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Sarcasm the elf
06-14-2014, 00:18
(This was originally written as a response to a recent thread, but I thought it justified it's own subject)

So here's the thing. Over the last decade or so I've found a peculiar and quite unexpected passion of mine; other people's passions.

I don't know what it is, but whenever I see someone who is truly driven by a love of a pursuit I can't help but support them. It doesn't matter if it's something I love such as hiking, or something that I have no interest in (for example) such as boat racing. When I meet someone that is obsessed with their own pursuit, who is driven by a love of what they are doing, and more importantly when they are actually doing it themselves, I can't help but get behind them. It doesn't matter if it's Snorkel trying to to set a pace of nearly 30 mile days on the A.T. or my good friends who run ultramarathon distances, often by themselves, or myself trying (failing) to reach a state of grace and flow while sparring, or my coworker who is working of a concourse restoration of a '67 Camaro or my old friend who is getting to the "rockstar" level of skill on the guitar, despite the fact that you will never hear him, or my little cousin's friends who are going nuts with acapella. Basically I can't help but be totally psyched when I see someone who is pursuing one of their own passions and absolutely rocking it by whatever standards they have set for themselves.

Sadly that is why it disappoints me so much whenever the subject of "what is a thruhike" is brought up on this site. The people I described above, and those that I support most are driven by a love of their own pursuits and that's what matter to them. One of the best runners I know has always sworn that the only opponent he has really raced is himself. So the question that always invades my mind whenever someone jumps on this site to say that they are the authority on thru hikes is: what the heck is is your weakness? Why do you need to validate your own accomplishment by trying to force others to abide by your own clearly unofficial and self appointed definition? If you thru hiked, then you thru hiked, it's a shi*load of an accomplishment, you earned it and nobody can take that away from you, so why are you being defensive?

Personally I love supporting people and if you say that your goal is to hike the whole A.T. while passing every white blaze and only using town stops for resupply, then good for you. You're psyched, and if you're passionate about it then i'm psyched too, because it's a hell of a goal and I want to see you succeed. But as soon as you start spouting off that this person or that person didn't do this or that because they didn't meet your personal criteria then you've lost me, and worse yet, it makes me think that you haven't learned anything from your journey.

One of the biggest things that backpacking has taught me is to be less petty and to stop judging people. It might be the 78 year old man who passes me at a crawl or the 19 year old with terrible gear and no knowledge, but I don't judge people or their goals on the trial because I've learned that they can always surprise and impress me.

I hate to say it, but if you need to denigrate the accomplishments of others in order to justify what you've done during your six month vacation, than you've clearly not learned enough from your experience.

You can keep trying to put down folks for what you see as imperfections in their trip, I will continue to support them in their own journey. So go Blue blazers, go yellow blazers and GO JOE GO! You'll all be better people for the effort and that's what counts.

Odd Man Out
06-14-2014, 00:50
Rule #1. Whoever has the most fun wins.
Rule #2. If you are arguing over the rules, you probably aren't having the most fun.

Teacher & Snacktime
06-14-2014, 00:55
You can keep trying to put down folks for what you see as imperfections in their trip, I will continue to support them in their own journey. So go Blue blazers, go yellow blazers and GO JOE GO! You'll all be better people for the effort and that's what counts.

+1

Here at Camp Toleration, intolerance will not be tolerated! (Hike your own hike - Live your own life)

Sarcasm the elf
06-14-2014, 01:02
+1

Here at Camp Toleration, intolerance will not be tolerated! (Hike your own hike - Live your own life)

Did I mention how good a time I had on our hike together? Watching you stop to show Snacktime the educational aspects of the trail was a highlight.

rafe
06-14-2014, 08:24
Elf: I thought the thread was calm and respectful. Most folks basically being open minded and tolerant. OP is a wide-eyed newb who's got the fever, bad. He asks good questions. Hits all the hot-button issues, one after another.

What the thread made me do was dig out my Philosophers Guide, the chapter called "Sapientia Callis." These issues we debate incessantly on Whiteblaze are as old as the hills we're trying to climb.

Then I googled "Sapientia Callis" -- cuz I never studied Latin, and I was only guessing at the meaning -- and this was the first hit:

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=448242

I wouldn't sell my copy for all the tea in China. I wish it were in the public domain so more people could read it. Just about every topic that's ever been debated here is covered in that chapter from 25 years ago.

Biggie Master
06-14-2014, 09:29
Excellent post Elf.

WingedMonkey
06-14-2014, 09:51
Better question might be, why do folks that have never and will never do a thru hike any way, seem to know what a thru-hike is?

magneto
06-14-2014, 10:36
It's worse than that, rafe. All of these same types of discussions and debates are repeated on boards that are dedicated to different passions, be it hiking, religion, aviation - whatever.

It's a really interesting phenomenon to study: the patterns and personalities are the same, only the subject matter changes.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rocketsocks
06-14-2014, 10:51
Nothin like a good screed in the morning to reflect on throughout the day...Thanks Elf! :)

Hikes in Rain
06-14-2014, 11:17
What the thread made me do was dig out my Philosophers Guide, the chapter called "Sapientia Callis." These issues we debate incessantly on Whiteblaze are as old as the hills we're trying to climb.

Then I googled "Sapientia Callis" -- cuz I never studied Latin, and I was only guessing at the meaning -- and this was the first hit:

http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=448242

I wouldn't sell my copy for all the tea in China. I wish it were in the public domain so more people could read it. Just about every topic that's ever been debated here is covered in that chapter from 25 years ago.

I've never had the opportunity to see a Guide, but did find this: http://atmuseum.org/Philosophers_guide_83.htm Is it close?

rafe
06-14-2014, 12:20
I've never had the opportunity to see a Guide, but did find this: http://atmuseum.org/Philosophers_guide_83.htm Is it close?

Nice find! Same guy, same tone, several years earlier. By 1990 it was a nicely type-set paperbound book, about 160 pages worth. Sapientia Callis is about 18 pages worth.

