View Full Version : Are Bears the biggest danger to Backpackers on the A/T ??
brotheral
11-29-2014, 17:51
Hi ! I was talking to a few folks on FB and someone commented that he knew a few people that had done a few hundred miles on the trail.
He went on to say that, "The Biggest danger was bears. Lots of bears.." I wanted to say "I don't think so", but figured I'd check first.
What do you think ?
BrotherAL
brotheral
11-29-2014, 18:00
Hi!
I was talking to some folks on FB about backpacking on the Appalachian Trail. One commented that he knew a few people that had done a few hundred miles on the trail. He went on to say that, "The biggest danger was bears. Lots of bears." I wanted to say, "I don't think so !" but thought I'd check here first. So what do you think ??
BrotherAL
I saw 8 in 350 miles but most run off right away. They are however more aggressive In the smokies. Still had no trouble. Be smart don't cook in camp, clean up, hang food.
Slo-go'en
11-29-2014, 18:08
Only if you go to sleep with an open jar of peanut butter in your tent.
Seriously, your lucky if you even see a bear and if you do, it's usually it's rear end running away from you.
The biggest danger to a backpacker on the AT is usually themselves.
kayak karl
11-29-2014, 18:09
Biggest danger is ticks ;)
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2
takethisbread
11-29-2014, 18:21
Biggest danger for your life is other humans. There are lots of bears, I probably saw close to 20 on the 2014 thru. Other dangers include aforementioned ticks, Norovirus, unplanned pregnancy, and perhaps hypothermia.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
earlyriser26
11-29-2014, 18:32
You can easily look up all fatal bear attacks in the U.S. Since the 1930's I believe there have been fewer than a dozen in the states the A.T. crosses. Most fatal black bear attacks are from captive bears. Death by bear would not even rank in the top 100 causes of death on the trail.
imscotty
11-29-2014, 18:39
Biggest life or death dangers on the trail...?
I would guess hypothermia, lightening, falls, drowning, other people. I think bears would rank a couple hundred down on a list of the most dangerous things on the trail.
garlic08
11-29-2014, 18:52
Slips and falls are the greatest danger, going by number of actual rescues.
CrumbSnatcher
11-29-2014, 19:28
Hi ! I was talking to a few folks on FB and someone commented that he knew a few people that had done a few hundred miles on the trail.
He went on to say that, "The Biggest danger was bears. Lots of bears.." I wanted to say "I don't think so", but figured I'd check first.
What do you think ?
BrotherAL#1 running out of mountain money(toilet paper)
#2 sharing Gorp(do not let hikers with dirty hands reach into your Gorp bag)
#3 slippery logs & rocks
#4 NOT getting to the AYCE Buffet before closing time
#5 asking advice on mileage/distance from hikers coming from the opposite direction
#642 bears
Lone Wolf
11-29-2014, 19:29
Hi ! I was talking to a few folks on FB and someone commented that he knew a few people that had done a few hundred miles on the trail.
He went on to say that, "The Biggest danger was bears. Lots of bears.." I wanted to say "I don't think so", but figured I'd check first.
What do you think ?
BrotherAL
biggest danger is other humans
http://www.gatesnotes.com/Health/Most-Lethal-Animal-Mosquito-Week
World wide, mosquitoes nearly twice as deadly as humans. However, be on the alert for Sharknados!
CrumbSnatcher
11-29-2014, 19:40
thanks, i forgot Mosquitoes, and yes humans are dangerous! so plan accordingly ;-)
Slips and falls are the greatest danger, going by number of actual rescues.
That was my greatest fear. Some of the steep rock scrambles down from the mountain are several hundred feet high and those rocks can be very slippery when wet. I remembering talking to one guy in Maine who told me how he slipped and fell head first and fortunately his head hit a thick bed of moss rather then a rock. It still gave him a gash on his head though.
After that, your biggest risk is being hit by a car while hiking along or crossing a highway and just people in general near the trailheads and roads. I'm pretty sure lightning, mosquito and tick born illnesses also will outrank bears.
GoldenBear
11-29-2014, 19:58
> "The Biggest danger was bears. Lots of bears.." I wanted to say "I don't think so", but figured I'd check first.
The best place to start is here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_bear_attacks_in_North_America#Black_ bear
If someone repeats this ridiculous statement, simply ask them to name five fatalities from wild bear attacks in the U.S., east of the Mississippi River, over the last 60 years.
They won't be able to do so, simply because the number of them is THREE.
