Just Bill]

There is a lot of discussion about speed records, but one I don't hear discussed much are distance records, that is how far one can hike with no resupply (let's assume you are not hunting/fishing/browsing). One might take a "fast and light" strategy, or one might take a "slow and steady" strategy. I'm not so much interested in records, per se, but I am curious in how many miles can you go without resupply using that slow and steady strategy.

As far as I know- Roman Dial's Artic 1000 (600 miles) in Alaska remains the longest and set out to answer your question.
http://backpackinglight.typepad.com/2006_arctic/

Coup- owner of GoLite also did some notable trails without resupply.

[Tipi Walter]

As far as I know- Roman Dial's Arctic 1000 (600 miles) in Alaska remains the longest and set out to answer your question.
http://backpackinglight.typepad.com/2006_arctic/

Coup- owner of GoLite also did some notable trails without resupply.

I remember taking this trip report out with me several years ago and reading thru it. Here's the big difference (other than vastly different locations)---I did 73 miles on my 24 day trip, they did 600 miles on their 23 day trip. Big difference. And of course I try to keep pulling repeat-long trips on a monthly basis.

I remember one Arctic 1000 post where one of the guys had to wrap his sleeping pad around his torso for warmth while hiking. Heck I just carry the extra weight of more clothing layers. Ergo Heavier Pack.

[Just Bill]

I would respectfully disagree with Tipi on the distance one could go, but agree with the time.
Due to caloric requirements while moving- I would say the low mileage (but moving when conditions allow) would be the way to achieve the longest time out. Personally I found a canoe the best (more enjoyable) way to do this, but highly admire Tipi's approach.

As far as distance; a fast and light seems to be the proven approach. Roman Dial being the best example, but on a more practical standpoint many LD hikers beat Tipi's estimates without being a badass like Roman. Many people do the 100 mile wilderness with no resupply. It's not horribly uncommon to find a hiker going 150mi without resupply.

With an asterisk my personal best is Springer to Hot Springs, about 275mi.(*Gave food to another hiker with a storm blowing in, replaced the food at NOC. Ate a meal at Standing Bear and finished with two meals-not trying to go resupply free- but it was easily in reach.) An established trail is a different deal I agree- a 200 mile bushwhack or poorly maintained area is obviously a different deal.

Tipi- I would never call you a basecamper. A disrespectful title for you indeed! You are a tramp, and that is the title I have always heard for your style of trip. No real goal, other than a loose scope of travel with the primary purpose being to be outdoors. The highest ideal to be self-sufficient, independent and free of all the entanglements of town. A worthy endeavor and honorable mode of travel.

All- Don't let Tipi fool you either- while not UL, he is certainly a lightweight hiker. 45-50 lbs of food is well within the established 2lbs per day. Even more noteworthy in that the food is wholesome, homemade, and healthy. (With the occasional fresh food included.)

Take away the monster pack weight penalty, his considerable store of books, radio, pruners and other luxury items and he's a pretty light hiker.
If he would widen his circle of trust a hair he may even be UL. He's definitely not the heavy hauler he seems, especially if you go apples to apples against his winter kit.

But then he wouldn't be Tipi if he didn't do what he's doing. Keep on keepin on fella!

[Tipi Walter]

All- Don't let Tipi fool you either- while not UL, he is certainly a lightweight hiker. 45-50 lbs of food is well within the established 2lbs per day. Even more noteworthy in that the food is wholesome, homemade, and healthy. (With the occasional fresh food included.)

Take away the monster pack weight penalty, his considerable store of books, radio, pruners and other luxury items and he's a pretty light hiker.
If he would widen his circle of trust a hair he may even be UL. He's definitely not the heavy hauler he seems, especially if you go apples to apples against his winter kit.



There is truth to the fact that the best gear is also the lightest. Point---my Western Mountaineering Puma -15F winter bag is very light for its rating---and very expensive. I carry the lightest white gas stove available---and now discontinued DUH---the MSR Simmerlite (and 44 ozs of fuel---ouch). In the summer I can get by for 21 days with less fuel but it's always nice to have extra cuz I might have to cook up pots of wild edibles if I lose all my food to a bear. Fix up a mess of poke greens, etc.

Beyond the food load and the light sleeping bag and pad, I carry some stuff that would kill an ultralighter---my pack empty is 8lbs 4oz and my tent while beloved is 8lbs 10ozs. So, do the math. And then I add the camera with its 5 extra batteries and the little radio with its 6 extra AA batts, and of course the kindling which I call my books---gotta have something to read (and burn). On my last trip I carried around 800 pages of typing paper printed on both sides and rolled up---see photo below. A standard package of typing paper is 500 sheets and is heavy---now add another 300 sheets.

But no kindle for me unless it can become Kindle-ling as I'd want to burn it.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-in-Solitude/i-8QxSGvg/0/L/TRIP%20130%20028-L.jpg
Seven rolls out of the usual 10 or 12---HEAVY. What's to read? Anything I find at home and bookmark which is interesting---mostly wikipedia stuff or backpacking blog stuff.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/17-Days-Tallassee-Mountain/i-68BHx2n/0/L/TRIP%20155%20237-L.jpg
And nowadays I don't go backpacking unless I carry my trail tools, as above, because most of the trails are in terrible shape. But when I come back a month later I can enjoy my work. These add extra weight but there's nothing much better than to be backpacking thru a briar and sawbriar field and clipping your way across. Why all backpackers don't carry hand pruners is beyond me.

[Just Bill]

Not to disparage your current methods- but have you ever had a chance to take a long canoe trip? Just curious as I would think it's right up a tramp like yourselves alley. 15 days in Quetico is the longest I've had the pleasure to pull- but other than the first day past customs and the last day returning- I didn't see a soul.
As far as wandering to your hearts content it's quite the place.
As far as hauling the gear- I'll take a mile long portage and 200lbs over 5-10 miles of humping your load. I would imagine a 30 day trip quite doable for a fella like yourself (if you could confine yourself to one Duluth bag of reading materials)

[Odd Man Out]

... The highest ideal to be self-sufficient, independent and free of all the entanglements of town. A worthy endeavor and honorable mode of travel....

I like this. I hardly qualify, but I find this kind of ideal attractive and it motivates me to get out there. I think about this when I read comments about AT hiking that "you should never carry more than three days of food at a time". I think why not? Just because you CAN resupply every three days, does it mean you SHOULD? I think you've articulated nicely one good reason for not being as UL as possible (which is sacrilegious to many).