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Mags
07-06-2014, 13:42
Shameless plug for an article I wrote about technology on the trail. May be of interest?

http://www.trailgroove.com/issue16.html?autoflip=49

Feral Bill
07-06-2014, 14:30
Good article. I remain appalled at peoples addiction to this nonsense, even as I walk around with a cell phone in my pocket. Fortunately, the back country in my region is devoid of reception.

Another Kevin
07-06-2014, 17:17
Good article!

The extent of the distaste that some people have for these devices baffles me. I leave mine in "Airplane Mode" essentially all the time I'm out, because otherwise the fact that I'm out of range causes it to burn the battery trying to find a tower. That means that the device will never interrupt me on the trail unless I'm using it as an alarm clock.

I mostly dislike wearing a headset on the trail, so I'm essentially never using the phone as a music player. If it isn't playing, it can't annoy anyone else with my tunes.

I often have an ebook or six on it, several alternative maps of the area that I'm hiking, a note-taking application, and of course I use the camera function (particularly if I haven't brought a separate camera). Personally, I don't see how that's different in principle from reading a book, consulting a map, taking field notes, or photography done with a less high-tech device, other than the fact that I'd be carrying a greater weight of paper. (I still bring at least one topo map of the region I'm hiking, a magnetic compass, and a wristwatch, so don't get on me about using GPS as a crutch!)

I do, when I get onto a high ridge where I think I might be able to find a signal, turn the radios on long enough to send a text message to my wife, in the interest of domestic tranquility. (She worries!) This happens about once a day. As Mags suggests, I treat it about the same way as I'd treat a side trip to dig a hole; don't do it in front of people, don't discuss the proceedings unless others have a direct interest (as in, "I got ahold of my wife, and she'll be happy to shuttle us," or similar information), and generally pretend it didn't happen.

But some people that I meet tell me it ruins their wilderness experience even to discover that the thing is in my pack. Is it rude to bring a phone out to use it as a camera, or look something up in a wildflower guide?

moytoy
07-16-2014, 16:46
Nice article Mags. Humans have been carrying radios to the tops of mountains to receive and transmit for longer than most of us have been alive. I now carry one myself. I have a new one that will be here next week. (9 oz) Do I string up my antenna in a shelter? No, and I go out of my way to stay away from others when I'm transmitting or receiving but I'm not going to apologize to a hiker who hangs around to listen just so he can complain. A cell phone is nothing more than a radio. The only difference is that anybody who wants one can have one.

rocketsocks
07-16-2014, 19:02
I'm having trouble accessing trail groove on my devise, so I'll read the article when I return home, now that said I can comment on the topic as it's one that has come up before, and I do have an opinion, go figure. I like technology ie; smart phones (computers really) with the ability for two way communication. When someone says "I saw a guy using his phone at a vista, and it ruined my trip" I think, wow, did it really ruin your trip, or would you have just prefered not to have that happen. When I read a post about someone journaling in a shelter on a smart phone and how this shouldn't be allowed, I think, dude are you serious! When we express ourselves on line, it's easy to use stronger words than we might otherwise in person, so when we say my whole trip was ruined, do we mean ruined, or do we mean " I saw a guy using his phone, and that style is not for me" just a thought.

rocketsocks
07-16-2014, 19:06
If the answer is "ruined, completely ruin my trip" than to that I say...you really need to get out more, maybe take a hike.

Likeapuma
07-16-2014, 20:19
I can't understand how me taking out my silenced/airplane-moded cellphone to take a picture is any different than someone else taking out a camera? Especially a big fancy camera with a tripod lol.

Havana
09-04-2014, 09:54
I'm just getting back into backpacking after decades away but I can't imagine not using smartphones like I use any other piece of new technology including these great internal frame packs and ultra light tents. Love the maps and the guides and the connection to home. Sure, there are folks who use technology inappropriately whether they're in an AT shelter or on the 5:25 out of Grand Central Station. Do people actually know that you don't have to yell in order for people to hear you? Do they know that I can hear the music coming out of the speaker tied to their backpack? Do they know that if they do that crap after dark at a campsite we're going to have words? That said, at the end of the day it all comes down to a principle that all of you have taught me: HYOH.

Mags
09-04-2014, 11:26
I honestly believe if people used the "bathroom principle", a lot of these discussions would not have to be had. :)

OTOH, I truly believe the electronic leash is going to be more and more pronounced in the years ahead. More and more people are on-call (outside of medical and other truly important services) and expected to be reached on vacation.