RockDoc
06-14-2014, 12:41
Regrettably, in our society there are really rather few people who genuinely follow their passions.

Teacher & Snacktime
06-14-2014, 12:43
Did I mention how good a time I had on our hike together? Watching you stop to show Snacktime the educational aspects of the trail was a highlight.

It's absolutely mutual here. I can't thank you and Kevin enough for your willingness to slow down and keep us company. You added camaraderie to the outing and made the "work" part fun. And then of course there was the rescue....:D. When I'm up and able again we're absolutely planning to finish, and hopefully we'll all get together again.

We hiked our own hike....it was fun.

RED-DOG
06-14-2014, 15:18
Better question might be, why do folks that have never and will never do a thru hike any way, seem to know what a thru-hike is?
I agree, I hate the people that only does like a one night quickie hike and does not make it to their original distination then come on WB and other forums and try and give advice to people that has more hiking exsperience than they do and in reality they really don't know what they are talking about so in my oppinion these types should stay off WB until they get some miles under their feet, and they know who they are. this is the biggest problem i have with WB, this is my WB RANT and RAVE.

Another Kevin
06-14-2014, 15:26
Back at ya, Elf, Teacher, Snacktime! For me hiking isn't about the trails, it's about the tales.

OK, I've been obsessing a little bit about the Catskill 3500-footers, but even that's more a catalogue of nifty places that I most want to get to. So far none of them, even the viewless ones, has really disappointed.

Hey, Elf, now that my time is loosening up for summer, wanna get out sometime while we're waiting for Teacher to heal up? (If you can tolerate a slow old man...) I have a couple of trips in mind that are within my personal risk tolerance to lead, but not to solo, and perennially have trouble lining up partners. This summer, it looks as if I'm free most weekends, and can extend to a three- or four-day weekend with a week's notice.

rafe
06-14-2014, 15:39
I agree, I hate the people that only does like a one night quickie hike and does not make it to their original distination then come on WB and other forums and try and give advice to people that has more hiking exsperience than they do and in reality they really don't know what they are talking about so in my oppinion these types should stay off WB until they get some miles under their feet, and they know who they are. this is the biggest problem i have with WB, this is my WB RANT and RAVE.

If folks are giving bad info, call it out. There's no requirement for folks to meet a certain skill level before posting on WhiteBlaze.

Tipi Walter
06-14-2014, 16:01
I agree, I hate the people that only does like a one night quickie hike and does not make it to their original distination then come on WB and other forums and try and give advice to people that has more hiking exsperience than they do and in reality they really don't know what they are talking about so in my oppinion these types should stay off WB until they get some miles under their feet, and they know who they are. this is the biggest problem i have with WB, this is my WB RANT and RAVE.

This not only happens with backpackers and their hiking suggestions, but with glowing gear reviews after a couple nights of use. The worst are those who set up a new tent in their living room and proclaim it to be the best tent ever made and able to withstand any weather. And then there are many tent reviews on backpackgeartest.org which applaud a shelter after just 6 to 10 days of total overnights with the thing. Sets up fast! No condensation! Floor doesn't leak! Handles the wind!

And the popular SectionHiker.com has numerous pieces of gear sent to him to test but in my opinion the quantity makes it almost impossible for him to do a thorough testing of single items and find the inevitable failures. This is thread drift I know but it seems to relate to how a lack of backpacking experience results in someone becoming a "whiteblaze expert."

Another Kevin
06-14-2014, 20:32
I agree, I hate the people that only does like a one night quickie hike and does not make it to their original distination then come on WB and other forums and try and give advice to people that has more hiking exsperience than they do and in reality they really don't know what they are talking about so in my oppinion these types should stay off WB until they get some miles under their feet, and they know who they are. this is the biggest problem i have with WB, this is my WB RANT and RAVE.

Since I'm always tempted to do that, I have a stock warning to the left of all my posts, right over my picture. :)

That said, I like to think I've learnt something in my fifty years of doing one-, two- or three-night quickie hikes, some of which make it to planned destinations and some of which don't. I'm entirely ignorant of how to manage twenty-mile days (I don't plan that kind of mileage, because I'm never on trail for long enough periods to work up to doing that comfortably) or what to do about resupply in Nowhere, Tennessee (because my trips are short enough that I carry everything). But things like how to pick out a stealth site, where to find water, or how to stay warm in 35 degree rain, are the same whether you're out for one night or a hundred.

Miner
06-14-2014, 21:55
If you don't feel like how you did your hike was the best possible way, then you did it wrong. Go back and do it over again to rectify that. So its natural to feel that your way was the best way for you. Where people make the mistake is extrapolating that to mean that the best possible way for everyone to do their hike is just like you did.

That said, I still think the guy I met carrying heavy cans of Chef Boyardee out of town for his resupply was doing his hike wrong. And I was never jealous of how it smelled cooking in the shelter as I ate my summer sausage withe cheese for the 4th night straight.

rocketsocks
06-15-2014, 16:20
Nothin like a good screed in the morning to reflect on throughout the day...Thanks Elf! :)
So having taken a long walk yesterday I actually thought about this subject. I had an friend who has since passed (older gentlemen) and a very smart man, and all around neat guy. Al was a model maker and designed the walk through heart at the Franklin institute in Philadelphia. The very first day I met him I was standing in line waiting my turn to view some minerals laid out on a table at a rock and mineral show, Al was seated next to the very slow progressing line a empty chair was next to him, he said, "Why don't you take a seat, yer not going anywhere" I did. He then asked "What are you interested in" I think I said something like, "Well this is pretty new to me, so I like it all" Then I asked him what he was interested in, he said "I'm interested in people who are interested in the things i'm interested in" That line always stuck with me, and could not have been more true, Al was a people person...I've since adopted that philosophy as well. That's the Passion.

