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DaTwiztedOne
11-20-2014, 16:40
what happens when they get 3-4 feet of snow on the trail? how do you hike threw that deep of snow? and if its coming down like it is in buffalo ny how do you keep your shelter from caving in on you over night? i ask this because ive done over night camping in the winter and had a "surprise" snow blow in over night and caved things in on me :( i had a few "big" branches interlocked over my 1 man pup and covered in pine bows for wind block and warmth... about 4am everything collapsed down on me along with about 300 pounds of snow and all the poles.. after the shock wore off i got unstuck from some of the poles laying on me and was able to find the zipper and crawl out. problem was when i crawled out there was about 2" of snow in front of me i had to push to the sides and a lot of it went into my tent :( after i was outside it was dark and still snowing it smothered out my fire, so i crawled back down into my tent and started scooping snow out the hole, after that i flipped my sleeping mat over and went back int my sleeping bag to stay warm BUT there was no sleeping going on lol next day was miserable and took forever to get a fire going again, i was getting ready to pack it out when rangers came down the trails on snowmobiles looking for stranded people.. i told him i had fire and food id walk out latter but he didnt like that idea so he helped me dig out my tent and we rode out :)

sorry about the story i got off track LOL :)

juma
11-20-2014, 20:27
stay home unless you go with tipi walter.

DaTwiztedOne
11-20-2014, 20:53
tipi walter ???

johnnybgood
11-20-2014, 21:02
... about 4am everything collapsed down on me along with about 300 pounds of snow and all the poles.. after the shock wore off i got unstuck from some of the poles laying on me and was able to find the zipper and crawl out. problem was when i crawled out there was about 2" of snow in front of me i had to push to the sides and a lot of it went into my tent :( :)



As they say in Norway, "There's no such thing as bad weather....only bad gear. "

...and what juma said.

HooKooDooKu
11-20-2014, 21:22
tipi walter ???
A White Blaze member known for taking long winter hikes in the TN & NC area.
Perhaps he'll chime in later.

As an example, check out one of his recent posts:
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/107403-21-Days-in-a-Halloween-Snowstorm

Another Kevin
11-20-2014, 21:42
We northerners don't do long-distance hiking in deep winter, but we do get out for trips such as peak-bagging expeditions.

Once there are a couple feet of snow - well, that's what snowshoes or skis are for. (In NY, they're legally required on many trails after an 8-inch snowfall.) Once the snow is packed down to the consistency of concrete, out come the crampons and ice axe.

If you're geared up for it, an overnight peak-bag in a 5-6 foot snowpack can be fun.

CELTIC BUCK
11-20-2014, 21:53
What's happening in the Buffalo area(Lake Effect Snow) is a USA "record" the chance of this depth 7feet in 48 hrs happening while on AT is near zero

freightliner
11-20-2014, 23:13
The big snowstorms usually come from upper level Low's and they will tell you when they're coming you just have to watch the clouds. Upper-level Lows have upper-level clouds would be good for you to Google that so you know what to look for next time. You can also do it I do watch the weather on your smart phone.

Wise Old Owl
11-21-2014, 00:24
I second the nomination He has to hike with Tipi... or stay home.

TNhiker
11-21-2014, 01:12
What's happening in the Buffalo area(Lake Effect Snow) is a USA "record" the chance of this depth 7feet in 48 hrs happening while on AT is near zero



Yeah......

It takes a rare and weird weather event to bring snow that deep....

but it has happened---hurricane sandy dumped nearly 5 feet of snow on the at in the smokies, but it was really warm a couple of days later and much of it was melted in a week....

but, they did have to airlift one hiker out....

CalebJ
11-21-2014, 01:47
The reports for Sandy that I remember were closer to 30" than 60". Where was that much reported in the Smokies?

MuddyWaters
11-21-2014, 02:02
A little snow is pretty
A moderate amount is a hindrance
A lot can be deadly if unprepared

garlic08
11-21-2014, 08:43
In a storm like that, prudence may be the better part of valor. Bail out if you can't dig in.

In this country, it's not hard to get a fairly accurate 5-day forecast. For the typical thru-hiker, that's enough warning to avoid the increasingly common 100-year storms.

There are two extremes in how to travel--carry heavy, bomb-proof gear (and know how to use it) and lots of supplies, or go light and fast and get out quickly (and know how to do it) if things go to hell. Both ways carry different risks.

