View Full Version : Which Sole Material Has the Best Traction?
Tron-Life
07-31-2014, 17:03
Just curious as I was talking to somebody about vibram being slippery. Actually, all the shoes I have been getting are really slippery on rocks and metal and they are all vibram. Does NB make a non-vibram trailrunner? Anyway, let's talk about sole material and their benefits and drawbacks.
Another Kevin
07-31-2014, 18:22
Best traction for what? If you're talking about trying to use friction holds on slabby rock, you most likely want approach shoes with sticky climbing rubber. Somthing like these. (http://www.backcountry.com/la-sportiva-xplorer-shoe-mens) But those certainly won't hold up to the rigors of a long hike. You need heavier lugs for things like mud and wet roots. (If you get approach shoes, get them tighter than your trail runners, wear thin socks and lace them snug. They need to move with your foot, and you need to be able to feel the rock and use them for edging and smearing.) If you're doing more crack climbing and boulder scrambling, regular trail runners are actually pretty good, slippery as they feel. A common beginner's mistake is to hug the rock too closely alternatively. You want to keep your center of gravity right over your boot.
For what it's worth, I scrambled this with some confidence in NB trail runners and found the traction adequate. (NOT my picture: I include it from http://zeelemons.wordpress.com/2013/05/11/to-the-crack-and-back/. I was paying far too much attention to my climbing to have any to spare for photography.)
http://zeelemons.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/scramble.jpg?w=500&h=665
One trick for more secure scrambling is to carry some sort of little brush to clean the gunk off your soles when starting a tough scramble. They're a lot grippier if they don't have clay and other materials in the spaces between the lugs, and have rubber exposed to the rock. Even the broken-off head of a junk toothbrush will help clear away the stuff (it also makes a nice nail brush for when you wash your hands).
If you're desperate for grip there's an old climbers' trick you can try: squirt a tiny bit of stove alcohol on the rubber to soften it. It will surely shorten the life of the soles, but will give you a sticky grip for about 15-20 minutes until the rubber dries out again.
If there's ice about, there's no substitute for sharp pointy things. For reasonably civilized ice, I have a pair of Kahtoola microspikes. For really steep scrambles that are iced over, there's no substitute for strap-on crampons (if you wear pac boots or other flexible boots) or step-in ones (if you wear rigid mountaineering boots), and an ice axe or pair of ice tools. Less steep snowy slopes need snowshoes with aggressive crampons built in. But for everything more aggressive than microspikes you also need specialized instruction to use them safely.
Traveler
07-31-2014, 18:31
For what its worth, I just had a pair of Asolo boots resoled with Vibram and purchased a new pair with the factory vibram soles. The new boots grip much better on surfaces like very light moss or algae on rocks when it is damp or dry. The resoled boots are not as reliable a grip on similar surfaces. The tread design on the resoled boots is far different than that of the factory sole. I think tread design is a major component over the material. I do note with these Asolo boots as the tread wears down, they get less sure footed once the boot gets over 900 miles on them.
Tron-Life
07-31-2014, 18:42
I should have been more specific. I'm looking for trailrunners for normal hiking during the shoulder season with some expectation of very light snow and freezing rain. In another thread I mentioned hiking through the Whites so they will be used for that.
We just read about that tragic fall in the Catskills, and I don't want to be a statistic. I use vibram soled trailrunners but they are really slippery. Shoes have been a nightmare for me since Montrail stopped making the Badrocks, though I think those were vibram too.
I didn't want to talk about shoes or different types specifically, just the adhesive properties of different materials used for shoe soles like rubber, vibram, etc.
Tron-Life
07-31-2014, 18:50
" I think tread design is a major component over the material."
I vehemently and respectfully disagree with you sir! I find that the tread of the sole matters very little compared to the adhesive quality of the material in question. Climbing shoes are, after all, almost always flat which increases surface area toaching the rock. For walking shoe the tread can be very modest and still work well, or vise versa. My shoes that are slippery have VERY aggressive treads but don't grip worth a damn!
Traveler
07-31-2014, 19:12
" I think tread design is a major component over the material."
I vehemently and respectfully disagree with you sir! I find that the tread of the sole matters very little compared to the adhesive quality of the material in question. Climbing shoes are, after all, almost always flat which increases surface area toaching the rock. For walking shoe the tread can be very modest and still work well, or vise versa. My shoes that are slippery have VERY aggressive treads but don't grip worth a damn!
Thats just my experience, one boot grips very well with Vibram, the other identical pair don't with Vibram. The difference is in the tread design, which leads me to believe its a major component along with adhesion qualities. There may be different materials used in the Vibram soles that have different adhesion qualities, but that would be where the function of design and different materials meet.
Tron-Life
07-31-2014, 20:44
Thats just my experience, one boot grips very well with Vibram, the other identical pair don't with Vibram. The difference is in the tread design, which leads me to believe its a major component along with adhesion qualities. There may be different materials used in the Vibram soles that have different adhesion qualities, but that would be where the function of design and different materials meet.
This is why I am trying to figure this out. I've had Vibram shoes that had great traction, the Badrocks, and ones that were not so great, which is basically everything else and I found that tread didn't really matter that much. I'm trying to find out what that key variable is and sole material seems like the best place to start.
Does anyone have thoughts on rubber vs vibram? As far as I know, rubber grips better but is less durable and does not absorb shock as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I though there was a longer list of materials than just these two but my mind is drawing a blank.
Shoe/boot/sole inventory:
Merrill-
(2) Moab Ventilator/Vibram
(2) Radius/Vibram
(1) Radius II/generic knockoff of the original Radius Vibram soles.
Piveta 5/Original Vibram Roccia soles
Asolo 520/Modern Vibram
(2) Teva sandals/Terradactyl soles
(2) Keen Newport H2 sandals/Keen soles
No falls that I remember in conditions from dry granite (Enchanted Rock) to snow/ice/wet ice/mud/etc. in Kazakhstan.
Yesterday I "hiked" about a half mile round trip in a mountain creek filled with teetering/tottering/mossy/slimy rocks, sandy bottom, wet sloping mossy rocks. All the usual fun stuff you find in a creek. Water depth varied from wet rocks to ~2' deep. Moderate current. My granddaughter wore Tevas, grandson in generic water sock shoes and I wore Keen Newport H2 sandals. At no time did we loose our footing or fall.
Rubber vs. Vibram? Are Vibram soles not made of rubber? I have observed that over the decades, Vibram soles have changed with the times and applications. Lighter, thinner, more flexible for trail runners. They still grip.
I wish I could help. I have not had any problems over several decades and changing materials and fashions and a multitude of conditions and terrain.
Good luck.
Ps: one or two well placed, properly used hiking sticks will save your bacon when you put a foot down on a surface slicker than greased glass.
Wayne
upstream
07-31-2014, 21:56
Innov8 and Icebug both use various rubber compositions and tread patterns for various traction situations, check them out. Icebug also makes spiky shoes for orienteering in winter. Both are European, traction shoes don't seem to have caught on in the US.
Meriadoc
07-31-2014, 21:58
For clarification: Vibram is a company. They make soles from different compounds. The basic premise of any sole is this:
The softer, the stickier, and the quicker it will wear out.
The harder, the longer it will last.
In my experience the design on the sole matters in three primary ways:
(1) How it sheds mud, dirt, and rocks.
(2) How it behaves when wet (think of siping).
(3) Contact area in the major wear spots (like the ball) for friction gripping.
I have had extremely aggressively treaded shoes that slipped a lot. I have had shoes with almost nothing except siping that never ever let go. But a completely flat sole does not perform as well in dirty and muddy conditions. Thus, there are tradeoffs.
On a lot of exposed rock I care more about the rubber compound (that it is softer and sticky).
On a muddy trail I care more about the tread that it will bite into the mud and release that mud when I lift my foot.
I choose to go with sticky rubber, moderate tread, and careful walking/foot placement. The careful walking reduces stress on my joints and slows the wearing down of my shoes (I'm guilty of being a minimalist).
Meriadoc
07-31-2014, 22:05
On the practical side of things, I can generally tell if something will grip well. It's a matter of how the rubber compound feels. I rub my fingers on it. I press in with my fingernails. And then I test them on an incline. I can generally tell fairly well how they will behave. The one thing that is sometimes still hit or miss for me is how it will behave on a smooth wet surface.
And for ice, I go back to tread on bicycle tires for this one: cutaway tread is better than aggressive outward tread. (There is a term for the tread I am thinking of but I am not recalling it right now.) I think it is because there is more contact area with the cutaway tread and the cutaways still allow any ice or slush to fall out.
Another Kevin
07-31-2014, 22:30
I should have been more specific. I'm looking for trailrunners for normal hiking during the shoulder season with some expectation of very light snow and freezing rain. In another thread I mentioned hiking through the Whites so they will be used for that.
We just read about that tragic fall in the Catskills, and I don't want to be a statistic. I use vibram soled trailrunners but they are really slippery. Shoes have been a nightmare for me since Montrail stopped making the Badrocks, though I think those were vibram too.
I didn't want to talk about shoes or different types specifically, just the adhesive properties of different materials used for shoe soles like rubber, vibram, etc.
If you want more grip on the rock than trail runners offer, you might want to look into 'approach shoes,' as I said earlier. These aren't actual climbing boots, and they're a good bit more robust so that they'll stand up to some hiking as a climber is approaching the wall. They're less durable than trail runners, but I think that simply comes with having stickier soles - the stickier rubber abrades faster.
If there's any chance of freezing rain in the forecast and I'm going anywhere on hard rock or near the timber line, I bring microspikes. They're just the thing for the light snow and ice, where crampons and ice axe would be overkill. I won't chance even a trivial amount of ice barebooted no matter what the soles are made of. Microspikes are what kept me upright when we gt a sudden ice storm on the trip shown in the pictures below. I'm the hiker in green, with the blaze orange pack cover. Three of us (including the guy behind the camera) were wearing microspikes. The guy in blue was wearing screw shoes instead - trail runners with #6 x 3/8 hex head sheet metal screws driven into the lugs. The hex heads function like the studs on studded tires. He stayed upright, too.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-qTdQfCvbUcY/UsGqF39e8pI/AAAAAAAAZYU/C0NalmQmgtI/w378-h567-no/DSC_5028.JPG
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-Htr2oG_G7UE/UsGqDOEcUQI/AAAAAAAAZXk/pV5f_jUx3lA/w705-h470-no/DSC_5013.JPG
For highly technical rocky terrain backpacking like the Daks, Whites, Gunks etc under the conditions you speak of(ice, snow, wet, mud, wet exposed roots, wood/stone trail construction, granite slabs, slides, down hikes, etc) in trail runners I certainly would be considering things like tread patterns, lugs, outsole lugs, being extremely mindful of footing, gait, and a host of other shoe characteristics and hiking techniques that go well beyond just sole material.
rocketsocks
08-01-2014, 02:49
...here's some interesting reading on different rubbers.
http://www.stealthrubber.com/
rocketsocks
08-01-2014, 02:52
...here's some interesting reading on different rubbers.
http://www.stealthrubber.com/...also this about that.
http://fiveten.com/history
rocketsocks
08-01-2014, 03:00
...here's some interesting reading on different rubbers.
http://www.stealthrubber.com/
...also this about that.
http://fiveten.com/history
Tron
I'm not suggesting this is what your looking for, just some info on the evolution, and as a jumping off point. Like the quest for the best venting rain gear, we all are lookin' for the best stickiest traction we can find...tread pattern also has a lot to do with that, smooth or lugged, are we hiking on rocks or mud...finding that happy medium and a one shoe fits all is the big $64,000 dollar question that not only we hikers ask ourselves, but the company's that make the shoes/boots we wear ask themselves too...good luck.
I recently purchased a pair of Vivobarefoot shoes for hiking. The soles are very flexible, which I thought would be great for traction while hiking. I tried them out on the AT Sugarloaf MT area and found that after hiking 5 miles the bottoms of my feet were killing me from being over flexed. It seems that I solved one problem and created another by not having enough stiffness in the sole.
rocketsocks
08-01-2014, 08:11
I recently purchased a pair of Vivobarefoot shoes for hiking. The soles are very flexible, which I thought would be great for traction while hiking. I tried them out on the AT Sugarloaf MT area and found that after hiking 5 miles the bottoms of my feet were killing me from being over flexed. It seems that I solved one problem and created another by not having enough stiffness in the sole.
I wouldn't give up on em just yet, unless you have underlying issues, you likely just over did it on this one. Start slower using them intermittent around town, and build up to them. It is likely more your feet that don't have enough chutzpah yet.
Another Kevin
08-01-2014, 12:57
For highly technical rocky terrain backpacking like the Daks, Whites, Gunks etc under the conditions you speak of(ice, snow, wet, mud, wet exposed roots, wood/stone trail construction, granite slabs, slides, down hikes, etc) in trail runners I certainly would be considering things like tread patterns, lugs, outsole lugs, being extremely mindful of footing, gait, and a host of other shoe characteristics and hiking techniques that go well beyond just sole material.
Are you talking to me or the original poster? If it's me, we're in violent agreement. I do what you call "highly technical rocky terrain backpacking." and I'm singing a different verse of the same song.
Another Kevin
08-01-2014, 13:09
I'm not suggesting this is what your looking for, just some info on the evolution, and as a jumping off point. Like the quest for the best venting rain gear, we all are lookin' for the best stickiest traction we can find...tread pattern also has a lot to do with that, smooth or lugged, are we hiking on rocks or mud...finding that happy medium and a one shoe fits all is the big $64,000 dollar question that not only we hikers ask ourselves, but the company's that make the shoes/boots we wear ask themselves too...good luck.
And for the sort of technical hiking that the original poster is talking about, you have to bring the shoes that suit the season, which makes shoulder season particularly challenging. In any case, the Five Ten approach shoes that you linked to (or the similar pair of La Sportiva that I linked to earlier) seem to be better candidates to replace the Montrail Badrocks than anything that's labeled a 'trail runner'.
Sarcasm the elf
08-01-2014, 13:27
I recently purchased a pair of Vivobarefoot shoes for hiking. The soles are very flexible, which I thought would be great for traction while hiking. I tried them out on the AT Sugarloaf MT area and found that after hiking 5 miles the bottoms of my feet were killing me from being over flexed. It seems that I solved one problem and created another by not having enough stiffness in the sole.
Generally speaking, it takes a long time to condition your body to get used to walking without the artificial support of modern shoes. If you switch over to a barefoot shoe or barefoot running, it can take weeks or months for all of the underused stabilizer muscles in your feet and legs to strenghten up properly. I use and love the merril barefoot shoes, but it took a long time before I was able to proficiently run in them.
I have a pair of Reebok's " Trail Runner's " that's soled with a thing called Duraride and they are AWESOME. I personnaly have never had a problem with Vibram soled shoes.
This is why I am trying to figure this out. I've had Vibram shoes that had great traction, the Badrocks, and ones that were not so great, which is basically everything else and I found that tread didn't really matter that much. I'm trying to find out what that key variable is and sole material seems like the best place to start.
Does anyone have thoughts on rubber vs vibram? As far as I know, rubber grips better but is less durable and does not absorb shock as well. Please correct me if I'm wrong. I though there was a longer list of materials than just these two but my mind is drawing a blank.
Traction in a running shoe in a hiking/backpacking situation on the type of terrain (The White Mountains) and in the mixed conditions you describe is not just a factor of sole composition. It may be that you're attempting to exactly compare dry climbing shoe sole compositions on various rock surfaces use with this type of hiking which may lead to some confusion.
Again Vibram is a company that not only makes various shoes but also various different sole designs(compositions, treads, etc) so don't assume they are all equal in performance.
If you liked the Montrail Badrocks so much why don't you FULLY investigate what you think made their traction so great? From what I can recall the Montrail Badrocks used a Gryptonite composition sole utilizing multi-directional lugs for better traction in wet and dry use. As Montrail says the sole design had 'Deflecting lugs for cushioning and digging lugs at perimeter for traction for up and down hills' They describe Gryptonite as 'Sticky rubber compound engineered for optimal performance with a combination of traction and durability on both wet and dry surfaces'. Check out the tread patterns on the Badrocks sole. There are several models(WO w/ the Outdry, mids, non wp, diffrent yrs etc). Montrail still uses Gryptonite on other trail runner models. Try to match what you had. That may help reducing the various factors that go into your traction question.
fiddlehead
08-01-2014, 22:21
This is a very good question by the OP.
I usually judge which shoe I buy by it's weight and tread design.
It's nice when it's a brand name I like although they seem to always discontinue the best models. (probably don't make much money on a shoe that lasts twice as long as another )
Anyway, it would be nice if there was a way to measure the traction efficiency of a sole on wet rocks.
And then each company would list this measurement on their website or shoebox or whatever.
However, we, as long distance trekkers, are probably one of the few who care.
Does anyone know if this dilemma comes up in a trail running forum?
Clarification on Vibram, company and products...
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vibram
http://www.vibram.com/index.php/us/
All the best on your hike in the Whites. Wish I could be there.
Wayne
Dogwood,
The Badrocks sound perfect. I want a pair. Any clue as to a similar replacement?
AK: 5.10 brings back long lost memories. I did not know that they were still around. Thanks.
Wayne
Traction of trail running shoes in mixed wet, muddy, icy, slipper roots, slippery rock faces/slabs/boulders, and light snow depth conditions on various terrain(compacted soils, granite slabs) like might be encountered on the AT through The Whites and overall New Hampshire and like Another Kevin depivted is discussed on running sites but from my experience most often not from a sole only composition perspective but rather from the combined perspective of tread design/tread pattern(or altering it through add on removable traction enhancements or dedicated trail runners for these conditions - winter trail runners, Icebugs w/ carbide tips for example,), running characteristics, etc. Although, there are trail runners that are said to be good from the door to the trail and back there are compromises somewhere happening. I personally wouldn't want to be backpacking/overnight hiking in the Whites in the conditions Tron described with street runners that aren't going to provide the necessary traction.
Venchka, I'm glad what I threw out there helped but your question is probably best answered by someone who knows more than me seeing the bigger picture but also aware of the details including the details of your foot characteristics, types of hiking you most often do, personal biomechanics, etc. I'm not a running shoe expert by any means. Montrail does offer Gryptonite soled trail runners though in that narrow scope of an answer to the OP's question. Check out their site. I would also review running sites and patronize hardcore professional running stores/or those outfitters with knowledgeable hiking shoe staff THAT WILL SPEND TIME WITH YOU. This can really help a hiker identify proper shoes for their hiking. Trail running websites offer a host of valuable info that can easily be applied to backpacking. Using trail runners for hiking is the direction that things are going(have gone?) too. This may seem like going to extremes at first to many hikers but IMHO getting the shoes right is integral to happy hiking.
Tron-Life
08-03-2014, 00:10
Tron
I'm not suggesting this is what your looking for, just some info on the evolution, and as a jumping off point. Like the quest for the best venting rain gear, we all are lookin' for the best stickiest traction we can find...tread pattern also has a lot to do with that, smooth or lugged, are we hiking on rocks or mud...finding that happy medium and a one shoe fits all is the big $64,000 dollar question that not only we hikers ask ourselves, but the company's that make the shoes/boots we wear ask themselves too...good luck.
This is almost exactly what I was looking for, thanks.
Tron-Life
08-03-2014, 00:20
Dogwood,
The Badrocks sound perfect. I want a pair. Any clue as to a similar replacement?
AK: 5.10 brings back long lost memories. I did not know that they were still around. Thanks.
Wayne
You could try looking for Montrail Rockridge, the precursor for the Badrocks, or the Fair Havens. They are both great shoes but are too narrow at the top, which is really annoying as they are almost perfect in every way. I have a size 14 pair of Rockridges if anyone wants, but I'm probably the only freak out here with feet that huge. If anyone's interested pm me.
Maybe not. :) 14 4E
Good luck in you search Tron. It was a valid question. I'd like to know what sole material composition I should be looking for in those conditions myself if it will make a significant difference in traction and various sole materials are available to meet those conditions. Why don't you ping some shoe companies making wet or winter weather trail runners.
Just curious as I was talking to somebody about vibram being slippery. Actually, all the shoes I have been getting are really slippery on rocks and metal and they are all vibram. Does NB make a non-vibram trailrunner? Anyway, let's talk about sole material and their benefits and drawbacks.
I wouldn't call vibram slippery, it's decidedly more sticky than it's predecessors (though the amount of friction changes drastically on wet surfaces which is where people tend to get in trouble) it also wears out faster than it's predecessors. Now you can get even stickier rubbers but they'll wear out even faster.
If you want an incredibly sticky sole you could get these: http://www.backcountry.com/five-ten-guide-tennie-approach-shoe-mens
....but they'll wear out if you so much as look at them funny.
bigcranky
08-05-2014, 13:57
We just did the Long Trail in Inov8 Roclites, which have an outer sole of sticky rubber. They stuck like glue to very sloping rock faces, more so when dry and less so when wet, but they sure stuck. However, I could see the soles wearing out every day, as the soft rubber was worn away by hiking. In general, harder rubber compounds are less sticky but last longer.
Kerosene
08-05-2014, 20:17
I ordered a pair of the Inov8 RocLites earlier this week for my Maine section hike in late Sept.
I personally do not like Vibram soles and steer away from shoe companies that use them. I hiked half of the AT last year and loved my pair of Wenger approach shoes. I now have a pair of Mammut approach shoes and have been very satisfied with their grip and durability. Approach shoes are the way to go for me. I find them comfortable, durable and their traction is superior.
I personally do not like Vibram soles and steer away from shoe companies that use them. I hiked half of the AT last year and loved my pair of Wenger approach shoes. I now have a pair of Mammut approach shoes and have been very satisfied with their grip and durability. Approach shoes are the way to go for me. I find them comfortable, durable and their traction is superior.
If I knew where to find Wenger and Mammut shoes I would give them consideration. So far, the only European descendant shoes that I have access to are Lowa, Scarpa and Salewa. The Salewa Firetail and Wildfire look right in the stores, but I have no experience with either.
Mrs. Wayne and I hiked up and down Rough Ridge yesterday in our Vibram soled Moab Ventilators without incident. Wet. Mud. Grit. Slime. Steep angled slabs. No poles. No problems.
Wayne
bigcranky
08-06-2014, 09:49
I ordered a pair of the Inov8 RocLites earlier this week for my Maine section hike in late Sept.
I was actually pretty surprised when my wife cleaned the shoes after our hike - they're in better shape than I expected, and I can probably get the rest of the hiking season out of them.
Note that the Roclites are very light and flexible, but you probably knew that :) We both used aftermarket insoles, Superfeet Green for me and Sole insoles for her. (I really like the Sole, which I'd never seen before until the outfitter in Manchester Center. They appear to have a better heel cup and arch than the Superfeet - I'm going to try a pair.) The insoles helped with arch support and some small rock protection.
Just Bill
08-06-2014, 11:20
Saying Vibram sucks is like saying you don't like Michelin tires. It's just a brand- with dozens upon dozens of versions for different conditions. Racing slicks or Monster truck mud paddles- B.F. Goodrich makes em both.
Otherwise- great thread with lots of good info.
Stickiest rubber- climbing/aproach shoes. Worst rubber- heavy stuff in boots.
Open rock- minimal tread/no lugs. Thick mud- decent lugs, aggressive tread.
Everything else is something in between.
Best rubber- Trojan.
Personally- Regardless of the exact composition, a more minimal, flexible shoe that gives good ground feel seems best to me.
Midwest, Mid-Atlantic, Southern trails- I wear road shoes. Up North- Trail runners.
Another Kevin
08-07-2014, 09:25
Stickiest rubber- climbing/aproach shoes. Worst rubber- heavy stuff in boots.
Open rock- minimal tread/no lugs. Thick mud- decent lugs, aggressive tread.
Everything else is something in between.
Worst rubber? Least sticky, granted. But boots with aggressive lugs and harder rubber do better in mud and snow. And the tread doesn't wear out near as fast. I'd say that the heavy boot rubber is simply "unfit for the purpose." (This is assuming that the boots are well made - of course there's bad rubber out there.)
I do a few miles of roadwalking daily - trying not to lose ALL of my conditioning. I wear shoes that the manufacturer labels "walking shoes" rather than trail runners. The soles have very little grip indeed - and would be unsafe on a tough trail - but they last. I find that when I retire a pair of "walking shoes", it's usually because the midsole has collapsed or I've worn through the linings. This is on pavement that would eat the tread of my trail runners.
All my off-pavement walking is Up North. As conditions go from bad to worse I shift from trail runners (I like a decent rock plate, because the rocks here are sharp), to big clunky leather boots, to even bigger and clunkier pac boots. The last almost always have microspikes, snowshoes or crampons attached, according to the snow conditions. For me, at least, I find that "hiking boots" are crowded out in the middle. By the time things are nasty enough that I don't feel safe in trail runners, I want full leather.
If I switch focus from the Catskills to the Adirondacks, I'll need a pair of approach shoes. Most of the scrambling in the Cats is boulder scrambling and crack climbing, because it's all sandstone. Lots of edging and manteling. In the 'Daks, there's a lot more scrambling up slabby granite rockslides, needing to use friction holds, and you need a shoe suitable for smearing.
rocketsocks
08-07-2014, 10:57
The rubber (Vibram) on my Merrell "Perimeters" GTX is quite sticky and allows me to scramble around one of my favorite bouldering spots when day hiking.
28013
Just Bill
08-07-2014, 12:09
Kev-
I grew up hiking in boots. I not so fondly recall the hourly stop for "sock check", the 10-60 minutes a day with the "lug stick" digging out mud/rocks/crud. The not so infrequent toe kicking of trees. And the eeirliy wonky on the knee- foot flick.
Framing houses, I work in a lot of mud.
Point being, the good old waffle stompers with their hard rubbers, aggressive lugs, and deep tread just hold mud and debris. Eventually you're simply walking around in your own personal mud slick that tugs not so subtly on your knees each time you pick up your foot. I found myself using the claws on my hammer to pry muck out more often than nails. If a tread can't "throw" mud, then it just becomes a hunk of trail. IMO, none of the heavy tread boots beat this issue. The only thing they do well- is stay on your feet.
You may occasionally step out of your shoe with a low top- but you won't accumulate a 3lb crust along the way. You can also get a trail runner type shoe in a high top of course.
Not much microspiking in my neck of the woods- but as they work regardless of tread type or shoe design...
So, Yar- fer hiking in damn near any realistic regular conditions I can think of encountering when backpacking- the good ol' hard rubber, deep, aggressive lug sole is the worst.
After that- you nailed it. When it's really serious out, wither for warmth or mechanical attachments- a good pair of "real" boots is often the solution. No need to mess with the stuff in the middle.
Much to your credit- most folks will not take on the scrambling you do; a specialized application that a good approach shoe solves nicely.
This is my "aggressive" tread of choice for the serious stuff-
28016
Another Kevin
08-07-2014, 21:10
After that- you nailed it. When it's really serious out, wither for warmth or mechanical attachments- a good pair of "real" boots is often the solution. No need to mess with the stuff in the middle.
Much to your credit- most folks will not take on the scrambling you do; a specialized application that a good approach shoe solves nicely.
I think we're in "violent agreement" here. We may have subtle disagreements on where "really serious" begins, but that's about it.
I don't know about the scrambling. I'd say most of it's no worse than the tougher bits of the AT or the LT in northern New England. Typical North Country fall-line trails. Think Mansfield, Beaver Brook, the Wildcats, or Mahoosuc Arm. Although sometimes I don't have the benefit of having had a trail blazer mark the way for me, so routefinding comes into play as well.
I don't have approach shoes at the moment, because in the Cats I don't need them, and the rough sandstone would trash them pretty quickly. As I said, if I shift focus to the 'Daks with their slick granite, then I'll be wanting them. And one of these days I do want to try Mount Colden up from Avalanche Pass (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y5_lbQZJwQ) - and that one is tough scrambling. The waterfall is supposed to be the crux, but the approach shoes would surely also be needed on the exit from the ravine onto the smooth rock of a recent slide. Nothing but friction holds.
http://photos3.meetupstatic.com/photos/event/7/9/a/d/600_10951149.jpeg
http://www.adirondackalmanack.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Phil-on-slide.jpg
Just Bill
08-08-2014, 18:17
AK- Blah, blah, Blur!
JB- Blah, Blur, Blah!
Ak- Blah, (fancy text in obscure language), good pics
JB- Blur, native americans, crappy pic.
JB- Blar? Ak- Blar! JB&AK- Blurp Blah!
We seem to find ourselves in violent agreement often...:sun
No complaints from me, hopefully all that hot wind blowing around helps folks along the way:D
Tron-Life
08-09-2014, 06:44
"And one of these days I do want to try Mount Colden up from Avalanche Pass"
(https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3y5_lbQZJwQ)I love that part of the ADK High Peaks! A few years ago, I submitted my first peak there on Mt Adams which is a pretty decent mountain for beginners. I had so much fun that I hiked the Calamity Brook Trail to Lake Colden, which is incredible, and attempted to summit Colden, but had to come down just before the summit because the teeth of my cheap snowshoes got flattened by steeping on a frozen log. It was kinda scary coming down, and involved alot of slipping and sliding, but it was alot of fun! Good luck on your trip.
I miss going up there but it's too expensive for me to drive and I live so close to the AT. I find that I enjoy the AT experience more but when I hike in the ADKs I feel like I've been transported to Jurassic Park or something.
As far as sole material, I did some research on Gryptonite and found that most people find it provides excellent traction when wet but wears away quickly.
It's hard to find good data on this stuff as all the info out there is advertising claims hyped up to get you to buy their shoes.
I really looking for info in the format that rocketsocks posted in the link below, but just with info on trail shoes/runners and not climbing shoes from a specific company
http://www.stealthrubber.com/
I found this on Vibrams website but I'm not sure I trust their info:
http://www.vibram.com/index.php/us/B2B/Technology/Mescole
This information is helpful but I wish I could find a neutral information source that compares and contrasts ALL types of sole materials.
All of the data in the world and online reading will not prevent an incorrect step and subsequent face plant. Or worse.
Since this thread began, I have paid attention to my own footwear and found a few online reviews of approach shoes. Vibram is the overall leader. European footwear companies lead in approach shoes.
How well they are used is still operator dependent.
For the record, my family has been scrambling around NC for the past two weeks. Vibram soles dominate: Merrell and Chaco followed by Teva and Keen water sandals. A lot of wet, slimy, slippery rocky terrain. No falls. No injuries. No worries.
Wayne
Tron-Life
08-09-2014, 07:45
All of the data in the world and online reading will not prevent an incorrect step and subsequent face plant. Or worse.
Since this thread began, I have paid attention to my own footwear and found a few online reviews of approach shoes. Vibram is the overall leader. European footwear companies lead in approach shoes.
How well they are used is still operator dependent.
For the record, my family has been scrambling around NC for the past two weeks. Vibram soles dominate: Merrell and Chaco followed by Teva and Keen water sandals. A lot of wet, slimy, slippery rocky terrain. No falls. No injuries. No worries.
Wayne
Yeah, initially I thought Vibram was a type of rubber and not a brand that makes different types of sole materials. I was also mistaken about the Badrocks as they are made with Gryptonite. As experience is a very wide variable, I rather focus on materials - footing/technique can be discussed elsewhere.
Tron-Life
08-09-2014, 07:47
Venchka,
Did you see what type of Vibram soles your shoes had? I was looking at the VIBRAMŽ Megagrip which looks likewhat I need.
I hear you about the deeply lugged waffle stompers clogging up in some types of conditions - mud such as clayey soils, wet snow/ice common back east, or catching debris like small sticks, rocks, nails, etc. Those types of shoes are basically designed for walking though not running or in some people's situations walking around muddy, wet, possibly icy job sites. However, the OP asked specifically about trail runners - hence the name, shoes designed to umm run trails and their sole composition. The lugs and tread on trail runners is very different! Different activity. Different design -walking verses trail running. Tread designs and lugs on trail runners designed for running in mixed conditions, as the OP stated he would be hiking -wet, mud, ice, snow and possibly all while negotiating slabs, faces, light bouldering, some shifting scree, roots, etc(common in the White Mountains on AT type tread) - although varying to degree how well they do it, are generally designed to "throw" mud, snow, ice and debris. What trail runner wants to carry around unnecessary wt and compromise traction with clogged up tread? Now, how one assimilates a trail runner designed for running in those mixed conditions into a backpacking paradigm isn't going to be solely addressed by sole composition.
Although I myself backpack in trail runners most often too, PERHAPS, in the OP's described trail conditions, and while taking into consideration the specifics of HIS hikes(which we don't entirely know), he might give greater consideration to not hiking in a trail runner?
rocketsocks
08-09-2014, 14:02
AK- Blah, blah, Blur!
JB- Blah, Blur, Blah!
Ak- Blah, (fancy text in obscure language), good pics
JB- Blur, native americans, crappy pic.
JB- Blar? Ak- Blar! JB&AK- Blurp Blah!
We seem to find ourselves in violent agreement often...:sun
No complaints from me, hopefully all that hot wind blowing around helps folks along the way:D
Where's a balloon when ya need one? http://images.chicagotraveler.com/sites/default/files/billboard/windy-city-balloon_C.jpg
up up and away!
Venchka,
Did you see what type of Vibram soles your shoes had? I was looking at the VIBRAM[emoji768] Megagrip which looks likewhat I need.
No clue which Vibram sole make up we have on the Merrell Moabs (male & female) or on the female Chaco sandals. What I saw were my grand kids in sandals scampering up and down an obstacle course trail like mountain goats.
My oldest boots have VIBRAM[emoji768] Roccia BlockTM soles. The kind that have been around since forever. Not JB's favorite.
My newest boots, Asolo 520 GTX, have some kind of new fangled Vibram sole. Maybe you can find a description of the sole online.
If I were going to New Hampshire in October I would be looking long and hard at Lowa, Salewa or Scarpa shoes that I could try in person. Or a pair of ready made Limmer boots fitted in person.
Nothing important is ever easy.
Wayne
Kerosene
08-10-2014, 07:32
For my Maine section hike starting in late September: Inov-8 RocLite 295 (http://www.zappos.com/inov-8-roclite-295-grey-lime) with "sticky rubber outsole compound has been specially developed using climbing (http://www.zappos.com/climbing) rubber technology. This rubber optimizes grip in wet conditions." 5-star rating with 96 reviews, 11 oz. per shoe, $80 at Zappos.
For my Maine section hike starting in late September: Inov-8 RocLite 295 (http://www.zappos.com/inov-8-roclite-295-grey-lime) with "sticky rubber outsole compound has been specially developed using climbing (http://www.zappos.com/climbing) rubber technology. This rubber optimizes grip in wet conditions." 5-star rating with 96 reviews, 11 oz. per shoe, $80 at Zappos.
I love the innovate 295's too, but I can't wear 'em long term 'cause they're to stinking narrow.