Thinking about the purist side of my hiking endeavor, I've come to learn a new word as it applies to hiking...Style! I've never heard that word used before in that context before I started hanging around here in the hiking community. Did I have a style? sure I did, we all do. But I've come to the conclusion that I don't have to be pigeon holed into just one style. If I want to go slow, I go slow, if on a different trip I want to turn it up and burn it up, I can do that too, if I want to hike to camp (I like this style, and will likely settle into this, with some punching out to different parts) I do so. The point is no matter what your Style is, you can always change or tweak it to suit your needs for that trip. Just because you have invested in super ultralight gear, does not mean that every hike you take has to be of the nature, and respectively, if your normal load has you only doing 3 miles, nothing says you can't go on a hike and take only the very minimum of gear...loaf of bread and a poncho, it's your style your life, do what ever pulls your hearts strings...That to me is being a Purist.

WingedMonkey
06-15-2014, 17:26
But things like how to pick out a stealth site, where to find water, or how to stay warm in 35 degree rain, are the same whether you're out for one night or a hundred.

And many times you have shared that experience with others without even coming close to giving how to thru hike opinions.

I actually hope to some day do an off trail bushwhack with you (I even have one picked out).

I give you credit, when someone ask about mail drops or how many pairs of shoes or rather or not to do the approach trail on a thru hike, you have that ability to pass.

Some folks NEVER do.

lemon b
06-15-2014, 17:38
Just like I feel my own feelings. I have always hiked my own hike. That said if one walks past every whiteblaze where ever someone happened to paint them that year and makes a mess in the process they sure are not hiking my kinda hike. But I'll still pick up after them.

Mags
06-15-2014, 23:53
But things like how to pick out a stealth site, where to find water, or how to stay warm in 35 degree rain, are the same whether you're out for one night or a hundred.

Kevin, you probably have more backpacking experience than many people who do an AT thru-hike and call it good. :)

BuckeyeBill
06-16-2014, 00:35
Kevin, you probably have more backpacking experience than many people who do an AT thru-hike and call it good. :)

+1 Kevin I enjoy it when you share your thoughts on a subject

rocketsocks
06-16-2014, 21:05
Better question might be, why do folks that have never and will never do a thru hike any way, seem to know what a thru-hike is?


I agree, I hate the people that only does like a one night quickie hike and does not make it to their original distination then come on WB and other forums and try and give advice to people that has more hiking exsperience than they do and in reality they really don't know what they are talking about so in my oppinion these types should stay off WB until they get some miles under their feet, and they know who they are. this is the biggest problem i have with WB, this is my WB RANT and RAVE.


oh please! you could train a monkey to thru hike, the hardest part being the logistics. Other than learning a trail and it's nuances what new have you learned that you didn't learn hiking in your first season of doing so.

rafe
06-16-2014, 21:16
oh please! you could train a monkey to thru hike,

Maybe! Wouldn't disagree entirely. :)


the hardest part being the logistics. Other than learning a trail and it's nuances what new have you learned that you didn't learn hiking in your first season of doing so.

I dunno. I've spent most of my 61+ years learning how to hike, and I'm still figuring it out. I don't just mean gear, either.

rocketsocks
06-17-2014, 01:42
Maybe! Wouldn't disagree entirely. :)



I dunno. I've spent most of my 61+ years learning how to hike, and I'm still figuring it out. I don't just mean gear, either.
Exactly, so the whole argument about newbies giving advice is really more about, "set down and shut up, the inks barely dry on your white blaze membership" Egos!

WingedMonkey
06-17-2014, 08:55
oh please! you could train a monkey to thru hike, the hardest part being the logistics. Other than learning a trail and it's nuances what new have you learned that you didn't learn hiking in your first season of doing so.

How do you know? Did you read about it? Talk to someone else about it? or just that's what you think?

If someone asked how to hike with a monkey, would you still post the best way to do it?

Like I said some folks can't just pass.

Guess that's what forums are for.

magneto
06-17-2014, 09:45
Sucessfully completing something that only - at most - 25% of those who start do is an accomplishment.

http://www.appalachiantrail.org




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

rocketsocks
06-17-2014, 15:19
I can't take back what I said, but I can edit some of the drama out of it, in hind sight, it wasn't that funny. :)

lemon b
06-17-2014, 15:23
Passion vs purist is kinda like contective tissue. Changes with age the younger one is the more purist one seems to be. As the connective tissue starts to age seems like the passion takes over.

rocketsocks
06-17-2014, 16:13
Passion vs purist is kinda like contective tissue. Changes with age the younger one is the more purist one seems to be. As the connective tissue starts to age seems like the passion takes over.
I like this lemmon b...but unfortunately, today my connective tissue is on fire....I'm Hurt I'm Hurt, and this mornings field trip to the garage and wiki search has left me hobbled, so tis time to push the envelope and take a hike/walk.

...Oh the Humanity!

Sarcasm the elf
06-17-2014, 20:24
Better question might be, why do folks that have never and will never do a thru hike any way, seem to know what a thru-hike is?





How do you know? Did you read about it? Talk to someone else about it? or just that's what you think?

If someone asked how to hike with a monkey, would you still post the best way to do it?

Like I said some folks can't just pass.

Guess that's what forums are for.
It's funny, I never said that I thru hiked, nor did I suggest that I knew what one was like.


What I did say was that that I think thru hiking is an accomplishment and that the tendencies of some thru hikers to crap on others because they did or didn't follow somebody else's self appointed rules is both petty and pedantic and makes lose a lot of respect for ones doing the crapping. The fact that your only response to that is essentially "Well you've never thru hiked." Is telling that you don't have much if an argument to make.

To your other point, my time on the A.T. is just the most recent part of my lifelong love of camping and hiking in all four seasons as well as a good deal of experience with other outdoor activities. If somebody asks for advice on a subject where I have sufficient experience to provide something useful then I will.

