Some People don't 'believe' in alcohol/can stoves [Archive]

Ricky&Jack

06-15-2014, 17:45

A month ago I decided i wanted a Jetboil Stove because of fuel availability and because of the mug/pot that comes with it ($100 online)

But then a few days ago, i decided to go with a Pocket Rocket (I made a thread here asking how to build a pot) because of its $39 price.

But then this morning when I woke up, I realized I could save even more money, and just get an alcohol/can stove for a few bucks.

So I drove 40miles to Chattanooga to check out 'ROCK CREEK OUTFITTERS' that local hikers recommended. But when I got there, the place had a serious 'yuppie' tone to it. And along with overpriced items. It seems more like an upscale boutique, with a large selection of hiking etc gear.

But while I was looking for the alcohol/bottle/can stoves, I was told by an employee "We don't carry them" and when i asked 'why', he replied "Because we only sell things we use ourselves. And we can't make money selling those. We like these jetboil stoves ($122, which is $22 higher than the MSRP) and we don't believe Alcohol stoves to be a good cooking source".

Once he walked away, I asked another employee if they had the can stoves, and she said "We don't. We don't find them useful".

That seems odd. So i bought a national geographic map of the local Cohutta hiking area, and a Pocket Profile of the GA portion of the A.T. and decided to go 11 miles further to Sportmans Warehouse (which is like a little Bass Pro Shop, if you've never been to it)

Once there, I saw about 4 different stove options (Jetboil, pocket Rocket etc. and about 30 "Solite alcohol stoves"... The guy that helped me find the alcohol stoves told me "we sell about a box every day (30 units). It's the cheapest and lightest stove to use". I know you can buy a cheap home-made alcohol stove online for $8 but paying $25 to buy it right away in the store was worth it, to me.

After I grabbed my new alcohol stove, I noticed the store had a Sale on JetBoil Zip on sale for $59 (normally $89 online, and at the store I was just at for $110).... I almost got it. But then i realized instead of spending $59 plus fuel, i can just buy the alcohol stove for $25, plus a 5pieve aluminum cooking set for $9 and Heet fuel for $4. ($40 for everything, sincetead of $65 for the jetfoil and fuel.)

Since this is my first actual cooking 'stove' I ever bought, i was wondering "are there people that don't believe the the usefulness of alcohol stoves?" Or did Rock Creek Outfitters just say that because they can't make a huge profit compared to the other stoves?

Without starting a debate about alcohol vs other stoves, i was wondering if Alcohol stoves really are popular to use? Or did I just get brain washed into thinking they are great, because of the few posts I read about them?

(I should be taking it out to use this week)

Ricky&Jack

06-15-2014, 17:52

I can't tell if its a good thing that they have the "we only sell what we personally use" of if that's kinda making them sound like D!cks by not giving us a wide variety and selection of options.

rocketsocks

06-15-2014, 18:10

Ricky, you have attained hiker trash status, with a propensity to dirt bag and deal (this is a good thing) go forth with your new stove, feel invincible and years from now you'll tell stories of your first alcohol stove that brought you many a good meal and fellowship. and to answer your question, many people use em.

SteelCut

06-15-2014, 18:16

Throughout my mountaineering and backpacking experiences I have used in white gas stoves, various styles canisters stove, and alcohol stores. Depending upon conditions and my temperament, all of them have their place. Each stove has its benefits in terms of fuel efficiency, heat output, etc. but at some point it comes down to personal preference. Despite my preference for canister stoves, it doesn't mean that alcohol stoves are wrong. Most of the time I just prefer to not fiddle with them. But that's just my preference. It's not right or wrong.

Perhaps you need a little personal hands-on experience than relying on what you read on the internet or hear from store employees. Form your OWN opinions and preferences.

Malto

06-15-2014, 18:23

I believe you will find alcohol stoves to be especially popular with long distance hikers and/or those who use FBC (freezer bag cooking). In most cases these groups are not cooking so much as heating water to rehydrate food. It makes less sense for groups, those that cook or folks that hike extensively in areas of extreme fire danger.

Also, make sure you use yellow heet not red. Also, you can save major league money on fuel by buying gallons of denatured alcohol at Home Depot or similiar. It will be much less expensive than Heet and you can refill your Heet bottles because that's about the right size for most trips.

rafe

06-15-2014, 19:17

Alky stoves: the "infrastructure" -- the stove itself -- weighs next to nothing, a few grams. With a canister stove, you're carrying 5 or 6 oz. of "infrastructure" -- the burner unit, plus the canister itself (ie. the container for the isobutane fuel.)

Alky stoves are usually home-made but they can be purchased for a few bucks online (eg. antigravitygear.com). I wouldn't expect to find them at REI, EMS or even an proper backcountry outfitter.

The fuel, alcohol, has a much lower energy density than either isobutane (canister fuel) or white gas. If your meals don't take too many BTU to cook, alky stoves can end up being lighter overall (stove+fuel.) You put X amount of alcohol in the stove (usually about 1 fluid ounce) and light it, and hope that gives you just the right burn-time for whatever it is you're cooking. With some foods, that works OK, like the aforementioned freezer-bag-cooking. You give it a few minutes boil time, and after that you let the meal sit in the insulated pot for a few minutes and finish cooking, without additional heat. If you need a long burn-time, alky stoves probably won't work for you.

I'm one of those people who prefer canister stoves, even at the expense of a slightly heavier kitchen.

Venchka

06-15-2014, 19:56

That 5 piece cookset, a clone of the BSA cookset my folks gave me back in the Stone Age and still in my gear locker, is $5.50 at Academy.
I quit. Have fun.

Wayne

Slo-go'en

06-15-2014, 19:57

Alcohol stoves are popular on the AT. Not so much out west where they are banned in many areas due to a perceived risk of starting a forest fire, since someone, somehow actually once started a forest fire with one. But seeing how clumsy and inattentive one would have to be to do this, it probably wouldn't have mattered what stove that person had been using.

Last Call

06-15-2014, 21:07

Really like Sportsmans Warehouse, have one here. I consider the Jetboil a yuppie stove, no offense to anyone that has one. I have made a couple of alky stoves, work pretty good I just fear a leaky fuel bottle in my pack. Micro Rocket for me...

Wise Old Owl

06-15-2014, 21:37

Sort of answering your own post. If you can make it at home - why sell it... I remember a really cool post right here when a guy pulled out the best alcohol stove a wind screen and a pot... and someone in the shelter said ...dude your kitchen is made from trash! Recycled sure. Not everyone is going to go alcohol. It takes a little skill in cold weather, wind and might let you down... A Pocket Rocket won't - but that's a part of life.

I cannot defend someone who is a hiker who works at a REI or a upscale boutique of backpacking gear. I suggest you lower your expectations of enthusiasts who work there for whatever reasons. They are not professional sales persons, they are enthusiasts. They like being there - they feel they are being helpful & I am grateful for their presence to save me time in that store. Tis far better- when you ask a question, they do not respond, like they do at Best Buy "I will look it up for you." - miserable place to shop.

Last week I walked into a REI and I knew that my LLBEAN laminated breathable raincoat had bit the dust in just a few years. I was looking to replace it, I approched an older guy and asked for the lightest rain coat in the store... no hesitation took me right to a Marmot Nano Pro Breathable shell. His explanations were well thought out and simple... I needed it for work not backpacking - but I still may take it hiking... I bought it.

Dogwood

06-15-2014, 22:01

Hopefully, especially after your "How far is it OK to skip?" thread you are realizing hiking and backpacking involves opinions that vary. That's good! Accept it! R&J there are pros and cons to most any type of gear. There is no right way that satisfies everyone all the time. There is no definitive book, website, store, person, or group where you can go to find the answers appropriate for you all the time. This is what makes hiking and backpacking so AWESOME to me - we all get to arrive at our own conclusions about what's appropriate for us. Here's a brief rundown on stoves Mags put together. I like his down and dirty reviews(beta) when I want a quicker not bogged down in every single detail round up of info.

Dogwood

06-15-2014, 22:01

http://www.pmags.com/stove-comparison-real-world-use

July

06-16-2014, 00:44

Cut my teeth on whisperlite, (after plain ole camp fire cook'n) still have 3 in the gear box. Canisters are high speed. Still for most times carry the -OH. Will add I usually drink some coffee and eat home dehydrated meals. Works well.

Ricky&Jack

06-16-2014, 00:52

I guess I was jus tore shocked that I expected a sporting good store to carry them because I hear they are so light, and easy to use. Making them very popular.

Rock Creek outfitters had a "We don't carry it because we don't use it ourselves and don't 'believe' in it" attitude. I thought that kind of was sucky for a business. I mean, I guess it's good they only sell by the products they stand by, but I mean it IS a business, and the fact that Sportmasn warehouse across town has to stock a case (30 units) every day because they are good little stoves says something.

I guess I just expected a "hiking meca" after having recommendations to go there. But the place was just too fancy. I believe they only sold 2 brands of packs, but their store was reasonably big with tons of items. They just didn't really expand the possibilities and choices.

Variety is a plus.

And the option to chose something because YOU read reviews etc is something I expected. I expected to find a popular item for sale, and not to arrive and be told "nah, we just don't like it" seemed odd... Even tho it was THEIR store, its still a store meant to serve it's customers.

July

06-16-2014, 04:01

http://andrewskurka.com/2011/how-to-make-a-fancy-feast-alcohol-stove/

Another Kevin

06-16-2014, 05:36

I don't think that there is an experienced A-T hiker that doesn't believe that alcohol stoves are useful. Some will say "an alcohol stove is not for me," and the wiser will continue, "an alcohol stove is not for me because..."

I've used all three of the major types: alcohol, canister, naphtha, and all three have their places.

My usual "go to" is alcohol. I've been using alcohol-fired stoves since my parents got me a Turm Sport back in the 1970s (because it reminded them of the old-reliable alcohol stove that they'd had on their boat). I hike in the wet East, so I don't worry too much about spilling a burning stove, even though I'm clumsy. Mine is one of the complicated ones that Skurka derides. Unlike him, I do more than freezer-bag cooking, although that's my mainstay. So I carry about another ounce of gadgetry that lets me fit the stove with a simmer ring and/or a steamer basket. That lets me broaden out to things like muffins (https://flic.kr/s/aHsjXBm5A4), or do real rice, or lentils, or quinoa, and steam vegetables.

Alcohol gets to be weight-prohibitive if you need a lot of heat. I run at the "need a lot of heat" end of the spectrum: I typically do both porridge and coffee in the morning, and a hot meal in the evening with perhaps even a cup of tea or hot chocolate. But since all of my trips are short - I haven't done anything longer than 4 nights in years - the weight of my setup is still competitive with a canister.

In deep winter I switch to a Whisperlite. You go through fuel at an amazing rate when you need hot drinks to stay warm and you need to melt snow for water. The greater heat content of naphtha as opposed to alcohol offsets the greater annoyance factor and weight of the stove itself. But I dislike having to clean the stove at unexpected times, having it flare into an alarming fireball when I'm trying to prime it, and otherwise putting up with a temperamental beast, so I resort to it only when I need the power. Perhaps it would be better behaved if I used it more often.

I like canister stoves, too. They're simple: just screw in the canister, turn on the valve and light! You can adjust the heat without carrying various little aluminum widgets that throttle alcohol stoves. (Sometimes I've been tempted just to make a little stove for simmering out of a tea light!) They're fast. And they've got over the problem that they used to have: canisters were hard to obtain. Back in the day, every manufacturer's stoves took a different canister, every outfitter carried only one or two, and manufacturers went out of business distressingly often.

The big disadvantage is that they're heavier on long trips, the fuel is expensive, I can never keep track of how much fuel I have left (which means that I'm often toting a second canister because I might run out), and they have poor cold-weather performance. On a recent trip in February with a big group, I saw the canister users sitting around cradling their Jetboils in their hands trying to keep their canisters warm so the stoves wouldn't flame out. I had to use the priming dish with my little beverage-can stove, but I'm used to that. The stove lit, primed and made my coffee on a morning when my thermometer said 18 F inside my tent. (I didn't look again, didn't want to destroy morale, but I'm pretty sure it was in the single digits outside.)

There's a small but vocal minority - Nimblewill Nomad, Qi Wiz and 1azarus among them - who prefer twig-fired wood stoves. These have no fuel weight, but demand patience and get stuff all sooty. They're not for me, I'm afraid, at least at this point. Maybe next year I'll see the light. Certainly my ultimate backup if my stove fails is to use my pot stand as a trivet and scoop out some coals from a campfire underneath my pot.

With any of these systems, my usual pot is a K-Mart Grease Pot if I'm solo or a GSI Dualist pot if I'm cooking for a partner. (Which I often am: my hiking partners like my cooking.)

Summary: They all work, and it's a matter of hiking style. A canister is easiest for a beginner. What suits my personal style is alcohol for three seasons and naphtha for deep winter. If I hiked somewhere more inflammable than the wet Eastern forests, I'd switch to a canister for safety.

Rocket Jones

06-16-2014, 06:32

The key for you now is to practice using your stove. Don't wait to get on the trail, cook your trail meals on your porch or backyard. Learn to use it in various conditions (wind, rain, etc) now, before you *really* need to figure it out.

Usually, when someone with an alcohol stove says "cook", they mean "boil water".

My last SuperCat stove cost 64 cents, for the cat food can. I made a modified version that wasn't quite so blow-torch efficient because my cooking style has evolved from straight FBC to the meals you find on http://www.backpackingchef.com/. His recipes are dehydrated, but you soak for 5 minutes, bring to a boil, let boil a minute or two, then cozy for 10 minutes. His recipes rehydrate excellently and the taste is really good.

My favorite feature about the SuperCat - besides the price - is that the stove is its' own pot stand. One less thing to mess with.

+1 on the above advice to get denatured alcohol instead of Heet for fuel. Much cheaper, even if you go to Wally World for the quart size instead of the gallon can. Make sure your (yellow) Heet bottle has a threaded cap, some have a pop top which isn't secure enough to take hiking (personal experience). I always put my fuel bottle in a gallon ziplock and keep it in an outside pocket, just in case. Except for the one time, I've never had a problem with leaking fuel.

