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jred321
09-15-2014, 15:52
With about 6 months to go, I'm starting to think about the various aspects of leaving, one of which is quitting my job. I work in a small department of a large company in a leadership role (Director level, I'm not that important). I've been at the company for 9+ years, in this department for a little over 1 and have been making a fair amount of changes in my time here. I feel good about where I'll be leaving the department and where my projects will be when I leave.

That said, I can't just give them two weeks notice and ideally would actually find and train my successor before leaving. Originally I was thinking I would tell my leadership team in mid-January so there are two months to plan, transition, look for a new person, etc.... Then last week I was talking to a former boss about my plan and he said I shouldn't tell them until after bonus which is in February (decided early Feb, delivered mid-Feb). While that makes sense, it gives them less time to transition and whatnot, plus it seems a little greedy. I don't necessarily need the bonus money, but I am quitting my job so more money in the bank would be a good thing, and we phrase it as bonus money is based on the work you have done over the last year, raises are based on what the expectation is for the coming year.

What is the proper etiquette with something like this? Wait until after bonus to tell them I'm leaving and give less time for the transition, or tell them earlier so there is more transition time but risks not getting a bonus?

kayak karl
09-15-2014, 15:59
What's a good job reference worth to you?

jred321
09-15-2014, 16:02
Well since I will need a job at some point in the future (hopefully a different industry all together but we'll see) I don't want to burn any bridges. But if I told them mid-Feb (right after bonus) I could push my start date to early April and still give them 6 weeks notice.

I actually think my management team will be very supportive and understanding of my decision.

kayak karl
09-15-2014, 16:07
before you give notice make sure you have copies of all your performance appraisals just in case someone tries to give a bad reference in the future.

OCDave
09-15-2014, 16:13
I actually think my management team will be very supportive and understanding of my decision.

If above is true, then bring them up to speed now. Perhaps, portraying plan as a sabbatical or inquiring about a Leave of Absence may provide options your employer might offer which you haven't considered.

Good Luck

swisscross
09-15-2014, 16:27
I realize this is not actually pertain to you...

We had an employee turn in a three week notice.
Turned out he was copying files and documents the entire time.
Was caught a few days before his last and his portable hard drive was confiscated and was he was escorted out the door.

Since then we implemented a policy that if you turn in your resignation you were to leave that day, at that moment.

I asked my boss for a leave of absence to cycle across the US a few years ago and his answer was, "sure but if we don't need you when you are finished you have to find another job".

Does sound like you are in a great position with a good head on your shoulders. You know your employer better than anyone here.
I am sure you will make the correct decision for you and your employer.

Traveler
09-15-2014, 16:53
This can be a difficult issue, especially at the Director management level.

A few thoughts here;

Develop your letter of resignation. This goes into your personnel file and can become part of your next job hunt referral. Keep it positive and grateful for the considerations extended you during your employ. Avoid mentioning you are leaving to hike the Trail (or specifics of another job you have accepted), keep the reason for leaving vague with phrasing like "I am pursuing a different direction" or "looking at other opportunities", etc.

You are smart to think about the timing of the notice. You should look into company policy guidelines for this. Some companies only want 2 weeks notice, however, senior management (director level would be in this category) and project managers may be required to provide extended notice. Conversely, some companies will waive the two week notice and dismiss you the day you resign, complete with security guard to verify you aren't taking office property out with your personal things. If there are no guidelines, you will need to have a heart to heart with your manager to see how the timing can be worked out.

Only you have any idea of what to expect as a reaction, especially if this is coming as a full on surprise to your manager. There may be confrontational things that happen, but you need to maintain your professional composure. This is likely the person you will need to ask for a letter of recommendation. If they want a few more weeks notice than you want to give, negotiate a signed letter of recommendation from your manager (not a bad idea to do this regardless). That way you avoid returning later asking for one and you have a leg up once the Trail is behind you and you are again in the job market.

After you provide notice, don't feel badly when you are treated differently. People will pull inward to the team you manage and await the new boss, which can appear mean or detached, but is really part of business behavior. Being escorted off property is not uncommon, though it may sting a bit, employers can be sensitive to proprietary materials leaving.

Director level positions are typically integral with the company (usually at the corporate officer level), though you have marginalized this a bit in your description, your firm may not have marginalized it. For this level position at your age, it is indeed indication you have a good career in front of you. To protect that career, you want the best possible recommendation you can get so comport yourself accordingly. If timing is still a crap shoot after the next few weeks, you might want to consider engaging an executive search consultant to help you with the transition out. They will likely be very interested in marketing you when you return.

If the bonus is not a lot of money, I would take the chance of losing it and visit your manager early in the process. If its substantial (over 10% of your annual income for example) it may be a heavier thought. Keep in mind, ethical behavior can be costly at times, this may be one of those times.

Hope this helps and good luck!

jred321
09-15-2014, 16:54
before you give notice make sure you have copies of all your performance appraisals just in case someone tries to give a bad reference in the future.
Meh. Not too concerned. The people I would list as references I am also friends with and technically our HR department doesn't give any of that info. People have had trouble getting security clearances at future jobs because our official policy is that all we say about past employees is that they worked here. A former manager of mine had to go meet the FBI background check person on the plaza because officially our company wouldn't let them talk about a past employee.


If above is true, then bring them up to speed now. Perhaps, portraying plan as a sabbatical or inquiring about a Leave of Absence may provide options your employer might offer which you haven't considered.

I thought about that but I'm definitely leaning more towards never working here again afterwards. Part of why I'm hiking is to start to figure out what to do with the next 30 years of my life. What I've learned in the last 10 is that the place I work now is not where I want to be for the next 30 years even though I would get paid well and have a secure, stable job. So I feel like if I asked for a sabatical there is the implication that I'm coming back and it would then come across worse if they granted me one and then I said I don't want to come back.


I realize this is not actually pertain to you...

We had an employee turn in a three week notice.
Turned out he was copying files and documents the entire time.
Was caught a few days before his last and his portable hard drive was confiscated and was he was escorted out the door.

