Floppy ankles?

[Groundsound1]

Hey whiteblaze!

less than one month until my departure to maine for my southbound thru hike :)

i went hiking along the foothills trail in northwestern SC for about 3 days and noticed, my ankles flopped to the sides... ALOT. it didnt hurt too bad, i just jumped back on my feet, but it just kept happening over and over.. i have the brooks cascadia 9 trail runners. i normally wear a size 10 in my vans for regular wear, but i got a size 11 and 1/2 for the brooks considering the swelling that will occur aswell as my heavy smartwool socks. i thought the flopping could be because theyre too big so i exchanged them for an 11 at my local store. the store said i could test out the 11's, and if they are too small i could come back and get my old 11 and 1/2's. is this issue prevalent in anyone else's hikes? i don't really want to get boots because i already spent 140 on these shoes, and i need something that will dry fast, you guys know how new england is... and the rest of the AT :rolleyes:

and do you think it could be the sizing issue? i haven't been able to go hiking in the new set of shoes yet.

thanks a bunch,

Johan the barbarian.

[Feral Bill]

See about foot beds. I use Superfeet green.

[Groundsound1]

Update: Danced in my room in the size 11's, they do feel a bit tight. Not sure if that would go away with them breaking in, but theres not much room for my foot to feel comfy in.

[Malto]

When you say flopping ankles do you mean rolling your ankles? Can't imagine another meaning. :confused:

[Groundsound1]

When you say flopping ankles do you mean rolling your ankles? Can't imagine another meaning. :confused:

yep, that is indeed what was happening.

[Ricky&Jack]

11.5 too big?
11.0 too tight?

Can you get a 11.0wide? That way they shouldn't feel tight, but won't be lose.

[Kolo]

For what it's worth, I used to roll my ankles all the time, especially the right one. I work behind a desk and with the exception of fishing & hunting trips, I really wasn't getting a whole lot of exercise. I think my ankles were simply weak. Once I started hiking on a fairly regular basis and started getting some more exercise, I think my ankles got stronger and the problem has basically gone away. I still use boots vice trail runners, but I notice my ankles are much better now than they were a year or two ago. I'm at a point now where I might try a trail runner to see if I can get away with less support.

[Wise Old Owl]

My brother has this - ended up with such a nasty sprain - had to get surgery after a PA ROCKS incident - watch your step.

[Rocket Jones]

Start strengthening your ankles. One simple way is to stand on one leg, go for a minute on each foot. You'll feel all the little muscles working to keep you balanced. When it gets easy, increase the time and start moving your other leg around to change your balance point. Google for other ankle strengthening exercises.

[Foresight]

You're a heel striker, aren't you? Nasty habit and it would behoove you to get up on the balls of your feet where you belong.

[Malto]

yep, that is indeed what was happening.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree on shoe size. The muscles in you ankle need to be strengthened.

[garlic08]

This happened a few times when I switched from boots to trail runners over a decade ago. I was committed to a long hike with trail runners, so I trained for many months and many miles on easy terrain with the trail runners, and I haven't rolled an ankle since.

[Pedaling Fool]

Yeap, sounds like an issue of ankle muscles that are not use to the unsteady surfaces of the AT. I don't think even running will help much with rolling ankles, because most people simply run on flat surfaces. And the idea that boots provide ankle support is a myth, at least in my experience, because I remember going thru a period of rolling my ankle and it happened a lot.

There is probably an exercise you could come up with to stengthen them, like running/walking in the very soft sand of a beach and I'm sure someone will mention some other exercises. However, walking the trail is the best way.

Sprained ankles are just a part of hiking. I walked 160 AT miles on a sprained ankle back in '99. Never had a sprain since.

[Ankle Bone]

Another Option -- I had the same issue - they'd even roll on flat secions. I switched my running shoe to a barefoot style and notice the difference when running. I then switched to Merrils barefoot hiking boot. No roll, no plantar facitis, no $300 orthotics. Just a suggestion

[Mrs Baggins]

Mine do that unless I wear high cut leather boots. If I wear low cut (below the ankle) shoes or sandals, over they go. I was a dancer in my younger years and did countless rises onto to my toes, plus at 4' 10" I have to go rise up on tip toe constantly to reach things, so my ankles really are quite strong...they just roll over. They don't get sprained or anything. I also have nearly flat feet so I do wear arch supports. I've been hiking and backpacking for 13 years now, on all sorts of terrain and up to 15 miles in a day. Doesn't seem to make any difference. They'll still roll over.