I do have a canister stove, but I use it mostly for car camping or to lend out to buddies who need a stove when we go out.

TL;DR - Practice with your stove and recipes at home!

Coffee

06-16-2014, 06:39

Different tools work for different people. Yuppie is a loaded word and means more than just "expensive". I would also argue that a Jetboil Sol Aluminum, which can often be purchased around $100, is not outrageously expensive considering that it is an entire system. To compare jetboil to something like a pocket rocket without considering the cost of a lightweight cook pot is an apples vs oranges comparison.

yuppie is a $100 lululemon yoga pants, not a jetboil.

rafe

06-16-2014, 06:56

And the option to chose something because YOU read reviews etc is something I expected. I expected to find a popular item for sale, and not to arrive and be told "nah, we just don't like it" seemed odd... Even tho it was THEIR store, its still a store meant to serve it's customers.

Like I told ya, don't believe everything you read on the Internet. Whiteblaze is a tiny sampling of people who hike. We have folks here who have hiked all of the US long trails, or have hiked the AT ten times over, etc. etc. -- people with tens of thousands of miles of hiking experience. What works for them may or may not work for you. Their experiences may or may not align with yours.

Best way to learn is to get out there and learn what works for you. And what works for you will probably change over time. The hiking gear I use now is night and day different from what I started with as a youngster in my 20s. I've learned a good deal from the folks on Whiteblaze, but there's also a lot of info and opinions that have no relationship to the way I hike.

Namtrag

06-16-2014, 07:07

Never used anything but the lowest model Jetboil, and my wife and I love it. I believe it was $60, and we do all freezer bag meals by dehydrating our own suppers, and using oatmeal, etc for breakfast. We are just weekenders though.I have only seen one person in our meetup group using alcohol stove, and most common thing I've seen in our group is the Pocket Rocket.

daddytwosticks

06-16-2014, 07:15

I've been into Rock Creek Outfitters. I agree with the OP's observations. :)

brancher

06-16-2014, 07:48

Don't get too troubled over this stuff - every outfitter has a bunch of 'experts' who love to pretend they know everything. And they don't. You gotta use use stuff til you find something you love to use.

For me it's a wash. I have used Jetboil (1st generation), homemade alky, Trangia, Pocket Rockets, Cat cans, Wicked alky, etc, ad nauseum. You kind of go thru phases as an avid backpacker, constantly searching for that holy grail of gear that fits your every whim - and eventually you find out that the 'holy grail' doesn't exist. They all have their places, and all are subject to varying degrees of personal preference. My Jetboil was wonderful when it first came out - but I didn't like the lack of versatility or the weight (these days, there are more options with the JB system I hear). Then I went UL alcohol, with Trangias and the vary basic cookset from Trangia - very nice setup, powerful alky stove, etc, etc. Still have it.

Went thru a phase when I made several different designs of alky stoves, and they all (pretty much) worked, but different ones worked either better (and what is 'better anyway - faster, hotter, etc?) or worse. My favorite is a wicked stove made from a cat can and a Bud Lite can. It works, is light, etc. But over time, I have found out that there are limitations to all of 'em - either weight, heat loss in cold weather, cooking time, fuel consumption, bulkiness, etc.

These days, I just use a simple canister stove (Vargo Jet-ti - they don't make 'em anymore, but snow Peak has a UL canister stove) and either my Coleman Maxx anodized cookset split into a solo setup or my Imusa setup I made out of Imusa mugs and some aluminum sheathing I had in the garage. My entire kit is about 7 oz w/clot, lighter and scrubber (sans fuel, but you'll find that canister fuel doesn't weight much more than alky or Heet and is actually lighter long-term- so don't listen to the 'too much weight' crowd). Since I like hot tea at the shelter or campsite, nad since I like hot dinners, my canister stove is perfect with my 1 liter pot - boil some H2o, pour tea, then add my Harmony House dehy food/ramen/etc to the pot. Very quick, very easy.

So don't get too hung up on the opinions of shiny-nosed outfitter folks. Some of those folks are knowledgeable and golden, others are just spouting what somebody else told 'em to say.

Ymmv. Good luck.

Pics attached
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Mags

06-16-2014, 08:46

Figure out your style of backpacking, location and so on.

I heated up water for four people this weekend three times. Decided to go with a white gas stove as I was using a 1 gallon pot and, as mentioned, heating up a lot of water.

Last weekend? I did some cooking for myself and three friends vs water boiling and used a canister stove.

This coming weekend, it is a group trip that I am helping to lead but the group meals are cooked individually. So I am doing an alchie stove.

A trip later this month? Probably not take a stove at all.

:)

Two Speed

06-16-2014, 09:02

. . . i was wondering if Alcohol stoves really are popular to use?Yes, alcohol stoves are widely used.

Some people swear by them, some swear at them but they're definitely widely used. I think Mags' advice to find out what works for you and not worry about what everyone else is carrying is one of the best tips you'll ever get regarding gear.

Just my $0.02.

rafe

06-16-2014, 09:38

The other point to be made here is that the path to hiking nirvana is so much more than simply acquiring this or that piece of gear. Without knowledge of how that gear works, its idiosyncrasies, quirks, strengths, weaknesses -- all you've got is a piece of hardware. Worse than useless, if you don't know how to use it.

Alcohol stove might be just the ticket -- but they have to be matched to a particular style of food prep and selection, and particular habits of eating. How many hot meals a day? How many cups of hot drinks? Hiking alone or as a couple, or a group? Are your meals elaborate or simple? Where are you hiking (AT, or tinder-dry Sierras?) What season? How many days between fuel resupply? Do you savor your time in camp, or would you rather spend your time making miles?

This is what concerns me about folks who hope to buy their way into ultralight hiking. Yeah, sometimes you can spend big $$$ to save a few ounces with very little risk or change in your routine. But anything more involved than that usually involves some learning and readjustment. Grab your stuff and go. Keep a diary. Figure out what worked and what didn't. Make adjustments and do it all over again.

peakbagger

06-16-2014, 09:40

I section hiked with a friend over several years, we both started with pocket rockets. We both tried alcohol, he switched over to it, I didnt. I tend to cook a bit fancier and generally wanted the ability to simmer for longer periods that I could get from an alcohol stove. I built a hanging heat shield for my pocket rocket and it allows me to simmer with a far lower flame than without the shield. It also gets me to around 14 days of two meals per day per canister.

lemon b

06-16-2014, 11:06

Rocket & Mags hit the nail on the head. Some people swear by alcohol stoves some do not. I use a pocket rocket or whisperlite in cold weather. Tried alcohol but just do not have enough bag nites with someone more experienced in there use to have a real valid opinion. There are alot of them out there but I have inexperience issues mainly caused by weather issues. So end up using a lot more fuel than someone who is experienced.

RockDoc

06-16-2014, 12:22

I've tried all kinds of stoves, SVEA, MSR, canister, alky (commercial and diy) for 40+ years and all I can say is life is pretty horrible on the trail if your stove does not work reliably. This is not a place to trade function and reliability for saving a few dollars or grams. I recall the sadness in the eyes of campers in Iceland who bummed hot water from us one morning because of stove problems for their whole 5 day hike. Almost all the food they had brought needed to be cooked to be eaten, so they couldn't even eat their food.

The alky stoves I tried failed in non-ideal conditions, like if there's any wind, and in real life camping conditions they were fussy and slow to boil water. I have given up on them.

Life is good with the Snowpeak giga with the auto striker. Fast boiling water no matter the conditions. Don't even need matches or lighter. It doesn't get any better than this.

Odd Man Out

06-16-2014, 12:43

But based on my own interactions with employees at stores that sell backpacking stuff, I speculate three possible motivations behind the interactions cited by the OP.

Some people are enamored by gadgets and technology. They want titanium and CF everything. It's high tech and expensive so it must be better. Some are firmly in the "that's the way we've always done it" camp. Easily available product made by well know name brands are familiar and comfortable (for the sales rep and the buyer). Or this could be a business strategy. Let's face it, backpacking supply stores have sucky business model. After all, if a UL backpacker were running the store, his goal would be to sell you as little stuff as possible. Often it could be a combination of these, too.

I know I've had sales people all over me when I walk in the store, but when I they find out about what kind a gear I have, they basically treat me like a leper (realizing they probably aren't going to sell me much). Or when I ask why they only sell high top waterproof hiking boots, they state (as if it were obvious) that you really can't hike in anything else. Or when looking at the display of the same pump filters that have been around forever I ask if they carry the Sawyer filter that weighs less, costs less, has no moving parts to break, and has a million gallon lifespan, and they say "uh no" (BTW, this last one has changed in just the last year or two, so change happens, albeit at a glacial pace).

Ricky&Jack

06-16-2014, 13:04

Yeah, they didn't have sawyer mini there, either. But there was a $170 pump/filter unit

Bronk

06-16-2014, 13:49

Trends may have changed, but when I did my thru attempt in 2002, by the time we got to Damascus 80% or more were using an alcohol stove. The people at the outfitter were saying that because alcohol stoves can be made by anybody with a soda can and a pocket knife and they want to sell you a $100 stove. You got ripped at $25. There are plans and videos and websites all over the internet that can show you how to make a fancy alcohol stove in about 20 minutes with tools and materials you probably already have laying around the house. But if all you want is function and all you're going to do is boil water, take a pocket knife and cut the top and bottom off a soda can about an inch from the top and bottom and press the top of the can into the bottom...then go around the edge and punch a few holes in it all the way around and pour an ounce or so of alcohol in it and light it up. I like the Fancy Feast stove for its simplicity and the fact that it acts as its own pot stand.

Odd Man Out

06-16-2014, 14:36

Yeah, they didn't have sawyer mini there, either. ...

But you can get them at Walmart and Cabela's - that's a switch. When I look at my pack, most everything comes from a place like Walmart, the hardware store, or a cottage company. Little comes from an outfitter.

Odd Man Out

06-16-2014, 14:43

I would also add that the "techno gear heads", the "this is the way my father taught me" crew, the gram weenie UL enthusiasts, the "I bought everything the outfitter could sell me" guy, the Walmart/DIY/garage sale dirtbagger, and the "I research gear choice for a year at WB.net" crowd can all have a great hike, no matter what they carry.

Another Kevin

06-16-2014, 15:05

The alky stoves I tried failed in non-ideal conditions, like if there's any wind, and in real life camping conditions they were fussy and slow to boil water. I have given up on them.

Life is good with the Snowpeak giga with the auto striker. Fast boiling water no matter the conditions. Don't even need matches or lighter. It doesn't get any better than this.

The other point to be made here is that the path to hiking nirvana is so much more than simply acquiring this or that piece of gear. Without knowledge of how that gear works, its idiosyncrasies, quirks, strengths, weaknesses -- all you've got is a piece of hardware. Worse than useless, if you don't know how to use it..

Yup. Different people have different experiences.

The SnowPeak is a great stove. If I were to switch to a canister, it's probably what I'd get. And (see above) I'd recommend a canister for someone just starting out, because of the lack of 'fiddle factor' and the fact that a beginner is likely starting out in mild weather. I do find that the piezo igniters can be temperamental, so I'd be prepared to use match, lighter, or (most likely in my case) firesteel, rather than the pushbutton on the stove.

I've used my current alky stove in temperatures ranging from about 10 F to the 90s F, in rain and snow and sleet, and in high wind, and it hasn't failed me yet. I'll concede that it's a couple of minutes slower to boil than the Snowpeak. I can build a version that boils faster, but fuel efficiency goes down the toilet. I'll trust my alcohol burner in lower temperatures than I'll trust a canister, and I like being able to see how much fuel I have left.

But what's important is learning how to use what you've got. My dirtbag setup (homemade stove and simmer ring, Grease Pot, homemade pot stand and windscreen, homemade steamer, homemade cozies for freezer bag and Nalgene, Light My Fire spork, old-fashioned pour-over Melitta coffee cone) is light and fairly versatile, and was dirt cheap. But I understand its quirks, and pack for my hiking style. (If I'm cooking for other people, or melting snow, or anticipate the possibility of fresh fish, or any one of a number of other considerations, what I pack will change somewhat. I'm just describing my usual kit for "summer weekend, cooking for just me."

nastynate

06-17-2014, 10:33

So I drove 40miles to Chattanooga to check out 'ROCK CREEK OUTFITTERS' that local hikers recommended. But when I got there, the place had a serious 'yuppie' tone to it. And along with overpriced items. It seems more like an upscale boutique, with a large selection of hiking etc gear.

But while I was looking for the alcohol/bottle/can stoves, I was told by an employee "We don't carry them" and when i asked 'why', he replied "Because we only sell things we use ourselves. And we can't make money selling those. We like these jetboil stoves ($122, which is $22 higher than the MSRP) and we don't believe Alcohol stoves to be a good cooking source".

Once he walked away, I asked another employee if they had the can stoves, and she said "We don't. We don't find them useful".

Point 1: Yes, they focus on urban hipsters. But they sell quality outdoor gear at MSRP with the occasional sale. You want Patagonia, Marmot, North Face, etc, they have it all.
Point 2: They sell Jetboils, Pocket Rockets, and Snow Peaks at MSRP. Not a penny above. You were looking at the wrong stove. I know. I was in there yesterday.
Point 3: They don't sell Sawyer Squeeze. But they do sell AquaMira for the same $15 that it is anywhere else. The have Steripens for MSRP too.
Point 4: Why in the world would they sell soda can or cat food can stoves when you can make them at home for less than a buck.

Ricky&Jack

06-17-2014, 10:37

.Point 4: Why in the world would they sell soda can or cat food can stoves when you can make them at home for less than a buck.

Same reason Wilderness Outfitters in chattanooga sells so many at $25. Solite alcohol stoves are a great stove. even tho you can make them really cheap, I found the $25 price to be great. Been heating my meals the past few days with it, to get used to it.

Why not ask "why do they still have a large selection of maps, even tho you can look up any info you need, online.?" (I bought a map there for my area because I felt it was worth it, even tho I coulda just looked the info up for free)

Coffee

06-17-2014, 10:38

Aquamira is a little over $11 on Amazon. JetBoil Sol Aluminum is $101, $19 off MSRP. Flash is $82, $18 off MSRP. I will only pay full price for cottage gear, never for mainstream products. The only time I would pay MSRP at an outfitter is if I'm on the trail and need gear replacement and cannot arrange for Amazon shipment general delivery.