Lone Wolf
06-17-2014, 20:29
"through hiking" is not a good way to walk all of the AT. section hikers have a much better appreciation of "the trail"

fiddlehead
06-17-2014, 20:50
Everyone's different.
For me, the passion is in finding a trail that no one has hiked before, and knowing I won't see anyone on it.
So, what does it matter if I cut a switchback or take a shortcut.
Hiking the AT again NOBO would be tougher IMO.: Too many people, with too many opinions on too many different things they think are important.

ChinMusic
06-17-2014, 20:56
For me, the passion is in finding a trail that no one has hiked before.....

Isn't that bushwacking?

rafe
06-17-2014, 20:57
In Closing, (and your gonna love this) :D

In Bill Bryson's book "A Walk in the Woods" he says...and i'm paraphrasing (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paraphrase) here

"One does not need to hike the whole trail to get the gist of it"


That's a keeper. +1000. Bravo, rocketsocks. Oh and especially the Bryson quote. :)

To WM: I never know if you're referring to me in your posts so here's where I'm coming from. I'm not a thru hiker, and will never be. But I believe I know of what I speak. I'll spare you the recitation of my hiking cred. If you have issues with my facts or opinions, don't hold back, please.

WingedMonkey
06-17-2014, 21:03
"through hiking" is not a good way to walk all of the AT. section hikers have a much better appreciation of "the trail"

I have stated that opinion many times, and when asked have recommended that if folks have a choice that the split the AT into more than one trip if they really want to enjoy it.

I even started a thread once on the admiration I have for those with the passion and perseverance to do a 2,000 miler by section hiking.

fiddlehead
06-17-2014, 21:04
Isn't that bushwacking?

Sometimes.
I look for trails but often have to cut one or bushwhack between them.

WingedMonkey
06-17-2014, 21:12
How do you know? Did you read about it? Talk to someone else about it? or just that's what you think?

If someone asked how to hike with a monkey, would you still post the best way to do it?

Like I said some folks can't just pass.

Guess that's what forums are for.



It's funny, I never said that I thru hiked, nor did I suggest that I knew what one was like.

And the statement was not made to you and what you said. Plenty of members have miles of experience that have never done a thru.

My statement that you quoted was in response to the off the wall statement by rocketsocks:


oh please! you could train a monkey to thru hike, the hardest part being the logistics. Other than learning a trail and it's nuances what new have you learned that you didn't learn hiking in your first season of doing so.

Meaning that you can't know that if you haven't completed a successful thru.

lemon b
06-17-2014, 21:20
Also to do a thru hike one has to be unemployed for 5-6 months. Many would consider a thru hiker to also be irresponsible to their families. Ya know totally self centered.
So responsibility timing is also key to a successful thru. One is either young and leaching off the folks or retired. Some are also lucky enough to have the job skills to step right back into the job market but in todays economy that is rare. Some would say the real man is the one who takes that lunch pail day in and day out walks to the shop and brings home the check so his family has what they need. Ya know passion for ones family. Just being able to thru requires luck, the right mindset, and sometimes the passion of the guy or girl hauling that lunchbox to work day in and day out.

Sarcasm the elf
06-17-2014, 21:28
And the statement was not made to you and what you said. Plenty of members have miles of experience that have never done a thru.

My statement that you quoted was in response to the off the wall statement by rocketsocks:



Meaning that you can't know that if you haven't completed a successful thru.

My response was largely in reference to your response in post #7 which I thought it fair to assume was directed at my opening post, I've gone ahead and edited my response above to include that quote.

rocketsocks
06-17-2014, 21:35
And the statement was not made to you and what you said. Plenty of members have miles of experience that have never done a thru.

My statement that you quoted was in response to the off the wall statement by rocketsocks:



Meaning that you can't know that if you haven't completed a successful thru.

Plenty of members have miles of experience that have never done a thru.


Agree.....right here dude! ;)



...and that's why you won't find me giving advice about places I don't know, or have not been, but perhaps in a very general way, I tend to PASS on such subjects leaving them for someone more qualified.

rafe
06-17-2014, 21:41
One is either young and leaching off the folks or retired. Some are also lucky enough to have the job skills to step right back into the job market but in todays economy that is rare.

It's true, though, the majority of long-distance hikers and thru hikers are under 25 or over 55. There's that third (smaller) category of divorcees and assorted middle-aged folks taking some sort of "sabbatical" -- folks with savings, no debt, no family obligations, etc. Or maybe adventurous stay-at-home moms who've just sent the last kid off to college.

kayak karl
06-18-2014, 05:19
there are many reasons people hike. i know a few that have hiked out of anger, fear and even loneliness. stereotyping hikes is impossible. even those that do it consider themselves unique ;)

rocketsocks
06-18-2014, 18:14
Winged Monkey, I gotta come out of retirement for an apology, as we have a history I don't require a response. I did have fun at your expense, and for that I apologize...though it was some of my best stuff. I think your right in saying that if someone give bad or inaccurate advise it should be addressed, these are my words not yours, but you know what I mean. Far be it from me to tell anyone what or how to write, but if the wrong advise is given, I'd address right then and there. I think most here have pretty big shoulders and can take criticism...I can. Anyway, hope your not to sore about it, I'm an ass, and I really do think you have much to offer to those that care to listen. Socks

lemon b
06-18-2014, 20:39
As far as passion goes I have an account set up specficly to bankroll my 19 yo if he ever mentions a strong desire to do a thru to clear out his young head, just want him to be stable enough to do it clean. As in drugs & booze. He can do all the blue blazing he wants or the Long trail which I'd be more than willing to meet him up to resupply as necessary. Of course on the AT he'd have to figure out his own supply options. The necessary equipment except for footwear is already in place. I feel an AT education has more value than a textbook education.

rocketsocks
06-19-2014, 10:14
"through hiking" is not a good way to walk all of the AT. section hikers have a much better appreciation of "the trail"
I know there's plenty of time to get to Katahdin if you start early enough in the year. But for a slow poke like me, I'd feel anything more than a slow poke would make me feel kinda rushed. But I never done a thru-hike...So, just seems like from what I read many are always havin to giddy up and go before the snows come in.

rafe
06-19-2014, 10:51
Yep, giddy-up and go is what thru-hiking is mostly about. You don't get to pick-and-choose your weather or your season, so you end up hiking in a lot of miserable weather. More risks, fewer On any given thru-hike, you're going to miss out on a lot of views. Maybe that's why some folks thru-hike multiple times.

