PDA

View Full Version : Methyl Hydrate as stove fuel?



offshegoes
01-15-2003, 15:40
I am Canadian--no denatured alcohol:(

I've just started building some homemade stoves and happened to have a couple of things of gasline antifreeze at the house to test them with....but my supply ran out and I went in search of denatured alcohol...nobody knows what the heck I'm talking about at wal mart or hardware stores. After I did some hunting around on the net it seems that in Canada denatured alc. is only used in hospitals and stuff like that here.....Does anyone know if this is correct? So what are my alternatives? I saw something called methyl hydrate at the hardware store....is this safe? What else burns well? I know I can use the gasline antifreeze but it's a lot of packaging. Thanks for your help.

Ann
01-15-2003, 16:24
Below is a list of SYNONYMS for denatured or wood alcohol et al:

http://ccinfoweb.ccohs.ca/cheminfo/Action.lasso?-database=cheminfo&-layout=search&-response=hitlist.html&-noresultserror=noresults.html&-op=eq&RECORD+NUMBER=23&-search

Essentially it is simply alcohol that is made poisinous with additives so that it will not be fit for human consumption.


EDIT:
PS...if I'm not mistaken denatured alcohol is usually called methylated spirits in Europe and other parts of the world...so I don't know if that might help as well.

chris
01-15-2003, 17:15
I'm not sure if they allow it in Canada (they don't in California), but relatively pure grain alcohol (like Everclear) should burn just as efficiently as denatured alcohol (which is just pure alcohol with some additives). Look for it in liquor stores. You can usually find 90-95% pure stuff. An added bonus is that you can mix it with a bit of gatorade and have afternoon cocktails.

offshegoes
01-15-2003, 17:20
I just remembered there was also something called mineral spirits....would this be under the denatured alcohol category as well?

SGT Rock
01-15-2003, 17:25
NO!:eek:

DebW
01-15-2003, 17:33
Originally posted by Ann
Below is a list of SYNONYMS for denatured or wood alcohol et al:

http://ccinfoweb.ccohs.ca/cheminfo/Action.lasso?-database=cheminfo&-layout=search&-response=hitlist.html&-noresultserror=noresults.html&-op=eq&RECORD+NUMBER=23&-search

Essentially it is simply alcohol that is made poisinous with additives so that it will not be fit for human consumption.


EDIT:
PS...if I'm not mistaken denatured alcohol is usually called methylated spirits in Europe and other parts of the world...so I don't know if that might help as well.

Denatured alcohol is ethyl alcohol or grain alcohol (the drinkable stuff) with poisonous additives. Here are the synonmys:

http://ccinfoweb.ccohs.ca/cheminfo/Action.lasso

Methanol or wood alcohol is never drinkable (except by very drunken individuals who end up blind from trying). Methylated spirits is probably methanol. Both ethanol and methanol can be burned in stoves.

jlb2012
01-15-2003, 18:07
I have heard that in Canada look for a product called "fondue fuel" - this is denatured alcohol plus a blue colouring. Methylated spirits is another common name for denatured alcohol but I don't know if that is a Canadian term or a British term for it.

Ann
01-15-2003, 19:20
DebW...
Unless I'm having a truly blonde day here I believe we are saying the SAME thing....

BTW...
DebW wrote:

Both ethanol and methanol can be burned in stoves

As well as other common names, that are alcohol based..see the Synonyms...(that's why I provided the link).

I use a shellac thinner (advertised that way on the can) in my Trangia...I just buy whatever is cheaper, most readily available and is alcohol.

offshegoes
01-15-2003, 19:33
what was the big no for?

Ann
01-15-2003, 19:53
Minerals spirits are commonly used in dry cleaning and are normally a petroleum distillate. It is a type of hydrocarbon solvent. Translation, not the same as alcohol and not for use in the stove.