July

06-17-2014, 10:51

Sir-Packs-Alot

06-17-2014, 10:57

Since so many have already answered - I'll give a slightly different skew on the alchohol stove. At the southern end of the trail alchohol stoves ARE a bit harder for newbies to use / see the flame / etc. - and the scorch marks in the shelter are the evidence. Back in the day there were obvious reasons to use a much lighter alchohol stove over the much heavier alternatives - and canister fuel USED to be hard to find. . Nowadays you can get a 1.8 oz stove titanium pocket rocket for $50 and even shuttle drivers carry canister fuel. Just as the need for bump-boxes was there just several years ago - but not now ... the alchohol stove is a nice "Mcguyverism". To each their own - use the stove you want ...but the alchohol stove is NOT the necessity for an AT thru-hiker that it once was. Also - some of the lightweight alternatives stoves are a bit safer for some folks - in this day and age when common sense ain't so common anymore :) For that reason I usually don't recommend it for newbies.

Lynnette

06-17-2014, 11:33

I have used various alcohol stoves for years. While cooking time is faster in very cold weather on other stoves, I love my alcohol. The temperature is manageable for boiling, baking, simmering of water and food and it is reliable. It packs light and inside my toak pot. I know thrus who used it all the way and I am using one on mine. Hope this helps you have confidence in your A-stove.

FarmerChef

06-17-2014, 11:39

I have used my alcohol stove for what will be the entirety of my AT hike (sections). I've tried the pocket rocket, i've tried wood stoves, and they each have their uses. But for me, I keep coming back to the Alcohol stove for it's simplicity and performance. I've used it from single digits to well into the 90s and it has never let me down. I've also used my PR in low temps and it's been almost as good.

If I were hiking solo and not cooking for 5 I'd probably use the PR for the easy of use (screw on, light and go) but for heating a 4 liter pot alcohol cooks more evenly for me (I don't just heat water).

So I'm not bashing or even degrading other stoves. Just pitching my voice into a chorus of others who say alcohol is a perfectly viable AT stove for thru or section or even day hikers.

QHShowoman

06-17-2014, 21:19

Same reason Wilderness Outfitters in chattanooga sells so many at $25. Solite alcohol stoves are a great stove. even tho you can make them really cheap, I found the $25 price to be great. Been heating my meals the past few days with it, to get used to it.

So, basically, they're selling the Solite for $24 more than what it would cost to make one yourself and you think it's a great price, but somehow the $22 markup on a Jetboil is unfair? I really don't understand the point of this thread. I worked at REI for 4 years. I could probably count on one hand the number of esbit or alcohol stoves I rang up during that entire time. They're simply not as popular with the demographic that shops at REI and similar stores, for a variety of reasons (less experience, new to backpacking, car campers so weight doesn't matter, etc.).

I have both an alcohol stove (mine is from Tinman and cost me $12) and an MSR Pocket Rocket. Most of my trips are <5 days, so I prefer the Pocket Rocket because the weight difference is negligible (I usually only boil water for dinner, so I can get away with a small fuel canister) and it's just easier for me.

Sarcasm the elf

06-17-2014, 21:41

zelph

06-18-2014, 08:59

Alcohols stoves are easy to use and perform well in all weather conditions. Watch Shug use an alcohol stove in -40 degree weather in Northern MN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTuGJgka1qc

Coffee

06-18-2014, 09:16

Pretty sure he is using a white gas stove.

Mags

06-18-2014, 09:43

Alcohol stoves can be used for winter. They use them on the Iditarod after all. (http://zenstoves.net/MusherCooker.htm)

However, it takes a lot more alcohol vs white gas to melt snow.

After a certain point that comes very quickly in winter, white gas (or, in recent years, an inverted canister stove), is going to be much more efficient for melting snow for a backpacker/skier/snowshoer who does not have the logistic support of the Idiatarod (http://www.iditarodforums.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=2172). :)

rafe

06-18-2014, 10:33

rafe

06-18-2014, 10:35

Pretty sure he is using a white gas stove.

Yep, at 5:27. That's a Whisperlite, for sure.

zelph

06-18-2014, 16:42

Yep, at 5:27. That's a Whisperlite, for sure.

Yes, for sure:)

Now watch it again starting at 3:02. He's still in his hammock and was able to get a pot of water boiling using his Fancee Feest alcohol stove. His dependable Fancee Feest at -32 degrees:cool: Life is good with alcohol stoves. The Fancee Feest stove came into being right here on WB in the DIY gear forum. That was back in the day when DIY stoves was the thing to be making. Now it's mainly BIY canister stoves or as Mags likes to do....no cook, go cold;):D just kidding Mags:p (he boils by the gallon):-? must be pasta;)

Make one for yourself:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?27262-Fancyfeast-Stove&highlight=fancee+feest

Hey. watch and listen to Shug about using a Companion Alcohol Burner with a wood burning stove:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KiPp2ZvL3h8

FarmerChef

06-18-2014, 16:56

Yes, for sure:)

Now watch it again starting at 3:02. He's still in his hammock and was able to get a pot of water boiling using his Fancee Feest alcohol stove. His dependable Fancee Feest at -32 degrees:cool: Life is good with alcohol stoves. The Fancee Feest stove came into being right here on WB in the DIY gear forum. That was back in the day when DIY stoves was the thing to be making. Now it's mainly BIY canister stoves or as Mags likes to do....no cook, go cold;):D just kidding Mags:p (he boils by the gallon):-? must be pasta;)

Make one for yourself:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?27262-Fancyfeast-Stove&highlight=fancee+feest

.

Now that you mention it I wonder what an "up"sized alcohol can stove might be like. I'm still searching for alcohol stove nirvana cooking in a 4 liter pot. My penny stove gets it there but it takes a bit. I wonder if I could get more btu's out of a larger diameter stove. Of course, the flames from my penny stove still like the outside of that big, wide 4 liter pot as it is so I might lose more heat that way as well.

zelph

06-18-2014, 17:11

Now that you mention it I wonder what an "up"sized alcohol can stove might be like. I'm still searching for alcohol stove nirvana cooking in a 4 liter pot. My penny stove gets it there but it takes a bit. I wonder if I could get more btu's out of a larger diameter stove. Of course, the flames from my penny stove still like the outside of that big, wide 4 liter pot as it is so I might lose more heat that way as well.

The Fancee Feest has some "capacity" 3oz fuel I was able to get 1 gallon of water to a soft boil. This link is to the Fancee Feest thread in the DIY gear forums:

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?27262-Fancyfeast-Stove&p=402412&viewfull=1#post402412

rocketsocks

06-18-2014, 17:16

Alcohols stoves are easy to use and perform well in all weather conditions. Watch Shug use an alcohol stove in -40 degree weather in Northern MN

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CTuGJgka1qc
I love the "Shug" he's a cool dude!

Another Kevin

06-24-2014, 19:01

I hate my Whisperlite. It's noisy, temperamental, and seems to think I look better with singed eyebrows. But there's nothing like a naphtha stove for melting snow. Otherwise, I bring my soda can stove. It always lights, never flares in my face, and never clogs. And if I should happen to spill fuel, it won't eat holes in nylon. It's not that it doesn't work in winter. It works admirably. The alcohol is just too heavy when you need to boil 4-6 liters of water a day just to drink.

Sent from my SCH-I545 using Tapatalk

RED-DOG

06-24-2014, 19:07

Bro i don't want to sound like an A$$hole but you could have made one youself for around $5 with the Fosters can pot. their really not hard to make.

DLP

06-24-2014, 19:14

I feel like this article and video are worth posting to this discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrGFRhjIFss&sns=em

Plus related article from the PCTA. http://www.pcta.org/2014/dangers-alcohol-stoves-video-17113/

I will admit that the tinkerer in my still likes to mess around making new alcohol stoves and they still make it into my pack often enough. I had to bail from a 9 day trip because of the smoke of the Yosemite Rim and American fires last summer. It was really miserable here. I REALLY appreciate you posting this.

DLP

06-24-2014, 19:25

More PCT stove/fire ban info. http://www.pcta.org/discover-the-trail/backcountry-basics/fire/

(I realize that Ricky and Jack are in GA... but for anybody out here reading...)

Starchild

06-24-2014, 19:47

In my thru I was very happy with the convenience, speed and very long time between fuel resupply of the Jetboil with the smallest canister available. It just made more time for everything else.

In warmer weather I went to Esbit, mainly for morning coffee, weight and simplicity made the difference.

Now working 'for pay' on the trail, needs are changed and alcohol makes more sense for me. The longer cook time is a benefit as I have a whole day to fill that is not constant hiking, and have more time to talk to other hikers at the shelters. Also known and constant resupply opportunity along with the cost makes alcohol a better choice for this.

But if thru hiking again I would happily fire up my Jetboil in a instant, it is just so no nonsense, hot water now, and don't worry about fuel as it lasts so darn long.

WILLIAM HAYES

06-24-2014, 20:04

Venchka

06-24-2014, 22:25

Any valid reasons not to use a Trangia alcohol burner? It seems like the Svea 123 of alcohol burners.

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.

rocketsocks

06-24-2014, 23:03

have used an alcohol stove that I made out of a tea light for years in all kinds of weather. the yuppies at the outfitters did not know what they were talking about and just wanted to sell you a more expensive stove.Probably one of the most primitive and earliest lights/lantern/stove was half a clam shell and some animal fat.

Sarcasm the elf

06-24-2014, 23:15

I had to bail from a 9 day trip because of the smoke of the Yosemite Rim and American fires last summer. It was really miserable here. I REALLY appreciate you posting this.

As a complete and utter coincidence, at around the 1:00 mark you will see a guy in the background with a orange/copper rain jacket, beer and cigarette. That's the guy that later worked at my local outfitter and spent many hours helping me select gear and talking shop. I had no idea that he hiked with Jester until I watched Wizards of the PCT (http://www.tbwproductions.com/) and saw that he hiked with their group for the last 1/3 of the PCT.

zelph

06-24-2014, 23:56

JumpMaster Blaster

06-25-2014, 01:36

I have a Jetboil Flash (which I love). I like being able to control the fire if the need arises, I dont have the open 3" flame to worry about, and I can kill the flame on demand. I keep track of how much fuel I use by writing the # of minutes its been running in permanent marker on the canister. 1 lasts for about 60 minutes at full bore. I've gone thru 3 and they all lasted between 50-60 mins. To boil 16 oz of water I mark off 5 minutes to err on the side of caution.

if I use my cat stove or Esbit or Primus stove that changes what I need to bring. Now I need a pot and/or a mug and have to tailor my meals around that.

I'm going to take all 4 out to field test in the next month. I'm very much a newbie, so even though I did a "boil water test" at home with them all, I'll have a pretty objective view. Maybe.

July

06-25-2014, 01:55

Checking on You Jump Master.

Mags

06-25-2014, 09:43

Wood fires are for melting snow. No stove needed, just pile up the fuel, ignite and put pot on. Be the best scout you can be....:)

When the wood is under several feet of snow, may be a bit more difficult and time consuming.... ;)

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3783/12918593664_480898c812.jpg

Alligator

06-25-2014, 22:47

Any valid reasons not to use a Trangia alcohol burner? It seems like the Svea 123 of alcohol burners.

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.Nothing wrong with using it. There are lighter and more efficient alcohol options. I always liked mine. I have a brasslite as well and I would suggest that its style is also similar to the Svea.

Venchka

06-25-2014, 22:52

Nothing wrong with using it. There are lighter and more efficient alcohol options. I always liked mine. I have a brasslite as well and I would suggest that its style is also similar to the Svea.

I ask because the Trangia has a sliding plate for flame control and shut off. It Certainly looks bulletproof and has been around nearly 100 years. They must be doing something right.

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.

Venchka

06-25-2014, 22:57

Define "more efficient". I'm sure the cat food "stoves" are lighter. Burning alcohol is burning alcohol. Why are some stoves thought to be more efficient?

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.

Alligator

06-25-2014, 23:11

Define "more efficient". I'm sure the cat food "stoves" are lighter. Burning alcohol is burning alcohol. Why are some stoves thought to be more efficient?

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.They use less fuel to boil the same amount of water.

Venchka

06-25-2014, 23:16

They use less fuel to boil the same amount of water.

How do they do that? Side by side with the Trangia? I do not mean to be a PITA, but I just want some facts before I make any changes.
Actually, it's no big deal. If I get an alcohol burner it will be the Trangia.
Thank you.

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.

Alligator

06-25-2014, 23:38

How do they do that? Side by side with the Trangia? I do not mean to be a PITA, but I just want some facts before I make any changes.
Actually, it's no big deal. If I get an alcohol burner it will be the Trangia.
Thank you.

Wayne

Sent from somewhere around here.The Stovies are pretty precise about it but I will attempt a general description. They carefully measure out say 2 cups of water into the pot. They measure wind speed, water temperature, the exact dimensions of the pot, presence of a wind screen, 6 month oil futures in London, etc. Then they measure how long it takes to boil the water how much fuel it took etc. Controlled experiments. They will probably build a stove while conducting said experiment, I think its required actually. Then they will post their data and savagely question each others stove parentage while arguing whether Adam or Eve was the first to cook on a wood stove.

But seriously, folks do run stove experiments under controlled conditions and some stoves are more efficient than others. There's not a lot of spectacular weight savings from the stove itself once you get down to using alcohol stoves but it is significant to the gram weenies if they can squeeze a couple of extra drops of alcohol out of those puppies. Whatever makes them happy.

Now some retailers will provide efficiency ratings for stoves on their websites. I've made comparisons with canister stoves that way.

Odd Man Out

06-26-2014, 00:06

How do they do that? Side by side with the Trangia? I do not mean to be a PITA, but I just want some facts before I make any changes...

I've not use a Trangia, but have used Super Cat stoves. The reason that it is relatively inefficient is that it is a fast burning side burner style stove so much of the heat goes up the side of the pot and is not delivered to the water. Also, with a super cat, the stove must be primed and the heat released during priming is not available for heating water. From tests I've read with a Trangia, it would seem to be a less powerful, but more efficient stove. It's just like cars. A Viper and a Yaris can both burn a gallon of gas. The Viper will do 200 mph (very powerful) but the Yaris will still be going after 40 miles (very efficient). Not all cars get the same gas mileage just as not all alcohol stoves have the same efficiency.

