NO DEET thru.. shelter concerns, clothing questions.

[Groundsound1]

Hello whiteblaze family, i hope you are all having a day filled with love and adventure. :)

I leave for my SOBO thru hike in 2 weeks, and i have everything i will need (finally!) I don't want to use deet, i will be bringing some just incase, but my protection against ticks however will be long pants, long shirt, soaked in permethrin. (as well as socks and shoes sprayed)

So, do you guys think this will be adequate protection against ticks? I am not spraying my base layers, such as my patagonia cap 4 hoodie and Patagonia cap 3 long johns, nor my sleepwear, cotton knit shorts and cotton shirt with synthetic socks. Do you think i should spray any of my base layers or my sleepwear? I will have a nylon shortsleeve shirt i may hike in every now and then, but that will be soaked in permethrin and i could just use picardin on my arms and check for ticks.

I'm as well going to be doing body checks every night, after i get in my tent while i'm changing into my night wear. (will also check clothes)

other things i will be spraying with permethrin are the netting of my tent (tarptent notch) and outside of my sleeping bag (marmot trestles 30)

any other advice on keeping off ticks? I'm not going to be using shelters i think, mostly because it seems that that would be an ideal place for a tick to crawl right onto you and get to you while you're sleeping.

taking measures to not get lyme disease but also not risking putting the highly carcinogenic DEET onto (Into) my body.

Thanks you guys, can't wait to start this incredibly journey.

[Slo-go'en]

You don't have to worry much about ticks in the woods of New England. By the time you do get into problem areas in the mid-atlantic states, they will be well past their peak, which is in the spring. Of course, that doesn't mean you shouldn't take precautions, you just don't have to be OCD about it.

I only once found ticks in a shelter, which was in PA during the spring. They might have come in with me or with someone earlier in the day. Since ticks are usually found in tall grass or in the leaf litter on the ground (where they go to stay warm), sleeping on the ground or in a grassy field is probably a much more likely place to pick up ticks then in a shelter.

[Dogwood]

Overall what you are doing sounds very good. If you are that concerned you might also apply some repellant to a bandana(Permrethrin) or Lemon Eucalyptus or Botanicals to your neck, a dab each behind the ears, and the hairline but keeping it away from where it could get in your eyes. Where have you picked up the idea that DEET is "highly carcinogenic?" Can you substantiate that?

[chiefiepoo]

Heard elsewhere but worth passing along; for solo hikers might find it inappropriate to ask a stranger to check for ticks in places that are unseeable without extreme contortions, use the c phone camera or your point and shoot for a close up exam. Don't forget to delete when done.

[Snowleopard]

I wouldn't spray my sleeping bag with permethrin unless I was sleeping on the ground. Even then, a ground cloth or bivy treated would be good enough. It's probably only worth treating the bottom part of the tent's netting and doors.

Deer ticks can be active year round as far north as Connecticut. They've been observed active in leaf litter in midwinter in CT. You're probably much less likely to pick up deer ticks midwinter unless you're rolling in leaf litter. You'll get most ticks walking through grass or brush, mostly in three season hiking. The range of Lyme disease is spreading, so a few years ago it was very rare in northern New England, now it's not rare. It is still more common from Mass south through the midatlantic states.

I almost never use DEET (or other repellents, except permethrin) because I'm afraid that it will trigger my asthma. It's not particularly carcinogenic. Permethrin helps with mosquitoes and black flies, but when they're bad you'll need a headnet (headnet won't help much with ticks unless you're crawling through brush). You might consider tucking your pants into your socks, or wearing permethrin treated gaiters so that ticks have a long way to crawl to reach skin.

[Groundsound1]

Overall what you are doing sounds very good. If you are that concerned you might also apply some repellant to a bandana(Permrethrin) or Lemon Eucalyptus or Botanicals to your neck, a dab each behind the ears, and the hairline but keeping it away from where it could get in your eyes. Where have you picked up the idea that DEET is "highly carcinogenic?" Can you substantiate that?

I'll definitely make my own batch of repellent with lemon eucalyptus, thank you :)

And i heard somewhere on whiteblaze that it was carcinogenic, but after doing some research, according to epa.gov, "DEET has been classified as a Group D carcinogen (not classifiableas a human carcinogen.)"

However, Deet's Class 3 toxicity (slightly toxic) has been shown to cause neurological deficits in rats. also from the site recyclebank . com "One of the most widely used ingredients in store-bought conventional bug sprays for personal use is N,N-Diethyl-m-toluamide, or DEET, as it’s commonly known. DEET, which is designed to repel, rather than kill, insects. DEET is used by an estimated one-third of the US population each year. Although DEET is approved by the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) (http://www.epa.gov/pesticides/factsheets/chemicals/deet.htm), it is a known eye irritant and can cause rashes, soreness, or blistering when applied to the skin. Additionally, DEET has been linked to neurological problems; according to the EPA, at least 18 different cases of children suffering adverse neurological effects, as well as the deaths of two adults, have been associated with DEET. Researchers at Duke University Medical Center have found that DEET causes diffuse brain cell death and behavioral changes in rats.
DEET has been shown to have a negative impact on wildlife and water sources in production and during use. DEET is toxic to birds and aquatic life. DEET has been found in approximately 75 percent of U.S. water sources, including the Mississippi River."