Try asking around for methylated spirits, that might be a more commonly known name for denatured alcohol in Canada...good luck and let us know!!!

offshegoes
01-15-2003, 20:37
since methyl hydrate was in the list of synonyms and I've heard of others using it I'm going to go with that one....thanks for all the help

Keith
01-17-2003, 16:21
I did a quick google search and found:

"OTTAWA - Health Canada is advising Canadians about the potential danger of poisoning from the ingestion of methyl hydrate, a liquid used in gas-line antifreeze and windshield washer fluid. Methyl hydrate is also used as fuel for fondue sets."

and

"Methyl Hydrate is available in your local hardware store. It is used as antifreeze, as a fuel for camp stoves, and as a solvent for shellac. It is what keeps shellac in the bottle from hardening, and it will also dissolve shellac instantly."

so I believe that Methyl Hydrate and denatured alcohol are the same thing.

Hammock Hanger
01-17-2003, 17:47
I used Heet--methyl alcohol. It was really easy to find at most Walmart, 7/11 or convinence stores. Not to mention it comes in nice 12 oz bottles, just enough for 5 days. (I only cook one meal aday and tea.) It burns hot and fairly clean. The red bottle uses iso-alcohol and burns dirty, leaves a black residue. Hammock Hanger

RagingHampster
01-18-2003, 09:59
I am finding that Methanol is the easiest form of fuel to get and in the correct quantities. However, it also seeps right through your skin, and your liver turns it to formaldehyde, which in turn pretty much poisons/pickles you. The other alcohols (ethanol & isopropanol) don't do this. Isopropanol is out for be because of the soot, and everclear is a littole too expensive for me (lol). Denatured is ethanol mixed with a tid-bit of methanol so people won't drink it. I can only find it at hard-ware stores, and thats it. Methanol is everywhere though. For now I will continue using methanol, but I really don't feel like needing a liver transplant before I'm 30. How do others feel on this?

Hammock Hanger
01-18-2003, 10:19
How does one get pickled from the use ... drinking (highly unlikely), fume vapors? skin absorbtion, wouldn't it take a lot? I like using this fuel so am interested in side effects. HH

Ann
01-18-2003, 10:51
I would also like to hear the answer to Raging Hampsters
claim; the amount, and time it takes for "pickling" to occur.

I realize that Methanol is not 100% safe but my understanding is that the amount of additive is quite small. I believe even use of White Gas in Gas stoves is not 100% safe, and in the long run the use of Methanol in stove applications perhaps has a better saftey record considering all potential dangers.

PS..Sorry Lone Wolf..I know in another thread you mentioned you owned stock in some oil co's...I do also own a Svea123 for cold weather use so I am a consumer of gas for a stove but only in the colder months. ;)

walkerat99
01-18-2003, 11:40
If what RagingHamster says is true, then I would assume the answer is simply do not let it contact the skin. I am glad that I use a dish detergent bottle to carry and store my fuel. All I do is squirt about 1/2 oz into the stove and light it. My skin does not come into contact with the fuel at all. If someone is worried about it, they my try use my method works for me. Just a thought.

Ed

SGT Rock
01-18-2003, 11:45
Alcohol rarely touches my akin, and if it does it is in trace amounts and dries off from evaporation quickly, not like petrol distilates.

RagingHampster
01-19-2003, 17:10
I was reading up on thru-hikers using methanol, I forget where, maybe TrailJournals or PCTHiker. I heard from a few places that 12oz of methanol contains enough formaldehyde in it to make a person blind if absorbed all at once (whether drinkning it or through skin contact). Either way it is quickly absorbed through the skin and into your capellaries.

Of course this could be completely false, and apply only to the imbibing of the product. Either way it makes me nervous when told about this. I guess the use of denatured alcohol which has very little methanol in it is highly encouraged. I'll look for the articles I saw tomorrow.

The pickeling statement was a joke by the way lol.

Uncle Wayne
02-12-2003, 03:52
This past weekend I used Methanol for the first time in my "Pepsi can Photon Stove." We were doing a day hike in the Sipsey Wilderness. Temperaure was 39 degrees and no wind. I had brought the stove and methanol to heat water for "hot chocolate" (as we call it) when we stopped for lunch. 28 ounces of stream water, in a one liter titanium pot with lid, a whisperlite aluminum windscreen with 1/4 holes around the bottom surrounding the tuna can base and stove. I used 1.5 ounces of fuel and the water boiled in almost exactly 9.5 minutes. The stove was sitting inside a tuna can with as much of the side metal removed as possible but still enough mass there to support the pot and water. I started timing when I set the stove on the base and stopped when there was noticable steam coming out by the lid. When I lifted the lid the water was actually a "rolling boil" so it had been a "bubbling boil" several seconds before. The stove burned for about 2 minutes longer although I didn't time it as exact as I did the "boil" time.

