View Full Version : Jetboil titanium upgrade?
A lot of criticism of the Jetboil stove here and elsewhere centers on its relatively heavy weight. That's certainly the main reason I won't get one. But it seems so easy to fix -- just switch the cup from aluminum to titanium. The weight savings would be significant, probably bringing it down to near 8 or 9 ounces. Weaker heat conduction should not be much of an issue, since the heat exchanger covers most of the bottom of the cup, and anyway you are usually heating a liquid, not something that will burn in one small spot.
Anything wrong with this idea? Any tinkerers out there thought of trying it? (I've written to Jetboil asking about it and they just sent me a form response saying "aluminum is the best" without addressing the above point -- clearly no interest in innovation there.) Could probably make a prototype using one of the 1-L Titanium pot/kettles and bonding it somehow to a disassembled jetboil base..
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-06-2005, 10:44
Uh, other than the fact that aluminum's denisty is 2700 kg/sqm ti's density is 4510 kg/sqm?
The "weight" of the jetboil is not due to the fact that the cup is aluminum, it's due to the heat/sink/burner/stand assembly. NOT the cup.
A lot of criticism of the Jetboil stove here and elsewhere centers on its relatively heavy weight. That's certainly the main reason I won't get one. But it seems so easy to fix -- just switch the cup from aluminum to titanium. The weight savings would be significant, probably bringing it down to near 8 or 9 ounces. Weaker heat conduction should not be much of an issue, since the heat exchanger covers most of the bottom of the cup, and anyway you are usually heating a liquid, not something that will burn in one small spot.
Anything wrong with this idea? Any tinkerers out there thought of trying it? (I've written to Jetboil asking about it and they just sent me a form response saying "aluminum is the best" without addressing the above point -- clearly no interest in innovation there.) Could probably make a prototype using one of the 1-L Titanium pot/kettles and bonding it somehow to a disassembled jetboil base..
i love my jetboil,i am staying with the president of jetboil and his family when i get to hanover next week on my section hike,jetboil is awesome,:cool: neo
Freighttrain
10-06-2005, 11:48
it is an excellent stove, i would however like to see it with a somewhat wider cup/pot... cleaning up after a deluxe mac n cheese as an example, is a very messy ordeal stuffing my big meaty paws down inside the cheese sauce covered narrow cup/pot
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-06-2005, 12:20
it is an excellent stove, i would however like to see it with a somewhat wider cup/pot... cleaning up after a deluxe mac n cheese as an example, is a very messy ordeal stuffing my big meaty paws down inside the cheese sauce covered narrow cup/pot
I know they have the "skillet stand" out now, but I agree with you, a shorter / wider pot or skiller with the flux ring integrated would be awefully nice.
Just Jeff
10-06-2005, 14:00
That's my biggest gripe...I wish they'd make one shaped more like a traditional pot.
I emailed them several months ago to see if they had any plans for that, and they said no. The shape adds to the efficiency so they plan to keep it that way.
Understood, but I'd be willing to sacrifice a little bit of efficiency to be able to clean my pot!
Clark Fork
10-06-2005, 14:53
it is an excellent stove, i would however like to see it with a somewhat wider cup/pot... cleaning up after a deluxe mac n cheese as an example, is a very messy ordeal stuffing my big meaty paws down inside the cheese sauce covered narrow cup/pot
This combo was made especially to suit the jet boil. The spork is extra long and the spatula scrapes well to keep food from sticking on the sides. Makes clean up a breeze. The tines are not so pointy they will stick through a zip bag. The spatular has serrated side that will cut through a bagel. These are really remarkable. Weight weinies will just take the spork...
They are just out and new this year. They clip together, another unmentioned feature.
$1.98 on eBay.
http://www.guyotdesigns.com/products/mealgear/mealgear.php
Regards,
Clark Fork in Western Montana "Where seldom is heard a discouraging word."
