View Full Version : Is the wood burning stove illogical nowadays?
Ricky&Jack
06-09-2014, 01:30
I have not bought/used a stove on the trails yet. But I was looking at research online about a possibility for my first stove purchase. (Sofar im leaning towards jetboil)... But I started thinking "what's wrong with a simple, portable wood/twig burning stove?
Is the wood burning stove pretty much dead nowadays?
I think i can make a coffee can wood burning stove for almost nothing (or even buy a small wood burning stove for little, as well).
Or i can spend $99 on something like a jetboil.
My question is, is there a reason to spend $99 on a fuel canister stove? Or does it make more since to buy/make a wood/twig burner?
(Lets pretend that small alcohol stoves/soda-can stoves don't exist).
Twig burner for relatively nothing? or $99 on a cannister stove? What would you do?
I have not used a wood stove so I can't remark on the convenience or lack thereof for using one. However, there is a middle ground between the extremes you mentioned! An MSR Pocket Rocket is $32 on Amazon, and around $30-$40 at many camping stores. Then buy a K-Mart grease pot for $7, and make a pot cozy out of a spare piece of a foam sleeping pad, or the shiny reflective material used for windshield shade screens. Add pot grippers if you really like luxury ;) for another $6 or so. Total cost, still less than half the Jetboil!
The high price of the Jetboil is due to the insulated mug and the fancy heat exchanger. The Jetboil does have a slightly faster boil time and slightly better efficiency compared to a bare bones canister stove like the Pocket Rocket. But for me it is not worth the extra weight and $$.
And I would like to stick with your main topic, ;) but why pretend that alcohol stoves don't exist? You can also make one for "relatively nothing," some of the designs are really easy to make, and if you are willing to collect twigs for a fire every day then the usual disadvantages of alcohol compared to canister (longer wait to boil, a little less convenient to use, etc) probably aren't too important for you :)
http://www.amazon.com/MSR-11792-Pocket-Rocket-Stove/dp/B000A8C5QE/
I used a wood stove (Sierra Zip stove) for a couple of years' section hikes. The main advantage of course is that you don't have to carry fuel. You can cook extravagant meals. You can even use it as a miniature personal campfire.
But there are downsides. You have to collect the fuel, start up the stove, and feed it continuously. All that takes time. It's dirty, and it'll turn your cookware black and sticky -- so it needs to be wrapped carefully before you stuff it back in your pack. It's just a lot of fuss and bother. And there are settings where it's just not cool to be starting a miniature wood fire.
You don't need to spend $100 on a stove. The Pocket Rocket (burner attachment) is $40. That's what I use these days. My Jetboil stove mostly sits at home.
Folks like their alcohol stoves but I could never make them work for me. There's no turning off the flame once it's lit. You get a limited burn time and have to make the most of it.
yellowsirocco
06-09-2014, 05:43
Look up the Fancy Feast Stove. It costs practically nothing, especially if you have a cat. Alcohol just requires lots of patience.
Rocket Jones
06-09-2014, 06:07
Another seldom mentioned advantage to alcohol stoves is that they're silent. I much prefer that to the jet-engine roar of a canister stove. I have a canister stove, but most of the time I use my SuperCat.
Tuckahoe
06-09-2014, 06:53
The best thing about a wood stove is that you can build one at little to no cost and then try it out. I did that myself, built a stove played with it for a while and realized that a wood stove would not work for me -- for many of the reasons stated by Rafe. But too many folks make them work and use them successfully.
I tend to agree with others as far as canister stoves. Check out MSR Pocket Rocket and Snow Peak Giga Power and get yourself in inexpensive Imusa 10 or 12 cm pot.
kayak karl
06-09-2014, 07:25
wood stove take some planning and patience, canister you get what you want when you want it. what type of person are you?
The Jetboil provides near instant gratification ... boiling water in a couple of minutes. I wouldn't have the patience to deal with a wood or alcohol stove personally but there are plenty of people who use alcohol stoves, and fewer using wood burners. I think that wood and alcohol stoves are fine for people who have lots of patience and aren't doing multiple boils per day. It wouldn't work for me since I usually boil water at least 3-4 times per day... twice for breakfast (oatmeal, and then coffee), usually mid morning for coffee, and then for dinner. Obviously with this usage patter a canister stove is needed and the Jetboil is the fastest and most fuel efficient that I know of.
garlic08
06-09-2014, 07:40
...what type of person are you?
This is as good an explanation as I've ever seen for the preponderance of gear choices out there! You gotta pick what suits your style.
My wife tried a wood burner on her '02 thru and she liked it OK for about 500 miles. Complaints were, in addition to those above, heavy smoke in crowded areas and failure of materials under repeated high temps. She didn't have to deal with fire bans that year, but that's becoming more of an issue in some areas. She switched to alcohol, then a few years later tried stoveless and likes that best now. We've both been tempted by the Jetboil at times, but price and fuel availability ruled it out for our hikes, but that's just our style.
I went through the progression of stoves. As i have shared with you before I started with a jetboil thought about wood stove,because fuel will always be availible. thought about making a coffee can stove and was told coffee can do not take the heat well and will evetually burn out. Went alcohol but finally settled on pocket rocket and snow peak pot. This is my go to...but all will work for you if you have patience knowing is some situations like wind or rain will slow cooking down considerably. It just depents what you want to do.
IF you do basecamp style trips with more camping and less hiking, a wood stove may not be the worst choice.
I'd be too tired/impatient to use one on a more hiking oriented trip personally.
Likeapuma
06-09-2014, 09:36
If you're just trying to decide for now, a Fancy Feast costs almost nothing. Worth the "investment", even if you choose to go a different route.
