View Full Version : Pack wt. vs. skin out
squeezebox
11-02-2014, 01:24
I wish to contend that "skin out" is much more accurate than "pack wt". An extreme example would be "My shelter is strapped to the outside of my pack, since it's not inside my pack it doesn't count as pack wt." a gas canister counts as pack wt. but alcohol doesn't. Cameling up doesn't count as water wt. but carrying in a bottle the same ,or less amount of water, does count. if it's in your belly or in a bottle it's still wt. There's a lot of difference between 3 lb. boots and 1 lb trail runners. One person can say they are carrying an item, another say they are wearing it. Not to mention seasonal stuff, like winter base layer vs. summer base layer. Too easy to fudge stuff on trail wt.
So tell us all of what you're really carrying not just part of it.
jjozgrunt
11-02-2014, 08:12
Really this is just another of those inane questions asked by people with nothing better to do. Lets also get a total weight, ie you with all your gear on?
To make it fair you must have all just eaten a meal consisting of a roast lamb, 3 slices, with gravy and 6 ozs of vegies. Drunk one glass of water only (beer or wine acceptable). Oh don't forget to go to the loo before weighting.
Next we will have to classify by sex and BMI, have a sliding scale for comparison based of age, and mustn't forget to include a graph somewhere for the amount of money spent on gear, with a side bar for bought new or second hand.
Obvious missing fact, with or without a beard or have you recently shaved your legs or other body parts? That will add a few grams, the bloody cheaters!
No one can blow their nose or god forbid pick it before weight in but you will be allowed to trim nails and clear out belly button fluff and ear wax. And guys no unloading any other weight wink wink nudge nudge.
If you normally wear glasses or any other type of aid they must be worn.
Did I forget anything?
kayak karl
11-02-2014, 08:19
your first statement that the tent don't count confuses me. i don't get that, but for me i really don't care what YOUR carrying. i use weights to purchase new gear and try to replace stuff with lighter stuff. i don't know my total gear weight. as far as fudging goes, i didn't know it was a competition, but i will probably be proven wrong as the posters try to out do each other ;)
12trysomething
11-02-2014, 08:24
your first statement that the tent don't count confuses me. i don't get that, but for me i really don't care what YOUR carrying. i use weights to purchase new gear and try to replace stuff with lighter stuff. i don't know my total gear weight. as far as fudging goes, i didn't know it was a competition, but i will probably be proven wrong as the posters try to out do each other ;)
My post is less words than your post.
kayak karl
11-02-2014, 08:28
My post is less words than your post. and makes less sense ;)
The way I look at it is that I take what I need and pack weight takes care of itself. I haven't weighed my full pack in quite a while.
(actually, that's not true - I weighed it at Mountain Crossings last week out of curiousness)
I'm not sure why there is so much controversy regarding base weight, total pack weight, and skin out weight. These are simple concepts. Base weight is useful in terms of being able to understand base load regardless of how long the trip will take while total pack weight simply accounts for consumables and will vary with trip length. Skin out weight is self explanatory with the difference between pack weight and skin out weight simply representing clothing and items carried by hand like trekking poles.
Probably the most interesting point the OP makes is related to water weight. I tend to agree that excessively cameling up at a water source simply transfers pack weight into body weight and I don't like excess water sloshing around in my stomach.
I like a skin out weight without food and water for comparison purposes. It is a more honest weight.
MuddyWaters
11-02-2014, 13:03
It all weighs, it all matters.
They are ways of measuring different PARTS of what you carry
Skinout includes all carried and worn items., can be dramatically more for some folks.. My carried and worn items usually amount to 4 lbs or so in warm weather.
Poles 10.5 oz
Watch 2 oz
Camera 4 oz
TP 1 oz
Map profile 0.5 oz
Shirt 3.2 oz
Underwear 2.8 oz
Cargo pocket shorts 9 oz
Socks 2 oz
Shoes 22 oz
Gaiters 1.5 oz
Hat 2.8 oz
ID,credit card 1oz
I could cut my weight by wearing 3 oz running shorts instead of my compression short and cargo shorts combo, but I like camera, map, and tp in pockets where always accessible. I also like ID on my person, not in pack, in case something should happen to me.
