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Gunner1776
08-10-2014, 17:23
Just curious, do we have anyone else that plans on starting NOBO in January? January 1st?

Tabasco Hikes
12-13-2014, 00:38
Just curious, do we have anyone else that plans on starting NOBO in January? January 1st?

Hey Gunner: I have flight reservations into Atlanta on January 9th with a shuttle from Hartsfield to Springer, but I will make a "game time decision" after the first of the year based on snow, ice, and temps. I've been watching the weather and it was 50 degrees on most of the southern trail today. If it remains unseasonably warm, I will step off Springer headed north.

However, if the snow and ice accumulations make it prohibitive, I will either hike the Florida trail or the Palmetto trail until mid-March. Then I will bounce up to Springer. My Jan/Mar pre-hike is to work out any kinks in my equipment and work on conditioning for an extended hike.

I thought I saw where you were considering the FT in January. Did I misread?

Tabasco

Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 10:07
Just curious, do we have anyone else that plans on starting NOBO in January? January 1st?

This should be interesting. Last year I tried to follow all the AT Trail Journals starting in January and came up with NOTHING. The Polar Vortex really sorted them out and shut down their grand plans etc.

Slo-go'en
12-13-2014, 13:50
The problem is, it might be kinda nice at the start of the trail in early January, but once you get into the real mountains of North Carolina and winter kicks in big time in February, your in trouble.

Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 13:57
The problem is, it might be kinda nice at the start of the trail in early January, but once you get into the real mountains of North Carolina and winter kicks in big time in February, your in trouble.

I love it when the Trail Journal thruhiker has 100 pre-trip posts leading up to a winter start and then they do 2 days on the trail and DISAPPEAR off the interweb and they post a short final sentence about bailing permanently. Dangit, it's never as bad as they make it out to be. It's not a Denali winter ascent.

When the bad stuff kicks in big time, know it is temporary and sit put in basecamp tent mode and wait it out. Then start up again.

Boots and Backpacks
12-13-2014, 18:28
We're start on 12/30. Don't listen to what anybody tells you about the weather. None of them know what the weather will be like, or when anything will happen. Be smart, prepared for the worst, and have extra food. We're allowing ourselves until July to finish, and that should give us plenty of time in case bad weather comes. Most winter thru-hikers aren't prepared, and the ones that think they are still aren't. We think we are, and I'm sure we'll have to make some changes. ALWAYS HAVE A DRY CHANGE OF CLOTHING FOR CAMP!!!!!!

Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 20:27
We're start on 12/30. Don't listen to what anybody tells you about the weather. None of them know what the weather will be like, or when anything will happen. Be smart, prepared for the worst, and have extra food. We're allowing ourselves until July to finish, and that should give us plenty of time in case bad weather comes. Most winter thru-hikers aren't prepared, and the ones that think they are still aren't. We think we are, and I'm sure we'll have to make some changes. ALWAYS HAVE A DRY CHANGE OF CLOTHING FOR CAMP!!!!!!

I hope to be out the same exact time so we can compare notes at the end. My goal is to find the highest mountains in TN and NC and take my new Voile snow shovel and pray for a series of stupendous blizzards with very low temps and hope for a tough couple weeks on snow-blocked ridges. I want to get snowed in but I'll have my geese and my microspikes and my Hilleberg tent. Did I mention the geese?

You're right, there's no way to know what's coming after Christmas weather-wise, but with a little luck we'll get another polar vortex and achieve some sort of nirvana above 5,000 feet. After last year's Polar Rectum I think I can handle whatever comes and eagerly want to see my fellow backpackers bail off the mountains in a howling fit. Not you guys though, but all others.:)

rocketsocks
12-13-2014, 20:37
I hope to be out the same exact time so we can compare notes at the end. My goal is to find the highest mountains in TN and NC and take my new Voile snow shovel and pray for a series of stupendous blizzards with very low temps and hope for a tough couple weeks on snow-blocked ridges. I want to get snowed in but I'll have my geese and my microspikes and my Hilleberg tent. Did I mention the geese?

You're right, there's no way to know what's coming after Christmas weather-wise, but with a little luck we'll get another polar vortex and achieve some sort of nirvana above 5,000 feet. After last year's Polar Rectum I think I can handle whatever comes and eagerly want to see my fellow backpackers bail off the mountains in a howling fit. Not you guys though, but all others.:)
I hope you do...many here love the photologs.

Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 20:43
I hope you do...many here love the photologs.

Snow pics with a tent nearby are always the best.

rocketsocks
12-13-2014, 21:06
Snow pics with a tent nearby are always the best.
Wish I'd have shot more pics in my younger days when most of my hikin' was done. I do need to find what I do have, a small collection as it is.

Honuben
12-13-2014, 22:31
I would love to read blogs from early starters and hope and wish for the best of luck and weather for all of those. Good luck to you all starting early and cold. I will be drinking my coffee in my undies as you having fun outsde.

Boots and Backpacks
12-14-2014, 11:23
I hope to be out the same exact time so we can compare notes at the end. My goal is to find the highest mountains in TN and NC and take my new Voile snow shovel and pray for a series of stupendous blizzards with very low temps and hope for a tough couple weeks on snow-blocked ridges. I want to get snowed in but I'll have my geese and my microspikes and my Hilleberg tent. Did I mention the geese?

You're right, there's no way to know what's coming after Christmas weather-wise, but with a little luck we'll get another polar vortex and achieve some sort of nirvana above 5,000 feet. After last year's Polar Rectum I think I can handle whatever comes and eagerly want to see my fellow backpackers bail off the mountains in a howling fit. Not you guys though, but all others.:)

When looking through all the threads of people who plan on starting around the New Year. You can tell who the ones are that are ready for hell, and those who aren't. We're carrying all the warmth (we hope) that we think we'll need. Some people should wait until March to start, especially those that are asking what the weather will be like. If you don't know what the weather is going to be like in January or February you clearly haven't done your homework, and that scares me. All anybody knows is that it's going to be cold, and colder than hell some nights. I see people starting in March with nothing more than a base layer and running shorts, and I wonder just how prepared they actually are?

We're still debating on if we should pack in a roll up sled or not. Sledding down Max Patch does sound like a blast in free powder.

Tipi Walter
12-14-2014, 11:40
When looking through all the threads of people who plan on starting around the New Year. You can tell who the ones are that are ready for hell, and those who aren't. We're carrying all the warmth (we hope) that we think we'll need. Some people should wait until March to start, especially those that are asking what the weather will be like. If you don't know what the weather is going to be like in January or February you clearly haven't done your homework, and that scares me. All anybody knows is that it's going to be cold, and colder than hell some nights. I see people starting in March with nothing more than a base layer and running shorts, and I wonder just how prepared they actually are?

We're still debating on if we should pack in a roll up sled or not. Sledding down Max Patch does sound like a blast in free powder.

Severe cold is one thing and a backpacker willing to carry the gear (geese, bag, pad etc) can get thru a "coldstorm" even down to -10F. Deep snow on mountain ridges and getting thru leaning collapsed rhododendron is another thing entirely and it is what usually causes most backpackers to bail into the closest town.

I call it being "land locked" when you're camping on top of a 4,000 or 5,000 foot ridge after an all-night snowstorm with 2 feet of the white stuff. Where are you now? You're locked inside Miss Nature's deep freeze whereby going in any direction is a tough slog requiring herculean effort. Postholing in 2-3 feet of snow is exquisitely demented and I feel lucky to go 3 or 4 miles in the stuff, and then needing my snow shovel if I plan on staying on the ridge to make another night's camp. I like to dig out to the ground for my tent.

The AT is known as the Green Tunnel and here the other big problem comes with a heavy new snow---Snowdowns. The green tunnel collapses on itself with heavy snow and you have a 3 feet high trail tunnel to get thru which must be done on your hands and knees with a pack on your back. What fun. Wear your rain jacket otherwise all the snow will fall down your neck. And prepare to break a sweat. And practice your swear words at home now as you'll be using them soon enough.

Another phenom happens for winter backpacking---You get caught in a nasty winter storm and lose hope that it will ever end. You set up your tent as the temps drop to Zero and the tent gets set in concrete and 2 feet of snow falls and you wake up to the bleak prospect of going no where this day. Here is where it becomes a mental game as you need to sit put and zero out a couple days until conditions change for the better and you can move. The bleak "all is lost!" mindset is what causes most backpackers to bail off the trail and do everything possible to get into a town. DON'T DO IT!

Boots and Backpacks
12-14-2014, 12:08
Severe cold is one thing and a backpacker willing to carry the gear (geese, bag, pad etc) can get thru a "coldstorm" even down to -10F. Deep snow on mountain ridges and getting thru leaning collapsed rhododendron is another thing entirely and it is what usually causes most backpackers to bail into the closest town.

I call it being "land locked" when you're camping on top of a 4,000 or 5,000 foot ridge after an all-night snowstorm with 2 feet of the white stuff. Where are you now? You're locked inside Miss Nature's deep freeze whereby going in any direction is a tough slog requiring herculean effort. Postholing in 2-3 feet of snow is exquisitely demented and I feel lucky to go 3 or 4 miles in the stuff, and then needing my snow shovel if I plan on staying on the ridge to make another night's camp. I like to dig out to the ground for my tent.

The AT is known as the Green Tunnel and here the other big problem comes with a heavy new snow---Snowdowns. The green tunnel collapses on itself with heavy snow and you have a 3 feet high trail tunnel to get thru which must be done on your hands and knees with a pack on your back. What fun. Wear your rain jacket otherwise all the snow will fall down your neck. And prepare to break a sweat. And practice your swear words at home now as you'll be using them soon enough.

Another phenom happens for winter backpacking---You get caught in a nasty winter storm and lose hope that it will ever end. You set up your tent as the temps drop to Zero and the tent gets set in concrete and 2 feet of snow falls and you wake up to the bleak prospect of going no where this day. Here is where it becomes a mental game as you need to sit put and zero out a couple days until conditions change for the better and you can move. The bleak "all is lost!" mindset is what causes most backpackers to bail off the trail and do everything possible to get into a town. DON'T DO IT!

We've been there before, and on the AT as well. We had a bad storm that caught us the way from Davenport to Hot Springs. It dumped about 18" of snow on us over night, lots of down trees, and plenty of post holing after a couple days. Snow stops falling, it melts, and the next day will come. We're not afraid to sit in town for a couple days it we have to, and we're prepared to be stuff in a shelter/tent from time to time. These are the facts of life when you're living on the AT for months on end. I'm luck to have someone with me, and we'll push each other too. One thing that always keeps us going is getting to that next town. If it's freezing cold, or you're just having a crappy section. Think about that next town, the hot shower, cold beer, and PIZZA. I know we're going to see some bad weather, but we'll be as prepared as we can be.

We have hiking clothes, and camp clothes that are in a dry sack. Camp clothes will include mid-weight base layer (top & bottom), down pants, and or rain pants if need be. Top is just about the same with a mid-weight, wool sweater, down jacket, and rain jacket if need be. Separate camp socks, down booties, zero degree bags, and insulated pads.

It's going to be a blast.

