Frozen boots and clothes

[squeezebox]

I've read some trail journal entries about frozen boots and clothes. I can see not wanting to get your bag wet or muddy. But you're between a rock and a hard place, something needs to be done to prevent a possibly dangerous situation.
My thoughts !! Put your boots in a plastic grocery bag , or 2, that should contain the mud. They don't have to be in your bag all night just about an hour or so before you get up.
Clothes- put them in a gallon zipp lock that you've sliced a few small slits in for ventilation. Should keep the wet from getting on your bag but also some ventilation for evaporation. 2- put clothes on your sleep pad, cover with your pack cover should stay warm enough and might even dry out some.
Your thoughts and experiences ??

[garlic08]

The plastic garbage bag, or even a grocery bag, is a good idea. The trick I use is to put them outside my bag and under my knees. That's usually just enough heat to keep them thawed. If you leave the neck of the bag open (like your slits idea), they might even dry out a bit.

Large items of clothing I put under my sleeping pad. Again, that's enough sometimes to dry them out at least partially. Small clothing like socks, hat, and gloves I usually wear to bed wet and dry them out completely with body heat. To make this work, you need ventilation. And it won't work if relative humidity is excessive.

[Another Kevin]

I use two pads in the winter - a summer-thickness Thermarest and a blue foam. Wet clothing goes between them. That's enough warmth to keep the clothes from freezing, with no risk of wetting my sleeping bag from them. If they're dry, it's even a little extra insulation. In winter, you really need two pads, anyway, unless you can find foam thick enough to keep you warm. An inflatable pad has to have a backup.

As far as boots go, I find that in conditions where I'm hiking in trail runners, either they won't freeze just being in my tent (it's at least ten degrees warmer inside than outside), or they'll freeze lightly enough that my feet will thaw them while I'm making my morning coffee. Once I'm on snowshoes or crampons, I've switched to pac boots. These have felt inner boots, and you can do the between-the-pads trick with the inner boots, or even wear them to bed if they've stayed dry. (Use sock liners and a vapor barrier to keep them that way!)

Disclaimer: I'm a clueless weekender. I do only short trips, and I live Up North. Long-distance travel in a milder winter may have a different answer.

[Bronk]

Given the choice of putting on cold wet clothing in the morning or going to sleep with it on and letting it dry out over night I will go to bed with wet clothing on. Wet boots go in a bag inside the sleeping bag, and so does the water filter.

[Tipi Walter]

Given the choice of putting on cold wet clothing in the morning or going to sleep with it on and letting it dry out over night I will go to bed with wet clothing on. Wet boots go in a bag inside the sleeping bag, and so does the water filter.

Maybe in Florida this system works but it's not a technique I'd ever use in the winter. A good down bag is not designed to dry clothing and in fact does not work efficiently when trying to vent wet clothing. Another Kevin has a better idea with the two-pad system---otherwise when push comes to shove and it's -10F like it was last January for the polar vortex you will not want anything in the bag with you that isn't bone dry.

So, leave the wet socks and shorts and t-shirt and gloves etc OUT of the bag and be manly and put these back on in the morning for shove off. If really bad you can slap on a good rain jacket over your wet baselayer and start moving.

Plus, in the winter no one allows their dry layers to get wet---ever. This means you keep dry your sleeping socks, a second pair of gloves, your merino etc leggings, your torso midlayers and fleece hats/balaclavas and of course all of your down items---down pants, down parka/jacket, down bag. A down bag needs to stay as dry as possible for warmth thru the night---wet clothing is a big compromise in the loft/dryness component.

As far as frozen boots, well, it's often inevitable so just spread out the laces beforehand (really loosen them up) and in the morning your feet will slide in and then start moving. "Real" winter boots that do not freeze when wet like Baffin or Sorels or plastic mountaineering boots are never used where I backpack in the Southeast, so we suffer with frozen footwear on occasion.

[MuddyWaters]

Put clothes under sleeping pad . they will be wet but not frozen in shoulder season.. My shoes go under the head of mey pad to incline it. They don't freeze there either.

[Bronk]

Maybe in Florida this system works but it's not a technique I'd ever use in the winter. A good down bag is not designed to dry clothing and in fact does not work efficiently when trying to vent wet clothing. Another Kevin has a better idea with the two-pad system---otherwise when push comes to shove and it's -10F like it was last January for the polar vortex you will not want anything in the bag with you that isn't bone dry.