If your tent is on outside of pack, its in your base pack wt.
If you carry your tent in you hand, put it in your pocket, or wear it on your head it would be part of skin out.
Slo-go'en
11-02-2014, 14:27
If it gets carried on my back, it counts. Clothes I wear are added to my body weight, since they are effectively part of my body. The exception is outerwear and/or extra layers, which are usually carried in the pack.
freightliner
11-02-2014, 14:53
Out on the trail people ask how much dose your pack weigh. I have never had anybody ask me what's your shirt weigh. Pack weight is what hurts the most. Maybe what you need to ask is total weight if anybody really cares. Well all put everything on and step on a scale. I will win the heaviest hiker award but it won't stop me from hiking.
Baseweights are good for making comparisons as long as everyone is being honest and isn't trying to artificially make it seem like it weighs less. In which case, skin out weight reveals that dishonesty. But, as I don't care if someone is lying about their weight as they'll still have to carry it. If someone is resulting to playing such dishonest games based on some technicality, it isn't going to help them reduce pack weight. And I don't have time to listen to such foolishness.
So I usually just stick with baseweight when talking gear. But I actually do know the weight of everything that what I'm wearing and carrying that isn't included in my baseweight as I weigh everything and consider the weight of my clothes when I buy them. Because the less weight you carry in your pack, on your body, and aren't carrying on your belly all makes for a more pleasant day hiking.
The goal is to have what I need and no more - not to have a pack that weighs some particular number. Who cares what the number is?
This is where I'm at with the subject.
BuckeyeBill
11-02-2014, 17:49
Baseweights are good for making comparisons as long as everyone is being honest and isn't trying to artificially make it seem like it weighs less. In which case, skin out weight reveals that dishonesty. But, as I don't care if someone is lying about their weight as they'll still have to carry it. If someone is resulting to playing such dishonest games based on some technicality, it isn't going to help them reduce pack weight. And I don't have time to listen to such foolishness.
So I usually just stick with baseweight when talking gear. But I actually do know the weight of everything that what I'm wearing and carrying that isn't included in my baseweight as I weigh everything and consider the weight of my clothes when I buy them. Because the less weight you carry in your pack, on your body, and aren't carrying on your belly all makes for a more pleasant day hiking.
Comparisons to what? Your weight.I don't care about your weight because I don't have to carry it. I have figured out what I want to take with me and then tried to find the lightest possible one on the market and buy it. Light packs cost money so how like do you want to go?
I hike. I take along some stuff. Sometimes, I take too much stuff. Sometimes, I take heavier stuff. Sometimes, I carry stuff. Sometimes, I wear stuff. Perhaps, I could hike bit farther or a bit faster. The only thing I have typed that matters--- "I hike"
Lone Wolf
11-02-2014, 18:14
it's just walkin' with some weight. some folks make the easiest things so technical
BuckeyeBill
11-02-2014, 18:24
like should have been light
Just Bill
11-02-2014, 21:48
Guess I'll be the douchebag.
I agree 100% with using FSO. It prevents spreadsheet magic or fooling yourself. It also forces you to examine things you might not otherwise pay attention to, such as shoe and clothing weight. As well as all the odds and ends stuffed in your pockets.
Examining weights, crunching numbers, and even occasionally using a spreadsheet is something we all** HAVE done.
**(Lone Wolf has never weighed his pack as lone wolves are not pack animals and have no pack to weigh)
I would contend that for quite some time it's a good habit to stick with.
At some point, you go the Kayak Karl route- you check weight for upgrades or gear swaps.
At some point you go the Garlic and Mags route- after decades of experience you pretty well know what you need and what it weighs. You've done enough trips and enough miles in enough different places that it's not that big a deal.
It's not that it's NOT that big a deal, it's that your experience has reached the point that it's second nature and doesn't involve much thought.
Like any other tool- Accurately measuring and examining the weight you carry is part of the deal.
Eventually you get so good at it you don't need to think about it. But you only get that good at it by thinking about it in the first place.