Section hikers can pick-and-choose, and set whatever pace they want. There are far more logistical issues, and far more issues of just getting to and from the trailheads. Another downside is just getting back in shape.

A common misfortune is that many northbound thrus travel thru the Smokies in wet, foggy, rainy spring weather. I've heard thru-hikers complain of horrible weather thru the Whites, too. I feel bad for them, because I know how great they are in good weather.

rocketsocks
06-19-2014, 11:03
Yep, giddy-up and go is what thru-hiking is mostly about. You don't get to pick-and-choose your weather or your season, so you end up hiking in a lot of miserable weather. More risks, fewer On any given thru-hike, you're going to miss out on a lot of views. Maybe that's why some folks thru-hike multiple times.

Section hikers can pick-and-choose, and set whatever pace they want. There are far more logistical issues, and far more issues of just getting to and from the trailheads. Another downside is just getting back in shape.

A common misfortune is that many northbound thrus travel thru the Smokies in wet, foggy, rainy spring weather. I've heard thru-hikers complain of horrible weather thru the Whites, too. I feel bad for them, because I know how great they are in good weather.Yeah I'd be wanting to sand bag a few days till the weather broke. Many will only do this trip once in their lives, I wouldn't want to miss a thing.

Just Bill
06-20-2014, 13:45
One of the biggest things that backpacking has taught me is to be less petty and to stop judging people. It might be the 78 year old man who passes me at a crawl or the 19 year old with terrible gear and no knowledge, but I don't judge people or their goals on the trial because I've learned that they can always surprise and impress me.

I hate to say it, but if you need to denigrate the accomplishments of others in order to justify what you've done during your six month vacation, than you've clearly not learned enough from your experience.

You can keep trying to put down folks for what you see as imperfections in their trip, I will continue to support them in their own journey. So go Blue blazers, go yellow blazers and GO JOE GO! You'll all be better people for the effort and that's what counts.
Well said, all of it, but the above in particular-

My Passion-
I have always been intrigued, and eventually passionate about Native American belief and Philosophy, and try to apply the lessons of the Seven Directions of the Medicine Wheel to my trips.
The East- To obtain new knowledge, skills, and technique on every trip; building on the craft of the outdoorsman.
The South- To explore, expand and celebrate my physical capabilities, and enjoy the encounters with others doing the same.
The West- To cement knowledge into experience.
The North- To apply all the lessons of the wheel to gain wisdom and humility; as the trip dictates.
Above- To recognize and honor all that is around me, tangible and intangible.
Below- To connect with the Earth and all who inhabit it.
Center- To look to myself, live in the present; and if he or she does indeed exist- connect with the Fella that owns the place.

The Medicine Wheel is not a line of travel, but a sacred spiral traveled over and over, the lessons of each direction building on and providing greater depth each time we walk the path.

The Purists-
Not my way; and in point of fact, the art of route-finding, bushwhacking, and general travel is to find the most efficient means of travel to reach your goal. So I am more likely to pat my self on the back for having been misplaced and working out a solution than blindly following another persons path. Or more accurately, allowing the trail to lead me when it sees fit.

That said, I recognize the skill, discipline, and difficulty of the purist. I can only commend them for what they choose to do and perhaps it is fair to recognize this type of trip. Perhaps 2000 miler, end to end, or simply GAME, or MEGA is the better title for the typical thru-hiker.

Although I would note, the AT seems to be the only path that requires the debate of purity. A successful LT hiker is more appropriately called and "end to end'er." The River to River trail in my state is better described as a rough route across the state from point to point. It would be hard for even the purist to claim a thru-hike, and this is the more common case for most trails. Although changing, the CDT has no such requirement or opportunity. The PCT hiker faces many perils, both natural and man-made in completing a continuous trip that only seem to increase each year. And of course the trail-less bushwhacker or canoe tripping wandering woodsman would find the opportunity to find a trail at all a shocking development, and may look at his blaze following companions in utter confusion.

More troubling perhaps, one may claim the title of thru-hiker simply by completing the 150 mile R2R trail, or the 275 mile Long Trail, but one who walks 2200 miles from Georgia to Maine but fails to touch every insignificant slop of paint placed by the hands of men while walking the Earth must defend or debate their success? Or that the one who does meet this strictest requirement has more right to boast of it?

More likely- most folks realize the most important thing about walking in the woods.
No step taken is without merit.
With the purest passion, I for one, would congratulate all who have done so.

Another Kevin
06-20-2014, 16:11
(...)
Not my way; and in point of fact, the art of route-finding, bushwhacking, and general travel is to find the most efficient means of travel to reach your goal. So I am more likely to pat my self on the back for having been misplaced and working out a solution than blindly following another persons path. Or more accurately, allowing the trail to lead me when it sees fit.
(...)
Although I would note, the AT seems to be the only path that requires the debate of purity. A successful LT hiker is more appropriately called and "end to end'er." The River to River trail in my state is better described as a rough route across the state from point to point. It would be hard for even the purist to claim a thru-hike, and this is the more common case for most trails. Although changing, the CDT has no such requirement or opportunity. The PCT hiker faces many perils, both natural and man-made in completing a continuous trip that only seem to increase each year. And of course the trail-less bushwhacker or canoe tripping wandering woodsman would find the opportunity to find a trail at all a shocking development, and may look at his blaze following companions in utter confusion.
(...)

YES!