Meanwhile, the CDC reports that there were 119 fatalities from West Nile Virus in the U.S. JUST IN 2013 -- five in the states which the A.T. passes through.
http://www.cdc.gov/westnile/statsMaps/finalMapsData/data/2013WNVHumanInfectionsbyState.pdf
So which animal do you think is a bigger danger -- bears or mosquitoes?
Meanwhile, this pdf shows that an industry promoting firearm ownership "brags" that there were ONLY 600 unintentional deaths from firearms in 2011.
http://www.nssf.org/PDF/research/IIR_InjuryStatistics2013.pdf
So which mammal should you be most frightened by -- a bear or a human with a gun?
the top ten things to be worried about more than bears.
1) Falls.
2) Lightning
3) falling trees or branches.
4) Ticks
5) Cars. Closest I came to major injury or death. Also, I believe the highest cause of death on PCT.
6) Combination of Multiple minor issues such as minor injury combined with really crappy conditions.
7) Avalanches if you hike in winter conditions.
8) Steam crossings
9) Stepping on a snake.
10) Sickness from lack of hygiene on the trail, mainly an issue in the herd.
The more you are around bears the less you will fear them.
MuddyWaters
11-29-2014, 20:12
Its been said, and Im just piling on, but eastern black bears dont even make it on the danger radar of experienced AT hikers. They are overgrown raccoons.
Many new hikers ARE quite worried about them at first. Until they see the their first bear arse running away from them.
oldwetherman
11-29-2014, 20:52
1+ with what Slo-go'en said......A hikers biggest danger is themself.
saltysack
11-29-2014, 21:01
Biggest danger is banjo toting toothless rednecks....squeal boy!!!! I feel alittle safer in the woods tannin the urban jungle...don't believe me watch the news!!!!
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
saltysack
11-29-2014, 21:02
Than in
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
the top ten things to be worried about more than bears.
1) Falls.
2) Lightning
3) falling trees or branches.
4) Ticks
5) Cars. Closest I came to major injury or death. Also, I believe the highest cause of death on PCT.
6) Combination of Multiple minor issues such as minor injury combined with really crappy conditions.
7) Avalanches if you hike in winter conditions.
8) Steam crossings
9) Stepping on a snake.
10) Sickness from lack of hygiene on the trail, mainly an issue in the herd.
The more you are around bears the less you will fear them.
very good list. I would just add the previously mentioned hypothermia, which I think I would put pretty far up the list.
freightliner
11-29-2014, 21:25
The biggest danger on the Appalachian Trail is heart attack and second is hypothermia more people have died from that than anything else. The place that it occurs the most is in the White Mountain National Forest. You really got to be careful not to push yourself too hard. I have never heard of anybody being killed by a moose but boy they sure do get pissed pretty easily. I had to go and rescue somebody's snowmobile once after a moose smashed it to smithereens. He stopped to let friends catch up and the moose came out of nowhere and just went nuts on the snowmobile.
The Cleaner
11-29-2014, 21:31
The Facebook section hiker page is full of misinformation, and a lot of it from folks who have never set a foot on the trail. The best way to learn about hiking is to do some. When you are on the trail you meet other hikers and learn some useful tips from them. The AT and hikers got along very well before the internet and the thousands of trail journals,blogs and the info overload which just seems to confuse some new to backpacking.:eek:
Falling is the biggest danger. FALLING.
Five healthy young thru hikers (all many hundreds of miles into their hikes) have been killed by a complete stranger along the AT. One long distance section hiker was murdered on the AT as well a few years back, presumably by a stranger as welL
No thru hiker has ever been seriously injured by a bear on the AT much less killed, and no AT thru hiker we know of has ever died in a fall, or been killed by lightening, snakes, bees or beast.
Seeing bear is something to look forward to, not something to fear.
Dangers from bears are way down the list. Considering the AT only has black bears bears are even less of a risk. You're more likely to suffer injury from your own ignorance/incompetence/ego than bears injuring or killing you on the AT.
The #1 risk of death and injury is from GRAVITY - slips, trips, and falls.
Interesting list. http://www.backpacker.com/survival/natural-hazards/weather/natural-born-killers-top-backcountry-dangers/#bp=0/img1
Notice, and please do take heed, individual human ignorance/behavior plays a significant role in the exact level of risks each of these pose. Let me say that again as humans often over look their own behavior/outside of themselves putting the entire risk assessment blame on someone or something else as if these dangers always and entirely occur outside of human behavior. These exact dangers are heavily influenced by our own individual knowledge and wisdom or our own behavior. In short, BE SMART, BE INFORMED, ACT ACCORDINGLY, you will not have as much to fear.
fastfoxengineering
11-30-2014, 05:45
Bears are not your biggest threat. Period.
