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ArkVol
10-10-2005, 13:16
or is still his way or the highway on his site?

stupe
10-10-2005, 13:33
Maybe he is lightening up. I posted a positive statement about Bill Bryson's book on Trailplace, and was surprised at his mild response.

SGT Rock
10-10-2005, 13:35
I haven't been there in ages.

Oracle
10-10-2005, 13:43
Neither have I. I don't want to encourage the foolishness that he engages in on his site by frequenting it.

the goat
10-10-2005, 14:20
why should he? trailplace deals with serious, controversial, and cutting edge issues where the very fate of the AT itself is often hanging in the balance. :D

Old Spice
10-10-2005, 14:37
why should he? trailplace deals with serious, controversial, and cutting edge issues where the very fate of the AT itself is often hanging in the balance. :D

don't get me wrong, i love trailplace, and really do respect and appreciate WF as much as can having never actually met him. but isn't this a little dramatic? the language itself reflects the notion that trailplace somehow is a chosen instrument in representing the A.T. a "chosen peoples" complex tends to breed fundementalism. the problem with fundamentalist/purists of any sort is that in order for them to be so intense/zealous for their ideals, they have to be intolerant of other opinions. i think a lot of people are drawn to this mentality because it is black and white and represents a sense of security for them. when so much of life and what it means is ambiguous, i think that it is a common mistake of a truth seeker to get mixed up in this mentality. it has the appearance of solid ground or an anchor for them. unfortunately, the result is that they usually don't ever find the peace that they thought it would bring them. yet they refuse to admit this. to do so would entail admitting that they don't have all the anwsers in life and thus they would have to forfet the security that is found in a fundamentalist/purist worldview.

Oracle
10-10-2005, 14:46
Nathan, go to trailplace and post something that goes against Wingfoot's opinions, especially anything political. You'll learn all about intolerance :).

lobster
10-10-2005, 14:46
I heard he has lightened up. He fasted for 3 days and lost 6 pounds.

the goat
10-10-2005, 14:48
don't get me wrong, i love trailplace, and really do respect and appreciate WF as much as can having never actually met him. but isn't this a little dramatic? the language itself reflects the notion that trailplace somehow is a chosen instrument in representing the A.T. a "chosen peoples" complex tends to breed fundementalism. the problem with fundamentalist/purists of any sort is that in order for them to be so intense/zealous for their ideals, they have to be intolerant of other opinions. i think a lot of people are drawn to this mentality because it is black and white and represents a sense of security for them. when so much of life and what it means is ambiguous, i think that it is a common mistake of a truth seeker to get mixed up in this mentality. it has the appearance of solid ground or an anchor for them. unfortunately, the result is that they usually don't ever find the peace that they thought it would bring them. yet they refuse to admit this. to do so would entail admitting that they don't have all the anwsers in life and thus they would have to forfet the security that is found in a fundamentalist/purist worldview.
overdramatic? are you kidding me? WF was ordained by God himself as the high protector and all knowing centerpiece of the AT.

Toolshed
10-10-2005, 14:57
He doesn;t allow us to do any damn chitchatting in exclusive forums, so I am stuck over here pretending to be a girl so i can see what they are chitchatting about!!!!!!! :welcome

jackiebolen
10-10-2005, 15:05
Whiteblaze is sooooooo much better than Trailplace. Even trailforums is better than Trailplace. There's absolutely no reason to go there! Just say no! I like getting responses from a variety of people instead of just 1.

Frolicking Dinosaurs
10-10-2005, 16:34
I join Jackiebolen in feeling this forum is the better source for information. It just isn't possible to get a good cross-section of ideas when the owner of a site deletes posts that support ideas other than his own.

QHShowoman
10-11-2005, 15:26
I am a complete novice when it comes to actual AT hiking -- I've sort of been an "armchair enthusiast" for a couple years now and recently moved from NYC to VA and am working up to hopefully my first thru-hike (or at least, thru hike attempt!). Anyhow, my point is that for the past couple of years, I've read everything I can get my hands on about the AT and long-distance hiking in general, and I read both the forums here and on Wingfoot's site regularly, and I have to concur with much of what has been said in this thread about Trailplace.