It's not hard to keep a spreadsheet running, and I use it still as I develop different systems approaches and further examine how my gear can replace/combine/simplify each other. But I make my own gear and always tinker, most folks don't and reach a point where only things that wear get replaced.
What some of the folks are trying to tell you- and is quite true-
At some point you also learn that an extra pound of gear is no big deal.
LOL. You're dialed in tonite JB. Well said Jedi Bill - the Hiking Master.
You summed up my exact sentiments on the subject and whre I'm at in my UL philosophy.
Lone Wolf
11-03-2014, 00:18
Guess I'll be the douchebag.
using a spreadsheet is something we all** HAVE done.
**(Lone Wolf has never weighed his pack as lone wolves are not pack animals and have no pack to weigh)
i've never used a spreadsheet. don't know what it is. unless you mean the thing that goes under a tent
rocketsocks
11-03-2014, 00:20
i've never used a spreadsheet. don't know what it is. unless you mean the thing that goes under a tent
LOL perfect!28828
Bill you may have to show him again...the menu thing.
i've never used a spreadsheet. don't know what it is. unless you mean the thing that goes under a tent
LOL. Nah, you gotta be kidding?
MuddyWaters
11-03-2014, 00:42
What some of the folks are trying to tell you- and is quite true-
At some point you also learn that an extra pound of gear is no big deal.
Correct.
Neither is a lb of food, or a L of water.
But one needs a little discipline to keep 1 or 2 extra lbs from becoming 10 or more.
I don't worry about my weight, there is really no way to get much lighter without giving up things I don't want to give up. I'm a wuss, I like bug netting and inflatable pads. Even if I carried heavier hear, it would do the exact same functions. I cant see carrying anything that's not needed for expected conditions.
Lone Wolf
11-03-2014, 00:47
LOL. Nah, you gotta be kidding?
i do not know what a spreadsheet is
"At some point you go the Garlic and Mags route- after decades of experience you pretty well know what you need and what it weighs. You've done enough trips and enough miles in enough different places that it's not that big a deal."
"It's not that it's NOT that big a deal, it's that your experience has reached the point that it's second nature and doesn't involve much thought."
Yes, experience plays into it for sure. You also get stonger physically so that even though you might notice that more than usual pound or two addition from your typical kit it doesn't make as big a deal in your comfort, mileage, joyfully completing your hike, etc
"Like any other tool- Accurately measuring and examining the weight you carry is part of the deal.
Eventually you get so good at it you don't need to think about it. But you only get that good at it by thinking about it in the first place."
Those wt conscious gear habits never die though.
"What some of the folks are trying to tell you- and is quite true-
At some point you also learn that an extra pound of gear is no big deal."
UL blasphemy. LOL. Some never accept that premise though. They are eternally on that UL merry-go -round chasing the latest greatest ever wee bit lighter wt bigger than life gear. There are gear junkies too who are gear shopaholics. I notice some of them. They can discuss gear wts and their pack wts into the morn hrs untl the campfire embers have long been extinguished but when inquiring how much actual boots on the ground hiking they've been dong recently the discussion quickly coms to end.
A true gearaholic loves to take out that latest gear for a test run on the trail. It may never get used again, but it gets used at least once.
That said, I bought a Hexamid Tarp (no beak or netting) last november to try out as I was thinking of replacing my rectangular tarp for a possible CDT hike sometime in the future (and it would save about an ounce of weight). I only got around to actually setting it up for the first time this past September on a 12 day hike. Though in fairness I had carried it on 5 previous trips, but due to my laziness for doing camp chores causing me to keep cowboy camping, it took almost a year to actually get used.
squeezebox
11-03-2014, 09:15
I appreciate the experienced folks the told me, for peace of mind, bring what you think you need and then send stuff home when you realize you don't need it.
Of course there is crazy stuff like hatchets etc. No sense in worrying constantly about your down jacket being warm enough, socks okay, etc, you won't be having any fun being out there. And get some hiking/camping done between now and then.
Jump the fence grab a loaf of bread, or is it the other way around?
