View Full Version : What would you do in this Situation?
You are thru hiking a very long trail and tired of hours of daily walk reach to a beautiful spot and decide to rest for 10 minutes.
After couple of minutes you notice a small stream of water is passing through the trail unnecessarily. If you spend 5 minutes there and adjust some small and medium rocks you can divert the stream out of the trail. Sun is burning hot over your head and you are just about a quarter into the trail.
The question is: What would you really do in this situation?
I've been in similar situations, and when I can make simple changes to water management on the trail, I make them.
Ricky&Jack
07-02-2014, 11:40
its not like "leave no trace" applies to this.
The A.T. clubs do this all the time. If you see something simple you think You can do to protect the trail, do it.
Well, of course, I would get a drink. :)
rocketsocks
07-02-2014, 13:20
Hey Kookork, been awhile, good ta see ya postin, hope your gettin in some hikin.
Small changes make small changes. But sometimes small changes make big changes. If said rock, or wooden step were just out of place of an existing erosional prevention feature, I'd put it back (and have) other wise, I'd move on allowing those clubs that maintain, to maintain. Spose one could contact the overseeing club.
Another Kevin
07-02-2014, 13:44
Hey Kookork, been awhile, good ta see ya postin, hope your gettin in some hikin.
Small changes make small changes. But sometimes small changes make big changes. If said rock, or wooden step were just out of place of an existing erosional prevention feature, I'd put it back (and have) other wise, I'd move on allowing those clubs that maintain, to maintain. Spose one could contact the overseeing club.
What he said. If "adjusting the rocks" is clearing an obvious waterbar or restoring the grade of an obvious Coweeta dip, I'll make the repair. But I certainly won't try to build a waterbar, because doing it wrong will do more harm than good. They need to be nearly solid rock. Little rocks will just get undercut by the flowing water. They need to be trenched half the height of the rock, and the waterbar has to be embedded a foot into the hill on the uphill side and six inches on the downhill side. If you use a log instead of rock, then you need rebar to stabilize it.
Simply placing stone that the water can undermine will just result in the stone being undermined, with a worse problem than before you started.
I would get out my camera and look for the large animal urinating just off trail.
I'll give a bigger PCT example. We came across a trench a meter deep and wide and many meters long right in the middle of the tread. There were two problems. One is that the tread wasn't correctly out sloped, which allowed water to run down the trail. When this happens on a small scale, it's easy enough to kick the berm and allow water to flow directly off in a few places than letting it flow down the tread and pick up speed where it can cause some real damage. This wasn't a small amount of water, but it would have been easy to stop if caught in time. There was a log upstream that fell and diverted the water from it's original bed that sent water through a water feature on the trail. That log was easy to move, but no one made that simple change in time, and the damage was immense when the spring melt hit full flow.
Hey Kookork, been awhile, good ta see ya postin, hope your gettin in some hikin.
Small changes make small changes. But sometimes small changes make big changes. If said rock, or wooden step were just out of place of an existing erosional prevention feature, I'd put it back (and have) other wise, I'd move on allowing those clubs that maintain, to maintain. Spose one could contact the overseeing club.
Thank you for noticing me rocketsocks!!:).
I have recently moved from Toronto to a small farmland base city named Chesley just 130 miles north of Toronto(population 1500 ). Almost rural community. It is a totally different lifestyle and mindset. I am adjusting to the new lifestyle and so far so good. I have my first tomato garden in 3 years and catching 2 pound bass in backyard is not hurting also.
Poeple in Toronto mostly have no interest in the rural side and farmer lifestyle and the history of farming communities. My dog likes the woods and I am rediscovering the sun and sound of birds.
rocketsocks
07-02-2014, 17:28
Thank you for noticing me rocketsocks!!:).
I have recently moved from Toronto to a small farmland base city named Chesley just 130 miles north of Toronto(population 1500 ). Almost rural community. It is a totally different lifestyle and mindset. I am adjusting to the new lifestyle and so far so good. I have my first tomato garden in 3 years and catching 2 pound bass in backyard is not hurting also.
Poeple in Toronto mostly have no interest in the rural side and farmer lifestyle and the history of farming communities. My dog likes the woods and I am rediscovering the sun and sound of birds.