Don't get me wrong, I think there is great information to be found on that site, but man, that place can be a total buzzkill. I find WF to often be smug and condescending in his posts.

RLC_FLA
10-11-2005, 15:57
"Don't get me wrong, I think there is great information to be found on that site, but man, that place can be a total buzzkill. I find WF to often be smug and condescending in his posts."
One thing Dan is is consistant. This is exactly what we thought of him when we met him on our thru in '89.

RLC_FLA
GA->ME '89


"Never try to teach a pig to sing, it wastes your time and it annoys the pig!"<!-- / message -->

QHShowoman
10-11-2005, 16:28
One of the things that rubs me the wrong way about WF is his negative attitude towards "trail angels" and "trail magic." Several times, well-meaning AT aficionados posted questions about where to leave coolers of sodas and other treats for thru-hikers, and his reponse is always essentially that such "trail magic" detracts from the thru-hiking experience.

Certainly, I am sure there are some folks out there that will agree with him on this point, and while I don't advocate people leaving a fully-stocked mini-bar at every shelter in the name of "trail magic" (although I am certain they wouldn't go unappreciated!), I would have to disagree that trail magic detracts from the thru-hiker's experience. In fact, from what I've read, it seems to be quite the opposite. My reasons for wanting to thru-hike are because I have a desire to reconnect with nature, mankind, and myself. I've become so jaded and distrustful over the past few years, that each time I read so much as a thru-hiker's account of trail magic, my eyes well up with tears knowing that indeed, there are people -- and communities -- out there who want to do good, just for the sake of doing good.

Maybe my opinion on this will differ once I've actually completed a thru-hike, but I can't imagine so.

lobster
10-11-2005, 16:49
Trail magic may be a short term positive and a long term negative.

I would assume that the inner reward for a successful hike is somehow related to the self-sufficiency and struggle of the hiker while traveling the distance!

QHShowoman
10-11-2005, 17:02
I would assume that the inner reward for a successful hike is somehow related to the self-sufficiency and struggle of the hiker while traveling the distance!
And if Trail Magic is something a thru-hiker merely happens upon, rather than relies upon, does it detract from one's sense of self-sufficiency?

Likewise, does relying on friends or family members to mail your resupply boxes to you along the trail -- rather than carrying what you need from start to finish, or resupplying in trail towns as you go along -- detract from one's sense of self-sufficiency?

Footslogger
10-11-2005, 17:07
Trail magic may be a short term positive and a long term negative.

I would assume that the inner reward for a successful hike is somehow related to the self-sufficiency and struggle of the hiker while traveling the distance!=================================
You'll struggle plenty ...even with an occasional cold soda or candy bar. The random acts of kindness shown by many are an integral part of the experience.

Trust me, when you come across a cooler alongside the trail your hike will be no more or less successful if you reach in and grab a cold one. Nice thing too is that if you choose not to partake you can walk on by and your hike will not be considered more or less successful.

'Slogger

SalParadise
10-11-2005, 19:04
wow, that I'd just have to see for myself, a thru-hiker who could actually pass up some trail magic.

In New York this year basically every water source was dry, and if it weren't for the kindness of trail angels putting out water, a lot of hikers would have been dangerously dehydrated.

Almost There
10-11-2005, 19:16
Lobster,

Man I am always amazed by your statements. Do you even get out and hike. Trail magic takes away from nothing. If you have been struggling for a week in July in 90 degree heat, and water is low everywhere, you are struggling with dehydration and come upon some water in a cooler, it helps to pick you up, and it doesn't take away from the experience because you have already been dealing with mental fortitude all week long. Over 2100 miles you will deal with plenty of adversity, if people decide to leave you little things along the way i doubt that it is the reason that you decide to keep going! Quit being a turd!

saimyoji
10-11-2005, 21:27
I personally take pride in knowing that I did something all by myself, with no help from anyone. Its the competitive nature forced on me through competitive swimming from an early age by my parents. Nonetheless, after my hike I would feel guilty for taking part in trail magic because it would mean I don't know if I could have made it through those parts without the help. This happens to me constantly in my life.