Starchild
11-03-2014, 10:02
To me baseweight is nothing but bragging rights, it has no actual bearing on how much is being carried. And it is way to easy to swap out a lighter baseweight for a heavier pack weight, fooling oneself in the process but allowing a lower claimed base weight.
It is also not useful for comparison of systems, unless those systems do not alter consumable usage and weight of consumables (or you account for that, which is no longer base weight). It's easy to fool oneself going for a lighter water purification system only to carry around more water, or stove/no stove and end up carrying heavier food etc.
The measure I like to use is what I term 'Scale on Trail', find a scale that someone left for hiker use then weight your pack of what you are really carrying on trail. Yes the skin on method accounts for items carried on the body, but Scale on Trail accounts for things like a wet tent, how much food and water you actually are carrying with you, even if one choses to gather items such as kindling or wild eatables, a extra role of TP, a cool flashlight you found abandoned in a shelter, and a full bottle of heat or a medium sized canister because you got one for free in a hiker box - the real deal weight, not some theoretical number under idea conditions in one's home.
This thread might soon be placed into the anti-UL forum.
Being so technical about the weight of your gear to go so far as weighing the clothes your wearing makes no sense to me if you are not in ideal shape. I, for example, am probably 50-60 pounds overweight. What, then, is the point of me debating a 5 oz shirt vs. a 8 oz shirt? If you don't have much spare weight to lose then feel free to analyze the details to death but when you could save more weight by dropping 5 pounds before a hike than you could by spending thousands to shave 5 pounds of gear weight, that's just silly.
swisscross
11-03-2014, 12:22
I really don't understand skin out weight.
I wear clothes everyday. The clothes I wear are dependent on the weather, on the trail or off.
What matters the most to me is base weight. If it is chilly I will carry a few extra clothing items but most if not all my other gear will be the same.
This thread might soon be placed into the anti-UL forum.
I think the forum itself tends to lean anti-UL. Not a judgement one way or the other - just an observation.
Really this is just another of those inane questions asked by people with nothing better to do. Lets also get a total weight, ie you with all your gear on?
To make it fair you must have all just eaten a meal consisting of a roast lamb, 3 slices, with gravy and 6 ozs of vegies. Drunk one glass of water only (beer or wine acceptable). Oh don't forget to go to the loo before weighting.
Next we will have to classify by sex and BMI, have a sliding scale for comparison based of age, and mustn't forget to include a graph somewhere for the amount of money spent on gear, with a side bar for bought new or second hand.
Obvious missing fact, with or without a beard or have you recently shaved your legs or other body parts? That will add a few grams, the bloody cheaters!
No one can blow their nose or god forbid pick it before weight in but you will be allowed to trim nails and clear out belly button fluff and ear wax. And guys no unloading any other weight wink wink nudge nudge.
If you normally wear glasses or any other type of aid they must be worn.
Did I forget anything?
I have, on my spreadsheet an entry for moisture factor. I can enter 1%, 2%, or any percent of total weight, moisture that get added to the total weight. For example, a wet tent. The only fallacy is I really don't know what percentage of moisture is on a wet tent.
jjozgrunt
11-03-2014, 17:08
I have, on my spreadsheet an entry for moisture factor. I can enter 1%, 2%, or any percent of total weight, moisture that get added to the total weight. For example, a wet tent. The only fallacy is I really don't know what percentage of moisture is on a wet tent.
I like it, boots, socks, tent and clothes would be the obvious picks to suffer from a moisture factor.
But that has got me spinning down a different corridor "The Dirt Factor"! Every day on the trail you would accumulate extra dirt on your body, clothes, tent etc. Since I'm going on a long walk soon where it will be 13 days before I get a chance to wash and do laundry I'm going to weight those items that will get dirty before and after and come up with a daily increase in weight based on dirt, the Dirt Factor.
Since you should be washing your body in some manner for hygiene purposes and will probably be loosing weight, I won't include my body in the testing procedure.