Since then we implemented a policy that if you turn in your resignation you were to leave that day, at that moment.


All traffic to and from any of our USB ports is logged. I'd have to be pretty dumb to try to steal things that way :) But really there is nothing I need from here. I work in IT and at this point my job is meetings, email and PowerPoint with the occassional spreadsheet thrown in. The only people that we have walked out as soon as they give their notice are people going to competitors who have access to advanced/strategic/sensitive data.

And thanks everyone for the well wishes!

jred321
09-15-2014, 17:11
Thanks for the thoughts! Some specific comments below:


You are smart to think about the timing of the notice. You should look into company policy guidelines for this. Some companies only want 2 weeks notice, however, senior management (director level would be in this category) and project managers may be required to provide extended notice. Conversely, some companies will waive the two week notice and dismiss you the day you resign, complete with security guard to verify you aren't taking office property out with your personal things. If there are no guidelines, you will need to have a heart to heart with your manager to see how the timing can be worked out.
I'll have to do some research on this. I also have a friend who works in HR in another department that I can use to consult, and other friends at the 2VP and up level in other departments that I can run things by. Probably around Thanksgiving or so this year I'll start consulting them to get their take.


Only you have any idea of what to expect as a reaction, especially if this is coming as a full on surprise to your manager. There may be confrontational things that happen, but you need to maintain your professional composure. This is likely the person you will need to ask for a letter of recommendation. If they want a few more weeks notice than you want to give, negotiate a signed letter of recommendation from your manager (not a bad idea to do this regardless). That way you avoid returning later asking for one and you have a leg up once the Trail is behind you and you are again in the job market.
Thanks for the thought but honestly I'm not worried. It may be a surprise and I'm sure my boss won't be happy but she'll understand and be very supportive. She's just that kind of person, especially when I phrase it as a personal growth opportunity. My current boss hired me on as part of our leadership development program 10 years ago and is big on job satisfaction, development and growth.


After you provide notice, don't feel badly when you are treated differently. People will pull inward to the team you manage and await the new boss, which can appear mean or detached, but is really part of business behavior.
Looking forward to that. Then I won't get pulled into a bunch of garbage that I don't want to be involved in :)


If timing is still a crap shoot after the next few weeks, you might want to consider engaging an executive search consultant to help you with the transition out.
Good idea thanks!


If the bonus is not a lot of money, I would take the chance of losing it and visit your manager early in the process. If its substantial (over 10% of your annual income for example) it may be a heavier thought. Keep in mind, ethical behavior can be costly at times, this may be one of those times.

Historically it has been >10% of my salary. And given how my mid year went and some of the feedback I have gotten from my manager and her boss, combined with the fact that I was hired in at a lower title position and then took over my original boss's job at the start of this calendar year with no new title or corresponding raise I would expect both a new title next year along with a good raise and bonus. In theory I should stick around for another year, or wait until summer to do a SOBO so I have that title to put on my resume and extra salary bump but I don't think I can stand it that much longer

Speakeasy TN
09-15-2014, 18:01
Go with your gut.

In '11 I couldn't have been more surprised when my GM said thanks for the 3 month notice but all he needed was 2 weeks notice and a promise not to let his wife find out what I was doing because she had always wanted to hike the AT and he couldn't afford for her to quit work.

My vote would be to play completely above board. I went back to work for the same company and they already know my plans for the Spring.

Coffee
09-15-2014, 18:17
My only advice is that you should think about how the management of the company would treat you in the case of financial difficulty requiring layoffs. Have they been fair, reasonable and thoughtful when having to lay people off in the past who had good track records? Is the character of management consistent with providing notice and severance to people who are being let go? If the track record is good and you are working for high grade people, I'd say be open with them now and allow for a long transition. If the track record is poor, I would only feel obliged to provide four weeks notice for a management position or two weeks for a staff position. Just IMO, no one can really provide advice w/o knowing the people involved.

Feral Bill
09-15-2014, 18:19
Due what you choose, but not out of any sense of obligation. Companies get rid of good employees all the time, due to mergers, poor sales, etc. You owe your employer nothing, beyond your job performance. Two weeks notice is customary. Anything more is a gift from you.

Trainguy
09-15-2014, 18:19
If your bonus is based on your performance during the previous year, what difference does it make when deciding when to give your notice? it's apparent you did well in your capacity as a director and appear to be team based, and want to do the right thing here. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but even though you don't need the money it seems you think they may stiff you in regards to your bonus? I would do whatever your company policy calls for and if you can do more than that, that would be good.

I'm a bit biased myself as I was a worker bee, not in management...and where I worked there was severe, constant strife between labor and management. But that's beside the point I guess.

hikehunter
09-15-2014, 18:40
Being the owner/CEO/CFO..etc. of my own window company, I would hope that my employees be honest. I have always run my company with the adage : " the fastest way to get fired is to steal from me or lie to me."
That being said... I had a lady working for me a few years ago that wanted to take 2 months off to go on a trip to Europe. We talked it over and she worked upto the week before she left. In that last 3 weeks she trained her replacement. I hired her back about 9 months later when her replacement left me to start a family. Things worked well for me. Yes I had a little higher pay roll for that month during the switch, however, I had a quality person training an other quality person in the proper way to do things. I would lesson to any employee that came to me and presented an honest, fact filled case, for time off. I would look at options that were good for me and the employee.

....................this has been just my thoughts on the subject as an employer.
good luck.
I may see you on the trail .... I start Feb.15th or there abouts.:-?

joshuasdad
09-15-2014, 19:10
Since you are in IT--a field where comings and goings are a way of life--I don't see why you need to give too much notice, 2-4 weeks should be fine, and your experience should get you a job easily after you finish. That being said, do you really want to leave a solid job (and possibly your dog) after a single overnight shakedown hike?

jred321
09-15-2014, 19:30
My only advice is that you should think about how the management of the company would treat you in the case of financial difficulty requiring layoffs. Have they been fair, reasonable and thoughtful when having to lay people off in the past who had good track records? Is the character of management consistent with providing notice and severance to people who are being let go? If the track record is good and you are working for high grade people, I'd say be open with them now and allow for a long transition. If the track record is poor, I would only feel obliged to provide four weeks notice for a management position or two weeks for a staff position. Just IMO, no one can really provide advice w/o knowing the people involved.
We are generally good with layoffs but they are very few and far between. In general for a big company we are very good to our employees.

jred321
09-15-2014, 19:34
If your bonus is based on your performance during the previous year, what difference does it make when deciding when to give your notice? it's apparent you did well in your capacity as a director and appear to be team based, and want to do the right thing here. Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but even though you don't need the money it seems you think they may stiff you in regards to your bonus? I would do whatever your company policy calls for and if you can do more than that, that would be good.