Cadenza
12-14-2014, 12:49
I understand through hiking the AT is a different kind of experience, but the whole concept of "getting to the next town" is so foreign to me.
My whole reason for being in the woods is to get OUT OF TOWN.

Back in 2009 and 2010 my best friend spent a year camping continuously in the Cherokee National Forest. Though he has returned to civilization (if you can call the New York City area civilized!) he still reminisces about being in the woods.
I'm thinking about dropping out of the rat race and retiring to the woods. For as long as I can function, manage my gear, cook, gather firewood, and survive,.....I see little point in getting to the next town.

kayak karl
12-14-2014, 12:56
i don't look at it as "getting to the next town", but the next resupply. was never in a hurry, but if i have 5 days of food i would like to be to the next town in 5 days, give or take a few hours.

Tipi Walter
12-14-2014, 13:18
I understand through hiking the AT is a different kind of experience, but the whole concept of "getting to the next town" is so foreign to me.
My whole reason for being in the woods is to get OUT OF TOWN.

Back in 2009 and 2010 my best friend spent a year camping continuously in the Cherokee National Forest. Though he has returned to civilization (if you can call the New York City area civilized!) he still reminisces about being in the woods.
I'm thinking about dropping out of the rat race and retiring to the woods. For as long as I can function, manage my gear, cook, gather firewood, and survive,.....I see little point in getting to the next town.

I thought about making the same comment as yours---but then I realized this is a Class of 2015 AT thruhike thread and ya gotta remember, the AT folk love to carry minimal food and seem motivated solely to reach the next town and the next hot pizza. This is foreign to me also but it's the way thruhikers roll as we will never get them staying out with 21 days worth of food and avoiding yellow blazing and hitching as much as possible.

Frequent resupply and very frequent motel stays and hot restaurant food (and the UL packs which go with such hiking) is the norm nowadays, especially for winter backpackers. It's really a form of "snippet backpacking" whereby they take tiny bites of uninterrupted "wilderness" travel and then bail for resupply, motel stays and laundry mats.

I read a book called Awol On the Appalachian Trail by David Miller and was blown away by his near constant town visits, motel stays and frequent slackpacking. Of course, here's an apt quote from him on page 122---

"Sometimes I want to be done faster . . . ." DAVID MILLER.

And this jewel---

"Why did I leave town? I could still be sleeping in a comfortable motel bed in Front Royal." DAVID MILLER, page 147.

It boggles the mind.

4shot
12-14-2014, 14:05
the one thing about winter camping that too often gets overlooked (imo) is the incredible amount of downtime in the winter when it gets dark at 5 - 6 PM. I don't like night hiking so I like to set up about an hour or so before dark.When temperatures gets to freezing and below, a fire that is generated by the sticks and twigs one can collect around a campsite doesn't generate sufficient heat. I take a headlamp and try to read some but I have been in my bag as early as 5PM. I have woken up to handle the inevitable "nature call" at night thinking it was probably around 1 or 2 am but my watch tells me it is only 9:48 PM or so. That makes for a very long night. And the one thing I most dislike about winter hiking. I do love the absence of bugs. and people.

Tipi Walter
12-14-2014, 14:42
the one thing about winter camping that too often gets overlooked (imo) is the incredible amount of downtime in the winter when it gets dark at 5 - 6 PM. I don't like night hiking so I like to set up about an hour or so before dark.When temperatures gets to freezing and below, a fire that is generated by the sticks and twigs one can collect around a campsite doesn't generate sufficient heat. I take a headlamp and try to read some but I have been in my bag as early as 5PM. I have woken up to handle the inevitable "nature call" at night thinking it was probably around 1 or 2 am but my watch tells me it is only 9:48 PM or so. That makes for a very long night. And the one thing I most dislike about winter hiking. I do love the absence of bugs. and people.

You're right about the down time. There's still many hours of daylight for hiking though, but then again, the hardest part of winter backpacking is packing up in the morning. It tests the feet and hands right off the bat from a sitting state and winter is all about the feet and hands.

I have no trouble with the added hours of darkness as I like to read so I take books or "internet book rolls" to read and BURN BABY BURN. Nothing is carried for long but in the meantime I get in some good reading. And then there's the little Sangean radio with the headphones and/or speaker. Then there's the trail journal which requires some effort to keep up to date. And then there's the camera to ponder and review.

And food galore---always snacking or cooking up something---morning tea with honey, evening pot cozy meal---no-cook foods the rest of the time.

Boots and Backpacks
12-14-2014, 15:01
You're right about the down time. There's still many hours of daylight for hiking though, but then again, the hardest part of winter backpacking is packing up in the morning. It tests the feet and hands right off the bat from a sitting state and winter is all about the feet and hands.

I have no trouble with the added hours of darkness as I like to read so I take books or "internet book rolls" to read and BURN BABY BURN. Nothing is carried for long but in the meantime I get in some good reading. And then there's the little Sangean radio with the headphones and/or speaker. Then there's the trail journal which requires some effort to keep up to date. And then there's the camera to ponder and review.

And food galore---always snacking or cooking up something---morning tea with honey, evening pot cozy meal---no-cook foods the rest of the time.

Nothing worse than having to put on frozen boots in morning after you break them free from the ground. The first mile is like walking on a 2x4 until the thaw out.

JumpMaster Blaster
12-14-2014, 21:01
Hey Gunner: I have flight reservations into Atlanta on January 9th with a shuttle from Hartsfield to Springer, but I will make a "game time decision" after the first of the year based on snow, ice, and temps. I've been watching the weather and it was 50 degrees on most of the southern trail today. If it remains unseasonably warm, I will step off Springer headed north.

However, if the snow and ice accumulations make it prohibitive, I will either hike the Florida trail or the Palmetto trail until mid-March. Then I will bounce up to Springer. My Jan/Mar pre-hike is to work out any kinks in my equipment and work on conditioning for an extended hike.

I thought I saw where you were considering the FT in January. Did I misread?

Tabasco

Hey Teach, you're not too far from me. Good luck on your hike!

JumpMaster Blaster
12-14-2014, 21:05
Severe cold is one thing and a backpacker willing to carry the gear (geese, bag, pad etc) can get thru a "coldstorm" even down to -10F. Deep snow on mountain ridges and getting thru leaning collapsed rhododendron is another thing entirely and it is what usually causes most backpackers to bail into the closest town.

I call it being "land locked" when you're camping on top of a 4,000 or 5,000 foot ridge after an all-night snowstorm with 2 feet of the white stuff. Where are you now? You're locked inside Miss Nature's deep freeze whereby going in any direction is a tough slog requiring herculean effort. Postholing in 2-3 feet of snow is exquisitely demented and I feel lucky to go 3 or 4 miles in the stuff, and then needing my snow shovel if I plan on staying on the ridge to make another night's camp. I like to dig out to the ground for my tent.

The AT is known as the Green Tunnel and here the other big problem comes with a heavy new snow---Snowdowns. The green tunnel collapses on itself with heavy snow and you have a 3 feet high trail tunnel to get thru which must be done on your hands and knees with a pack on your back. What fun. Wear your rain jacket otherwise all the snow will fall down your neck. And prepare to break a sweat. And practice your swear words at home now as you'll be using them soon enough.

Another phenom happens for winter backpacking---You get caught in a nasty winter storm and lose hope that it will ever end. You set up your tent as the temps drop to Zero and the tent gets set in concrete and 2 feet of snow falls and you wake up to the bleak prospect of going no where this day. Here is where it becomes a mental game as you need to sit put and zero out a couple days until conditions change for the better and you can move. The bleak "all is lost!" mindset is what causes most backpackers to bail off the trail and do everything possible to get into a town. DON'T DO IT!

You have an exquisite way with words. You are the man, Walter.

Tipi Walter
12-14-2014, 21:18
Nothing worse than having to put on frozen boots in morning after you break them free from the ground. The first mile is like walking on a 2x4 until the thaw out.

One time near the end of a long winter trip, like Day 20 or something, I woke up to a surprise late season snowstorm with temps at around 12F and dangit I forgot to unlace and pull apart my soaked Asolo Fugitive boots the night before. Stupid move. It was my last day and I had a 6 mile hike out to pickup evac so I had to get moving. It took me 20 minutes of squirming to force my poor feet into these torture implements and hiking out was a joke but after a couple miles they started to thaw and got flexible.

Solution? Always pull apart your boot laces down to the bottom and pull the tongue out and spread the suckers apart.

JBandStacy2014
12-15-2014, 00:05
For the record, Gunner IS on the trail...he has been on the trail for a week.... ;)

--- Gunner AKA Tear Drop ;)

Boots and Backpacks
12-15-2014, 09:51
For the record, Gunner IS on the trail...he has been on the trail for a week.... ;)

--- Gunner AKA Tear Drop ;)

Are you guy getting on the trail tomorrow? How about your pack, get it taken care of?

Do you have an ETA on when you "think" you might be in Hot Springs? That's going to be our first major stop, and we'll be there for a couple days.

JBandStacy2014
12-15-2014, 09:55
Taking a Zero at Neel Gap tomorrow to get my pack fixed...Then coming back for Blood Mountain...Still not 100% sure about hot springs, but I can tell you this much...we are hiking slow...5-6 miles per day.....something tells me that you WILL catch up to us. I know we will eventually get our trail legs, but we are in no hurry....

Roamin Biff
12-15-2014, 11:57
I have a question on Winter hiking when temps drop below freezing. How do you keep your water from freezing while hiking?

Originally planning a January NOBO Start, I did a dry run of winter multi-day back-country hiking in Shenandoah in November and Mother Nature unexpectedly dropped 15 inches of snow on me. I had good gear and I definitely learned how to use it and survive, but the biggest thing that surprised me was that my water bladder system froze. I set up camp but the wood was too snowy to set up a fire. My camp stove fuel would burn hot enough to melt snow to drink and overnight I foolishly left my water system outside of my sleeping bag as it was an ice block. The next day it was even more of an ice block. Needless to say it was a long long struggle back to civilization and I learned a lot, but the biggest thing that scares me is dehydration. Sucking on snow and ice sickles can only go so far.

Any pointers on how to keep the water unfrozen? I'd prefer to never have to go through that again if at all possible.

squeezebox
12-15-2014, 12:10
I'm wondering how many Jan. & Feb. folks are gonna bring snowshoes? 5 lb wt. penalty is substantial, but the only other choice is post holeing

Boots and Backpacks
12-15-2014, 12:10
I have a question on Winter hiking when temps drop below freezing. How do you keep your water from freezing while hiking?

Originally planning a January NOBO Start, I did a dry run of winter multi-day back-country hiking in Shenandoah in November and Mother Nature unexpectedly dropped 15 inches of snow on me. I had good gear and I definitely learned how to use it and survive, but the biggest thing that surprised me was that my water bladder system froze. I set up camp but the wood was too snowy to set up a fire. My camp stove fuel would burn hot enough to melt snow to drink and overnight I foolishly left my water system outside of my sleeping bag as it was an ice block. The next day it was even more of an ice block. Needless to say it was a long long struggle back to civilization and I learned a lot, but the biggest thing that scares me is dehydration. Sucking on snow and ice sickles can only go so far.

Any pointers on how to keep the water unfrozen? I'd prefer to never have to go through that again if at all possible.