[Groundsound1]

Heard elsewhere but worth passing along; for solo hikers might find it inappropriate to ask a stranger to check for ticks in places that are unseeable without extreme contortions, use the c phone camera or your point and shoot for a close up exam. Don't forget to delete when done. hahaha!


I wouldn't spray my sleeping bag with permethrin unless I was sleeping on the ground. Even then, a ground cloth or bivy treated would be good enough. It's probably only worth treating the bottom part of the tent's netting and doors.

Deer ticks can be active year round as far north as Connecticut. They've been observed active in leaf litter in midwinter in CT. You're probably much less likely to pick up deer ticks midwinter unless you're rolling in leaf litter. You'll get most ticks walking through grass or brush, mostly in three season hiking. The range of Lyme disease is spreading, so a few years ago it was very rare in northern New England, now it's not rare. It is still more common from Mass south through the midatlantic states.

I almost never use DEET (or other repellents, except permethrin) because I'm afraid that it will trigger my asthma. It's not particularly carcinogenic. Permethrin helps with mosquitoes and black flies, but when they're bad you'll need a headnet (headnet won't help much with ticks unless you're crawling through brush). You might consider tucking your pants into your socks, or wearing permethrin treated gaiters so that ticks have a long way to crawl to reach skin.

Thank you for the advice :)

[bangorme]

DEET been around since 1946 and been in widespread use. Not to say it's absolutely safe, but about a million times safer than being bit by a mosquito or a tick. Just out of curiosity, has your asthma been effected by DEET? If so, I'm suspecting you must be allergic to it. Don't EVER put it on a dog, btw.

[Another Kevin]

Heard elsewhere but worth passing along; for solo hikers might find it inappropriate to ask a stranger to check for ticks in places that are unseeable without extreme contortions, use the c phone camera or your point and shoot for a close up exam. Don't forget to delete when done.

I can check THOSE places with the little mirror that I carry, thank you very much! But I do appreciate if a hiking partner can check the hairline at the back of my neck. I can't manage to contort to see that with just a mirror. I don't think that's too embarrassing to contemplate.


Also... if you're sensitive to DEET or worry about it, look for a repellent that uses picaridin instead. It doesn't have nearly the same chronic toxicity in animal studies.

[imscotty]

It is a mistake to think that Lyme disease stops at Connecticut, it is well established in all of New England. My wife, kids and dog have had it at one time or another here in Massachusetts.

[Slo-go'en]

It is a mistake to think that Lyme disease stops at Connecticut, it is well established in all of New England. My wife, kids and dog have had it at one time or another here in Massachusetts.

It depends a lot on where you are. It seems to be more common along the coast and in suburban areas.

[TrippLite]

Plus 1 on the gaiters... you may want to consider a pair of gaiters if you don't own a pair already.
I recommend Dirty Girl Gaiters (http://www.dirtygirlgaiters.com/buy-it.html)

[imscotty]

It depends a lot on where you are. It seems to be more common along the coast and in suburban areas.

It is because of all the 'no discharge of firearms' laws in the suburbs. The deer are taking over here.

[Another Kevin]

It is because of all the 'no discharge of firearms' laws in the suburbs. The deer are taking over here.

It's more because of all the unsecured garbage that you have in the city/suburbs. The primary hosts of deer ticks aren't deer, they're rodents. (I have a sneaking suspicion that a big fraction of backcountry ticks are living on shelter mice.)

[BuckeyeBill]

I can check THOSE places with the little mirror that I carry, thank you very much! But I do appreciate if a hiking partner can check the hairline at the back of my neck. I can't manage to contort to see that with just a mirror. I don't think that's too embarrassing to contemplate.


Also... if you're sensitive to DEET or worry about it, look for a repellent that uses picaridin instead. It doesn't have nearly the same chronic toxicity in animal studies.

+1 AK. I also feel checking or having someone check your back for the little bastards is not too much to ask. For women and men with hair, having someone else check it as well.

All my shirts, gaiters, hats and head net come pretreated with Insect Shield. Claims are good for 70 washings. I will have to treat my pants and a few other items with Permethrin before I leave, but I am hoping not to have any bites to worry about.

[Odd Man Out]

Also... if you're sensitive to DEET or worry about it, look for a repellent that uses picaridin instead. It doesn't have nearly the same chronic toxicity in animal studies.

+1 on this AK. Not sure why people are stuck on DEET when there is a better alternative around.