I live not too far from the southern terminal of the granddaddy of all "long trails" in the US - the Northville-Placid Trail (http://www.nptrail.org/) (133 miles), whose opening in 1924 predates even the Long Trail in Vermont, completed in 1930. (Although the Vermont Long Trail was started earlier, in 1912.) To this day, the NPT's routing is at best approximate: a thru-hike is nearly certain to involve losing the trail at multiple points and bushwhacking around obstacles such as beaver activity. (When the beavers' engineering projects conflict with the trail, the trail must simply move.) One cannot touch every blaze when some are underwater and others are buried in blowdown.

After the Long Trail was completed, Vincent Shaefer proposed that New York State should establish its own Long Path - named for Whitman's "long brown path before me leading wherever I choose." In that spirit, the Long Path was originally conceived as an unmarked route described in terms of historic or scenic points of interest in a guide book, with the hiker left to find his own way. The route was chosen, from Bear Mountain originally (later extended to the George Washington Bridge) to Whiteface Mountain in the Adirondacks. Raymond Torrey described its landmarks - many of which were on private land; farmers and foresters in that day were tolerant of polite trespassers - in a column in the (http://www.nynjtc.org/files/documents/LBP.pdf)New York Post (http://www.nynjtc.org/files/documents/LBP.pdf). World War II distracted people's attention from the project, and it languished for twenty years thereafter. Whenn the idea was revived in the 1960s, suburbia had taken over the southern end, and the woods roads and forest tracts that Shaefer and Torrey had envisioned following simply no longer existed. New trail was constructed in many areas, and roadwalks were charted through Orange County - an area nearly impassable to hikers because of suburban sprawl, and the trail became continuous as far as the northern Catskills. Construction since has made the Long Path a 355-mile continuous footpath from New York City as far as Thatcher Park in Altamont, NY (with substantial roadwalks avoided by a detour west on the Appalachian Trail from Harriman as far as Matamoras, and thence north on the Shawangunk Ridge Trail as far as Minnewaska). There is a mostly-roadwalk 'Northern Excursion' that links it to the Northville-Placid Trail, so a hiker can follow a blazed path (although the Long Path is frequently following other trails and shows a variety of blazes) from Manhattan to Lake Placid, over 500 miles. But this again cannot be a purist's route. There are dead ends, incomplete relocations, obsolete elements of the maps and guidebooks, as well as the aforementioned beavers, blowdowns, and rockslides. The trip definitely involves routefinding. (It also involves creativity in finding camping or lodging in the suburban sections. But a handful of hikers do it every year.)

These are the long trails in my back yard (not quite literally, but the Northern Excursion is less than a fifteen-minute drive away), and so they tend to be where my thoughts go when I think of 'long trails'. And they are, as I said, approximate. Impure by nature, if you will.

I can hardly imagine doing a hike as regimented as what some AT purists would have us do. I'm out there to ramble, to sightsee, to photograph, to write; not to complete arbitrary objectives. I'd be willing to claim credit for those accomplishments that I happen to complete on the way. I've gotten some into peak-bagging, because the list of Catskill peaks is a list of great places, and none of the 23 (out of 35) that I've completed has disappointed. At this point, I might as well go on and finish the list, and maybe even put in for the patch. (By the way, just under half the peaks require bushwhacking to get to. No two trips to one of those are ever quite the same.)

So, who here is with me? Anyone interested in, say, doing a thru-hike of the NPT? At 133 miles, plus detours and routefinding excursions, it'll probably take 2-2.5 weeks. It is a "thru hike" experience in miniature, with resupply being an adventure in the remote Adirondack villages. It's as remote a trail as New York offers: there are two sections of 45-50 miles each that have no road crossings (nor access routes that are significantly shorter than the trail). Maybe start southbound in the first week of October, and walk south with the fall colors? Plan for a zero to visit the Adirondack Museum at Blue Mountain Lake, and another in Piseco to get a mail drop and rest up.

1azarus
06-20-2014, 16:31
now here's a thread I like. wish I knew more about the medicine wheel and will do some digging now -- thanks JB. AK, you tempt me -- if I could talk you into waiting till mid November and walking in the opposite direction you'd have a deal! (this is not a sarcastic comment... just a social skills issue revealed).

Another Kevin
06-20-2014, 16:50
now here's a thread I like. wish I knew more about the medicine wheel and will do some digging now -- thanks JB. AK, you tempt me -- if I could talk you into waiting till mid November and walking in the opposite direction you'd have a deal! (this is not a sarcastic comment... just a social skills issue revealed).

Mid-November isn't great for the southern section, which has some road access; it's right in deer season. And the Adirondack Museum will have closed for the season (as, if I recall correctly, will the motel in Piseco.) And I've got to be in Oregon the second week of November.

I can understand time conflicts, of course, so I won't ask about the timing. But ... what's with wanting to go northbound rather than southbound? Just a matter of not having the Sun in your eyes?

12TH Man
06-20-2014, 20:39
Hey WingedMonkey, What a thru hike is? Have never and will never? What are your qualifications? 3172 posts; damn lot of
pontification.

WingedMonkey
06-21-2014, 10:00
Hey WingedMonkey, What a thru hike is? Have never and will never? What are your qualifications? 3172 posts; damn lot of
pontification.

Yes, I have hiked the Appalachian Trail on a thru-hike from one end to the other.

Ever thing else has just been hiking.


Which one of those describes you the most?

Have never or will never complete?

Tipi Walter
06-21-2014, 10:23
now here's a thread I like. wish I knew more about the medicine wheel and will do some digging now -- thanks JB. AK, you tempt me -- if I could talk you into waiting till mid November and walking in the opposite direction you'd have a deal! (this is not a sarcastic comment... just a social skills issue revealed).

The crux of the medicine wheel and its message is simple---Nature is God and so sleep outdoors.

Meriadoc
06-21-2014, 12:38
More likely- most folks realize the most important thing about walking in the woods.
No step taken is without merit.
With the purest passion, I for one, would congratulate all who have done so.

Bravo good sir.

12TH Man
06-22-2014, 09:14
Yes, I have hiked the Appalachian Trail on a thru-hike from one end to the other.

Ever thing else has just been hiking.