In theory, the bonus is based off of your previous year's performance. However a bonus is just that, a bonus. They are not a given and are part of what is used to make employees happy. If you're not sticking around, they don't really care how happy you are and could easily redistribute that money to other employees. Would they? Who knows, but they could. While ratings and rankings are set in the Fall, the bonus pool isn't defined until after end of year results are posted and it isn't until after that when they decide who gets what.

jred321
09-15-2014, 19:43
That being said, do you really want to leave a solid job (and possibly your dog) after a single overnight shakedown hike?

While I may be able to do my job well, I don't particularly like it and am not even sure IT is where I want to be. Especially IT at a company in the industry I currently work in. So yes, I am leaving my job regardless of my hiking plans. Hiking is actually keeping me from doing it sooner. That said, I've been around enough at my current company and know enough people that I should be able to find something there when I get back if need be. My parents will watch my dog (or I had a former coworker volunteer to do it as well) so he will be well taken care of while I'm gone. While backpacking hasn't been my focus before now, I have done lots of outdoor activities over the years (including plenty of day hiking) and spend a lot of time being active outdoors. The people who know me that I have told my intentions to are not exactly surprised that this is something I would do. I plan to do more overnight trips in the fall once my marathon is over which leaves me plenty of time to figure out if I truly don't want to attempt a thru before quitting.

atmilkman
09-15-2014, 19:48
Did you sign a statement, say - like the last page of a handbook stating that they could let you go at anytime for no reason at all without notice? A lot of companies do that now.

Malto
09-15-2014, 20:00
I have been in your shoes sorta. I ended up taking a leave of absence for my thru from the Company I worked for then ended up leaving 9 months after my return. It likely was in line with the role that you are current in.

Here's how I would play it. Assuming you are hiking regardless of reaction, objection etc which is what I read..... I would request a leave of absence as soon as possible. I worked mine over a year ahed of time and by the time I left half the Company was following my hike on Postholer. I got them caught up in the excitement. The reason I would ask for a LOA is that there is no reason not to. It announces your intent early, without commitment and gives you a potential option that you may want post hike, it keeps your options open. It also will give you some idea on how the Company would handle your announcement of leaving. If they are unreasonable about a LOA then perhaps they also would be unreasonable about the bonus. And while in theory it is based on last years performance you know full well the subjective nature of compensation. Who are you going to reward? Someone who is leaving or someone that is staying? If there is any question about them being unreasonable then I would wait until two weeks prior. My two cents.

jred321
09-15-2014, 21:14
Did you sign a statement, say - like the last page of a handbook stating that they could let you go at anytime for no reason at all without notice? A lot of companies do that now.

No need to sign anything. That's just the law


In almost all states, including Connecticut, private-sector employers and employees generally have the right to terminate employment “at-will,” that is, whenever either party wishes, without giving a reason.
http://www.cga.ct.gov/2001/rpt/2001-R-0246.htm

jred321
09-15-2014, 21:16
I have been in your shoes sorta. I ended up taking a leave of absence for my thru from the Company I worked for then ended up leaving 9 months after my return. It likely was in line with the role that you are current in.

Here's how I would play it. Assuming you are hiking regardless of reaction, objection etc which is what I read..... I would request a leave of absence as soon as possible. I worked mine over a year ahed of time and by the time I left half the Company was following my hike on Postholer. I got them caught up in the excitement. The reason I would ask for a LOA is that there is no reason not to. It announces your intent early, without commitment and gives you a potential option that you may want post hike, it keeps your options open. It also will give you some idea on how the Company would handle your announcement of leaving. If they are unreasonable about a LOA then perhaps they also would be unreasonable about the bonus. And while in theory it is based on last years performance you know full well the subjective nature of compensation. Who are you going to reward? Someone who is leaving or someone that is staying? If there is any question about them being unreasonable then I would wait until two weeks prior. My two cents.

Thanks. But if I go the LOA route now, they'll know my intent and I won't have any way to go back on things.

I'm thinking my best bet is to talk to my friend in HR and some of my old bosses who have more experience in rating/ranking/bonus

MuddyWaters
09-15-2014, 22:00
If they were to fire you, how much notice would they give you?

Funny how one-sided that notice thing usually is.

Major companies don't give good or bad references, and neither should any one if they know what is good for them. It opens you up to litigation. Usually they verify employment history only. Dates , titles, functions. Yes, some small employers are willing to badmouth people because they are unprofessional and petty.

The conditions under which you leave are up to you. Anything more than 2 weeks is unnecessary. For sure collect the bonus, you are due it based on past performance, not future.

JJMorse
09-15-2014, 22:57
You know your coworkers, work atmosphere, and job better than anyone else. If you've done your job for 9 years you should know what it takes to train someone up for your position. Just think about it from the perspective of your higher-ups. Let them know what you plan to do at an appropriate time, and do it prepared with a plan for your successor, and let them know you'll be active in that role in your remaining days. If you think you may want to come back after, tell them. Don't overthink it... you are literally the person that knows best.

I asked my boss in March of this year if I could do an AT thru in 2015 and frame it as a sabbatical. I mostly gave 1 year's notice because I wanted to be sure it was possible before researching, buying gear etc. because it may not have been possible if I had to outright quit my job and have nothing when I got back. If not for that, I think 3 months would have been appropriate for my job. Yes 2-weeks is the "acceptable" rule in America, but I know that with the nature of my job and the time it would take to hire and train a replacement that it would leave my office in a bad place for a while with any less notice than that. And my bosses know that. And my bosses know that I know that. Just do what's right!