Sounds real nice, especially the back yard honey hole for bass...good deal, and in my book...Priceless.
What he said. If "adjusting the rocks" is clearing an obvious waterbar or restoring the grade of an obvious Coweeta dip, I'll make the repair. But I certainly won't try to build a waterbar, because doing it wrong will do more harm than good. They need to be nearly solid rock. Little rocks will just get undercut by the flowing water. They need to be trenched half the height of the rock, and the waterbar has to be embedded a foot into the hill on the uphill side and six inches on the downhill side. If you use a log instead of rock, then you need rebar to stabilize it.
Simply placing stone that the water can undermine will just result in the stone being undermined, with a worse problem than before you started.
Are you this meticulous in your daily life Another Kevin?
Do you enjoy analyzing everything in detail and do you try to quantify the quality?Any success?
Consider this an honest curiosity please.
Never really considered "fixing" the trail while hiking it, else I'd never get anywhere. Maybe push away a loose rock or fallen branch, but not much more than that.
Another Kevin
07-02-2014, 19:22
Are you this meticulous in your daily life Another Kevin?
Do you enjoy analyzing everything in detail and do you try to quantify the quality?Any success?
Consider this an honest curiosity please.
I think I'll plead guilty to overthinking things and being too wordy.
He who knows: he is silent.
He who speaks: he does not know.
By nature, I'm a Confucian or a Legalist trying and failing to comprehend the Dao. I go hiking to try to turn that sort of thing off.
Kerosene
07-03-2014, 09:39
Kevin clearly has an engineering background of some sort. Even I have never used the word "flocculent" in a post!
What his post does make clear, however, is that installing a viable water bar is no simple task. Given my poor mechanical abilities, I limit myself to moving branches off-trail and clearing out at least one water bar a day.
WingedMonkey
07-03-2014, 09:49
Are you this meticulous in your daily life Another Kevin?
Do you enjoy analyzing everything in detail and do you try to quantify the quality?Any success?
Consider this an honest curiosity please.
Thing is...he's so damn good at it.
Reply's worth reading.
;)
I don't want to take anything away from Kevin, but you learn that kind of information when you work with a trail maintenance crew, and if you do, you'll learn it again in the trail maintenance guides published by the forest service, AMC, SCA, etc.
I would leave it alone. Just make sure Cosmo whose in charge of those matters for the local club got the word. Because I know he has to follow certain proceedures in certain areas. Like from Washington Mt Road Northbound the trail is on Federal Conservation land. They have certain rules and sometimes wildlife is involved. Like the beavers flooding the trail. He needed to check with the Feds before doing a reroute.
Turk6177
07-03-2014, 10:19
It sounds like a nice spot. I might look for a spot to set up my tent and stay for the night.
Another Kevin
07-03-2014, 14:00
Kevin clearly has an engineering background of some sort.
You nailed that one! BA in math, MS EE, PhD computer science. About thirty years in professional practice, the last 23 of them for GE Research, doing mostly image-guided instrumentation and control. Applications have ranged from TV networks to jet engines to medical diagnostics. I like the breadth of work; that's one nice thing about working for an outfit as diverse as GE. (And da longer ve vork here, diverse it gets...)
rocketsocks
07-03-2014, 14:31
Thing is...he's so damn good at it.
Reply's worth reading.
;)
Another Kelvin (and I say this with thee most respect and admiration) is one of the smartest, humble, funniest Phd'd engineers I've ever met, and I've taken direction from quite a few. It would be a joy to work at his direction, or just tag along on another hike...Aces in my book. I hope you do get a chance to hike with him WM, it's a good time.
Teacher & Snacktime
07-03-2014, 14:47
Are you this meticulous in your daily life Another Kevin?
Do you enjoy analyzing everything in detail and do you try to quantify the quality?Any success?
Consider this an honest curiosity please.
Can I answer this....not for Kevin but on his behalf? Well, I'm going to anyway :).
I've taken a couple of short, easy hikes with Kevin and I can say this: the brain never stops. This man is truly brilliant, and not only owns, but creatively and successfully maintains an awe-inspiring wealth of knowledge. I imagine where most see a bigger picture, he sees the detail within the gestalt without having to increase his focus; it comes naturally.
Add to this gift a patient, kind, and gentle personality and genuine humility that is wonderfully endearing and completely honest.