So, leave the wet socks and shorts and t-shirt and gloves etc OUT of the bag and be manly and put these back on in the morning for shove off. If really bad you can slap on a good rain jacket over your wet baselayer and start moving.

Plus, in the winter no one allows their dry layers to get wet---ever. This means you keep dry your sleeping socks, a second pair of gloves, your merino etc leggings, your torso midlayers and fleece hats/balaclavas and of course all of your down items---down pants, down parka/jacket, down bag. A down bag needs to stay as dry as possible for warmth thru the night---wet clothing is a big compromise in the loft/dryness component.

As far as frozen boots, well, it's often inevitable so just spread out the laces beforehand (really loosen them up) and in the morning your feet will slide in and then start moving. "Real" winter boots that do not freeze when wet like Baffin or Sorels or plastic mountaineering boots are never used where I backpack in the Southeast, so we suffer with frozen footwear on occasion.I camped in 5 degree weather last January and this is the system I used. I don't have a down bag for the simple reason that it becomes useless when wet...when I'm camping, I assume everything will get wet. I do tend to sleep warmer than most people judging by comments I see on here of people complaining about being cold. I have a 30 degree bag, and I wasn't cold in it.

[LittleRock]

Some advice:

1) Wear synthetic materials like nylon or polyester while hiking. Warmer materials like cotton or wool take forever to dry. If you get cold while hiking, either put on more layers or hike faster/take fewer breaks.

2) Keep overnight clothes in zip-lock bags and don't take them out while hiking. Also, keep your sleeping bag inside your pack, don't attach it to the outside where it's more likely to get wet.

3) The fastest way to dry out wet socks/boots is to hike in them. Don't put them in your sleeping bag, they'll just get the inside of your sleeping bag wet. They will feel extremely cold at first, but they warm up surprisingly quickly once you get moving.

4) If you get cold at night, you can make a "hot water bottle" by boiling water, pouring it into a plastic water bottle (make sure it doesn't leak!), and putting it in your sleeping bag.

[ChefATLTCT]

Everything littlerock said

I know its extra weight but I always carry separate sleeping clothes, my current REI first layer is only 14 0z shirt and pant
plus on cold nights ill leave my boots inside the tent and that at least keeps them from freezing, But on my hike it only dropped below 30 a few times. Coldest night was at Betty Creek gap 15 below in March

[ChefATLTCT]

correction not 15 below 15 degrees

[Tipi Walter]

I don't have a down bag for the simple reason that it becomes useless when wet...when I'm camping, I assume everything will get wet.

Not to get picky but these statements caught my eye. Of course, anything goose down is useless when wet---especially a down bag---BUT IT NEVER GETS WET, period. (Not talking about the newfangled chemically coated down---nonstarter for me and unneeded---the usual stuff works perfectly as is).

You're quote, "When I'm camping, I assume everything will get wet" is a mind-blower for sure. On the other hand I insist nothing will get wet except those items I want to get wet. Like I said, there's no motel or hostel or laundry mat or a set of car keys when everything is wet, so the only option is to keep stuff dry.

AT thruhikers can walk in the rain all day and get everything wet cuz they're headed straight into town and the dryers, so they have an out. I never assume my stuff will get wet, no matter what, unless I fall into a river or I lose my shelter to a falling tree.

Having everything wet is a possible safe option in July with 90F nights, a terrible plan for March in a 3 day 35F rain.

Bronk---pulling 5F with a 30F bag is remarkable, even with an Exped downmat underneath (don't know what you used). But of course I'm 64 so I see myself needing more and more Geese to keep me happy i.e. get older get colder. (I pulled a 24 day trip last January during the Polar Rectum and stayed in one spot for 3 days but it never got above 0F and so I stayed put and "made my stand". I even zipped up my -15F WM bag for a few nights. On Day 4 I had to pull a 0 degree bare foot creek crossing and it was hellish. Point is---I need overkill Geese to survive).

Of course, I don't know the particulars of your 5F trip---was it one night? 14 days? 21 days? But anything can be endured for one night, even in the winter. A wool blanket and a Zrest. A duffel bag over one shoulder and an Army feather bag. A stand-alone walmart blue foam pad. Even emerging on Day 2 at 10F with everything wet. Tough but livable.

