View Full Version : Ion stove: no inner wall?
sierraDoug
09-29-2005, 22:39
I took a closer look at Sgt. Rock's instructions for making his Ion stove and am unclear. It looks like there is no inner wall like you find on a Pepsi stove. Is that right? You just have two parts and push them together? And if you use juice cans of the same size, how do you get one to fit inside the other?
http://www.ionstove.com/build.htm
Thanks for any and all enlightenment.
Nightwalker
09-29-2005, 22:46
I took a closer look at Sgt. Rock's instructions for making his Ion stove and am unclear. It looks like there is no inner wall like you find on a Pepsi stove. Is that right? You just have two parts and push them together? And if you use juice cans of the same size, how do you get one to fit inside the other?
http://www.ionstove.com/build.htm
Thanks for any and all enlightenment.
Yup. Pretty much an unpressurized, free burning stove. The size and placement of the holes, as well as the size of the can lead to the efficiency.
dixicritter
09-29-2005, 23:32
You just have two parts and push them together? And if you use juice cans of the same size, how do you get one to fit inside the other?
Lots and lots of patience... or cussing like SGT Rock does... LOL.
Seriously, the notches he shows on the bottom piece supposedly help you slide the two halves together. From watching him (haven't tried making this model myself) it did take a little more time getting the halves together, with sometimes messing up the top half. So be sure you have extra cans on hand just in case.
Hope that helps a little. I'm sure SGT Rock will have more to say when he gets done playing Army again. lol.
sierraDoug
09-30-2005, 00:22
Lots and lots of patience... or cussing like SGT Rock does... LOL.
Seriously, the notches he shows on the bottom piece supposedly help you slide the two halves together. From watching him (haven't tried making this model myself) it did take a little more time getting the halves together, with sometimes messing up the top half. So be sure you have extra cans on hand just in case.
Hope that helps a little. I'm sure SGT Rock will have more to say when he gets done playing Army again. lol.
Thanks for the tip. I guess that's why he now makes them out of those wedding favor tins... they fit together easier.
And thanks, franklooper, too. I was having trouble believing my eyes, especially after looking at his older version which did have an inner wall.
Guess I'll have to go buy some small juice and try it.
doug,
get three cans. use two for the 'halves' and use the bottom of the third one as a "form" to force the top half over before you fit them together.. it will slightly widen the one can and then they'll go together fine... yes, a little touchier than a pepsi can, but it works...
for a pepsi can 'form', i use the bottom of a campbell's soup can... it's just a hair wider than a soda can, and stretches it just right. i use a carpenter's vise to force the soda can and soup can together very slowly, and it keeps them lined up... then i put the stove in the vise too, and it keeps them lined up as well as you push them together... just have to be really careful not to crush the inner wall...
The wedding tins are really easy to work with. I played around last night with Red Bull cans (whatever you do, don't drink the contents) and they were orders of magnitude more difficult to deal with than the wedding tins. The tins you just cut and press on. The other advantage is that it's easy to pop that lid on and off at any time, so you can work on it easily after building and lighting the stove. If you find that your holes need to be bigger or something like that it's definitely easier to be able to just work with the thin top than an assembled stove. Also, if you screw one up, you won't be kicking yourself for wasting all of the pressing and fitting effort.
sierraDoug
09-30-2005, 11:28
The wedding tins are really easy to work with. I played around last night with Red Bull cans (whatever you do, don't drink the contents) and they were orders of magnitude more difficult to deal with than the wedding tins. The tins you just cut and press on. The other advantage is that it's easy to pop that lid on and off at any time, so you can work on it easily after building and lighting the stove. If you find that your holes need to be bigger or something like that it's definitely easier to be able to just work with the thin top than an assembled stove. Also, if you screw one up, you won't be kicking yourself for wasting all of the pressing and fitting effort.
Makes sense to me to use the tins. I'm just a cheap bastard. Why spend $ for a bag of tins when I only need a couple? I could just as well buy one of Sgt. Rock's finished stoves. I've got all winter to make various alcohol stoves though, so I'll try some with Red Bull (or similar) cans and see how it goes. I did try one Cobra stove and split the side trying to push them together. I don't have a vise, but that sounds smart.
Thanks for all the great ideas everyone.
