White gas or canister

[lsylvain]

I've scoured post after post. I'm trying to figure out at what point a white gas setup becomes "lighter/better" than a canister setup for a family of 4. I have found tons of info on alcohol vs canister in this regard, but nothing on white gas vs canister. The best info I got was that canisters are best of individuals and groups may want to consider white gas.

Figure with a family of 4 we will be cooking basically the equivalent of 3 solo hikers in terms of calories. Would a single canister stove be able to keep up with that?

[peakbagger]

I would make the move up to white gas. Cannister stoves generally have small footprints and they are difficult to balance a large pot on plus they are more subject to breezes so they are not so good out in the open. Hard to beat a whisperlight for a group. Lot cheaper to run also.

[Mags]

Ditto what peakbagger said. For large groups, a white gas stove is more efficient IMO.

Along with that, grab a bigger pot. This four quart pot is inexpensive and light for its size. (http://www.amazon.com/Country-Quart-Aluminum-Covered-Kettle/dp/B001OPHFN0) (I use it for group winter backpacking when melting snow)

More efficient than having a series of small pots.

[Slo-go'en]

Just keep in mind that a white gas stove takes some practice to get the hang of and occasional maintenance to use safely. Back in the day when these stoves were more common, I saw a lot of near disasters. Be especially careful when re-lighting the stove after it's been used and off for a little while. It's not uncommon to have some fuel leak out of seals without your noticing and having a ball of fire explode into your face when you go to relight it. Coleman "Peak One" stoves were famous for that feature! I've seen MSR whisper lite fuel bottles go up in flames too.

If your just going out for a short trip, the canister stove is safer and easier to use. For longer trips, the white gas might be better, but be sure to learn how to use it and keep the kids away from it.

[Tipi Walter]

All the big groups I see out backpacking use white gas. Here's a pic of a group from Minnesota laying out their kitchen items---water bottles and gas bottles.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2002-2004/The-64-Bag-Nights-of-2004/i-Z8Tbfpd/0/L/37%20%20Minnesota%20Group%27s%20Kitchen%20Stuff%20 at%20Naked%20Ground-L.jpg

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/The-Longest-Trip-at-23-Days/i-TTjHskT/0/L/TRIP%20102%20%20OCTOBER-NOV%202009%20111-L.jpg
Here's a group from Chattanooga using Peak 1's.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Tipi-Walter-Slickrock-Creek/i-S2dG3BW/0/L/TRIP%20144%20158-L.jpg
Boy Scouts using a canister stove.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Citico-Wilderness-Trailwork/i-TWmq2fP/0/L/TRIP%20149%20097-L.jpg
Even some old guy using his Svea 123.

To me it's all about trip length, even with a group. A short trip? Use a canister stove. A long trip? Use white gas. A butt cold winter trip at 0F or below? Always white gas.

[swisscross]

Whisperlite International is the stove I use for family, groups or cold weather.
I also use it for cycle touring as it will (I prefer not to) burn gasoline.
The new XGKII is not as good as the older version but still a bomber of a stove.

Been using my Whisperlite for 20 years. A few flare ups but nothing out of control but I am aware it could happen.
Took a few attempts to learn how to prime it correctly (not rocket science) and it has never failed me.
A true work horse of a stove.

Maintenance is a cake walk, takes a few minutes and only once every few years (obviously depends on how much you use it per year). Just check the O rings before leaving and use the provided lubricant before you leave and before you put it up for storage.

[Starchild]

You can go either way, it will make very little difference in the weight per person.

As for your direct Q, " Would a single canister stove be able to keep up with that? ", how long are you going for? How much boiled water do you need and how much cooking (simmering) will you need?

For example A Jetboil + small canister could get you 4:

Morning coffee for 2
Breakfast for 4
Dinner for 4
Hot Coco for 2
For 2 overnights with a very nice reserve.


Move up to the medium canister and that would do you for about 5 nights.

A non heat exchange stove will be about 30% less efficient, but may make the above as there is a sizable reserve (perhaps even a extra day). Simmering would tend to favor white gas more and more.

[OCDave]

Consider the MSR Whisperlite Universal. This will give you the option of experimenting with both fuels with the same stove.

I own more than a dozen stoves. The MSR Universal is the stove I grab for groups of 4 or more. I use canisters more frequently than white gas. My group camping trips are typically 3 days or less. Canisters are just more convenient for trips of that duration.

Good Luck

[Feral Bill]

All the big groups I see out backpacking use white gas. Here's a pic of a group from Minnesota laying out their kitchen items---water bottles and gas bottles.