Which one of those describes you the most?

Have never or will never complete?

Congratulations on your thru.
At this point I'm a have never. My 2014 attempt had to be scuttled due to health issues.
Currently trying to recover from surgery. Last week of Feb 2015 is my goal now.
ALEVE is my trailname on Trailjournals. You are welcome to heckle me there.

WingedMonkey
06-22-2014, 09:50
Congratulations on your thru.
At this point I'm a have never. My 2014 attempt had to be scuttled due to health issues.
Currently trying to recover from surgery. Last week of Feb 2015 is my goal now.
ALEVE is my trailname on Trailjournals. You are welcome to heckle me there.

Good luck.

I look forward to your advise on thru-hiking afterwards.

;)

russb
06-22-2014, 15:41
YES!

So, who here is with me? Anyone interested in, say, doing a thru-hike of the NPT? At 133 miles, plus detours and routefinding excursions, it'll probably take 2-2.5 weeks. It is a "thru hike" experience in miniature, with resupply being an adventure in the remote Adirondack villages. It's as remote a trail as New York offers: there are two sections of 45-50 miles each that have no road crossings (nor access routes that are significantly shorter than the trail). Maybe start southbound in the first week of October, and walk south with the fall colors? Plan for a zero to visit the Adirondack Museum at Blue Mountain Lake, and another in Piseco to get a mail drop and rest up.

I have done the NPT a few times. This summer I am too busy to do the entire stretch so I have been hitting some favorite parts as weekend trips. Going this weekend as a matter of fact. I try to do the trail differently every time. There are plenty of alternative trails to take which are not the NPT proper (so as to remain on-topic for the purist v passion) which certainly make the next journey different. Some of these old trails used to be the NPT but have since been relocated. Anyway, I would love to join you on your design but i would not be able to do it at that time of the year. Unfortunate as it would be gorgeous. If you do, perhaps I could plot an intercept course and meet you for a portion. Stay in touch.

-dT

Just Bill
06-24-2014, 14:03
The crux of the medicine wheel and its message is simple---Nature is God and so sleep outdoors.

Walter is correct, there is little you need to know. The Medicine Wheel is quite useful, but ultimately it's just a teaching tool and not the truth of the matter. The greater appeal is that the practices of the red man are written on every surface of this earth, the lessons known by even smallest of the crawling ones, the truth told in the medicine of each being encountered. Even better, this philosophy belongs not to any race or people and is carried in a language that all speak.

Many will tell you that this wood is best. That only the sinew from a certain animal may be used. That this shrub makes a straight shaft, this feather flies true , a certain knap will pierce flesh and no others will do. Only the correct design handed down from a master will achieve the intended result. Dedication to the craft, proper offerings, prayer and ceremony being the only path to obtaining this gift.

Indeed, there may be true guidance and wisdom in all of these statements, so much so that some may call them sacred fact.

If the medicine is good, when you take string to bow, pick up the arrow of truth, aim and let fly; the only fact of the matter is wither your belly be full or empty at the end of the effort. Even when difficult to obtain, the truth is always plain to see.

Coyote Thunder Owl

Most compelling of all is the humble honesty in seeking Truth. Unlike any other philosophy or religion I have encountered which starts with some basic premise or fact that boldly proclaims, "We(I) have found the Way!," Native American philosophy starts with the truth;

"If you ask a traditional believing Sioux who, exactly, is the great sprit or who is God? They will honestly respond that they do not know." Ed McGaa.

This simple statement is the one that captured my imagination and best fit my beliefs.
Even the commonly held translation of Wakan Tanka into Great Spirit or God is not quite right- the exact translation being closer to Big Holy. Many Native words for "holy" things are more of a concept than a literal word- the more conceptual translation being; The Great Mystery.

That said, rather than flailing blindly, it does help to start with something.
Black Elk Speaks remains a good book.
Ed McGaa's book; Mother Earth Spirituality is a very honest book, based upon a discussion posed by a Humanities class where several religious and spiritual practitioners were invited to discuss the topic, with a wide array of direct questions.
The book takes the format of answering these questions as directly as the author is able.

I suggest these two books to any who wish to learn more about it; with the following caution shared by many much more wise than I- "The words of others, prayers and ceremonies often serve as both guidepost and crutch. Use them to learn to walk, set them aside when it is time to run."*
**- paraphrasing many different folks, including CTO shared above.

Just Bill
06-24-2014, 14:09
Anyone interested in, say, doing a thru-hike of the NPT? At 133 miles, plus detours and routefinding excursions, it'll probably take 2-2.5 weeks. It is a "thru hike" experience in miniature, with resupply being an adventure in the remote Adirondack villages. It's as remote a trail as New York offers: there are two sections of 45-50 miles each that have no road crossings (nor access routes that are significantly shorter than the trail). Maybe start southbound in the first week of October, and walk south with the fall colors? Plan for a zero to visit the Adirondack Museum at Blue Mountain Lake, and another in Piseco to get a mail drop and rest up.

Not sure how things will look by fall, but family likely sidelined the bulk if not the entirety of this season.

That said- This appears to be an excellent trail for a Tipi Style trip- skip the resupply and the museum- and make a clean trip from start to finish. The added security (AK)/emergency cache(TW) of being able to make your way to town midway if needed should add to the comfort level desired in this type of trip. Suppose you could still zero at the museum if desired, or burn books in your tent for a day when it's time to rest up.;)
Seems like an 8 (bad section) to 12 mpd (good sections) would be very feasable on this partially completed trail- a 14 day supply of food seems quite reasonable and an excellent challenge to everyone's style of trip.

Another Kevin
06-24-2014, 18:46
This appears to be an excellent trail for a Tipi Style trip- skip the resupply and the museum- and make a clean trip from start to finish. The added security (AK)/emergency cache(TW) of being able to make your way to town midway if needed should add to the comfort level desired in this type of trip. Suppose you could still zero at the museum if desired, or burn books in your tent for a day when it's time to rest up.;)
Seems like an 8 (bad section) to 12 mpd (good sections) would be very feasable on this partially completed trail- a 14 day supply of food seems quite reasonable and an excellent challenge to everyone's style of trip.

