in the name of science

[rocketsocks]

Back in April I got my son a water filter for his b-day, Sawyer mini. Unbeknownst to me he needed to try it out and skimmed some water off the pool cover out back (a questionable water source at best, again, back in April). He did not fully understand the directions about back washing and storage, and by all accounts did not do either...So the question becomes, Do I...

a) (and in the name of science) Cut this puppy open, and we all get to see what happens when you don't take steps to clean your Sawyer mini?...or

b) run some water through it, then a 24 hr. standing water/bleach like I normally do and just continue to use the filter?

Yall make the call...:)



I kinda am curious, and wouldn't mind seeing this things innerds. ;) a $20 dollar mistake in the name of Science, is in my book not a mistake. :)

[Sarcasm the elf]

I say cut it in half! But I only say that because I've been curious about it myself and if you did it first then it would save me $25

[Just Bill]

Not sure there would be much to see- http://sawyer.com/technology/water-filtration/
For all it's fancy tech- this is just a filter- no chemistry or other tricks- just mechanics. Some filters can't be cleaned (like a furnace filter) some can be (like a screen door).
If your basement floods, soaks furnace filter, and ickies grow- eventually they clog the surface and it's done.
If all your dandy-lions in the yard sprout one day and catch on your screen door as the cross breeze goes through the house- well you take it down, get your garden hose out and clean (backflush) the door.
One filter gets tossed, one filter get's back-washed. A katadyn Hiker filter is like a furnace filter, a sawyer like a screen door. (like a bunch of foam pool straws with tiny holes, or rolled up screen door technically)

Long story short-
If you can't backwash at all- the ickies may have grown too big and kilt it- cut it open and explore.
If you can still backwash- do so with plenty of clean water. Verify you can squeeze water through in the correct direction- basically that the case isn't full of ickies that you only temporarily dislodged. If it won't flow in the right direction- cut it open.
Once the bulk of the flow is restored, mix up a double strength batch of AquaMira treated water and use the syringe to fill- but not force out all the water. Cap both ends once saturated- let sit 24 hours.
Flush well with water- let sit in a sunny spot to air dry fully and store. You should be fine.

Like your screen door- other than actual damage to the screen (by freezing in the case of the sawyer) it will always work if it flows- the pore size is the pore size as long as it's intact- it will just slow down the flow.
Like your screen door- backflushing blows the stuff off the pores, but since the filter is in a case, may not force them all out and they may simply go right back when the flow is the correct way.
Like your furnace filter- if a colony of ickies has taken hold during wet storage- water pressure may not pop them loose, and/or there may be too many growing to force them out.
The Aqua-Mira will kill a small colony (bleach seems riskier) but it won't kill an outright infestation.

An aqua mira flush, followed by sunny (or at least warm) period to air dry is the safest way to store your filter between trips.

[perdidochas]

JustBill's advise seems sound. If it backwashes pretty easily, just clean it. I'd follow that up with the cleaning directions in the box.

[TNhiker]

did ya buy it at walmart?

if so, just return it..............

[rocketsocks]

I say cut it in half! But I only say that because I've been curious about it myself and if you did it first then it would save me $25Oddly this makes perfect sense to me, and I get it. :D


Not sure there would be much to see- http://sawyer.com/technology/water-filtration/
For all it's fancy tech- this is just a filter- no chemistry or other tricks- just mechanics. Some filters can't be cleaned (like a furnace filter) some can be (like a screen door).
If your basement floods, soaks furnace filter, and ickies grow- eventually they clog the surface and it's done.
If all your dandy-lions in the yard sprout one day and catch on your screen door as the cross breeze goes through the house- well you take it down, get your garden hose out and clean (backflush) the door.
One filter gets tossed, one filter get's back-washed. A katadyn Hiker filter is like a furnace filter, a sawyer like a screen door. (like a bunch of foam pool straws with tiny holes, or rolled up screen door technically)

Long story short-
If you can't backwash at all- the ickies may have grown too big and kilt it- cut it open and explore.
If you can still backwash- do so with plenty of clean water. Verify you can squeeze water through in the correct direction- basically that the case isn't full of ickies that you only temporarily dislodged. If it won't flow in the right direction- cut it open.
Once the bulk of the flow is restored, mix up a double strength batch of AquaMira treated water and use the syringe to fill- but not force out all the water. Cap both ends once saturated- let sit 24 hours.
Flush well with water- let sit in a sunny spot to air dry fully and store. You should be fine.