I found out about them & thought they sounded cool. I had no need for one, but made one for fun & it's been my go-to for all my weekend trips.
Slo-go'en
06-09-2014, 10:27
There are situations where a wood stove makes a lot of sense. I used one during an extended trip in the Canadian Rockies where traditional fuel like white gas or alcohol was not readily available. I used a Zip stove (this stove has a battery operated fan in the base to force air into the burn chamber) which fit into a quart sized stainless steel pot. The disadvantage was it was heavy at almost 2 pounds and bulky, but I was using a large external frame pack, so that wasn't a big issue.
In general, wood stoves are bulky and dirty. They have a big fiddle factor in that they need near constant attention. Since you can't use them in a shelter, if it's raining out you have a big problem. Along the AT, wood to burn is easy to find. Every shelter with a fire pit has plenty of small sticks laying around, often under the shelter roof so their dry. But you need a reliable way to quickly start the fire, which means carrying something like cotton balls soaked in petroleum jelly or cardboard soaked in wax.
Pretty much everyone who does use a wood stove also carries an alcohol stove as a back up for use in situations when the wood stove isn't usable. However, wood stoves are fun to play with and for a short one or two night trip can work out fine. Just be sure to practice with it at home first.
Old Hiker
06-09-2014, 10:40
Wal-Mart has a Primus (?) canister pocket stove for $20. I got one, just for the price and to try out because of the name brand. Haven't tried it yet and I'm pretty sure it was a Primus. Wally also has a Coleman that's pretty good as well. I bought some of those for my Scouts to use on AT section hikes.
I use a Pocket Rocket and other than one that had the threads stripped out (Scouts), I've been pleased.
In general, wood stoves are bulky and dirty. They have a big fiddle factor in that they need near constant attention. Since you can't use them in a shelter, if it's raining out you have a big problem.
I have used my Sierra Zip stove in a shelter, but it was mid-day and I was the only occupant. I was taking cover from a downpour and using it as a personal campfire. The Zip stove is as self-contained and safe as any other camp stove, so that's not a problem.
For thru-hikers, the emphasis is generally on making miles and a spartan, no-frills camp. Walk all day, stop, make dinner, go to sleep. Rinse and repeat. You want food prep quick and simple. If (as thru-hiker) you plan to use your stove more than once a day... forget the wood stove, it makes no sense at all.
A wood stove makes more sense where you're planning fewer miles and a more luxurious camp experience. Especially, say, if you're going to be hiking out of a particular base camp for more than a day, and with a friend or two.
Pedaling Fool
06-09-2014, 10:44
Everyone has an opinion.... http://www.leavenotracedude.com/lib-firestove.shtml Leave No Trace, Dude:rolleyes:
Buy one of these and see if you like it before you spend big bucks on a canister stove. I bought one last October and have used it a few times with no problems. People have questioned the reliability of such an inexpensive stove but so far nobody has come out and said "this stove failed while I was on a hiking trip." So far I like mine and haven't had any issuses..in the past I've always used alcohol stoves but figured for $6 and free shipping it would be worth a try. I will warn you that it rides the slow boat from China...I think I ordered it October 28th and received it in the mail just before New Years, though somebody said there was another seller of the same stove that shipped them from California. I was about 2 days away from asking for my money back...so just know that it could take a long time to get there.
http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpacking-Canister-Ignition-silvery/dp/B004U8CP88/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1402324612&sr=1-1&keywords=CHINESE+STOVE
Ricky&Jack
06-09-2014, 10:57
The reason I created this thread was because I was thinking "Is it weird/dumb that sticks are the most useful thing to burn, yet people buy stoves and fuel, instead'?
That seems like a cattle farmer going to walmart to buy hamburger patties.... You have a whole field of what you CAN use, for free. But little actually use it.
I was just making sure I wasnt thinking odd, and that there was a reason to use fuel stoves etc (which ya'll explained the faster time, less smoke, no smell etc)
...
My question is, is there a reason to spend $99 on a fuel canister stove? Or does it make more since to buy/make a wood/twig burner?
...
Twig burner for relatively nothing? or $99 on a cannister stove? What would you do?
I can tell you what I have done on 4 occasions. I still have all of the following in working order:
ESBIT folding tablet stove. Occasionally carried as back up. Unused so far.
SVEA 123 white gas. Stove, parts & fuel still around. Works in winter.
Gas canister - company and canisters long gone. I still have the stove & 4 canisters. I will use the fuel & toss the stove when the fuel runs out. Should last me about a month on some trail somewhere.
Coleman Peak I Apex white gas. Fuel still around. Parts not so much. No worries. These stoves are bulletproof. Lightest stove in my collection. Works in winter.
Primus Himalaya MFS. Burns white gas, kerosene & gas canisters. Parts & fuel alive and well. Will work anywhere on earth. Works in winter with the right fuel.
If I am camped somewhere where wood burning is permitted & I can find down dead wood, a small cook fire is easy. No reason to carry another stove.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it. :cool:
Wayne
I would say you can eliminate some of the disadvantages by getting a fold flat lightweight woodstove, eg. emberlit, firefly. However, they are competitive with even lightweight alcy stoves in the weight department, after you figure in fuel weight. Save time trying to get to the store for fuel, you will be easily able to find the small sticks needed. Even some bigger sticks can be used with a side feed wood burner. As for firestarter, it is lighter than carrying all the fuel needed to boil your water. You don't even need dish soap if you use a stainless steel or titanium pot, the white powdery ashes form the fire make soap when mixed with any gease still in your pot from the food you just cooked and ate. Don't do that with an aluminum pot though the lye in it will eat through your pot fast.
They still take more time to boil water. Honestly though what is a couple more minutes cooking your food? It doesn't take an extra 30 minutes just a few.