Freighttrain
10-06-2005, 15:12
looks like a nice combo and ill prolly buy a set.. i see the spork as perfect for the Jet but IMO the spatchula is not needed... perhapps a sponge on a wand used to clean drinking glasses will work...
i have no idea why they said a tall narrow pot is more efficient?? material and color the same, the wider pot will boil water faster... it has more surface area directly over the fire
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-06-2005, 15:18
hadn't thought about that spork for with the jetboil... seen it, but hadn't thought about the jetboil. cool.
soulrebel
10-06-2005, 18:00
JetBoil System
lid
1.3
neoprene sleeve w/ handle
1.3
cup (3 cup, heat exchanger, windscreen)
5.5
stove(built-in ignitor)
6.1
Total base system w/o fuel
14.2
System w/ Fuel
20.5
Additonal items
3 way plastic base
1.0
pan adapter
1.3
Fuel container (full)
6.3
plastic basecover/dish/measuring cup1.0
Kerosene
10-06-2005, 18:14
aluminum's denisty is 2700 kg/sqm ti's density is 4510 kg/sqmNote that titanium is best used in situations where strength is critical, in which case a titanium object can be substantially thinner than an equally strong aluminum object. Unless you're planning to sit on your aluminum cup it's probably as light as it's going to get.
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-06-2005, 19:10
Note that titanium is best used in situations where strength is critical, in which case a titanium object can be substantially thinner than an equally strong aluminum object. Unless you're planning to sit on your aluminum cup it's probably as light as it's going to get. that was exactly my point. ti's "lightness" is in it's strength to weight ratio not in it's low density...
JetBoil System
(snip..)
Thanks for this helpful info. Given the materials and weights of related items on the market right now, it seems like it ought to be possible to knock 2.5 oz off the cup, 3oz off the stove, 0.7 oz off the lid (go with lightweight, rather than bulletproof, philosophy), bringing the whole down to a much happier 8oz. (Sans fuel.)
I guess Gigapeak and MSR are the obvious companies to try it, since they already make the components (titanium pots, canister stoves).
Just Jeff
10-06-2005, 20:09
The stove and three-way base does seem a bit overbuilt to me, but I'm not a designer so I don't know why they designed it like they did.
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-07-2005, 12:56
Thanks for this helpful info. Given the materials and weights of related items on the market right now, it seems like it ought to be possible to knock 2.5 oz off the cup, 3oz off the stove, 0.7 oz off the lid (go with lightweight, rather than bulletproof, philosophy), bringing the whole down to a much happier 8oz. (Sans fuel.)
I guess Gigapeak and MSR are the obvious companies to try it, since they already make the components (titanium pots, canister stoves). and how do you propose bringing the weight of the cup down? most of the weight is in the flux ring / stove connection... also, most of the 'extra' weight of the stove is in (again) the cup connection...
Getting rid of the lid, yeah that'll save you 1.3 oz (max), lets say you chop 1 cup off of the capacity of the cup, well, the differnce between the snowpeak ti 300 (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/mg042fh.htm)(1+ cup) and 600 (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/mg042fh.htm)(2+ cups) (simliar heigh diameter ratio to jetboil, they both have the same handles, so that's a neglible difference) is so the "cost" gaining about a 1 cup capacity (actually 1.2 cups) is 2.8-1.9 = 0.9 oz... multiply that by 1.2 = 1.1 oz potential wieght savings but as has been said ti is MORE DENSE than aluminum, so a realistic number is losing 1 oz by reducing the capacity of the cup...
The auto-igniter on the snowpeak stoves weighs 0.5-0.6 oz (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/gp004.htm)... you "might" be able to trip some of the plastic off the stove (the "peak" looking things) for another .5 oz
So, WITHOUT losing much funcionality, except for a third of the capacity (NOTE functionality NOT durability)
You're down to saving 1.3+1+1 oz... Oh, I guess you'd save around 0.5 oz on the cozy as it would now be smaller... so you'd save 3.8 oz... but you'd have to worry about boiling over 2 cups... about half of that weight is from removing the lid and the autoigniter...:datz
and don't get me started on making the pot a more 'effecient' dimension (http://www.backpackgeartest.org/reviews/Cook%20Gear/Cook%20Sets/GSI%20Hard%20Anodized%20Boiler%20Cookset/GSI%20Hard%20Anodized%20Aluminum%20Double%20Boiler %20Cook%20Set/)... the GSI 3.5 cup part of the double boiler wieghs 3.5 oz, and is a "more effecient weight to volume dimension as it's short and fat... however, now, you gotta increase the flux ring size... and the stove connector size... so you're likely back to square one.
remember, half the reason to buy a jetboil is NOT because it's the lightest solution on the market, it's because the functionality of the flux ring + engineered stove + cozy/cup/windscreen in one small (relatively) lightweight, effecient package...