Weight only matters to those who can't carry it (whether in pack or on person). Since pack weight means less than nothing to me, I don't bother with it. I suspect my pack weight is around 28-33 lbs depending on length of trip and if it will be cold. If I needed to consistently get 18-20+ mile days, then pack weight may become a factor. But at my traditional 15-18 mile days, pack weight is irrelevant.
Tapon has a pretty good article on this subject http://francistapon.com/Travels/Continental-Divide-Trail/Gear-Rant
It's fun being a weight weenie while thinking about it at home, but once on the trail all that worrying tends to fade away.
swisscross
11-03-2014, 18:42
Tapon has a pretty good article on this subject http://francistapon.com/Travels/Continental-Divide-Trail/Gear-Rant
It's fun being a weight weenie while thinking about it at home, but once on the trail all that worrying tends to fade away.
I think Jawnsee makes a great point.
My last hike I fretted over weight. While on the trail I picked up about 2 lbs of garbage. I hated the fact that it was there but did not mind the extra weight.
I like it, boots, socks, tent and clothes would be the obvious picks to suffer from a moisture factor.
But that has got me spinning down a different corridor "The Dirt Factor"! Every day on the trail you would accumulate extra dirt on your body, clothes, tent etc. Since I'm going on a long walk soon where it will be 13 days before I get a chance to wash and do laundry I'm going to weight those items that will get dirty before and after and come up with a daily increase in weight based on dirt, the Dirt Factor. ....
I've done that several times weighing on postal scales my totally empty clean new ULA CDT backpack before hiking with it and then weighing it after a month of hiking. I routinely add 2- 2.5 ozs of grime/sweat/lint/dirt after only one month on the trail. That's more than a 10% wt increase as I tweak my ULA CDT backpack wt down to 19-19.5 ozs. Moisture/grime accumulation in my 17 oz WM Highlite down sleeping bag(long version) after a 30 day trail hike can amount to as much as a 3.5 oz wt increase; that's a rather significant to me 20%+ wt increase. This is one reason why my next down sleeping bag/quilt is going to have treated down. Added wt in trail apparel can also be quite significant. Go ahead and weigh a new pr of trail socks. Then, weigh the same pr after a wk of hiking in them in the desert. It has taught me to regularly clean and care for all my gear. With that there has to be some thought of keeping yourself somewhat, reasonably as you can, clean.
Wolf - 23000
11-03-2014, 20:17
I'll jump in on this but I really should stay out of it. My average weight is between 1 - 3 pounds baseweight - not carrying what I am wearing. Nothing in the pockets. I weight my pack weight is on the trail at the Post Office because let face it - on a long distance trail hikers are going to change gear depending on the time of year,section, are you hiking alone or with someone, etc. I don't think it would go over to well if I took off what I was wearing.
A better way that I would prefer is base on someone body weight. I weigh 225 pounds, so I don't even notice carrying around 10-12 pounds on my back. Someone smaller than myself, of course they are going to be able to travel lighter. They also don't eat as much and can travel with smaller/lighter equipment. The draw back they have is a smaller hiker is going to notice the weight more. Someone who only is only 100 pounds the weight different than myself. It is just the way it is.
Wolf
MuddyWaters
11-03-2014, 21:26
Base weight most certainly is not about "bragging rights". No one cares except you.
Weight certainly does matter as well. You hike more comfortably , and faster, carrying less. Your goals will drive the amount of weight you choose to carry.
To be able to control it, you first have to monitor it. Just like your money.
Kaptain Kangaroo
11-04-2014, 00:55
Base weight most certainly is not about "bragging rights". No one cares except you.
Weight certainly does matter as well. You hike more comfortably , and faster, carrying less. Your goals will drive the amount of weight you choose to carry.
To be able to control it, you first have to monitor it. Just like your money.
Well put !!! Doesn't really matter how you measure it, you just need to find your own 'zone' Some people carry 50lbs and are happy with low miles and like comfortable camping, others carry sub 5lb, like big miles and are happy smelling like a dumpsters armpit in their vapour barrier suit.......everyone is different.