Ken
12trysomething
06-09-2014, 13:02
I just finished a 65 mile trip where we used my solo stove and supplemented it with alcohol. Different tools for different conditions and moods. Towards the end of part 2 and again at the beginning of part 3 you can see the solo stove in use.
Good luck!
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLkp7PuDBgnAGYHzK9uS70rf2iPY9yftqZ
Disclaimer: I make and sell wood stoves. They are beautiful and work great. :)
But to your question: Unless you are in a fire ban area or above tree line, a wood/twig stove can be a very effective choice. IMO, you should have the ability to use it with alcohol and/or Esbit, so you have another option if conditions really suck or you don't want to make a fire for some reason. You can DIY something or get a commercial or cottage industry wood stove. Try it out on some short trips before you commit to a longer trip. You will need to develop some fire skills (that are pretty easy to acquire) in order to be most efficient with your wood stove use.
HooKooDooKu
06-09-2014, 13:48
(Sofar im leaning towards jetboil)
A jetboil does one job very efficiently... boils water. But beyond that... it takes fiddling with.
The stove is pretty much either full on or off (the difference is about a 1/4 turn of the control knob). So it's not designed to simmer or slow cook what-so-ever.
Based on what I know now, if I were purchasing my first stove, I would start with the Oilcamp XTS stove (http://www.amazon.com/Olicamp-Hard-Anodized-XTS-1-Litre/dp/B007OJKI2U/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1402333738&sr=1-1&keywords=olicamp+xts+stove) and the Snow Peak LiteMax (http://www.campsaver.com/litemax-titanium-stove).
I recommend the Oilcamp because it's the only other stove I have heard of with the heat ex-changer build-in like the Jet Boil. I personally don't own an Oilcamp, but when its been mentioned on WB, I've never heard any major negatives (it gets 4-1/2 stars on Amazon).
I recommend the Snow Peak LiteMax for it's ability to fold into a tiny size, and because it seems to feel more stable than the MSR Pocket Rocket. I've owned both, and the LiteMax is what I carry for warm weather camping.
The other thing to consider is that canister stoves are between difficult and impossible to use in cold weather. As the temperature heads towards freezing, the fuel simply doesn't vaporize properly to keep the stove running. So if you plan to do some at or below freezing cooking, you might need to be able to use white gas. So while it might be a little heavier over-all, the other thing to possibly consider would be something like the MSR WhisperLite Universal (it works with canisters, white gas, and other stoves).
squeezebox
06-09-2014, 13:50
I'm thinking of a back up stove to a canister. but by the time you carry a tuna can drilled out, esbit tabs. or a coffee can wood stove with the sout issues,
maybe a spare 4 oz canister is a better backup ?
Your stories please.
Must consider below freezing temps issue.
I'm thinking of a back up stove to a canister. but by the time you carry a tuna can drilled out, esbit tabs. or a coffee can wood stove with the sout issues,
maybe a spare 4 oz canister is a better backup ?
Your stories please.
Must consider below freezing temps issue.
If all you're looking for is a backup, how about 3 metal tent stakes pushed partly in the ground to balance your pot on and then building a small fire under it? No need to carry a wood stove. If you don't want to fool with small twigs, how about carrying an esbit tablet and use the stakes to balance your pot? I have an esbit stove and really all there is to it is a folding piece of metal that acts as a pot stand. For that matter, if you don't have tent stakes you could just find two rocks to balance your pot on and build the fire between them. If you want to go the alcohol route the Fancy Feast is probably the lightest, but I made a stove from a soda can and a pocket knife and carried it for 700 miles...they don't have to be fancy (no pun intended), you just need a metal container to hold the alcohol.
An extra canister won't help you if your stove malfunctions and isn't working.
I paid $42.00 for my MSR Pocket Rocket back in November of 2005 I used on two AT thru-hikes and many many sections and other trails it has served me well with no complaints, before that i had a ZIP Stove i used on my 96 Flip-Flop thru which is a wood stove with an electric fan which worked fine but kinda annoying especially if it's wet or windy You got to remember open flame stoves such as Wood, Alcohol are becoming illegal especially on the west coast, so why don't you do your self a favor and get an Cannister stove that will last for many many years, and then you want have to deal with all those Hassles
Odd Man Out
06-09-2014, 15:26
As pointed out already, the JetBoil has is insulated and has a heat exchanger to make it extra efficient, hence the higher price.
There are backpacking pots that have heat exchangers that can be used with any stove. I have the OliCamp XTS pot which you can pick up for under $30. You can make a cozy using a reflectix car windshield shade from the dollar store and pair this with a cheap stove.
Another advantage of this strategy is you can use the same pot with a twig stove if you want (or an alcohol stove, if they actually existed). Lots of versatility. Less cost.
Just Bill
06-09-2014, 16:09
Canister stoves seem well covered- Although I prefer a snow peak or fire maple that let's you use a regular pot so your options aren't limited and you don't have to own separate pots.
The only thing I would add- if considering the "alternative" fuels (Wood, Esbit, alchy) Why limit your options?
(sorry QiWiz:))- But a Caldera Cone Ti-Tri can burn all three fuels for a reasonable price.
Crappy day- use some esbit. Nice day or not in a rush- use it in wood mode. Or more accurately- in the morning when you want to get moving- use an esbit to see you on your way and wood at dinner time when lounging. Your twig fire is easily converted into your campfire for the evenings entertainment.
Also- No rule against just cooking on a fire, no fan, batteries, TI or other parts needed.
I'm not a jetboil fan only because if a canister runs dry I don't have a pot along I can put directly in a fire-stoves break (rarely these days) but I've never heard of a pot failure so cooking on a fire is my backup. That said, as other have said- for what it does do there is none better.