It's yourself. If you get tired, hungry, cold, dilusional, anxiety. Stop, assess your situation, adapt, and overcome it.
Furthermore, I consider myself pretty pain tolerant and work well under stressfull situation. Then...a deer tick had me feeling more vunerbale than I ever had in my entire life. I caught Lyme and was diagnose/treated quickly. But, for two days, I was worthless. It felt like the worst flu one could potentially have. Had I been on the trail when the sickness began, I'd be asking a bear for a piggyback to town.
Traveler
11-30-2014, 07:26
The Facebook section hiker page is full of misinformation, and a lot of it from folks who have never set a foot on the trail. The best way to learn about hiking is to do some. When you are on the trail you meet other hikers and learn some useful tips from them. The AT and hikers got along very well before the internet and the thousands of trail journals,blogs and the info overload which just seems to confuse some new to backpacking.:eek:
Most of popular social media is that way, long on wind, short on moving leaves.....
The Facebook section hiker page is full of misinformation, and a lot of it from folks who have never set a foot on the trail. The best way to learn about hiking is to do some. When you are on the trail you meet other hikers and learn some useful tips from them. The AT and hikers got along very well before the internet and the thousands of trail journals,blogs and the info overload which just seems to confuse some new to backpacking.:eek:
Falling is the biggest danger. FALLING.
Sane could be said if this forum...I've seen more ego and BS to shake a stick...
Biggest danger for your life is other humans. There are lots of bears, I probably saw close to 20 on the 2014 thru. Other dangers include aforementioned ticks, Norovirus, unplanned pregnancy, and perhaps hypothermia.
Unplanned Pregnancy?!?!? I've got to hike more if this is a risk!
Vasectomy means never having to say "it's mine".
Offshore
11-30-2014, 08:26
Biggest danger is ticks ;)
+1. The statistics demonstrate this, and humans do a terrible job of assessing relative risk, but I'd be lying if I said I like seeing bears on my solo hikes in NW NJ.
People may correctly quote the statistics on the number of fatal bear attacks, but I personally set the bar lower - any attack, fatal or not, is an experience to be avoided. The second issue I have with interpreting bear attack data is that over the years, the nature of the bears here in NJ has changed as development encroaches into what was formerly their territory. They've become more accustomed to humans and associate them with food sources. Bears that walk around neighborhoods eating out of trash cans and even entering homes looking for food are probably not going to respond to the normal bear encounter protocols (make noise, make yourself look bigger, etc.)
colorado_rob
11-30-2014, 09:27
the top ten things to be worried about more than bears.
1) Falls.
2) Lightning
3) falling trees or branches.
4) Ticks
5) Cars. Closest I came to major injury or death. Also, I believe the highest cause of death on PCT.
6) Combination of Multiple minor issues such as minor injury combined with really crappy conditions.
7) Avalanches if you hike in winter conditions.
8) Steam crossings
9) Stepping on a snake.
10) Sickness from lack of hygiene on the trail, mainly an issue in the herd.
The more you are around bears the less you will fear them.I would agree, great list. One item missing though: Hypothermia. I was close one time on the AT last year after 3 days of soaking rain with 40-something temps. I happened to be on a section of the trail well away from a town or any place to stop and dry out.
Odd Man Out
11-30-2014, 11:03
Here is the journal article where bear researchers published their study of all know fatalities due to Black Bear attacks from 1900-2009. I don't have access to the full text from my home computer (I have it in my office), but I seem to recall that the number of fatalities in the the AT states was 5 (now 6 with the NJ incident earlier this year). I do not think any of the these involved an AT hiker. That's 6 in 115 years! As stated above, not even a blip on the danger radar.
You can also surprise your friends with the fact that (based on these statistics) the least dangerous Black Bears are:
1) a mother bear with cubs
2) bears that are accustomed to being around people
So your instinct to reject the advice of your mis-informed friend is will founded. I would encourage you to take advantage of this opportunity to help educate the public on this issue. They obviously need it.