I may never duplicate this again but was very pleased with the time it took to boil the water under those conditions. The fuel is the only difference in the above set up that I have not tried before. I've used denatured alcohol or Heet but have not gotten the same "time to boil" with those fuels and the same amount of water as I did using methanol. In fact the denatured alcohol I've used produces some type of residue that actually sticks the bottom of my pot to the top of the tuna can base. The methanol and Heet do not produce any residue. I don't know about the health risk involved with Methanol. I do know it gave me better results than in any previous try with other fuel. YMMV.

DebW
02-12-2003, 11:31
Heet is methanol.

pdhoffman
02-12-2003, 13:10
O.K., a basic chemistry lesson, folks.

Methanol is methyl alcohol is wood alcohol. This is the stuff that could blind you if drunk.

Ethanol is ethyl alcohol is grain alcohol. This is the drinking stuff.

Denatured alcohol is ethanol with an additive to make it undrinkable. There are many different denaturing agents depending on the application.

HEET in the yellow bottle is methanol.

Everclear is ethanol that has NOT been denatured. That is why it is expensive, it has the federal government tax that is on all liquor built into the price. You could burn 190 proof vodka in your stove, too. How's that for a dual use item. Have a drink before dinner while you boil your water, all from the same bottle.

I have tried all the alcohols in my Trangia stove. Methanol produces essentially no soot on the pot. Ethanol produces a very light soot. Isopropyl alcohol (HEET red bottle) produces a lot of soot. I will be using methanol, unless I can't get it.

Pete Hoffman

Uncle Wayne
02-14-2003, 06:36
DebW & Pete,

Thanks, I didn't realize the yellow bottle of Heet and Methanol were one and the same. But you're right, it says so right on the Heet bottle. The guy who gave me the pint of "Methanol" uses it in his go-kart as "racing fuel". He races go-karts as a hobby. He said it is a common trick among the racing teams to ice down the Methanol before filling up the tanks of the go-karts. Meaning they put the jugs of Methanol in a cooler filled with ice in between the times they fuel up the go-karts. He thinks it makes the methanol burn cleaner / hotter and allows the engines to reach a higher speed / rpm during the race. He claims there is a noticable difference in performance in the go-karts using cooled methanol.

Is it possible that is the reason my "boil time" was better than usual was because of the temperature of the Methanol (probably in the 39 to 40 degree range)? All my previous test had been on the back porch in very moderate temperatures, ranging from 50 to 75 degrees.

SGT Rock
02-15-2003, 00:43
I think this is a case where things work in oposite. In an engine like dragsters, the cooling helps control the engine temperature which is one of the things that a go cart lacks - a cooling system. So cooler fuel would help manage engine temp if he is burning alcohol. On the other hand, there isn't enough heat and pressure in an alcohol stove to need this benifit. In an alcohol stove you need the stove fuel to vaporize, so warmer is better.

wmb66
11-16-2009, 15:31
I am Canadian--no denatured alcohol:(

I've just started building some homemade stoves and happened to have a couple of things of gasline antifreeze at the house to test them with....but my supply ran out and I went in search of denatured alcohol...nobody knows what the heck I'm talking about at wal mart or hardware stores. After I did some hunting around on the net it seems that in Canada denatured alc. is only used in hospitals and stuff like that here.....Does anyone know if this is correct? So what are my alternatives? I saw something called methyl hydrate at the hardware store....is this safe? What else burns well? I know I can use the gasline antifreeze but it's a lot of packaging. Thanks for your help.


