Military Sleep System, could it work?

[AfghanVet]

So, as a veteran, I have a complete military sleep system. It consists of all three sleep layers (though I'm lacking the compression sack, I could find a suitable alternative.) The lightest layer of the bag is rated at 30 degrees, if you add the mid-weight it rates to -10 and with all three rates to -30. The problem is the whole shebang weighs 12 pounds which is clearly too much for my pack but let's assume I get by with the lightweight system only. Do you think this is a suitable alternative to the expensive sleeping bags? I'm not sure of the individual layer weights though.

[Tipi Walter]

I used several military sleeping systems over the years and used the system you mention a couple times as warmth layers on different trips, and for others joining me. Remember the old Army feather bag with the brass zipper up the middle? We were dirtbagging it back in the early 1980's and the feather bag was the cheap bag of choice. Then the Army came out with the sleeping system of 3 bags sandwiched together.

For your system, all you can do is whip it out and try it in the backyard night by night. I've been known to carry too much weight but I'd never carry a 12lb system for winter when I can go to 0F or below with a good goose down 3.5lb bag. Costly, of course. But if you can't afford a good bag you can carry something else but it comes at the cost of weight and bulk. With enough weight and bulk a person can stay warm at -20F, he just has to carry it.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/BooneYears/Pisgah-Upper-Creek/i-Z4W4hjG/0/M/Johnny%20B%20in%20celo%20during%20a%20cold%20winte r%20night%20smaller%20%2091-M.jpg
Here's my buddy Johnny Be pulling a butt cold night in a friend's unheated house in Celo, NC, circa 1985. Caught him napping. We had a layover on our way into the Wilson Creek area of Pisgah NF. He's using the aforementioned Army feather bag.

[AfghanVet]

Excellent input, I appreciate it. I knew in my mind that 12 pounds was too much but individually broken down, they probably might not be too heavy. Of course, the military temperature system is different from the civilian one. I'm just trying to assemble the necessary equipment to be able to do an overnight or two day in the future to see how I can do. Tellico Plains man, that's a beautiful area and I do remember that old wool brass zipper setup.

[CalebJ]

I've used the combined system a decent bit. If you're just doing summer backpacking, the green bag isn't a bad option to save money on buying something new. The black bag and bivy are both ridiculously heavy compared to their COTS alternatives.

[Tipi Walter]

My friend Arrants is an old Korean War vet, '51, and we camp together occasionally along the Tellico River in an old cabin. He swears by his Army feather bag system as shown below, with a cotton "bivy bag" over the top. I laugh and call it his "canoe."

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2007/Camping-on-the-Rocky-Flats/i-3fJ6psW/0/L/TRIP%2070%20014-L.jpg


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2007/Camping-on-the-Rocky-Flats/i-fDTccWZ/0/L/TRIP%2070%20002-L.jpg
Arrants, still going strong.

[AfghanVet]

That's awesome, I guess it just depends on a) are you willing to invest in the new, lighter stuff b) are you tough enough or dumb enough to tough it out if you aren't. If you could from one brother to another (God, that sounds cheesy) pass a word along to Arrants and tell him I greatly appreciate his service.

[Feral Bill]

It's better to get out with sub-optimal gear than to stay home.

[AfghanVet]

That may be the clincher comment for me there. That's kind of my mindset and at the moment I'm just trying to get out there on a budget.

[Tipi Walter]

It's better to get out with sub-optimal gear than to stay home.

You're totally right. I've done several trips using my old USAF duffel bag, circa 1969, with the shoulder sling, and the dang thing loaded kept banging against my left leg and hip, but I WAS OUT!

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/The-Longest-Trip-at-23-Days/i-PWPdMGP/0/L/TRIP%20102%20%20OCTOBER-NOV%202009%20089-L.jpg
Boys Scouts are known for using sub optimal gear.

[rocketsocks]

That may be the clincher comment for me there. That's kind of my mindset and at the moment I'm just trying to get out there on a budget.It's taken me 25+ years to put together the kit I have now. some of it is now dated but still works, some of it I continue to upgrade, a work in progress if you will. It's nice to have nice gear and new technologies, but totally unnecessary for most outings not requiring specialized gear.

"Run what ya brung"
:welcomeand thanks for your service.

[tarditi]

the green "patrol bag" of the ECWS sleep system is quite comfortable and can be made significantly lighter when you remove the draft tube.

[lemon b]

My experience with military equipment is that it is not make for long distance hiking. Like I started my 78 thru wearing Jungle boots. They were quickly replaced. Military is often designed with air resupply in mind. Only item's I had when I hit Front Royal were my poncho and sleeping bag. Everything else got ditched or traded along the way.

[quasarr]

I suggest weighing the 30 degree layer (if you don't have a scale you can ask the post office to weigh it for you, they may think you are a little nuts but they will do it!) Then you can decide if it's worth it to invest in a new bag. There are some good options out there, like the Kelty Cosmic 20*, which costs around $150 and weighs 2.5 lbs. I think this is about your lowest price for a down sleeping bag.

You also say you just want to try it out for one or two nights, for that your 30F liner will be perfectly fine. I have seen the system you are talking about, and IMO a normal sleeping bag is generally better for backpacking. But for now there is no need to buy a new one.