From what I've seen, if you can boil 2 cups of room temperature water in optimal conditions with less than 15 mL of alcohol, your system is pretty efficient. If you can boil 2 cups in under 4 minutes, your system is pretty powerful. With the right system, you can get both. Note that you need to consider the whole system (stove, pot stand, wind screen, and pot). They work together.

yerbyray

06-26-2014, 01:09

When the wood is under several feet of snow, may be a bit more difficult and time consuming.... ;)

https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3783/12918593664_480898c812.jpg

All kidding aside, the best firewood is the "Squaw wood" or is that politically incorrect...the female native american wood that is dead and still hanging on the tree. It dries faster when it rains, it is less likely to be rotten, and easily accessible.

Ya'll probably knew that already.

Mags

06-26-2014, 01:44

All kidding aside, the best firewood is the "Squaw wood" or is that politically incorrect...the female native american wood that is dead and still hanging on the tree. It dries faster when it rains, it is less likely to be rotten, and easily accessible.

Ya'll probably knew that already.

I am pretty sure the park service, if the allowed fires, would strongly suggest to not strip trees of wood be it dead or otherwise. Esp in the quantity needed to melt snow for about 10 people. :)

JumpMaster Blaster

06-26-2014, 05:20

Checking on You Jump Master.
Doing great!

Venchka

06-26-2014, 07:51

Thanks everyone. My mind is at ease now. Or totally befuddled. Given my advanced years I rarely know the difference.
Alligator, thanks for the morning amusement. I like it.
I do tend to sacrifice an ounce or two for dependability and longevity. I err on the side of bulletproof. I am beginning to see the light re: total kitchen weight.
Perhaps I will dust off my BNIB antique Esbit stove and fuel that I have had since forever. I wouldn't want to rush into anything. :D :cool:

Wayne

rafe

06-26-2014, 08:33

colorado_rob

06-26-2014, 08:51

Listed by overall weight (lightest first)

1 alky, esbit
2 canister, passive wood-burning
3 Jetboil
4 white gas, active wood-burning (eg. Zip)

Listed by convenience (most convenient first)

1 Jetboil
2 Canister
3 alky
4 white gas
5 esbit, wood-burning (any)

Listed by heat output and fuel efficiency (most efficient first)

1 white gas, active wood burning
2 Jetboil
3 canister
4 passive wood burning
5 alky
6 esbit

Listed by cost of stove (most $$ first)

1 Jetboil, Zip, white gas
2 Canister, passive wood-burning
3 alky, esbit

So you pick what's important to you and proceed from there. It's not a matter of "belief" so much as habit and personal taste and maybe the specifics of the hike (duration, season, availability of fuel, drought conditions & fire bans, etc.)

Jetboil and canister are very similar -- Jetboil is just a canister stove integrated with pot, lid, heat exchanger, windscreen. Da whole kitchen, minus the spork and plastic cup.

Wood stoves are of two kinds: Sierra Zip stove is an "active" system with a battery-powered fan to breathe air into the fire. Other wood stoves are passive, basically just pot stands under which you build your wood fire.

White gas technology is ancient. Svea, Whisperlite, Coleman Peak-1, etc. Some of these stoves can use ordinary gasoline. Popular on the AT until maybe 15-20 yrs. ago. The Whisperlite Internationale was one of the most hated stoves on the trail because of the intense racket it made. White gas stoves can be noisy. Nice list, summarizes a lot of things. I do, however, dispute that white gas is more efficient than a Jetboil canister. First of all, propane/butane mix has about 10.9 KCAL/gram of heat, whereas gasoline has 10.4. Pretty close, but a slight advantage for canisters. Then there is that heat exchanger on the Jetboil that my field tests have shown to bump the fuel efficiency by about 25% (conservatively) over regular pots w/o a heat exchanger. Jetboils and other canister stoves that have a heat exchanger (are there any others?) are the clear fuel efficiency champs.

Poor old Alcohol comes in at about 6 KCAL/gm, which is the main reason why I do not "believe in alcohol stoves". The fuel is just too darn heavy. Or I'm just too impatient. Both. For short trips though, when you are not doing a lot of water heats, an UL alchy setup can be the overall weight champ easily, again, if one has the patience!

You think a whisperlite is noisy? You should hear the MSR XGK! A rocket. Still, fine stoves, both of them, for high, cold conditions they can't be beat.

rafe

06-26-2014, 09:07

I didn't run the numbers on white gas vs. isobutane (canister fuel) in kcal/gram. But I'll say this -- it was common for hikers to be carrying 16 and 22 oz. canisters of fuel with their Whisperlites. Easily cook three proper meals a day for ten days in a row with that rig.

MSR also has the "Simmerlite" which is a weight-reduced Whisperlite. Still, overall, a lot of infrastructure weight between the bottle, pump and burner unit.

soulrebel

06-26-2014, 09:16

Solid fuel tabs-hexamine-esbit are far lighter than alcohol stoves - metal tri wing is half the weight of the lightest alky stoves. Fuel is definately lighter. As a result, gram for gram on fuel it would be the most efficient of them all for oz of water boiled and fuel consumed. I'd also say that Esbit is definately not last in convenience. It can be hard to light if you don't use a torch lighter, but setup is just as easy as cannister and definately less fiddle than setting and filling an alky stove... Either way none of them are that inconvenient. However cannister stoves, need a more stable platform and are prone to falling over, alky stoves are prone to spillage/waste, over-burning without being able to be extinguished easily, and need a fairly stable platform. However both are faster than solid fuel, mainly because they burn hotter, burn more fuel in less time, and/or produce a larger flame "bloom" than the solid fuel. Great for bigger meals/hot bev, but you need a wider pot for alcohol burners/less important for micro jet cannisters. Esbit is slower burning, small bloom, easy to extinguish, no spillage, no chance of cannister/pin failure, and can be setup on uneven ground with less worry. A better fuel particularly if you use a cup or pot with less than 4 inch diameter... Environment foremost, size of the burner, and pot size play a part in the scenario. For example, I wouldn't take solid fuel or alky to a windy coastal trip, or high alt mountains...

Mags

06-26-2014, 09:26

I backpack with this stove now:

The beef simmered in wine is divine...

http://pmags2.jzapin.com/gallery2/d/16031-2/aal_006.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=431e5080470f5484c5d00571 8e0181b2

Odd Man Out

06-26-2014, 10:56

Listed by overall weight (lightest first)

1 alky, esbit
2 canister, passive wood-burning
...

Another thing to list might be fuel availability, which of course would be quite variable depending on where you hike.

As for the rankings of alcohol stoves, I would suggest they are highly variable because among the types of stoves listed, they are the most diverse, especially in the areas of power, efficiency, and convenience. It is not uncommon to see people criticize alcohol stoves based on their experience with (or what they have been told about) rather unsophisticated systems.

jimmyjam

06-26-2014, 10:57

Hard to beat a Coleman for camping . I have one over 30 years old- it just won't quit.

Sent from my SCH-S720C using Tapatalk 2

Another Kevin

06-26-2014, 19:59

From what I've seen, if you can boil 2 cups of room temperature water in optimal conditions with less than 15 mL of alcohol, your system is pretty efficient. If you can boil 2 cups in under 4 minutes, your system is pretty powerful. With the right system, you can get both. Note that you need to consider the whole system (stove, pot stand, wind screen, and pot). They work together.

Yup! I can make the 15 ml bogey but not the 4 minute one. Fine with me, I wasn't in a hurry, so I'm not devoting a lot more time to stove-tuning. Maybe after I accidentally stomp my current one. :)

I am pretty sure the park service, if the allowed fires, would strongly suggest to not strip trees of wood be it dead or otherwise. Esp in the quantity needed to melt snow for about 10 people. :)

Uhm, what he said. I know that it's the law in my state to use only dead and down wood for a campfire. Standing dead wood, or dead wood still on the tree, is off limits. And I don't want to mess with a wood fire several times a day to refill water bottles.

colorado_rob

06-26-2014, 20:33

From what I've seen, if you can boil 2 cups of room temperature water in optimal conditions with less than 15 mL of alcohol, your system is pretty efficient. If you can boil 2 cups in under 4 minutes, your system is pretty powerful.I hate to keep dwelling on actual heat values and numbers, call it an ex-occupational hazard, but I know I get right around 16-20 2-cup boils out of a 4 ounce canister in a Jetboil, meaning 0.2-0.25 ounces of fuel per boil, and it takes about 90 seconds. 15ml of Alcohol is close to 0.5 ounces, about twice the fuel, and a whole lot more time. Alcohol is simply not an efficient fuel; the heat content is 60% of propane/butane.

Of course, the 4 ounces of propane/butane come in a 3.5 ounce canister, which is dead weight. But still, even an alcohol container weighs about an ounce, more for a big bottle, so the total weight to do 18 2-cup boils (the average of 16-20) would be about 10 ounces, vs. 7.5 for a propane/butane canister. For short trips, say 9 boils, that's 5.5 ounces for alcohol (4.5+1 for bottle), the same 7.5 for a canister, and alcohol wins. So from a pure weight standpoint, short trips alcohol is most efficient, longer trips, canisters take over.

So again, not a matter of believing, just hard math and experience. I've tried alcohol for weekend trips, saves a few ounces, but I just cannot get over the glacial pace of my water heating. I suppose I need to chill out a bit....

Alligator

06-26-2014, 22:37

I hate to keep dwelling on actual heat values and numbers, call it an ex-occupational hazard, but I know I get right around 16-20 2-cup boils out of a 4 ounce canister in a Jetboil, meaning 0.2-0.25 ounces of fuel per boil, and it takes about 90 seconds. 15ml of Alcohol is close to 0.5 ounces, about twice the fuel, and a whole lot more time. Alcohol is simply not an efficient fuel; the heat content is 60% of propane/butane.

Of course, the 4 ounces of propane/butane come in a 3.5 ounce canister, which is dead weight. But still, even an alcohol container weighs about an ounce, more for a big bottle, so the total weight to do 18 2-cup boils (the average of 16-20) would be about 10 ounces, vs. 7.5 for a propane/butane canister. For short trips, say 9 boils, that's 5.5 ounces for alcohol (4.5+1 for bottle), the same 7.5 for a canister, and alcohol wins. So from a pure weight standpoint, short trips alcohol is most efficient, longer trips, canisters take over.

So again, not a matter of believing, just hard math and experience. I've tried alcohol for weekend trips, saves a few ounces, but I just cannot get over the glacial pace of my water heating. I suppose I need to chill out a bit....There are points where weight catches up for different stove+fuel types.

First though, you have taken Odd Man Out out of context. He's discussing efficiency vs power for alcohol stoves.

Second, you are mixing up ounces of weight and fluid ounces--15ml=.507 fluid oz. The specific gravity of say denatured alcohol is 0.81. Make that 0.81g/ml and that 15 ml is about 0.42 oz. So 18 boils is 7.56 oz. I just happen to have an 8 oz nestle water bottle handy and it weighs 0.37 oz. I don't have the typical 12 bottle I would put alcohol in handy to weigh but even if I double that it's only .74 oz. So about 8.3 oz.

Third then, the alcohol is 0.8 oz overweight. And you are right, it's about 2:1 in weight per boil. So in about 4 boils, the alcohol user is equivalent in weight and less for the next 14 boils. So you are carrying less weight for 4 boils and more for 14 boils, however long that takes you. But on average, you are carrying more weight with the jetboil.

Finally, I am reasonably confident that you are stuck with a fixed stove+pot weight with a jetboil that can be beat with an alcohol+pot setup. Windscreen + stove + titan tea kettle ~6 oz vs. ti jetboil at 8.5 oz.

Your math is not adding up in your example. But as you said there times and situations were the efficiency switches(and here mainly efficiency =weight). But for 18 boils, it's still alcohol over the Jetboil.

Odd Man Out

06-26-2014, 22:50

rickycodie

06-26-2014, 23:41

Try re hydrating your in a peanut butter jar for a while first, like put lunch in while eating breakfast. Then you just heat it up. It uses less fuel.

Sent from my HTC6500LVW using Tapatalk

Odd Man Out

06-26-2014, 23:59

Thanks Alligator for the detailed analysis. BTW yet another variable that was not taken into account for a long distance hike, how many days would you have to carry two canisters because one might run out before the next resupply point? I don't have any long distance (more than a week) hikes planned in the near future so the nuts and bolts how many days it might take for a Jetboil to have less weight carried per day than an alcohol system is so much a concern for me. I think the take home lesson is that the calculation is so complicated and based on so many variables that will be different for each individual system, person, and hike, it is difficult to make generalizations. FWIW, I'm not really much of a gram weenie. I'm using alcohol stoves mainly because I like building, testing, and using them; they are cool, and it gives me something to do with empty V8 Juice cans. I would also add that if you have an alcohol stove that can do 4 minute boils vs a Jetboil doing 2 minute boils, I don't consider that a whole lot more time. As a very out of shape hiker, I need the rest. Maybe I should go build a SLOWER stove ;-)

Alligator

06-27-2014, 01:44

It is very dependent on the individual and the hike planned, I know compared to other hikers, I use a bit more fuel than many state. This is mainly because I have 3+ cups of hot beverages daily, very often a hot breakfast, and then what one might say a dinner and a supper. I made myself a spreadsheet a ways back and plugged in the stoves I had. I extended it out to 10 days and used my own average fuel usage per day for each stove and then added in the stove weights and the storage bottle weights based on the amount of fuel they would carry. My Simmerlite would out perform my Trangia after 3 days, for some reason, my Trangia is a pig on fuel when I use it. I can't remember why though, I think we had it figured out at one time. This was before I had a canister stove. I find I use about one of the 8oz canisters every 5-6 days. I can fine tune a hike longer than that with a small canister or a half-empty one. There's a large size canister but if I remember correctly the empty weight is too high on that vs. a combination of smaller ones. On the AT, in most cases, you can resupply before the canister runs out. It's more like you get stuck with it because you can't throw it out. This is why empty and half-empty canisters are found at times in the shelters or left at a hostel/resupply point. The little and big ones are sometimes hard to find, but Wal-Mart carries the medium size ones. Problem is they are expensive and for me, my Brasslite still beats out the Lite Max. But for longer trips, the difference is small and I do enjoy the supreme easiness of using the canister stove.