hey I'm from Canada to what i use is one of those old tobacco cans the ones that are metal with a cover and i stick roll of tolietpaper inside of it at put a small bottle of gas line antifreeze(methyl hydrate) all over the roll when it is inside and lighter er up.and if you plan on cooking on this get one of those big Heinz ketchup can and use a can opener to open it and transfer all the ketchup in to other bottles or containers and clean it good and flip it over and poke to holes on the edge of the can the part that is not open and this is for air so put the the tobacco can under the ketchup can(first light it) and the ketchup can will act as a pan to cook hamburgers or chicken or almost anything on Good LUCK if you want i can post some pictures :jump

atraildreamer
11-16-2009, 15:49
DebW & Pete,

Is it possible that is the reason my "boil time" was better than usual was because of the temperature of the Methanol (probably in the 39 to 40 degree range)? All my previous test had been on the back porch in very moderate temperatures, ranging from 50 to 75 degrees.

Here is a way to test your burn times.

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?t=19616

Have fun...don't burn down/blow up the house! :eek::D:banana

Connie
11-16-2009, 17:01
I thought Heet "red label" had additives that are poisonous.

Yes or No?

I read that the alcohol antifreeze for brake lines for trucks, is safe used outdoors and burns clean, not smudging the cooking pot.

Yes or No?

Doctari
11-16-2009, 22:02
When I can get it I prefer Everclear (type) alcohol, it seems to burn way hotter. I have to go all the way across the river into Kentucky to get it, a whole 19 mile drive round trip. :p

Otherwise I use HEET in the red bottle, which is readily available in Ohio. I have a separate bottle for each, cause I actually like to drink Everclear! HEET not so much.

Connie
11-17-2009, 00:45
You drink Everclear. Isn't that like 200-proof?

If you don't put the cap on right away, that stuff will evaporate before you get the cap back on. Of course, I wouldn't know really. I have only heard about Everclear.

generoll
11-17-2009, 09:18
I need Vonfrick to check me out here, but I believe that methanol is CH3OH and ethanol is C2H5OH. You'd have to google the caloric output, but I think you'll get more heat from equal quantities of ethanol then you will from methanol. Ethanol is poisoned for human consumption by law to keep people from cheating the tax man.

slowandlow
11-17-2009, 11:46
I think this is a case where things work in oposite. In an engine like dragsters, the cooling helps control the engine temperature which is one of the things that a go cart lacks - a cooling system. So cooler fuel would help manage engine temp if he is burning alcohol. On the other hand, there isn't enough heat and pressure in an alcohol stove to need this benifit. In an alcohol stove you need the stove fuel to vaporize, so warmer is better.

Drag racers ice down fuel so that it will provide a more dense charge of fuel/air mixture, resulting in more power.

mudhead
11-17-2009, 11:52
You drink Everclear. Isn't that like 200-proof?

If you don't put the cap on right away, that stuff will evaporate before you get the cap back on. Of course, I wouldn't know really. I have only heard about Everclear.

In a lab environment one once could see 100% alcohol. You didn't want to drink it, because benzene was used to remove the last 5%(?) of water.

proof = % x 2.

Grain alcohol is good for punch bowls. Not for your head.:)

LaurieAnn
11-17-2009, 19:45
offshegoes... I'm in Ontario and I use fondue fuel which is denatured alcohol - you can buy it at Home Hardware and it's cheap.

Dances with Mice
11-17-2009, 23:33
I need Vonfrick to check me out here, but I believe that methanol is CH3OH and ethanol is C2H5OH. You'd have to google the caloric output, but I think you'll get more heat from equal quantities of ethanol then you will from methanol. Ethanol is poisoned for human consumption by law to keep people from cheating the tax man.Miz Frick's busy so they called me in off the bench.

'Cause I'm an chemical engineer I gotta start by asking what you mean by equal quantities. There's a whole bunch of different quantities out there to play with. Let's start with just three:

On a molecule by molecule basis ethanol wins big time. It releases 1364 KJ/mol vs methanol's 725. If you need to ask what KJs and mols are, just don't. Let's call it energy and ethanol's got a lot more of it than methanol. Per molecule. OK?