I applaud all trail angels and magicians, and encourage hikers to accept trail magic. I feel sorry for those of you who are as mentally damaged as I am.

Old Hickory MH
10-11-2005, 21:47
Hike your own hike, except or refuse trail magic. Everyone has a right to do as they seem fit. Trail magic comes in so many forms other than the cooler at a road crossing or person giving you a ride from town back to the trail. Just going out of your way to help someone else, an act of kindness or simply informing others of something they need to be prepared for on the trail. Why must people find ways to ruin a good thing? I love being out in the woods, far from the hustle and bustle of everyday life, surely there are more important things to disagree about than TRAIL MAGIC.
Old Hickory.............I'd rather die living life, than live life dying!

ed bell
10-11-2005, 22:57
=================================
You'll struggle plenty ...even with an occasional cold soda or candy bar. The random acts of kindness shown by many are an integral part of the experience.

Trust me, when you come across a cooler alongside the trail your hike will be no more or less successful if you reach in and grab a cold one. Nice thing too is that if you choose not to partake you can walk on by and your hike will not be considered more or less successful.

'Slogger

Sounds like some wise words to me. Nice analysis, Slogger.:sun

nerdishgrrl
10-12-2005, 09:32
Quit being a turd!
Lol, this is the best advice ever.

Spartan Hiker
10-12-2005, 09:46
If I want to stop and drink a coke or eat a candy bar that someone offers me along the trail, I will. If I don't, then I'll graciuosly decline and keep on moving. What I won't do is let some self appointed trail 'guru' get inside my mind and dictate my actions. The trail doesn't care one way or the other.

dougmeredith
10-12-2005, 10:36
his reponse is always essentially that such "trail magic" detracts from the thru-hiking experience.
Wingfoot (and many on this site too) is unable to distinguish between "the experience" and "his personal desired experience."


My reasons for wanting to thru-hike are because I have a desire to reconnect with nature, mankind, and myself.
I wish you luck in your quest, but I must say I get worried when I hear statements like this. I worry that such expectations are unrealistic. I wonder that anyone could finish a through hike for any reason other than that they like to hike. To me, it is just a hike. But maybe I'm just shallow. :)

Doug

Sly
10-12-2005, 10:42
I personally take pride in knowing that I did something all by myself, with no help from anyone.

Sounds like masturbastion! :eek:

QHShowoman
10-12-2005, 11:16
I wish you luck in your quest, but I must say I get worried when I hear statements like this. I worry that such expectations are unrealistic. I wonder that anyone could finish a through hike for any reason other than that they like to hike. To me, it is just a hike. But maybe I'm just shallow. :)

Doug
Sorry, I thought the "like to hike" part was a given!

I can't imagine why anyone who doesn't like to hike would attempt a thru-hike ... although I am sure there are many.

MOWGLI
10-12-2005, 11:42
My reasons for wanting to thru-hike are because I have a desire to reconnect with nature, mankind, and myself.

I think those are great reasons to hike. In many ways, they mirror mine. Regarding connecting with "mankind", the trail - in many ways - restored my faith in humanity. At least until I met the hiker community on the internet. :eek: Well, the internet hasn't actually dashed my faith...

Thankfully, and I'm sure most any long distance hiker who echo these sentiments, the "on trail" AT community is very unlike the AT "cyber" Community. At least from my experiences. That goes for me too. I am much quicker to criticize or be sarcastic with my keyboard, than with my mouth.

Wingfoot is actually very pleasant in-person too. He can be quite personable face to face or over the phone. Behind a keyboard though, those control issues kick in. But... its his site, so he can do what he wants.

QHShowoman
10-12-2005, 11:44
Fortunately, I am only a newbie to the world of AT Thru-Hiking and not internet message boards .... so I am not that easily "skeered."

Peaks
10-12-2005, 11:57
Trail magic may be a short term positive and a long term negative.

Trail magic benefits only a select few who happen to be in the right place at the right time.

If someone wants to give back to the trail, then get involved with trail work. That way, everyone who hikes can benefit. And don't kid yourself. It's hard work. Trail maintainers are the true trail angels.