If you think it's so heavy, go buy a small stove (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/gst100.htm), and a small cup (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/mg042fh.htm) and make your own windscreen (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/gp004.htm)... :eek:
Or you could go alcohol (http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/xdpy/forum_thread/1345/index.html?mv_session_id=STvkCtoc&mv_pc=145&skip_to_post=8665#8665)
the jetboil was never meant for gram-weenies...
I'm not saying the JB is not great, but if we can put a man on the moon and 1000 songs in your pocket, I want something better. I like the idea of the JB's convenience, but I don't want to pay the weight for it. And I just thought, if Snowpeak can make a 28 oz JB-like cuppot + 10 oz minipot that together weigh 5.5oz (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/scs004.htm), and a stove that weighs 2.5oz (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/gst100.htm), that gives around a 6.5oz base weight, given technology already on the shelf. So how much do the other components have to weigh? To think that a 14oz JB, adding half a pound essentially to attach the stove to the cup (plus a little bit of baffling), add a plastic lid and a neoprene cozy, is the best we can do, well, no way! ;-)
(I use a light canister stove now, alcohol sounds like more fiddling than I want to deal with, though I recognize the weight advantage..)
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-08-2005, 09:50
except they're NOT going to weigh 5.5 oz... you're forgetting the heat exchanger / flux ring...
SGT Rock
10-08-2005, 10:07
I'm not saying the JB is not great, but if we can put a man on the moon and 1000 songs in your pocket, I want something better. I like the idea of the JB's convenience, but I don't want to pay the weight for it. And I just thought, if Snowpeak can make a 28 oz JB-like cuppot + 10 oz minipot that together weigh 5.5oz (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/scs004.htm), and a stove that weighs 2.5oz (http://www.snowpeak.com/gears/gst100.htm), that gives around a 6.5oz base weight, given technology already on the shelf. So how much do the other components have to weigh? To think that a 14oz JB, adding half a pound essentially to attach the stove to the cup (plus a little bit of baffling), add a plastic lid and a neoprene cozy, is the best we can do, well, no way! ;-)
(I use a light canister stove now, alcohol sounds like more fiddling than I want to deal with, though I recognize the weight advantage..)
There was a review of canister stoves on BPGT, they found the much cheaper and lighter Coleman F1 ultralight (uses normal canisters) got very similar performance and efficiency and didn't require flux rings and special pots. I did a comparison of price and weight here with another pot/stove system using a titanium normal sized and shaped pot and showed how you can get all the functions without the drawbacks.
IMO a lot of the Jet Boil is well marketed do-dad add ons that don't really acount for that great a performance jump based on the reviews and actuall performance analysis I have seen. Basically they added some stuff on that seems to help perfomance wil increasing the weight, the price, and the coolness factor.
Of course I have never tested the Jet boil personally, but I did go to the booth last Trail Days and met Jack's "friend". Their 1 minute boil, while impressive, was missleading and when I quized the guy there about all that and pointed out what that really translated into with real cooking perfomance he had to agree with everything I had assumed based on the data.
SGT Rock
10-08-2005, 10:21
My bad, it was the Pocket Rocket I wrote the comparison with in this post: http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showpost.php?p=99144&postcount=28
So take what I wrote about the Pocket Rocket and reduce the weight by .34 ounces.
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-09-2005, 18:43
It seems I've read reviews of the F1 being a fairly decent offering, especially considering it's a very "affordable" offering.
gardenville
10-09-2005, 19:42
Find a used JetBoil real cheap. Take the Flex Ring part off. Adapte a good alcohol soda can type stove to use with it. Been done. You now have the best of 1.5 worlds. The Flex Ring (.5)and a good alcohol stove (1).
Note however, that for the weight of the Flex Ring you don't really get your "Weights" worth in added effectiveness.
Two Speed
10-09-2005, 19:50
Find a used JetBoil real cheap. Take the Flex Ring part off. Adapte a good alcohol soda can type stove to use with it. Been done. You now have the best of 1.5 worlds. The Flex Ring (.5)and a good alcohol stove (1).
Note however, that for the weight of the Flex Ring you don't really get your "Weights" worth in added effectiveness.