BIG DISCLAIMER: Be clear that all this info is based on BLACK BEARS. Grizzlies are a whole different animal.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jwmg.72/abstract;jsessionid=1E88B67BE059D35EE41A376B4CA88F FE.f04t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
PS - The "east of the Mississippi" number would be slightly higher as this would include the MI deaths (thee, I think).
Odd Man Out
11-30-2014, 11:08
Here is another great page from the North American Bear Center.
There are 16 articles in this section on Bears and Humans. All worth reading.
http://www.bear.org/website/bear-pages/black-bear/bears-a-humans.html
Old Hiker
11-30-2014, 11:43
Falling is the biggest danger. FALLING.
ONLY if you fall on a bear after tripping on a snake while swatting mosquitoes that're trying to dive-bomb Lyme disease carrying ticks on you as you try to cross a busy highway WITHOUT looking both ways in 40* weather whilst wearing only cotton in a heavy downpour as the band-aid you applied to the cut on your forehead from the falling tree branch slipped down over your eyes.
BUT: you are safe from unwanted pregnancies, as you had a vasectomy over 35+ (that long ?!?!:eek:) years ago.
AND: you haven't seen any "steams" to cross. ;)
Sarcasm the elf
11-30-2014, 11:59
Hi ! I was talking to a few folks on FB and someone commented that he knew a few people that had done a few hundred miles on the trail.
He went on to say that, "The Biggest danger was bears. Lots of bears.." I wanted to say "I don't think so", but figured I'd check first.
What do you think ?
BrotherAL
In all honesty, I would argue that getting hiking advice from facebook posts is a greater threat to your safety than bears are.
Sarcasm the elf
11-30-2014, 12:08
Here is the journal article where bear researchers published their study of all know fatalities due to Black Bear attacks from 1900-2009. I don't have access to the full text from my home computer (I have it in my office), but I seem to recall that the number of fatalities in the the AT states was 5 (now 6 with the NJ incident earlier this year). I do not think any of the these involved an AT hiker. That's 6 in 115 years! As stated above, not even a blip on the danger radar.
You can also surprise your friends with the fact that (based on these statistics) the least dangerous Black Bears are:
1) a mother bear with cubs
2) bears that are accustomed to being around people
So your instinct to reject the advice of your mis-informed friend is will founded. I would encourage you to take advantage of this opportunity to help educate the public on this issue. They obviously need it.
BIG DISCLAIMER: Be clear that all this info is based on BLACK BEARS. Grizzlies are a whole different animal.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/jwmg.72/abstract;jsessionid=1E88B67BE059D35EE41A376B4CA88F FE.f04t02?deniedAccessCustomisedMessage=&userIsAuthenticated=false
PS - The "east of the Mississippi" number would be slightly higher as this would include the MI deaths (thee, I think).
Here is another good article that addresses a lot of myths about black bear attacks:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=2&
It took me about 30+ years of hiking before I met a bear close-up on the trail, and it was exhilarating. Did not feel threatened. The most frightening that that happened to me on the trail was rousing a wild turkey from the bushes alongside the trail, in southern VA. Took a number of seconds before my heart was beating normally again. It was just so loud and unexpected.
shakey_snake
11-30-2014, 12:21
I'd put bears at maybe the 5th or 6th most dangerous animals on the trail.
1. Humans
2. Off-leash Dogs
3. Snakes
4. Moose
5a. Porcupines
5b. Bears
Odd Man Out
11-30-2014, 12:23
Here is another good article that addresses a lot of myths about black bear attacks:
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/11/science/11bears.html?_r=2&
Nice one of the major media outlets is picking this up. The article is based on the link I gave and they interviewed one of the researchers.
and yes humans are dangerous! so plan accordingly ;-)
Thats why you carry a gun. Doesn't have to be a big one just enough to do the job. a 4 shot 38 will work. they make some cool ones now that are almost all polymer or carbon fiber. There is a 38 I want that the 4 rounds weigh more than the gun. It is awesome and shoots well too.
squeezebox
11-30-2014, 13:25
Yes humans carrying a gun on the trail are extremely dangerous.
Sarcasm the elf
11-30-2014, 13:29
Yes humans carrying a gun on the trail are extremely dangerous.
Seriously, stop with your anti-gun trolling. That debate has been beaten to death on this site and all it ever accomplishes is to drive threads off topic.
Seriously, stop with your anti-gun trolling. That debate has been beaten to death on this site and all it ever accomplishes is to drive threads off topic.
More so than garyps's post to which squeezebox was replying? That could certainly be read as a pro-gun troll.
squeezebox
11-30-2014, 13:51
So don't put out a pro-gun troll and there's nothing to talk about. Like you said it's been more than beaten to death.