That does indeed sound like an excellent trip, but at the moment, it sounds to me like your trip and not mine. If you were able to do it, I'd surely consider joining you on it.

But it's not what I'd plan for myself. For a clueless weekender like me, a two-week outing with sketchy resupply options is entirely enough challenge without lugging the supplies for the whole trip. Besides, I may want to make a post office stop and send home the bear canister as soon as it's lawful to go without it. They're required in the High Peaks Wilderness, but nowhere else on the route. (They typically hold only about a week's worth of grub, anyway)

I wouldn't call the NPT "partially completed." It's all there, such as it is. It's simply remote enough that the beavers and blowdown are always a little bit ahead of the trail maintainers. The NY Long Path is and will always be a work in progress. Alternative routes and wayfinding are intended to be part of it, from its original conception.

Just Bill
06-24-2014, 18:57
Was not aware of the bear can issue- another wrinkle- but not insurmountable. A town stop and a beer is never hard to talk me into...
The trail shall go on the long list of interesting trips, you will remain of course on the short list of interesting people to go with- however, where ever and whenever it works out.

russb
06-24-2014, 20:00
Bear Canister is required in the Eastern High Peaks Zone (basically east of Indian Pass). The only portion of the NPT which traverses the High Peaks wilderness is in the Western Zone. No canister is required.

JumpMaster Blaster
06-26-2014, 04:43
Well I for one, as a newb section hiker, believe I have just as much to contribute as anyone else. I have made a few mistakes (still making them) but I feel my angle, along with a couple other rookies, is just as relevant. Getting my take on a section I just hiked & took a little time to enjoy, vs some guy who blew through it 5-6 years ago may be more relevant. Maybe not. (I took 4 days to do Grayson Highlands, which included a loop on the Pine Mountain and Wilburn Ridge trails, and a trip up to Mt Rogers. Some thru hikers never saw the ponies, and that's just sad).

What is disconcerting is the condescending attitude a few folks have on here; if you don't do things the way THEY do things, you're all jacked up. A lot of it comes with an air of haughtiness & arrogance. That's why I won't post my gear list, even though I dropped almost 8 lbs off my pack weight. Someone will come by and say "you dont need this, you dont need that, why in hell are you carrying a camera, are you here to hike or take pictures". My gear list would be something I'd want a newer person wanting to section hike to take a look at. I've seen threads about what someone should use to journal their trip, and it never fails, someone says "don't bring any electronics to the trail, just walk and keep memories in your head", etc. In other words, HMHDI. Its off-putting and discourages discussion.

Like someone else said, sometimes it's best to PASS on a subject/thread/what have you.

I'm off my very new hardly broken in soap box and off to finish planning my next hike.

Another Kevin
06-26-2014, 10:03
Was not aware of the bear can issue- another wrinkle- but not insurmountable. A town stop and a beer is never hard to talk me into...
The trail shall go on the long list of interesting trips, you will remain of course on the short list of interesting people to go with- however, where ever and whenever it works out.


What is disconcerting is the condescending attitude a few folks have on here; if you don't do things the way THEY do things, you're all jacked up. A lot of it comes with an air of haughtiness & arrogance.

If Bill and I came across as condescending, I'm genuinely sorry! He and I know each other only from cyberhiking, and we've been trying off and on to arrange to hike together for some time. The stars never seem to align for it. Some of that conversation should have happened in private messages - indeed, we took the next round private - but both of us do tend to ramble. For what it's worth, I don't think he was putting me down one bit, hence the respectful, "that's your trip, not mine."

And for what it's worth, I'm nearer to your perspective than to his; witness the label above my picture to the left of this post. I remain clueless about long-distance hiking, but offer advice here because I like to think I've learnt something in my fifty years of occasional weekend trips and short sections. I don't even aspire to long-distance hiking. I made an exception for the trip that we're discussing because it's got some lovely places on it that can't be reached by any means other than a 20-mile walk each way. If I'm going to do two 40+-mile sections of a 133-mile trail, I figure, I might as well thru-hike it.

I don't post gear lists either. My list varies too much depending on expected temperatures and how much mountaineering gear I think I'll need (about a third of my hikes are off trail). And my list is embarrassingly weird, including homemade gear, expensive cottage-industry stuff, Salvation Army finds, and REI tent-sale specials. Nobody could duplicate it; if anything were to happen to it, I wouldn't even try. I run heavy, but with my hiking style I have to. Moreover, if I did post a gear list, it would end "and two pounds of None of Your Business!" I do bring electronics. Camera, smartphone, PLB, and a smartphone charger that takes the same drugstore batteries that the camera does.

You know what? Out on the trail, my stuff looks pretty middle-of-the-road. I run heavy by WhiteBlaze standards, but I've had other weekenders heft my pack and say, "wow, that's light!" And by WhiteBlaze standards, I'm a clueless weekender, but out on the trail, I'm a hiker, and a fairly experienced one.

So stand up and be proud. We clueless weekenders do have something to say.

rafe
06-26-2014, 10:31
You know what? Out on the trail, my stuff looks pretty middle-of-the-road. I run heavy by WhiteBlaze standards, but I've had other weekenders heft my pack and say, "wow, that's light!" And by WhiteBlaze standards, I'm a clueless weekender, but out on the trail, I'm a hiker, and a fairly experienced one.

That's an OK place to be, I find myself there often, hopelessly middle of the road. Among Deadheads I'm clueless and straight, among straight people I'm an incurable Deadhead. :)

JumpMaster Blaster
06-26-2014, 13:36
Add 2 pounds of "None of your business"! I like that. Sadly, 2 pounds of it managed to find its way into my pack. Grr.

Just Bill
06-26-2014, 15:28
On the trail- we're all in the middle of the road- it's only a foot or so wide.:D