Sleeping Bags

[OverTheHills]

Hey guys, 2nd post here. I am preparing to go out on the AT next year, and am trying to get all my gear together so I can get accustomed to all of it pre-trail. I was curious if there was any wisdom about sleeping bags. As of right now, I'm looking at a Therm-A-Rest NeoAir XTherm pad. Any good bag ideas?

[HooKooDooKu]

First thing you have to decide is if you want down or synthetic fill.

Down, if of the correct quality, will last longer and compress smaller, and weight less. But it has almost no insulating properties if you get it wet.

The right synthetic bag can weight less and compress down smaller than comparable priced down bags, and will still retain some insulation properties if it gets wet.

Obviously for either bag, you want to take precautions to insure your bag doesn't get wet (like if you take an unexpected plunge during a creek crossing).

I personally use a synthetic bag because most of my camping is in the Great Smoky Mountains where things are VERY humid. My brother once bought an expensive down bag and took a week long hike in GSMNP. It never rained on him, but there was so much moisture in the air that the bag that started out at about 2lbs came home at about 4lbs.

I personally do not have any experience with down bags. But if you want to go with a synthetic bag, I currently can't find anything better than the Mountain Hardware Ultralamina series of bags. They pack down much smaller than most comparable synthetic bags, and even smaller than some more expensive down bags. They also weigh less than most comparable synthetic bags. They are regularly priced around $280. But I've been able to purchase a last year's model at clearance prices as low as $130 (though $150-$190 is a more likely discount price to find one).

[OverTheHills]

I'll have to check those out. Thanks!

[swjohnsey]

There is no synthetic bag that weighs less or compress more than a down bag of equal temp rating. Down bags cost more but you get what you pay for.

[MuddyWaters]

Ive got an ultralamina 15, several yrs old, for wet weather. Id say its really a ~30F bag. At 40oz, and ~7x15", its probably on par with a cheap 650-750 down fill 30F bag like the kelty. Possibly packs smaller, but a bit heavier. Much of the weight of bags are in the fabrics, and there is no incentive to use light expensive fabrics in cheap fill or synthetic bags.

[Del Q]

Mont Bell Spiral is a great bag

[Odd Man Out]

I think the "synthetic bags keep you warm when wet" statement can be a little misleading. No bag will keep you warm if you drop in the creek. As HKDK points out, it is the tendency of down to absorb moisture from the air and loose its fluff that can be a problem. Nevertheless, lots of AT thru hikers get by fine with down bags. Just make sure you know how to keep it dry. But if you are concerned about that, synthetics are a reasonable option as well. Also know that there are now bags made with down that has been treated so that it doesn't absorb water. This could give you the best of both worlds, but you'll pay more for it.

[bigcranky]

My wife has a Neoair Xtherm pad. It's very warm and in her mind totally worth the price. If you're an REI member wait for one of their quarterly sales and use your 20% off coupon to lessen the pain in your wallet :)

As for a bag for an AT thru-hike, that totally depends on your start date, projected finish date, your budget, etc.

If you start in mid April, and finish in 5 months, a good bag rated to 30 degrees F should suit you the whole way. It'll be warm enough for the chilly nights at the beginning and end, but not too hot for summer in the middle.

If you start in mid February, you'll want a much warmer bag to start - at least a 15-F bag - but that's overkill for summer even in New England, so then you'll need a second bag rated to 40F or so when it warms up.

A sleeping bag is the one place where I think that spending more money is probably worthwhile. I prefer good quality down bags from Western Mountaineering, Marmot, or Montbell, though they aren't cheap.

All that said, you can do a thru-hike with a Kelty Cosmic 20-F rated down bag for less than $150 and a Ridgerest closed cell foam pad for $30.

Good luck.

[bert304]

It depends on how you can or want to spend. I have Z10 bag from Golite, it is rated for 10 degrees and it does keep you warm at 10 degrees. I took it out a couple days after Christmas and I was warm at night with a low of 10 degrees. Spend the most you can on your sleep system and your tent.

[OverTheHills]

Money is not an option for me. I'm totally willing to spend more money for a very high quality bag. My folks are covering the tent I'm wanting (getting 14 college credit hours for hiking the AT, so they're covering the MSR Hubba NX for me) and that freed up a lot of money for the bag. I was looking at the Sierra Designs Back country Bed, any body have any experience with a bag of that style?