Here's a group from Chattanooga using Peak 1's.


Boy Scouts using a canister stove.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2013-1/Citico-Wilderness-Trailwork/i-TWmq2fP/0/L/TRIP%20149%20097-L.jpg
Even some old guy using his Svea 123.

To me it's all about trip length, even with a group. A short trip? Use a canister stove. A long trip? Use white gas. A butt cold winter trip at 0F or below? Always white gas.

This old guy has been using his Svea for decades. It is light for a group and extremely reliable. Shop Ebay for older, made in Sweden example. I have cooked for four many times on mine.

[Matt65]

I have various Alcohol, cannister and White Gas stoves. Based on the family of 4 you mention I would personally take my white gas stove which is an MSR Simmerlite with the smaller 11oz bottle- image below.



You may prefer something like a Dragonfly which will actually simmer and has great pot supports for larger cookware. Have 1 person carry the fuel another carry the stove the weight is not that bad.

[bobp]

This old guy has been using his Svea for decades. It is light for a group and extremely reliable. Shop Ebay for older, made in Sweden example. I have cooked for four many times on mine.

Svea -- the choice for old guys who want to eat and don't screw around :^). I did exactly as you suggested and ended up with a stove older than I am (and I date back to the mid-60's). Just don't try to hold a conversation near one...

[Feral Bill]

Svea -- the choice for old guys who want to eat and don't screw around :^). I did exactly as you suggested and ended up with a stove older than I am (and I date back to the mid-60's). Just don't try to hold a conversation near one...
At my age I cant hear much anyway.

[atmilkman]

At my age I cant hear much anyway.
Have you tried that Quietstove burner damper or do you know anyone that has and does it really work?

[freightliner]

Before you go with one of these old fashion white gas stoves check out
Optimus Vega. I use it when I go car camping. It will hold a large pot and is stable on the ground. It's really simple to use and puts out a lot of BTUs for quick cook time. All you do is open the valve hit the starter and your cooking with fire. The website said it is a four seasons stove so it can be used anytime any year. I know I'm very happy with mine. Also canister gas doesn't go bad so it will be good as new until you use it up.

[lsylvain]

Very familiar with using white gas. Just never paid attention to how much fuel I use, just brought a full bottle of fuel and used it however. My mom is bringing the first stove I ever used down from NH this week. It was my grandfathers, I don't know the exact year yet but knowing him, it was probably in the 50's. I have never liked canister stoves myself, but when I see a stove that weighs 3 oz it makes a guy think.

This will be for a section hike in 2016. The one thing I was thinking about a canister stove aside from potential weight savings, was since we will be with the kids taking frequent breaks from hiking we could cook a few smaller meals on these breaks. So instead of cooking one huge meal for everyone at night in a big pot, we could cook 3 smaller meals spaced apart by a few hours with a solo person setup and save the weight and also cut down on cooking time at the end of the day. We would probably use more fuel that way though I haven't tested that part out yet. On that same note I'm thinking in the mornings we will just do coffee/hot chocolate and hit the trail for a bit until we find a nice place to plop down and do breakfast. Currently my boys start to tucker out around 2-2.5 miles and need a break so I figure why not take advantage of those breaks to cook our meals I figure that will force me to slow down also, and give me something to do on those breaks instead of tapping my foot waiting on them, lol

I may bring my alcohol stove as backup/extra burner using it mostly for hot drinks. I really like the fact that if I fill my stove and pot up to a mark I put in them, I get perfect amount and temp water for coffee for me and the wife and hot chocolate for the boys, and all I have to do is stare at it and wait for the flame to go out. Now if I could just somehow rig a lighter up to the alarm on my watch....

[lsylvain]

You can go either way, it will make very little difference in the weight per person.

As for your direct Q, " Would a single canister stove be able to keep up with that? ", how long are you going for? How much boiled water do you need and how much cooking (simmering) will you need?

For example A Jetboil + small canister could get you 4:

Morning coffee for 2
Breakfast for 4
Dinner for 4
Hot Coco for 2
For 2 overnights with a very nice reserve.


Move up to the medium canister and that would do you for about 5 nights.

A non heat exchange stove will be about 30% less efficient, but may make the above as there is a sizable reserve (perhaps even a extra day). Simmering would tend to favor white gas more and more.

So how many canisters would we need to bring to be "safe" and not run out of fuel before we could find a new canister on the AT? Has anyone compiled a list of canister retailers along the trail? And since it really seems that canister stoves are the most popular ones out there, why is finding fuel always the big question? Just seems odd, is it a non issue and just something that is perpetuated by people dedicated to other stove types?