FYI they are all very supportive and excited for me (and envious). Bosses are people too.

denefi
09-15-2014, 23:10
Really interesting thread. I'm in a somewhat similar situation so will chime in on how I'm approaching it. Worth noting, I'm planning on a late April to 5/1 NOBO start, and am more of a subject matter expert than director/VP. Also, it is important to me that I leave with my springtime bonus - big chunk of what I plan to walk with.

The head of my department is known for saying 'ok, well there's the door' whenever he hears that there's any issue with an employee. He doesn't act on it (i.e., doesn't fire people), but it makes me wonder if my bonus would be impacted if he caught on. For that reason, I don't want to fill him in. I'm basically looking to give my two weeks when the bonus hits my bank account so that I can wrap things up and start hiking.

In a perfect world, I would like to just tell them now and help them plan for it. The trust isn't there, though, so here's how I'm working around the issue:

I have a manager who I consider a friend, and who is herself planning to leave the department. My guess is that she'll still be there in the spring, though, because the next role she's going for is a tough internal transition. I mentioned my plans offhand to her a while back. Unsure on whether she believes me or not on the hike, but I'm pretty sure she's expecting me to be gone after next year's bonus. I already work really hard to make her life/work easier, and as 2015 rolls around I'll start to draw up procedures and notes on everything that I know that the group could hurt on if I left. I may also let her know about my plans, express my concern on the bonus, and ask her what she wants me to do under the radar to get ahead of the transition. People don't typically give more than 2 weeks unless for an internal move, so this would be doing more than necessary. I'm hoping that she'll give me a solid letter of recommendation prior to my departure. I'll be in the same place as you with regards to finding new work post-hike.

Offshore
09-16-2014, 07:37
What's a good job reference worth to you?

Many companies won't give a reference, good or bad, for fear of litigation - so I wouldn't be all that concerned about formal references. I've been at the same firm for 23 years and over that time the policy had evolved from only HR giving references, to only HR verifying dates of employment, to use of a third party firm to verify length of employment. I'd also skip spending a lot of time writing an involved resignation letter - it just needs to be "I'm resigning as of this date. Enjoyed my time here at ... Wish you all the very best..." type of thing. To an employer it really comes down to how this will affect their business in terms of disruption - they don't care why you are leaving.

The biggest issue in resigning is to protect your network by not screwing over individuals that could help or hurt you when you come back off trail and return to the working world. I'd even go as far as perhaps keeping a journal and inviting selected members of your professional network to follow the journal. This would keep you active in your professional circles even though your are gone for a few months.

Traveler
09-16-2014, 07:43
.....People don't typically give more than 2 weeks unless for an internal move, so this would be doing more than necessary.

This really depends on the level of employ. For hourly labor, clerical, and first/second level supervisory positions this is pretty much true, however at senior or program management levels things change with respect to leaving a position and a longer notice may be needed or required due to the complexities of the work. The world gets much smaller at the Director level and word of mouth can travel fast, keep in mind there will be a 5 to 6 month employment void a prospective employer will want to know about if the position is in senior level or project management. That void in and of itself can be an "off switch" if the prospective employer feels the applicant may bolt again after putting a great deal of investment into. Though likely everything will work out well, if one does not consider these things in a job market that has a significant number of overqualified people applying for jobs, the chances of success are reduced if the process does not go well.

jred321
09-16-2014, 07:51
If they were to fire you, how much notice would they give you?



Realistically, if you don't know you're going to get fired, you aren't paying attention. Layoffs aside, it takes us about a year to fire someone. HR makes them be put on a performance plan, requires the manager have conversations with them, that you are monitored specifically against the performance plan, and by the time all is said and done it's about a year. If you don't realize during that year that you're going to get fired and start trying to find another job it's your own fault.

jred321
09-16-2014, 07:53
The head of my department is known for saying 'ok, well there's the door' whenever he hears that there's any issue with an employee.
That manager would be fired at our company. That's not what our culture is. I actually interviewed someone about a month ago from an external company and she used a similar line a few times during the interview. Overall the recommendation was not to move forward with her because she would not fit in with our culture.

jred321
09-16-2014, 07:56
I'd even go as far as perhaps keeping a journal and inviting selected members of your professional network to follow the journal. This would keep you active in your professional circles even though your are gone for a few months.
I'm probably going to change my LinkedIn profile to say "Thru Hiker." Thinking the company/employer will be "Mother Nature." :)

wdanner
09-16-2014, 11:26
Your post sounds like something I would have written. I am also 31, working a secure job with great pay but wanting to change the direction of my life. I think your response depends on how you view the integrity of your company. I once worked at a company that made quarterly 401k contributions and with the timing of my resignation they made the last one 6 months after I left. That's a company with integrity. I've also worked for a company where I felt like they would cheat me out of every penny they could. If you tell them you're leaving prior to bonus time, do you suspect that they will stiff you on the bonus? More than 10% of your salary isn't exactly chump change, regardless of whether or not your need it. If that bonus is based on your past performance, you earned it and that's all that matters. If you think there's a chance they might stiff you on it, would giving 6 weeks notice and pushing your start date back to April still burn a bridge?

peakbagger
09-16-2014, 12:34
The small company I work for has provisions for leave of absence and breaks in service where a employee leaves and if there is mutual interest they come back to work and get back some longevity benefits.

While working for a prior employer that was going through rough times, any hint that someone was looking was an instant justification to move to the top of the layoff list so it depends on the companies prospects.