It is expensive having to buy thirty of those things at a pop. But from buying them yesterday at lunch and working on a design until late last night, I bet I went through a dozen.
I brag to everyone that it's so cool to use a stove made out of a $0.33 tin that can operate for a week on an $0.85 cent bottle of fuel, but I bet I've spent $50 on materials, tools, Dremel attachments, etc in the past week.
Actually, I think my design is about final. I'm going to test thoroughly tonight. If all goes well, I'll probably make four or five extra as backups and to give to friends, and then I'll be done. I'm sure I'll have a bunch of wedding tins left over. I'd be happy to send them to you if you want them. Always looking to help out a fellow cheap bastard.
sierraDoug
09-30-2005, 21:29
Actually, I think my design is about final. I'm going to test thoroughly tonight. If all goes well, I'll probably make four or five extra as backups and to give to friends, and then I'll be done. I'm sure I'll have a bunch of wedding tins left over. I'd be happy to send them to you if you want them. Always looking to help out a fellow cheap bastard.
Hey, I'll take you up on that if you've got a couple or four left over. Let me know and we can work out the tins and shipping costs. Even better, let me know if you got the stove to work first. :D
Will do. I'm heading out now for a little midnight paddling/camping and will test my stove and hammock insulation in this cool weather.
Don't worry about shipping. It's not worth the hassle of a few bucks. If the stove works well, I'll include one of those, too; they only take like five minutes to make.
Nightwalker
10-01-2005, 00:07
If you don't mind the 1/4 oz. extra weight, Wal-Mart has a steel version of those at 3/1.00 on the gadget aisle. Just saw them tonight, and the top of them is metal, not plastic.
sierraDoug
10-01-2005, 02:18
Will do. I'm heading out now for a little midnight paddling/camping and will test my stove and hammock insulation in this cool weather.
Don't worry about shipping. It's not worth the hassle of a few bucks. If the stove works well, I'll include one of those, too; they only take like five minutes to make.
Thanks for the great offer. BTW, I grew up in Rockville, just up the road from you. Been in CA for thirty years though. Miss the great beaches back there, believe it or not. Santa Cruz water is too cold.
Big Dawg
10-01-2005, 07:33
It is expensive having to buy thirty of those things at a pop.
I bought a 12 pack of wedding favor tins from a party supply store for $4.99
sierraDoug
10-01-2005, 11:13
I bought a 12 pack of wedding favor tins from a party supply store for $4.99
Good idea.
Nightwalker
10-01-2005, 13:08
I bought a 12 pack of wedding favor tins from a party supply store for $4.99
Was it a chain or a local store?
Big Dawg
10-01-2005, 13:41
Was it a chain or a local store?
It seems like it's a chain,,, I can't even remember the name,,, I'll get back to ya.
Big Dawg
10-01-2005, 13:44
It's called Party City
Nightwalker
10-01-2005, 14:10
It's called Party City
Cool, thanks.
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-01-2005, 15:45
It's called Party City
I think we have one of those in little ol' Lawrence Kansas... may have to take a look.
Had my stove on the river last night and the testing was worthless. A problem using an old stand caused the burner to be nowhere near pot center. Got a good boil on a pint with between 1/2 and 1 ounce at exactly 50 degrees outside temperature.
After playing with it again at home today and with an Ion stove that I still can't get to work exactly right, I'm almost ready to call mine a bust. It works well enough (and looks smoking hot), but it doesn't seem like it's going to be Ion efficient. I can get 15 ml boils, but just barely and that's in my kitchen.
The Ion performance seems outstanding. I couldn't care less about how long it takes to boil, but getting reliable boils at the miniscule amount of fuel that Sgt Rock is using really impresses me. The only thing I don't love about it is the separate stand. I was trying to make one close to efficient that acted as its own stand.