I've got a woodburner too but I need to do some testing in different conditions before I give an opinion on it. I am more of a lightweight hiker myself. I definitely consider weight but I will also add in some comfort items.

rafe

06-27-2014, 06:39

Thanks Alligator for the detailed analysis. BTW yet another variable that was not taken into account for a long distance hike, how many days would you have to carry two canisters because one might run out before the next resupply point?

That to me is the most serious downside of canister stoves -- the difficulty of knowing just how much fuel you have left. I'm often having to decide whether to discard a nearly-empty canister, double up on canisters, or risk running out of fuel. Not an insurmountable issue by any means but it's a problem that could use fixin'.

colorado_rob

06-27-2014, 08:56

... you are mixing up ounces of weight and fluid ounces--15ml=.507 fluid oz. The specific gravity of say denatured alcohol is 0.81. Make that 0.81g/ml and that 15 ml is about 0.42 oz. So 18 boils is 7.56 oz. I just happen to have an 8 oz nestle water bottle handy and it weighs 0.37 oz. I don't have the typical 12 bottle I would put alcohol in handy to weigh but even if I double that it's only .74 oz. So about 8.3 oz... I guess that's why I'm and "ex-engineer" (actually, retired), not careful enough with my numbers! I wasn't mixing up fluids and weights, but I did assume the specific weight of Alcohol was closer to water, anyway, thanks for the correction. The alcohol bottle I used once is a full ounce, nice to know there are <1/2 ounce that hold 8 ounces. I have this all in a spreadsheet somewhere, I'm going to have to find it because I know my numbers show a crossover at way less than 18 boils; it was something like 3 days for two people, which for me is about 12 boils.

Bottom line is that I sure wish I could get over those alcohol boil times! It tickles my fancy to screw a canister on, turn a valve, push an igniter and 90 seconds later (for 12 ounces) I have a cup of coffee.

colorado_rob

06-27-2014, 09:04

That to me is the most serious downside of canister stoves -- the difficulty of knowing just how much fuel you have left. I'm often having to decide whether to discard a nearly-empty canister, double up on canisters, or risk running out of fuel. Not an insurmountable issue by any means but it's a problem that could use fixin'. Yeah, a downside to canisters, but experience helps, I know I get 7-8 days with a small one, a full 2 weeks with a large one, I never have had to carry two, but I have discarded a few partials. With enough experience, a quick shake of a canister tells you how much is left closely enough.

The Alchy/Canister debate is endless, but one of the points I was trying to make is that it's not about "not believeing" in Alcohol setups, it's more of a conscious decision based on experience.

BTW, one other point: I carry emergency fire starters in the form of "trioxane", which I think is essentially the same as esbit? Not 100% sure, since I've never carried actual Esbit. But I carry the trioxane for fire starting, two 1/2 ounce little blocks. Essentially alcohol in a solid form. Turns out they work great for a backup fuel for a Jetboil; set one on a rock, light it, set the Jetboil right on top. 6 minutes later you have 2 cups of boiling water. Since I carry these little puppies anyway (again, for emergency or sometimes social fires), I feel better about carrying nearly-empty canisters, knowing I can get a couple more boils if a canister goes dead. Used them once in that situation.

rafe

06-27-2014, 09:16

Bottom line is that I sure wish I could get over those alcohol boil times! It tickles my fancy to screw a canister on, turn a valve, push an igniter and 90 seconds later (for 12 ounces) I have a cup of coffee.

The BTU output of canisters is is a big plus, but for me what kills the deal with alky stoves is the inability to regulate the flame, or to extinguish it safely. So you end up in a guessing-game with regard to the initial fuel charge. If you guess on the low side, you'll have to wait for the stove to cool down before you can start it again. There's a priming phase, at least with some alky stoves -- more wasted fuel and time.

White gas, esbit, and wood don't have that problem, you get to look at the fuel. (OK, white gas stoves need priming too.) Always a compromise, always a tradeoff, no stove is perfect.

What is pretty amazing is how very fuel-efficient hiking is in general -- compared to many other recreations (motorboats, jet-skis, snowmobiles, downhill skiing, even golf... with motorized carts.)

Odd Man Out

06-27-2014, 09:48

...Bottom line is that I sure wish I could get over those alcohol boil times! It tickles my fancy to screw a canister on, turn a valve, push an igniter and 90 seconds later (for 12 ounces) I have a cup of coffee.

I guess that's the bottom line. Each system has its advantages and disadvantages and each person has their priorities and each hike is different. Then each person gets to choose what works best for them.

colorado_rob

06-27-2014, 09:51

What is pretty amazing is how very fuel-efficient hiking is in general -- compared to many other recreations (motorboats, jet-skis, snowmobiles, downhill skiing, even golf... with motorized carts.) Yep, we're certainly a green crew, aren't we? Well, except for the large amount of greenhouse gases some of us emit from all the freeze-dried food consumption...

I found my spreadsheet, I was indeed assuming 1/2 ounce of Alcohol for a 2-cup boil, which is the number I keep reading for an efficient Alchy setup, so it does appear 15ml (0.42 oz) is a very efficient stove. Anyway, at 0.5 ounces and a 0.75 ounce container (mine weighs 1 ounce though), the crossover to where a canister stove is more weight efficient is 13 2-cup boils, which is a 3-day weekend outing for myself and my wife together, basically the Alchy and Jetboil would be a dead-heat (!) tie.

My canister numbers are based on actual field testing, the 0.5 oz alcohol numbers are based on the 0.5 ounces per boil I read about, not personally tested, though I should as I do have a stove, though not the most efficient, I'm sure.

All this discussion makes me want to try my little Alchy setup one more time for solo weekend trips and "practice" my patience.

Wil

06-27-2014, 10:02

what kills the deal with alky stoves is the inability to regulate the flame, or to extinguish it safely. So you end up in a guessing-game with regard to the initial fuel charge.It's a guessing game only if you're guessing. Experience fixes that, but a snuffer is only a few tenths of an ounce.

There's a priming phase, at least with some alky stoves -- more wasted fuel and timeI hold the pot over the flame, a few inches up, during priming; speeds up the priming and uses those BTUs fairly efficiently.

Always a compromise, always a tradeoff, no stove is perfect.Agreed.

TNhiker

06-27-2014, 10:10

What is pretty amazing is how very fuel-efficient hiking is in general -- compared to many other recreations (motorboats, jet-skis, snowmobiles, downhill skiing, even golf... with motorized carts.)

that can be debated.........

driving 3 hours one way to do a 5-10 mile hike---i wouldnt exactly that being fuel efficient................

but, i do it every weekend........

Alligator

06-27-2014, 16:38

Colorado_rob I just do something else while the stove is working...inflate a pad, fetch water, collect firewood, pull out the sleeping bag, etc. If the alcohol is measured into the stove, it's going to burn out. Or keep an eye out for steam, I often have a camp cup ready for a hot drink. My dinner pretty much always needs to sit and rehydrate anyway.

Odd Man Out

06-27-2014, 23:07

The BTU output of canisters is is a big plus, but for me what kills the deal with alky stoves is the inability to regulate the flame, or to extinguish it safely. So you end up in a guessing-game with regard to the initial fuel charge. If you guess on the low side, you'll have to wait for the stove to cool down before you can start it again. There's a priming phase, at least with some alky stoves -- more wasted fuel and time.

It's true that I don't regulate the flames, but I wonder how many Jetboil users take advantage of that feature when they are using it just to boil water. As for the other common shortcomings of alcohol stoves, I have worked to solve these problems. My stove doesn't have a priming phase in that you light it and put the pot on immediately so no heat is wasted. It does burn slower for about 10 seconds until the jets get going full blast. I cut the bottom two inches off a 12 oz pop can to use as a snuffer. It instantly extinguishes the stove. I don't guess about fuel load. I just fill the stove. When done, I put it out with the snuffer and suck the extra fuel back into the bottle with one of these.

http://packafeather.com/fuelbottle.html

zelph

06-29-2014, 14:15

I backpack with this stove now:

The beef simmered in wine is divine...

http://pmags2.jzapin.com/gallery2/d/16031-2/aal_006.jpg?g2_GALLERYSID=431e5080470f5484c5d00571 8e0181b2

Good also for melting snow for 10 people:)

handlebar

06-29-2014, 17:44

Colorado Rob, I used a pocket rocket last summer on the CT. Perhaps I didn't set up in very good places. It seemed rather unstable with my 1.3 L TI pot when compared to the Alcy Stove (the adjustable-flame Featherfire) that I used for the entire PCT and all of the CDT. Also, the PR's efficiency seemed to be seriously degraded by even slight breezes. Do you use some kind of wind screen with yours?

For the OP, one advantage of the alcohol stoves is that they will burn denatured ethanol available in quart cans at hardware stores in the paint section or methanol available in the 12 oz. long necked plastic bottles at auto parts stores, gas stations, Wally World, etc. I found this fuel much easier to obtain, especially when hiking trails less popular than the triple crown trails, than either canisters or white gas. Have burned unleaded gas in a MSR Simmerlite more or less efficiently, so that substitute fuel is also readily available. Here's my stove-fuel plan:

No stove: Hot and humid summer hiking in the mid-atlantic states. (I normally crave a hot meal at the end of the day, but not when it's steamy).

Four-season trips (no fire bans): Featherfire Alcy stove (used in temps down to -10F) providing there will be flowing water sources.

Three-season trips with fire bans in effect: Pocket Rocket canister stove. (Won't work well below +10F)

Winter trips where melting snow for water will likely be required: MSR Simmerlite white gas stove.

Harald Hope

07-17-2014, 18:52

One thing to consider in comparing efficiencies of stoves is the real world performance, but even more important, and something it seems like most articles on alcohol/cannister fail to really be fair about is the stove/screen/pot setup, it's almost grossly unfair and biased, for example, a fancy feast, which is the least efficient stove I know of with alcohol, will be matched with basically either no screen or a totally randomly designed wind screen.

All of the gas or white gas products are industrially produced systems, so comparisons should be between thoroughly designed and tested systems, not between randomly selected stuff. As the somewhat legendary sgt rock told me when I was reworking his ion stove design, FOCUS ON THE SCREEN. And boy was he right, it's all about the screen if you are talking performance.

My final stove setup for example, in real world outdoors settings, is now getting roughly these number: tea water boil, near boil: 6ml usually will do it.

2 cups boil, about 15 ml to be on the safe side, but that usually gives me a boil of the food once I add it to the water in the pot. This is with a narrow pot. Wide pots will give better results.

Comparing apples to apples, I did the math, based on both my own findings, and the average of good performance claims for whisperlite and cannister.

One of the articles linked to above seemed to be using some fairly non true numbers for alcohol and deduced that in terms of weight, alcohol stops being lighter at 10 days. I was unable to get those numbers to line up, in my math, alcohol is always lighter, with an exception of the first two days of a non resupplied 14 day trip. Further, there's the question of weight carried per mile, a much more interesting number since that is what you actually deal with day to day. Alcohol, because of the very low starting system weight, again, is the clear winner no matter how many days the trip lasts.

Here's my numbers:

http://adropofrain.net/2013/08/fuel-consumption-and-pack-weight-for-alcohol-vs-canister-backpacking-stoves/

and a sample stove:

http://adropofrain.net/2013/06/make-your-own-ion-alcohol-fuel-stove-12-ounce-slx-2-cups-of-water-boil/

I have not yet updated that blog to note my last and I think final modification to the screen design, a low second external ring which I discovered because my test setup included an exhaust fan of sufficient size where it started creating real world use test conditions, ie, a light breeze crossing the top and bottom of the screen.

I found sgt rock because like most people, I'd first made the fancy feast, which I now would only use for very fast but super inefficient boils on a wide pot for more than 2 people, then I'd evolved slightly to the penny stove, a theoretically neat pressurized stove, but I just was not getting the simplicity and ease of lighting and efficiency I'd been hoping for.

The fancy feast I never considered at all for real backpacking because it's so awkward to light and prime, and while very hot, it's also very inefficient. One thing you learn while testing stoves is to recognize the strong whiff of unburned alcohol, which ALWAYS means you have an inefficient stove, that smell is non combusted or partially combusted fuel, like burning your car's engine with a too rich fuel mixture.

I believe zelph's starlight is one example of a stove that solves these issues, if it's coupled with a custom screen of the right width and height and air inlet surface area.

There's also a small issue of ethanol / methanol, and the energy contained in each type. SLX, which I resisted for a long time because it's 50% methanol, in fact works great precisely because it is 50% methanol. That means: easier to light, better at higher altitudes, little to almost no sooting, unlike ethanol. Some stove makers who will go unnamed use ethanol without really telling you, unless you push it and ask them directly, then make certain efficiency claims that you will never achieve using slx, you have to up the fuel about 15% or so with methanol/ethanol mix like SLX. SLX is good fuel in my opinion, I am sold.

With this said, here's the advantages of a GOOD alcohol stove/screen/pot system:

Utterly and completely silent. I don't see a lot of people mention this truly heavenly and wonderful advantage, no idea why, I hate the roar of the carbon fueled combustion engines that are all gas stype stoves, I go backpackign to get away from that stuff, not to carry it with me. That's aesthetic and quality of life issue, it matters to some, not to others, but it's a massive and simply impossible to quantify advantage, no other stove system except wood offers this.
Always lighter, no matter what badly done reports claim. Always in particular lighter if you use pound/mile math, ie, what you really carry through the trip. I've seen some real efforts to contort data, one big one is claims of boils per canister being inflated by simply only boiling 1.5 cups per meal. Hint: the same advantage applies to all fuel sources, boil less water, use less fuel.
Incredibly easy to fill and light and setup. A good system is no harder to setup than a cannister stove, and has a real screen as part of the system. Bad alcohol setups, which I have used oin several week trips, are picky, hard to light, almost impossible to refill if they run out etc, and just generally a pain. It's a drag that sgt rock basically figured this out years ago, which is why he stopped actively pursuing research, I think the starlite too is another solution, similar but different in method. The point is the stuff has been solved.
Bring the exact amount of fuel you want, always, each and every trip. This is slam dunk, only white gas and alcohol give this advantage.
No disposable cartridges. I care about stuff like that. Alcohol because of how it's sold also has disposable containers, but it doesn't need to, you could easily refill from a 50 gallon barrel if we lived like that, there's nothing that forces alcohol to be sold in metal containers like it is. 1 quart is about 128 two cup boils, call it 64 days.