The one thing you need to work out is if what do you do if when you give your notice that they offer you more money or a major promotion?

jred321
09-16-2014, 13:11
If you think there's a chance they might stiff you on it, would giving 6 weeks notice and pushing your start date back to April still burn a bridge?
I'm not sure how they would handle it in relation to bonuses, which is why I'm hesitant. Generally they're pretty good about things but IT budgets have been flat for the past 5+ years so people are always looking for the extra few bucks when possible. There are two reasons I'm not sure about pushing back to April (besides wanting to not work here longer than I have to). First, I'm not sure how it would be taken to announce my resignation that I have been planning for a long time immediately after bonus. The second is that it would be great to finish on my birthday (August 27) and the longer I push off time the more I would have to watch the clock as I go which I don't really want to have to do.

jred321
09-16-2014, 13:13
The one thing you need to work out is if what do you do if when you give your notice that they offer you more money or a major promotion?
I went through that once before when I was going to leave. They gave me both a raise, a promotion, and let me know what my bonus was going to be 3 months ahead of when I got it. This time I know my answer to their counter - no. The only way I would consider it would be with a significant counter and the agreement that I'd leave in the summer for a SOBO but that counter would have to be pretty damn good.

slbirdnerd
09-16-2014, 15:23
As the HR lady, I can tell you that 2 weeks is enough, 4 is wonderful and 6 is a gift. Question--put the bonus aside: Is there any chance you tell them early, give plenty of notice and offer to train your replacement, only to have them show you the door early? Unless you KNOW they love you, too much notice can be a bad thing. Having said that, if you wait until after the bonus, they may see right thru that and think the lesser of you. If you're really a great employee and they really do love you, I would hope they would give you the bonus anyway. If it were me, I think I would be as honest as possible with my boss as early as makes sense. Only you can answer when it makes sense, I guess.

magneto
09-16-2014, 17:58
When you return from the trail, start your own business. You won't have to worry about getting another job. If you are going to bust your butt working hard, why not do it to make yourself rich instead of someone else?

2015 Lady Thru-Hiker
09-16-2014, 18:59
That manager would be fired at our company. That's not what our culture is. I actually interviewed someone about a month ago from an external company and she used a similar line a few times during the interview. Overall the recommendation was not to move forward with her because she would not fit in with our culture.

That, unfortunately, has become our company culture. Oh, they dress it up and say something like "if you don't like it we can free you for a new future" hence, I will not be giving notice until I am ready to be freed for my new future :( a shame to feel that way for a company you've worked for almost 15 years.

lemon b
09-16-2014, 19:57
Companies and their reactions are different. As a rule of thumb 2 weeks notice is expected. As some have indicated resigning certain places results in an escort out the door. Others are more reasonable. Often times Companies will only give out dates of employment. The question then asked is would you hire this person back. This type of answer is just the company covering their butt and following legal advice.

You have been there 9 plus years and must have a network of co-workers who will speak with a future employer from their home. It is always a good idea not to speak badly about any past employer. We get more bees with honey.

Given that you have worked for this company for 9 plus years you should know the answers.
My first concern was always my children and making sure that they and their mother didn't suffer any hardship. Heck I kept my X wife on my health coverage for no cost to her even though the court did not require me to do so. For years. The reason was that she was my kids mother and therefore important in their lives.

When younger and highly marketable I gave the two weeks several times but always left the door open to train a replacement. I'd do this by communicating openly and honestly with co-workers who had become friends. Was not out to stress them out either. Thats my experience I'm certain others have traveled different paths. I've also discovered that after many years old companies close, people die, and the like.

A good employer is a gift. I've had some good ones but never one who just said. Go ahead and take up to six months to do your own thing. If you have an employer like that Keep them and do your best.

jred321
09-17-2014, 09:47
Question--put the bonus aside: Is there any chance you tell them early, give plenty of notice and offer to train your replacement, only to have them show you the door early?
I don't think so. The reality is they'll take any help they can get especially in regards to transitioning, who to transition what to, how the team would operate, etc.... Likely my position would still be open when I get back. I've had an individual contributor position on my team that has been open for almost 6 months now. The other consideration, though, is that I have a fair amount of stock from a previous bonus that I lose if I leave the company before February 7.


When you return from the trail, start your own business. You won't have to worry about getting another job. If you are going to bust your butt working hard, why not do it to make yourself rich instead of someone else?
Definitely something that has crossed my mind and an option I'm considering. I'd have to figure out what kind of business I'd want to start though.

magneto
09-17-2014, 09:49
You'll have plenty of time to think about it on the trail. Make it something to do with hiking - then you will be getting paid to do something you love.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

jred321
09-17-2014, 10:03
A friend of a friend lives in Utah and does "life coaching" which, from what I gather, involves taking people hiking and/or mountain biking. Sounds like a pretty good business to me :)

rafe
09-17-2014, 10:03
Due what you choose, but not out of any sense of obligation. Companies get rid of good employees all the time, due to mergers, poor sales, etc. You owe your employer nothing, beyond your job performance. Two weeks notice is customary. Anything more is a gift from you.

I'll go with this response. When faced with the same decision way back when, I respectfully requested a leave of absence, but in the same letter I said, if the LOA could not be granted, then I would be resigning. I gave that letter to my boss about a month before my departure date.

Given the OP's ambivalence about the job he's leaving, I don't see what the fuss is about. He's looking for a change, of jobs or of career, so there's not all that much to lose.

Most permanent hiring in the corporate world is "at will." There is no long term commitment. Companies can and do lay off workers all the time, and workers come and go of their own volition. Things might be different at a smaller firm, or when leaving a key role for which there's no obvious replacement. But in most of corporate America, employees are interchangeable and nobody is indispensable.

jred321
09-17-2014, 10:49
You'll have plenty of time to think about it on the trail. Make it something to do with hiking - then you will be getting paid to do something you love.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Like buying an old church that's about a quarter of a mile from the trail in North Adams and turning it into a hostel? :)

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1288-Massachusetts-Ave_North-Adams_MA_01247_M38028-35491?row=1

Mags
09-17-2014, 11:11
Since you are in IT--a field where comings and goings are a way of life--I don't see why you need to give too much notice, 2-4 weeks should be fine, and your experience should get you a job easily after you finish. That being said, do you really want to leave a solid job (and possibly your dog) after a single overnight shakedown hike?


