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hikernutcasey
10-08-2014, 15:44
So I'm trying to figure out how to do this in the next year or two. I live in NC so getting there and then figuring out where I'm going to sleep each night is proving difficult to say the least. I have figured out that I can fly into Boston and ride the Concord Coach bus to Lincoln, NH. If I start at Franconia Notch and go to Gorham (75 miles) I can catch the bus back to Boston so that solves the transportation issue.

If I do this section what are my realistic chances of avoiding the huts? I would be open to staying in a hut for 1 night but no more. I'm trying to do this on a budget and it's already getting expensive. Can someone post a realistic itinerary for say 7 full days of hiking starting at Franconia and ending in Gorham? I figure 2 full days of travel and 7 full days on the trail would put me at 9 days total. I am in good shape and usually do 16 - 18 mile days so I'm thinking I can average around 10 up there.

Suggestions?

rafe
10-08-2014, 16:00
There was a recent thread about this. Your biggest challenges in avoiding the huts are over the Franconia Ridge and on the Presidential traverse. Aside from those two areas there are the usual mix and spacing of campsites, shelters and tent platforms with no charge or minimal charge (if there's a resident caretaker.)

As for the Prezzies, there are shelters along the way but they are well off the trail and down the mountain from the AT. Not insurmountable, but will add some miles and some vertical to your trip. Guyot shelter and campsite is in that category as well.

Stealth camping is pretty tricky anywhere near the high ridges, and often in-between (on ascents and descents.) It's quite rare in the AT in the Whites to be walking along plain old lowland hardwood forest. More often than not, you're either on a ridge, climbing to a ridge, or descending from a ridge. The "flat" stretches (or relatively flat stretches) are above treeline. The terrain along the climbs and descents is typically unsuitable for stealth camping.

kofritz
10-08-2014, 16:48
advisable to trim the mileage expectations.

rafe
10-08-2014, 17:06
advisable to trim the mileage expectations.

OP says he's used to doing 16-18 mpd, expects 10 in the Whites. Sounds reasonable to me.

rickb
10-08-2014, 17:30
So I'm trying to figure out how to do this in the next year or two. I live in NC so getting there and then figuring out where I'm going to sleep each night is proving difficult to say the least.
Suggestions?


What have you come up with so far?

DavidNH
10-08-2014, 17:50
10 miles per day is very doable in the whites (I am assuming you are in descent shape). As for avoiding the huts.. that will not be easy. Since you plan to go from Franconia Notch to Gorham you might do something like this:

Two buses per day out of Logan:
1) 7:15 am arrive Lincoln around 11:15 am or 2) 5:40 pm out of Logan arrive Lincoln 9:20 pm. Either way.. you'll be so tired I'd strongly suggest first night at a hotel in Lincoln.

2) night 2 after good night's sleep.. take taxi or get shuttled into Franconia Notch and hike as far as Liberty Spring Campsite (tenting). That's a stiff climb and you will be .3 mile from the ridge.


3) From liberty spring campsite hike the ridge and since you want to avoid hut stays.. hike all the way to Garfield Ridge campsite (tenting). This is a long hard day. You go over little haystack, Lincoln, Lafayette, Garfield and several bumps in between. Lincoln and Lafayette are both above treeline.



4) From Garfield Ridge Campsite hike to Galhead hut, then very steep up to South Twin. From here hike to just before Mt Guyot.. and take bondcliff trail to Guyot Campsite. While here you can make quick over and back (only a mile or so) to Bondcliff where you have some of the White Mountains most spectacular views. If weather is clear it's a must do.

5) From Guyot campsite hike back to AT and then over Mt Guot and over to Zealand Falls Hut. From here is is easy mostly flat hiking over to Ethan Pond Camp Site. Tenting.

6) From Ethan Pond Campsite hike out to Route 302. Cross route 302 up Webster Cliffs over Mt Webster and Mount Jackson to Mizpah Hut. Here you can camp nearby the hut Neuman camp site with designated platforms.