Your bladder isn't going to freeze during the day, but the once the tube leaves your pack it will. I've tried the insulator sleeves, and mouth piece covers with zero luck. At camp you can wrap the bladder in any clothing you're not wear, put it in your pack, or even sleep with it. I wouldn't bring a bladder on a winter hike just for that reason. We're using 40 Below (https://www.40below.com/products_detail.php?ProductID=27) insulators for our bottle, and you can also keep them in your pack. The closer they are to heat the better off you are. Getting your stove off the ground will give it better heating in snow. I use a piece of an old closed cell foam pad to put between my fuel canister and the ground. I had problems with it heating when it was cold out prior to doing that.

Another thing you can do is put your water bottle in a sock or two when you're hiking.

Boots and Backpacks
12-15-2014, 12:12
I'd rather post hole that lug around snow shoes. Not like the pace is going to be much faster either. Using snow shoes, and carrying a 35lb pack sucks. It'll be a slow day no matter how you look at it.

Tipi Walter
12-15-2014, 12:17
Never ever use a bladder system to store water in the winter. By bladder system I mean the port tubes like Platypus etc. I use two water containers on my winter trips---a 52 oz Nalgene tritan bottle and a Platypus 2.5 liter bladder. Bite valves and rubber tubes have no place on winter trips.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-Yellow-Mt/i-KcWCZW6/0/L/Trip%20156%20209-L.jpg
Here are my two jugs in action. The bladder is big enough that when it is full of water it will not freeze solid unless the temps drop radically to 10F or below. After it is full I bring it into the tent and wrap it in my down parka which keeps it thawed thru the night even at low temps.

When it's really cold, like subzero numbers at -10F or below, I fill my cook pot with fresh water and let it sit in the tent vestibule overnight. My bottle and bladder are empty. When I wake up in the morning I immediately put the frozen pot of water on the stove and cook up morning tea and have hot water for the day's hiking. The bigger the pot the better, like a 2 liter pot. Also excellent for melting snow.

Some people like to take their water jugs and bury them upside down in the snow. I've never done this and instead do insulating things for them inside my tent, like putting the full Nalgene bottle in a boot and covering the boot and bottle with my down parka. So it helps to have a big warm down parka for winter backpacking as it is not worn while inside the bag and can be used as an insulating wrap for your water thru the night.

Connie
12-15-2014, 12:46
I have never had neoprene keep water from freezing.

I put my water supply in smaller containers, inside the sleeping bag. If one freezes to the extent I can't get water out of the container, I have the other water container.

I have heard some people heat the water, first.

Oslohiker
12-15-2014, 12:48
Severe cold is one thing and a backpacker willing to carry the gear (geese, bag, pad etc) can get thru a "coldstorm" even down to -10F. Deep snow on mountain ridges and getting thru leaning collapsed rhododendron is another thing entirely and it is what usually causes most backpackers to bail into the closest town.

I call it being "land locked" when you're camping on top of a 4,000 or 5,000 foot ridge after an all-night snowstorm with 2 feet of the white stuff. Where are you now? You're locked inside Miss Nature's deep freeze whereby going in any direction is a tough slog requiring herculean effort. Postholing in 2-3 feet of snow is exquisitely demented and I feel lucky to go 3 or 4 miles in the stuff, and then needing my snow shovel if I plan on staying on the ridge to make another night's camp. I like to dig out to the ground for my tent.

The AT is known as the Green Tunnel and here the other big problem comes with a heavy new snow---Snowdowns. The green tunnel collapses on itself with heavy snow and you have a 3 feet high trail tunnel to get thru which must be done on your hands and knees with a pack on your back. What fun. Wear your rain jacket otherwise all the snow will fall down your neck. And prepare to break a sweat. And practice your swear words at home now as you'll be using them soon enough.

Another phenom happens for winter backpacking---You get caught in a nasty winter storm and lose hope that it will ever end. You set up your tent as the temps drop to Zero and the tent gets set in concrete and 2 feet of snow falls and you wake up to the bleak prospect of going no where this day. Here is where it becomes a mental game as you need to sit put and zero out a couple days until conditions change for the better and you can move. The bleak "all is lost!" mindset is what causes most backpackers to bail off the trail and do everything possible to get into a town. DON'T DO IT!

Have you ever considered taking skies with you?

The challenging spots: How dangerous are they? How many are they? Where are they? Can they be conquered with any equipment when the conditions are at the worst or do you just have to wait it out?

Oslohiker
12-15-2014, 13:00
Nothing worse than having to put on frozen boots in morning after you break them free from the ground. The first mile is like walking on a 2x4 until the thaw out.

You bring a warm enough sleeping bag and keep the boots inside it during the night (after removing the snow and ice). They will be dry and warm in the morning.

Boots and Backpacks
12-15-2014, 13:32
You bring a warm enough sleeping bag and keep the boots inside it during the night (after removing the snow and ice). They will be dry and warm in the morning.

What about getting the sleeping bag wet/damp? Or would they both be completely dry by morning?

I guess it really depends on the situation, an dhow wet they are.

BaxterBear
12-15-2014, 13:48
Please do not start Jan 1st unless you have extensive winter hiking experience. Trust me on this, do not ruin the dream you have.

Tipi Walter
12-15-2014, 13:58
Have you ever considered taking skies with you?

The challenging spots: How dangerous are they? How many are they? Where are they? Can they be conquered with any equipment when the conditions are at the worst or do you just have to wait it out?

Never used skis or snowshoes in the Southeast Mountains, although many people like to do cross country skiing on dayhikes. Skis would not work on the trails I hike---microspikes yes, not skis. Why? Because the trails are just too rugged, too vertical, too rocky, too winding, too steep. You go up on a 3,000 foot climb, you descend on a 3,000 foot drop. In the ice and snow microspikes are mandatory.

Snowshoes?? Sure, they may help in 2-3 feet of snow on the ridges. Or maybe not. Wearing a 75 lb pack with snowshoes in deep snow on these mountain trails could be just as bad as not having snowshoes. Postholing is gonna happen one way or the other. I have never seen any backpacker in the Southeast mountains wearing snowshoes. We just don't carry them.

We do posthole and battle thru snowdowns and collapsed snow-loaded brush. We don't have to wait it out but then we won't be going far but a mile further up the trail is better than sitting put for it all to melt. If a person chooses to pack up and move in deep snow he won't get far and must be prepared to shovel out a next campsite for his tent and be happy to put in 3 or 4 miles a day. Or maybe just 1 mile a day. At least you're moving. To me it's better than sitting put for 4 days, although on one trip I got hit by a series of 3 major snowstorms and spent 4 days on an open bald at 5,300 feet and went 2 miles and spent another 7 days in a high gap at 4,500 feet. Talk about cabin fever.

The story of Steven Ainsworth should be in everyone's mind. He was caught in a freak 3 foot snowstorm in the Smokies and was inside his tent with no visible trail and surrounded by collapsed brush. Solution? Sit put for 7 or 8 days and wait it out. His solution? Dial up 911 rescue and get helicoptered out. See---


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/2012/11/05/the-amazing-hurricane-sandy-rescue-you-may-not-have-heard-of/

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/12/12/steve-ainsworth-hiker-appalachian-trail_n_2285792.html

And last year during the polar vortex we had this fun event---

http://www.smokymountainnews.com/news/item/12325-a-winter-rescue-rangers-trek-into-frigid-snowy-darkness-to-save-hikers

http://hikinginthesmokys.blogspot.com/2014/01/three-hikers-rescued-in-great-smoky.html

And back in 2005 this report---
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/archive/index.php/t-7207.html

Tipi Walter
12-15-2014, 14:01
What about getting the sleeping bag wet/damp? Or would they both be completely dry by morning?

I guess it really depends on the situation, an dhow wet they are.

I never put anything inside my bag except your's truly---no water bottles (they could leak and a dry down bag is my last line of survival), no boots, no extra clothing etc. My dirty muddy wet boots are opened up properly as described and must fend for themselves w/o any warmth from me. See ya in the morning guys.

Tipi Walter
12-15-2014, 14:03
Please do not start Jan 1st unless you have extensive winter hiking experience. Trust me on this, do not ruin the dream you have.

I believe Boots and Backpacks can handle it as they seem to have alot of experience. What's the worse that can happen? -10F storm with 2 feet of snow---so they get to the closest road and hike/hitch into a town. Simple. Stubbornly sticking with a route and staying put for the duration is the option for those of us who are crazy. Do not ruin the dream by going into a town!!

Boots and Backpacks
12-15-2014, 14:48
Please do not start Jan 1st unless you have extensive winter hiking experience. Trust me on this, do not ruin the dream you have.

Don't worry about us! We're prepared as we can, we're know what could happen, and we're not afraid to stay put to wait it out.


I believe Boots and Backpacks can handle it as they seem to have alot of experience. What's the worse that can happen? -10F storm with 2 feet of snow---so they get to the closest road and hike/hitch into a town. Simple. Stubbornly sticking with a route and staying put for the duration is the option for those of us who are crazy. Do not ruin the dream by going into a town!!

It's going to be trying on us, but we'll be ready for it. Who likes hiking in the spring and summer anyways? Too many damn bugs out then!

Oslohiker
12-15-2014, 17:14
My dirty muddy wet boots are opened up properly as described and must fend for themselves w/o any warmth from me. See ya in the morning guys.

Well, I am talking about winter conditions sub-freeing. You would not get any mud on them then, since the mud would be solid. If it is over freezing the boots would not be very cold, and the boots would not be a problem.

Oslohiker
12-15-2014, 17:39
Snowshoes?? Sure, they may help in 2-3 feet of snow on the ridges. Or maybe not. Wearing a 75 lb pack with snowshoes in deep snow on these mountain trails could be just as bad as not having snowshoes. Postholing is gonna happen one way or the other. I have never seen any backpacker in the Southeast mountains wearing snowshoes. We just don't carry them.


I am still tempted to try. With antarctic expedition skies with steel edges you can go pretty much everywhere... but not on ice, where the microspikes may do the job. I would claim that if you can move on snowshoes you can do it with skies, especially with climbing skins. I get the rocky ting, but if you feel the rocks you can probably walk in the biits without hassle. Collapsed brush could of course be a deal breaker.

Oslohiker
12-15-2014, 20:00
Well, I am talking about winter conditions sub-freeing. You would not get any mud on them then, since the mud would be solid. If it is over freezing the boots would not be very cold, and the boots would not be a problem.

I also have to add that (in Norway) there are two schools.... drying or not drying the boots in the sleeping bag. I dry them in the sleeping bag, others do not. Yes, the sleeping bag will get wetter as the days go by, but it will happen anyway because of body perspiration. The difference with shoes inside is small (you wipe of the outside of the boots). This is still an emergency behaviour, because I use the stove inside the tent (don't do it if you don't know what you are doing). There I cock the meals, and dry what I can during that time (and maybe still put the boots and and socks inside the sleeping bag). In winter time I also cary a candle light I can hang in the inner tent. That keeps the spirit up during the dark winter (here we have about 5-6 hours daylight at this time) and it gives away a surpassing amount of warmth.