Havana
09-04-2014, 11:53
I'm one of those people. Of course, it cuts both ways. In a world of "work-life integration" I'm not expected to be at my desk between 9 and 5 but I am expected to answer the phone whenever it rings. That said, if I did a thru hike I'd untether myself from all that. Sadly, I live the life of a section hiker (for now). :)

Old_Man
09-04-2014, 12:13
I recently received an iphone--a gift, not something I purchased for myself. I'm not a Luddite but I don't get obsessed with technology the way many other young people do. The last time I went out for a multi-day backpacking trip, I listened to some quiet jazz while I was setting up camp and enjoying a glass of whiskey round the fire. Did I need the cell phone/radio? No, but it was nice having a little music to listen to. Later when I managed to locate a signal, I was able to call home and check in. Again, not absolutely necessary but I was alone and it was nice hearing a familiar voice after being out in the woods for a few days.

It seems like there are a lot of gizmos being marketed to outdoorsy people now, particularly since there are solar charges that you can strap to your backpack. I'm all for hike your own hike but I like to hike light and a lot of that stuff is heavy.

10-K
09-04-2014, 12:27
If you hike solo, or pseudo-solo, it's a non-issue.

Pedaling Fool
09-04-2014, 13:44
I honestly believe if people used the "bathroom principle", a lot of these discussions would not have to be had. :)
...but, but, people have Rights...:D

There are many people that feel this way and when they are confronted with this principle they are actually offended. What can you do...:rolleyes:

So much for etiquette;)

rocketsocks
09-04-2014, 15:49
I honestly believe if people used the "bathroom principle", a lot of these discussions would not have to be had. :)


...what is the bathroom principal? I keep getting google stories of...well, never mind. but it ain't pretty.

Another Kevin
09-04-2014, 17:02
I'm one of those people. Of course, it cuts both ways. In a world of "work-life integration" I'm not expected to be at my desk between 9 and 5 but I am expected to answer the phone whenever it rings. That said, if I did a thru hike I'd untether myself from all that. Sadly, I live the life of a section hiker (for now). :)

I hike a lot in places where coverage is entirely nonexistent. Someone else had better be 'on call' when I'm out of range. Even the doctors and emergency workers arrange for people to take their calls when they're off duty. And few managers are actually willing to come right out and say, "Yes, I expect you to be available all the time, even when I'm not paying you." In fact, if you pitch it right, it comes across as responsible: "If we never put them on the spot, how will we know if Joe and Sally can handle issues if God forbid I get run over by a truck?"

Of course, this doesn't work if you actually do work for a psychopath. But in general, good luck with that. Giving in to a psychopath's demands simply invites more abuse. I had a gig like that some years ago. I did a total "by the book" on it - wound up writing to my division VP, the head of HR at my site, and the customer's boss requesting a specific weekend off - six months in advance. Everyone said, "you don't have to do that!" I replied, "I have reason to believe that I do, and I'm continuing to request written permission to take off that specific weekend for travel." I was stubborn enough that I got written permission. I left a formal call plan for who would take my calls for what responsibilities.

I sent a reminder to all concerned two weeks before the date. Again, it was, "You don't need permission to take time off on a weekend!" I replied again, "I have reason to believe that I do."

Of course, when the date actually came, the customer simply tried to call me and then had a temper tantrum when I didn't pick up the phone immediately - called my boss's boss in a range demanding to know where I was and why I wasn't available. This turned out to be an eye-opener about how he was treating my team. The end result was that it cost the customer a LOT of money when the contract came up for renewal. He knew he couldn't do without us, and wound up paying a much higher rate than our standard scale.

I also started being able to get away with saying things like, "I thought this issue looked familiar, and went back into the logs. I found that I'd signed an engineering change order on an emergency basis at two AM last Christmas Eve addressing it. It appears that you still haven't actually deployed the change. The problem was important enough for you to drag me out of bed on Christmas, and eight months later it was important enough for you to drag me out of bed on my vacation. It's puzzling that in the intervening eight months it was not important enough for you to order your technicians to deploy the change during routine down time."

The day after that, the guy called me with another question, and his boss came into the room remembering the previous contract negotiation (and the fact that my boss had called him up to warn that the situation was not improving). The boss guy said to the customer, "Is that Kevin on the speakerphone? You have two minutes to get off the phone with him. Then see me in my office."

(It took another couple of years, but we eventually fired the customer. We preferred ones that actually paid the bills and didn't abuse our staff.)

Another Kevin
09-04-2014, 17:03
...what is the bathroom principal? I keep getting google stories of...well, never mind. but it ain't pretty.