Tha Wookie
10-12-2005, 12:04
or is still his way or the highway on his site?
That's like asking if the lynch mob here has lightened up on Warren Doyle.

tlbj6142
10-12-2005, 12:27
I am much quicker to criticize or be sarcastic with my keyboard, than with my mouth. So, which medium allows you be more faithful to yourself? BTW, I don't mean to pick on Mowgli directly, as others say the same thing all the time.

This is why I always have a problem when folks say "the people on the trail a great and I'd never meet such folks if it weren't for the trail". That's all BS. Great folks are everywhere (the mall, parking lots, waiting in line at the BMV, etc.), but the environment they are in changes their nature significantly.

I'm willing to bet if you were to run into same folks (without having already established an "on trail" relationship with them) you meet on the trail in a say a mall or waiting in a long line at the BMV, the outcome would be dramaticlly different.

TJ aka Teej
10-12-2005, 12:43
I misread who was typing what :O)

Anyways, it's impossible to comment in any way other than blind praise regarding WF or WD without being called "haters" or "lynch-mob" by the Internet police.

Oracle
10-12-2005, 13:24
I wish you luck in your quest, but I must say I get worried when I hear statements like this. I worry that such expectations are unrealistic. I wonder that anyone could finish a through hike for any reason other than that they like to hike. To me, it is just a hike. But maybe I'm just shallow.
I feel the same way you do, Doug. I hike because I like to hike. Spending a lot of time doing something that I like is how I define having a good time, I don't really see that there are any other reasons needed. If some people have them, that's fine, but I don't need any other reason to hike (or do other activities I enjoy) other than the fact I enjoy them :).

Nean
10-12-2005, 15:38
It's nice when doing something you really enjoy has so many rewards on so many levels:)

MOWGLI
10-12-2005, 16:01
Anyways, it's impossible to comment in any way other than blind praise regarding WF or WD without being called "haters" or "lynch-mob" by the Internet police.

I think thats a false statement TJ. Speaking personally, I have never "blindly praised" either individual, and yet, I have never been accused of being a "hater" or part of a "lynchmob."

Perhaps its all about balance?

By the way, your left rear taillight is out. I'll let you off with a warning - this time. :bse

Jack Tarlin
10-12-2005, 18:11
Wook and Mowgli:

The reasons that Mr. Doyle has been criticized here (and elsewhere) are many. In no particular order, some folks object to him damaging ALDHA's Endangered Services campaign; they object to him bragging about stealing from Trailside businesses; they object to him repeatedly encouraging hikers, especially younger ones, to engae in activities that are dangerous.

Other things that people object to: He returns to this website telling us that he comes as an "educator", and then refuses to answer criticisms and comments that he doesn't care for. Some people see this as his being sensible; others see at as rank cowardice. I'm sorry he has so litle confidence in his ability to defend his words and actions that he chooses to simply ignore the people who ask inconvenient questions.

You guys are comparing this criticism of Mr. Doyle to a lynching.

Guys, a little historical perspective is in order. People were lynched in this country primarily because of bigotry, hatred, and intolerance. To compare this history of barbarity to someone being chastised on a public Internet forum is a bit of a stretch, no?

Mr. Doyle, to my knowledge, has not yet been strung up. I suggest we tone down the rhetoric a bit.

To compare him to a lynching victim is laughable. It's also insulting to those souls who actually were the victimes of lynch mobs.

Mr. Doyle is being criticized here because some folks object to some of his words and actions, and because he feels that he's above criticism, so far above it that he can selectively ignore it.

To compare him to the victim of a lynch mob is really silly.

Lone Wolf
10-12-2005, 18:19
What trailside businesses has Warren bragged about stealing from?

Jack Tarlin
10-12-2005, 18:40
1. Privately owned and maintained roads in Maine that charge the public fees (which are posted). Warren has several times bragged about his avoidance of these fees, and has instructed others how they cam similarly
escape their financial obligationsin these locations.
2. Various and assorted theaters, which, when last I checked, expect
patrons to pay for the films they view.
3. Baxter State Park, which Warren repeatedly enters without paying posted
(and very well-known) user fees for day use. This revenue is
used, in opart, to keep the Park open.