Winter time is not a season to save weight. Extra food, A LOT of fuel, a full extra shift of clothes (except the outer shell). You will sweat in winter anyway (try to limit it as much as possible), the trick is to put on dry clothes when you reach camp (and after you have put up the tent)

kayak karl
12-15-2014, 20:32
i never leave water in a container over night that isn't in my hammock with me or buried in snow. a frozen container is worthless till you can thaw it and that may take most of the day.

Connie
12-15-2014, 20:35
Our tents are very much air-tight. I had a candle lantern make little oxygen available, or, maybe it was carbon monoxide. I haven't used one since. I am experienced. I don't have the open fire of a cook stove inside a tent, or, a tent vestibule. The tent-stoves with a stovepipe and asbestos stove jack may be made safe.

http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4539&p=31933&hilit=Hunters+tents#p31933
and
http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4539&hilit=Hunters+tents&start=400

Our mountain trails have practically no straight sections for cross-country skis. Different mountains.

Tipi Walter
12-15-2014, 23:37
Our mountain trails have practically no straight sections for cross-country skis. Different mountains.

I'd love to see some guy with skis and a 75 lb pack do the Upper Slickrock Creek trail (aka Nutbuster) in the snow, or the North Fork or South Fork Citico trails or Brush Mt or Jenkins Meadow or Naked Ground trail or Hangover Lead South. Or Slickrock Creek with its 12 crossings.

Here's an example: Put a foot of snow on a 10 story flight of stairs. Now go up with your pack and skis. And then come down the same way.

freightliner
12-16-2014, 01:13
I would use Hot hands to make dinner and set up camp. It kept my hands from going totally numb. Just before I would crawl in my bag for the night I would toss them in my boots and they would be dry in the morning. The only thing I put in my sleeping bag is the socks I hike with because well who wants to put on freezing cold socks in the morning

There sure is a big difference between Southern Appalachian Mountains and Northern Appalachian Mountains. Nobody would go out hiking in deep snow without a good pair snowshoes or cross-country skis. We even have the catamount Trail that follows the AT and LT that they thru cross country ski every year. It's very steep but not straight up and down. Their backpacks are more like in 30 to 40 pound range so it's a little easier to ski. You also don't have to spend every night out in the woods because there are B&Bs that are easy to get to right on the trail if you wanted that sort of thing.

One thing I also learned was only leave enough water in my water bottle in case I need a drink at night. If there was anything frozen on the bottom in the morning I just left it there and topped off the rest with water I would need for my hike. Winter hiking is all about the routine you got to get things done quickly.

Oslohiker
12-16-2014, 05:22
Our tents are very much air-tight. I had a candle lantern make little oxygen available, or, maybe it was carbon monoxide. I haven't used one since. I am experienced. I don't have the open fire of a cook stove inside a tent, or, a tent vestibule. The tent-stoves with a stovepipe and asbestos stove jack may be made safe.

http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4539&p=31933&hilit=Hunters+tents#p31933
and
http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4539&hilit=Hunters+tents&start=400

Our mountain trails have practically no straight sections for cross-country skis. Different mountains.

Yes, you need a tent with good ventilation when you use a stove. Like Tipi Walter I also use Hilleberg tents, which all have excellent ventilation. I guess not every tent are suited for stove use. Again, you have to know what you are doing. It is possible to die from stove use in tents. But as far as I know it has not happened for decades in country, where this practice is normal. A candle light would on the other hand hardly steal enough oxygen for suffocation. Still with ventilation the tent will warm up by a stove.

When skiing you are not depended on straight sections, because you can change direction with every move. This is not the Olympics.

Oslohiker
12-16-2014, 06:01
I'd love to see some guy with skis and a 75 lb pack do the Upper Slickrock Creek trail (aka Nutbuster) in the snow, or the North Fork or South Fork Citico trails or Brush Mt or Jenkins Meadow or Naked Ground trail or Hangover Lead South. Or Slickrock Creek with its 12 crossings.

Here's an example: Put a foot of snow on a 10 story flight of stairs. Now go up with your pack and skis. And then come down the same way.

Free skiing in the wilderness involves also strapping the skies on the backpack in challenging sections. But on the other hand most people don't know how versatile skies are. When serving in the Norwegian military ground troops use skies in the winter to move around (that is why we have the biathlon event in the Olympics). Although those skies are horrible, it is a reason that we use skies, it is because they are very usable. Norway are almost an all mountain country, with rugged sections many places. With top equipment skiing equipment you can buy today and climbing skins you can climb up pretty step sections. If you can walk up the section without having to use your hands you can probably ski it.

So there will be sections that are un-skiable, but they will probably be few and far between. But as I understand most of the time there will be almost no snow in the south AT, even in January. What I am speculating in is that strapping on some skies on the backpack would still be favorable, to use when heavy snowfall occur. But on the other hand I have never been on the AT, except checking it out a few hundred meters in the summertime without any equipment with me. Your information (and others) are therefor very valuable. I am just putting forward a hypothesis.... but I still think it is good. I think the real show stopper here would be sections that are to dangerous when icy, but I don't know.

JohnnySnook
12-16-2014, 06:33
Oslohiker - I'm sure your prepared to survive in winter. My family is from Sweden and Estonia. Both very cold countries. Daylight during the winter half of what the US experiences. Listen to what those here say but also don't discount what you know. If it doesn't work than you can jump off trail but you'll face nothing worse than conditions in Norway.
The people of Norway and sweden are true outdoors people. I was going to say men but that wouldn't be right.
When my cousins visited last year from Sweden I was amazed at the outdoor adventures they take. Weeks in the woods during winter with an 6 and 8 year old children. Skying, hiking, kayaking, mountain biking. They do it all. The culture in much different on the other side. The outdoors is ingrained in them. Its part of the culture. On average they are much fitter and intune with nature than 99% of the people in the US.
Oslo - do what you do. I have no doubt you'll secede.

Heres some links about my grandfather John Wictorin that I was was never able to meet as he died before my time but my grandmother and mother have always had me the mountains skiing, hiking, or rafting rivers. After my youth I moved on to surfing the world. These days I have a calling to be in the mountains. I plan to hike the AT in 2015.

God, I really wish he hadn't of passed away without us spending time together and sharing our love of the outdoors!

He was an avid hiker, nordic skier, and an olympic ski jumper from sweden who relocated NY/NY and has had may nordic events held in his name at Bear Mountain! I often look at his awards, some gold plated, and hear events held in his name, and wish I could of meet him.

He was inducted into the US ski Hall of Fame in 1970.

http://www.skihall.com/index.php?_a=document&doc_id=11&id=343

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1982&dat=19700115&id=qYJGAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zywNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4133,2344277

Edited - The trails here may not be as friendly to skiers. Just be prepared to ditch the skies and only hike. I have never hiked the trail but Tipi loves heading out in a snow storm and never leaving the same campsite for days. Something I'm sure isn't in your blood.

Oslohiker
12-16-2014, 17:26
Oslohiker - I'm sure your prepared to survive in winter. My family is from Sweden and Estonia. Both very cold countries. Daylight during the winter half of what the US experiences. Listen to what those here say but also don't discount what you know. If it doesn't work than you can jump off trail but you'll face nothing worse than conditions in Norway.
The people of Norway and sweden are true outdoors people. I was going to say men but that wouldn't be right.
When my cousins visited last year from Sweden I was amazed at the outdoor adventures they take. Weeks in the woods during winter with an 6 and 8 year old children. Skying, hiking, kayaking, mountain biking. They do it all. The culture in much different on the other side. The outdoors is ingrained in them. Its part of the culture. On average they are much fitter and intune with nature than 99% of the people in the US.
Oslo - do what you do. I have no doubt you'll secede.

Heres some links about my grandfather John Wictorin that I was was never able to meet as he died before my time but my grandmother and mother have always had me the mountains skiing, hiking, or rafting rivers. After my youth I moved on to surfing the world. These days I have a calling to be in the mountains. I plan to hike the AT in 2015.

God, I really wish he hadn't of passed away without us spending time together and sharing our love of the outdoors!

He was an avid hiker, nordic skier, and an olympic ski jumper from sweden who relocated NY/NY and has had may nordic events held in his name at Bear Mountain! I often look at his awards, some gold plated, and hear events held in his name, and wish I could of meet him.

He was inducted into the US ski Hall of Fame in 1970.

http://www.skihall.com/index.php?_a=document&doc_id=11&id=343

http://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1982&dat=19700115&id=qYJGAAAAIBAJ&sjid=zywNAAAAIBAJ&pg=4133,2344277

Edited - The trails here may not be as friendly to skiers. Just be prepared to ditch the skies and only hike. I have never hiked the trail but Tipi loves heading out in a snow storm and never leaving the same campsite for days. Something I'm sure isn't in your blood.

You are spot on when it comes to Norwegians. When I grew up everybody cross-country skied. And go skiing in the weekend are a normal activity. I would say most Norwegians are in the wilderness several times a year. And about half the population go up in the high mountains to ski every Easter. And in the high mountains the weather can really turn bad. I have several times spent days at end in the in the tent waiting for the storm to end. Spending time in the tent when the food and fuel are about to end is not a good feeling, knowing the weather outside would kill if you tried to break camo. But if you are an avid skier, have the right equipment nothing bad happens. Most deaths happens because of avalanches (https://www.google.com/search?client=safari&rls=en&q=avalanches&spell=1&sa=X&ei=naKQVLHROMK_ywO0yIGADQ&ved=0CBsQBSgA)...

Again, I am looking for a combination of walking and skiing. I would still pack extra food and fuel. I don't mind staying put for several days. Tipi loves would probably meet his match in me....

Tipi Walter
12-16-2014, 18:23
Oslohiker---We always comment on what we know from the geography we are most familiar with. You are right to say the Southeast mountains in January are often snow-less, or then there's 2 feet of snow on the high ground. But around here, the higher you go the better chance there is to see snow and to posthole in snow. Go down 3,000 feet and there's nothing.

Plus, carrying skis strapped to a pack would be a REAL challenge in the Southeast forests I backpack because the trails are green tunnels and overhead clearance is usually too low for anything sticking above the pack. It would be like hiking under rhododendron with an umbrella.

Connie
12-17-2014, 18:36
Everything I have seen of Norway, from famous Blog to pictures online, I would think Norway is ideal for cross-country ski. I would venture to say cross-country skiing has been a form of transportation, in Norwegian history, if not the present-day.

The United States had high mountain ski-bowls where there is cross-country skiing. Most people do their cross-country skiing on snowed over roads, closed to traffic. These are not flat roads.

I think the "best" are in National Parks, in wintertime. I also like old logging roads for cross-country skis.

We do know climbing skins, ski wax, as well as, waxless skis, here.

If you look at the YouTube AT trail videos available, at YouTube, you will see a trail unsuited, for the most part, for even the most skilled cross-country skier.

Marta
12-19-2014, 09:59
I think lack of snow would be the main obstacle to skiing the AT. Only the northernmost sections have much of a snowpack.

Abatis1948
12-19-2014, 10:39
I understand through hiking the AT is a different kind of experience, but the whole concept of "getting to the next town" is so foreign to me.
My whole reason for being in the woods is to get OUT OF TOWN.