I think I've tried everything. Wood stoves require dry wood which after two days of rain is not easy to locate. Whisperlites my standby and the one I've had the longest. Pocketrockets are nice too. Alcohol I just can't t down too much fuss in mildly cold or windyconditions. 5 days or less whisperlite.More I go with the pocket rocket. fits right in the pot with a bic.
rocketsocks
06-09-2014, 18:28
My Coleman feather light was/is messy, noisy, heavy, stinky, and a work horse.
My Sierra stove is "Hungry"...period!
My alcohol stove is delicate, and a mosquito burp will put out the flame.
My Pocket Rocket is the easyest thing I've used, reliable, light weight, quick, and fairly efficient. Can't help but say, I've always felt these wood stoves are nothing more than a pot stand. Really nice pot stands though, and they do work well.
SunnyWalker
06-09-2014, 20:12
I own a Caldera Cone w/Alcohol Stove, a Pocket Rocket, MSR Whisper Lite, and a Fire Fly. I am taking the Fire Fly (wood burning) on CDT in about a week for a thru. Go to:http://www.qiwiz.net/
Shutterbug
06-09-2014, 20:21
The reason I created this thread was because I was thinking "Is it weird/dumb that sticks are the most useful thing to burn, yet people buy stoves and fuel, instead'?
That seems like a cattle farmer going to walmart to buy hamburger patties.... You have a whole field of what you CAN use, for free. But little actually use it.
I was just making sure I wasnt thinking odd, and that there was a reason to use fuel stoves etc (which ya'll explained the faster time, less smoke, no smell etc)
The last time I hiked the 100 Mile Wilderness, it rained for three days straight. We could not find a dry twig anywhere. It was impossible to keep a wood fire going. I was glad I had my Jet Boil along.
(I am sorry for the double post. My computer hung up and I didn't think the first one posted.)
Shutterbug
06-09-2014, 20:24
The reason I created this thread was because I was thinking "Is it weird/dumb that sticks are the most useful thing to burn, yet people buy stoves and fuel, instead'?
That seems like a cattle farmer going to walmart to buy hamburger patties.... You have a whole field of what you CAN use, for free. But little actually use it.
I was just making sure I wasnt thinking odd, and that there was a reason to use fuel stoves etc (which ya'll explained the faster time, less smoke, no smell etc)
There is another reason. Sometimes one can't find dry wood. The last time I hiked the 100 Mile Wilderness, it rained for three days straight. We couldn't find a dry twig anywhere. It was impossible to keep a wood fire going. I was sure glad I had a Jet Boil along.
There is another reason. Sometimes one can't find dry wood. The last time I hiked the 100 Mile Wilderness, it rained for three days straight. We couldn't find a dry twig anywhere. It was impossible to keep a wood fire going. I was sure glad I had a Jet Boil along.
I don't know about a three-day-rain, but I learned how to deal with wet wood in my Zip stove. Put a bunch of (wet) twigs and a dollop of alcohol into a small ziploc bag. Shake it up good. Dump the drunken twigs into the stove and light up. I'd often carry a wad of birch bark as well, it makes a very good fire starter.
But now you're carrying fuel anyway (as emergency starter) which sort of goes against the basic premise of the thing...
There are places where the Zip is inappropriate. Eg., at Dan Quinn's barn in VT where you're not in the woods any more, and it's somebody's private space. Or an outdoor picnic table at a hostel, where a canister stove might cut it, but a Zip might not.
I have a Firefly wood stove (titanium fold flat) and love the little thing...but I also carry a alcohol stove for when I can't use the wood stove. I enjoy the relaxation factor of a fire, no rush, that is why I hike and camp, to get away from the rush!!
The only thing I would add- if considering the "alternative" fuels (Wood, Esbit, alchy) Why limit your options?
(sorry QiWiz:))- But a Caldera Cone Ti-Tri can burn all three fuels for a reasonable price.
I'm also a big fan of not limiting options and reasonable prices:
Ti Tri Multifuel System and Ti floor as ground shield for wood burning = $89.95 (Inferno insert not included, can get for another $40)
FireFly with FlexPort and MultiFuel system = $85.90 (titanium WindShield ground shield/wind shield, DualFuel burner, and pot support included)
While I'm at it, the FireFly system will work with more than one size pot, while the Ti Tri is pot-specific.
I just could not resist defending my baby :) - Just sayin . . .
Wood stoves are great, although you will have trouble finding any fuel at most shelters.
I have sat and watched children (sometimes not so young children) run around collecting every single piece of fuel, and then burning it all in huge bonfires.
But there's plenty of wood if you get away from shelters and popular campsites.
Wood stoves are great, although you will have trouble finding any fuel at most shelters.
I have sat and watched children (sometimes not so young children) run around collecting every single piece of fuel, and then burning it all in huge bonfires.
But there's plenty of wood if you get away from shelters and popular campsites.
I carried a Zip stove from Etna, NH to Bennington VT, and from the Hudson River (Bear Mtn.) to Great Barrington, MA. That's not my experience at all. Never had issues finding fuel at a shelter.
Wood stoves are great, although you will have trouble finding any fuel at most shelters.
I have sat and watched children (sometimes not so young children) run around collecting every single piece of fuel, and then burning it all in huge bonfires.
But there's plenty of wood if you get away from shelters and popular campsites.
I carried a Zip stove from Etna, NH to Bennington VT, and from the Hudson River (Bear Mtn.) to Great Barrington, MA. That's not my experience at all. Never had issues finding fuel at a shelter.