[Bobby]

Hey whiteblaze!

less than one month until my departure to maine for my southbound thru hike :)

i went hiking along the foothills trail in northwestern SC for about 3 days and noticed, my ankles flopped to the sides... ALOT. it didnt hurt too bad, i just jumped back on my feet, but it just kept happening over and over.. i have the brooks cascadia 9 trail runners. i normally wear a size 10 in my vans for regular wear, but i got a size 11 and 1/2 for the brooks considering the swelling that will occur aswell as my heavy smartwool socks. i thought the flopping could be because theyre too big so i exchanged them for an 11 at my local store. the store said i could test out the 11's, and if they are too small i could come back and get my old 11 and 1/2's. is this issue prevalent in anyone else's hikes? i don't really want to get boots because i already spent 140 on these shoes, and i need something that will dry fast, you guys know how new england is... and the rest of the AT :rolleyes:

and do you think it could be the sizing issue? i haven't been able to go hiking in the new set of shoes yet.

thanks a bunch,

Johan the barbarian.



For what it's worth - I've had the same problem with more so than any other trail runner. Don't get me wrong - it hasn't stopped me from wearing them - I'm on my 3rd pair. I believe it has to do with the style of the shoe and the fact that the heel sits pretty high relative to the top of the sneaker. I've found that adding insoles actually makes it worse because it tends to raise the height of the foot even more. Cascadias also tend to have a bit of a narrower heel than traditional running shoes, which makes it easier to roll your ankle.

For me, the pros out weighed the cons with these shoes and I still wear them. I've learned to run in them and i don't roll my ankle very often. When I do, it's a quick pop to the side and then i dance for a step.

Strengthening your feet will help. This can be done by walking barefoot or with very minimalist shoes on like merrells or five fingers or minumus (I run in these for any distance up to 13 miles, after that it's the Brooks)

[Ktaadn]

You're a heel striker, aren't you? Nasty habit and it would behoove you to get up on the balls of your feet where you belong.

I think this is part of the problem. Another issue might be that you are walking with your feet at an angle(like a duck). Your toes should always be pointing straight ahead when you walk or squat or anything else. If they aren't, you will have a flat arch, weak ankles, and put your knees at risk of injury.

[Just Bill]

Well said by all-
Go back to the 11 1/2.

Weak ankles and lack of walking on uneven terrain is the guilty party-
People talk about trail legs all the time, but just as important are trail toes, especially in tennis shoes.
You wear Vans- a much wider shoe overall, a bit dramatic, but you are like a lady walking in heels for the first time in the brooks, it takes some practice.

Fastest way to learn as you are leaving soon. Assuming you have some paved streets or sidewalks (safer for your feet)- start walking barefoot. Do it for 10-30 minutes, whatever is comfortable, per day, 3-7 days a week. Keep adding time and frequency- you can even do a few short walks a day rather than trying one big one. This will strengthen all your foot muscles, increase ground feel and awareness, and strengthen ankles to a degree. You don't have time to really strengthen your ankles- but you'll get them while you build your trail legs.

[Ankle Bone]

Well said by all-
Go back to the 11 1/2.

Weak ankles and lack of walking on uneven terrain is the guilty party-
People talk about trail legs all the time, but just as important are trail toes, especially in tennis shoes.
You wear Vans- a much wider shoe overall, a bit dramatic, but you are like a lady walking in heels for the first time in the brooks, it takes some practice.

Fastest way to learn as you are leaving soon. Assuming you have some paved streets or sidewalks (safer for your feet)- start walking barefoot. Do it for 10-30 minutes, whatever is comfortable, per day, 3-7 days a week. Keep adding time and frequency- you can even do a few short walks a day rather than trying one big one. This will strengthen all your foot muscles, increase ground feel and awareness, and strengthen ankles to a degree. You don't have time to really strengthen your ankles- but you'll get them while you build your trail legs.

Walking barefoot, hmmm. I agree. :)

[Dogwood]

You're used to Vans which are board shoes where the idea is to keep as much of your sole on the skateboard as possible. Vans have a low center of gravity, little arch, among other characteristics. The Brooks Cascadia 9's are a differently designed shoe having a higher center of gravity, more arch, different purpose, etc . You are now on trail. Different shoes. Different terrain. It's a different feel. No surprise you are rolling your ankles more based on these factors alone. Yeah, it's going to take some getting used to the new shoes and different type of walking on uneven terrain. Try walking on uneven rocky trail with your pack on in your Vans. You'll notice what I'm talking about. Get out of the Vans for the next month and into those Brooks Cascadias particularly since you're going SOBO. ME can be rocky with ups/downs.