7) From here you hike over the southern Presidentials. It's the better part of the day to get to Lakes of the Clouds hut. If weather is awful they MIGHT let you stay in the basement (known as the dungeon) for a few bucks but this is a privilege not a right.

I honestly don't see how you avoid a hut stay here. You are not allowed in summer to camp above treeline (hut is at 5000 feet el) and going down the terrain is very steep.

8) From Lakes of the Clouds Hut.. you hike to top of Mount Washington (where you could take the autoroad down via van) then past jefferson and Adams (don't have to summit Adams) to Madison Hut, and then down the ridge to AMC Pinkham Notch Camp. Here it is hotel like lodging with awesom AMC food. There is one bus a day from Pinkham Notch Camp to Boston. I believe it leaves early morning.

So in best of circumstances.. You need hut nights at Lakes and spring for lodging at Pinkham. All the tent sights have caretakers and there will be something like a 8 or 10$ per site per night fee.

Unless you are a very exceptionally strong hiker (like the best of the AT thru hikers).. do NOT expect or plan on greater daily mileage than what I have laid out Here. Even this is a bit much for average to below average hikers.

Keep in mind... if weather is bad.. it will probably slow you down and may force alterations on you itinerary. So you need to be flexible.

rafe
10-08-2014, 19:36
David -- your day 3 is shorter than day 8 by quite a bit, and you rightly allow as how day 3 is a tough one. Day 3 (over Franconia) is only about 8 miles, day 8 (Lakes to Pinkham) is 14 or so. You could break up day 8 by staying at the Perch (instead of Madison Hut.) Staying at The Perch will cost you a half-hour's walk each way. About the same (in terms of "detour time") as staying at Guyot.

Alternatively you can walk from Lakes past Madison and stay at Osgood campsite -- exactly ten miles. Then breeze into Pinkham the next morning.

The hardest part of day 3 will be the saddle between Lafayette summit and Garfield summit -- a long way down and back up. Your day 8 doesn't stop being hard until you get well below Madison summit.

hikernutcasey
10-08-2014, 20:18
Thanks for the info. I knew it would be hard to avoid the huts all together. It's hard for me to fathom not being able to hike more than 10 miles a day but I guess I need to temper my expectations. It's hard to not want to try and squeeze as many miles in as possible when you are making such a long journey just to get there in the first place.

This helps though just trying to get a feel for what someone who knows the terrain would do and to get an idea where all the campsites are.

HighLiner
10-08-2014, 21:16
I used a Hammock and avoided all fees with a little strategic stealthing. The AMC surely seems to go out of their way to make AT hikers lives difficult in the Whites. The above posts are very good. Best point is 10 mile days, at least that's my opinion as I started a section hike with new legs at Kinsman Notch.

rickb
10-09-2014, 04:37
Keep in mind that the the hiking restrictions are put in place by the NFS, not the AMC.

Most are also there for good reason.

rickb
10-09-2014, 04:41
Thanks for the info. I knew it would be hard to avoid the huts all together. It's hard for me to fathom not being able to hike more than 10 miles a day but I guess I need to temper my expectations. It's hard to not want to try and squeeze as many miles in as possible when you are making such a long journey just to get there in the first place.

This helps though just trying to get a feel for what someone who knows the terrain would do and to get an idea where all the campsites are.

It might be "hard" to avoid staying overnight at a hut, but it very doable.

In my opinion, the only really tricky stretch is between Nauman Tentsite, and the Osgood campsite (or a legal stealth site before Pinkham notch) You would be hard pressed to do that in a day.

The solution is rather simple. You stay flexible enough on your first few days out so that you end up at camping at Nauman Tentsite. The next day you head north and make a quick stop at Lakes of the Clouds hut then keep walking over Mount Washington until you reach the side trail to the Perch.

The Perch is a shelter (with a caretaker and small fee) down a blue blaze, but It's a great blue blaze-- mostly above tree line. Even though the map will show some elevation loss, they are all good miles. Any mile above tree line in good weather is a good mile! Is it a long day? Sure, and it would be even longer in bad weather. Is is reasonable for someone who routinely hikes longish days? I think so-- ask what other think or check out the journals.