I lost 35 lbs. Before my half hike, more than the weight of my fully loaded pack (25 inc. food/water) so I think skin out weight is a great benchmark. A pound is a pound is a pound........
squeezebox
11-04-2014, 13:22
If you lost 35 lbs. doesn't that count as skin under, rather than skin out?
But yea what you're carrying you're carrying, be it light shoes , heavy boots, stoves, etc. 50 lbs of fat etc. It all counts.
What you weigh after a day of fasting, not drinking any water, and eliminating waste is your "inside skin base weight". If you have eaten, drank any water, and have yet to eliminate for the day, then that is your "inside skin total weight".
Another Kevin
11-04-2014, 15:06
I'll agree that From Skin In weight is important. Fully clothed and carrying my pack, supplied for a 4-day hike in warm weather, I weigh less than I did naked four years ago. It makes a difference.
Not entirely as much of a difference as I'd imagined it might. A pound in the belly is easier to carry than a pound on the back. A backpack affects balance. But it's still nice not carrying the excess.
I don't do big miles, so I don't sweat gear weight that much. With my pack as it is, I can carry it on a 12-mile day and wake up then next morning ready to do it again. At the moment, those 12-mile days suit me. Some of my gear is ultralight, some isn't. And some of the tradeoffs between "light and fast" and "heavy and comfortable", I make in the direction of comfort. I don't get into proud comparisons of the size of guys' ... packs.
squeezebox
11-05-2014, 08:08
So in the future please include your BMI, body mass index, to your pack list.
IMO there are two distinct items here. First is pack weight definitions to compare to someone else, and second is pack weight definitions for ones own personal use. For me, the first is where most people get caught up with the issue. Since I am in the camp of not caring what someone else chooses to carry, my definitions are for my personal use only. It allows me to compare my own systems to each other, or from trip to trip, or other reasons. If someone asksme what my pack weighs, I tell them with certain descriptors such as minus food or something. Better yet, I hand them my pack to feel it.
Another Kevin
11-05-2014, 18:24
If someone asksme what my pack weighs, I tell them with certain descriptors such as minus food or something. Better yet, I hand them my pack to feel it.
I just answer, "too heavy, of course!"
BuckeyeBill
11-05-2014, 23:56
I just answer, "too heavy, of course!"
Thanks for the laugh Kevinl
jjozgrunt
11-06-2014, 08:36
So in the future please include your BMI, body mass index, to your pack list.
Actually this is why it is a waste of time comparing weights no matter how you do it. If you are comparing a male 50kgs soaking wet to a 6.2" male that is a big build then there will obviously be a difference even if they carry exactly the same items. Based on the fact the small guy is small to medium in everything whilst the larger person has bigger sizes (and therefore more weight) in everything from the shoes to the hat, pack, sleeping gear just about item including probably needing more food and water to feed their body.
These threads just end up as competitions where the winner, often not a serious walker, gets to say mine is smaller (not something men boast of often).
dangerdave
11-06-2014, 12:12
I completely agree with Moose. Bigger people have bigger gear.
But seriously, this is the very last time I will be posting in one of these pointless weight comparison threads. Carry what you want. I couldn't care less. My pack weight is right for me. Find what's right for you. On my thru-hike, I promise never to ask anyone how much their pack weights. New hikers should research their options, for sure, but this whole UL competition thing just gets goofier all the time.
Some day, someone will figure out how to add helium-filled bladders to a light weight backpack. Then, it will be a moot point.
squeezebox
11-06-2014, 13:53
Any want to see pictures of me skin out??
jjozgrunt
11-07-2014, 08:35
Some day, someone will figure out how to add helium-filled bladders to a light weight backpack. Then, it will be a moot point.
Bugger Danger I thought you may be on to something there, but according to this site, http://www.heliumcalculator.com/ , it would take 3630 helium filled 20" latex balloons to lift my pack wt. Probably not practical!
MuddyWaters
11-09-2014, 23:36
There is no point comparing your packweight to anyone else's.
But stating a weight, does give a lot of information about how much and type of gear carried, to knowledgeable people. Not so much to most of the rest. Someone with an 8 lb base weight, isn't carrying extra clothes, synthetic bag, double wall tent, heavy cookset, etc.