Sarcasm the elf
11-30-2014, 14:04
So don't put out a pro-gun troll and there's nothing to talk about. Like you said it's been more than beaten to death.
And you're completely capable of not taking the bait. This is the third or fourth derogatory comment I've seen from you on the subject and since all of those comments got deleted by the moderators, I'm fairly certain that you know you aren't accomplishing anything.
Tipi Walter
11-30-2014, 14:15
The biggest danger on the Appalachian Trail is heart attack and second is hypothermia more people have died from that than anything else. The place that it occurs the most is in the White Mountain National Forest. You really got to be careful not to push yourself too hard. I have never heard of anybody being killed by a moose but boy they sure do get pissed pretty easily. I had to go and rescue somebody's snowmobile once after a moose smashed it to smithereens. He stopped to let friends catch up and the moose came out of nowhere and just went nuts on the snowmobile.
That moose is my hero. There's nothing like having the serenity of a national forest ruined by a group of loud whining snowmobiles. The moose knew this and acted accordingly.
MuddyWaters
11-30-2014, 14:51
That moose is my hero. There's nothing like having the serenity of a national forest ruined by a group of loud whining snowmobiles. The moose knew this and acted accordingly.
Now if we could only get the wildlife in the smokies to smash the motorcycles........
Offshore
11-30-2014, 15:04
And you're completely capable of not taking the bait.
As you should have been.
Lone Wolf
11-30-2014, 15:58
Yes humans carrying a gun on the trail are extremely dangerous.
false statement
false statement
No Lone Wolf, it is true. While the long-distance section hiker (Scott Lily) was asphyxiated, at least 4 of the 5 thru hikers murdered alone the trail were killed with a gun.
Odd Man Out
11-30-2014, 21:32
Sure hope the OP got some of the useful info posted previously before the thread gets taken down due to terminal thread drift.
freightliner
12-01-2014, 00:10
That moose is my hero. There's nothing like having the serenity of a national forest ruined by a group of loud whining snowmobiles. The moose knew this and acted accordingly.
I totally agree with you I was pretty dumb I took a job managing a fishing hunting camp in Maine. I thought it would be great to have a job working in the backwoods of Maine but it turned out I didn't really care for the people. I've got practically zero time in to go hiking and finally left come spring and haven't looked back since.
MuddyWaters
12-01-2014, 00:49
No Lone Wolf, it is true. While the long-distance section hiker (Scott Lily) was asphyxiated, at least 4 of the 5 thru hikers murdered alone the trail were killed with a gun.
They werent murdered by other hikers. It is twisting facts to say that people on the trail with guns are dangerous. The dangerous ones are mentally unbalanced car campers , criminals, or locals that might be toting guns, not hikers.
Did GSMNP this year and did not see one damn bear!
August W.
12-01-2014, 09:30
I believe the most dangerous creatures in the woods are those who walk on two feet. Bears are way down the danger list, further down the list than poison ivy and yellow jackets.
They werent murdered by other hikers. It is twisting facts to say that people on the trail with guns are dangerous. The dangerous ones are mentally unbalanced car campers , criminals, or locals that might be toting guns, not hikers.
Squeezebox's quote (post #42) which LW called false, was simply this:
"Yes humans carrying a gun on the trail are extremely dangerous."
Most bears will run off as soon as they hear you, i have hiked the trail three times and i have never had a dangerous encounter with bears, i had a few come up and smell me and walk around my campsite, one time i had one climb into a shelter while i was sleeping alone, the biggest threat on the AT is HUMANS you can't trust everyone you meet out their, use your Gut instinct and common sense and you will be fine.
Traveler
12-01-2014, 11:06
That moose is my hero. There's nothing like having the serenity of a national forest ruined by a group of loud whining snowmobiles. The moose knew this and acted accordingly.
Spot on! I wonder if they can develop the same approach to ATVs....
Lone Wolf
12-01-2014, 13:36
Squeezebox's quote (post #42) which LW called false, was simply this:
"Yes humans carrying a gun on the trail are extremely dangerous."
and it's still false
Bears not a problem, Guns not a problem, humans...well there the worst....especially armed with keyboards
RUNT ''13''
biggest danger is other humans
Yes humans carrying a gun on the trail are extremely dangerous.
false statement
Lone Wolf,
If you contest that humans are the biggest danger on the trail then how could you argue that a human equipped with a lethal tool is not extremely dangerous?