Or a Trangia Ti? :-?
gardenville
10-09-2005, 20:00
Find a used JetBoil real cheap. Take the Flex Ring part off. Adapte a good alcohol soda can type stove to use with it. Been done. You now have the best of 1.5 worlds. The Flex Ring (.5)and a good alcohol stove (1).
Note however, that for the weight of the Flex Ring you don't really get your "Weights" worth in added effectiveness.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/8926/sort/1/cat/500/page/1
SGT Rock
10-09-2005, 20:53
Well really if you think about it, you would want equal surface area for the contact of heat to the pot and pot to the water. The flux ring only works on one side of the equation, really it is a fancy windscreen when you get right down to it. To really make it work well you would want a flux ring looking thing inside the pot which would be a total disaster to clean. The better way to get heat transfer to the water is to have a wide pot with lots of surface for both ends of the equation and a flame pattern for the stove that makes optimal transfer for the pot bottom you have.
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-09-2005, 21:41
Well really if you think about it, you would want equal surface area for the contact of heat to the pot and pot to the water. The flux ring only works on one side of the equation, really it is a fancy windscreen when you get right down to it. To really make it work well you would want a flux ring looking thing inside the pot which would be a total disaster to clean. The better way to get heat transfer to the water is to have a wide pot with lots of surface for both ends of the equation and a flame pattern for the stove that makes optimal transfer for the pot bottom you have.
for the most part, yeah. Natural convection compensates a lot for not having a flux ring inside the cup. But, yeah, essentiall the flux "increases" the effective surface area of the pot. Wide pot does the same.
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-09-2005, 21:43
http://www.whiteblaze.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/8926/sort/1/cat/500/page/1
Again, I am consistently amazed by what you make on a regular basis...
gardenville
10-09-2005, 22:39
Again, I am consistently amazed by what you make on a regular basis...
Thanks, but I can not claim credit for this one. There is a group of Japanese "small" stove makers that are doing some really interesting things with small stoves made out of all kinds of cans and other stuff. This was made by one of them.
I did make two of my own "Flex Rings" when the JetBoil first came out. They worked but at a price in extra weight that wasn't worth it. My current alcohol stoves can boil 16oz of water in a static test in 4 minutes and weighs about .25oz.
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-10-2005, 08:25
Thanks, but I can not claim credit for this one. There is a group of Japanese "small" stove makers that are doing some really interesting things with small stoves made out of all kinds of cans and other stuff. This was made by one of them.
I did make two of my own "Flex Rings" when the JetBoil first came out. They worked but at a price in extra weight that wasn't worth it. My current alcohol stoves can boil 16oz of water in a static test in 4 minutes and weighs about .25oz.
Oh! Was it part of Yusio's (?) and the others over on BPL? They've made some crazy cool stuff.
boomerang
10-10-2005, 15:16
I used a JetBoil on my thruhike this year, and have no real complaints. It was "in the ballpark" of anyone's weight related to stove, pots, and fuel. One canister lasted me two weeks, so I didn't have to resupply fuel every time I was in town like my alcohol stove buddies. It was definitely faster, on average, than other stoves at the shelter in terms of boiling and getting hot food in my belly.
My real problem with it concerned the narrow base...if you didn't watch it, water/soup was bubbling over and it was hard to shut the durn thing off (with boiling liquid coating your hands). The other problem is its price - it is much more expensive than alcohol stoves (even store-bought stoves).
The lighter mechanism lasted me all the way to Maine, where it began "missing" one out of every four ignitions. I returned it to REI after my thru, and got a new Jetboil after my hike. Not too shabby.
So, if you're anal about cooking gear, then JetBoil might not be for you, based on weight, etc. and your own gear hang-ups. If you choose to worry about other things (or not worry at all), then JetBoil is a competitive offering to any cooking system out there. The only "real" barrier is price...but maybe you'll receive one as a gift! :)
Stale Cracker
10-10-2005, 15:54
Has any body heard anything about the new MSR multi fuel offering due out this spring? Rumors that I have heard say it knocks off the jet boil design but is multi fuel compatible and has a new gewgaw that eliminates the need to set the thing on fire to prime it when using liquid fuel.