Now stretch that 5 degree trip to 15 days and I'd be interested to see what happens.

[rafe]

I camped in 5 degree weather last January and this is the system I used. I don't have a down bag for the simple reason that it becomes useless when wet...when I'm camping, I assume everything will get wet. I do tend to sleep warmer than most people judging by comments I see on here of people complaining about being cold. I have a 30 degree bag, and I wasn't cold in it.

I'm with Tipi -- really surprised at this notion, and it's the opposite of my approach. My down bag is my last defense against hypothermia, and it's never allowed to get wet. The good news is, that's not at all difficult to achieve. The bag is the first item stuffed into the pack in the morning, and the last item out of the pack in the evening. Same goes for essential stay-warm gear: a base layer, hat and light gloves that are never allowed to get wet, and never worn while hiking.

[garlic08]

I had that "wet down" phobia, and used a synthetic bag for many years. Until I realized I'd been hiking and skiing in the northern Cascades and Olympic rain forest for quite a few years, in many days of rain or snow, and my synthetic bag never got wet. I simply didn't let it happen. When I realized I had the skills to keep a bag dry, I finally got a down bag and kicked myself for waiting so long to do it.

And it's never gotten wet. It'll get damp after four days and nights of rain and 100% humidity--everything does--but it's still survivable. I'm one of those wimpy thru hikers who usually hits a town every hundred miles or so, two hundred at the most, so mechanical heat is usually in the near future.

[Another Kevin]

You're quote, "When I'm camping, I assume everything will get wet" is a mind-blower for sure. On the other hand I insist nothing will get wet except those items I want to get wet. Like I said, there's no motel or hostel or laundry mat or a set of car keys when everything is wet, so the only option is to keep stuff dry.

AT thruhikers can walk in the rain all day and get everything wet cuz they're headed straight into town and the dryers, so they have an out. I never assume my stuff will get wet, no matter what, unless I fall into a river or I lose my shelter to a falling tree.

I assume that everything I wear while on the move will get wet. Either I'll have my rainsuit off and it'll get wet from the outside, or I'll put my rainsuit on and it'll get wet from the inside. The rainsuit is for wind protection, and to keep cascading rainwater from carrying all my heat away, not to keep me dry! I never, ever hike in winter in my only set of dry clothes. And the clothes I wear on the move are chosen so that if I'm wet, at least I'm warm and wet. Oh yeah, and my tent rainfly and footprint will get wet. That's what they're for. The sleeping bag? Must not get wet. The fleeces, socks, balaclava, glove liners that I sleep in - or indeed anything else in the sleeping bag? Must not get wet. Wet things are not allowed in the sleeping bag.

I use a pack liner AND have a drysack for my sleeping clothes, so I have a decent chance of having dry stuff even if I fall in a river. If falling in a river is more than a remote contingency, I'll lay a fire all ready to light before I cross, so that if I do get wet I can retreat to the near bank and have a fire lit immediately. (Unless I come upon one that another hiker has laid against the same possibility.)

[garlic08]

I assume that everything I wear while on the move will get wet....

What do you know? You're just a clueless weekender:). Just kidding, I'm with you on that paragraph. I use pretty cheap, non-breathable rain gear, with the knowledge that "warm and wet" is OK as long as you have plenty of dry insulation in the pack. There are exceptions, of course, like heavy wet snow combined with wind, when it's just really hard to stay warm when moving without extra insulation. You have to know when to stop and take shelter, and not exceed the limits of what you're wearing.


...Wet things are not allowed in the sleeping bag.

Everyone has said this except me. In certain conditions, like most of the time where I live in the Rockies, with very low relative humidity and good ventilation, and with warm sun at least part of nearly every day for airing out the bag, I can dry off small items of clothing by sleeping with them. Sometimes a warm, dry pair of socks or gloves in the morning is about the nicest thing imaginable.

You need to understand psychrometrics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrometrics), though (I've been wanting to use that word for years). I always wonder when I see a clothesline in a campsite on a cool, damp evening. How is that going to work in near saturated conditions?