Treat using a phone like going to the bathroom. You don't do it in the middle of a group of other hikers or at a table in a restaurant. You excuse yourself and step away from the group, because nobody wants to see or hear either activity.

rocketsocks
09-04-2014, 17:07
Treat using a phone like going to the bathroom. You don't do it in the middle of a group of other hikers or at a table in a restaurant. You excuse yourself and step away from the group, because nobody wants to see or hear either activity.
aaah, I couldn't get my mind past flush it, Thanks Kelvin :)

rafe
09-04-2014, 17:34
It's just another tool. I started hiking in the 1970s, long before cell phones existed... so I didn't miss them. Didn't get my first cell phone till about 2002 or so, and my first "usable" smart phone less than a year ago.

I use the phone to keep in contact with my wife on multi-day hikes. She's a nervous Nellie, wants to hear from me. She understands that there will be days when I can't call. I've also used it to make contact with shuttlers and other service providers at road crossings.

Phone is off except when I choose to make a connection, usually in the evening, or sometimes at a high open peak where a signal is likely.

If battery life were not an issue, I'd use it for other things as well -- for music, maybe as a camera, e-book reader at camp, etc. On short hikes I may leave it on and use it as a camera. For local hikes (near my home) I've found the navigation features extremely useful. Just finding the trailhead is often a battle!

rafe
09-04-2014, 18:01
Just as an aside, the photography in TrailGroove is beautiful!

Tuckahoe
09-04-2014, 18:01
I can just imagin a tavern in Venice, about 1210AD and that crusty ol sailor bitching and whinin about those damn young hot shot sailors and their new fangled compass...

rocketsocks
09-04-2014, 18:41
Just as an aside, the photography in TrailGroove is beautiful!...that's what keeps me comin back...and the written word too.

rocketsocks
09-04-2014, 18:45
It's just another tool. I started hiking in the 1970s, long before cell phones existed... so I didn't miss them. Didn't get my first cell phone till about 2002 or so, and my first "usable" smart phone less than a year ago.

I use the phone to keep in contact with my wife on multi-day hikes. She's a nervous Nellie, wants to hear from me. She understands that there will be days when I can't call. I've also used it to make contact with shuttlers and other service providers at road crossings.

Phone is off except when I choose to make a connection, usually in the evening, or sometimes at a high open peak where a signal is likely.

If battery life were not an issue, I'd use it for other things as well -- for music, maybe as a camera, e-book reader at camp, etc. On short hikes I may leave it on and use it as a camera. For local hikes (near my home) I've found the navigation features extremely useful. Just finding the trailhead is often a battle!
...nothing like with orderin' a pizza and having it delivered to the trail head after a hard day. :D

Can a brother get a Amen!

Mags
09-04-2014, 21:11
I can just imagin a tavern in Venice, about 1210AD and that crusty ol sailor bitching and whinin about those damn young hot shot sailors and their new fangled compass...


Yes..but I doubt those sailor's had bosses/customers demanding why they weren't avail on their vacation. :)

Technology is great. I've made a career of it afterall.

Does not mean I want people to have an expectation I can be reached 365/24/7.

And that happens more than you may think in today's business world. I've fought it and (mainly) won. Others have not.

rocketsocks
09-04-2014, 21:44
Yes..but I doubt those sailor's had bosses/customers demanding why they weren't avail on their vacation. :)

Technology is great. I've made a career of it afterall.

Does not mean I want people to have an expectation I can be reached 365/24/7.

And that happens more than you may think in today's business world. I've fought it and (mainly) won. Others have not.the fax machine really put the screws to the working man...no excuse not to get it done NOW! but I won't carry one. :D

Kerosene
09-05-2014, 13:09
Just ran across this 2-oz device that creates a cellular network with your smartphone that can connect by text with similar devices, more or less line-of-sight with a 2-50 mile range. If enough people spread out over a wide enough area carried these then all but the most remote wilderness would be accessible.

http://www.cnet.com/news/gotenna-creates-cell-network-out-of-thin-air-anywhere-on-earth/

Not saying that I would carry one, but I've finally resorted to carrying a smartphone if only because you can't find a payphone anymore!

Another Kevin
09-05-2014, 17:26
Just ran across this 2-oz device that creates a cellular network with your smartphone that can connect by text with similar devices, more or less line-of-sight with a 2-50 mile range. If enough people spread out over a wide enough area carried these then all but the most remote wilderness would be accessible.

http://www.cnet.com/news/gotenna-creates-cell-network-out-of-thin-air-anywhere-on-earth/

Not saying that I would carry one, but I've finally resorted to carrying a smartphone if only because you can't find a payphone anymore!