If you stay flexible, and remember Nauman and the Perch, my guess is that you will be just fine with everything else with the normal one day at a time approach to planning the exact details.

The only other thing I would suggest is adjusting your daily routine so that you hit the trail early each day.

For all the crowds, if you start hiking right as the sun come up you will have literally hours of the most beautiful sections above treeline virtually all to yourself. Why? Because the AMC holds its hut guests hostage with their breakfast schedule.

Starting early also increases your chances of finding plenty of space (and thereby avoiding a bit of additional hassle) at busy caretaker sites like the Perch or Guyot.

That said, a reservation at Lakes of the Clouds could be a nice luxury. If you do want to do one hut that is DEFINITELY the one to chose. No question.

Finally, keep in mind that all of our suggestions are colored by our past experience-- with weather, body and soul when we hiked these sections. So take some of the specific advise WRT itineraries as more food for thought, than as a roadmap of perfect wisdom.

peakbagger
10-09-2014, 07:53
Some folks stop at Mitzpah Hut (Nauman Tentsite) and fill up on water, then go up and over Pierce, Soon after the Crawford Junction, there are some flat spots for tenting to the right but no water. In the AM as you head towards Eisenhower there is a water source in the scrub prior to starting the major ascent to Eisenhower. Then head north and go over Washington. Take a break on Washington summit, then hike over to Jewell trail and hike done about 1 mile. There usually is water running down through the rocks and crossing the trail before you hit treeline. In about 10 minutes you will reach a cleared spot with room for a couple of tents and usually a fire ring. There are numerous spots for small tents in the woods to the left. Be careful as its also a popular spot for hikers to take a dump. Next day make the run over to Madison. There is one flat campspot that will fit two very small tents or one two man immediately below the treeline to the left on Osgood or just keep going until you get into the hardwoods.

DavidNH
10-09-2014, 09:17
rafe... I had forgotten about Osgood campsite.

Isn't the Perch a good stiff descent down from the ridge (and back up next morning)? I've never actually stayed at the perch and I don't recall of the top of my head it's exact location other than it is down hill from Madison and Adams and a fair ways below treeline.

peakbagger
10-09-2014, 09:21
Most any legal option along the ridge north of Nauman is usually a 1000 foot elevation loss and about 1 mile.

rafe
10-09-2014, 10:19
David -- my last stay at the Perch was two or three summers ago, a simple overnight over Jefferson, up and back from Rte. 2. I wasn't following the AT specifically so I'm not certain of the approach one would take from the AT. The Perch was about an hours' walk from Jefferson. From there I walked downhill to Rte. 2. Typical -- my hikes in the Whites are peripheral to the AT, they might meet or follow it for a while, but start and end with blue blazes. If there's camping it's usually on blue trails. Stealthing is much easier off the AT, down low. I've mostly been absent from the Presidential range these last few years.

What I'd like to do some time is a complete traverse in one day, from Mizpah to Madison... reserve a night in each one... climb Webster Cliffs to Mizpah the day before, descend off Madison the morning after. Since it's framed by two hut stays, you could carry a very light pack. No stay at Lakes hut, but you'd presumably hit it mid-day or hopefully late morning.

It's 12 miles by the book. I think I could pull it off, on a fair-weather day in summer, with an early start. Anyone who thinks, "12 miles, how hard can that be?" just hasn't been there. (Not insinuating that anyone on this thread has done that...) If nothing else, the sheer majesty of the views (on a good day) will slow you down.

hikernutcasey
10-13-2014, 11:18
What have you come up with so far?Okay, so after studying what everyone advised and looking at my AT guide here is what I've come up with. Please feel free to make suggestions:

Day 1 - Take late evening flight and arrive in Boston after midnight. Crash in airport and take first bus to Lincoln at 7:15. Arrive in Lincoln at lunch. Arrange shuttle to grab fuel and ride to Franconia Notch. Hike up to Liberty Springs campsite to spend the first night.