[Slo-go'en]

It's easy to roll your ankle on uneven ground if you don't pay attention to your foot placement. Especially on New England trail you have to constantly look to where to put your feet - usually planning 3 steps ahead to keep momentum going. Always remember to stop if you want to look around other then to glance up once in a while to see what is immediately ahead. Otherwise you'll fall down! 90% of what people see on an AT hike is their feet :)

Ankle strength has a lot to do with it, but mostly it's a matter of learning how to walk on rocks and making sure your feet land square, not at an angle. Every so often I'll zone out hiking an easy stretch then land my foot on something the wrong way and start to roll.

If you boot is too wide you can roll your foot inside the boot when walking on slopping rock, but that's a different issue then rolling ankles.

[bangorme]

I fell into a river last year while fly fishing and sprained an ankle. When I finally recovered enough to try to get back into backpacking again, I found that ankle very vulnerable to rolling and re-injury. I use trekking poles now and really pay attention to foot placement. My point being that there is a difference between ankles that are weak due to a lack of exercise, and those weak due to injury. BTW, my doctor said that injured ankles are prone to re-injury for years after the injury.

[rocketsocks]

I fell into a river last year while fly fishing and sprained an ankle. When I finally recovered enough to try to get back into backpacking again, I found that ankle very vulnerable to rolling and re-injury. I use trekking poles now and really pay attention to foot placement. My point being that there is a difference between ankles that are weak due to a lack of exercise, and those weak due to injury. BTW, my doctor said that injured ankles are prone to re-injury for years after the injury.
This has been my experience as well...sprained both all the time as a kid, then a few times as an adult, been years though...knock wood. I think my walking regime has definitely helped with this, about ten years, and haven't sprained one since.

[punkin pie]

I've had this problem forever. Scares the crap out of me when it happens. I've always wore hiking boots thinking that would help, but after my thru hike I saw that the farther along I got, the less it occurred until it was basically non existent the last 1000 miles. I now think it is a ankle strength issue, although a pair of ankle high boots probably does help some from the start.

[Kerosene]

Yep, it's almost certainly an ankle strength issue. Carefully positioning your feet will help, but boy does that get tiresome after a few hours.

If you're serious about trying to address, here's what you can do every morning and evening:

50+ toe ups on the stairs (make sure your Achilles are warmed up)
Walk on your heels up and down a carpeted hallway for 100-200 feet, trying hard to pull your toes to your shins
Stand on an uneven surface in your bare feet on one leg, with the other leg forward, then to the back, then to the side (15-30 seconds each)
Do the same on the other leg
If you can do 30 seconds for each one-leg position, then try closing your eyes in a darkened room!!!

It will also help with proprioception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception), where your subconscious will have a better sense of where your feet are in 3D space and position themselves accordingly.

Yes, I know it's a lot of time and effort. It did work for me, eliminating the need for ankle braces while I played soccer. I still turn my ankles while walking (I underpronate even with orthotics), but I rarely turn all the way over anymore.

[rocketsocks]

That was an interesting article Kerosene, thanks.

[theoilman]

I wish I could get by with some type of lighter shoe, but with too many ankle twists and sprains to count over my 67 years, I don't know if my ankles will ever be stronger. I wear Vasque Breeze (mid height boots) with green superfeet with smartwool socks, total about 2 1/2 lbs. But with this combo I can even roll an ankle all the way with full weight on it, get up and take the next step and never have any soreness or swelling. For the ankle help this gives me, I learn to appreciate the weight. No, I am not a thru hiker, but a couple of week sections per year and walk 3 days a week nearly year round.

HYOH! This works for me.

[Odd Man Out]

I believe it was in Skurka's gear guide book where I read that an advantage of low top shoes over traditional hiking boots is that they allow ankle rotation. Your ankle is adapted to move from side to side like this. Assuming that your muscles are strong enough to take it (as described in previous posts), then your ankles prevent this side to side motion from being transfered to your knee, which as a hinge joint is less adapted to this kind of motion. Thus fixing your ankle in a traditional stiff high top hiking boot may prevent ankle sprains, but in doing so, it may prevent the needed strengthening of ankle muscles and also exacerbate knee problems (at least that was the argument as I understand it).