Since silence, ease of use, ease of supply/refill, and good / decent cooking times make the choice trivial for me, I am also not pursuing more tests at this point. Other people have different priorities, but the important thing to do is not to pretend that a choice that hits all the points you like or are important to your own style of hiking is then the 'best' choice, or to, even more common, just make up stuff to pretend that choice is technically the best in all areas.

For example, these do not matter to me, and so do not factor into my choice (but since silence is to me the winner no matter what, it wouldn't matter):

90 second boils. I don't care. A cup of tea takes me 5 minutes or less to prepare water for. As sgt rock noted with some wit in an email to me, if you're in such a hurry, why are you walking? That's a man who gets it. 2 cup boils, about 10 to 12 minutes. Fine, I like it where I am, always. If this is a priority, an inefficient stove can halve your cook time with alcohol, and will bring the trip weights closer to cannister. I chart this in the link above.
Ease of setup? A good alcohol system is easy to setup, and has a much better screen setup than a top burner canister.
Machine roar. If you miss it, you got it with gas fuels.
Hotter, and easier to cook with. Definitely you want a canister I'd guess. You can do real cooking on alcohol, but it's harder, and not nearly as flexible. But if you are cooking, then efficiency is not the reason for the choice, so that's fine too, a very valid reason.
Snow melting: forget alcohol.
I had some bad data for wide pot 4 cup boils, and recently made a setup for a 1.3 liter evernew pot, with a 12ox can ion stove, with good screen etc, and was stunned by how fast and efficient it was. So my charted numbers for 4 cup boils on ion are way off, the efficiency is way better than I listed. Cook times, probably too long for some, about 18 minutes to boil 4 cups.
Whisperlite by the way has some very bad data too on efficiency, it's actually quite competitive on very long trips or high volume boil trips or snow, if you learn to optimize it.

There's some essentially untrue claims made about alcohol however that should also be debunked: US ethanol is produced by high energy consumption agribusiness gmo mutant corn and essentially is about a 0 energy return over the oil based sources used to grow it and produce the alcohol in industrial ethanol plants (in other words, the total energy inputs, mostly oil based, required to produce one unit of energy in ethanol are quite close to the end energy yield, give or take, not to mention totally unsustainable farming practices required to generate the tonnage of corn / etc). Sad but true. The use of the term 'green' with ethanol is a weird thing, though alcohol exhaust emissions are less vile than carbon fuels for sure at the final point of burning. Methanol I believe is industrially produced from methane, natural gas.

Ethanol in theory could be produced with less negattive ecological impact, but the stuff you will buy at the hardware store isn't. Methanol can also be produced from non carbon fuel sources, at some level, if you ignore the energy required to do those conversions, but it isn't.

Harald Hope

07-17-2014, 19:13

Odd Man Out

07-18-2014, 00:15

Oh, I almost forgot, another common error or oversight I see when people talk about alcohol vs canisters, it's caused by engiish measurement units, and is instantly obvious when you change to metric. So you will see people say, ok, I use 1/2 ounce per boil (measured), so that's one ounce per day. Then they skip the fact that the specific gravity of alcohol is about 0.8, which means one fluid ounce of alcohol weighs 0.8 ounces. ie, 15ml of fuel weighs 12 grams, roughly.

I think this oversight or mental hiccup causes a lot of the false reports that alcohol weighs more, plus people using improperly screened fancy feast stoves, which can easily use up to an ounce to boil 2 cups, if you can even get a boil in wind. remote canister stoves aadd in some weight, but allow more normal heat/wind screens to be used, which is why guys like roger from bpl made his own version, light, but flimsy I believe, to get around that built in issue with canisters.

Anyway, it's always fun revisiting the stove question, but it's more fun when apples are compared to apples, ie, goog quality setups of any type, then the actual reasons for selection can be talked about and compared.

Thanks for the detailed analysis. I too have done lots of testing on various alcohol stove systems and have come to pretty much all the same conclusions. I would also add that you don't necessarily need to give up power (i.e. short boil times) for efficiency (i.e. low fuel volumes to boil 2 cups of water). I think my system meets all of your design parameters and will boil 2 cups with 13 mL fuel in just under 4 minutes.If interested, you might want to play with the Easy Capillary Hoop Stove by Tetkoba. It's an amazing stove and easy to make.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbHHQrh9m58&list=PL4BA305BB19EAB1C5&index=2

Harald Hope

07-18-2014, 16:32

Odd Man Out, I'll check that out for sure, I like to keep an open, empirical mind, to these questions. That's what led me to do the research and math. I hope that stove isn't all you say it is, lol, I had just settled in with the ion setup, which I really like. I'd say the reason you got the same or similar results as I did is that this is basic physics and chemistry, plus a bit of engineering to get to the desired efficiencies. Even though oil/gas fuels container more energy per weight unit than alcohol, you can heavily tweak alcohol stoves and screens to get very high efficiencies, another fact that is very rarely mentioned in comparison threads and articles. I was very skeptical for example of 50+ % efficiency claimed by sgt rock for his ion stove, but testing and reproducing it finally convinced me that it is in fact real.

If the 13ml / 4min times are true, and if ease of setup etc are correct,t then in my opinion, the only reason to use canister is either snow melt or real cooking with variable temps required. But we'll see how real world empirically reproducible tests do on that design.

I'd not heard of the Easy Capillary Hoop Stove by Tetkoba so I'll definitely check it out.

I want to correct one thing in my first post, re the exhaust emissions, I believe natural gas emissions are reasonably clean, I do not know about butane, and I do know that methanol is highly poisonous when burned, or even opened and breathed in, so the emissions thing I think I would remove from my statement pending hard data on the exhaust composition of each fuel type. Ethanol I believe is pretty safe but I can't be certain, and nothing we burn here in the USA is safe because of the toxic adulterants.

Watching those videos is interesting, that's well crafted stuff. One thing however I note, they are using 30ml in at least the main video, that boils 400ml water in about 5:30, which means about 500 ml in 7 minutes, but they are also not using a screen at all, so that will signficantly sloww the boil.

Some of the videos I watched in that series aren't showing how much water is boiled. Have you built this one yourself and gotten 13 ml 500ml water boil?

I think I'm going to check this stove out, but my guess is it won't hit the efficiency of the ion because of the faster burn.

Speaking for myself, I usually won't make a stove that requires redbull or other weird things I would never ever buy except for the can, but this one looks interesting enough to warrant buying the cans just for the materials, won't be the first time, I never drink the gunk in the cans I use, just pour it down the drain.

I'm wondering if this chs type will hit the other goal: reasonably fast boils without priming. I know from my tests that a properly made penny stove hits about 20ml boils, give or take, for 500ml, but it's a pain to prime.

There's some other factors I didn't mention, any stove that requires priming, particularly from the base up, is a fire hazard, my penny stoves all required using a small priming tray to get consistent burns, and that was right on the ground, well, I use an aluminum disk under the stove, but still.

Stoves that sit right on the ground without a base of some type can get VERY hot, I can show a picture of a test wood board I use in tests that is covered with small black circles where baseless stoves were used.

Another consideration is the use of a pot stand, which I now insist on, or the other alternate, using the screen plus rods/tent stakes for the stand too, personally though I don't get that one, if I'm carrying extra stakes for cooking, then I might as well just use a stand. Using a stand is much safer in my opinion than setting the pot right on the stove, if you bump the pot, the stove can go over, and in these dry times, that's just not worth it.

http://adropofrain.net/2012/05/making-an-ultralight-titanium-pot-stand-for-your-alcohol-stove/

pot stands can be made super solid out of stainless steel rod or bike spokes, out of what's called 'music wire' from Ace hardware's hobby metal rack, where you can also get the aluminum connector tubes.

The CHS stove is quite similar in concept to the ion, with the exception of the inner insert, it's small, simple, relies on top holes to create the flame, is easy to fill, easy to light, and basically removes all the issues people might have with less well designed stoves. For me now, for example, I wont' use a stove without a pot stand, or one that requires priming, or that does not have a custom screen to fit the pot being used. Screens have to be very precisely fitted to the pot, that's I believe one reason caldera cones work decently, it's not the cone, which I also tested and dropped because it's so hard to pack, and so awkward, and such a pain to pull the pot out of if and when it warps a bit, but rather the precise sizing to the pot that I believe creates most if not almost all of the advantage. But you can get most of that advantage from a cylinder screen that is custom sized/fitted to your pot, and that matches you stove.

Thanks for the ideas though. There's some specifics too that are very important that I did not see mentioned but maybe it's in one of the other videos for t6he CHS thing, height of pot over burning area, that's a very important one too. Also with a screen for a higher output stove like this, may require changes, particularly in diameter, but it may not.

Wülfgang

07-18-2014, 16:52

I have both a Jetboil and an alcohol stove.

The Jetboil really is an efficient machine, boiling water in about 2-3 minutes. It's a bit heavy, IMO, for a thru hike though, at about 1 lb.

My alcohol stove (good ol' fancy feast) is equally awesome, but in different ways. It weighs next to nothing, has no moving parts, and is 100% fail safe. If it bends, I just bend it back. Downsides are it boils water in about 6-8 minutes, and is really ONLY good for boiling water, not simmering or actual cooking. Also as mention alcohol has much lower potential energy than isobutane so weight-to-energy conversion is much lower. However, you are saving so much weight in the system as a whole it's still a win.

I like both, and it depends on your preferred style of eating on trail and your weight preferences. Those dudes at the gear shop sound like pretentious yups.

Wülfgang

07-18-2014, 16:59

And for specifics, My jet boil boils 2 cups of water in about 2:30 @ 5300 ft elevation. Alcohol stove boils 2 cups in about 7 minutes, using 1 ounce of fuel.

Harald Hope

07-18-2014, 18:08

Wülfgang, as I've tried to indicate, the notion that there is 'an alcohol stove' (ie, one thing that is that category) is just false, just as false by the way as saying there is only one type of canister stove, there are specific setups, with massively varying efficiencies. you yourself for example are not comparing alcohol per se to all canisters, you are comparing it to one specific and very expensive setup, your jetboil. Try to see that point. I would and do consider 2 cup boils requiring anything over 15ml/1/2 ounce liquid of alcohol to be failures, unless I'm looking for fast boils, then 20ml is the max. 1 ounce is what you get if you don't do any work or testing, and just sort of whip something together randomly. Anything over 20ml is not even worth using in my opinion, because it's simply not a well designed system. 1 ounce is 30 ml, that's about if I remember right, a 25% efficiency in the setup, ie, absolutely terrible, about as bad as you can possible get. That's not unlike taking a drill and trying to whip up your own canister top. It may if you lucky work, but it will be so bad and inefficient that you'd never use it, yet for some reason, there's a tendency to do such comparisons anyway to justify (I'm guessing that's the reason) things like a jetboil purchase.

A decent stove, alcohol, with a simmer ring, can do basic lower temp cooking, but I would never suggest it's as easy to do or use as a canister stove. Fancy feast stoves are durable and simple, but they suffer from some pretty major drawbacks, one of which is the ground temperature sucking the heat out of the alcohol until the stove won't even boil water, something I discovered one colder day in winter testing one outside, that's when I stopped using them for anything but testing. You can make an easy base for fancy feasts because it is the stand, so the base has to be so solidly attached that it doesn't wobble.

It would be nice to see people begin to realize that a non designed can burning some fuel is not at all comparable to some industrial engineered stove like all canisters and white gas stoves are, particularly not the most expensive and engineered, and expensive, of them all, the jetboil. That's like comparing a home made gocart with a prius, it's a silly comparison, why people insist on making it is truly beyond me. If you like your jetboil,l which you had better like, lol, it's the biggest and most expensive thing you can use, be happy and like it, but don't try to make false comparisons to justify it, just enjoy it and note you have never used a real alcohol setup so there's nothing to say there. I've never used a jetboil, and never will, since it's not the way I want to backpack, so I have really nothing to say about it beyond that it seems very inflexible and clunky as something to carry with me backpacking, but that's just a preference.

If you like canisters just enjoy them, but there's this tendency to make up bad data or bad testing or whatever to further justify that subjective preference, that's what I am pointing out here in this thread, if you are doing empirical apples to apples testing, ie, fully designed and tested systems (such as jetboil/pot setup) against fully designed and tested systems (such as cone/starlight, or ion/custom fit screen), then the numbers don't add up. Repeating, if you are in such a hurry, why are you walking? I'm already where I want to be when I'm out there, so I don't find myself rushed, though I certainly like dropping the fiddle factor down, that's what made me pursue the question of alcohol stoves in the first place after my first raw tests with fancy feasts and other low tech solutions.

Odd Man Out, I remembered I have two redbulls I found in recycling bin, so I only need one more to make that stove, it's worth a test, I'll post my results briefly here, or in a new thread if that's more appropriate, just to see if you can get a similar efficiency to the ion but faster boil times. To my mind, if you get say, 6 to 7 minutes, in the real world, that is so close to 2.5 minutes for a jetboil that it's almost absurd to pretend that 3.5 to 4.5 minutes matter when you are backpacking, there's something very odd in that situation to me but I won't try to understand the mindset behind that, to me it just sounds like justifying something. Just be happy with what you like is my suggestion, stick to real facts and apple to apple comparisons and it's a lot easier for people outside reading discussions like this to actually get real information to base decisions on. So to those people reading, when someone says they need one ounce of alcohol to boil their 2 cups, just move on and read the next person, that's not useful information. If the amount is closer to 1/2 ounce liquid, ie, 12 grams, you're in the ballpark and tha tsystem is a real one that has been developed and tested, just like all the industrial gas systems have been.