Day 2 - Liberty Springs to Garfield Campsite

Day 3 - Garfield to Ethan Pond - I realize this is a 14 mile day in the Whites but the last few miles are below treeline and pretty flat.

Day 4 - Ethan Pond to Naumen tent site

Day 5 - Naumen to the Perch

Day 6 - Perch to Pinkham Notch

Day 7 - Pinkham to stealth site just past Carter Dome

Day 8 - stealth site to US 2

Day 9 - Bus from Gorham back to Boston and fly home

***Contingency plan for bad weather would be to hole up wherever we are at and do a shorter day or days, then bail at Pinkham with enough time to still make it back to Boston for our flight on day 9.

Thoughts?

colorado_rob
10-13-2014, 11:46
Okay, so after studying what everyone advised and looking at my AT guide here is what I've come up with. Please feel free to make suggestions:

...

Thoughts? Having just done the whites ourselves (SOBO, Gorham to Glencliff, my wife and I), this sounds reasonable. Your day three is entirely reasonable even being 14 miles because as you say, there is a 3-4 mile stretch that is very flat and easy, really the only flat/easy few miles in the entire White's part of the AT !

We stayed one night at the Perch as well, nice place, yeah 0.8 off the trail and a thousand feet down (or more?) but decent trail and nice side hike.

FWIW, we consider ourselves to be very strong hikers, we hike all the time, every weekend and then some out her mostly in Colorado, but I tell ya, those Whites kick our butts. We only averaged 12-13 miles a day, max being about 15, min about 10, all long days. Beautiful, but hard miles! NH folks are t-o-u-g-h tough!

Slo-go'en
10-13-2014, 17:01
It you take the Randolph path out of Edmands col down to the Perch, you only loose about 500 feet, most of that in the last 1/4 mile. If you climb out of the Col via the Gulf Side trail (AT) and descend via Israel ride trail to Randolph path to the Perch, then you add an extra 500 feet of so of elevation change.

We definitely don't make it easy to thru hike the Whites. Keep in mind that planning on using so called "stealth" sites is hit or miss. First, you have to find them. If you can see it from the trail, it probably isn't legal (though that is a minor detail to most visitors "from away"). Second, you have to hope your the first one there. There are a lot of side trails from the valley leading up to the ridge line near these stealth sites so someone could beat you to it well before you get there. Designated tents sites and shelters tend to fill up early on the weekends. What ever you do, don't come here end of the July or early August as that is the peak of the busy season. Before July 4th or after school starts in mid August gives you the best chance on not being turned away and having to walk out to the road via a side trail, after dark and beat.

DaveRowell
10-18-2014, 23:33
I will say that it is very doable to stealth camp all the way across. I did it last year. If you talk to people along the way you will hear when there are rangers are on the trail. There are many places where you can get far enough off trail to be out of sight. I left my spots pristine. I am from NH and have hiked your route many times. It is very demanding. Send a maildrop to Pinkham Notch. Stop at the huts and eat their leftovers. In short carry as little as possible. I agree that the shelters add alot of distance to the route but it's not that bad. The problem is that you have to lose alot of hard earned elevation to get to them and then turn right around in the am and climb back up.
Remember that every notch has a shuttle that will get you either to Gorham or Conway for ten bucks or so. If you haven't been to the Whites before you have to take the time to enjoy the beauty. I hear that the new museum at the observatory is open. I want to see that but I loved the old one.

TomN
10-27-2014, 12:08
Great thread, I will have to get my agenda out and post it up for feedback. We did some hut to hut hiking with my kids years ago and they were able to do 10 miles (with very light packs) so I am thinking 10 - 14 should depending on the mountains for that day.

TomN
10-27-2014, 20:33
Cant type out my whole route till later but I am thinking Nauman campsite to Osgood tentsite would be doable if you start early, have not been killing yourself before that and have good weather, thoughts?

rickb
10-27-2014, 20:49
Cant type out my whole route till later but I am thinking Nauman campsite to Osgood tentsite would be doable if you start early, have not been killing yourself before that and have good weather, thoughts?

For argument's sake, assume that was doable. Best case scenario, you have a glorious day walking the best section of the entire AT.