[survivalisthiker]

Believe it or not car nip is way more effective against Mosquitos then DEET is, maybe something to consider once you get more south


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[Dogwood]

Yes, sounds like you should look further into picaridin which is derived from pepper or botanical repellants containing Gerainol and other essential oils too. DEET also can enter the blood stream transdermally.

[TrippLite]

DEET also can enter the blood stream transdermally.

I would be most interested in your source please.... I would also be interested in the source of all you DEET haters that claim DEET is carcinogenic as my findings differ...

[Dogwood]

I don't hate DEET. I will use it on clothing not next to or on my skin if nothing else is available in some situations. However, here in the U.S I advise myself of alternatives that I feel are more in line with my proactive health concerns. I see Lemon Eucalyptus, and Picaridin as viable DEETalternatives. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/consultations/deet/pharmacokinetics.html http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/DEETgen.html It is known to irritate the eyes and in intense doses may induce neurological damage (Abdel-Rahman et al 2001, ATSDR 2004, Corbel et al. 2009). In very rare cases DEET has been reported to impair the nervous system, with symptoms including seizures, tremors and slurred speech, most often after exposure to high concentrations of the chemical (ATSDR 2004, Briassoulis 2001).

[bangorme]

I don't hate DEET. I will use it on clothing not next to or on my skin if nothing else is available in some situations. However, here in the U.S I advise myself of alternatives that I feel are more in line with my proactive health concerns. I see Lemon Eucalyptus, and Picaridin as viable DEETalternatives. http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/consultations/deet/pharmacokinetics.html http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/DEETgen.html It is known to irritate the eyes and in intense doses may induce neurological damage (Abdel-Rahman et al 2001, ATSDR 2004, Corbel et al. 2009). In very rare cases DEET has been reported to impair the nervous system, with symptoms including seizures, tremors and slurred speech, most often after exposure to high concentrations of the chemical (ATSDR 2004, Briassoulis 2001).

Don't confuse "less studied" with "less dangerous." DEET has been studied extensively for a long time. By far, almost all the research has shown it to be safe. I used to use Old Woodsman, but I have not doubt that it was more dangerous than DEET (which doesn't mean much since I think the danger is minuscule in both).

[MDSection12]

I'm currently a full-time trail builder (life is good) so I spend a lot of time in the woods. I had been using a 40% DEET spray, but the other day I sprayed it onto skin and noticed irritation almost immediately. I think I'll stop using it.

[Another Kevin]

I'm currently a full-time trail builder (life is good) so I spend a lot of time in the woods. I had been using a 40% DEET spray, but the other day I sprayed it onto skin and noticed irritation almost immediately. I think I'll stop using it.

Some people are allergic to DEET. (There's hardly anything that someone isn't allergic to, but sensitivity to DEET is pretty common.) Try picaridin instead and see if you tolerate that better. Sensitivity to lemon eucalyptus is also fairly common, by the way. The things that are irritating to bugs are, unsurprisingly, often irritating to humans.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

I have used 3M Ultrathon- 34% DEET, Repel 99% DEET, Off Deep Woods, picaridin, homemade lemongrass & eucalyptus & citronella. The Ultrathon worked well for me. I too have asthma, not bad, but did not experience any side effects from my DEET/Permethrin combo. Individual tolerances my vary.

[Kaptain Kangaroo]

I have used 3M Ultrathon- 34% DEET, Repel 99% DEET, Off Deep Woods, picaridin, homemade lemongrass & eucalyptus & citronella. The Ultrathon worked well for me. I too have asthma, not bad, but did not experience any side effects from my DEET/Permethrin combo. Individual tolerances my vary.

Yes, if you search for DEET effectiveness studies, results seem to show that there no increase in effectiveness above about 40% DEET. The 3M Ultrathon is good as it has some form of slow release technology, so although the % DEET is not high, it lasts a long time . But I would also put my vote in for Picaridin. I have found it as effective as DEET, but with the benefits of not dissolving any synthetic materials & not having that nasty greasy feeling on your skin.

[Snowleopard]

It depends a lot on where you are. It seems to be more common along the coast and in suburban areas.
This is true, but it is still exists other places. In 2013 in NH, it looks like once you're past Hanover, there was little or no Lyme disease. Here's a map of 2013 Lyme disease in NH:
http://www.dhhs.nh.gov/DPHS/cdcs/lyme/documents/maps2013.pdf
and a table by county:
http://www.dhhs.nh.gov/DPHS/cdcs/lyme/documents/county2013.pdf
Keep in mind that Lyme disease has been spreading, so this data is out of date.

I don't think DEET commonly triggers asthma. For me, my asthma is triggered by chemicals. I think I get a small amount of irritation from DEET which could tip me over the edge if I've been exposed to something else. This may be me being too cautious. I will carry DEET and use it in desperate circumstances (awful mosquitoes and black flies, too hot for headnet). Some of the 'natural' insect repellents are worse for my asthma than DEET. I haven't tried all these (picaridin, etc.), because testing on myself can be pretty unpleasant. I'm OK with permethrin if I'm careful applying it.