[AfghanVet]

Not to hijack my own thread but here in the pawn shop we have a bunch of sleeping bags that came off of a pallet auction buy. The two in particular that I feel might be most appropriate are a Hi-Tec Elevation and a Suisse Sport Alpine, both mummy bags with polyester fill that claim 0 degree ratings. I've read a few reviews on the Suisse Sport Alpine but can't find anything on the Hi-Tec Elevation. Is there anyone with familiarity with these two bags or should I start a new thread?

[TrippLite]

Nothing wrong with the military sleep system except for weight and condensation issues with the bivy at times. I would weigh mine for you but it is out on loan. I break mine out when car camping and lend as a loaner.. Tennier Industries was making the systems for the military, not sure if this is the case now. You can find weight specs on their website.

http://www.tennierindustries.com/

[Umlaut Von Fluffbutt]

The sleep system is absolutely awesome for what it is. Although it is significantly heavier than civilian alternatives, it handles tons of abuse.

I was an infantryman with the 10th MTN for nearly a decade. There were plenty of times where all we had was the sleep system with goretex bivy and a poncho to call home. It was great waking up toasty to 2 feet of snow and having to dig your way out of the bag.

If you are used to using that system with a light weight tarp or poncho as a shelter, and don't mind carrying the extra weight, I say go for it. But if you are going on long treks, I would look at lighter civilian alternatives.

[RED-DOG]

GO for it Bro.

[Umlaut Von Fluffbutt]

BTW, to reduce condensation in the bag, you need to select the minimum amount of layers needed to keep warm. Additional layers will increase your warmth; therefore, increasing the condensation. Also, you have to keep your mouth and nose outside of the bag.

What helped me was sleeping naked with a hat on in extreme cold weather. I would keep my clothes and footwear down in the footbox of the bag to keep them warm and also reduce the open area inside the bag. I would also wear a scarf around my mouth and nose to keep me slightly warmer when my face was exposed to freezing temps. Kept the inside of the bag very dry.

[Another Kevin]

I used several military sleeping systems over the years and used the system you mention a couple times as warmth layers on different trips, and for others joining me. Remember the old Army feather bag with the brass zipper up the middle? We were dirtbagging it back in the early 1980's and the feather bag was the cheap bag of choice. Then the Army came out with the sleeping system of 3 bags sandwiched together.

TW, that makes me wonder: On your extended trips, what do you do to keep your down from wetting with condensation just from your regular body moisture and exhaled water vapor? I find that, even changing into dry stuff to sleep and never getting so warm that I perspire noticeably in the bag, I'm starting to wet the down after four nights or so in the field in winter. Do you line your bag with some sort of vapor barrier?

[coach lou]

My friend Arrants is an old Korean War vet, '51, and we camp together occasionally along the Tellico River in an old cabin. He swears by his Army feather bag system as shown below, with a cotton "bivy bag" over the top. I laugh and call it his "canoe."

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2007/Camping-on-the-Rocky-Flats/i-3fJ6psW/0/L/TRIP%2070%20014-L.jpg



Arrants, still going strong.

I carried this bag until I was 45....many miles...........It finally gave out and we left it in Montana, for my buddys dog house. It weighed 10lbs. but I was always warm and dry! M-1949!!!

[Tipi Walter]

The sleep system is absolutely awesome for what it is. Although it is significantly heavier than civilian alternatives, it handles tons of abuse.

I was an infantryman with the 10th MTN for nearly a decade. There were plenty of times where all we had was the sleep system with goretex bivy and a poncho to call home. It was great waking up toasty to 2 feet of snow and having to dig your way out of the bag.

If you are used to using that system with a light weight tarp or poncho as a shelter, and don't mind carrying the extra weight, I say go for it. But if you are going on long treks, I would look at lighter civilian alternatives.

SERE school, SF, 10th Mt---praise the vets. I had a buddy back in the 80's who was a First Sgt with 5th Group(SF) when it was at Bragg and I asked him why he and others didn't invest in some high quality gear for their winter patrols, like a decent light subzero sleeping bag. He cut me off, "That crap wouldn't last a week in the field." Amen, pass the beans and rice.


TW, that makes me wonder: On your extended trips, what do you do to keep your down from wetting with condensation just from your regular body moisture and exhaled water vapor? I find that, even changing into dry stuff to sleep and never getting so warm that I perspire noticeably in the bag, I'm starting to wet the down after four nights or so in the field in winter. Do you line your bag with some sort of vapor barrier?

** I use a large 36 sq ft double wall tent which ventilates well in the winter and no part of the inner tent touches my sleeping bag, especially at the foot end. This cuts down alot on bag shell wetness.

** In the right conditions (long cold nights with high humidity and snow on the ground), my tent will produce ample condensation which must be swabbed out with a towel to remove moisture, etc. Also the bag shell can be wiped off.

** A microfiber sleeping bag shell helps (or driloft/goretex, etc).

** A morning winter ritual is to hang the sleeping outside while I cook breakfast and in 30 minutes it's mostly dry, even at 0F under clouds. "Sublimates" or something.

** Can't stand vapor barriers---hate 'em. Clammy, claustrophobic.