Oh, and I guess having the group you lead trash a hiker hostel isn't stealing, but it is certainly an abuse of services. Incidentally, to all of Warren's fans---the ones that think he's been "lynched" here---he's been asked about the Kincora thing at least three times on this website. He hasn't answered. He seems to think he can avoid unpleasant realitieas by ignoring them. I also know that he talked to Bob about this unfortuanate event this past weekend. Gee, Warren, if I'm wrong, and Bob completely exonerated you and your wretchedly run group, then why haven't you told us so? How come you crawl under a rock everytime someone mentions this?

OK, Wolf?

Cookerhiker
10-12-2005, 18:41
Trail magic benefits only a select few who happen to be in the right place at the right time.

If someone wants to give back to the trail, then get involved with trail work. That way, everyone who hikes can benefit. And don't kid yourself. It's hard work. Trail maintainers are the true trail angels.
Trail Magic isn't limited to providing snacks, goodies, or even rides etc. During my recent section hike in Maine, I received Trail Magic several times from thruhikers:

1. On my first day, I lost the bottom of my (brand new) hiking pole. This needle-in-a-haystack situation puts me in a quandry but an hour later, Draggin passed me, asking "Is this your's?" Now that was Trail Magic!

2. Lost my last water bottle in the 100 Mile Wilderness but the next day, Rabbit caught up to me at Chairback Leanto and produced the bottle. More Trail Magic!

3. Now this one is embarassing: atop Little Boardman Mountain, I got turned around and began hiking back south. Fortunately about 1/3 of the way down, I met Kaboos who set me straight. All he did was show up at the right place, right time but to me, he was a Trail Angel!

And yes, I did receive traditional Trail Magic from a guy parked at Rt. 17.

Being a trail maintainer myself, I'll recuse myself from any opinion as to whether such work qualifies me as a Trail Angel.:rolleyes:

gumby
10-12-2005, 18:43
Don't know if he has lightened up or not, but I sent an e-mail to him about his site having the american flag depicted upside down. Here's the e-mail and his reply. Oh yeah, he said it wasn't a flag, just a graphic depiction, duh I'm not stupid.

Marc

context of email, his first

As a combat veteran who has dodged bullets while defending that flag
and what it represents, I appreciate your thoughts.

As a nation, we are in distress, imo.

Fortunately, in the next week or two, some of those in the White House
who are taking this nation to ruin will be indicted and will have to turn
their attention to staying out of jail. So, there is hope!

Admin

PS--That isn't a flag, by theway, just a graphic image with a depiction
of a flag on it.


----- Original Message -----
From: "Lone Wolf" <[email protected] (http://us.f541.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[email protected]&YY=20029&order=down&sort=date&pos=0)>
To: <[email protected] (http://us.f541.mail.yahoo.com/ym/[email protected]&YY=20029&order=down&sort=date&pos=0)>
Sent: Wednesday, October 12, 2005 1:06 PM
Subject: Website


>I was going to register on your site as I plan on
> hiking the AT soon. However, as a retired Air Force
> NCO I was offended by your display of the American
> Flag shown upside down. Flying the flag in this
> manner indicats that you are in distress and need
> help. Here is a link to the US Code that states this.
>
> http://www.jeffhead.com/liberty/flagdistress.htm (http://www.jeffhead.com/liberty/flagdistress.htm)
>
> Marc Valley
>

Nean
10-12-2005, 19:16
Trail work, Trail Magic, random acts of kindness are all worthy endeavors

Dances with Mice
10-12-2005, 19:21
That isn't a flag, by theway, just a graphic image with a depiction of a flag on it.Oh. So those weren't really his words or thoughts, just graphic depictions of them.

Jack Tarlin
10-12-2005, 19:26
I think Spartan Hiker said it best.

While I personally don't want to see isolated campsites or shelters become noisy party scenes, I can't see why anyone would object to small or large-scale Trail magic taking place in a town, park, roadside, or Trailhead. The folks who so strongly object to this are making a big fuss over a very small issue. Throwing a cookout at a public place like Bear Mountain Park or giving out sodas in a trailside parking lot is not ruining anyone's wilderness experience.