Like your screen door- other than actual damage to the screen (by freezing in the case of the sawyer) it will always work if it flows- the pore size is the pore size as long as it's intact- it will just slow down the flow.
Like your screen door- backflushing blows the stuff off the pores, but since the filter is in a case, may not force them all out and they may simply go right back when the flow is the correct way.
Like your furnace filter- if a colony of ickies has taken hold during wet storage- water pressure may not pop them loose, and/or there may be too many growing to force them out.
The Aqua-Mira will kill a small colony (bleach seems riskier) but it won't kill an outright infestation.

An aqua mira flush, followed by sunny (or at least warm) period to air dry is the safest way to store your filter between trips.Oddly this makes perfect sense to me, and I get it.


JustBill's advise seems sound. If it backwashes pretty easily, just clean it. I'd follow that up with the cleaning directions in the box. This makes perfect sense to me, and I get it. Agree, and will start here. I hope it dosen't come clean, I really wanted to see the innerds...

thinks to self [please don't work, please don't work, please don't work]


did ya buy it at walmart?

if so, just return it..............
I did buy it at Walmart...but I just can't do that. for ifin I did, i'd be my luck/karma that every time I was on the trail something bad water related would happen, and I could just never be sure that it wasn't from that fateful day, and that would piss me off.:)

[rocketsocks]

Well I think thems that wanted to chime in, have...So we'll go with Just Bill's idea, I think it's a sound Sciencetiic approach, with an analytical outcome. But in all honesty, we just won't know fer sure...only time will tell on the toilet if all went/goes well....
Like all good science, pseudo as this may be approach...we need a hypothesis before continuing.

Hypothesis: I think the filter will backwash fine with not much effort experienced (though we could test another theory and complaint of these filters and squish the hell outta the bag, and see if it develops a breach like many have reported over the years) maybe a little smell, and debree, and since thinkin don't cost nothin , I can think it, and I do.

thanks all.

[Odd Man Out]

...Flush well with water- let sit in a sunny spot to air dry fully and store...

I might suggest doing a final flush with distilled water. I recall reading that some people have had trouble with their filters clogging after drying. I presume the problem would be mineral deposits left behind when hard water evaporates. In contrast to growing critters, backflushing and bleach/AM probably won't help. Acids would dissolve minerals that clog a filter, but then you would be in uncharted waters, I fear. Of course, that's science too!

[rocketsocks]

I might suggest doing a final flush with distilled water. I recall reading that some people have had trouble with their filters clogging after drying. I presume the problem would be mineral deposits left behind when hard water evaporates. In contrast to growing critters, backflushing and bleach/AM probably won't help. Acids would dissolve minerals that clog a filter, but then you would be in uncharted waters, I fear. Of course, that's science too!Good idea!
27571We have the technology...

[Old Hiker]

Good idea!
27571We have the technology...

Distilled WATER, not................ never mind. Ya'll gonna pass that jug?

[rocketsocks]

OK, back flushing has begun, and no smells or debre' were observed (didn't have the sac to taste), will go with JB's rec'd and use Aqua Mira, Chlorine dioxide...instead of Sodium Hypoclorite...bleach, and will let stand 24 hours, then were gonna try and Pop that bag.

[rocketsocks]

Distilled WATER, not................ never mind. Ya'll gonna pass that jug?
hehehe, sure I would! :D

[Just Bill]

Ya know....
Odd Man makes an interesting point regarding the mineral deposits. But without knowing the chemistry of the filter- even bleach seems risky, let alone something more volatile.
On the other hand- Socks makes a jest filled but perhaps not so strange suggestion in the distilled spirits.

I used to own an Anti-freeze recycling company-which is fancy talk for I treated water (more or less) and added a little chemistry back in to make antifreeze. The mechanics (filtration) I was good at, the chemistry, not so much- so forgive the lay-speak.

So OMO or other chemists- would a distilled spirit be enough with an overnight soak to dislodge the solids- as I would envision the mineral deposits are at the filtration levels we are speaking of? I messed a bit with chemical flocculation and other methods of removing entrained oils and minerals, while the Alcohol would not be the same chemistry, it does seem it may be enough of a medium to temporarily re suspend/dislodge the minerals so they could be removed. Is overnight a good residence time, would aggitation in some form help- or is alcohol too chemically/ph inert to interact with the mostly alkali deposits? Would a diluted white vinegar solution work? Or perhaps Calgon (the hardwater laundry additive)?