Back in 2009 and 2010 my best friend spent a year camping continuously in the Cherokee National Forest. Though he has returned to civilization (if you can call the New York City area civilized!) he still reminisces about being in the woods.
I'm thinking about dropping out of the rat race and retiring to the woods. For as long as I can function, manage my gear, cook, gather firewood, and survive,.....I see little point in getting to the next town.

You must be real good at living off the land. Would like to follow your journal if you do the AT.

Tipi Walter
12-19-2014, 11:01
You must be real good at living off the land. Would like to follow your journal if you do the AT.

I believe his point is that there are different ways to hike the AT and some of us hate the idea of hiking roads or hitching into towns or going to stores for near-constant resupplies. We put a dollar in our pack on Day 1 and come out on Day 21 with the same dollar.

I did 19 days on the AT in June 2011 w/o resupply and in April 2012 did 20 days on the AT w/o resupply. In May 2014 I did 21 days on the BMT/AT combo w/o resupply.

I concede of course that Thruhikers have to resupply because they are out for 5 or 6 months. Or they could carry 30 days of food and resupply 5 or 6 times for the whole trip. Different options available. The Fast & Light mindset, the Forced March mindset, the Gotta Make The Miles mindset is predominant, not the unbroken nature experience mindset.

oldwetherman
12-19-2014, 22:13
Tipi. Did you ever wonder if you were a polar bear in a previous life? ...Just teasing. I truly admire what you do.

Tipi Walter
12-20-2014, 01:05
Tipi. Did you ever wonder if you were a polar bear in a previous life? ...Just teasing. I truly admire what you do.

Thanks for the encouragement but no, I'm just an old bitter geezer trying to stay on speaking terms with Miss Nature.

campingfever
12-20-2014, 06:12
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=479106 Not sure if these folks are still out. No posts for a few days.

Sly
12-20-2014, 10:19
Nothing worse than having to put on frozen boots in morning after you break them free from the ground. The first mile is like walking on a 2x4 until the thaw out.

It's not as obvious as it should be but hold them over your lit stove for a few minutes and they'll thaw out nicely.

Sly
12-20-2014, 10:28
Just Jim has been hiking at a solid pace since Veterans Day from Harpers Ferry going south and is in Damascus now. His intention is to tag Springer and start hiking north to Katahdin, before hiking back to Harpers Ferry. (inverted YoYo?)

He's not only hiking for wounded warriors but doing maintenance along the way.

http://hike4veterans.com/the-hike-for-veterans.html

Boots and Backpacks
12-20-2014, 14:02
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=479106 Not sure if these folks are still out. No posts for a few days.

They're the ones who started this thread. Last I heard they're still out there, and hoping to be in Franklin for Christmas. We should be seeing them on the trail in couple weeks if they're holding up alright.


It's not as obvious as it should be but hold them over your lit stove for a few minutes and they'll thaw out nicely.

I've done that before, but this time I'll have to remember not to burn my laces.

Tipi Walter
12-20-2014, 14:28
http://www.trailjournals.com/entry.cfm?id=479106 Not sure if these folks are still out. No posts for a few days.

I like their quote on 12/11: "It was as cold as it can get." I sort of laughed and thought, no, it can get colder.

They are hiking fairly low miles which is a-okay in my opinion but haven't posted anything since 12/15 or 16.

Physical illness, broken gear, hurt feet, bitter cold, maybe some deep snow---the trail tends to break a person down into his component parts. A winter trip is guaranteed to accelerate the process.

Cold temps and a sleetstorm usually causes most backpackers to bail into the closest town. We shall see.

Boots and Backpacks
12-20-2014, 16:46
I like their quote on 12/11: "It was as cold as it can get." I sort of laughed and thought, no, it can get colder.

They are hiking fairly low miles which is a-okay in my opinion but haven't posted anything since 12/15 or 16.

Physical illness, broken gear, hurt feet, bitter cold, maybe some deep snow---the trail tends to break a person down into his component parts. A winter trip is guaranteed to accelerate the process.

Cold temps and a sleetstorm usually causes most backpackers to bail into the closest town. We shall see.

To think it isn't even cold out yet! We're looking forward to hiking in some 20-30* temps, and sleeping in some temps around 0*. We've got sleeping bags that zip together, and really keep us warm. Only 9 more days until we hit the trail!

Slo-go'en
12-20-2014, 18:20
So far it's been a mild start to the winter, even up here in the Whites. The storms so far have been on the warm side, making for some real icy conditions. For Christmas eve they say we'll get a big rain. That will make a mess since there's a couple of feet of snow so crusty it can be walked on with out postholing too much. There was already an avalanche on Washington which almost took out a climber. Today was the first day I've seen sun and blue sky in 3 weeks!

But the trend seems to be for a short, but really intense winter peaking in February and lingering well into March. So, the real fun has yet to start.

Tipi Walter
12-20-2014, 18:24
To think it isn't even cold out yet! We're looking forward to hiking in some 20-30* temps, and sleeping in some temps around 0*. We've got sleeping bags that zip together, and really keep us warm. Only 9 more days until we hit the trail!

Doubling up in the bag will really make a difference. How will you keep your sleeping pads connected and not pull apart when in the double bag? I always ended up the one on the ground in the middle as the pads slipped apart. I suppose you'll be using the Thermarest pad connectors?

Like already mentioned, it's hard to know what conditions will be by January 1st. You'll see some tough storms, that's for sure.

Boots and Backpacks
12-20-2014, 19:09
Doubling up in the bag will really make a difference. How will you keep your sleeping pads connected and not pull apart when in the double bag? I always ended up the one on the ground in the middle as the pads slipped apart. I suppose you'll be using the Thermarest pad connectors?

Like already mentioned, it's hard to know what conditions will be by January 1st. You'll see some tough storms, that's for sure.

We thought about getting some pad connectors a few years ago, but never did. Surprisingly the pads don't come apart as much as you might think. We we get up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom we push them back together. I bet they only come apart a couple inches at the most.

Storms come and go, and nothing lasts forever. Before we know it it'll be 70*, and we'll be wishing it was 20*.

Oslohiker
12-20-2014, 20:32
Everything I have seen of Norway, from famous Blog to pictures online, I would think Norway is ideal for cross-country ski. I would venture to say cross-country skiing has been a form of transportation, in Norwegian history, if not the present-day.

The United States had high mountain ski-bowls where there is cross-country skiing. Most people do their cross-country skiing on snowed over roads, closed to traffic. These are not flat roads.

I think the "best" are in National Parks, in wintertime. I also like old logging roads for cross-country skis.

We do know climbing skins, ski wax, as well as, waxless skis, here.

If you look at the YouTube AT trail videos available, at YouTube, you will see a trail unsuited, for the most part, for even the most skilled cross-country skier.

Well, hey, it is just a thought. Although i got to admit I feel like being stubborn and see how well I will do. I have watched a lot of videos, but from the videos I have not been deterred (when it regards to the southern part of the trail). But I guess they turn of the camera when it is really challenging.

Yes, we are a cross-country crazed people, actually winter sports crazed people. We both do it a lot our selves and watch it on tv, usually 8 hours straight every Saturday and Sunday in the winter season. Just today we won the Super G in alpine events for men, the nordic combined relay, both mens and womens cross-country ski event, and the biathlon event for men. Hopefully there will be more success tomorrow. This is big stuff over here. Actually, American winter sports athletes are probably more famous in Norway than anywhere in America. Tell me if you have heard of Kikkan Randall, Jessie Diggans, Sadie and Erik Bjornson, Andy Newell, Liz Stewens, Simi Hamilton and Ida Sargant. Well, we do over here. Actually Kikkan Randall is big star here.

But no, we never use skies for transportation, just for recreation....

JohnnySnook
12-21-2014, 04:36
I guess Lindsey Zonn is hitting the front page! Just won another event. Just not sure what she's doing with Tiger. Hope she doesn't get hurt by him. Hopefully he's changed.

Sadly i don't really follow the winter sports. Mostly I just follow the ASP (surfing). Kelly Slater lost again and the first Brazilian surfer is now the world champs. Congrats to Gabrial Medina.
I'm going to talk to mother and see if I can get some pictures of my grandfather jumping the massive ski jumps with my grandmother and/or mother sitting on the front of his ski's as he jumps down the mountain!

Oslohiker
12-21-2014, 11:56
I stand correced, alpine skiing get some media attention in the US. Linsey Vonn is just fantastic, and I do agree with your assessment of her choice of boyfriend. America also have a couple of outstanding male alpine skiers as well. But I think it is somewhat sad that an outstanding athlete as Kikkan Randall do not get much media coverage, although this years season has been a disaster for her, so far. Come to think about it, figure skating and ice-hockey get attention in the media, so my conclusion on winter sports coverage in the us was a little hasted, indeed.

But back to the main subject here. The narrative as far as I see:
-If you are going to do January hiking, you should have winter hiking experience, and go heavy with the pack. Packing enough food, fuel and clothing. You should also pack a shovel, a free standing tent and microspikes.
-Be prepared to spend several days in one spot because of snow conditions.
-You should not mind shorter days, cold weather, less people, and snow storms.
-Postholing is the way to go, because snow shoes are too heavy, and skies are just not recommended.
-You can more easily slip to your death, or die from hypothermia.
-The long green tunnel could become the low long green tunnel. Be prepared to crawl, and it becomes more difficult to find your way.
It think I got most of it....

Tipi Walter
12-21-2014, 12:24
But back to the main subject here. The narrative as far as I see:
-If you are going to do January hiking, you should have winter hiking experience, and go heavy with the pack. Packing enough food, fuel and clothing. You should also pack a shovel, a free standing tent and microspikes.
-Be prepared to spend several days in one spot because of snow conditions.
-You should not mind shorter days, cold weather, less people, and snow storms.
-Postholing is the way to go, because snow shoes are too heavy, and skies are just not recommended.
-You can more easily slip to your death, or die from hypothermia.
-The long green tunnel could become the low long green tunnel. Be prepared to crawl, and it becomes more difficult to find your way.
It think I got most of it....

That's pretty much it and echos a post I just made on a different thread about snowshoes. See---

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/107987-what-to-look-for-in-snowshoes?p=1930736&viewfull=1#post1930736

The shovel option won't be used by winter backpackers in the Southeast (like snowshoes) UNLESS they are willing to sit put in terrible storms and want to stay in deep snow and move camp every day. I never used a snow shovel but how many hundreds of times did I bend over with my nice new North Face power stretch gloves and ruin them scrapping out a tent site thru the snow? So on my next trip I'm taking a light Voile shovel just for this purpose.

This way I can stay in deep snow and move everyday, even if it's only a couple miles. Better than sitting in Zero Tent mode for 5 days to wait for the snow to melt. The shovel doesn't help in postholing but it does help immensely in preparing the next tent site in deep snow.

When confronted with such conditions (deep snow) most Southeast backpackers bail off the mountain and either hit the low ground and go to town.

GoodGerman
12-21-2014, 15:28
Terrible Idea,

I started February 2, 2014 and it was terrible all the way to Damascus. Freezing water bottles, snow, ice, closed hostels and whatnot.
Had to use map + compass several times because the snow covered up trail & blazes.

Still summited on July, 4. But it was tough as nails to stay on the trail and keep going...

