What would you do? the right thing or nothing.....

[Wise Old Owl]

On my many hikes on the AT I come across a diverse bunch of wonderful people that enjoy a great pastime. But I also see some people that make me wonder... will they get into trouble on the trail? As I sat with a group of hikers at the Port Clinton Hotel over a beer I posed the question, "What would you do?" Well here is what really happened and at different times and observations - it happens all the time at the parking lots close to sunset.

What I saw was as best as I can describe, this is a mom with a three year old boy and a 4 year old girl and a chocolate Labrador about 45 minutes in from the lot at 5pm on a Sunday last week. I did not observe a pack, flashlight, no visible water, everyone was in sneakers and by my account 6:30 was sunset and civil twilight was 7pm or total darkness. Nighttime temperatures are 48° which can or may be hypothermic in fall conditions. Clearly no coats, hats or mittens on this trip, and miles from any outlook. This is at the bottom on the east side of Hawk Mountain and the sunset is in the west - so civil twilight would be like a light switch in the woods. Now the deal breaker - the mom has a thick English accent and clearly is not in GB and may not know what she may be getting into.

What would you say?

Concern?
Have a great day?
Have you considered?
Would you reach out or pass?

[RADHiker]

Wow...as a Mom, I couldn't ignore that one. I would have to at least ask her her plans to see if she was aware of the potential dangers.

[Wise Old Owl]

interesting and she evades as you may appear to pry a little. "Oh we are out for a short walk" (to nowhere)

Many here would do this to avoid revealing where they are going or sleeping.

But a great start. Thanks!

[RADHiker]

Probably so, but it would at least open the door. I'd rather speak up and warn her than say nothing and find out later that something awful (and avoidable) happened. I wouldn't sleep a wink if I stayed silent.

Here's a different twist.....it's raining, middle of the night and a fellow hiker is lost, trying to find his way back to his tent. Do you get up and risk both of you being lost or stay dry in the tent? True story.....

[Second Hand]

If the situation truly looks dangerous, I think you have an obligation to say something.
I had a similar situation happen last weekend. I was doing a section hike on the long trail, coming down Mount Mansfield to Smugglers Notch where I had someone picking me up. It was about 5PM and I was within a mile of the trail head when I came across a family who was just gassed coming up the hill. The mother looked at me and said, "what are we about 3/4ths of the way there?" I asked where they intended to go and she said "we are trying for the summit of Mount Mansfield, what do you think? 2/3rds of the way there?"

I honestly thought she was joking at first. I told her they weren't even a quarter of the way there and they would never make it up and back before sun down. They looked so exhausted I think they were relieved to hear they could start heading back to their cars. I suggested they check out a little waterfall a little further down the trail and went on my way.

[Second Hand]

"Here's a different twist.....it's raining, middle of the night and a fellow hiker is lost, trying to find his way back to his tent. Do you get up and risk both of you being lost or stay dry in the tent? True story....."


Did they ask for help? It seems weird to have lost track of where your tent is. I think I would offer to help (hoping he said no), but ultimately I would try to help.

[imscotty]

WOO, I am not sure if you meant they were heading in or heading out.

If we were both heading out then I would tend to slow down my pace and keep in the general vicinity without intruding in case my headlight or assistance was needed. I do not think it is necessary to call the situation out, I figure mom will realize her errors once the lights go out and things get chilly. Experience is a great teacher, I would just stay close enough to to lend a hand if help was needed. I have seen this happen before and I think my help was appreciated.

If I came across this family and they were heading in at this hour and I was heading out then I think something must be said if kids are involved. I would first try to strike up a conversation to see if they understand the situation they are in. Perhaps they have a base camp nearby and are just exploring, perhaps there is a husband just around the bend lugging everyone's equipment. Of course you risk the possibility of being seen as a 'Creepy Guy' if conversation is not welcome. If being circumspect does not work, I think then you need to just come out and say 'I am worried about you' (in a non accusatory way). Luckily, I have never had to do this.

What I see too often is young adult males heading up the mountains in the Whites in skimpy gear in a race against the sun going who knows where. It reminds me of when I was young and full of life and taking stupid risks myself. Sometimes I offer a word of caution and might suggest a bailout route or shelter, but for the most part I keep to myself. Experience is a great teacher.

[RADHiker]

The hiker was calling out for anyone to help.....I did try to give verbal instructions but I didn't leave my tent because I don't see well in the dark. No doubt I would have been lost person #2 as our tents were well off the trail. It was probably one of my most unnerving experiences on the trail. Thankfully all ended well.

[Wise Old Owl]

I like where this is going.. keep the reply's coming!

I'M Scotty heading in...Yes I was the creepy guy even though I am a Grandpa.

[squeezebox]

lost from the privy is why I plan to carry a 1 oz flashlight to use as a "porch light"
I am not responsible from saving someone from discomfort.
I am responsible from saving someone from dying.