[Feral Bill]

Have you tried that Quietstove burner damper or do you know anyone that has and does it really work?
Too expensive

[squeezebox]

Look at the Primus Ti, a lighter version of a white gas stove than the others.
Any body's experience / opinions?

[OCDave]

...Primus Ti...opinions?

Expensive. I certainly couldn't justify those dollars.

[lsylvain]

I found one for $135 including fuel bottle that's not half bad. Does the 12oz weight on it include the fuel bottle. If so that is pretty good, if not, it is no different than MSR stoves in terms of weight.

[Traveler]

This has been perplexing for me. When I weigh the MSR Whisperlite with an 11 ounce bottle (full), I get approximately 21 - 23 ounces. When I weigh my Jetboil with a full cannister I get approximately 19 - 21 ounces. Beyond convincing me to order a new scale (nifty electronic scale coming to me as a result!), I can't see much in terms of weight savings between these two. I have not found an appreciable difference with these stoves outside of the Jetboil doesn't like cold weather and wind.

There are some lesser weight cannister fuel stoves at about 15 ounces with the small fuel container, but without the heat exchanging technology like Jetboil uses, fuel consumption will be likely be higher and more fuel is likely needed. Carrying a second cannister of fuel would mitigate any weight advantage if thats the case.

I have heard about problems with resupply and people using alcohol and cannisters, but not sure how much of a problem this is over a long distance walk versus white gas, kerosene, or unleaded gas. Isylvein had a good question, has resupply and availability of fuels ever been looked at along the AT or other long distance trails?

[colorado_rob]

This has been perplexing for me. When I weigh the MSR Whisperlite with an 11 ounce bottle (full), I get approximately 21 - 23 ounces. When I weigh my Jetboil with a full cannister I get approximately 19 - 21 ounces. Beyond convincing me to order a new scale (nifty electronic scale coming to me as a result!), I can't see much in terms of weight savings between these two. I have not found an appreciable difference with these stoves outside of the Jetboil doesn't like cold weather and wind. Maybe there are different models of Wisperlites (older, newer) but mine weighs a few ounces more than that, about 25 ounces, including: stove & pump (12.9 oz), 11oz bottle (3.5 oz empty), 10 fluid ounces of fuel (8.5 oz weight). Plus, white-gas stoves tend to get sooty and you really do need some sort of sack/case to keep other stuff clean, so add another ounce, minimum, plus I always use a wind screen with my wisperlite, 2 more ounces, so grand total of maybe 28 ounces bare minimum, whereas a JetBoil Sol Ti plus canister w/ 8 oz fuel weighs 22 ounces, a 6 ounce weight savings, not huge, but it does add up.

One point: liquid fuel stoves are not more efficient than the best canister stoves, a tad less actually on average. White gas fuel has fewer BTU's per ounce than isopropane mix. PLUS you have to use a bit of fuel every time you light a liquid fuel stove (to prime it), reducing overall fuel efficiency some more.

This all being said, because of the raw power available with a wisperlite (or other white gas stove), this is not a bad choice at all for a group of 4; you can increase the fuel efficiency a bunch by getting a heat-exchanger pot to sit on the stove. I use a 1.5L jetboil pot on my wisperlite when I do carry a wisperlite (winter only), like this:

http://www.ems.com/product/index.jsp?productId=3665541&emssrcid=PPC%3AgooPLAs%3ACampHikeCook_EquipFood&adpos=1o1&creative=50700533805&device=c&matchtype=&network=g&gclid=CPa0iZbAm8ICFc1_MgodIzQA0A

I love my wisperlite, it has served me very, vry well in the hundreds of hours I've sat next to it. But really, for 3-season use, nothing beats the simplicity, efficiency and complete ease of use than a Jetboil, at least if all you do is heat water.

[Starchild]

So how many canisters would we need to bring to be "safe" and not run out of fuel before we could find a new canister on the AT?

I only ever had one, usually small canister. For a family of 4 however perhaps the medium or 2 small would be better in sections IDK


Has anyone compiled a list of canister retailers along the trail?

AWOL's guide book does for most, if any doubts call ahead

And since it really seems that canister stoves are the most popular ones out there, why is finding fuel always the big question?
Mainly fear of not finding one, but the reality is it is easy to get and also lasts so long that you won't need to worry about getting fuel at most stops.


Just seems odd, is it a non issue and just something that is perpetuated by people dedicated to other stove types?