[OverTheHills]

Also, I start mid-February.

[swjohnsey]

Sound like a lot of bad decisions. If money is no object pick the kind of bag you want from Western Mountaineering.

[OverTheHills]

I'll check them out. Thank you!

[OverTheHills]

Alright, so I may not be willing to spend on the Western Mountaineering stuff. Good lord. However, I'm liking the Kelty Cosmic 20. Any thoughts?

[johnnybgood]

Alright, so I may not be willing to spend on the Western Mountaineering stuff. Good lord. However, I'm liking the Kelty Cosmic 20. Any thoughts?

The Kelty Cosmic gets good reviews . I'd still go with a 10* bag if starting in February.

[bigcranky]

Alright, so I may not be willing to spend on the Western Mountaineering stuff. Good lord. However, I'm liking the Kelty Cosmic 20. Any thoughts?

Well, the WM stuff really is worth every penny. When the wind is howling and the temps drop into the single digits and I'm close to hypothermic and my fingers no longer work to untie my shoes or light my stove, I want to know that I can get in my bag and be warm, no questions. Saving a hundred bucks doesn't enter my mind at those times, for some reason :) I have a WM Antelope for winter, a 5F rated bag that keeps me warm into the single digits, no question. I did manage to find it on sale, which never happens, but I got extremely lucky. My 3-season bag is a WM Megalite for which I paid full price and it's still going strong ten years later.

Have you hiked in the Southern Appalachians in mid Feburary? It can get pretty cold. Doesn't Kelty make a winter version of the Cosmic down bag? I'd start with a winter bag and swap for a summer bag in late May.

You might also look for a Montbell 0 or 15F bag for the start. These can often be found on sale.

[captike]

A good thing to keep in mind about sleeping bag ratings is that the temperature rating listed isn't necessarily the rating at which you'll be warm, but at which you will survive....depending on which rating they're using. The system by which bags are measured has different temperatures listed depending on which rating they correlate to. Here is a good article that explains the differences. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537 I had a Lamina 35 degree bag a couple of years ago and when I went hiking in mid 30's temps I was pretty cold. I later learned that the rating used on the marketing was their lower limit rating and not the comfort rating. To me it makes a huge difference!! Just be aware of what number they're actually using before you buy.

[HooKooDooKu]

Ive got an ultralamina 15, several yrs old, for wet weather. Id say its really a ~30F bag. At 40oz, and ~7x15", its probably on par with a cheap 650-750 down fill 30F bag like the kelty. Possibly packs smaller, but a bit heavier. Much of the weight of bags are in the fabrics, and there is no incentive to use light expensive fabrics in cheap fill or synthetic bags.
I would rate the Ultralamina 15 as being a little bit warmer than a 30F bag. I find I am quite comfortable in this bag wearing only shorts, a t-shirt, and wool cap when temperatures are right at freezing (haven't used it yet in temperatures lower than that).

So when I look at EN temperature ratings, you would have to step up to at least the Kelty Ignite 16 to get a that is comparable to the Ultralamina 15. That Kelty is a little bit cheaper, a little big bigger, and a little bit lighter than the Ultralamina.

However, I must admit looking at the Kelty's specification, it's a better entry level down that I used to think.

I've also got to admit that the Ultralamina's sweet spot is the Ultralamina 32 bag. At less than 2lbs and a stuff sack size of 6x10, it's specs are better than many down bags costing hundreds more at that temperature rating (such as the Marmot Plasma 30).

[swjohnsey]

Kelty down bags are a good value. I used a lightyear 40 down for a few years until I discovered WM. Unless there is some compelling reason for starting in February like an affinity for cheap motel rooms in little Georgia towns, you will be much better off starting late March or early April.

[OverTheHills]

Sadly, the college Im getting the credits through chooses the start date so that it lines up with the semester.

[Venchka]

Rude Geezer Alert.
Based on everything you have said so far, I would not give you 1 credit hour.

Save your folks some money and save you weight in your pack. Buy a TarpTent. Contrail, Notch or Moment.
Starting in mid-February you will need a 10 degree bag PLUS proper winter gear. Be prepared to sleep in a layer of wool from head to toe. You may also need additional layers like down jacket and booties.
Kelty has a 20 degree bag with 800 fill dry down for $300. The North Face Hightail 3S at 15 degrees might work for $400.
Or, you can make a lifetime investment in a 10 degree bag from Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering.
You will need a second bag sometime in May or June. You can cheap out on that bag.
Correction. I give you 1 hour credit for the Xtherm if you buy the large size. You will need the extra coverage in the snow. Last May I bought my Xtherm from REI 30% off. I got an Exped Air Pillow on sale at the same time. A perfect combination. I sleep as well on that pair as I do in my bed.
A ULA Catalyst should work fine for a winter start.
Good luck. I hope you pass.