Always look for "widow makers" before you pitch your camp, no matter the weather.

Bronk
11-21-2014, 12:34
I remember reading reports of snow drifting to 4 or 5 feet. Doesn't mean that much actually fell. You can get a foot of snow and the wind can blow a drift 5 feet high.

rafe
11-21-2014, 12:44
This is why very few thru hikes happen in the dead of winter. It occasionally happens to southbounders especially if they're running slow so that winter overtakes them The Barefoot Sister's southbound journal has a harrowing section about their traversal over Mt. Rogers in deep, blowing snow.

I did a solo weekend hike years ago up Mt. Hayes, north of Gorham. The snow in the photo below was waist deep. Even with snowshoes, it took me half an hour to get up this last little section -- it couldn't have been more than 50 feet of vertical.

28965

Tipi Walter
11-21-2014, 13:22
Might as well join the conversation.

Deep snow changes everything as it usually stops forward mvt for several reasons---snowdowns, postholing, route finding, and setting up camp and striking camp every day.

SNOWDOWNS happen all the time and can really impede mvt---imagine the green tunnel that is the trail and then imagine every bush or rhodo or pine leaning over onto the trail with snow-weight. Can you move thru it? Sure, if you don't mind crawling on your belly with a 60 lb pack to get under the stuff. It's hellish and you'll be finished after about a mile. Snowdowns are a good reason to set up camp and hunker in your tent for the duration, or until the brush springs back up. Snowshoes are absolutely useless in snowdowns.

POSTHOLING truly sucks and especially so when ascending 2,000 feet up a mountain in 2 feet of snow. And nobody I know carries snowshoes here in the mountains of NC and TN. In such deep snow you'll probably lose the trail anyway unless you are very familiar with the area. So, once again, hunker in and sit it out. Don't go calling 911 or hit your SPOT alert---stay focused and stay put and wait it out.

ROUTE FINDING is obvious because in 2 feet of snow there is no trail, just the memory of where you think you need to be. Hunker in by the last blaze and wait. Or find a side trail off the ridge and drop 3,000 feet to lower ground where the 2 feet could be 3 inches. Preferably drop off the south side of the ridge.

SETTING UP AND STRIKING CAMP is about the hardest thing about winter backpacking. Who wants to get out of an ice-encrusted tent in the morning at -10F and pull apart and roll up the shelter? Feet are cold, hands are ice and the blasted tent will not fit in its stuff sack. Expect cursing.

SOLUTIONS
** Kahtoola microspikes
** Voile snow shovel
** Excellent bomb tent
** Adequate geese for long term survival at 0F. Bag, parka, pad, pants, booties etc.

THE VOILE SNOW SHOVEL
One of the biggest hassles of snow camping is preparing the ground surface for your tent. For the last 30+ years I've done it by bending over and scrapping off the snow to ground level to place my tent, or using my boot to move the snow. It's lunacy but has to be done unless you want to set up on 2 feet of soft snow and sink into deep pits. Stomping 2 feet of snow with your boots is also lunacy as you end up with a lumpy mess, ERGO the snow shovel. It'll make quick work of clearing the ground. In fact, it'll be part of my standard winter load on my next trip.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-in-the-Snow/i-Z75RbTN/0/M/TRIP%20153%20165-M.jpg
An example of Snowdowns---and not a very good example as snowdowns can get much worse than this.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/24-Days-in-the-Cold/i-b2hmcnD/0/M/TRIP%20152%20134-M.jpg
Oh, I forgot about creek crossings at Zero degrees. Never fun. Always has to be done in bare feet with crocs or water shoes. NEVER in your boots as they will freeze solid and stay wet for a week. Some people swear by neoprene socks and water shoes.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/24-Days-in-the-Cold/i-PVFX8pT/0/M/TRIP%20152%20123-M.jpg
Polar Vortex, January 2014. By morning it was around -10F where I was camping and so I stayed put for 3 days to wait out the Cold Storm. Yes, there are rainstorms and snowstorms and also coldstorms. Severe cold is an excellent time to put your good 4 season tent to use and hunker in.


http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/10-Days-In-The-Cold/i-pC4Vz68/0/M/TRIP%20117%20087-M.jpg
Deep snow makes mvt slow. Sit put and wait it out.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2010/Five-Miles-of-Living-Hell-on/i-nMhshNw/0/M/TRIP%20107%20155-M.jpg
When it really gets bad, pull out your map and find the closest forest road and use it as a trail to lower ground if possible and to better campsites with less snow.