Tipi Walter
12-21-2014, 15:42
Terrible Idea,

I started February 2, 2014 and it was terrible all the way to Damascus. Freezing water bottles, snow, ice, closed hostels and whatnot.
Had to use map + compass several times because the snow covered up trail & blazes.

Still summited on July, 4. But it was tough as nails to stay on the trail and keep going...

This is why very few backpackers stay on the trail from January to March. It's one thing to sit down at a computer after a weekend trip in the cold and write up a grand trip report and set up a grand schedule to tackle the whole trail on January 1st, and it's another thing to pull the day-in and day-out "hell" of winter living while pulling 3 mile days while on foot.

Then there's frozen boots and blown NeoAirs and snapped tent poles and frozen fingers and numb feet. It's glorious. Did I say it's all about the HANDS AND FEET? But heck GoodGerman, you did it and should be esp proud. All AT thruhikers should be required to start on January 1st and then we'd have some excellent search and rescue stories to read, enough to copy and take out to study on our next winter trips.

Just think, 3,000 backpackers starting the AT on January 1st. Man what an interesting cluster that would be.

Boots and Backpacks
12-22-2014, 08:04
closed hostels

That's what planning ahead is for. While it was a terrible idea for you to start then. That's not the case for everyone. To us, it's a terrible idea to start on March 1st with the cattle train.

GoodGerman
12-22-2014, 08:07
There is only so much planning ahead you can do.

Anyways: I hope you guys make it to Big K. It is a huge achievement, even more so for the early starters.
Stay focused on the trail, embrace the suck and soon you will be in Maine.

All the best.

Boots and Backpacks
12-22-2014, 09:12
There is only so much planning ahead you can do.

Anyways: I hope you guys make it to Big K. It is a huge achievement, even more so for the early starters.
Stay focused on the trail, embrace the suck and soon you will be in Maine.

All the best.

You're right about the planning. I've got things figured out until around the the 1st of March. I know what hostels are open, and which ones are not. Come March 1st just about everything along the trail should be open for the season.

Winter thru-hiking is for a different kind of person, and not just for any backpacker. Winter backpacking is what we do, and about 90% of our yearly backpacking trips are from December to March. We'll be more prepared for this trip than a lot of people who start on March 1st. We have everything we need to succeed, and I wish more people on here could see that.

I've received countless messages from members calling us anything from crazy to just short of retarded. One person even said "When you guys fail" you can call me, and I'll get you to a bus station so you can go home. So many people on here are quick to judge people, derail there plans, and put them up for failure before they even step foot on the trail. For those couple people; I still have your PM's, and I'll be sure to send you pictures from a long the way.

At the end of the day we'll still be there. The cold goes away, the snow melts, and Katahdin is in our future.

Tipi Walter
12-22-2014, 09:24
You won't fail, even in a polar vortex, but you may be delayed.

Boots and Backpacks
12-22-2014, 09:32
You won't fail, even in a polar vortex, but you may be delayed.

We know that.

If it were easy everybody would doing it!

Oslohiker
12-22-2014, 09:49
That's what planning ahead is for. While it was a terrible idea for you to start then. That's not the case for everyone. To us, it's a terrible idea to start on March 1st with the cattle train.

That is my point too. I don't understand why some people treat cold weather as an "unnatural" thing. I always look forward to winter, as I look forward to every season. Every season has it's advantages and disadvantages. In the winter there are no bugs and you can adjust the clothing for optimal heat.

I am sorry Tipi, but if you constantly have freezing feet and hands you should go over your equipment again. And you choose not to dry your boots inside your tent with your stove or in your sleeping-bag, that is all on you.

Yes, it would take longer time, but i would put in a hotel stay about every 14 days to dry out everything in the room.

As long as you don't run out of food and don't hurt yourself by slipping on the ground I don't see any problems with winter hiking. Snow is beautiful, and you don't feel cold when you dress right. If it is not impossible i would certainly start in January.

I wish you the best of luck, and look forward to read your blog.

squeezebox
12-22-2014, 09:54
A lot of people do not understand how to do winter hiking safely, my self inc. So they project that it just can't be done safely. It would be suicide for me to go out there in winter, because yea I really don't understand how to do it safely. But if you have 1/2 the winter experience you claim, you've been there done that, and will certainly succeed. Happy trails to you!
I'm looking forward to reading your journals

Boots and Backpacks
12-22-2014, 10:02
As long as you don't run out of food and don't hurt yourself by slipping on the ground I don't see any problems with winter hiking. Snow is beautiful, and you don't feel cold when you dress right. If it is not impossible i would certainly start in January.

I wish you the best of luck, and look forward to read your blog.

We always carry emergency food no matter what time of the year it is.

Losing our footing on something is what I'm really concerned about. We're going to have to be a bit more careful for the first couple months. Between base layer bottoms, hiking pants, and water proof pant. That should keep us plenty warm and dry while we're hiking. We've got down/wool layers for at night for warmth. If that's not enough we'll get into our sleeping bags. If we're still cold after that we'll pitch the tent.

We've focused on the picture, and we know this isn't going to come easy. We're going to be cold, wet, and at each others throat sometimes. We'll also be there to motivate each other, and to push each other.

No matter how bad the day is, it's still better than working 9-5.

Tipi Walter
12-22-2014, 10:06
I am sorry Tipi, but if you constantly have freezing feet and hands you should go over your equipment again. And you choose not to dry your boots inside your tent with your stove or in your sleeping-bag, that is all on you.

Yes, it would take longer time, but i would put in a hotel stay about every 14 days to dry out everything in the room.

As long as you don't run out of food and don't hurt yourself by slipping on the ground I don't see any problems with winter hiking. Snow is beautiful, and you don't feel cold when you dress right. If it is not impossible i would certainly start in January.

I wish you the best of luck, and look forward to read your blog.

Who says I have constantly freezing feet and hands? I said IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HANDS AND FEET. Keeping these four items warm is the main challenge in winter backpacking.

I would never use my white gas stove to thaw out my hiking boots because there is no resupply and I have a set amount of white gas to get me thru the trip. No extra for wasting. And I never will put my cold or frozen wet boots inside my sleeping bag as they will cool down whatever they are up against inside the bag, namely my feet if the boots are down in the bag's footbox. One improvement I could do for frozen boots is to hike in Sorel-type pac boots but I spent 2 years in Sorels back in '84 and while warm and rubber they are clunky and difficult to do any miles in.

The only time my feet are cold is at shove off in the morning when my boots are frozen. After an hour of hiking the feet are warm cuz I'm moving and the boots are thawing out. Here's what Boots and Backpacks says about it---

Nothing worse than having to put on frozen boots in morning after you break them free from the ground. The first mile is like walking on a 2x4 until the thaw out.

Most AT winter hikers will see a hotel/motel long before 14 days passes and so they have alot of opportunities to dry their gear and get very warm. On my winter trips I'm out for the duration (usually 21 days---remember the white gas?), and so I won't see a regular bed or a motel or folding money or a laundry mat or a car in that time. There's no chance for putting quarters in a clothes dryer. And really, nothing much gets wet and stays wet except maybe my hiking socks so there's no need to dry out everything in a room somewhere.

Marta
12-22-2014, 10:53
http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=202739&back=1

http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=209743&back=1

Here are a couple of photos from my Trailjournal. The first one was in January, Spring Mtn. Georgia. The second one is on top of Albert Mountain, NC. What's missing? Any snow at all!

The skiing in the southeastern US is terrible!!!

Tipi Walter
12-22-2014, 11:36
http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=202739&back=1

http://www.trailjournals.com/photos.cfm?id=209743&back=1

Here are a couple of photos from my Trailjournal. The first one was in January, Spring Mtn. Georgia. The second one is on top of Albert Mountain, NC. What's missing? Any snow at all!

The skiing in the southeastern US is terrible!!!

Hey Marta, what kind of pants/legging system do you have going on in this pic? It looks sort of like double longjohn bottoms??? No shorts over the leggings? Hard to tell.

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/3277/tj3277%5F022207%5F185545%5F202739.jpg?200702221856 07

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/3791/tj3791%5F100206%5F093934%5F185228.jpg?200610020940 14
My good friend Amy "Willow" thruhiked the AT in 2006 too and we camped together on Cheoah Bald. Here she is with Model T and Ranger Dawg. Did you meet her?? She probably started way past your start date.

Oslohiker
12-22-2014, 12:22
If that's not enough we'll get into our sleeping bags. If we're still cold after that we'll pitch the tent.


In the wintertime I would never get into a sleeping bag outside a tent. That's just me. Otherwise you plan is good. This is really inspiring.

Tipi Walter
12-22-2014, 12:42
In the wintertime I would never get into a sleeping bag outside a tent. That's just me. Otherwise you plan is good. This is really inspiring.

Boots and Backpacks Quote---

If that's not enough we'll get into our sleeping bags. If we're still cold after that we'll pitch the tent.

Yeah, there's no real warmth using a sleeping bag (esp a down bag) bedroll camping out in the open. Wind cuts right thru a sleeping bag shell. They're probably talking about sleeping in the AT shelters, which don't really offer that much protection either. Think 10F with a butt-biting and face-eatingly cold wind. Then think about how most AT shelters are wide open on one side.

It's why hikers put tarp walls on the shelters. Poor solution when compared to a double wall tent.

Oslohiker
12-22-2014, 12:44
Who says I have constantly freezing feet and hands? I said IT'S ALL ABOUT THE HANDS AND FEET. Keeping these four items warm is the main challenge in winter backpacking.

I would never use my white gas stove to thaw out my hiking boots because there is no resupply and I have a set amount of white gas to get me thru the trip. No extra for wasting. And I never will put my cold or frozen wet boots inside my sleeping bag as they will cool down whatever they are up against inside the bag, namely my feet if the boots are down in the bag's footbox. One improvement I could do for frozen boots is to hike in Sorel-type pac boots but I spent 2 years in Sorels back in '84 and while warm and rubber they are clunky and difficult to do any miles in.

The only time my feet are cold is at shove off in the morning when my boots are frozen. After an hour of hiking the feet are warm cuz I'm moving and the boots are thawing out. Here's what Boots and Backpacks says about it---

Nothing worse than having to put on frozen boots in morning after you break them free from the ground. The first mile is like walking on a 2x4 until the thaw out.

Most AT winter hikers will see a hotel/motel long before 14 days passes and so they have alot of opportunities to dry their gear and get very warm. On my winter trips I'm out for the duration (usually 21 days---remember the white gas?), and so I won't see a regular bed or a motel or folding money or a laundry mat or a car in that time. There's no chance for putting quarters in a clothes dryer. And really, nothing much gets wet and stays wet except maybe my hiking socks so there's no need to dry out everything in a room somewhere.

In cold weather your sleeping bag will soak up some of your sweat every night, and as long as you pack the sleeping bag in the backpack, this will not leave your bag. The bag will not feel wet, but it will lower the performance over time. 3 weeks is normally not a problem regarding this.

From backpackin.net:
http://www.backpacking.net/gearbags-tips.html

"In the winter, some folks prefer synthetic bags for long-duration outings. The reason is that in extreme cold, your body releases moisture as you sleep, so the down bag gets wet from the inside even though well protected from the outside. One way to prevent that is to use a vapor-barrier lining which keeps the moisture away from the down."