I'll keep at it, but my focus is now on getting an Ion to work, then devising a fixed stand that's light and rugged.
sierraDoug, no problem. Let me know if you still need them. Where'd you live in Rockville? I hear there are four of us on here. I'm a Richard Montgomery boy myself. Where'd you go to high school?
patrick,
got bored today (we're still off work from Rita, yard is done, done helping friends, no where to go, 'cept walmart, etc) so i started messing with a new pot stand design for my homemade ion. used the v8 cans, with a cut down coffee can for a pot stand. got rid of that and used a catfood can. it's a little lower, maybe a half inch now, vs the 5/8'' it had been, and my performance is better than before... the other variable is my pot... was using an MSR titan kettle, where before i'd had a walmart greasepot... base of the pot is a little smaller now... i did find out that my local walmart does not carry those little wedding favor tins... oh well...
got a boil in about 9 minutes, i think (i wasn't keeping a good eye on the time, just piddling), but the impressive thing was that for the first time, i had flames shooting up the sides of the pot about 4-5" high! burned out at about 15 minutes or so. used a half oz of fuel.
i noticed that when i lifted the pot up, the flame came out the middle, like you mentioned yesterday, but when i got it down to about a half inch over the flame, the flames spread way out. so i learned something.
point is, don't give up... keep fiddling with it, especially stove/pot height...
sierraDoug
10-02-2005, 12:32
sierraDoug, no problem. Let me know if you still need them. Where'd you live in Rockville? I hear there are four of us on here. I'm a Richard Montgomery boy myself. Where'd you go to high school?
Went to Robert E. Peary High '73 to '75 and then moved to the Bay Area, CA with my family for my senior year. Been in CA ever since.
Sure, I'd love to score a couple wedding tins. Email me at
[email protected] and we can arrange the deal. I might save them till I get a juice can ion working well since this stove seems to be hard to get right. Thanks a lot for the offer.
SGT Rock
10-03-2005, 10:16
Hey y'all I'm back from playing Army. I have worked on an Ion version that the stand can stay locked around the stove if you want to carry it that way. It doesn't pack as small as the Ion you can break down, but it would meet those needs.
As to the lack of an inner wall. I tried making an Ion both ways. What I found was at this size and proximity to the pot, the wall isn't needed. Not to get to technical on this post, but the back pressure inside the burn area created by how close the pot sits to the stove does about the same thing once it gets going as putting an inner wall would.
Thanks for the reply. I'm curious to see the fixed stand. I have one in mind, but haven't made it yet.
I think the ti-pod is an ingenious stand, but I find myself camping on rocky beaches or the like with no flat surfaces around. From this thread and others, it seems clear that the pot height over the stove is critical and I don't want to have to worry about that in the field. I'd like a no-brainer stand that's going to set the pot at the same height every time.
Thanks again.
SGT Rock
10-03-2005, 10:46
If you order just a titanium stand because you want to make your own stove, you could always ask for that slightly different version and the price you still be $12. I figure that isn't a bad deal for a titanium stand :D
I don't know, I've already had to tuck my tail between my legs and abandon my own stove design. I was planning on clinging to my last scraps of pride by at least making my own stand.
$12 for ti sounds good, though. Do you have pictures?
patrick,
don't give up dude... you can make it work... get one of rock's if you have to have one that works now, but get back on the horse and make one yourself...
one of the reasons i use a cat food can for a stand is that it holds the stove at exactly the same distance every time... pretty light too...(less than my old coffee can stand). not sure yet what it weighs, but doesn't register on my spring scale... will get it to the post office eventually... (i miss that 'oh, look at the homeless person' look you get from people while you're there with your stuff. LOL)
Seeker,
Thanks for the encouragement. I will keep trying; I was just being a wiseass. I'll keep going with the Ion until I get it working for sure. It does seem like a great design. The cat food tin is an excellent idea for a stand. Does it have legs also, or just sit directly on the ground?
Check your PMs. I sent you a message this weekend.
Big Dawg
10-03-2005, 14:13
Welcome back, Rock! :welcome Whiteblaze ain't quite the same w/o ya!
SGT Rock
10-03-2005, 15:26
Welcome back, Rock! :welcome Whiteblaze ain't quite the same w/o ya!
Sure it is. I just read the Warren Doyle thread. Seems like there ought to be a thread just for free for alls like that.
Big Dawg
10-03-2005, 21:20
Sure it is.
Awwww, don't be modest, Rock. Your post count speaks for itself. :D
Seeker,
Thanks for the encouragement. I will keep trying; I was just being a wiseass. I'll keep going with the Ion until I get it working for sure. It does seem like a great design. The cat food tin is an excellent idea for a stand. Does it have legs also, or just sit directly on the ground?