But what if you are in the clouds, or worse?

Now, contrast that with the same hike but with an overnight at the Perch along the way. You are then guaranteed 2 days walking the best section of the entire AT, and you double your chance of one of them having glorious weather.

Not that walking in the clouds is all bad :-).

Stay flexible if you can.

Kerosene
10-28-2014, 11:51
Not sure if it will help, but here is my itinerary from my Whites section hike in Sept. 2006 as a 49-year old:

Day 1: Departed Glencliff/NH-25 at 2:30 pm to Beaver Brook Shelter (7.9 miles; 646 vertical feet/mile)
Day 2: Eliza Brook Shelter (9.1 miles; 670'/mi) - thought about pushing on to Kinsman Pond but glad I didn't
Day 3: Liberty Spring Campsite (11.4 miles; 759'/mi) - tough, tough climb up South Kinsman
Day 4: Galehead Hut (10.4 miles; 625'mi) - we lolligagged along Franconia Ridge on a perfect Fall day
Day 5: Crawford Notch/US-302 (14.7 miles; 442'/mi) - easier day despite length with nice trail after Zealand Notch
Day 6: Zero day
Day 7: Lake of the Clouds Hut (11.4 miles; 482'/mi) - steep but lovely climb up Webster Cliffs, but could have walked further
Day 8: Pinkham Notch/NH-16 (13.8 miles; 681'/mi) - Had a perfect day to summit and took our time down to Osgood Tentsite before picking up the pace trying to beat sunset

TomN
10-28-2014, 19:59
Here is a rough draft, I would like to do at least 10 miles per day, flexible on the start location but only have 9 or 10 days.


NH25A - Jeffers Brook Shelter - 10.7
Jeffers Brook Shelter - Beaver Brook Shelter - 6.9
Beaver Brook Shelter - Kinsman Pond Shelter - 13
Kinsman Pond Shelter - Franconia Notch Mail Drop - Liberty Spring Campsite - 7.5
Liberty Spring Campsite - Garfield Ridge Shelter - 7.6 (stealth camping near Galehead hut?)
Garfield Ridge Shelter - Ethan Pond Campsite - 14.5
Ethan Pond Campsite - Nauman Campsite - 9.3
Nauman Campsite - Osgood Tentsite - 14.9 (or less and make up next day)
Osgood Tentsite - NH16 - 4.7

Slo-go'en
10-28-2014, 22:37
(stealth camping near Galehead hut?)

Nope, not a chance. Don't even think about it. Between Franconia Notch and Zealand falls there is zero chance of stealth camping. Your petty much above tree line, in scrub brush and scampering around boulders the whole way. Keep in mind camping is not permitted within 1/4 mile of designated sites. If you try, in this area there is a good chance you will be found, fined and forced to pack up and hike out in the dark. You are in an ecologically sensitive and heavily traveled area.

Since I suspect your no spring chicken in peak form, trying to get between Nauman and Osgood would be a very difficult day. Sure, it's *only 15 miles* but in terms of effort and calories burned, it will feel like 30. Your average pace on this section is likely to be not much more than 1 mph, so it could take up to 15 hours to do. Watch out for afternoon thunderstorms! You don't want to be up there and exposed during one of those! Again, nearly all of those 15 miles are above tree line. But all depends on the weather. If you hit it right, it's awesome. If it's not, well good luck.

Once you pass Madison hut, there is no place to camp before you get to Osgood - your descending off of Mt Madison on what amounts to a cliff all the way to Osgood. This is one serious knee cruncher of a decent, made even more difficult at the end of a long hard day.

Planning on staying at the Perch would be the sane thing to do, with the Valley Way tent site possible, provided you get to the turn off to the Perch early enough. (you'd want at least a couple more hours of day light). The Perch is a really nice place to stay. It's one of the few places close to tree line which you can legally camp at.

If you can't split this leg into two nights, heading directly to Pinkham Notch via one of the Mt Washington trails (or auto road) is an option. A good one if the weather turns on you.