Tipi Walter
11-21-2014, 13:26
Forgot to add this pic---The Voile XLM shovel---

http://www.backcountry.com/images/items/900/VOL/VOL0056/VOLXLMSG.jpg

And my Kahtoola microspikes in action---

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpack-2014-Trips-152/21-Days-in-the-Snow/i-LcwvXXZ/0/M/TRIP%20153%20250-M.jpg
These will save your butt on a daily basis.

Studlintsean
11-21-2014, 13:39
When are you going to start leading expeditions Tipi?

RED-DOG
11-21-2014, 13:54
I do a lot of winter hiking and I have been in some seriously deep snow especially in the GSMNP and Rockies but I have never been where I couldn't hike on or hike out, if you go prepared you really shouldn't have an issue.

DaTwiztedOne
11-21-2014, 15:06
Might as well join the conversation.

When it really gets bad, pull out your map and find the closest forest road and use it as a trail to lower ground if possible and to better campsites with less snow.


thank you for the input, i dont mind the snow and cold IF i know its coming, i checked the weather before i left and it wasnt supposed to do anything :( wrong answer luckily i always over do things and i had plenty to stay warm and eat, i guess thats why my pack always weighs 10 pounds more than others LOL PS this happened to me BEFORE the smart phones where around LOL so i was going by the weather reports on the tv at home,,,, no way to get updates once i left into the woods,, thanks again for the info....

DaTwiztedOne
11-21-2014, 15:07
thanks everybody for the replys.......

Bati
11-21-2014, 19:44
What's happening in the Buffalo area(Lake Effect Snow) is a USA "record" the chance of this depth 7feet in 48 hrs happening while on AT is near zero

Yes, the chance is near zero, but climate change is creating more extremes. And in 1993, the Storm of the Century dropped 2-4 feet on Chattanooga, and left drifts up to 14 feet on Mount Mitchell. GSMP was closed with everyone evacuated by air. When it reopened, some of the remaining drifts in the Stecoahs were still 7 feet (but could easily be avoided by walking around them.) What probably won't happen again is not being warned of a coming storm; some backpackers didn't hear about this one until after it happened. Shelters became very popular, and only one collapsed, luckily after the occupants had left.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Storm_of_the_Century

rocketsocks
11-21-2014, 19:55
Yes, the chance is near zero, but climate change is creating more extremes. And in 1993, the Storm of the Century dropped 2-4 feet on Chattanooga, and left drifts up to 14 feet on Mount Mitchell. GSMP was closed with everyone evacuated by air. When it reopened, some of the remaining drifts in the Stecoahs were still 7 feet (but could easily be avoided by walking around them.) What probably won't happen again is not being warned of a coming storm; some backpackers didn't hear about this one until after it happened. Shelters became very popular, and only one collapsed, luckily after the occupants had left.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Storm_of_the_Century


...also the blizzard of 96'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_blizzard_of_1996

Tipi Walter
11-22-2014, 12:36
I do a lot of winter hiking and I have been in some seriously deep snow especially in the GSMNP and Rockies but I have never been where I couldn't hike on or hike out, if you go prepared you really shouldn't have an issue.

You are a very lucky man to be able to hike thru snowdowns and deep snow. A couple years ago I was caught in a heavy snow blizzard and spent 3 hours hiking 1 mile across a ridge with waist deep snow. It was hellish. Slow. Did I mention deep? I lost the trail of course but knew it stayed atop the ridge spine so no problemo, except for swimming thru the snow with my butt heavy pack. "Swimming" is the apt word.


Yes, the chance is near zero, but climate change is creating more extremes. And in 1993, the Storm of the Century dropped 2-4 feet on Chattanooga, and left drifts up to 14 feet on Mount Mitchell. GSMP was closed with everyone evacuated by air. When it reopened, some of the remaining drifts in the Stecoahs were still 7 feet (but could easily be avoided by walking around them.) What probably won't happen again is not being warned of a coming storm; some backpackers didn't hear about this one until after it happened. Shelters became very popular, and only one collapsed, luckily after the occupants had left.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Storm_of_the_Century

The Blizzard of '93 is an event dear to my heart and is THE textbook example of what can happen on a winter backpacking trip. I was in my NC ridgetop tipi with a woodstove and fared alot better than the hundreds of backpackers who were stranded in the Southeast mountains. See below pic.