So. Ever buy a molecule of ethanol? Well, yeah you've probably bought billions of them but that's not the point. The point which I didn't make well is that you'd like to know how much energy a more useful quantity of each fuel contains. Like weight. I've noticed backpackers are big on that whole weight thing.

On a gram by gram basis it's a wash. Molecules of ethanol have more energy than methanol but they also weigh more. When burned ethanol releases 6 Kcal/gram compared to methanol's 5.4. So what the hell's a Kcal and why'd I switch to them instead of KJ's? Because that's how engineers swing. We never want you to know what we're talking about. Any more questions?

Another quantity is volume. Both have specific gravities of about 0.8 (that means it's lighter than water which has a s.g. of 1). And that means equal volumes of each weigh about the same. So that sends us back to the weight thing, where there's less than a 10% difference in released heat energies.

Then we could get into which fuel is more likely to contain water and how any additives affect the heat energies but let's not.

Bottom line: There's not much practical difference between the two fuels.

ARambler
11-18-2009, 00:46
Miz Frick's busy so they called me in off the bench.

'Cause I'm an chemical engineer I gotta start by asking what you mean by equal quantities. There's a whole bunch of different quantities out there to play with. Let's start with just three:

On a molecule by molecule basis ethanol wins big time. It releases 1364 KJ/mol vs methanol's 725. If you need to ask what KJs and mols are, just don't. Let's call it energy and ethanol's got a lot more of it than methanol. Per molecule. OK?

So. Ever buy a molecule of ethanol? Well, yeah you've probably bought billions of them but that's not the point. The point which I didn't make well is that you'd like to know how much energy a more useful quantity of each fuel contains. Like weight. I've noticed backpackers are big on that whole weight thing.

On a gram by gram basis it's a wash. Molecules of ethanol have more energy than methanol but they also weigh more. When burned ethanol releases 6 Kcal/gram compared to methanol's 5.4. So what the hell's a Kcal and why'd I switch to them instead of KJ's? Because that's how engineers swing. We never want you to know what we're talking about. Any more questions?

Another quantity is volume. Both have specific gravities of about 0.8 (that means it's lighter than water which has a s.g. of 1). And that means equal volumes of each weigh about the same. So that sends us back to the weight thing, where there's less than a 10% difference in released heat energies.

Then we could get into which fuel is more likely to contain water and how any additives affect the heat energies but let's not.

Bottom line: There's not much practical difference between the two fuels.

If the heat of combustion of ethanol is 1364 kJ/mol and the molecular weight is 46.07 g/mol the heat is 7.07 kcal/gm. or 30% more than 5.4 kcal/g for methanol.

If Rambler is talking to a beautiful woman, is he thinking hot sex, hot stoves, or how to work Monty Python into the conversation?
Rambler

Doctari
11-18-2009, 07:41
You drink Everclear. Isn't that like 200-proof?

If you don't put the cap on right away, that stuff will evaporate before you get the cap back on. Of course, I wouldn't know really. I have only heard about Everclear.

198 actually. It is a bit strong, but then I find Dave's insanity sauce (Very HOT; hot sauce.) "Amusing". Do NOT try this at home, I am a trained expert! :p

I re-cap immediately, the stuff will catch fire even 2' from the stove on a warm day. Never had a problem with it evaporating that fast, but have heard of it doing so from a sealed bottle in a hot car.

Dances with Mice
11-18-2009, 09:48
If the heat of combustion of ethanol is 1364 kJ/mol and the molecular weight is 46.07 g/mol the heat is 7.07 kcal/gm. or 30% more than 5.4 kcal/g for methanol.

If Rambler is talking to a beautiful woman, is he thinking hot sex, hot stoves, or how to work Monty Python into the conversation?
Rambler
Now you know why they keep me sitting on the bench.

Methanol
Molar heat of combustion - 726 KJ/mol
Molar mass - 32.042 g/mol
Density - 0.7918 g/cm3
Molar Volume - 40.467 mL
Heat of Comustion - 17.94 KJ/mL

Ethanol
Molar heat of combustion - 1367 KJ/mol
Molar mass - 46.0688 g/mol
Density - 0.789 g/cm3
Molar Volume - 58.388 mL
Heat of Comustion - 23.41 KJ/mL

As to the second question, not enough information is given. What are the chances that a beautiful woman would talk to you?