A slow flush with distilled water would prevent redeposit via alcohol evaporation, and I would imagine the alchohol is also, chemically speaking, neutral enough to avoid damage to whatever the filter material is made of.

[rocketsocks]

Ya know....
Odd Man makes an interesting point regarding the mineral deposits. But without knowing the chemistry of the filter- even bleach seems risky, let alone something more volatile.
On the other hand- Socks makes a jest filled but perhaps not so strange suggestion in the distilled spirits.

I used to own an Anti-freeze recycling company-which is fancy talk for I treated water (more or less) and added a little chemistry back in to make antifreeze. The mechanics (filtration) I was good at, the chemistry, not so much- so forgive the lay-speak.

So OMO or other chemists- would a distilled spirit be enough with an overnight soak to dislodge the solids- as I would envision the mineral deposits are at the filtration levels we are speaking of? I messed a bit with chemical flocculation and other methods of removing entrained oils and minerals, while the Alcohol would not be the same chemistry, it does seem it may be enough of a medium to temporarily re suspend/dislodge the minerals so they could be removed. Is overnight a good residence time, would aggitation in some form help- or is alcohol too chemically/ph inert to interact with the mostly alkali deposits? Would a diluted white vinegar solution work? Or perhaps Calgon (the hardwater laundry additive)?

A slow flush with distilled water would prevent redeposit via alcohol evaporation, and I would imagine the alchohol is also, chemically speaking, neutral enough to avoid damage to whatever the filter material is made of.
Well, I gotta defer to our Science guys, OMO, AK, I think Feral Bill, any other chemists out there I forgot. It's been almost 24 hours since I used a 7&7 Aqua Mira drops per about a half qt. Do we still get to blow the bag up? perhaps the alcohol will effervesce the carbonates and produce a mild explosion 27579

[Tuckahoe]

Well, on Monday there I was filtering water before starting the asent to Manassas Gap shelter and dropped my Sawyer filter and shattered the filter housing. When I finally disposed of it in a trash can I wondered what the filter looked like and finished breaking it open.

I was a suprised as the filter seemed to have this waxy glue stick kind of texture and it was hard to tell whether it was porous or not and much less so what I imagined a filter would be.

[rocketsocks]

For giggles I found this online...one interesting note is that the water used for the test came out of the "Yellow Breeches Creek" which I use to Fly Fish many moons ago, and runs through Boiling Springs, PA.

http://sawyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/Sawyer-Mini-Testing-Report.pdf

[rocketsocks]

Well, on Monday there I was filtering water before starting the asent to Manassas Gap shelter and dropped my Sawyer filter and shattered the filter housing. When I finally disposed of it in a trash can I wondered what the filter looked like and finished breaking it open.

I was a suprised as the filter seemed to have this waxy glue stick kind of texture and it was hard to tell whether it was porous or not and much less so what I imagined a filter would be.I'd say that entitles you to the saying of a saying.

..."I've been to the mountain, I've drank from the well" :D


you lucky Dog :jumpsorry bout the filter though, glad you had a good hike though Tuckahoe.

[rocketsocks]

What I was looking for when I found the report was...what is the material of the filter made out of...the housing and end pieces...I'm thinking Nylon housing, or some kinda polyethylene??? and the ends maybe CPVC??? but I'm just guessin'...and thoughts on this.


reason being, if I knew what kinda material it was, I could attempt to re-join with other than just a chalked mechanical joint (food grade silicone). It is likely radio welded, but it could be heat welded, or screwd and glued, though I don't see starter threads showing.

[Just Bill]

Plastics are not my bag- and as for the fittin- that's still your department, retired or not.

Filter material itself- closely guarded secret- but to answer Tuck- to the best of my knowledge it is still a plain old filter, albeit with a vary ingenious method of fitting such a massive filter surface into such a small package.
Sawyer does claim it is a membrane technology, but my experience is limited to Reverse Osmosis Units, nothing this tiny. The results though are more in line with RO performance levels. Your glue stick finding though may suggest that the filter material may be a non-traditional manufacturing process or 3-D printed type material to produce so fine and small a filter. That said- I am clearly out of my depth and talking out my skirt.

What I do know- this filter was originally developed for medical applications and likely had serious capitol behind it's development- as such I would not be shocked to find it is something new.
Which now greatly increases my desire to have Socks take an axe to it.

The bag's suck- fill one with alchy and blow it up to keep you busy while we wait for the chemists to respond.

[rocketsocks]

Plastics are not my bag- and as for the fittin- that's still your department, retired or not.