+1; +1
IMO you are both right, in the sense that wood of the caliber you might want for a fire in a fire ring or fireplace may be scarce in a frequently visited AT shelter area, but the small twigs you need for a FireFly or Zip stove can be found literally everywhere there are trees, including right around and even inside shelters. Under a shelter can often be a great place to find dry twigs after a rain BTW.
In 78 I hiked 15 straight days of rain. Try finding dry wood? Actually had to use sterno. But that was then and now we have options. Also how many shelters do you think were on the AT in 78. Ate a lot f peanut butter and cheese those 15days. Also drank a lot of whiskey. Anyway lots of goo ideas here.
gunner76
06-11-2014, 09:19
You can get a Ti Wood Burning stove from Tato gear for about $55, fold flat and weights about 5 ounces http://www.outdoortrailgear.com/store/#!/~/product/category=5487008&id=23387848. Lot of other choices on wood stoves.
You can also get clones of most of the big brand name canister stoves on Ebay and many for about $10 with shipping. Many even come with built in igniter.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Ultralight-Mini-Backpacking-Canister-Camp-Camping-Stove-Burner-w-Piezo-Ignition-/350661039798?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item51a506d6b6. ( I have bought 4 variations on EBay and they all work and when I have tested them under controlled conditions against their brand named version I find the time to boil water to be just a few seconds longer ( 10 to 20 seconds )
SunnyWalker
06-11-2014, 10:32
I carry one of those blue Walmart shopping bags. Towards dinner time I pull it out and start collecting little pieces of wood and twigs along trail. Then I am all set. If I fill the bag up I have enough for quick fire in the morning too. The weight of the Walmart bag is negligible and it comes in handy for other purposes also. I think you'd like a firefly. Check ot QiWiz'z products. He posted on this thread so it ought to be easy for you to look the Fire Fly over.
Another Kevin
06-11-2014, 14:27
For three seasons: Alcohol wins for me. My kit is a Penny Stove (modified with a priming dish, and a somewhat different jet pattern), a pot stand made out of aluminium rod stock, a wrap-around windscreen made from a dollar-store cookie sheet, a Grease Pot, a Lexan spork, and Reflectix cozies for a freezer bag and a Nalgene bottle. I boil 1-2 cups in the evening and 2-3 cups in the morning (hot dinner, and in the morning porridge, coffee, maybe even a second cup of coffee). The Nalgene bottle with the cozy is a nice big insulated coffee pot/mug.
Some of my hiking partners use wood, but I don't like having soot all over everything that then rubs off and makes all my gear smell like a campfire. If it weren't for that, I'd think the Firefly is one sweet piece of gear. Ultralight and no fuel weight.
If I might have to melt snow for water, then the fuel weight of the alcohol stove gets to be too much and I switch to a Whisperlite. Canister stoves don't work in cold weather.
My pot stand is robust enough that an open fire is my backup. I can use the pot stand like a trivet and use my poopoo trowel to scoop some hot coals from a campfire to put under it.
Some of my hiking partners use wood, but I don't like having soot all over everything that then rubs off and makes all my gear smell like a campfire. If it weren't for that, I'd think the Firefly is one sweet piece of gear. Ultralight and no fuel weight.
The easy way to deal with the soot issue of a wood stove: [1] dedicate a pot to wood burning OR use a titanium pot and burn off the soot when it's empty and you want to use it with some other type of fuel; [2] get or DIY a pot cozy (Reflectix works well for DIY, Antigravity gear makes them for most pots if you want to buy a cozy) and place your pot in a cozy to keep food warm after cooking, and use the cozy on your pot in your pack to keep any soot away from other stuff; [3] use a ziplock bag or pouch (for fold-flat wood stoves like the FireFly, Emberlit, Element, etc) or a light plastic bag (for stoves that don't fold flat) to store the stove in your pack. IMO soot is pretty much a non-issue, other than for Ti Tri Caldera Cones used to burn wood, where it's a little tricky not to get soot on your hands when packing the sooty cone into its caddy. YMMV. :)
Just Bill
06-12-2014, 11:39
QiWiz-
Full disclosure- I don't own your stove. That said, I feel a bit bad with my praise of the Ti-Tri and thought I'd propose a fairer comparison for your comment/review.
Forget Alchy- if that's what you want there are better ways to do it- nice bonus if you want to dabble I suppose.
Esbit- I believe this is fair- The Ti-Tri is the best esbit stove available. Period. I can routinely use almost half the fuel and it requires no additional parts or pieces. At around 34g for the cone and gram cracker, with foil sheet- it is the lightest. IMO- the Ti-tri is the best stove if Esbit is your primary fuel.
Wood-
While the Ti Tri has a wood mode, and can be used as Kevin suggested above as a trivet, it is not an exceptional wood stove. It also would require a ground shield and inferno insert at significant cost and minor weight impact.
Your stove(s) however are exceptional wood burners (I can see that well enough from reviews and videos despite not owning one). The ability to side feed, not have to "mulch" each little piece to feed, and the elevated base out of the box make it a much better design for this purpose. The Firefly is heavier, but only by gram weenie standards, not in any appreciable amount. Carrying just a few esbit tabs vs. zero fuel for the firefly would even it out.
extras-
Both stoves fold up and store well and come with a package that protects you from soot. You mentioned and I agree- in wood mode- yours would pack up cleaner.
Dual purpose use of the pot stand via tent stake is a nice option on the Ti-Tri- looks like an easy mod for your stove.
Ti-Tri comes with an alchy stove and Esbit stove in the package, Firefly comes with similar? (not a big deal for alchy)
add ons-
Inferno insert- works well, have seen it- but I passed on it personally.
Pot stands- Your pot options and ability to change pots is a huge advantage.