Wayne
Ps: That is going to be a very expensive Thru Hike.

[JumpMaster Blaster]

Alright, so I may not be willing to spend on the Western Mountaineering stuff. Good lord. However, I'm liking the Kelty Cosmic 20. Any thoughts?

I have a Kelty Cosmic 20. Took it outside in my tent with a base layer and polypro hat at around 26-28 degrees one night. Kept me from getting chilled.

HOWEVER- the bag sucks up moisture from humidity like no one's business. Then it starts to stink. I plan on getting an 800 fill DriDown (or similar) bag next year. I have Army issued sleeping bag systems that I could use but the 0 degree synthetic bag is way to heavy and bulky (4lbs).

As for a pad, that depends on how you sleep. Back sleepers can get away with a ThermaRest Z-Lite. I require a 2.5" pad so I can sleep any which way.

[OverTheHills]

I had actually never heard of TarpTents. They actually look pretty cool.

[bigcranky]

Rude Geezer Alert.

Correction. I give you 1 hour credit for the Xtherm if you buy the large size. You will need the extra coverage in the snow.

I spit my coffee when I saw your "alert." LOL.

I do need to follow up on my Xtherm comments, given a mid-Feb start date. Yes, it's a good pad. However, if it fails (springs a leak, gets a big unpatchable tear, whatever), then you have no insulation from the very cold ground. In general, your sleeping pad's primary function is insulation, not comfort -- and in the winter this is critical. Most winter hikers carry two pads - a closed cell foam pad for insulation, and an inflatable pad for comfort. In the case of a Neoair that's probably even more important.

[Venchka]

I had actually never heard of TarpTents. They actually look pretty cool.

I was in a shop in Boone, NC last week. They had the MSR Hubba NX set up on the floor. Not a bad tent. Single door/vestibule. $340. OUCH! There is a low mileage TarpTent Contrail mentioned here at Whiteblaze in a recent Want To Buy thread for $150. You could do worse. Maybe you need to renegotiate with Mom & Dad. Swap out the tent for a proper winter sleeping bag. Sunlight and/or occasional nights in hostels or motels should dry out a down bag.
In fact. you could get most of gear in the For Sale/Want To Buy Forums here at WhitBlaze for considerably less than new prices.
Required reading for a February NOBO start:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php?102257-21-Days-in-a-February-Snow&highlight=February
Pay attention to the gear used.
Paraphrasing Chief Brody: "You're gonna need a bigger bag."

Wayne

[OverTheHills]

I renegotiated with the folks. It looks like I'll be investing in a WM Versalite 10* bag. Thanks for the help guys!

[T-Rx]

IMHO You can't go wrong with either WM or FF sleeping bags. Both excellent products and true to their temp. ratings.

[OverTheHills]

After this post, I noticed that I'd been a little blind to making a legitimate investment in the best bag possible. WM it is.

[bigcranky]

The Versalite is an excellent bag.

Along with the bag you'll want to start thinking about clothing, as much of your clothing works in conjunction with your bag in winter hiking.

[Venchka]

I renegotiated with the folks. It looks like I'll be investing in a WM Versalite 10* bag. Thanks for the help guys!

By the way, did you know that you need to "try on" sleeping bags just like shoes & packs? All bags are not sized the same. Length is one size that all makers list. Short, Regular & Long. The other dimensions are equally important. Inside girth at shoulders, hips & feet matter as well as length.
That said, the Versalite and Antelope share the same internal dimensions. I own the Antelope (Zero degree bag-totally LOVE it!) and my short (5'-8") skinny (150 pounds) fit inside the Antelope with ease. Consequently, the Versalite is #1 on my radar to replace the REI bag that I recently passed along to y granddaughter.
The hood, collar and foot box of WM bags is worth the price of admission. The lack of a side baffle block makes these bags very versatile. Cold weather-move down to the top. Warmer weather-move down to the bottom.
I anticipate your real world February report on the Versalite.
You done good, Grasshopper.

Wayne