I would like to see these banned in certain wilderness areas. I'm fine with the fact that I have no cell coverage in most of the Adirondack Park. I can tell my boss, "sorry, I won't be able to take your calls because I'm incommunicado where I'm going. If you absolutely must reach me, send out a guy with a dog to track me, because that's the only way you'll find me."

I find that most of the time, bosses bluster, but when push comes to shove, they won't come right out and admit that they expect 24/7/365 availability. Instead, it's "well, at a time like this...." which I can answer with, "I requested this specific time in writing months ago, so everyone on the team has had ample opportunity to plan around it. I've arranged for Xxxx to take my calls. I think this will be a good test for how well the organization can get along without me for a short period. I'd be irresponsible if I didn't have a plan for that. What if God forbid I got sick or had an accident?" When they continue to bluster, they rapidly realize that they're starting to say, "I own all your time, on or off the job." They are typically very reluctant to say that in so many words.

I did once have an episode of working for a psychopathic customer. Eventually I wound up writing a letter to my divisional VP, copy to the head of HR for my site, asking for written clearance to take off a specific weekend (not my normal work time) six months in advance, with a written coverage plan for handling my calls. I got a call back: "You totally don't need to do this!" I replied, "Then you shouldn't have any issue with approving this request, which I'm making in a superabundance of caution." I sent my management chain and my customer written reminders of the requested time, including the coverage plan, a month, two weeks, and a week in advance. Sure enough, on the Saturday morning, the customer is pitching a tantrum at my boss's boss demanding to know why I'm not answering the phone. Boss's boss is well aware, having got the reminders, that I'm away and have planned for the absence in excruciating detail. And it did get escalated as high as the divisional VP who had told me that I didn't need to clear the absence with her. She thanked me afterwards for making her aware of the situation.

We fired the customer about half a year later. He always used the subjects of his tantrums as excuses not to pay the bill. It took having me react as an adult to make the rest of the organization also start acting like adults and stop rewarding inappropriate behavior..

wnderer
09-05-2014, 18:20
It's the 21st Century. Unless you have someone at home managing your affairs, you have to go online to check your banking, credit cards, etc. In 2007, I used public computers at libraries and hotels, but I don't trust them anymore. I don't own a smart phone right now, but if I did another long hike, I think I would need to get one. If I'm carrying it I would try to use it to replace books, maps and whatever other weight I can get rid of.

Mags
09-05-2014, 18:39
It may be the 21st century..does that mean technology people like Kevin and myself should be reached 365/24/7 ? :)

Technology is a great thing. In my pocket, I have a device that can look up directions, get recipes, take photos, send emails and have a quick video call with my adorable 4 yr old niece. Amazing!


On the other hand, there is a very unrealistic expectation, that is happening more and more, that your job is more important than rest of the life.

I work. I enjoy my current job. While technology is not my dream occupation, it has allowed me to take some long walks and purchase things for one of my real passions.


But it really is getting to the point where ALL your time is expected to be be owned.

Kevin and I want no part of that.

Sending off an "I'm OK" message to a loved one? Awesome!


Getting involved in a conference call because some sales person needs something done RIGHT. THIS. INSTANT.

No.


Tools are great.

But they can be misused.

What was supposed to save us time is taking up more and more of our time.

The shackle may be lined with velvet, but it still a shackle if you are not careful.

Dogwood
09-05-2014, 18:45
"On the other hand, there is a very unrealistic expectation, that is happening more and more, that your job is more important than rest of the life.
"Order order order efficiency proficiency produce produce produce.........we own you. crack snap crack that whip onward upward be the obedient worker minion :)

wnderer
09-05-2014, 21:49
It may be the 21st century..does that mean technology people like Kevin and myself should be reached 365/24/7 ? :)


No. I didn't mean that. My experience is sort of the opposite. I can't phone my job in, because of technology. If somebody had a question, I have to have my work computer to find the information or run some program to generate the information.

Mags
09-05-2014, 22:22
I do too. But the expectation is that not only can I be reached, but I have a hotspot on my iPhone so I can do,work on my company issued laptop. ;)

rocketsocks
09-06-2014, 01:09
8 for 8 headed for the gate baby, see ya Monday...Maybe, depends on if my team wins Sunday and how upset it makes me. :D



The Boss~Socks, how come you only work 4 days a week, when everyone else is here for the whole nut.

Socks~ Cause I can't make it on three. :D

atraildreamer
09-08-2014, 13:35
A lot of people are "camping out" with technology: