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misterfloyd
08-01-2014, 11:25
hello,

It is I again this time with the latest segment,..........for a young Boyscout.

I have been looking for a pack for my son. He is 80lbs dripping wet. He has no hips, and is not very tall.

Packs that I have tried:

Kelty Santitas
Osprey Ace 48 liter
Gregory Wanderer 50 liter
REI passage 65 liter
Jansport scout.

The Kelty and the Jansport are externals, and that was what was recommended by scoutmaster. In trying both I was told that they were very uncomfortable. I know the benefits of externals and still have my Yukon.

My problem with all the packs is that to cinch his waist belt tightly I run out of room. I have thought about taking the Wally world blue foam pad and cutting it to the same size of the belt to add more room outward and to get a good tight fit. Heck I thought about taking a pool noodle and threading it through to buy more space. I hope I doing a good job of describing what I mean.

Of the packs that we have tried the Gregory and the Osprey fit the best, and it doesn't look like he is struggling. I cannot find a Dueter in this area except a Dueter fox 40... too small.

The rei passage is something to grow into but as it stands right now, it is too big.

Keeping in mind that he will carry 20% of his weight 20lbs

Any suggestions, thoughts? As a concerned parent who will hike with the troop. I want somthingthat will last and if he needs to grow into a bit that is fine.

The biggest sticking point is the belt and how to manage this.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated and very much welcomed.

Best Regards,
Vince Varriale

Gambit McCrae
08-01-2014, 11:45
A size Small Osprey Hornet, or a Dueter small pack...similar
(http://www.rei.com/c/kids-backpacks?ir=category%3Ahiking-backpacks&r=category%3Acamping-and-hiking%7Chiking-backpacks%7Ckids-backpacks%3Bbest-use%3ABackpacking&rx=true)

Mobius
08-01-2014, 12:24
I just ordered the kids version of the ULA Circuit with the XS hip belt for my 8yr old daughter. We haven't taken it into the field yet but the hip belt appears to be much more effective than the Deuter Fox 30 that she was using. I couldn't get that one tight enough to transfer weight.

Bonus: the hip belt is replaceable as she gets older. The shoulder straps are adjustalbe too (unlike the regular Circuits) as she gets taller..

Teacher & Snacktime
08-01-2014, 12:27
Can you post a picture of the pack....the waist belt in particular. I'm currently resizing an adult day pack to fit a 6yr old, and I might have some idea of how to help fix it.

misterfloyd
08-01-2014, 14:27
Thanks for the suggestions,

The Osprey hornet does not have an adjustable torso.

HooKooDooKu
08-01-2014, 14:56
The description of your child sound so much like mine.

In what way was the Dueter too small. I considered that one myself because the pack seemed to fit my child, but I didn't like the fact it didn't have any lashing straps on the bottom to carry some extra gear externally (such as a tent).

Have you looked at the REI Passage 38 (http://www.rei.com/product/870881/rei-passage-38-pack-kids#specsTab)?
It's almost half the weight of the REI Passage 65, and the hips/waist size is 3" smaller than the Passage 65.

Alligator
08-01-2014, 14:56
I just ordered the kids version of the ULA Circuit with the XS hip belt for my 8yr old daughter. We haven't taken it into the field yet but the hip belt appears to be much more effective than the Deuter Fox 30 that she was using. I couldn't get that one tight enough to transfer weight.

Bonus: the hip belt is replaceable as she gets older. The shoulder straps are adjustalbe too (unlike the regular Circuits) as she gets taller..I was seeing an issue with the hip belt on my child as well, the belt was close to total cinching but a little loose. Also the shoulder width is a little wide even though the torso length was well adjusted into the middle of the range. Skinny child with narrow shoulders and the pack was sliding off the shoulders at times.

To the OP, have you measured your child's torso length? I too would suggest a pack with a removable hip belt or perhaps an adult small or extra small. Also, the REI Passage 40 has an adjustable hip belt if you think it might have enough volume. It's under the lumbar support, lift the velcro. Both sides of the belt can be moved one notch. I don't think you would move just one so I'd say the pack has small and large settings. I only found it because the stays were in backwards on the one we have and I noticed it when taking them out. If he's smaller it might fit, that pack also has a set of pad loops on the bottom, you could save some volume there.

RED-DOG
08-01-2014, 15:08
I don't mean to Hi-jack the thread but what exactly is a " POOL NOODLE " i don't think i have ever heard that expression

Alligator
08-01-2014, 15:12
I don't mean to Hi-jack the thread but what exactly is a " POOL NOODLE " i don't think i have ever heard that expressionIt's those tubular foam floaties the kids play with in pools. http://special-ism.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/poolnoodles.jpg

They can be handy for fixing stuff.

OCDave
08-01-2014, 15:30
The biggest problem buying a pack for a short, 80 lb BoyScout is that he may be 40 lbs heavier or 6 inches taller the next time he puts the pack on.

For our 80 pounder we modified older packs that were lying around. We cut up a closed foam sleeping pad to modify a hip belt on an slightly too large frameless pack. We actually kept his pack weight closer to 15 lbs. We spent the dollars we saved on a new pack on lightening his sleeping bag and sleep pad.

The external frame packs do provide greater adjustment for an explosively growing scout. Perhaps you could improvise a suspension that would make your external frame passable for the first year or so. The problem I see with an external frame pack is young scouts tend to have lots of stuff loosely tied to, or swinging from the pack. Day packs, book bags, home-made rucksacks are all worthy of consideration as well.

Finally, All Scouts grow. I am fairly confident there is a pack which has been outgrown within your son's troop. Lightly used packs and boots are commonly passed items in my sons' troop.

Good Luck

bobp
08-01-2014, 17:22
This is a tough sell for some Scouts, but the younger, thinner, smaller ones do far better for fit with women's packs. And it will be quite difficult to find a pack that will suit a boy at 11 and a young man at 17 (with that said, the Camp Trails external that I used at 13 would still work for me now if I hadn't graduated to other packs).

misterfloyd
08-01-2014, 18:17
Hello,

Thank you all for your input and help.

The Dueter 40 was fine but with a cats meow bag not much room is left.

I would like to get him at least something close to 50L. With the 20% rule that would be A NF Cats Meow bag, closed cell pad, water, food, FA kit, and clothes.

I have asked the scout master, and have not gotten a firm answer yet. I have no problem with modifying packs. I've done that with mine, and you do what you have to in making it functional for you.

I had his torso measured and he is at 12''. I just might order the osprey, gregory, and the NF packs at REI and what ever feels the best with the appropriate weight I will get.

I did make the suggestion at an outfitter about a small women's pack and was not given a a good answer why this would not work well. Can someone tell me why this wouldn't work....?

HooKooDooKu
08-01-2014, 21:19
Some ways to save space:
If you can return the Cat's Meow or if someone else in the family can use it, replace it with a Mountain Hardware Ultralamina.
The Cat's Meow (20) packs down to 9x17
The Ultralamina (15) packs down to 7x13

This bag normally sells for around $250. But if you look for sales and clearances, you can find some discounts.

Get either a Therm-a-rest Neo Air Xlite (expensive) or a Therm-a-rest Pro-lite (not AS expensive). Both weigh about 1lb and both can be rolled up really small. The Neo Air is really simple to roll up small. The Pro-lite takes some work and a little bit of strength. But I regularly roll the Pro-lite up for my 8yo in the small size pro-lite stuff sac (http://www.campmor.com/outdoor/gear/Product___48824)k (even though the pad is "regular" size). That means the sleeping pad stuffs down to 4.5"x11".

Alligator
08-02-2014, 01:07
Hookoodoku is spot on about reducing sleeping bag volume. I've got a Cats Meow too and when I need that temperature rating, that bag is a major reason for switching to my Aether 60. If you are into DIY, and don't want to spend hundreds on a new bag, you might also consider making a quilt. They pack small too and your son could get a lot of use out of it. I haven't priced out materials lately but I would guess you could make a synthetic one for under $80. Only caveat I would add is to consider whether your son will stay on the pad or roll around. Some kids just won't stay on it.

Another Kevin
08-02-2014, 09:25
When my daughter was that size, I couldn't find a better answer than putting her in a climber's day pack, and putting her sleeping bag in a compression bag and crunching it far beyond what the manufacturer recommended. Since the compression bag was also a drysack, she could lash it outside when she ran out of space. That kind of hard compression is not good for the down, of course, but she had only a handful of nights out while she was that small. She still uses the pack as a technical daypack. It's an awkward answer, but for fast-growing kids I don't think there's a good one.

dzierzak
08-05-2014, 09:58
A few years ago I ran across a hip belt mod for skinny (no hip) kids. Instructions from the author follow.
2797427975
27976
Author's process:
I laid out and cut pieces of pad to match the front pad part of the hipbelt Then, using scraps of nylon
fabric, I cut two pieces of cloth for each pad, about an inch bigger than the pad. Sew them together
(1/2" seam) inside out, leaving one end open (if it tapers a lot to the front, make it the wide end!). Turn
it right side out, insert pad, and sew up the back, by hand or machine if you can jam it in there.
Then I went to needle and thread by hand--positioned the pad over the matching part of the hipbelt,
and just stitched it on, through the fabric cover rather than the padding. You can be really secure and
go all around, or just anchor the corners and maybe midway each side.
If you wanted, you could make generic pads, by sewing elastic to the fabric covers so that there are
loops that can be slid over any hip belt. They wouldn't stay in position as well, but wouldn't require
custom time with each boy's pack.

Likeapuma
08-05-2014, 10:14
From what I've seen with the Troop I volunteer with, whatever you decide, don't spend too much money on a pack for a boy who's yet to hit his growth spirt.

I have seen parents buy nice expensive bags for the few backpacking trips they do a year, only to need to get something bigger the next year. If they have a big trip planned (Philmont or something), then maybe it's worth it to spend a bit more, as they'll be using the pack enough to justify the cost.

Your best bet is to ask around the troop. Parents of older kids went through the same issue, & probably have packs collecting dust somewhere. Ik a lot of kids actually donate their old packs once they outgrow them, so help newer scouts avoid some of the cost of buying all new gear.

garyp
08-11-2014, 14:06
Scout direct is going to be your best bet. you get a 45% discount due to you being in the scouts.

http://www.scoutdirect.com/scout/program

perdidochas
08-12-2014, 11:35
hello,

It is I again this time with the latest segment,..........for a young Boyscout.

I have been looking for a pack for my son. He is 80lbs dripping wet. He has no hips, and is not very tall.

Packs that I have tried:

Kelty Santitas
Osprey Ace 48 liter
Gregory Wanderer 50 liter
REI passage 65 liter
Jansport scout.

The Kelty and the Jansport are externals, and that was what was recommended by scoutmaster. In trying both I was told that they were very uncomfortable. I know the benefits of externals and still have my Yukon.

My problem with all the packs is that to cinch his waist belt tightly I run out of room. I have thought about taking the Wally world blue foam pad and cutting it to the same size of the belt to add more room outward and to get a good tight fit. Heck I thought about taking a pool noodle and threading it through to buy more space. I hope I doing a good job of describing what I mean.

Of the packs that we have tried the Gregory and the Osprey fit the best, and it doesn't look like he is struggling. I cannot find a Dueter in this area except a Dueter fox 40... too small.

The rei passage is something to grow into but as it stands right now, it is too big.

Keeping in mind that he will carry 20% of his weight 20lbs

Any suggestions, thoughts? As a concerned parent who will hike with the troop. I want somthingthat will last and if he needs to grow into a bit that is fine.

The biggest sticking point is the belt and how to manage this.

Any suggestions are greatly appreciated and very much welcomed.

Best Regards,
Vince Varriale

If he's that small, I'd get him something cheap. Smaller boys in our troop have done well with some of the Outdoor Products packs. A new Boy Scout is about to go into one of the fastest growth phases of their lives.

perdidochas
08-12-2014, 11:36
The biggest problem buying a pack for a short, 80 lb BoyScout is that he may be 40 lbs heavier or 6 inches taller the next time he puts the pack on.

For our 80 pounder we modified older packs that were lying around. We cut up a closed foam sleeping pad to modify a hip belt on an slightly too large frameless pack. We actually kept his pack weight closer to 15 lbs. We spent the dollars we saved on a new pack on lightening his sleeping bag and sleep pad.

The external frame packs do provide greater adjustment for an explosively growing scout. Perhaps you could improvise a suspension that would make your external frame passable for the first year or so. The problem I see with an external frame pack is young scouts tend to have lots of stuff loosely tied to, or swinging from the pack. Day packs, book bags, home-made rucksacks are all worthy of consideration as well.

Finally, All Scouts grow. I am fairly confident there is a pack which has been outgrown within your son's troop. Lightly used packs and boots are commonly passed items in my sons' troop.

Good Luck

Not might, but probably will be much larger. My sons have done well with the Outdoor products external frame packs--fairly cheap and work.

slbirdnerd
08-12-2014, 12:28
Just noticed your thread. If you haven't already bought, my Scout has loved his Osprey Ace 48 the past 2 years--from age 10 to age 12 so far.

misterfloyd
08-13-2014, 09:16
Hello to all,

Thank you for all of your suggestions. I like the osprey ace as well, or I should say he does. It has been the most comfortable pack he has remarked. Being 48 liters my concern by the time we put a cats meow bag in it there will not be much room left. Getting another bag is not an option, would like to get a bigger capacity.

The scoutmaster is, and have been suggesting an external, and I understand why. They are easy to pack, many pockets, distribute weight evenly and you can lash sleeping bags and a tent without compromising the space in the main compartment.

I have heard all the negatives about externals as well. I have experienced them. I had a kelty that I used and loved for years. I mention externals, and people look at me like I'm nuts

I have gone to other outfitters, same brands, same answers. I have a love/hate relationship with REI, I think they have an agenda. I ask for externals and I get the same, patented answer, no matter the store, and I get pointed to THEIR passage 65 pack.

I want my son to be comfortable, and be encouraged to backpack with me and scouts.

Again, I have not bought a pack, I have tried every company, and get the same results. So I'm just listening and getting suggestions from as many people as I can. Then we will try the process again and purchase one soon.

Thank you for all your help, you have been more helpful than you know!!

Best,
Floyd

slbirdnerd
08-13-2014, 15:40
Floyd--Let me check my kid and his Ace 48 pack tonight and see if it even still fits him. If not, maybe I could send it your way. Got 2 years of good use out of it, always happy to pass long to another Scout.

One thing: You mention the size of it maybe not being big enough. This concerns me--I know Scouts tend to pack heavy, historically, but believe times need to change. :) Much larger of a pack and your boy will be overloaded. If he's packing for summer camp, it's okay to have more than just the pack, like his bedroll and tarp separate or something. Mine just tied his together with his rope and chucked them in the trailer. If they are backpacking, they need to find ways to pack lighter, especially for the younger ones. I saw a Troop on the AT in GA in June and the boys in the back, the younger ones, were loaded for bear, not having fun at all, and looked exhausted.

Just Bill
08-13-2014, 16:36
Floyd-
Scout Troops tend to prefer an external frame for a few reasons-
Scouts are generally behind the times but besides the crusty old woodsman's opinions, practically speaking;
External frames are easier to field repair, and the components mix and match- making the troop kit more versatile.
Many externals can swap hipbelts, shoulder straps and change torso heights- helpful with growing boys.
If a fellow scout is struggling- gear is easy to swap around or lash on.
Many boys have the same problem as your's- a huge sleeping bag and cheap foam pad- two bulky items hard to carry in an internal.