I appreciate both sides of the debate but, your logic escapes me. Call me baffled.
Lone Wolf
12-01-2014, 14:25
lotsa hikers carry guns while hiking and they're not extremely dangerous
Lone Wolf
12-01-2014, 14:27
lotsa hikers carry guns while hiking and they're not extremely dangerous
and nearly 100% of hikers carry a knife which is a lethal tool. so by your logic all hikers are extremely dangerous :)
and nearly 100% of hikers carry a knife which is a lethal tool. so by your logic all hikers are extremely dangerous :)
On the contrary, I disagree that humans represent a huge risk at all. On the other hand, of all humans I would consider those with firearms to represent a higher risk than those without.
Obviously the biggest danger is armed bears.
Actually, the humans with cars are the biggest threat; both to hikers and the general population. So can we now drop the gun arguement as its derailing the thread.
Both rogue bears and rogue humans are dangerous - This is why I carry concealed.
Sarcasm the elf
12-01-2014, 15:54
Obviously the biggest danger is armed bears.
But they have the right to bear arms!:D
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself)
But they have the right to bear arms!:D
Thanks for that. I hurt myself a little from laughing.
But they have the right to bear arms!:D
(Sorry, I couldn't help myself)
i have the right to bear arms but sometimes my arms get cold and I put on sleeves.
Charliev
12-01-2014, 17:32
Ticks. A friend got lyme disease and my wife now has Rocky Mountain Spotted fever from ticks, and neither hardly ever go into the woods. Use permetherin on your clothing, these are serious diseases.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
and it's still false
We simply disagree on some of the finer point of the English language. I do get where you are coming from.
While I am in the camp and that tends to worry mostly about ticks, heart disease and diabetes, the following statistics are probably 100% accurate.
If I am off with one or two, I would welcome corrections. For example, I didn't include Joel Polsom among my total of thru hikers who have been killed by a gun, because even though he was on the AT in Georgia in the month of May (1974) I wasn't sure he was thru hiking or not.
Any any event, I believe these numbers to be true:
Number of AT thru hikers killed by stranger with an axe: 1
Number of AT thru hikers killed by criminal with a gun: 4
Number of AT thru hikers killed by a responsible/legal gun owner: 0
Number of AT long distance section hikers murdered by asphixiation: 1
Number of AT thru hikers killed by knife or blunt instrument: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed by accidental drowning: 3
Number of AT thru hikers killed (almost certainly) by unknown natural or human forces: 1
Number of AT thru hikers killed by hypothermia: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed by lightening: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed by falls: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed by heart disease on trail prior to age 45 or 50: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed (or even hurt) by bears: 0
Tuckahoe
12-01-2014, 18:59
Rick, the one question I have is why do you only include thru-hikers or long distance hikers? On the one hand I do not know if I would necessarily count someone who went a mile up to an overlook then headed back to their car, a person out for a few nights, or 20 or 30 miles should be Iincluded among such statistics.
We simply disagree on some of the finer point of the English language. I do get where you are coming from.
While I am in the camp and that tends to worry mostly about ticks, heart disease and diabetes, the following statistics are probably 100% accurate.
If I am off with one or two, I would welcome corrections. For example, I didn't include Joel Polsom among my total of thru hikers who have been killed by a gun, because even though he was on the AT in Georgia in the month of May (1974) I wasn't sure he was thru hiking or not.
Any any event, I believe these numbers to be true:
Number of AT thru hikers killed by stranger with an axe: 1
Number of AT thru hikers killed by criminal with a gun: 4
Number of AT thru hikers killed by a responsible/legal gun owner: 0
Number of AT long distance section hikers murdered by asphixiation: 1
Number of AT thru hikers killed by knife or blunt instrument: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed by accidental drowning: 3
Number of AT thru hikers killed (almost certainly) by unknown natural or human forces: 1
Number of AT thru hikers killed by hypothermia: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed by lightening: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed by falls: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed by heart disease on trail prior to age 45 or 50: 0
Number of AT thru hikers killed (or even hurt) by bears: 0
Biggest danger = yourself. Ill-prepared, mentally and/or physically. Not listening to your intuition.
And then ticks. Bears are way down my list.
SimplyMe
12-01-2014, 22:43
How about the dangers of missing your hiking experience by wearing headphones plugged into a cellphone the whole hike?