Grill accessory- also nice- it's not as unrealistic to carry fresh food as people believe- having a micro grill along is a very nice feature. I often freeze meat to eat on the first few nights- having an easy to use grill is nicer than coal cooking or packing in and out aluminum foil.
Baking- although it's easy enough to bake in anything- because of changing pot size and regulating fire easier the edge would have to go the firefly.
Bottom Line- Both great stoves.
Ti-Tri- very specialized piece of kit- bit like the JetBoil I suppose in that for what it does- it does it better than anyone. If your primary fuel is Esbit supplemented with found wood- very hard to beat. Has the ability to burn all three fuels easily out of the box. Also doubles as a windscreen for a canister stove in a pinch, and can function like a charcoal cone to start a fire on a windy wet day.
Huge Ding- One stove fits one pot. (technically you can use other pots in wood mode- but that's not really the point)
At $80 per stove- you better be very confident that the pot you plan to use is the pot you plan to use.
Also- certain models work with certain pots only- so a tall narrow pot may fit a classic, but to get a sidewinder you need a short wide pot.
The trade-off being- the perfect sized cone transfers heat more efficiently and uses less fuel at the cost of committing to one pot.
Firefly (and others)-
WORKS WITH ANY POT- big advantage, but add on the cost of the pot supports. Much more versatile system overall, and excellent choice when wood supplemented with Esbit is your fuel choice.
Not having to commit to a pot and getting "locked" in to the stove makes pulling the trigger an easier choice for folks of all ability levels.
I would imagine the firefly would also work well for starting a fire, although it looks like you would have to dump it out (handle the stove) more than simply picking up the cone and letting the coals drop out.
You fill in the rest of the good stuff:)
Ding- More parts and pieces, add on's, and options. Yes a good feature can also be bad, Ti-tri is a package out of the box(3 stoves, cone, windscreen, tyvek package).
On the other hand- to be fair- while the options make the initial purchase tricky, if you mess up or want a minor upgrade/change to the kit it is cheaper and easier.
Harder to clean? Not that big a deal I agree, but if you had some esbit build-up or other gunk there are more pieces and parts to clean up.
Bottom line?
If wood is your primary fuel, Firefly is the better stove.
If Esbit is your primary fuel- Ti-Tri.
If you have enough knowledge to pull the trigger on the exact model you want (especially for SUL applications)- Ti-Tri
If you are not sure or plan to use the stove with/on different groups/trips- Firefly
There is no "perfect" anything in regards to backpacking- only a list of pro's and con's that you have to balance against the style of trip you take.
I've had a chance to talk and interact with Rand at BPL and via-email- figured you deserve the same chance to discuss your products as well. I'm sure we all appreciate that you don't use the website to market the way other's have used BPL, but OTH, I don't know that I've seen you get a chance to directly compare/respond. As mentioned, I feel a bit bad because your products are well made, well thought out, and I personally dismiss them because my esbit heavy style leans towards the Ti-tri. But if folks are shopping for this type of stove they deserve the other side of the story (as well as others experiences).
Hope you don't mind and I didn't insult your baby too much- JB
SunnyWalker
06-12-2014, 15:13
Wet weather does not phase me in using a wood stove like Fire Fly.
QiWiz- Bottom line?
If wood is your primary fuel, FireFly is the better stove.
If Esbit is your primary fuel- Ti-Tri.
If you have enough knowledge to pull the trigger on the exact model you want (especially for SUL applications)- Ti-Tri
If you are not sure or plan to use the stove with/on different groups/trips- Firefly
There is no "perfect" anything in regards to backpacking- only a list of pro's and con's that you have to balance against the style of trip you take.
Hope you don't mind and I didn't insult your baby too much- JB
No offense taken. I think your analysis is right on, and I would not disagree in any important ways with any of it. I'm very familiar with the Caldera systems and actually own three of them, 2 Ti-Tri's and one aluminum cone for a Foster's can pot. I generally use Esbit when not cooking with wood, and (like you) always use a Caldera Cone system when my primary fuel is Esbit. For me these days, this would mostly be on longer trips out west where I may be above tree line and/or in a fire ban area. To be able to use wood in a pinch is a nice feature of the Ti-Tri and is (for me) enough of a reason to get a titanium rather than an aluminum Cone system. For example, I'll be through hiking the JMT in September and I'll be using a Ti-Tri system on that trip with Esbit.
Wood burning is a great option in most of the East (where I do most of my backpacking) and selected Western locations, as long as you are willing to work a bit on your fire skills and like the idea of fires and using free no-weight fuel you find as needed. I always have an Esbit tab or two when I'm out with the FireFly in case I don't want to make a fire for some reason, or the wood/weather conditions are really terrible. I can make my typical breakfast with a half-tab of Esbit, so it's not that unusual for me to make dinner with a fire in the FireFly and a quick breakfast the next morning with Esbit. I can do this for 4 days running with only 1 oz (two tabs) of Esbit. Not much of a weight penalty there.
Bottom line: I think both the Ti-Tri and FireFly are great stove systems and I personally like the flexibility of having both. Obviously not everyone wants to get that deep into a variety of cooking gear options. Not completely sure what I'd do if I had to buy/use only one system, but my gut says that in the East it would probably be the FireFly. and in the West it would probably be the Ti-Tri.
rocketsocks
06-12-2014, 15:38
Can't help but say, I've always felt these wood stoves are nothing more than a pot stand. Really nice pot stands though, and they do work well.
I too feel the need to explain further and to say, finding rocks along trails are not always available for building a cooking fire, prolly more times than not they won't be, then there's the keeping the wind out of a three rocks pot stand and triveting a slow cooking shaky pot, and who wants to go fussin around at dinner time lookin for somethin to set your pot on when your hungry and tired....not me! So to better answer the OP question...No, no ill logic when it comes to wood stoves.