Wülfgang

07-18-2014, 19:17

Wülfgang, as I've tried to indicate, the notion that there is 'an alcohol stove' (ie, one thing that is that category) is just false, just as false by the way as saying there is only one type of canister stove, there are specific setups, with massively varying efficiencies. you yourself for example are not comparing alcohol per se to all canisters, you are comparing it to one specific and very expensive setup, your jetboil. Try to see that point. I would and do consider 2 cup boils requiring anything over 15ml/1/2 ounce liquid of alcohol to be failures, unless I'm looking for fast boils, then 20ml is the max. 1 ounce is what you get if you don't do any work or testing, and just sort of whip something together randomly. Anything over 20ml is not even worth using in my opinion, because it's simply not a well designed system. 1 ounce is 30 ml, that's about if I remember right, a 25% efficiency in the setup, ie, absolutely terrible, about as bad as you can possible get. That's not unlike taking a drill and trying to whip up your own canister top. It may if you lucky work, but it will be so bad and inefficient that you'd never use it, yet for some reason, there's a tendency to do such comparisons anyway to justify (I'm guessing that's the reason) things like a jetboil purchase.

A decent stove, alcohol, with a simmer ring, can do basic lower temp cooking, but I would never suggest it's as easy to do or use as a canister stove. Fancy feast stoves are durable and simple, but they suffer from some pretty major drawbacks, one of which is the ground temperature sucking the heat out of the alcohol until the stove won't even boil water, something I discovered one colder day in winter testing one outside, that's when I stopped using them for anything but testing. You can make an easy base for fancy feasts because it is the stand, so the base has to be so solidly attached that it doesn't wobble.

It would be nice to see people begin to realize that a non designed can burning some fuel is not at all comparable to some industrial engineered stove like all canisters and white gas stoves are, particularly not the most expensive and engineered, and expensive, of them all, the jetboil. That's like comparing a home made gocart with a prius, it's a silly comparison, why people insist on making it is truly beyond me. If you like your jetboil,l which you had better like, lol, it's the biggest and most expensive thing you can use, be happy and like it, but don't try to make false comparisons to justify it, just enjoy it and note you have never used a real alcohol setup so there's nothing to say there. I've never used a jetboil, and never will, since it's not the way I want to backpack, so I have really nothing to say about it beyond that it seems very inflexible and clunky as something to carry with me backpacking, but that's just a preference.

If you like canisters just enjoy them, but there's this tendency to make up bad data or bad testing or whatever to further justify that subjective preference, that's what I am pointing out here in this thread, if you are doing empirical apples to apples testing, ie, fully designed and tested systems (such as jetboil/pot setup) against fully designed and tested systems (such as cone/starlight, or ion/custom fit screen), then the numbers don't add up. Repeating, if you are in such a hurry, why are you walking? I'm already where I want to be when I'm out there, so I don't find myself rushed, though I certainly like dropping the fiddle factor down, that's what made me pursue the question of alcohol stoves in the first place after my first raw tests with fancy feasts and other low tech solutions.

I see what you are saying about generalized comparisons, but try being less of a prick when you disagree.

I was comparing two discrete systems within two much broader categories. It's just an anecdote. That's kind of what forums are, a collection of anecdotes. I'm not purporting to have any highly controlled apples-to-apples data or definitive system comparisons. My preference for the FF stove is purely based on weight. I love the Jetboil (a gift), but it's just too much stove to justify when you're hiking 15-20 miles a day. I personally don't lose sleep over an 8 minute boil time or 25% fuel efficiency. I know there are literally HUNDREDS of alcohol stoves out there, and no doubt many (if not most) are more efficient than the FF stove. I like it just because it is simple, super light, readily available at any supermarket, and fail safe. If I come across a better one with comparable durability and ease of replication, at a decent price, I'd buy it. But I also haven't put quite the level of obsession you have into researching backpacking stoves.

July

07-18-2014, 20:06

The first stove that I ever made was a fancy feast cat can. This was in 2011. Since that time have hiked over 1000 AT Miles with the same original stove without a single failure, not one. The can is showing her wear, but still in form and fires correct pattern every time. Gear box has many stoves, but the simplicity/wt of this one has just been a pleasure to hike with, just one hikers opinion.

Wil

07-18-2014, 20:09

I know there are literally HUNDREDS of alcohol stoves out there, and no doubt many (if not most) are more efficient than the FF stove.I'll present a hypothetical to illustrate my feeling about this:

Let's say I'm offered two alternatives ONLY: #1 a Supercat, with a windscreen of my own design. #2 the latest-greatest Hope-certified, agreed upon by all experts to be the most efficient alcohol stove ever designed and built, of all time; but with a random/typical windscreen.

I take the Supercat every time. The differences between alcohol stove efficiencies are not nearly as substantial as the effects of the windscreen, and (to a lesser extent) the pot supports if the stove requires one.

Mags

07-18-2014, 20:25

To paraphrase William Shatner (https://screen.yahoo.com/star-trek-convention-000000768.html) "People, it is just a backpacking stove! Go out and hike! "

:)

rocketsocks

07-18-2014, 20:34

To paraphrase William Shatner (https://screen.yahoo.com/star-trek-convention-000000768.html) "People, it is just a backpacking stove! Go out and hike! "

:)
Oh, I didn't know the Capt. was a hiker, Cool. :D

Harald Hope

07-18-2014, 23:03

You're correct re windscreen design being a big deal. And the fancy feast type stoves are ok on wide pots, they don't really work on narrow pots that well, which is of course a big factor. Stoves that work well on narrow pots will just be more efficient on wide pots, like the ion or this CHS.

I personally don't like the priming of fancy feast/supercat/penny type stoves, with a stand and basically free standing stove under it, it's much easier, fill light put pot over.

To me all the alcohol stoves are winners in one way or the other as long as you stay aware of the potential negatives with any type, it's just so easy to fuel up, plastic bottles, etc. My goal is always up to 10 days unsupported, though I don't usually go that long anymore, age, etc, make it harder, but 7 days for sure.

I didn't say supercats (by the way, I'm glad you gave jim wood credit for that stove, since he developed it) didn't work, though, I said they aren't efficient, and they aren't. they are ok on wide pots, and certainly give decent performance once you adapt to the way you have to light them. It's just that you can do better if you want. If you don't want, then it's fine of course since you like it. In the sierras and increasingly dry west coast, I really wish however that people would not use those types of stoves, they are not stable with wide pots, stove on ground, pot on stove, they aren't as safe in non careful hands, and will cause fires at some point I fear due to the room for error they allow.. It's the non careful hands that cause the fires in most cases, not the experienced users who are mindful and aware, that's personally why I dno't want to recommend stoves like that.

Here's my first results of the CHS stove, I whipped one up and tested it a few times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fbHHQrh9m58&index=1&list=PL4BA305BB19EAB1C5

Given I've never seen this stove before, never seen the design, and never tried making it, I'd say my results are indicative of what most people could get. I'm using a 4" tall screen with about 1" space between stove top and pot bottom, that's 2 7/8" high stand, I just whipped one up out of coat hanger. Height over stove matters, my first try was about 1 1/3 inches over, and it didn't work very well, flames up the sides, always the sign of wasted fuel..

The screen is not optimized for this type of stove, it's for an ion, about 1/4" space between screen and pot all around, with air slots cut out along the bottom edge of the screen, the screen is held up by cut out nubs on the bottom edge, leaving spaces between for maximum air flow.

The results are decent, with 20 ml, 2 cups of 72F water boiled in 6:30, and kept boiling for 2 minutes, and went out at 8:45. With 15 ml it didn't quite boil, it did hit 208 briefly just as it was going out, at 6:30 or so, so it's a bit less efficient than the ion, which is no surprise, speed or high efficiency, pick one when it comes to alcohol. That's roughly what I would expect from a faster boiling stove, but this version is way easier to light and fill than the penny, which has comparable performance, so I would call the CHS another winner.because it's fast, easy to setup, easy to fill, does not require priming, uses a pot stand, and is about as efficient as you'd expect for that boil time. It strikes me as too tall though for single user cooking in the version I made (40mm or so, plus a base), so I might try making a shorter one and see how that works.

Wülfgang, I'm not sure it's obsession, interest maybe, curiosity, a rusty background in science I like to keep somewhat excercised, a desire to sort of refresh my chemistry knowledge, I was pretty much done with all that since I hit all the targets I wanted to hit with ion/screen. Also living on the west coast, fire danger is very real, and I realized that the penny stove I was using was just too dangerous to use anymore, plus being such a pain to light, and not being very efficient (my goal was say, 5 cups boiled a day, a touch over 1 fluid ounce per day, so say, 8 ounces for 6 days, ie, a 7 day trip. Whether that goal is reached depends on how much tea I want to have daily, heh. All I can tell the fancy feast fans is that it's such a joy to not have to prime, simply fill, light, put pot on, wait. I never liked that "hmm, is it vaporized enough to put the pot on yet? with the fancy feast stoves, though of course obviously over nights you get pretty good at judging it. the CHS also by the way meets this requirement, and it's not particularly hard to make, not easy, but not hard. Thanks for the tip on that one, I think it's a good one for two people setups, way better than penny and probably about as fast as fancy feast, so worth checking out.

Some guy burned down a big chunk of forest here in southern california some years back with an alcohol stove, and when I read the description of the guy, it was almost certainly someone who had just whipped up some stove then tipped it over or something like that, which of course led to a ban on all alcohol stoves in parts of the sierras, that's the reason for avoiding certain types, or at least avoiding recommending them.

That ban is being modified, but just one mistake by one person is all it takes now, that's why I use a stove base to keep temp down on ground under stove, as well as insulating stove from ground temp, an aluminum fuil type 'floor' under that base, a real screen, and a pot stand, and why those are all absolute requirements for any stove I bring into the drying forests, I don't want to be 'That guy'. Call it obsession, that's fine, heh, it's been worth it, alcohol stoves for me have been the single biggest jump in quality of my trips of any gear changes I've made I think, particularly non priming ones.

I'm glad I posted in this thread, I was actually wondering if there were new things worth checking out, and now I have a fast cooking stove too for when that matters. 6.5 minutes no priming, that's cool. Anyway, thanks for the opportunity to revisit the question, and to double check performance, I like to check that now and then to make sure nothing was missed.

Harald Hope

07-18-2014, 23:22

grr, double post, I can't find a way to delete or edit it, sorry.

Odd Man Out

07-19-2014, 00:24

BTW, some other cans that will work for the eCHS stove are the small V8 juice cans, small Starbucks cappuccino, and Ocean Spray Spakling Juice. Maybe you will like to drink those? The V8 juice is good for making meat loaf ;-)

I am using an Olicamp XTS pot. It is a bit heavier because it has a heat exchanger, but I have communicated with others using a plain old KMart Grease pot with similar results. The Olicamp is a 1 L anodized Al pot with a 1:1 height:diameter ratio, giving it a maximum volume to surface ratio. This cuts down on weight and helps it retain heat when cooking in the cozy.

My pot stand is a 3" tall cylinder of stainless steel hardware cloth. I have tipped over pots and lost my dinner when using a narrow sideburning stove that doubles as a pot stand. I optimized the height my making a stand that was obviously too tall with 1/2" hardware cloth and kept cutting off 1/2". Performance went up and then down as the pot stand got shorter, with 3" about right for my pot.

My wind shield is a cylinder of Al flashing. I fold tab on the ends to overlap so I just snap those together to set up. Pop them apart and put it in the pot for storage. I make it the same height at the interior of the pot so it fits perfectly. I think it goes about 1" above the bottom of the pot. I made it so there is about a 1/4" gap between the pot and the screen. On the bottom I punch holes with a 1/4" diameter paper punch. To optimize air flow, I tested the system with no windscreen. Then I tested it with minimal holes and got poor combustion. I punched more holes and got better results. When I was getting performance that was about the same as without a wind screen, then I figured I had enough vents and the stove was no longer starved for air.

As for the heat on the base of the stove, I have a small square of Al foil (double thick) as a heat reflecting base. The surface gets a little warm, but not at all hot. The eCHS stove works differently that other stoves in that it doesn't require the pool of alcohol in the bottom to boil in order to force fuel out the jets. The cold fuel is drawn up the sides by capillary action due to the close contact between the two walls. The small indentation around the perimeter of the inner piece (where you drill the holes) forms the hoop. This is where the fuel is vaporized by thermal feedback from the burning stove. Because only a small sample of fuel is vaporized at the top of the stove, it primes very quickly (about 10 seconds for mine). Also, because the fuel in the bottom doesn't have to vaporize, the bottom of the stove is cool. In the videos you will see him holding a burning stove in the palm of his hand. Eventually (as the stove burns out), I find the whole stove gets a bit too hot to hold, but you can hold it when it is first lit.

By making the opening in the top of the stove smaller, you will lengthen the priming time and lower the power (possibly increasing the efficiency), so you can adjust your build to suit your preferences.

Wil

07-19-2014, 01:17

Just a few points of clarification. The supercat stove is a Fancy Feast can with two rows of 3/16 or 1/4 inch holes around the edge. There are other stove designs that use this can, and they are called, variously, Fancy Feast stoves, Facee Feest stoves (Zelph's design and his copiers) and cat food can stoves. Some times these same terms are used in posts to describe the supercat, which makes discussion confusing at times.

The so-called simmer cat, which is what I use exclusively, is a variation of the supercat with only one row of holes, in my case 16 holes of 3/16 inch. I use a 5" wide pot; anything smaller loses efficiency and 6"+ would be a little better. I use a windscreen extending a little more than halfway up the side of the pan, very tight, less than 1/4 inch which, among other advantages, makes it very difficult to tip over the pot. When tired, hungry, maybe getting a little chilled, I am as clumsy as any creature on earth and I have bumped into the stove many times while reaching; it has jiggled but never gone over. Kick it (or just about any stove) and you may have a problem.

I really don't prime the supercat, as such. I light it (and I don't understand why some say this is difficult) and immediately hold the pot 2-3 inches above the flame, which is not yet jetting, for a few seconds. I then start slowly lowering the pot closer to the stove edge (which is the built-in pot support), eventually setting it down. This heats the stove, fuel and bottom of the pot so they kinda "mesh" and the blue flame shoots through the jets. The whole process takes maybe 7-8 seconds, a little longer if it's cold, and has become auto-pilot after all these years. Very little fuel is wasted during this priming.