I traveled side by side with a bear and her cubs for three days. Ppl passing by saying that there were no animals to see...because they were listening to music! One guy passed me that way within minutes of my Bobcat/mountain lion sighting (I don't know which but it was a big cat
Rick, the one question I have is why do you only include thru-hikers or long distance hikers? On the one hand I do not know if I would necessarily count someone who went a mile up to an overlook then headed back to their car, a person out for a few nights, or 20 or 30 miles should be Iincluded among such statistics.
Mostly is because it is a population that interests me and I can relate to, but also because it a small enough community that these kinds of uncommon events become known.
To be honest, it is also because of a long-standing frustration I have regarding how the authorities will always put these tragedies in perspective for us. They invariably remind everyone that with 8+ million visitors to AT each year, one's chances of falling victim to a capital crime on the Trail is on par with winning the lottery.
I have a pretty good idea about how many people have ever attempted a thru hike. The fact that at least 5 of them were murdered (4 with gun) and zero (zilch, nada) were ever killed by a bear, lightning, fall, etc. cast's one's odds of mortal risks on the AT in a different light. At least to my mind.
Still all these risk remains small-- and smaller still for any hiker walking in the contemporary nobo bubble.
Possum Bill
12-02-2014, 13:54
I think the biggest risks (at least for a well-prepared and cautious backpacker) are slips/falls, stray or unleashed dogs, and crazy humans. Bears are not even on my list of concerns. Honestly, in years of backpacking the only scary incidents I've personally had were with dogs.
brotheral
12-03-2014, 14:18
I want to thank everyone for their input. This thread took some interesting turns which I enjoyed following.
I'll try to set these folks straight tactfully ! :-?
Kevin108
12-03-2014, 16:36
On the contrary, I disagree that humans represent a huge risk at all. On the other hand, of all humans I would consider those with firearms to represent a higher risk than those without.
Only to criminals.
Only to criminals.
Naive or in denial?
Kevin108
12-03-2014, 19:40
Ever consider the possibility that I'm right?
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Ever consider the possibility that I'm right?
The statisics in this country would suggest otherwise.
Kevin108
12-03-2014, 20:48
Concealed carry permit holders are one of the most law-abiding demographics there are. Only a fraction of 1% of permits are ever revoked for a criminal act. They're 6 times less likely than the average person to commit a violent offense and 14 times less likely to commit a nonviolent offense. They are roughly as law-abiding as the police themselves. Additionally, guns are used defensively 2.5 million times a year. The vast majority of the time, no shots are fired and no injury occurs to either party.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
Concealed carry permit holders ...
...are not the only gun owners.
I am not an anti-gun evangelist. I only encourage you to present a more cogent argument. Haphazard stattistics undermine your credibility.
Kevin108
12-03-2014, 21:13
My only problem with what you've said it's that you seemed to infer there was no difference between one gun owner and another. The stats were to illustrate there is a vast difference between law-abiding gun owners and criminals.
Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
That is correct, as a group, those who own or posess guns, legally or illegally, shoot more people than those who do not own or posess guns.
MuddyWaters
12-03-2014, 22:11
99.99 % of people on trail pose no risk, gun or not.
0.01% of people pose an inordinate high risk or threat, gun or not.
I was eaten by a bear in New Jersey 4 years ago, and guess what, came back as a friggin bear.
In New Jersey
What did I learn?
AT Hikers are TASTY!!!
I pulled the trigger on a 12-guage shotgun, the front door kicked in breaking the door and the door frame, blitz-attack into my residence, he had a gun in one hand, a knife in the other. Had he thought I might be the only witness in the building? I don't have to know.
Was I arrested? No.
Is that cogent?
Is OCDave OCD? I think you are "OCD" about guns.
Is that cogent?
I also think you are a forum "troll".
I have seen you in this forum, before now.
Every time, you take a thread to a no-guns advocacy.
This forum is a backpacking forum.
Is OCDave OCD? I think you are "OCD" about guns.
I also think you are a forum "troll".
I have seen you in this forum, before now.
Every time, you take a thread to a no-guns advocacy.
This forum is a backpacking forum.
OCD, Yes. About guns- No
Troll? Just because YOU don't agree with my argurement?
No Gun advocacy? I don't beleive I've broached the subject online ever before.
Backpacking is why I am here.
Just be happy...and maybe consider moving residence.
Kevin108
12-04-2014, 00:27
That is correct, as a group, those who own or posess guns, legally or illegally, shoot more people than those who do not own or posess guns.