ARambler
11-18-2009, 15:09
Now you know why they keep me sitting on the bench.

Methanol
Molar heat of combustion - 726 KJ/mol
Molar mass - 32.042 g/mol
Density - 0.7918 g/cm3
Molar Volume - 40.467 mL
Heat of Comustion - 17.94 KJ/mL

Ethanol
Molar heat of combustion - 1367 KJ/mol
Molar mass - 46.0688 g/mol
Density - 0.789 g/cm3
Molar Volume - 58.388 mL
Heat of Comustion - 23.41 KJ/mL

As to the second question, not enough information is given. What are the chances that a beautiful woman would talk to you?

Maybe not long conversations, Carol Cleveland only has one line, and the rest of them only talk about their restraining orders. Sorry, the answer we were looking for was "What's hot sex?"

I wish denatured ethanol was as available as methanol. Isobutane is about twice as efficient as methanol on a fuel weight basis (taking account of priming fuel, maybe more). I'm heading back to butane, but mainly for convenience. The weight of the canister and stove make butane heavier.

Rambler

Connie
11-18-2009, 18:57
Here (http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/), Doctari. 180 proof.

ARambler, denatured ethanol?


Cellulosic Ethanol Company to Use Woodwaste and Other Biomass (http://www.renewableenergyaccess.com/rea/news/story?id=47272&src=FreeEnergyNews.com) - New technologies are required to produce ethanol from biomass cellulose rather than from the fermentation of valuable grains. Lignol Energy Corporation (http://www.lignol.ca/) has acquired and modified a solvent-based pre-treatment technology originally developed by a subsidiary of General Electric (GE). (Renewable Energy Access; Jan. 30, 2007)link (http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Ethanol/)

Doctari
11-19-2009, 08:01
Here (http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/), Doctari. 180 proof.

ARambler, denatured ethanol?

link (http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Ethanol/)

Cool! Looks like too much work tho, & time I could spend hiking. :p

generoll
11-19-2009, 10:12
actually, you can do double duty by just carrying a proper supply of 151 rum. It will work in your alcohol stove and of course also works quite nicely when taken internally. only degenerate drunks buy everclear.

Connie
11-19-2009, 10:27
Have you burned 151 proof rum in an alcohol stove?

Does it leave a rum-flavored residue on the cooking pot?

Is the food rum-flavored?

bronconite
11-19-2009, 11:04
You drink Everclear. Isn't that like 200-proof?

If you don't put the cap on right away, that stuff will evaporate before you get the cap back on. Of course, I wouldn't know really. I have only heard about Everclear.

Everclear is available in 151 proof and 190 proof, which is 95% alcohol. You can't make consumable alcohol much more pure as the process to remove the last 5% of water makes it undrinkable.

ARambler
11-19-2009, 11:11
Note, this 6 year old thread was reopenned by someone who knew methyl hydtate/methanol would work in their stove. This stove and maybe a few others may work better with methanol, but most stoves work best with ethanol. (Almost all stoves work a little better (but not well) with methanol at very low temperatures.) We have discussed how ethanol is significantly more efficient on a weight basis.

151 rum has a lot of water that needs to be boiled and heated to flame temperature, so the 25% water makes it much more than 25% less efficient. It is also not clear how a hiker that should be in the paint section of a Super Walmart/ hardware store would be buying rum. Also, heat in the red bottle contains mostly (iso)propanol, which burns inefficiently with a lot soot in every stove I have seen. Red heet is used by less than 1 % of thru hikers a second time.

Yes, the labeling is confusing, but using an alcohol stove is not that difficult, even I can do it.
Rambler

zelph
11-24-2009, 01:03
When I can get it I prefer Everclear (type) alcohol, it seems to burn way hotter. I have to go all the way across the river into Kentucky to get it, a whole 19 mile drive round trip. :p

Otherwise I use HEET in the red bottle, which is readily available in Ohio. I have a separate bottle for each, cause I actually like to drink Everclear! HEET not so much.