That said- no reason your son can't use an internal frame.

Using women's packs- this has been a long standing solution that is an excellent plan. While not quite as true as when I was younger- women's gear in general is easy to find on clearance racks and fits young men much better. Several lads in our troop rocked boots with pink laces, purple packs, and powder blue long undies. Embrace the women's gear, it generally comes in the best color of all (green money).

Hipbelts-
As mentioned, one thing young lads do not have in common with women is hips.

The sock trick- Use a men's calf high gym sock (ace knee wrap, compression sock, or similar work too). Cut the toes off the sock, or even the feet if it is not an old school tube sock. Slip the sock over the hipbelt, fill with cheap blue egg crate foam or what ever works. The tube sock will wear out quick, but all the dad's had plenty to "donate" but a cheap wally world pack will do the job for a few dollars a year.

Ace bandage- Like the tip above- just easier to adjust or wrap on foam square with no slip. Also might be needed on some tapered hip belt styles.

Lumbar bumper- while hard to attach or retain on some packs- adding a big thick lumbar bumper will suck up almost double it's thickness in waist length. "2" bumper will eat almost 4" of belt." Kinda like that beer gut makes your pants bigger even though your belly is above the waist.
Best cut out of rectangles of blue foamy pad. You can slip them in a sock and secure the ends to the belt once it clears the pack body. Make the bumper full width, and 3-4" tall.
This also helps for any hikers with "no ass", not just no hips.

Split the belt- full mod. Cut the belt down the center, sew on 3/4" webbing and buckles to each piece. This will give the belt more grab- creating two narrow belts- but save this for a last resort.

As fer the Cat's Meow- that's a 7or8 liter bag. A 7x21 stuff sack. Vertically it would chew space, but you may be better off getting a different stuff sack so it can pack horizontally on the bottom. A 10" diameter x 12" tall stuff sack is probably about right- but a math wiz (or junior high scout) could probably run the numbers.

Or pack everything else first and use the bag to fill in the voids. A basic top loader is best for this.

A thought- you may be slightly misled regarding volume as well. Not only is it listed poorly in general on internal frames, but likely you are loosing volume in using the small/extra small sizes. It is very uncommon to find volume listed separately by size, and even by gender. You may have a 40L that is really a 30L practically speaking. Usually though, you only loose a few liters per size.

Don't be afraid of the REI brand packs, two bonus's-
The house brand is cheap, and often has REI specific coupons that stack on sales. It is not hard to get an REI pack half off.
Membership into the cult of REI lets you return anything in a year (in case your boy grows to the star of the basketball team on fine summer day on your second trip)

You can also hit the garage sales- scoring virtually untouched gear for very cheap.

Torso length-
If a pending growth spurt has you nervous- slipping a pool noodle or similar UNDER the shoulder strap will gobble up 3-4" of torso length. This only works once the hipbelt is fitting well, but will allow a short scout to wear a taller pack as they grow into it. Picture a little guy in a pack that fits well at the hip, but whose shoulder come up several inches shy of the straps- now fill that gap in with foam (like shoulder pads from a women's blouse/jacket) and it will be serviceable enough. You don't want to thicken the strap- but fill the height gap. Think shoulder pads, not thicker strap.

misterfloyd
08-14-2014, 12:09
Bill,

Thanks for all the suggestions. You have came up with some I have not thought of!

I'm a member of REI, and use them often, have a good number of thier stuff as well. I just have a problem with them pushing one of their products when it clearly is too big. All of you suggestions, and from others I will keep.

Thank you for writing.

Best,
Floyd

misterfloyd
08-14-2014, 12:10
slbirdnerd,

Thank you for your consideration and let me know.
BEst,
Floyd

slbirdnerd
08-14-2014, 15:28
Floyd,

Well, the pack won't fit him much longer but he wants to hang onto it. If that changes you'll be the first to know!

Birdnerd