Check your PMs. I sent you a message this weekend.
oh. ok. sarcasm is hard to read in an email...
got the pm, and am thinking on it... i'll let you know in a few days.
it just sits by itself... the bottom is the bottom, the rim is the top, and you cut three trapezoids out of the sides to make it lighter... you start each trapezoid by drilling a hole in the corner (1/4''), then connecting the dots with a razor knife... it eventually punches out. you then 'roll' the little flaps or edges left over between each cutout toward the inside, which stiffens the metal (like a C or U channel) and makes it sturdier... i don't think it's even an ounce.
i don't have a digital camera or i'd post a picture...
Seeker,
Cool, I know just what you mean. I was thinking of something similar initially, but wondered if it would be as stable on uneven ground. I think it probably falls under the category of "Sit at my desk and ponder for hours", but doesn't make an iota of difference when in the real world.
I'll try making one of those once I get the Ion up and running. Do you have anthing holding the stove in place? I might try riveting in a base to plug the stove into. I have that on my current Jim Wood Supercat stand and I like it (even though I'm still doing something wrong with the rivets -- flat on one side, spherical on the other). It also makes it easier for me to center the pot on the stove if the stove is fixed in the center of the stand.
Big Dawg
10-04-2005, 00:01
Seeker,
I have that on my current Jim Wood Supercat stand and I like it
Patrick, I had also considered making a JW Supercat stove. What's your experience w/ it? (sorry to steer off thread subject).
I liked it a lot. SUPER easy to make. I have a thread on here somewhere with pictures and (very long) descriptions.
It performs as well as my Pepsi stove (2 cups boiled on less than an ounce of fuel in under five minutes). That seems to be pretty much the norm for most stoves. What's nice about the SuperCat is that it has a healthy flame, so you're not going to put it out when you put the pot on.
I'm liking the looks of the Ion more than the SuperCat, though. From its specifications, it just seems much more efficient. I can sometimes get a half ounce boil on the SuperCat, but that's kitchen conditions and it's the absolute best I can do. It's looking like the Ion will do it extremely reliably.
Here's the thread I was talking about:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=10406
no problem... steer where you like... we're off subject anyway, i think...(we normally are... ) ion stove walls, i think...
Patrick,
no, nothing in it to 'fix' the stove's location... once you get down to fitting a 2" circle inside a 4" one, there's not much room for error... it sits in there just fine... i suppose if i get really bored one day, i could get out some jb weld and epoxy it into place... but if i boil something over, i want the option of taking it all the way apart to clean...
Good points. And I do like simple over complicated. Yet again I'm doing too much talking and not enough making.
I have so much cat food that I either need to use the cans or get a cat.
Nightwalker
10-04-2005, 01:02
As to the lack of an inner wall. I tried making an Ion both ways. What I found was at this size and proximity to the pot, the wall isn't needed. Not to get to technical on this post, but the back pressure inside the burn area created by how close the pot sits to the stove does about the same thing once it gets going as putting an inner wall would.
I had always wondered about that. I had made a few with a smaller center hole, and some with the full sized one, and they worked the same, as long as the pot was close. Now I know why. :datz
FrankenLooper
(Welcome back, ya bozo!)
Nightwalker
10-04-2005, 01:03
Sure it is. I just read the Warren Doyle thread. Seems like there ought to be a thread just for free for alls like that.
I've been hopin' that you'se guys were gonna move that to "thick skinned" for days now.
The HotDog
11-26-2005, 00:54
soda can stoves usally have a inner wall?
I have only made one with a inner wall and found it did not work as well as just two soda can bottoms stuck togather.
Wedding favor tins?
never heard of them what do they look like and are they really that much easier to put togather, If, so where do you buy'em at.
The HotDog
Big Dawg
11-26-2005, 08:42
Wedding favor tins?
never heard of them what do they look like and are they really that much easier to put togather, If, so where do you buy'em at.
The HotDog
Find them at "Party City" or any type of party planning store,, or anywhere that you find wedding party supplies. A wedding favor tin is small round tin w/ a lid that is clear. When making an Ion stove, you'd use the bottom of 2 tins. Light weight, easy to make, cheap. My Ion works great!!!