HEET in the red bottle you say:-?

What kind of stove are you burning it in?

4Bears
11-27-2009, 16:40
Can you use E85 in an alcohol stove? Has anyone tred it or is 15% gas make it to dangerous?

Compass
11-27-2009, 18:26
My understanding is Gasoline is dangerous and sooty but E85 is an interesting combination.

As to the BTU differences in the fuels Here is a link to a Chart with BTU/pound of Gasoline, Liquified Petroleum(Propane), Compessed Natural Gas, Methanol, and Ethanol.
http://dnr.louisiana.gov/sec/execdiv/techasmt/ecep/auto/m/m.htm
Also in the link is a picture of the tank size each fuel type would take up as a motor fuel to go the same distance.

zelph
11-27-2009, 18:59
Can you use E85 in an alcohol stove? Has anyone tred it or is 15% gas make it to dangerous?

Ive used it in a wickatized stove and found that it burns too dirty like HEET in the Red bottle. E85 might be a good fuel for Doctari:D

Doctari, what stove you using for the Red bottle HEET?


Originally Posted by Doctari http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/wb_style/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?p=920751#post920751)
When I can get it I prefer Everclear (type) alcohol, it seems to burn way hotter. I have to go all the way across the river into Kentucky to get it, a whole 19 mile drive round trip. :p

Otherwise I use HEET in the red bottle, which is readily available in Ohio. I have a separate bottle for each, cause I actually like to drink Everclear! HEET not so much.

4Bears
11-27-2009, 19:28
What probably makes it sooty are the additives they put into it for stabilizing and fuel system cleaners, thanks.

Tinker
11-27-2009, 20:01
hey I'm from Canada to what i use is one of those old tobacco cans the ones that are metal with a cover and i stick roll of tolietpaper inside of it at put a small bottle of gas line antifreeze(methyl hydrate) all over the roll when it is inside and lighter er up.and if you plan on cooking on this get one of those big Heinz ketchup can and use a can opener to open it and transfer all the ketchup in to other bottles or containers and clean it good and flip it over and poke to holes on the edge of the can the part that is not open and this is for air so put the the tobacco can under the ketchup can(first light it) and the ketchup can will act as a pan to cook hamburgers or chicken or almost anything on Good LUCK if you want i can post some pictures :jump
:welcome to whiteblaze it is easier to read what you are typing if you use punctuation thanks ;)

Tinker
11-27-2009, 20:06
What probably makes it sooty are the additives they put into it for stabilizing and fuel system cleaners, thanks.
If you're referring back to the red Heet, it isn't additives, it's the isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol). It just burns dirty.

Compass
11-27-2009, 21:52
It is my understanding that Isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol is Ethyl alcohol with a bittering agent so you will not drink it and oil so it does not dry your skin. No methyl so it does not poison you. The oil probably is responsible for the soot.

Apparently each manufacturer has some flexibility as to their proprietary formula.

According to wickepedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol
In the United States, rubbing alcohol, USP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pharmacopeia) and all preparations coming under the classification of Rubbing Alcohols must be manufactured in accordance with the requirements of the US Treasury Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Treasury_Department), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_and_Firearms), using Formula 23-H (8 parts by volume of acetone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone), 1.5 parts by volume of methyl isobutyl ketone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_isobutyl_ketone), and 100 parts by volume of ethyl alcohol). It contains 97.5-100% by volume of absolute ethyl alcohol, the rest consists of water and the denaturants, with or without color additives, and perfume oils. Rubbing Alcohol contains in each 100 mL not less than 355 mg of sucrose octaacetate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucrose_octaacetate) or not less than 1.40 mg of denatonium benzoate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatonium_benzoate). The preparation may be colored with one or more color additives. A suitable stabilizer may also be added.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol#cite_note-5)

4Bears
11-27-2009, 22:01
If you're referring back to the red Heet, it isn't additives, it's the isopropyl alcohol (rubbing alcohol). It just burns dirty.

I understand that, my original post was in reference to E85 as to if it was possible to use in an alcohol stove at the risk of high jacking this post, sorry.