[johnnybgood]

I see similiar circumstances all the time in Shenandoah Nat'l Park with tourtists .
Many of these are city dwellers with small kids that are walking away from their car an hour before sunset with no flashlights and no water bottles. I've actually stopped a family of six asian americans this past summer when the conditions warranted hydration concerns and got them to discuss their options. They thanked me for my insight.

Met some this past weekend , or should I say they sought me out to ask me questions about wildlife, scenic views in the park.
It's during this interaction that I inquire and advice . Never a bad idea to show concern especially when children are involved.

[gsingjane]

I have run across both of these situations (lost hiker in the night and ill-prepared family/group). Unfortunately, people are very hinky about low-probability events (that you are a Creepy Guy/Stalker who means them harm or wants to stalk them) and not nearly hinky enough about higher-probability events (that they'll run out of daylight or get lost without a map).

Here would be my parameters: if it's a group and I'm leading it, I'm absolutely obligated to do everything I can to rectify the situation. This includes getting up in the middle of the night for the cold or wet or lost hiker, come what may, and yes that's happened. (As a corollary, people who hike with me aren't permitted to wander around looking for the privy in the middle of the night, they pee within arm's reach of their tent or hold it until first light.)

If it isn't my group, my approach is usually to say something like "hey, how's it going?" with the hope of chatting up the people and getting a sense for their plans. This is much easier for me because I'm a middle-aged woman and nobody finds us threatening. I have, on occasion, offered unsolicited advice when I believe there is a significant chance the group will run into actual danger, and probably I'm more proactive still when it involves kids. Adults - I'm more along the lines of, if you know the score, and you disregard it, then I've done what I can.

I'm having a little trouble envisioning the situation where a hiker who isn't known to you or part of your group, is lost in the night and what? calling out for help? In that case, it would seem the easiest thing to do would be simply to call back and let the sound of your voice guide him or her back to safety, or shine a light to be followed. There certainly would be things you could do, short of getting up and thrashing around in the underbrush yourself in the dark -

Jane

[hikernutcasey]

Great thread. I have had a few encounters where after passing someone I thought to myself I should have tried to discern what their intentions were due to fading daylight, water concerns etc. I always struggle to know whether or not to say something. For the most part I think I tend to overthink these things and worry for no reason but the thing is you just never know. A simple "Hello, how's it going?" will usually get the conversation started and you can inform them if the situation warrants. I've never had anyone seem perturbed that I'm trying to help them.

There have been several times I've offered someone some advice similar to those talked about in this thread but never anything where I thought they would be in severe danger. Mostly just helping folks understand that they may have bitten off a little more than they could chew in terms of distance and daylight left.

[wornoutboots]

I'm sociable so I normally start up a conversation. When I sense possible danger, I always ask them their plans whether it's taken as "prying" or not. I'd rather "lovingly give helpful information than nothing at all.

I had a very experienced backpacker friend of mine who got out of his tent in the middle of the night to answer a "White Castle" call of nature, I heard his tent unzip then I went back to bed. In the morning he shared that he forgot his headlamp & was screaming at the top of his lungs to get our attention because he was so turned around & wander so far from camp. Luckily he had his dog with him because after he was through calling for us, he called for his dog & the dog came and walked him right back to his tent.

[Slo-go'en]

I often offer unsolicited advice, which is also often ignored. But at least I tried.

This summer I advised a guy with 2 boys they should start heading back down quickly as T-storm was approaching. They had no rain gear, cotton clothes and would soon break out onto exposed sections of the trail. Of course, they kept climbing and shortly found themselves in a really nasty storm with close by lightning, heavy rain and hail.

[tiptoe]

I would say something. First I'd strike up a casual, nonthreatening conversation, then I'd turn on the tact and offer information on the trail and maybe advice (You know, you may not want to head into the woods at this hour, since...). Once, btw, I and my then teenaged son were hiking in the Low Alps in France near the Italian border, and as we were about to start the trail a man in a pickup truck stopped to inform us that the weather had been very dry lately and there was no water for 10 km or so. So I thanked him en francais and told him we were experienced hikers and had maps and several liters of water. I remember thinking that in the US most likely nobody would have done that.

[Spirit Walker]

DH and I were in the Shenandoahs just after autumn time change one year. WE were surprised by the earlier than expected darkness, but we were prepared with flashlights and warm clothes. We had done the loop up and down Buck Ridge, which is a pretty steep rocky climb and rather slow if you aren't in good shape. As we got close to our car at the bottom of the mountain, it was just getting dark. We met a group of hikers heading up. They had started at the top of the mountain. We knew they would be hiking in full dark, and as far as we could tell they had no flashlights. We offered them ours, but they refused, saying, "We'll be okay." Given the rocks, I wasn't so sure of that, but they were adults, so we wished them well and went on. It wasn't until we were 100 yards past that I realized we should have offered them a ride up the mountain to their vehicles. By then they were out of sight.