This is a real issue for expeditions in real cold weather, when there are no alternative to down. In winter time in Norway it is just a moderate problem, but still a problem.

Regarding shoes. I am not talking about to heat the shoes so they get bone dry with the stove. You heat them up for a minute of two to get rid of the worst moister, then you just have them inside the tent where they benefit from the heat from your cocking. Hang them from the ceiling of the tent. Using the sleeping bag, you can either finish of the process that was just explained, or it could be the whole process. You keep them by your chest, prying of your body heat, that's the clue.

Oslohiker
12-22-2014, 12:53
The skiing in the southeastern US is terrible!!!

I can imagine... but having skies with you and using them when necessary, what would the total energy consumption be and time consumption be? That would be interesting to know.

Boots and Backpacks
12-22-2014, 13:11
In the wintertime I would never get into a sleeping bag outside a tent. That's just me. Otherwise you plan is good. This is really inspiring.

Now this is getting to me. You're on here giving advice, but you're unaware of the shelters that the majority AT hikers use?

We're not going to be sleeping on the ground outside of our tent in the elements. We're going to utilize these shelters almost every night if at all possible. We've never had an issue with staying warm enough in shelter, no matter what time of the year it's been. The shelters put a roof of your head, and most of them have been positioned in such a way that the majority of the wind is blocked. We've been in a few that have not blocked the wind, and in those situations you can use your tent footprint to block the wind from hitting you. We've done that in the past as well, and it worked pretty good.

As I've stated several time. We know what we're doing, and we're not new to this. Last I checked we're the ones that signed up for this, and we're the ones who are going to make it. We didn't pick going out in the winter just to come home two weeks, and you're not going to see us crying/sniffling along the side of trail. Quitting is not going to be an option, unless one of us is too hurt to continue. There's no failure in having to retreat to a town to heal, or to sit out a storm. You need to do what you need to do in order to finish.

Some people on here have been very supportive with the comments they're leaving for us Snowbirds. While others have not been as friendly. These kinds of comments do nothing for people who are about to set out on the AT. I won't be posting on this forum again until after we've been hiking for bit. The negativity has reached it's limits with me, and it tired of receiving negative PM after negative PM. Thank you to those that have supported us, and who are rooting for us.

Boots and Backpacks
12-22-2014, 13:21
For those that want to talk with me please send me a PM. You can follow us with the two links in my sig.

Oslohiker
12-22-2014, 13:33
Now this is getting to me. You're on here giving advice, but you're unaware of the shelters that the majority AT hikers use?

We're not going to be sleeping on the ground outside of our tent in the elements. We're going to utilize these shelters almost every night if at all possible. We've never had an issue with staying warm enough in shelter, no matter what time of the year it's been. The shelters put a roof of your head, and most of them have been positioned in such a way that the majority of the wind is blocked. We've been in a few that have not blocked the wind, and in those situations you can use your tent footprint to block the wind from hitting you. We've done that in the past as well, and it worked pretty good.

As I've stated several time. We know what we're doing, and we're not new to this. Last I checked we're the ones that signed up for this, and we're the ones who are going to make it. We didn't pick going out in the winter just to come home two weeks, and you're not going to see us crying/sniffling along the side of trail. Quitting is not going to be an option, unless one of us is too hurt to continue. There's no failure in having to retreat to a town to heal, or to sit out a storm. You need to do what you need to do in order to finish.

Some people on here have been very supportive with the comments they're leaving for us Snowbirds. While others have not been as friendly. These kinds of comments do nothing for people who are about to set out on the AT. I won't be posting on this forum again until after we've been hiking for bit. The negativity has reached it's limits with me, and it tired of receiving negative PM after negative PM. Thank you to those that have supported us, and who are rooting for us.

Wow. This must be a language barrier. It was not ironic when I said this was inspiring. Reading what you have been writing I may set an earlier start date myself. I am sorry about the confusion.

I am very aware of the shelters, and you are right I have never slept in one in the winter time, since we don't got shelters like that where I am from. I just imagine that setting up a tent would be the better solution. Tipi seems to be on the same page on this issue. But you know better than me on this issue, I am sure of that.

I still hope some of my other advise is good for you (I am also here to learn myself). I truly wish you a good hike, and I absolutely would like to see you finish, and I truly look forward to read the blog and eventually see you on the top of Katahdin.

Tipi Walter
12-22-2014, 13:35
In cold weather your sleeping bag will soak up some of your sweat every night, and as long as you pack the sleeping bag in the backpack, this will not leave your bag. The bag will not feel wet, but it will lower the performance over time. 3 weeks is normally not a problem regarding this.

From backpackin.net:
http://www.backpacking.net/gearbags-tips.html

"In the winter, some folks prefer synthetic bags for long-duration outings. The reason is that in extreme cold, your body releases moisture as you sleep, so the down bag gets wet from the inside even though well protected from the outside. One way to prevent that is to use a vapor-barrier lining which keeps the moisture away from the down."


There's a simple technique most winter backpackers do every morning and it's something I do every morning if possible---I hang my down bag up outside while I'm brewing morning tea and packing up. Just one hour either in the sun or in any kind of breeze will dry the bag and take off the usual morning in-tent bag shell moisture-sheen.

And then there's air humidity and daily changing conditions. Sometimes we get sleetstorms or long cold rains (in the 96 to 150 hour category) whereby the excellent down bag loses a little loft and a little warmth due to air humitidy---but the bag is never wet. Then on Day 12 or 15 of the trip I'm set up in a cold bone-dry wind and the bag gets lofted and fully dry like it was at home and at the start of the trip.

No one I know packs up their sleeping bag in the morning without first hanging it out to dry.

VBLs are used for down bags when the temps stay consistently at below zero of -20F for a month. This doesn't happen in the Southeast and so I do not use or want to use a VBL. In fact, I can't stand sleeping inside a VBL as it's clammy and constricting. Sleeping in a zipped up mummy bag is bad enough, now add a second VBL sheath and we're talking claustrophobia.

Here's the morning ritual of the Well Hung Bag---Snowbird wilderness NC in January 2012

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-in-Snowbirds/i-RrBVqSf/0/L/TRIP%20129%20055-L.jpg

Oslohiker
12-22-2014, 13:46
I have never used a vapor barrier myself, I follow you on that one. I do hang up the bag in the morning myself, mostly turning it inside out and put it on top of the tent. It helps but it is still a fine line if enough moister get removed.

Coffee
12-22-2014, 13:55
I'm not a winter hiker but on cold mornings I can't wait to just get moving to warm up. So I never hang up my bag or anything like that in camp. I'm trying to get out of camp quickly. I do sometimes air out my bag mid-day if weather permits once I warm up. It must take a lot of discipline to stay in camp airing out a bag for an hour in the earning morning freezing temps!

Tipi Walter
12-22-2014, 14:00
I have never used a vapor barrier myself, I follow you on that one. I do hang up the bag in the morning myself, mostly turning it inside out and put it on top of the tent. It helps but it is still a fine line if enough moister get removed.

Like I said, conditions change and bone dry conditions often come on winter trips where the air humidity is very low. I've been in my tent on Day 15 or 18 of a trip and the cold air was so dry all my down items were lofted to the max, so much so that stuffing them was a chore. A week before my bag was moist with 70% of its loft.

This is why is dang important to go overkill with a goose down bag. Bone dry and fully lofted like it is at home your 0F rated down bag will keep you warm nearly to 0F ambients. Now go out for several weeks and get those conditions whereby 30% of the loft is lost due to air humidity. The bag won't perform as well again at 0F.

SOOOOOOO . . . . I use a bag rated to -15F to account for these loft percentages.

Tipi Walter
12-22-2014, 14:06
I'm not a winter hiker but on cold mornings I can't wait to just get moving to warm up. So I never hang up my bag or anything like that in camp. I'm trying to get out of camp quickly. I do sometimes air out my bag mid-day if weather permits once I warm up. It must take a lot of discipline to stay in camp airing out a bag for an hour in the earning morning freezing temps!

Just the opposite for me, I can barely tolerate getting early starts before the sun comes up and it's 0F. It's hellish in several ways. The tent is locked in its early morning ice-concrete and I wanna brew up hot liquids and the bag must be hung and it's nice to have hot fluids to thaw the hands as I'm packing up a frozen encrusted tent. Place tongue on tent pole---weep.

When a tent is locked in tight, any extra morning hours help to release the thing w/o me having to chop and scrape and rip off ice chunks and all else. Ideally, the best time to leave would be around noon when things are at their warmest but who has the patience? Everybody's different anyway, but shove off time for me in the winter is usually between 9 and 10am.

And anyway, when the snow is 2+ feet deep and I have a 3,000 foot climb who needs to get an early start? I'll be lucky to make 3 miles before crapping out.

Oslohiker
12-22-2014, 14:10
Yup, we are one the same page. An "overkill" sleeping bag is the way to go (and a good winter tent, as you have earlier mentioned). Both because of humidity, but also this will be your rescue when things turn bad.

Drying out a bag in the cold is good because (as you mentioned) the air is often dry, but it is bad because it is based on sublimation, which is a slow process, and all moister may not have left. I do not on the other hand know the local conditions well. This is the experience at where I am from, and what we are taught.

Oslohiker
12-22-2014, 14:20
When it comes to a snow shovel, I (PERSONALLY) would not take one with me on an early start on the AT, instead I would use my feet to move snow around (not my hands, except directly on the tent). A shovel is for me in the winter time something to build an emergency cave with. But if I would take one, this would be the one:

http://www.atkrace.it/product/rescue-snow-carbon-shovel-245-gr/?lang=en

http://www.atkrace.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/PC01-320x200.png

Tipi Walter
12-22-2014, 14:44
When it comes to a snow shovel, I (PERSONALLY) would not take one with me on an early start on the AT, instead I would use my feet to move snow around (not my hands, except directly on the tent). A shovel is for me in the winter time something to build an emergency cave with. But if I would take one, this would be the one:

http://www.atkrace.it/product/rescue-snow-carbon-shovel-245-gr/?lang=en

http://www.atkrace.it/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/PC01-320x200.png

You're right about a shovel (nobody carries one in the Southeast), but many of my winter trips are to intentionally find the highest mountains in my area (5,600 feet) and explore until a good storm hits. Moving 2 feet of snow for my tent with my boots is a slow job, bending over with the hands is better although it eats my gloves. A snow shovel best of all. Or at least I ordered A Voile XLM and assume it will be much easier. Can't hurt except for the 1lb+ extra weight.

rocketsocks
12-22-2014, 15:11
I bought one from dicks last year, I see Wally world is also now carrying these light duty aluminum shovels.

rocketsocks
12-22-2014, 15:13
Pretty cheap, 20 bones.

Tipi Walter
12-22-2014, 15:16
I bought one from dicks last year, I see Wally world is also now carrying these light duty aluminum shovels.

I went whole hog and got the Voile as below and upgraded my winter glove issues with a pair of very light Mt Laurel Designs eVent shell mitts. These will cover my nice NF power stretch gloves and hopefully keep them dry when doing wet tent packing and hiking in a cold rain or sleet. Oh and my microspikes have to be in this winter gear picture.