ARambler
11-27-2009, 22:34
It is my understanding that Isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol is Ethyl alcohol with a bittering agent so you will not drink it and oil so it does not dry your skin. No methyl so it does not poison you. The oil probably is responsible for the soot.

Apparently each manufacturer has some flexibility as to their proprietary formula.

According to wickepedia:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol
In the United States, rubbing alcohol, USP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Pharmacopeia) and all preparations coming under the classification of Rubbing Alcohols must be manufactured in accordance with the requirements of the US Treasury Department (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Treasury_Department), Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureau_of_Alcohol,_Tobacco,_and_Firearms), using Formula 23-H (8 parts by volume of acetone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acetone), 1.5 parts by volume of methyl isobutyl ketone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Methyl_isobutyl_ketone), and 100 parts by volume of ethyl alcohol). It contains 97.5-100% by volume of absolute ethyl alcohol, the rest consists of water and the denaturants, with or without color additives, and perfume oils. Rubbing Alcohol contains in each 100 mL not less than 355 mg of sucrose octaacetate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sucrose_octaacetate) or not less than 1.40 mg of denatonium benzoate (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denatonium_benzoate). The preparation may be colored with one or more color additives. A suitable stabilizer may also be added.[6] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rubbing_alcohol#cite_note-5)
Come on you only have to read to the 4th sentance:

The term "rubbing alcohol" has become a general non-specific term for either isopropyl alcohol (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol) (isopropanol) or ethyl alcohol (http://www.whiteblaze.net/wiki/Ethanol) (ethanol) rubbing-alcohol products. The confusion comes from the greater popularity of isopropyl rubbing alcohol, and as a result, individuals requesting "rubbing alcohol" generally expect and get an isopropyl alcohol product.

Rambler

ARambler
11-27-2009, 22:41
And the picture shows that "Rubbing Alcohol" is 70% or 30% water. At least red Heet is dry.
Rambler

Compass
11-27-2009, 23:32
ARambler I was refering to Tinkers post # 51 where he thought the Isopropyl alcohol itself was sooty. I was trying to point out that they are required to put etra stuff in and choose to put more stuff in as well. In other words the products vary widely from brand to brand. The % strength / water content is clearly marked on the containers.

I have no doubt Isopropyl/ rubbing alcohol is not as good as other choices but was just shedding light on why.

Dances with Mice
11-28-2009, 03:01
ARambler I was refering to Tinkers post # 51 where he thought the Isopropyl alcohol itself was sooty. I was trying to point out that they are required to put etra stuff in and choose to put more stuff in as well. In other words the products vary widely from brand to brand. The % strength / water content is clearly marked on the containers.

I have no doubt Isopropyl/ rubbing alcohol is not as good as other choices but was just shedding light on why.Pure iso will be sootier than pure meth or eth in open burns because isopropyl requires a lot more oxygen for complete combustion compared to the other fuels. Mother nature keeps the score in this game:

2 CH3OH + 3 O2 --> 2 CO2 + 4 H2O + energy (for methanol)
2 C3H7OH + 9 O2 --> 6 CO2 + 8 H20 + energy (for isopropanol)

If the iso can't get enough oxygen for compete combustion some of its carbon will appear as soot. And if there's oil, a long chain hydrocarbon with lots of carbon, it will be sooty for the same reason.

Marta
11-28-2009, 07:46
actually, you can do double duty by just carrying a proper supply of 151 rum. It will work in your alcohol stove and of course also works quite nicely when taken internally. only degenerate drunks buy everclear.

Nix on the 151 Rum idea. I actually tried that in Maine. I flew up there with my alcohol stove and no fuel. Went from liquor store to liquor store looking for Everclear. Struck out at three different stores. Concluded that Everclear and similar aren't sold there for some reason. Finally bought some 151 Rum. It burned very poorly. Too much water. Went to a hardware store and got "Marine Fuel" alcohol. Gave rum to husband for drinking.

Compass
11-28-2009, 10:21
Dances with Mice,
Thank you for the explanation.

mudhead
11-28-2009, 14:02
And the flashback to being 18. I remember when...

Only moles I deal with now are rodents.