...and mulling this over further, the part about being nothing more than a pot stand couldn't be further from the truth, they help to contain and bank coals, they by making it a more efficient fire, and likely safer as well.
...and I'll bet it's way lighter than any three rocks put together.
...and it looks way cool
does it come in different colors :D
open mouth insert foot.
ya ever say or write something that you read later and say "Man that was a little harsh" that's not what I think at all....I have :)
open mouth insert foot. ya ever say or write something that you read later and say "Man that was a little harsh" that's not what I think at all....I have :)
...and mulling this over further, the part about being nothing more than a pot stand couldn't be further from the truth, they help to contain and bank coals, they by making it a more efficient fire, and likely safer as well.
Yes, a wood burner concentrates heat, reduces fuel needs, makes a fire easier to start, and contains the fire making accidental spread less likely
...and I'll bet it's way lighter than any three rocks put together.
FireFly weighs 2.8 oz with FlexPort. Emberlit Mini, Element, Bush Buddy, Solo, and others weigh more but are still way lighter than rocks.
...and it looks way cool
Yes, a wood stove is really HOT !
does it come in different colors :D
Not when you first get it, BUT when titanium is heated by a wood fire, it develops an anodized layer in rainbow colors
27457
You can get a Ti Wood Burning stove from Tato gear for about $55, fold flat and weights about 5 ounces http://www.outdoortrailgear.com/store/#!/~/product/category=5487008&id=23387848. Lot of other choices on wood stoves.
I agree. Get a one piece folding wood burning stove like the one from tato. There are a few good ones to be found on the internet. Your wood burning experience will be much more enjoyable.
If you don't mind multiple piece, sooty hands and hassle, get one locally from;):D:
Find the LIGHT STUFF at QiWiz.net (http://QiWiz.net)
The lightest cathole trowels, wood burning stoves, windscreens, spatulas,
cooking options, titanium and aluminum pots, and buck saws on the planet
You can use alcohol as a backup when you need to melt snow to get some water for your meals. Watch and listen to Shug as he talks about using the Companion Alcohol Burner. It's contructed just like the famous no-spill StarLyte stove/burner.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiPp2ZvL3h8
rocketsocks
06-18-2014, 17:57
...and mulling this over further, the part about being nothing more than a pot stand couldn't be further from the truth, they help to contain and bank coals, they by making it a more efficient fire, and likely safer as well.
Yes, a wood burner concentrates heat, reduces fuel needs, makes a fire easier to start, and contains the fire making accidental spread less likely
...and I'll bet it's way lighter than any three rocks put together.
FireFly weighs 2.8 oz with FlexPort. Emberlit Mini, Element, Bush Buddy, Solo, and others weigh more but are still way lighter than rocks.
...and it looks way cool
Yes, a wood stove is really HOT !
does it come in different colors :D
Not when you first get it, BUT when titanium is heated by a wood fire, it develops an anodized layer in rainbow colors
27457
Awesome, I want one...added to my want list. :)
Just Bill
06-18-2014, 18:22
QiWiz-
Thanks for your candid responses!
Professor Hammock burns wood. Firebug he is:-)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83WfmgOjZXQ
birdygal
08-04-2014, 13:09
I bought the evernew stove, it can use wood, solid or alcohol I have only used alcohol in it so far, I figured having the extra option was well worth it
Gambit McCrae
08-04-2014, 14:48
Stained my evernew Ti Pot black and sticky. It stinks. Gotta find fuel, if its rained for 3 days...hard to do becaus eyou have to litterally sit there and feed it the whole time. I have used a small hay fire to boil water, I tried the one time with the wood stove and could even boil water in my back yard with it.
Tipi Walter
08-04-2014, 15:27
I have not bought/used a stove on the trails yet. But I was looking at research online about a possibility for my first stove purchase. (Sofar im leaning towards jetboil)... But I started thinking "what's wrong with a simple, portable wood/twig burning stove?
Is the wood burning stove pretty much dead nowadays?
I think i can make a coffee can wood burning stove for almost nothing (or even buy a small wood burning stove for little, as well).
Or i can spend $99 on something like a jetboil.
My question is, is there a reason to spend $99 on a fuel canister stove? Or does it make more since to buy/make a wood/twig burner?
(Lets pretend that small alcohol stoves/soda-can stoves don't exist).
Twig burner for relatively nothing? or $99 on a cannister stove? What would you do?
I've had a couple wood burners in the last 30+ years but the fiddle factor is just too much to deal with when the day gets late as Mags says or you don't have perfect conditions or you want to cook in your tent vestibule.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=27457&d=1403039355&thumb=1
This pic from QiWiz looks awesome but now throw in a 50mph windstorm in an open bald or in a long cold 3 day rainstorm (see below) or in a high wind blizzard. If I can't hunker in my tent and cook, well, it's a non-starter.
In general, wood stoves are bulky and dirty. They have a big fiddle factor in that they need near constant attention. Since you can't use them in a shelter, if it's raining out you have a big problem.
When you say "can't use them in a shelter", I'm assuming a tent:) Oh, and if it's raining out you have a big problem.
I think I've tried everything. Wood stoves require dry wood which after two days of rain is not easy to locate. Whisperlites my standby and the one I've had the longest. Pocketrockets are nice too. Alcohol I just can't t down too much fuss in mildly cold or windyconditions. 5 days or less whisperlite.More I go with the pocket rocket. fits right in the pot with a bic.
I too like my MSR Simmerlite and 22oz of white gas lasts me around 17 days.