As another IT professional (not in the management level though as a caveat), it seems if you stay too long in one job in IT, people wonder what is wrong. Have your skills atrophied? Do you only know a limited scope of technology? Etc.

This is in Colorado where the job market is very good for IT. Other areas, where the job market is stagnant, may be different.

jred321
09-17-2014, 11:30
Have your skills atrophied? Do you only know a limited scope of technology? Etc.



Being in management leaves you with the same questions. I think I'm probably worse at hands on technology skills now than I was 5 years ago but I can create a PowerPoint like nobody's business

joshuasdad
09-17-2014, 12:53
Like buying an old church that's about a quarter of a mile from the trail in North Adams and turning it into a hostel? :)

http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/1288-Massachusetts-Ave_North-Adams_MA_01247_M38028-35491?row=1


Nice location for a hostel, but I wonder if the neighbors in the residential area would object? Looks like it would take a small fortune to renovate and HVAC as well (there are no bedrooms or full bathrooms). Love to see it happen though!

jred321
09-17-2014, 13:34
Psh details :p

I do have a friend on the city council there (if you pass through North Adams on the trail, he's the one with bikes for hikers to use) and have another friend that owns a plumbing business (maybe could get some throwaway stuff from people's renovations). And then how hard can it be to build bunks? Bedrooms are overrated :)

wdanner
09-17-2014, 15:46
Having said that, if you wait until after the bonus, they may see right thru that and think the lesser of you.

If they really do think the lesser of you, and that bonus was something you earned based on your work ethic from the previous year, you should run for the door anyway because that's a shyster company right there. I refuse to work for places like these anymore based on my past experience. Life's too short for that stuff.

hikehunter
09-19-2014, 00:14
As I was reading there was something about Feb. 7th. is that a sotck/ownership deal?
If that is the case being vested is going to be a question.
Most big companies offer stock to employees that have been and mostlikely will be around for some time....
...they do not just offer it to any and all...
If this is the case you need to see human resources about the rules/law. ...:confused::eek::confused:

mark schofield
09-19-2014, 06:36
what do you think is the right thing to do?

jred321
09-19-2014, 07:07
As I was reading there was something about Feb. 7th. is that a sotck/ownership deal?
If that is the case being vested is going to be a question.
Most big companies offer stock to employees that have been and mostlikely will be around for some time....
...they do not just offer it to any and all...
If this is the case you need to see human resources about the rules/law. ...:confused::eek::confused:

It's not stock options, it's restricted stock. It gets awarded with a bonus, it shows up in your account, you earn dividends on it, but if you leave the company before 3 years from the awarded date you lose it. Correct it is not given to everyone and is used as an incentive to keep people from leaving. It's not an every year thing for me - the set vesting this coming year was given to me as part of the counter offer they gave when I was planning to leave the company. I have a little from last year that I will lose, but none from the year in between when my bonus was all cash.

jred321
09-19-2014, 07:08
what do you think is the right thing to do?

Tell them far enough out that there is time to transition and plan around the move but not so far out that if something happens I screw myself with them.

Havana
09-21-2014, 12:59
I'm not considering a hike for a few years -- gotta get the last kid off to college -- but I'm a few steps above you in the foodchain of a large IT company and have a good sense for what your struggling with. Like denefi, I say two weeks notice is sufficient. That is customary and given that you're not looking to come back to the company or the job there is no reason to give any more. I would leave the reason as "to pursue other opportunities". No need for them to know the first step of which is to hike 2,200 miles while trying to sort out the other opportunities. Unless your company has a specific policy for them the likelihood of sabbatical or LOA are very low. And make sure you wait until the bonus is banked. :) Thirty years ago businesses worked differently. Today employment is largely a simple contractual relationship severable at any time.

rocketsocks
09-21-2014, 14:25
I'm not considering a hike for a few years -- gotta get the last kid off to college -- but I'm a few steps above you in the foodchain of a large IT company and have a good sense for what your struggling with. Like denefi, I say two weeks notice is sufficient. That is customary and given that you're not looking to come back to the company or the job there is no reason to give any more. I would leave the reason as "to pursue other opportunities". No need for them to know the first step of which is to hike 2,200 miles while trying to sort out the other opportunities. Unless your company has a specific policy for them the likelihood of sabbatical or LOA are very low. And make sure you wait until the bonus is banked. :) Thirty years ago businesses worked differently. Today employment is largely a simple contractual relationship severable at any time.
I agree with this. My Pop worked for the same company for 35 years and almost got clipped in his last years which would have screwed him out of his full pension, luckily he had friends in the right places pullin' for him. Staying with the same company this long these days is almost unheard of...Do what ya gotta do, nobody really cares, and I don't mean this in a disrespectful way, just sayin' when all is said and done there's only you.

SteelCut
09-21-2014, 16:19
Very interesting topic. I am in the exact position as the OP; however at 53yo I'm much farther along my career path. I plan on giving my notice at the beginning of January effective at the end of February. This gives nearly two months notice for my employer to begin the recruitment process to find my replacement. After 30 years in software engineering and engineering management, I'm ready to hang up the keyboard and figure out some new direction for the remainder of my life. Consequently, my leaving will be more of a sabbatical/retirement from software engineering than a resignation to work for another company in the same industry. I've thought about approaching the company about a formal sabbatical or leave of absence but it's not a company that I would really want to come back and work for again so I've dismissed that idea. I'm definitely not going to tell them about my plans to do a thru-hike of the AT.

jred321
10-23-2014, 17:22
The plot thickens. I just had my 1x1 with my boss. She said they had hired someone earlier in the year, a peer of mine, with the intention of having him become her successor. Both she and her boss are now thinking that this other person won't be a good fit as her successor but now both of them are thinking I would be a good fit. She wanted to know what I thought about becoming her successor and starting to be groomed for that role. I had previously told her that level was too far removed from actual work and too much just dealing with garbage and I didn't want to be her successor. I was able to play it off that way for now and told her I'd think about it. I think I'm going to need to talk to my HR buddy sooner than later.

rafe
10-23-2014, 17:30
Very interesting topic. I am in the exact position as the OP; however at 53yo I'm much farther along my career path. I plan on giving my notice at the beginning of January effective at the end of February. This gives nearly two months notice for my employer to begin the recruitment process to find my replacement. After 30 years in software engineering and engineering management, I'm ready to hang up the keyboard and figure out some new direction for the remainder of my life. Consequently, my leaving will be more of a sabbatical/retirement from software engineering than a resignation to work for another company in the same industry. I've thought about approaching the company about a formal sabbatical or leave of absence but it's not a company that I would really want to come back and work for again so I've dismissed that idea. I'm definitely not going to tell them about my plans to do a thru-hike of the AT.