So to answer your question, Kookork......I don't know Kevin in the real world, but I can't imagine there's anything to him other than what he graces us with here. For me that's a cornucopia full of delight!
(No doubt Kelvin is blushing as he reads this and will likely try to rebut - don't let him)
Another Kevin
07-03-2014, 15:07
(No doubt Kelvin is blushing as he reads this and will likely try to rebut - don't let him)
A wiser fellow than I once pointed out to me that arguing with a compliment is belittling the one who's paying it. So rather than rebutting it, I'll just fidget uncomfortably. :o
Deer Hunter
07-03-2014, 16:08
Hey Kookork, been awhile, good ta see ya postin, hope your gettin in some hikin.
Small changes make small changes. But sometimes small changes make big changes. If said rock, or wooden step were just out of place of an existing erosional prevention feature, I'd put it back (and have) other wise, I'd move on allowing those clubs that maintain, to maintain. Spose one could contact the overseeing club.
I agree, good to see ya posting again, Kookork. :)
Deer Hunter
07-03-2014, 16:16
Can I answer this....not for Kevin but on his behalf? Well, I'm going to anyway :).
I've taken a couple of short, easy hikes with Kevin and I can say this: the brain never stops. This man is truly brilliant, and not only owns, but creatively and successfully maintains an awe-inspiring wealth of knowledge. I imagine where most see a bigger picture, he sees the detail within the gestalt without having to increase his focus; it comes naturally.
Add to this gift a patient, kind, and gentle personality and genuine humility that is wonderfully endearing and completely honest.
So to answer your question, Kookork......I don't know Kevin in the real world, but I can't imagine there's anything to him other than what he graces us with here. For me that's a cornucopia full of delight!
(No doubt Kelvin is blushing as he reads this and will likely try to rebut - don't let him)
I agree, Teacher. His posts are great, always contain a wealth of knowledge and they don't come off as condescending.
QHShowoman
07-03-2014, 17:18
What he said. If "adjusting the rocks" is clearing an obvious waterbar or restoring the grade of an obvious Coweeta dip, I'll make the repair. But I certainly won't try to build a waterbar, because doing it wrong will do more harm than good. They need to be nearly solid rock. Little rocks will just get undercut by the flowing water. They need to be trenched half the height of the rock, and the waterbar has to be embedded a foot into the hill on the uphill side and six inches on the downhill side. If you use a log instead of rock, then you need rebar to stabilize it.
Simply placing stone that the water can undermine will just result in the stone being undermined, with a worse problem than before you started.
Kevin, I think it's about time you upgrade that "Clueless Weekender" status of yours. ;-)
Teacher & Snacktime
07-03-2014, 20:10
A wiser fellow than I once pointed out to me that arguing with a compliment is belittling the one who's paying it. So rather than rebutting it, I'll just fidget uncomfortably. :o
Fair enough :)
Kevin, I think it's about time you upgrade that "Clueless Weekender" status of yours. ;-)
Goodness knows I've tried to get him to, QH.....but there's no arguing with his impeccably-thought-out explanation....sigh.
I agree, good to see ya posting again, Kookork. :)
Thank you.
It is quite a warm feeling when you realize people of this forum not only remember me but also kind of miss me.Rewarding indeed.
Can I answer this....not for Kevin but on his behalf? Well, I'm going to anyway :).
I've taken a couple of short, easy hikes with Kevin and I can say this: the brain never stops. This man is truly brilliant, and not only owns, but creatively and successfully maintains an awe-inspiring wealth of knowledge. I imagine where most see a bigger picture, he sees the detail within the gestalt without having to increase his focus; it comes naturally.
Add to this gift a patient, kind, and gentle personality and genuine humility that is wonderfully endearing and completely honest.
So to answer your question, Kookork......I don't know Kevin in the real world, but I can't imagine there's anything to him other than what he graces us with here. For me that's a cornucopia full of delight!
(No doubt Kelvin is blushing as he reads this and will likely try to rebut - don't let him)
See Teacher, even you may be interested to know what I asked in the first place.I don't judge him for being meticulous ( is meticulous a positive or negative adjective?). I just want to know that is the "Kevin the husband" more forgiving about the details or not.