As to if you'll actually fine space at all of these shelters and campsites is luck of the draw. Blame our close proximity to the Boston area and the ecologically sensitive and rugged terrain which seriously limits where one can camp.

rafe
10-29-2014, 06:24
+1 to everything in SloGo'en's post above. Not many folks on this site know the Whites (and in particular, the Presidentials) like he does.

For the OP, I don't really see an easy way out, other than a more conservative schedule, or just doing fewer miles in the given time. I've never stayed at Nauman (that I can remember) but I have stayed at the Perch a few times. I've also had the experience of being rousted from a "stealth" site by a ranger well after dark. He was nice about it -- basically said, if we packed up and hiked to the hut, he'd let us off. The folks at the hut took an IOU.

SloGo'en is spot on about the descent off Madison being a knee-cruncher. Kerosene is also spot on about the ascent of South Kinsman. There's not much "easy" hiking in the Whites, except maybe short stretches along the two high ridges, and the stretch between Zealand hut and US 302. (That last, between Zealand hut and 302, can turn into a river if it's been raining.) The high ridges are hit-or-miss, depending on the weather.

TomN
10-29-2014, 08:16
Im in my 40s, usually do 15 - 20+ miles a day after a few days on the trail, my longest recent day was 23 leaving the GSMNP this spring. I'll probably hammock this trip with a pad in case I want to use a shelter or hut. I would not mind staying at Lake in the Clouds but what do you do if there is no room?

rafe
10-29-2014, 09:41
Im in my 40s, usually do 15 - 20+ miles a day after a few days on the trail, my longest recent day was 23 leaving the GSMNP this spring. I'll probably hammock this trip with a pad in case I want to use a shelter or hut. I would not mind staying at Lake in the Clouds but what do you do if there is no room?

They will make room, even if you end up sleeping on the floor of the common area.

Kerosene
10-29-2014, 10:40
NH25A - Jeffers Brook Shelter - 10.7
Jeffers Brook Shelter - Beaver Brook Shelter - 6.9
Beaver Brook Shelter - Kinsman Pond Shelter - 13
Kinsman Pond Shelter - Franconia Notch Mail Drop - Liberty Spring Campsite - 7.5
Liberty Spring Campsite - Garfield Ridge Shelter - 7.6 (stealth camping near Galehead hut?)
Garfield Ridge Shelter - Ethan Pond Campsite - 14.5
Ethan Pond Campsite - Nauman Campsite - 9.3
Nauman Campsite - Osgood Tentsite - 14.9 (or less and make up next day)
Osgood Tentsite - NH16 - 4.7The 13 miles on Day 3 will be a long day. The descent from Beaver Brook Shelter is extremely steep; don't do what I did and try to make time, as I'm convinced that I overused my quads which contributed to my first-ever knee pain on a hike. Also, with this schedule you will have a very steep climb up South Kinsman at the end of Day 3. Consider starting at NH-25 instead of NH-25A. If you really don't want to do that, then I'd suggest covering 17.6 miles that first day and only 10 the second day, which would be easier in my opinion (I found the climb up the south slope of Moosilauke to be long but reasonable).

There is a side trail that intersects the AT just south of Galehead Hut. I wonder if there might be any stealth camping available down that trail? I know there isn't anything available to the north for several miles.

As Slo-go-n states, the 14.9 miles from Nauman to Osgood is a stretch, especially if you run into any bad weather. If you don't make it all the way to Osgood then your only alternative as far as I know is Madison Spring Hut.

rafe
10-29-2014, 14:28
The 13 miles on Day 3 will be a long day. The descent from Beaver Brook Shelter is extremely steep; don't do what I did and try to make time, as I'm convinced that I overused my quads which contributed to my first-ever knee pain on a hike. Also, with this schedule you will have a very steep climb up South Kinsman at the end of Day 3.

Ayup. Beaver Brook and South Kinsman are sort of saying, "Welcome to the White Mountains." I started at NH 112 and made it to Kinsman Shelter, with a ridiculously heavy pack. That ascent up S. Kinsman at the end of the day was a killer. But it was a fine view once I made it to the top.

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