Be careful out there. There's a lot of age discrimination in the SW engineering field. Employers want young, inexpensive bodies. I speak from firsthand experience. I've to quite a few networking sessions for unemployed folks and I can tell you that 50+ (age) software engineers are very well represented. I wish it weren't so.

Coffee
10-23-2014, 18:24
The plot thickens. I just had my 1x1 with my boss. She said they had hired someone earlier in the year, a peer of mine, with the intention of having him become her successor. Both she and her boss are now thinking that this other person won't be a good fit as her successor but now both of them are thinking I would be a good fit. She wanted to know what I thought about becoming her successor and starting to be groomed for that role. I had previously told her that level was too far removed from actual work and too much just dealing with garbage and I didn't want to be her successor. I was able to play it off that way for now and told her I'd think about it. I think I'm going to need to talk to my HR buddy sooner than later.

If you don't want to get promoted due to not liking the work, then I think the best approach is to just say so. However, if you could see yourself being promoted, you could possibly play this by requesting a leave of absence followed by moving into the new role. They would have to replace your current function anyway and maybe your current boss would be willing to stick around until your thru hike is over. Sounds to me like you have a great deal of goodwill within your company so this could very well work. However, if you really don't want to be promoted, it is probably best to just level with them and say so. I would say that it is almost never worthwhile to accept a job just for a title or more money.

jred321
10-23-2014, 22:02
Be careful out there. There's a lot of age discrimination in the SW engineering field. Employers want young, inexpensive bodies. I speak from firsthand experience. I've to quite a few networking sessions for unemployed folks and I can tell you that 50+ (age) software engineers are very well represented. I wish it weren't so.
I know at my company most of our actual developer positions are in India. I would imagine most large companies operate similarly - the positions that are simply take problem XYZ and convert it into code are easy to send to India and have done at 1/3 the price. The positions kept in house are the ones that require more knowledge of the company and infrastructure - tech leads, architects, business facing functions, etc.... I would imagine most large companies are operating similarly, which I would imagine limits the number of openings for true software engineers and makes competition very tough, especially in a limited geographic region. In addition, it probably leaves a disproportionate number of software engineer types of positions open to smaller and startup companies who are looking for cheap resources because they don't have the capital and/or really want a tech lead at the price of a developer.

That said, we have had both Cognos developer positions and a BA/QA lead position open for ~9 months in my department. If you want to move to Hartford or St Paul and think you'd be a good fit for one of those positions let me know :)


I would say that it is almost never worthwhile to accept a job just for a title or more money.

As I was thinking about it more tonight, that's the exact thought going through my head. I would really be taking the job for the title/money and I don't want to go that route. It would just delay the inevitable and make me suffer for that much longer.

jred321
12-15-2014, 17:05
I finally got around to talking to the HR person I know. He basically said 1 month is more than enough time. The biggest tip he gave me had to do with PTO. We cash out any unused PTO. PTO is accrued in our system on a monthly basis on the first of each month. The takeaway from that? Set your last day at the company to be the first of the month, not the last day. One more day gives you a few hundred extra dollars in PTO cashout.

Johnny Thunder
12-18-2014, 01:12
yeah. like you've found out. 1 month is more than enough time. 2 weeks is fine. no one is going to trash you for that. and waiting until after bonuses are announced is standard practice among most retirees and folks looking for a job. i know this because i worked in it recruiting for the 5 years preceding my hike and my phone would go banana's in february. all of a sudden everyone knows a guy i helped find a job and they're all looking to make a move.

in that 5 years i can't remember a single person getting stuck with a bad deal because their new job wants them in 2 weeks and their old job thought that wasn't enough time for a transition. people change jobs. people quit jobs. if a company can't figure out how to make a manageable transition in 10 working days they have bigger problems than you leaving. like you said, you've already moved up into your old boss's job in what was at the time probably a quick fix to their departure or promotion. i'm telling you, i hired help desk guys through lead developers and up to the CTO level at a hospital (a notoriously slow business to hire for) and no one balked at giving their current jobs 2 weeks if that's what their next employer wanted....and like i said, no one (that i can remember) got burned for that.

but it sounds like you've got your dates figured out. it feels great, doesn't it? i'm just going to leave this here because i'm sure it's a question that a lot of hikers will be working with over the next few months.

Boots and Backpacks
12-18-2014, 13:15
I told my employer on 12/1 that my last day was going to be 12/26. That's plenty of time for them to find a replacement, train them, and to start transferring the work load. Now, it's their choice from that point on. A 2 week notice is considered professional, and is about what people give. Anything over that is just being generous, and is optional. I gave more notice in hopes of getting people on my good side so I can get rehired when we return. Looks good so for since my employer is NOT going to hire a replacement for my position.

jred321
12-18-2014, 14:24
That's plenty of time for them to find a replacement, train them, and to start transferring the work load.

That is very job-dependent. I had an individual contributor position on my team open for 7 months and only got 1 resume worthy of an interview. I eventually gave up and changed my approach to filling the position. If there is someone waiting in the wings then sure a month is enough time to get them up to speed. The whole finding someone part can take a while, especially if they are external (remember, they would have to give notice at their job).

Boots and Backpacks
12-18-2014, 14:44
That is very job-dependent. I had an individual contributor position on my team open for 7 months and only got 1 resume worthy of an interview. I eventually gave up and changed my approach to filling the position. If there is someone waiting in the wings then sure a month is enough time to get them up to speed. The whole finding someone part can take a while, especially if they are external (remember, they would have to give notice at their job).