[gollwoods]

I was coming down gregory ridge trail after a few days hike when I ran into a group of severa lpeople of various ages going up but it was obvious it was going to rain and they were just at the campsite about 1 mi or something from the car. they had just felt like a walk and decided another 2.5 hr walk up was too much so they turned around but the nice thing was when I got back to the lot on forge creek road they offered me a ride back to the cades cove campground in the back of the truck where I had left my car, so I got saved from a 6 mile plus road walk in the rain plus got a open air tour of cades cove. they were quite impressed with my whisperlite and tea kettle as I made a cup of coffee when they came up the trail too. nice finish to good hike

[lemon b]

In that case I'd tailgate em until I knew they were safe. In most cases I mind my own business. They might have had a camp nearby or other people.

[waasj]

Three summers ago SOBO Out between Roan and the Humps I ran into a couple of folks headed North toward the Humps with no gear visible about four in the afternoon, so still a few hours of day light. Struck up a conversation and it turns out they are from my home town and grew up with my older cousins and went to school with my sister. I asked them their plans and advised them that there might be weather issues and that there were only a few water options. They thanked me and we went on our ways. I ran into them the other night and asked them how their walk was and they said they really wished they had had some extra snacks and water, but that they made it OK. Next time I bet they are a bit more prepared. Hard to know where the line is.

[MuddyWaters]

Here's a different twist.....it's raining, middle of the night and a fellow hiker is lost, trying to find his way back to his tent. Do you get up and risk both of you being lost or stay dry in the tent? True story.....

Good reason to pee in ziplock, and take care of other business before turning in.

[imscotty]

WHO - are you going to tell us what happened in your encounter?

[Bronk]

Last year a father and two small children froze to death in just such a situation. It was a nice sunny day in the 60s so they weren't dressed very warmly, but as night fell and it started to rain they were in big trouble. They missed the fork in the trail that would have led them back to the campground they were staying at, so when they sent out a search party they were looking in the wrong area.

[Bronk]

However, given the scenario you just outlined, I wouldn't necessarily assume anything was wrong. What if they had already set up their camp somewhere nearby and all of their gear was there? What if they had left their gear in the shelter and went out for a hike after dinner. You never really know in these situations.

[Cookerhiker]

Last April, I managed to secure a campsite reservation at Bright Angel Campground at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. After passing Indian Garden, I noted the Park Service signs warning day hikers not to proceed further; anyone with any wherewithal should have the common sense to know not to go further but the signs reinforce that. After another few miles, I met two young Latino guys hiking up with daypacks, asking me how much further they had to go. 15 minutes later, a young Latina woman hiking alone asked me the same. "Are you with the 2 guys up ahead?" "Yes." "You have a ways to go - hope you get there before dark. You got water?" She was out of water.

But the worse was yet to come: within sight of the river, another young Latina woman was hiking up slowly and painfully. "How much further to the rim?" I thought to myself, jeez, you just hiked it today. Aloud: "Sweetheart, you're not going to make it before dark. Do you have any water?" She didn't. All I could do was give her a little water. I suppose I could have torpedoed my whole hike and walked up with her but frankly, I didn't even think of that at the time (I'm not the fastest thinker around, LOL). Bottom line, I didn't hear any stories when I returned the next day so I guess disaster didn't strike. It made me wonder how many ill-prepared people have met the worst fate. These folks, especially the last one, either hiked in darkness (dangerous in the GC or spent the night along the trail). A tragedy waiting to happen.

If nothing else, the 4 of them should have stuck together. The 2 guys were very irresponsible to get so far ahead but perhaps the intense sun (even in April) affected their judgement.

[KillerKarma]

Just this past summer I was hiking Breakneck and was approached by a woman hiking without a pack. She just had one small water bottle (16oz or so). She also had three young boys (under 12) with her and a dog that promptly collapsed in my bit of shade. It was at least 95 degrees out. When she reached me I was at the top of the mountain. She asked me what the quickest way down was. I told her I could point out her options on her map...which she didn't have. She had passed the trail she wanted by about .75 miles. I showed her mine and described what color markers she'd be looking for on her way. I asked her if she needed water for her, her boys, or her dog. She showed me her half empty bottle and told me they were all set. I very gently told her that she might want to let the dog have some of that water and a break in the shade before heading down...and they quickly took off in the wrong direction.

I see so many city slickers hitting the Hudson Highland trails every weekend I can't stop to try and help them all. The majority are wearing sandals and toting small dogs. I rarely see more than a tiiny amount of water, if any. I would say of the folks I've talked to MAYBE 1/10 carry a map. I frequently ask people about snakes and get puzzled looks when I mention the 5+ rattlers I passed on my way to that point.

Being a novice is one thing. Being naive is another. We were all beginners at one point, but I've never been quite that unprepared or unaware of my surroundings. I saw someone step on a copperhead and didn't even know.