The last time I hiked the 100 Mile Wilderness, it rained for three days straight. We could not find a dry twig anywhere. It was impossible to keep a wood fire going. I was glad I had my Jet Boil along.
In 78 I hiked 15 straight days of rain. Try finding dry wood? Actually had to use sterno. But that was then and now we have options. Also how many shelters do you think were on the AT in 78. Ate a lot f peanut butter and cheese those 15days. Also drank a lot of whiskey. Anyway lots of goo ideas here.
http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/10-Days-In-The-Cold/i-tvwTh7c/0/L/TRIP%20117%20083-L.jpg
Okay, you're on a mountain top in the winter, like this, and you just spent 30 minutes clearing a site for your tent/tarp---and there's a fierce cold wind blowing in at 0F amibients---now go find some twigs and sit outside your shelter for 20 or 30 minutes cooking dinner.
BTW, NO ONE should cook in their tent vestibule or in their tent . . . . . except me.
Buy one of these and see if you like it before you spend big bucks on a canister stove. I bought one last October and have used it a few times with no problems. People have questioned the reliability of such an inexpensive stove but so far nobody has come out and said "this stove failed while I was on a hiking trip." So far I like mine and haven't had any issuses..in the past I've always used alcohol stoves but figured for $6 and free shipping it would be worth a try. I will warn you that it rides the slow boat from China...I think I ordered it October 28th and received it in the mail just before New Years, though somebody said there was another seller of the same stove that shipped them from California. I was about 2 days away from asking for my money back...so just know that it could take a long time to get there.
http://www.amazon.com/Ultralight-Backpacking-Canister-Ignition-silvery/dp/B004U8CP88/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1402324612&sr=1-1&keywords=CHINESE+STOVE
I packed with one of these for about 3 weeks and I was impressed. I didn't get mine quite that cheap (paid about $12 shipped last year). Of course you will buy the stove several times in canisters, and you need to have access to canisters occasionally, but the instant gratification sure is nice on a cold rainy evening when you are worn out and just want to get water boiling for your noodles. In my 3 weeks, I never used up a full canister, but I only boil about 26 oz of water or less most days (includes coffee in the AM and some kind of dehydrated meal at night; i.e. mashed potatoes, noodles, Ramans, or a MH dinner). Most outfitters carry the canisters for about $5 and Walmart carries the slightly larger ones for $3.95. I usually carry a Bic lighter as backup in case the striker on the stove fails. This is not a bad option for the AT in most locations. Forget a $99 stove, as it would be a waste of good money. I've also done alcohol which is just a little bit more inconvienent but still an OK option. You have to be a lot more careful when it comes to safety.
Dedicated Hanger
08-04-2014, 17:41
Really enjoyed the responses and got quite a laugh off of some of them. Each and every responder has a good point...meaning there is not one that is perfect for everybody for every kind of cooking. I have taken it as my task in life to purchase one of each kind of back packing stove and have a mis-spent life of testing them in actual conditions. This could take years.....
rocketsocks
08-04-2014, 17:44
Really enjoyed the responses and got quite a laugh off of some of them. Each and every responder has a good point...meaning there is not one that is perfect for everybody for every kind of cooking. I have taken it as my task in life to purchase one of each kind of back packing stove and have a mis-spent life of testing them in actual conditions. This could take years.....
Awesome...go forth and feel invincible with your new toy, but more important...eat, drink and be merry! Bonaptite'
I've been using a firefly burner for about two years now, using it year round. I have the esbit adapter, which mostly gives me a degree of backup comfort -- I hardly ever use esbit...
Probably for the first year it was mostly stubbornness that kept me using the stove, but, over time my wood-choosing/fire starting skills have improved to the point where I actually look forward to using the stove at the end of the day and will continue to use it for sure.
In cold weather, when I would be reluctant to carry enough alcohol or esbit to boil water, and the extra wood burn time has not been a burden. I thought I'd have a chance to melt snow with it this winter, but alas, that will have to wait till next year.
Dedicated Hanger
08-05-2014, 11:48
Have taken 8 camping trips in a row this summer. They have ranged from primitive car camping with cooking for ten to absolute wilderness in which I did not see another human (besides the five people in my party) for a week. On each trip the food that I prepared was different. Wilderness is fairly easy, I only boil water for freeze dried food and make espresso with my little espresso maker. Anything else is too heavy to carry on your back for a week. Car camping and cooking for ten takes a different approach with fresh food for each meal. The general rule there has been to keep it simple and things that have to be kept cold to an absolute minimum. For all these trips I have completely switched over to alcohol stoves. With that said, I experimented with more than 10 of them and each one of them have their advantages and disadvantages. (All portable stoves are dangerous. There is not one that is fool proof and care must be taken every second with any type of combustible fuel in the woods. ) With all that said, all the cooking that I accomplished during those 8 trips with the alcohol stoves was simple and controllable each and every time. I did not have to purchase a bunch of throw away canisters, pump air into gas cylinders in the middle of cooking, fiddle with gas connections to make sure they didn't leak , or have to clean black off of pots. It all worked like a charm.
Probably for the first year it was mostly stubbornness that kept me using the stove, but, over time my wood-choosing/fire starting skills have improved to the point where I actually look forward to using the stove at the end of the day and will continue to use it for sure.
I love this comment from 1azarus. Stubbornness can be a wonderful thing. I have to agree that using a wood stove will definitely improve your fire skills, which are an important and extremely light part of a survival kit.
After years of just using canisters I got a Sidewinder ti-tri and love it. Three fuel options and, using the no-trace bottom plates, I can have a mini campfire almost anywhere.
Depending on where you hike a wood burning stove can be the most practical and sustainable.
Maybe not on the moon.