[Sarcasm the elf]

On a side note, "Floppy Ankles" would make a great trail name. :D

[Sarcasm the elf]

I believe it was in Skurka's gear guide book where I read that an advantage of low top shoes over traditional hiking boots is that they allow ankle rotation. Your ankle is adapted to move from side to side like this. Assuming that your muscles are strong enough to take it (as described in previous posts), then your ankles prevent this side to side motion from being transfered to your knee, which as a hinge joint is less adapted to this kind of motion. Thus fixing your ankle in a traditional stiff high top hiking boot may prevent ankle sprains, but in doing so, it may prevent the needed strengthening of ankle muscles and also exacerbate knee problems (at least that was the argument as I understand it).

Absolutely agree. I grew up being taught the "ankle support" philosophy for hiking boots. What I realized is that whenever I misstepped and my ankles couldn't role, the force was transferred directly to my knees. I switched to trail runners about five years ago and my knees are much better for it. In the winter I still wear proper boots or even my technical boots for some trips, and my knees come back battered after a couple of days of snowshoeing or wearing crampons in those things.

[Just Bill]

For any who care to use it- I was diagnosed with Ankle tendonitis last year and saw a physical therapist to fix it.
After a week of rest and PT, I continued the PT while eliminating the cause of the injury.
The main culprit was too many miles on flat paved trails during training (only trails of any length around here) and was quickly fixed simply by adding in one day a week at Swallow Cliff (local hilly crushed limestone trail) or roughly 20% of my weekly mileage27556.

[leaftye]

I'm sad that you're discovering this so late. Your ankles need to be strengthened. Walking on a trail works, so does walking on banked surfaces, air writing the alphabet with your feet, balancing, using bands, wobble boards...all kinds of things. Be careful about overdoing it.

Unfortunately I believe thru hiking is so much wear and tear that your ankles will get weaker instead of stronger during your hike. They don't develop and recover nearly as quickly as muscle tissue, so a thru hike can be a war of attrition with your ankles. That might be different if you already had strong ankles, but right now I bet your ankles will get lots of seemingly insignificant injuries in the first few days of your hike, and then boom, it won't be insignificant any more. Hopefully I'm wrong.

For better or worse, please come back and let us know how things turned out. A successful thru hike is ideal by far, but even a hike ending ankle injury can serve as a notice to aspiring thru hikers to start preparing much earlier.


Absolutely agree. I grew up being taught the "ankle support" philosophy for hiking boots. What I realized is that whenever I misstepped and my ankles couldn't role, the force was transferred directly to my knees. I switched to trail runners about five years ago and my knees are much better for it. In the winter I still wear proper boots or even my technical boots for some trips, and my knees come back battered after a couple of days of snowshoeing or wearing crampons in those things.

Supposed all the ankle support that football players use is resulting in high ankle injuries. I don't know what the difference is, but they say high ankle injuries take much longer to recover from.

I'm noticed the same thing with boots too.

[atraildreamer]

I think you are barking up the wrong tree on shoe size. The muscles in you ankle need to be strengthened.

That' how I started hiking! I had sprained my ankle years ago and found that walking on flat surfaces, after the ankle had apparently healed, caused me a lot of pain. I figured that walking over uneven ground (on a hike) would strengthen my leg muscles and ankles. I found a local conservation area and started hiking. I started with a 1-hour hike, then a 2-hour hike, gradually working up the length of the hike. It worked. The ankle(s) toughened up and I liked the hiking so well, that I haven't stopped since!

[Berserker]

I'm not sure if anyone mentioned this yet, but you might want to strengthen your ankles. I'm joking with the "not sure if anyone mentioned this yet" statement of course as it's been mentioned numerous times in this thread. This is likely your problem. I used to roll my ankles all the time, and the only thing that resolved it was strengthening my legs, ankles and feet by walking on uneven terrain. I did this using trail runners, and I normally hike in trail runners. Fast forward a few years, and now I regularly go out in the woods in Vibram Five Finger shoes (i.e. barefoot shoes) and rarely roll my ankles.

[SCRUB HIKER]

Unfortunately I believe thru hiking is so much wear and tear that your ankles will get weaker instead of stronger during your hike. They don't develop and recover nearly as quickly as muscle tissue, so a thru hike can be a war of attrition with your ankles. That might be different if you already had strong ankles, but right now I bet your ankles will get lots of seemingly insignificant injuries in the first few days of your hike, and then boom, it won't be insignificant any more. Hopefully I'm wrong.

I disagree. I started my AT hike with OP's exact problem, specifically with my right ankle. I had rolled it a few times playing soccer in the months before the hike, then I proceeded to roll it many times over the first two months of the AT. At the beginning it happened almost every day. It always hurt a little but I could walk it off after a few seconds, and I never did any long-term damage. After Virginia I can't remember rolling my ankles once, ever. My legs just got stronger.