All this crap will look better when it's sitting in the snow.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2015-Trips-161/Welcome-to-2015/i-PNChWZw/0/L/Winter%202015%20008-L.jpg

Marta
12-26-2014, 00:37
They're Solstice micro fleece tights. I bought them along the way in 2006 in Pennsylvania, I think. I love them. I wore them today to go skiing, as a base layer under breathable nylon shell pants. They're about the only micro fleece I've ever had that don't pill at all.

They are also as warm when wet as when dry. Really nice fabric.

I didn't bother to wear shorts over them. When it was cold, I added another layer of fleece pants. When it was colder than that, I added rain pants for a third layer.

I met Ranger Dawg and Model T up north (southern NH?) in 2006. I talked to them for a while when we crossed paths. I don't recall meeting Willow. Did she go SOBO?


Hey Marta, what kind of pants/legging system do you have going on in this pic? It looks sort of like double longjohn bottoms??? No shorts over the leggings? Hard to tell.

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/3277/tj3277%5F022207%5F185545%5F202739.jpg?200702221856 07

http://www.trailgallery.com/photos/3791/tj3791%5F100206%5F093934%5F185228.jpg?200610020940 14
My good friend Amy "Willow" thruhiked the AT in 2006 too and we camped together on Cheoah Bald. Here she is with Model T and Ranger Dawg. Did you meet her?? She probably started way past your start date.

Tipi Walter
12-26-2014, 08:30
Marta---No, Willow started at Springer.

Marta
12-26-2014, 10:06
My encounters with NOBOs was usually just a nod of the head and a Hi, unless we happened to share a luncheon spot of campsite. I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to meet her.

Boots and Backpacks
01-07-2015, 12:39
We're in Hiawassee for the night. Ran out of food after breakfast this morning, and gas too. Low in town tonight is supposed to be 5 degrees, and 11 tomorrow night. We'll be on the trail again come Thursday or Friday.

Had some slow progress from Neels Gap to Hiawassee due to 2.5 days of rain. Made it here in 6 days, and it could have been 4 days without the rain. We made it from Springer to Neels Gap in 3 days.

smoothsailin
01-07-2015, 21:51
29459
One good reason not to start NOBO before March.
AND to finish SOBO before Dec

Boots and Backpacks
01-08-2015, 09:20
That's your personal choice, and is not how everyone else sees it. There's nothing wrong with it being cold, and some prefer if. Usually the ones that prefer it are the ones who start early. If you don't like the cold then stay out of woods that time of the year.

Just one more person to add to the list of names that don't support winter hikers. Maybe don't support is the wrong choice of words. However, you did just say starting before March is a bad idea. Still sounds better than hiking with the cattle train for hundreds of miles.

full conditions
01-08-2015, 14:17
That's your personal choice, and is not how everyone else sees it. There's nothing wrong with it being cold, and some prefer if. Usually the ones that prefer it are the ones who start early. If you don't like the cold then stay out of woods that time of the year.

Just one more person to add to the list of names that don't support winter hikers. Maybe don't support is the wrong choice of words. However, you did just say starting before March is a bad idea. Still sounds better than hiking with the cattle train for hundreds of miles.
I'm rooting for you guys - I think winter hikers have an extra-adventurous spirit. My concern though, hasn't centered around the difficulties with the winter portion, but rather with finishing up in New England in the early spring. I grew up there and my memories of April and May are ones of mud, bugs, and surprise storms. Im sure you've already considered this and was wondering what your take on it is? In any case I wish you both happy trails.

Christmastree
01-08-2015, 22:42
The thread is about early starters, but it seems to have attracted a few haters. Boots and Backpacks are hiking their own hike. It's what they chose. Winter brings about many challenges, but if hikers are aware and prepared and wish to hike in winter, they should go for it. If someone else wants to set out in April, fine, but why the need for negativity? They will make it or they won't, but they are choosing what they want. Best of luck to all of the 2015 thru hikers. I wish I was with you, but I will be there next year. Stay warm Boots and Backpacks. Good luck to you.
Chrsmastree

smoothsailin
01-09-2015, 22:27
I didn't say it was a bad idea....I just showed a wx chart of really cold/wet weather as a good reason not to start too earlier. I don't really care when someone starts. I hiked thru the late winter storms of 2013 with waist deep snow in Smoky's and snow up into northern VA. Which can happen with a March start as well but you should expect the weather to be bad in Jan/Feb, hence for most people, a good reason not to start too early. Everyone who starts in winter journals about how bad the weather is and being stuck in town...duhhh.... and thats a good reason to me not too start too earlier. I'd rather be hiking than sitting at the computer at a hotel...wait...thats pretty much what I'm doing now....

I don't mind the 'cattle train' ... lots of good cows in it.
I hope you have a great hike and the weather gets better for you...but the almost guaranteed cold/wet winter wx is a good reason to wait until March.....

Boots and Backpacks
01-12-2015, 14:33
In Franklin for the night, and back on the trail in trail in the morning. Should be at Fontana by Sunday.

Boots and Backpacks
01-23-2015, 14:45
Got into Hot Springs yesterday, and here again tonight. Been raining all day, and snow starting tonight. Hoping for Erwin by the end of the week.

Boots and Backpacks
02-01-2015, 21:30
A little behind schedule. We'll be in Erwin Tuesday or Wednesday for sure this time. We're staying at Mother Marian's tonight to get out of the 40+ mph winds on Big Bald. We should have snow all day tomorrow, and all downhill into Erwin on Tuesday.

kayak karl
02-01-2015, 22:47
A little behind schedule. We'll be in Erwin Tuesday or Wednesday for sure this time. We're staying at Mother Marian's tonight to get out of the 40+ mph winds on Big Bald. We should have snow all day tomorrow, and all downhill into Erwin on Tuesday. that down hill in the snow is a pain. don't under estimate it. have a great , safe trip :)

Kiteman
02-02-2015, 07:06
A little behind schedule. We'll be in Erwin Tuesday or Wednesday for sure this time. We're staying at Mother Marian's tonight to get out of the 40+ mph winds on Big Bald. We should have snow all day tomorrow, and all downhill into Erwin on Tuesday.
Stay safe and dry and warm

Boots and Backpacks
02-06-2015, 21:47
Heading to Roan High Knob Shelter tomorrow. Got off at Greasy Creek Friendly today to pick up a new stove we had sent out. The night out of Erwin our MSR Pocket Rocket stripped out. Had a new one overnighted to us, and we'll be back on the trail in the morning.

Boots and Backpacks
02-06-2015, 21:48
By the way, low of a 8-9 degrees last night.

Boots and Backpacks
02-09-2015, 17:28
Made it to Roan Mnt TN for the night. Had some snow and ice getting to Roan Shelter. Weather wasn't bad getting over, and into TN. Leaving in the morning to head towards Damascus next week.

Boots and Backpacks
02-12-2015, 18:32
We're off in Hampton to avoid the negative temps tonight. We're also getting some snow, and 20-30 winds.

Boots and Backpacks
02-14-2015, 21:18
Holy he'll it's going to be cold. We've been laying low in heat for the last 2 nights, and again tonight. Still, we've been out the last 2 days slackpacking so we're not wasting time. We're getting back on the trail in the morning, and have one night until we're in Damascus. We're a little concerned about the weather coming our way Wednesday and Thursday. Lows in Damascus are supposed to be -5 Wednesday, and -1 on Thursday. Snow is coming in on Monday as well,and that should drop 3-5" in town.

Slo-go'en
02-14-2015, 21:50
You picked a good winter to go hiking :) Although your leaving the big mountains of NC/TN and getting into the lower ridges of Virginia, you'll also be more in line with the storm tracks for the next month or longer. And those Virginia ridge walks can be mighty exposed and really slippery, so be careful!

Boots and Backpacks
02-15-2015, 08:58
That's what we're hearing. Just hoping all the snow melts up north!

mountain squid
02-15-2015, 10:32
It is currently 8f with the sun shining! Bear in mind, if you venture out now, the roads will likely be inaccessible as the weather gets worse (between Hampton and Damascus there are only 3 road crossings - Wilbur Dam Rd, TN91, US421). Weather alert (http://www.accuweather.com/en/us/elizabethton-tn/37643/weather-warnings-1322158/335667) for Elizabethton. If an emergency occurs you might be stuck. Additionally, if substantial snow does fall, you'll likely be post holing all the way to Damascus.

You might consider some extra food. Be safe out there!

See you on the trail,
mt squid

(http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?100363-2014-Norovirus-Awareness)maintenance videos (http://www.youtube.com/user/mountainsquid04/videos)

Tipi Walter
02-15-2015, 11:41
I just came in after a 15 day February trip and left 5,300 foot Bob Bald mountain with a friend in 40mph wind with 10F ambients---face-eatingly cold. I'll post a trip report once my pics are loaded into smugmug.

Boots and Backpacks
02-15-2015, 20:40
We didn't make it out of Butler today. The roads were icy here,and we couldn't even make it out of the driveway. We're doing a work for stay for a few days, and are staying in the owners lake house. We really couldn't ask for anything better. We are missing the trail though.

Honuben
02-15-2015, 21:04
Stay warm while you can, you definately had some wild winter luck for the early start. I'm worried for you with the snow melt up north when you get there. Stay safe.

kayak karl
02-15-2015, 21:19
Stay warm while you can, you definately had some wild winter luck for the early start. I'm worried for you with the snow melt up north when you get there. Stay safe. over the years the worst storms hit late feb, early march. they are not out of the woods yet. stay safe :)

Honuben
02-15-2015, 21:39
over the years the worst storms hit late feb, early march. they are not out of the woods yet. stay safe :)

Definately not out of the woods... The winter seems brutal up in the northeast. I dont mind the cold nor snow but really hate the mud that comes later.

JBandStacy2014
02-16-2015, 13:42
Boots and Backpacks, we are back on the trail...quite a ways behind you since we started over....keep pushin my friends!

Boots and Backpacks
02-16-2015, 16:51
I'm really glad to see you guys back at it. Take your time, and be safe out there with this weather. If you guys need any help/advice just let us know. Hike your own hike, and don't pay attention to the naysayers.

JBandStacy2014
02-18-2015, 09:21
thanks guys! We're rooting on ya!

mountain squid
02-20-2015, 20:10
Additionally, if substantial snow does fall, you'll likely be post holing all the way to Damascus.Have you started your post holing adventure yet? Too bad you are already past Laurel Fork Falls!

http://whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30027&d=1424476791

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30028&d=1424476998

http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=30029&d=1424477233


It was 10 below this morning . . . I reckon it was even colder at the falls! (Kincora said it was 14 below!)

Be careful out there . . . looks like freezing rain tomorrow.

See you on the trail,
mt squid

Boots and Backpacks
02-21-2015, 21:30
We're finally getting out of here Monday or Tuesday. Been helping a lady out working on her Inn and rental cabin. Got a coupe things to finish up for her before we leave though. Everything has started to melt, and looks like we have a good window coming up.

Kiteman
02-21-2015, 21:45
Staying at Franklin, North Carolaina for the next 3 days because of the weather, snow and my leg. Anyone here?