Some time ago I started using a small piece of thin cardboard wrapped with a single layer of aluminum foil to set under the stove, to improve performance in colder weather. I found this further improved stability and provided some additional insurance as a fire/scorch break so I now use this all the time. Though a huge weight burden of nearly an ounce and a half, I feel this makes the stove very safe.

Wil

07-19-2014, 01:19

Can't edit my mis-type in the above: Zelph's stove is obviously the Fancee Feest, not the Facee Feest.

colorado_rob

07-19-2014, 09:30

If you like canisters just enjoy them, but there's this tendency to make up bad data or bad testing or whatever to further justify that subjective preference, that's what I am pointing out here in this thread, if you are doing empirical apples to apples testing, ie, fully designed and tested systems (such as jetboil/pot setup) against fully designed and tested systems (such as cone/starlight, or ion/custom fit screen), then the numbers don't add up. My numbers add up just fine, all in a spreadsheet with field testing and years of experience. I carefully weigh my fuel canisters after each trip noting the usage. I've tested an alcohol stove on two previous trips and basically gave up due to MY personal lack of patience and the minimal, or depending on the trip length, non-existent "weight savings".

This last trip consisted of exactly 6 3-cup boils in my jetboil Sol Ti, and I used 1.8 ounces of fuel, weighed to the nearest 1/10th of an ounce on a calibrated scale.

You talk about using either 15ml or 20ml of alcohol per a 2-cup boil, and in weight terms that is either .42 weight ounces or .57 weight ounces. My tests with a cat stove show right at 0.5 weight ounces, so in the same range. somewhere in this thread someone mentions that alcohol stoves "weigh next to nothing", not a very precise statement as everything weighs something, my cat stove and minimal windscreen and small alcohol bottle (0.75 ounces) all weighs 2.75 ounces. My 0.9 liter Ti pot weighs 4.5 ounces. Sure, there are UL pots that would save a couple ounces, and one of these days I'll get or make one.

Anyway, for a short one-person trip in strictly weight terms, boiling 18 cups of water, my alcohol setup including fuel would weigh 11.7 ounces. My "clunky" (????) Jetboil if taking a full canister boiling the same amount of water would weigh 14.0 ounces. I took a partial canister (I have bunches of them) that saved 1.2 ounces so I'm at 12.8 ounces total water heating weight for a full 3-day trip, which is 1.1 ounces heavier than the equivalent alcohol setup. I gladly pay that teeny weight penalty for the much great convenience and speed of the Jetboil, and if I happen to have the right canister handy (with exactly the right amount of fuel left in it, plus a couple grams of margin), even that is less.

So yes, for short trips with one person, an ounce or two can be saved using alcohol. Just hope it's not windy. If my wife had come on this trip (exactly twice the water boiling), the alcohol setup total weight would have been 16.2 ounces, the Jetboil setup total weight would have been 15.6 ounces, a weight savings.

Perhaps you're referring to the old-style Jetboil being "clunky". There is nothing "clunky" about the newest ones, and there is no fiddling, instant "assembly" and instant on. My Jetboil Sol Ti weighs exactly 8.9 ounces, including burner, pot and igniter, not "1 pound" like the older ones. I don't carry that silly and useless little cup nor do I carry or have ever needed the pot stabilizer (meaning I've never spilled a pot in hundreds of days of use).

Never ever understood how alcohol stove users think a Jetboil is at all difficult to use. The two times I used an alcohol setup there was zero additional ease of use, I don't care how many times you use it, you have to get it out, set it on a level rock, fill it, arrange wind screen, light it, set pot on top, wait 6-8 minutes. With a Jetboil, you open it, screw on canister, set on level ground, turn valve, push igniter, wait two minutes. What on EARTH is "clunky" about that????? The mind boggles at what some call "subjective justification" !

The Jetboil system including pot, burner unit and a canister all fits together in a <4" diameter, <6" long cylinder. "Clunky"?????? Not. don't even need a lighter (0.5 ounces) like with an Alcohol setup, though in case the Piezo igniter fails, you better have some sort of backup. I always carry a small fire-starting kit for emergencies that includes a couple dozen waterproof matches (and trioxane fire starters), and those matches serve as my Piezo backup, though I've never had to use them yet for the stove. The trioxane (solid alcohol, I think) fire starters also serve as a backup for stove fuel; 1/2 ounce of a trioxane "brick" placed under the jetboil pot heats 2 cups nicely. I used this once on the AT last year, worked great.

Yes Mags, the debate rages on, HYOH! Maybe it's regional, but the Alcohol users are understandably few and far between out here in Colorado, and I don't think it's just because of fire bans, etc.

colorado_rob

07-19-2014, 10:59

...if taking a full canister boiling the same amount of water would weigh 14.0 ounces. I took a partial canister (I have bunches of them) . Woops, sure wish I could edit, I meant to say as-carried this trip, total weight with partial canister was 14.0 ounces.

Odd Man Out

07-19-2014, 15:49

Another thing about alcohol stove effeiciency. When determining efficiency (that is the volume of fuel needed to boil a certain amount of water), this is usually measured in ideal circumstances. One downside of many alcohol systems is that people have to guess how much fuel they will need. If you use too little fuel, your stove burns out prematurely and you have to add more to get it to boil (and then probably end up using more than the minimum). If you use too much and burn off the excess, then you also burn more than the minimum. The only reliable way to actually use the minimum amount of fuel is to have a system that allows you to snuff out the stove when you are done and recover or store the excess fuel. The Starlyte (without pot stand) by Zelph is good for this. It is easy to blow out and then can be capped with the excess fuel is held in the wicking system. With my system, I cut 2" off the bottom of a 12 oz pop can. This can be dropped on top of an eCHS stove to snuff it out. Then I can suck the excess fuel out of the stove with one of these:

http://packafeather.com/fuelbottle.html

Without one of these excess fuel storage/recovery systems, you effective efficiency in the field will suffer.

zelph

07-19-2014, 17:56

Shugemery believes in alcohol stoves. He has them all but has a favorite goto:D

Can you juggle yours and roll it on the ground???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKAFAsPfC4s&list

Mags

07-20-2014, 18:42

Yes Mags, the debate rages on, HYOH! Maybe it's regional, but the Alcohol users are understandably few and far between out here in Colorado, and I don't think it's just because of fire bans, etc.

I think they are far and few between except for lightweight backpackers and distance hikers.

I'd be surprised if the general backpacking public (which is pretty small to begin with overall) and tends to do one or two trips a year anyway, even knows about alchie stoves. They go to at REI, get an Osprey Pack and matching pack cover, an REI branded free-standing tent, a water filter and some sort of canister stove.

The stuff is put away and then they go do a trail run, mtbike trip or what-have-you. Which was also probably bought at REI. :)

The Mrs and I just came back from a trip (first one together in two years. Hurray for her masters being done!) and this is, more or less, what I saw. :D

Mykneeshurt

07-20-2014, 21:33

I own a Jetboil, a Pocket Rocket, a stove whose name I have long forgotten that uses those smelly pellets, and at least two other stoves that use the screw on propane tanks. ( I know, OCD, but I am retired, and saved a decade for my thru hike). I tanked in 2010...but made it the entire white blazin freakin way last summer (2013). I ended up going "cold" in 2013 after less than a month. Not pushing it on anyone, honest. I just got into a Via Ice Coffee, something different most days for body fuel (sardines ended up, amazingly, being a go to, and I never seemed to tire of peanut butter on pita bread). I just never missed the hassle of cooking and cleanup. Absolutely NOT passing judgment on those who enjoyed cooking...and did occassionally covet what I smelled in camp. But, and just for me, enjoyed more the fast exit from camp rather than hot grub (nice) and clean up (ugh). Will acknowledge, I had saved enough to enjoy hostels and restaurants quite often...which I am sure made the cold food decision more "palatable". (Pun intended). Oh, I forgot. I loved the powdered Gatorade. It was like a cocktails used to be at home at 5:30 pm. Weird how your tastes change. Sawyer filtered cold Maine water and Gatorade, and I was in heaven! Thanks for letting me post so long. I expect no one to read it, but it brings back such happy memories.

88BlueGT

07-30-2014, 14:15

My first stove ever purchase was an Optimus Nova +. I used it twice before I quickly wonder why the heck I need this massive stove. Found the best (IMO, at the time) DIY pepsi-can stove instructions and never looked back. It's been over 4+ years and I still have and use the first one I ever made.

Alcohol stoves ARE efficient and they ARE lightweight. I took it one step further and just spend a few minutes testing pot stands at different height's, etc. to get maximum efficiency out of it. It works flawlessly and I've never had a problem with it.

duncanranger

07-30-2014, 15:01

Rock Creek in Chattanooga is for yuppies!! I can get **** online for cheaper and still cover shipping costs!!

fernbeetle

07-31-2014, 09:47

On my thru hike I made an alcohol stove with a used potted meat can. Works great. Kept the fuel in a plastic V-8 fruit bottle. They are thicker. Cut the bottom out of a beer can with notches to UAE as a fire starter. Works even in a heavy rain with less than one oz. of fuel. The stove fits inside the can bottom. Weight of stove and fire starter can is 0.4 oz. It works, it's reliable, it's easy, and the best price ever. You can buy denatured alcohol along the trail.
Mingo

Harald Hope

04-04-2019, 21:24

I can't resist updating this.

Current weight of my chs alcohol stove/screens/stand/2 oz bottle for fuel: 1.91 ounces. Add about .8 ounces per ounce of slx, depending, let's say about 1.5 ounces per day to have tea etc as well as 2 cooked meals. If you skipped the tea, it would come in pretty close to 1 oz per day real-world. I carry a bit more, because honestly, this is not weight that matters, and every day there's less of it, so really I don't care.

This is real-world, not ideal conditions. Consumption will be higher at altitude obviously, physics/chemistry being what it is and all, but so will anything else so that's roughly even.

The narrow pot I don't include since most stove setups would have pot too. The chs is just a really, really, good design, I've had zero interest in spending time on stove stuff after making mine, though I would like to do a better write-up of how to make one. I don't consider it an easy stove to make, it's tricky and picky, but only in production, and after that, it's just an aluminum can that's more solid than most since it has two layers basically. I might pick up one of those zelph self sealing stoves at some point if I find myself needing to have something very safe in high fire conditions, but otherwise my stove journey ended a couple of years ago, though I still like tweaking the materials I use, we all have hobbies, this is less bad than many.

Note that I could go lighter, and was, with the toaks ti wind screen cut and shaped to fit, which is super thin ti foil, with folded edges and cut to size for your pot, that's maybe 7, 8 grams lighter, I just picked up some 0.004" ti foil from china, that's about 2x (or more, hard to measure stuff that thin) thicker than the toaks foil, but about half the weight of aluminum flashing, which is also really good, cheap as heck, and sturdy (though this 0.004" stuff is nicely stiff too, just thinner), and I think I'm going to stick with that, plus the toaks outer lower screen to keep the breeze out of the main screen/stove system.

For anyone interested, this is the ti foil: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07JF17HNB/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 They call it 0.1 mm which is around 0.004" That is enough for roughly two stoves I think, depending on how wide your pot is. I don't know how thick thick the toaks stuff is, much thinner than 0.004" for sure, but to me, it's kind of flimsy though totally usable. That's about $11 for enough for one pot plus a base piece if you want to make one of those (helps efficiency, reflects heat back up from ground).

I find this setup almost comically easy to use (slot screens together, put stand together, put base/stove down, fill stove, light, put screens around it, light, squirt in a bit more fuel if you need more, light), there may be a few minutes difference in boil times between that and a natural gas powered stove, but honestly, I'm not very busy when I'm cooking, and the silence is pure bliss, which makes any actual argument impossible for me to actually engage in, since that level of aesthetic beauty is just not something I'm capable of debating, or wanting to.

Being able to gauge fairly precisely my fuel load for each trip is a nice bonus too. With the screen setup, wind isn't a big deal, though with all other alcohol stove types I used it was a huge deal for sure. If I were going longer than 2 ounces of fuel, I would add a 2 oz bottle, a 4 ounce, or an 8 ounce, depending. Once you get to over 8 ounces of fuel, the advantage in weight of an efficient system like this isn't even something you can debate anymore, at that point, just admit you want to use fossil fuel stoves and call it good, daily average carry weight can't be argued any longer, it's just preference at that point. Plus my entire setup fits nicely into my pot.

Since actually the individual weights make no difference, the real number is the pot/cozy/spoon/fuel bottle/screens/stand/stove/cup, all of it, that's 7 3/4 ounce. Add in .8 to 1.2 ounce per day of fuel, and that's the real number you carry. Add in weight of bigger fuel bottles, which is almost nothing, for longer trips. You can go lighter on some pieces, but it doesn't change the overall numbers much. Weigh the whole thing when you leave, and weight it all when you come back, then find the average per day you carried. That's the real weight, everything else is just a game. The math is difficult to really get around, so I don't try anymore, it is what it is.

The real drag is, the dryer our fossil fuel use makes our climates in some regions, the bigger the fires, droughts, etc, the more we'll be pushed to use fossil fuel stoves, which is ironic if nothing else.

It takes a bit more practice to use these alcohol things than flicking a lighter to light a natural gas stove (though not much, really not much, setup, squirt in fuel, light, put pot on), for sure, and I don't ever expect to see the stuff hit the mainstream (but I also don't expect tarptents, zpacks, enlightened equipment, etc, hit the mainstream, nor the big dig cat hole trowel or whatever other lovely things the cottage people can come up with), but I have a sneaking suspicion that at least one commercially available alcohol stove may be a chs design, but I'm not sure, as I said, I stopped the stove stuff once I found what I was looking for, but I've seen at least one that I thought might be that design.

But the silence.... words have a hard time conveying my feeling about that, made me lose interest in trying to argue it anymore, now I just appreciate every moment of it when I'm fortunate enough to be out there, and let the arguments etc merge back into the ether they came out of.

Here's hoping we have nature to enjoy in the coming years. Even if that might require making some sacrifices at some point...