You're right. A lot goes into replacing someone, and some positions are harder to file than others. I'm a senior purchasing manager, at least for the next week I am. Purchasing positions are easy to fill these days, but not finding someone to take over my position. Purchasing is the easy part. Finding someone with experience in manufacturing, MRP, DRP, cost analysis, and so is harder. Generally, positions that aren't as advanced tend to fill quicker. Higher level jobs usually take longer, but there are also fewer of those to fill.

jred321
02-05-2015, 13:48
Found out what my promotion, raise and bonus are today. They're all good and I have no complaints but they're not enough to sway me. I feel a little bad because my boss is talking about positioning me for the next promotion, how I'm well positioned in terms of salary in relation to mid point to get more raises, what my bonus should do in the coming years as a result of promotions, etc.... It will be a little less than a month before I tell her my plan but I am now at the point where there aren't really any questions left and I don't really "need" anything else from my company.

I guess the only wildcard at this point would be a counter offer.

MrGonzalo
02-06-2015, 17:42
Found out what my promotion, raise and bonus are today. They're all good and I have no complaints but they're not enough to sway me. I feel a little bad because my boss is talking about positioning me for the next promotion, how I'm well positioned in terms of salary in relation to mid point to get more raises, what my bonus should do in the coming years as a result of promotions, etc.... It will be a little less than a month before I tell her my plan but I am now at the point where there aren't really any questions left and I don't really "need" anything else from my company.

I guess the only wildcard at this point would be a counter offer.


From what I've read, it seems that the company values you. If they are betting on your advancement, play your cards. How about asking for an (unpaid) leave of absence? Worst case scenario, you will be in the same place where you currently are. This has worked for me before (large corporate setting).

jred321
02-06-2015, 17:45
The only thing I don't like about the leave of absence approach is that there is an implication that I'm coming back. If I do a leave of absence, then decide not to come back, it's 5-6 months that they've been sitting around waiting when they could have been out recruiting. That could leave a bad taste in their mouth and I want to try not to burn any bridges.

Violent Green
02-06-2015, 22:34
My two cents - Obviously they think highly of you and sounds like you have a good boss. Everyone deserves a fair deal. You've got your bonuses & stock now, yes? Give them a longer notice than just two weeks if you can. You never know where life may take you or them. Maybe 10 years from now your small business bites the dust and you need to ask for a favor from someone.

Ryan

Violent Green
02-06-2015, 22:35
P.S. - Good luck on your thru!

Ryan

jawnzee
02-06-2015, 23:40
The only thing I don't like about the leave of absence approach is that there is an implication that I'm coming back. If I do a leave of absence, then decide not to come back, it's 5-6 months that they've been sitting around waiting when they could have been out recruiting. That could leave a bad taste in their mouth and I want to try not to burn any bridges.
at my company they do not guarantee your job when you return from an extended leave of absence. sort of goes both ways.

2015 Lady Thru-Hiker
02-07-2015, 00:38
The only thing I don't like about the leave of absence approach is that there is an implication that I'm coming back. If I do a leave of absence, then decide not to come back, it's 5-6 months that they've been sitting around waiting when they could have been out recruiting. That could leave a bad taste in their mouth and I want to try not to burn any bridges.

I opted not to do a LOA for that reason. Didn't want to tie any hands (or FTEs). If they value me as much as they say they do they find something when I get back if
i chose to go back.

RFS2001
02-07-2015, 10:20
In my experience, most large companies do not look highly upon extended LOAs, unless they are for medical reasons (and even then, they're often given begrudgingly).

In addition, if a company learns it can operate leaner and with little no penalty without an employee, it's not likely to keep/rehire that employee.

Del Q
02-07-2015, 16:32
Get your bonus - it is earned and you deserve it.

4 weeks notice is more than enough, and is the right thing to do if they need or want you there for the transition.

They might also say thanks, no 2-4 weeks needed, have a nice hike.

jred321
02-07-2015, 18:19
My two cents - Obviously they think highly of you and sounds like you have a good boss. Everyone deserves a fair deal. You've got your bonuses & stock now, yes? Give them a longer notice than just two weeks if you can. You never know where life may take you or them. Maybe 10 years from now your small business bites the dust and you need to ask for a favor from someone.

Ryan
Planning to give a month's notice, maybe even a little more.

P.S. - Good luck on your thru!

Ryan
Thanks!

at my company they do not guarantee your job when you return from an extended leave of absence. sort of goes both ways.
How is that different than quitting? Why do they bother to call it a leave of absence?

MuddyWaters
02-07-2015, 18:33
Your employers innability to backfill your position, if you are quitting, is not your problem.

If they value your presence, they will pay you enough so that you dont leave.

If you are taking a leave of abscence and planning to return, then you have an understandable vested interest.

Traveler
02-08-2015, 10:17
How is that different than quitting? Why do they bother to call it a leave of absence?

It really depends on the position level and complexity. Some jobs only require the courtesy of a 2- week notice, which the company decides when you exit during that period of time. For professional positions or critical jobs like project manager that may have multiple project lines working and complex timelines, a far longer notice is typically needed. Those types of situations are usually known by the people that occupy the positions to begin with.

The LOA is a means for the company to avoid a re-hiring process should the employee return. This allows benefits and other remuneration to pick up where they left off without requiring a wait period, probationary issues, required training, and other issues. No company will allow a critical position to go unfilled, which is why most organizations cannot guarantee the same job on return. However, a critical position employee on a LOA allows the company to assess the replacement employee under a known time table and provides some options if the new person isn't working out.

jred321
02-10-2015, 08:47
The LOA is a means for the company to avoid a re-hiring process should the employee return. This allows benefits and other remuneration to pick up where they left off without requiring a wait period, probationary issues, required training, and other issues. No company will allow a critical position to go unfilled, which is why most organizations cannot guarantee the same job on return. However, a critical position employee on a LOA allows the company to assess the replacement employee under a known time table and provides some options if the new person isn't working out.
That makes sense