Filter material itself- closely guarded secret- but to answer Tuck- to the best of my knowledge it is still a plain old filter, albeit with a vary ingenious method of fitting such a massive filter surface into such a small package.
Sawyer does claim it is a membrane technology, but my experience is limited to Reverse Osmosis Units, nothing this tiny. The results though are more in line with RO performance levels. Your glue stick finding though may suggest that the filter material may be a non-traditional manufacturing process or 3-D printed type material to produce so fine and small a filter. That said- I am clearly out of my depth and talking out my skirt.

What I do know- this filter was originally developed for medical applications and likely had serious capitol behind it's development- as such I would not be shocked to find it is something new.
Which now greatly increases my desire to have Socks take an axe to it.

The bag's suck- fill one with alchy and blow it up to keep you busy while we wait for the chemists to respond.I'll likly put some acetylene in it...because I can 27582 but i first gotta try and ring it's neck, just heard so many stories about it breaking. I know they since corrected the bag issues most were having with some updated stock...but I still gotta try. If I had the gauges here we could do a hydrostatic test...and really do some quantitative/qualitative Science...psedo o' coarse.

[Just Bill]

I'd be most interested in the effects of stepping/sitting on the bag. Something I do with Platy bladders. When I go with the sawyer filter I pair it with these bags for that reason, plus the 3l bladder and/or 4L tank makes a swell pillow.
As you say, improvements have been made, perhaps the reputation is no longer deserved.

[rocketsocks]

I'd be most interested in the effects of stepping/sitting on the bag. Something I do with Platy bladders. When I go with the sawyer filter I pair it with these bags for that reason, plus the 3l bladder and/or 4L tank makes a swell pillow.
As you say, improvements have been made, perhaps the reputation is no longer deserved.Sit test works for me, then we ring, then we step on, then we blow the damn thing up.


...I guess we should throw a "Squeeze" in there somewhere, so's not to be discredited.

[CalebJ]

Just out of curiosity, of you guys that have some experience using the Sawyer Mini, is everyone satisfied with the filtration speed? That was my big hangup with it after my week on the BMT. Nothing wrong with the design other than that. I just walked away with the feeling that I could use Aqumira and waste a lot less time hanging out by the creek filling and squeezing out of the bladder to get a couple of bottles filled up.

[Just Bill]

I have only a few weeks of actual use with the Mini- mainly day trips to be honest. It was a cheap enough pickup to try for a speed kit. For doing a quick liter, or more often dipping a bottle and moving on- it works well.
I am very happy with the Sawyer 3-1 full size filter. I found the flow good and this will remain my go to choice for most trips. When it's time to crank a few liters I found it works great in gravity mode, often I will fill up a 3L or 4L tank and set up to do it's thing while I handle other chores. In that regard it is the best filter I have seen. When on the go- it works great as an inline filter- but I know everyone isn't into using a bladder and hose. I have found the mini a fair bit of work when used inline, screwed to a bottle top, not to bad- but there are some air exchange issues with this- I found unscrewing the filter to relieve the vacuum helped.

So to answer your question- I don't think it's an either/or- just a question of trip type and use. With the right parts and pieces and little expense I found the mini easy to add to my existing set-up so they are easily interchangeable.

Socks- I think it's the wringing that really kills it.

[Another Kevin]

Since Sawyer isn't forthcoming about the filter material, I'm not going to venture a guess about what solvents it might be compatible with, sorry.

The stuff for testing filter efficacy is pretty expensive (most labs use fluorescently labeled microspheres of various sizes, and usually a Coulter counter or some such), so I don't have anything to recommend for a field test for whether an element still works.

I was impressed with the Mini when I saw the Elf using one in Harriman. I mostly use Aqua Mira myself, because I've pretty much given up on the weight of my MSR MiniWorks (and I like the fact that there's a chemical residual guarding me against a certain amount of cross contamination). The "instant gratification" of a filter and the elimination of floaties might sway me toward the Mini in warmer weather. (Note to self - go out and get one to try it out.)

[rocketsocks]

ok, so this is quite anti climatic, but things got busy around here, and I let this thread go...the filter has performed fine, with no taste or odors issue, so I won't be taken a hammer to it, and it should do fine on the trail, thanks for all the fine posts.

Ultimately I used Aqua Mira and dosed the bag and filter for two 24 hour periods, and flushed it well several times, then put it up the dry....again seems ok.

[rocketsocks]

I really did want to smash the heck outta that thing...maybe it'll clog one day. ;) :D