Same pattern on the PCT, which is a much more foot-friendly trail than the AT. I rolled it a few times in the first few hundred miles (including one BIG time where I almost passed out and had to sit down for 15 minutes and was worried I'd seriously damaged something), then never again.

I don't think your ankles rolling easily is a cause for alarm. Quirks in your gait, or too much weight, or not using trekking poles when you should (this coming from a non-pole-user), not knowing your mileage limit--those are more likely to lead to injury, specifically overuse injury, over time. Floppy ankles will fix themselves with a little strength.

[leaftye]

You're also quite young. Hopefully OP has a youthful body as well.

[rocketsocks]

For any who care to use it- I was diagnosed with Ankle tendonitis last year and saw a physical therapist to fix it.
After a week of rest and PT, I continued the PT while eliminating the cause of the injury.
The main culprit was too many miles on flat paved trails during training (only trails of any length around here) and was quickly fixed simply by adding in one day a week at Swallow Cliff (local hilly crushed limestone trail) or roughly 20% of my weekly mileage27556.
Quite a few of those are exactly what I do as well, (I'm a pavment pounder) the only thing I started doing differently is I walk about 10 mins before starting them, I found that helped quite a bit, strangely my Doctor never mentioned this...warming up, Hiker Mom told me about it...it's workin' for me.

[q-tip]

I use trail runners and heavy duty ankle braces, my ankles are a mess from 25 years of soccer. I found the only boots that offer any real ankle support were Asolo leather boots, and after lots of experience, they just are too heavy and dont dry out well. They sure do look good when I go to the store.....

[English Stu]

Before running I do the walk warm up. At that point I do about 10 knee and ankle circles, both legs, clockwise and counter clockwise. On the trail I do the knee and ankle circles if I feel a twinge. I understand it helps lubricate the joints.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

My ankles do the same thing. Not all the time, but mainly my right ankle, and always when the bottom of my foot is turned outward. Hurts like hell, and I had to limp down to Carver's Gap from Roan High Knob Shelter using my poles like crutches. Those little fist-sized rocks are treacherous, especially when wet. I felt something pop a few minutes later when I attempted to stretch it out...

[Tuxedo]

this is the best tool to get to a balance and ankle strength needed to prevent a strain. Cando vestibular balance disc

these videos will be some of the uses
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bsY4Ns2JVPM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O4PlZlKLqJc

[TrippLite]

Yep, it's almost certainly an ankle strength issue. Carefully positioning your feet will help, but boy does that get tiresome after a few hours.

If you're serious about trying to address, here's what you can do every morning and evening:

50+ toe ups on the stairs (make sure your Achilles are warmed up)
Walk on your heels up and down a carpeted hallway for 100-200 feet, trying hard to pull your toes to your shins
Stand on an uneven surface in your bare feet on one leg, with the other leg forward, then to the back, then to the side (15-30 seconds each)
Do the same on the other leg
If you can do 30 seconds for each one-leg position, then try closing your eyes in a darkened room!!!

It will also help with proprioception (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proprioception), where your subconscious will have a better sense of where your feet are in 3D space and position themselves accordingly.

Yes, I know it's a lot of time and effort. It did work for me, eliminating the need for ankle braces while I played soccer. I still turn my ankles while walking (I underpronate even with orthotics), but I rarely turn all the way over anymore.


What he said ☝
Several years ago I tore 2 of the 3 tendons in my left ankle, slow healer. My foot specialist was the bomb, I learned during my visit he had previously been the sports medicine doctor for the Cleveland Indians. I entered his office utilizing crutches, after his staff shaved my leg and he taped my ankle, I walked out w/o the crutches much to my amazement. Try shaving your legs... just kidding
For rehab he recommended walking in the sand at the beach just as Pedaling Fool mentioned earlier but this may not work for you unless you live near the beach or have access to a volleyball sand pit. He also recommended resistance exercises using an exercise band

Sand related ankle strengthening exercises
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L3Z2nhKpmBQhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q0qBzbb7Bs
ankle strengthening exercises using a exercise resistance band
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0q0qBzbb7Bs
Single leg squat isolating the glutes (buttocks) and helping with balance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EchY7CSi4xw

[Damn Yankee]

there are a number of foot and ankle exercises that ballet dancers use. I recommend looking it up.

[TrippLite]

Watch this video....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUtAeo5t0so