SGT Rock
10-10-2005, 15:59
I haven't seen that one yet, but I know they were working on a stove that used ceramics instead of a pump for capillary flow of the fuel. I think that the design could be a multi-fuel since the ceramics wouldn't care what fuel goes through it. We are talking about the ability to have a canister fuel weight without the re-supply issues canisters or the pomp and jet clogging problems of gas. The only thing I saw bad in the prototype was they were over-building it with a special pot and such like the JetBoil. This may be the stove you are talking about.
http://outside.away.com/outside/gear/gearguy/or_2004wrap_1.html
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-10-2005, 17:42
I saw a better pic someplace... looked like a finished model...
ah... found it (http://zenstoves.net/Petrol.htm#CapillaryStoves)...
SGT Rock
10-10-2005, 17:46
I would prefer to have a military model if that is what the final product. simple and light. Let me pick my pot, winscreen, etc.
Just Jeff
10-10-2005, 17:50
I used my JetBoil in ~32F yesterday and it was slow going...the flame didn't get as big as it normally does. Well, slow relative to what the JB usually does. It was still faster than the other folks' cannister stoves. I suspect it was because I let the cannister get cold after my first boil that morning.
I also cracked the lid like people have posted in other threads...I guess it usually happens in cold weather. Every so often while drinking from it, the tea would run down my chin! I think JB replaces it for free, though...I'm gonna email them today.
Lanthar Mandragoran
10-10-2005, 18:02
I would prefer to have a military model if that is what the final product. simple and light. Let me pick my pot, winscreen, etc.
absolutely agree
Just Jeff
10-10-2005, 19:37
This was on the JetBoil FAQ:
http://www.jetboil.com/Contact/FAQ
===========
Why is aluminum the best material for cookware?
Aluminum's heat conductivity is far superior to both titanium and stainless steel. This conductivity is critical to Jetboil's speed and fuel efficiency. Stainless steel, while durable, is heavy. Titanium is expensive, inefficient, and scorches food easily because it is a poor distributor of heat.
SGT Rock
10-10-2005, 20:07
Yes it is true that aluminum has better heat related properties. That is one reason the Vago Ti stove is sort of a dog. In pot applications, the idea is to have optimal transfer between the stove and the fire, titanium can be made VERY thin compared to an aluminum pot and have better strength at a lower weight. And at that point the insulation properties of titanium don't make a difference because of the lack of enough material to make a difference. Of course the problem can be burnt food at that point.
I'm happy with Ti pots. I've done some low tech tests of similar weight aluminum and ti and have found that on the average they perform about the same. But with ti it cleans easy and doesn't dent. The 4.01 ounce Evernew works very well although lately I have been hiking with a Heineken beer can for a pot.
Just Jeff
10-10-2005, 20:14
That's a good point, Rock.
I think it's also important to remember that people who care that much about the weight difference are only a niche in the JetBoil market. Reconfiguring the production process to use titanium may simply not be profitable for them...apparently that's what they think, anyway.
SGT Rock
10-10-2005, 20:21
Oh, I totally agree. That is why if I were going to do a stove like that I would choose an F1 or a Pocket Rocket - I would want to be able to set up the whole system for what I want and what works for me. I look at it the same way I see backpacking gear - I mean who really wants to buy an entire backpacking kit set up from the floor up?
Of course if they made their stove with titanium, it would change all sorts of things about the whole Flux Ring and how that integrates anyway. The system is painted into a corner unless you buy a frying pan adapter and switch to your own pot. But then again, if you want to do that you ought to just get a regular canister stove that is lighter and cheaper. Although it might be interesting to use a JetBoil cup on a Pocket Rocket and see what happens to performance.
Just Jeff
10-10-2005, 20:32
Agree about buying from the ground up. For me, the convenience and speed outweighs the weight penalty, though.
Sounds like you're ready to start a new test: the JB cup on the Pocket Rocket! I think the burn pattern might make an important difference, though...the JB burns in a small ring in the middle rather than spreading flame around the pot. I'm not familiar enough with the Pocket Rocket to say for sure, but I suspect the flames would burn up the sides of the JB cup and melt the cozy.
SGT Rock
10-10-2005, 20:34
Well I would more like try it with an F1 because of the weight and the reviews I have read about the perfomance already. As to the flame going up the pot, well that is what the valve is there for :D
Just Jeff
10-10-2005, 23:03
True, but the burn pattern is different. Turning the valve down so much that the flames stay inside might not provide enough heat. But that's just speculation on my part...I could be totally off. Would definitely be a good test, though.
Anyone out there have a JB and another cannister stove that can test it real quick?