Another Kevin
07-04-2014, 12:14
See Teacher, even you may be interested to know what I asked in the first place.I don't judge him for being meticulous ( is meticulous a positive or negative adjective?). I just want to know that is the "Kevin the husband" more forgiving about the details or not.
I'll delve into the details once again: You asked what I would do, not what I would expect of others!
For what it's worth, I was very particular in my choice of wife - I didn't marry until I was in my thirties - but the choice has been a good one for both of us. We're still happily married, nearly a quarter-century later. She forgives my many faults, and I overlook her few ones. We're both happy in a messy house with an unkempt garden. There are a lot of interests that we do not share - for instance, she is entirely a non-hiker. I believe that common values are a much more important foundation for a marriage than common interests. (Our important common interest is our daughter!) She even puts up with the fact that I talk too much... and I've learnt that "yes, dear," in a particular tone of voice is a polite suggestion that I'm doing it again.
Patrickjd9
07-04-2014, 12:53
I've been a trail maintainer for over 30 years. It doesn't go away just because I'm not on a work trip. It's rare that I'll get through a day of hiking without doing something that could be called maintenance, could be pulling away a fallen branch, cleaning out a waterbar with the heel of my boot, or breaking off a small branch growing in front of a blaze.
The Old Boot
07-04-2014, 13:06
I've been a trail maintainer for over 30 years. It doesn't go away just because I'm not on a work trip. It's rare that I'll get through a day of hiking without doing something that could be called maintenance, could be pulling away a fallen branch, cleaning out a waterbar with the heel of my boot, or breaking off a small branch growing in front of a blaze.
I haven't gotten nearly the 30 years of trail maintenance that Patrick has but I'm the same way. 2 weeks ago I was out on a trail that was almost unmaintained in spots and it was a good thing I didn't have any tools with me (it was a group hike). I'd still be out there :rolleyes:.
Campsites get cleaned up when I'm near, even in maintained campgrounds!
Of course, part of that is also the CITO mind frame from geocaching as well. There's always a trash bag in my day pack.
I have tremendous respect for AK, and have always interpreted the "clueless weekender" moniker as a humble reminder that as much as we know, there is always much more to learn.
I must admit that I do use the word "flocculent," but only in the context of brewing and yeast. :)
Teacher & Snacktime
07-04-2014, 15:11
I have tremendous respect for AK, and have always interpreted the "clueless weekender" moniker as a humble reminder that as much as we know, there is always much more to learn.
What a great way to look at it....thanks. AK has tried to defend it to me many times, but I never really "got it"....now I do.
I must admit that I do use the word "flocculent," but only in the context of brewing and yeast. :)
Despite my moniker, I don't claim to own all definitions and an unlimited vocabulary, but I have always thought that "flocculent" was a perfectly cromulent word. :D
Another Kevin
07-04-2014, 16:00
Despite my moniker, I don't claim to own all definitions and an unlimited vocabulary, but I have always thought that "flocculent" was a perfectly cromulent word. :D
I thought it sounded better than "the goo they put in the pond at the water treatment plant to make the sediment settle faster." :D
Starchild
07-04-2014, 16:26
If one can help and has the knowledge and has the time/energy to do so it will be appreciated, but it is not required. Do what you can, but also enjoy your trip. Don't feel obligated but enjoy helping if you can.
As said above if one does it wrong you could cause more trail damage, so it pays to look into how do do it before you actually do it if you feel inclined.
Cookerhiker
07-04-2014, 18:21
You are thru hiking a very long trail and tired of hours of daily walk reach to a beautiful spot and decide to rest for 10 minutes.
After couple of minutes you notice a small stream of water is passing through the trail unnecessarily. If you spend 5 minutes there and adjust some small and medium rocks you can divert the stream out of the trail. Sun is burning hot over your head and you are just about a quarter into the trail.
The question is: What would you really do in this situation?
Trying to answer as literally as possible for the posited scenario, I'd leave it be if I'm on a long hike and tired at the end of the day when I come upon the stream. But if I'm day-hiking and the "adjustment" only takes 5 minutes, I'd probably "fix" it.
When day-hiking with my group that goes out every 2 weeks, I always flick branches and loose stones aside with my trekking poles and more than once, have returned with my bow saw to remove blowdowns.