And it's really very simple: If you encounter Trail Magic on the Trail, and you aren't interested, you simply act the way you would anywhere else in the world when someone kindly offers you something you don't want: You smile at them, and say "No, thank you."

How tough is that?

One can accept kindnessess and favors, or one can politely decline them. But to get all bent out of shape over this issue is petty and mean-spirited.
This "magic" isn't being forced on anyone, and those who don't need or want it can simply keep hiking.

Honestly, anyone who spends much time worrying about this non-issue really needs to find something worthier to do with their time.

Perhaps they should go out hiking and clear their heads.

Sly
10-12-2005, 19:29
However, as a retired Air Force
> NCO I was offended by your display of the American
> Flag shown upside down. Flying the flag in this
> manner indicats that you are in distress and need
> help.

What's the problem? Ever hear of symbolism? WF has every right to protest as he choses and especially so as a vet, if it's peaceful and non-violent.

Frankly, they are many people that agree the country is in distress.

Jack Tarlin
10-12-2005, 19:47
You're right, Sly. There are many folks who feel this way.

The point you're missing, tho, is that very few of these folks feel that the best way of expressing their distress is by dis-resrespecting or abusing the symbol of this nation.

When folks have to stoop to insulting or desecrating flags to get their viewpoint across, I kind of have to wonder about the validity or value of their arguments.

Anyone who starts a debate by insulting the American flag has a ways to go before they elevate themselves back to a point where I want to hear what they have to say.

You're right....hanging a flag this way is symbolic. To me it's symbolic of rancor, bitterness, and dis-respect.

Sly
10-12-2005, 20:04
You're right....hanging a flag this way is symbolic. To me it's symbolic of rancor, bitterness, and dis-respect.

You're entitled to your opinion but, to whom, to the president and BushCo?

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt

They didn't make it the First Amendment for nothing.

MOWGLI
10-12-2005, 21:32
To compare him to the victim of a lynch mob is really silly.

Jack, welcome back. I hope you had a good time at The Gathering.

Regarding my coment about a "lynch mob", I was respnding to TJ's quote below;

Anyways, it's impossible to comment in any way other than blind praise regarding WF or WD without being called "haters" or "lynch-mob" by the Internet police.

Cookerhiker
10-13-2005, 10:15
You're right, Sly. There are many folks who feel this way.

The point you're missing, tho, is that very few of these folks feel that the best way of expressing their distress is by dis-resrespecting or abusing the symbol of this nation.

When folks have to stoop to insulting or desecrating flags to get their viewpoint across, I kind of have to wonder about the validity or value of their arguments.

Anyone who starts a debate by insulting the American flag has a ways to go before they elevate themselves back to a point where I want to hear what they have to say.

You're right....hanging a flag this way is symbolic. To me it's symbolic of rancor, bitterness, and dis-respect.
Displaying the flag upside down as a protest in not limited to the left (you didn't allege such in your post but many people assume it's the left who resort to such acts). Back in the 70s in your home state, the late right-wing governor Meldrim Thompson ordered all state flags upside down. Don't remember the exact "issue" - I think it was the Panama Canal treaty or recognition of China. But whatever the issue, as you say: "I kind of have to wonder about the validity or value of their arguments."

gumby
10-13-2005, 14:09
You're right....hanging a flag this way is symbolic. To me it's symbolic of rancor, bitterness, and dis-respect.
Jack, thanks for backing me up and agreeing with the spirit of what I said.

marc

Jack Tarlin
10-13-2005, 14:11
If I'd been a resident of New Hampshire then, I'd have dis-agreed very strongly with Governor Thompson's actions, regardless of his reasons for them.

Sly
10-13-2005, 14:21
Jack, thanks for backing me up and agreeing with the spirit of what I said.

marc,

If you read the bottom paragraph of your own link the author agrees with WF, but perhaps for different reason, and probably flies his flag upside down.

As a result of the unconstitutional acts, legislation and atrocities passed and/or committed by government agencies and officials against increaing numbers of US citizens and their life, liberty and property ... and as a result of policies that have allowed (and continue to allow) enemies of this nation to enter in large numbers through a porous immigration policy, I believe the life, liberty and property of US Citizens are in extreme and dire danger and distress.