My buddy Hoppin John was airlifted out of the Smokies during the storm, and my friends in the Cranbrook School pulling their annual 10 day wilderness trek in the Citico wilderness had to be rescued with several lost appendages due to frostbite.

I've run the blizzard scenario thru my head a thousand times and it offers a quick course in winter backpacking and preparedness. The blizzard hit fast on a Friday, prime backpacking shove-off time, and by Saturday we had 3 or 4 feet of snow and then came the high winds and the temps between 5F and 10F. Mvt was impossible, hunkering in the only sane choice. I believe the Cranbrook people made it worse for themselves by trying to get out at all costs, when instead they could of set up a permanent tarp camp and hunkered in for the duration. The scramble to get out cost several people their feet and fingers.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/BooneYears/Tipi-Life/i-w9kZLgs/0/L/Tipi%20in%20the%20Blizzard%20of%20%2793-L.jpg
Here is my tipi in the NC mountains at the start of the '93 blizzard. I spent all night with a shovel digging out my door entrance so the high drifts wouldn't seal me inside. And my one mile foot trail up to the tipi was a deep mess but heck I wasn't going anywhere anyway and had plenty of food and firewood to get me thru the thing.

My little battery powered radio had all sorts of nonsense---"National Guard called out!!!" "Governor is hovering over cabins in Watauga County throwing out MRE's!!!" On and on it went.

The overall worst part for me was knocking over my pee bottle in the middle of the night, splashing the floor with urine. Ha ha but true.

RED-DOG
11-22-2014, 13:24
I will admit their been times that I should have stayed put, but in my mind the weather might be better on the other side of the next mountain, in some cases that's true they might be waist deep snow on one side and then on the other side they might not be any. in some cases you just have to take that chance and go, but I will ADVISE that if you wake up to deep snow and if you got the food please stay put.

Connie
11-22-2014, 15:15
I have "post-holed" and taken my turn "breaking trail".

Some people thought the downhill portion was fun, running.

Guess what? The snow hides deadfall. Break a leg! Not fun. No one broke a leg, but came close.

juma
11-22-2014, 16:45
When are you going to start leading expeditions Tipi?


I have hiked a bit and challenged myself but hiking with Tipi offers the next big adventure. What better way to learn how its done? I'm not going to rush off a PM to him but I am going to think about it. I hate sitting around home in the winter. I may have to pay the Tipi fee and go with him this winter. i have microspikes. but, I'd have to buy a tent, pack, shovel, etc.

who else is in?

Tipi Walter
11-23-2014, 09:30
You don't really need me for winter backpacking, just go to the top of the highest mountain you can find and set up camp and it will come to you. Getting up to or getting off such a mountain may be a problem after a good storm but with microspikes and a healthy cold-induced retardation you should have no problem and even may find joy etc.

peakbagger
11-23-2014, 16:40
Living in Northern NH I have 4 pairs of snowshoes, a wooden pair that I bought with paper route money darn close to 40 years ago, A pair of plastic Tubbs Katahdins, A pair of MSR Lighting Ascents and a pair of US military surplus magnesium snowshoes. Each pair has it pluses and minuses, The Tubbs and MSRs are great for trail hiking where I have to climb steep slopes and there is a high likelihood that someone has been on the trail recently so breaking deep snow is pretty rare. The military shoes are great powder shoes for breaking trail in deep snow. I can consistently go through far deeper snow than the Tubbs and MSRs. They are pretty useless on winter hiking trails as their track width is far wider than the current class of recreational shoes. This can be a significant issue as the trails in the whites turn into packed trenches and trying to hike with wider track snowshoes is difficult. This is one of the reasons why I replaced the Tubbs with MSRs. The military shoes are still available through surplus outlets, they are great but the nylon bindings that come with them are trash so they need to be retrofit with a standard binding (I used one called and Iverson binding).

The main result of this is that there are multiple types of snow and multiple reasons for using snowshoes. It would not be practical to carry powder shoes for the chance that there is 7 feet of snow. Hiking snowshoes would be better than nothing but still would be exhausting to use for any distance. Of course give it a day or so for the snow to set up and they might work well.

double d
11-23-2014, 18:10
stay home unless you go with tipi walter. Now that is funny!!!!