[Another Kevin]

What do you know? You're just a clueless weekender:). Just kidding, I'm with you on that paragraph. I use pretty cheap, non-breathable rain gear, with the knowledge that "warm and wet" is OK as long as you have plenty of dry insulation in the pack. There are exceptions, of course, like heavy wet snow combined with wind, when it's just really hard to stay warm when moving without extra insulation. You have to know when to stop and take shelter, and not exceed the limits of what you're wearing.



Everyone has said this except me. In certain conditions, like most of the time where I live in the Rockies, with very low relative humidity and good ventilation, and with warm sun at least part of nearly every day for airing out the bag, I can dry off small items of clothing by sleeping with them. Sometimes a warm, dry pair of socks or gloves in the morning is about the nicest thing imaginable.

You need to understand psychrometrics (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychrometrics), though (I've been wanting to use that word for years). I always wonder when I see a clothesline in a campsite on a cool, damp evening. How is that going to work in near saturated conditions?
Different conditions! I'm an Eastern hiker: what is this 'low relative humidity' of which you speak? [emoji299] [emoji298] [emoji300]

[Tipi Walter]

I had that "wet down" phobia, and used a synthetic bag for many years. Until I realized I'd been hiking and skiing in the northern Cascades and Olympic rain forest for quite a few years, in many days of rain or snow, and my synthetic bag never got wet. I simply didn't let it happen. When I realized I had the skills to keep a bag dry, I finally got a down bag and kicked myself for waiting so long to do it.

And it's never gotten wet. It'll get damp after four days and nights of rain and 100% humidity--everything does--but it's still survivable. I'm one of those wimpy thru hikers who usually hits a town every hundred miles or so, two hundred at the most, so mechanical heat is usually in the near future.

It's amazing how lofted and puffy my WM down bag is at home---a marvel of warmth engineering. Why? Because it's perfectly bone dry. Six days into a winter trip and the same bag is a percentage smaller and thinner than at home due to air humidity, as you say, and the inevitable in-tent condensation. THEREFORE it's always my morning routine in the winter to hang my bag outside for an hour while making morning tea and breakfast, if conditions allow. This simple one hour act thoroughly dries the microfiber shell of my beloved WM Puma bag. It works even when the temps are 0F or below.


I'm with Tipi -- really surprised at this notion, and it's the opposite of my approach. My down bag is my last defense against hypothermia, and it's never allowed to get wet. The good news is, that's not at all difficult to achieve. The bag is the first item stuffed into the pack in the morning, and the last item out of the pack in the evening. Same goes for essential stay-warm gear: a base layer, hat and light gloves that are never allowed to get wet, and never worn while hiking.

"Never worn while hiking" is a truism especially in a cold 35F rainstorm. I consider my thermal baselayers and midlayers to be necessary for survival and these never get wet. I use Icebreaker zip neck merino tops and merino leggings for my warmth layers in camp (consider them pajamas) and these are frequently worn when hiking when it is cold. But never in a cold rain. Then again I'm comfy hiking in shorts during the winter and in snow so my leggings never get wet.

Then again, when it's 10F and snowing nothing really gets wet as the snow blows off my merino tops and leggings and only the boots/socks may get moist. In a pinch I'll wear my Arcteryx rain jacket over the merino but then Sweat Management MUST be practiced, otherwise you end up with wet sweaty midlayers. NOT GOOD.

[steve0423]

I did an AT thru in 2013 with a mid-February start. I saw snow at least once a week for the first 7 weeks ranging from an inch to six foot drifts and single digit temps with neg wind chills. There was very little margin for error and a few folks who got outside that margin paid dearly. (mostly frost bite that blackened toes, fingertips, noses, etc). I carried a down bag and designated dry /sleep cloths. I kept these dry at all cost and often at the end of a day of trudging through the snow, it was necessary to change cloths and get in my bag for an hour to bring the temp back up. I was very careful to do what I could to not get soaked, but often had a damp layer (sweat) by the end of the day. I could usually dry this by putting on a dry layer over the damp and getting in my bag for the “warm up hour”. On a few occasions my boots went in a plastic sack and into the bottom of my sleeping bag, (on really cold nights things got crowded with boots, water bottles, cell phone, batteries etc. in there), but most often I just loosened the laces up and put them on frozen last thing in the morning and thawed them over the first couple miles. It sucks, but it’s doable. Overall… common sense is paramount, your bag is survival gear, and it’s amazing what you can dry with your body heat.