It is a non-issue when on the trail, you will also find many for free. But people do get concerned if they have not experienced AT life. There is also a hard core alchy stove is the best lightest way to go crowd. They also like to point out that their fuel is available everywhere, and is the most plentiful fuel on the trail, never a problem getting it etc. However they end up the ones who need it at every stop, unlike those who use canisters and can go sometimes 2-3 weeks, perhaps more without even thinking about getting more fuel.

[Kevin108]

I'm planning on using Coleman 530. It's around 3 lbs but that's with a fantastic stove, a pint of fuel, a cup, and a pot.

[Wise Old Owl]

Have you tried that Quietstove burner damper or do you know anyone that has and does it really work?

you know I thought you were kidding - much like a left handed smoke bender...

http://www.amazon.com/QUIETSTOVE%C2%AE-SILENT-OMNIFUEL-BACKPACKING-CAMPING/dp/B008129SEI

29010

[Wise Old Owl]

I'm planning on using Coleman 530. It's around 3 lbs but that's with a fantastic stove, a pint of fuel, a cup, and a pot.

For one person? na mate it back breaking I use something similar for back of car camping.

Take a peak at this....



Extremly lightweight at 45g
Power: 2600W
Material: Titanium, brass, aluminum, stainless steel
Size: Open 85 x 68.5 mm, Folded 37 x 52 mm
Designed for hiking, climbing, camping and trekking




http://www.amazon.com/Camping-Backpacking-Compact-Lightweight-Titanium/dp/B00H7NTKPE/ref=sr_1_3?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1417124216&sr=1-3&keywords=maple+fire+burner


Camping Backpacking Hiking Compact Lightweight Titanium Folding Micro Stove

by Fire-maple (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=bl_sr_sporting-goods?ie=UTF8&field-brandtextbin=Fire-maple&node=3375251)

29011There are multiple variations for one person this happens to be the smallest at the moment. Go onto Amazon and type Maple Fire stoves.

[atmilkman]

you know I thought you were kidding - much like a left handed smoke bender...

http://www.amazon.com/QUIETSTOVE%C2%AE-SILENT-OMNIFUEL-BACKPACKING-CAMPING/dp/B008129SEI

29010
Found a couple of videos about this product.
One without the damper and one with it.
The information says the camera is the same distance from the stove in both videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SXom7B6tH08

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RwouyGm_L_E

[peakbagger]

BTW, a whisperlight on white gas does not have to be particularly sooty. 95 of the soot forms during shut down of the stove. If you blow the flame out immediately after turning off the fuel valve rather than letting it run until the flame goes out it will cut down on soot significantly.

[colorado_rob]

BTW, a whisperlight on white gas does not have to be particularly sooty. 95 of the soot forms during shut down of the stove. If you blow the flame out immediately after turning off the fuel valve rather than letting it run until the flame goes out it will cut down on soot significantly.Great tip, thanks!

BTW: in the 1st 1500 miles of the AT, I had trouble getting a fresh canister only once, somewhere in VA, cannot remember exactly where (very helpful, I know, given 500 trail miles!). One location, a gas station, had canister fuel but no alcohol (heat) for some weird reason; my hiking buddy was an alchy, he used my canister stove for a couple heats.

One little twist: I never could find my favorite canister fuel brand, "Snow Peak Giga Power", along the AT. It's my favorite brand because it packs the most fuel per overall canister weight, not a huge difference though.

Lastly, I still have my trusty Svea in a box somewhere... one of these days I'll drag it out and fire it up for nostalgic reasons...

[Matt65]

Priming with hand sanitizer also seems to keep the stove cleaner than with white gas. Below are images of my MSR SimmerLite. I put about a dime size of hand sanitizer in the pan and by the time it has almost burned away, the stove is hot enough to run clean.

[rafe]

Priming with hand sanitizer also seems to keep the stove cleaner than with white gas. Below are images of my MSR SimmerLite. I put about a dime size of hand sanitizer in the pan and by the time it has almost burned away, the stove is hot enough to run clean.

That's a cool idea, I never thought of using hand sanitizer as a priming agent.

[Black Wolf]

That's a cool idea, I never thought of using hand sanitizer as a priming agent.
That is a great idea.. I have a dropper bottle I prime with, always seems I get a tad too much on the prime using the valve ... Another plus for group camping is for me anyway .. I get a better control of my heat ... They certainly burn hotter .. Almost twice the BTU's ... I think Zen Stoves did a comparison with ISO, Alkys and white gas ...