To be fair, some people need shooting...
I did report drug processing to the police.
I did try to move.
I did move, at the first opportunity, in spite of tires spiked, and, theft of the boxes every time I packed up.
The intent, clearly, was to have me completely out of the way. That apartment building was being taken over for crime.
If I hadn't had that shotgun, I wouldn't be here, now.
troll: A "troll" takes over a thread.
Make a thread, if you like. I am already commenting.
I am not talking about backpacking, but I can tell you there are places not to backpack because of the idiots around there.
troll: A "troll" takes over a thread.
I think you are mis-charactarizing my participation in this thread. Consider rereading in its entirety.
But you win. Have a nice day.
Sarcasm the elf
12-04-2014, 09:15
Nice Doggie...
This was about a mile off the A.T., last I checked he still hasn't eaten anyone.
Bottom line! if I'm in the woods, doing my woodman thing and I come to my life's end, however it happens, it beats getting run over by a car in a city!
RUNT ''13''
Bottom line! if I'm in the woods, doing my woodman thing and I come to my life's end, however it happens, it beats getting run over by a car in a city!
RUNT ''13''
I understand the sentiment behind that way of thinking-- one should not let fear of unlikely events keep one from living life fully. There is risk in everything, after all.
That said, it is obvious that you are unfamiliar with the details surrounding the murders of the 5 AT thru hikers at shelters along the trail. If you were, you would know getting run over by a car would be much, much better.
Biggest danger is ticks ;)
Sent from my SCH-I605 using Tapatalk 2
He's right.
http://www.lymediseaseassociation.org/index.php/about-lyme/cases-stats-maps-a-graphs/1259-final-2013-lyme-disease-reported-case-numbers
I'd wear long pants if I did the AT again esp in the summer.
Now, can we cut the crap about guns on the trail? I doubt the 10x3 thread on this will change any minds. :)
freightliner
12-04-2014, 21:44
You know the more I think about it the more I know you're all wrong. The biggest danger is running out of toilet paper.
Here is a poll I started regarding hikers' perceptions regarding the risk of Lyme disease.
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/62644-What-pPercentage-of-thru-hikers-that-get-Lyme/page2
I wonder what percentage actually catch it on a thru hike, and/or if any has ever tried to do a study on that.
JohnnySnook
12-04-2014, 22:10
I think the bears are the least of your worries. I would agree people, cars, wild turkey, ticks, yellow jackets, and other small creatures should looked out for.
One of my fears is spiders! Black Widows or more common the Brown Recluse! The brown recluse loves to hide in logs or other dark places like a shelter or under your bed. many are bitten while sleeping or sitting around camp fire on the log the spider lives in. Once it gets dark they come out to hunt. The wounds they cause are nasty. Just google it.
I've been bitten by myself. Yes, in sunny South Florida. Seems they have hitched rides in produce trucks and find florida quite nice. Go figure. I was bitten on my nose doing yard work somehow. Took 2 days for the venom to set in which is quite common. It really sucked. Fevers, sweats, swelling like my nose was going to explode. As my nose swelled more and more you could see the fang marks opening up. As soon as the symptoms developed I hit the emergency room. They were freaking out as a bite near your eyes or nasal passages opens a direct route for the venom to get into your brain and is very dangerous. Well after many many IV's, antibiotics, and painkillers all I had to look forward to was how much of my nose I would lose. Luckily I didn't lose much. I was very careful not to touch it no matter how much it itched and finally the giant black scab fell off. I got really lucky!! I would hate to suffer like I did on the trail. A woman I work with just lost half her calf to being bitten by one.
Now to a funny article about the trail. Re-enforcing to look out for humans. Look out for the last two types of hikers on the AT.
Day Hkers: People who hike along the AT simply for enjoyment and just to get away from it all. These people generally have no plans for hiking the entire trail.
Thru-Hikers: People who set out to hike the entire trail in one journey. Each year several thousand people set out to hike the whole trail and only a few are successful. There is no realiable method to determine success potential in this group. Professionals, retired persons, Joe Plumber, and hobos have all managed to complete the entire trail. The only similarity amongst successful thru-hikers are masochistic tendencies.
Trail Bums: A group of people that have fallen in love with the trail mythos and are unable to function in normal civilization. Many individuals in this group claim to have hiked the AT multiple times (mostly lying). In reality they are generally worthless individuals unable to contribue to everyday society. They seek solice in a "world" comprised of free rides and minor fame. In order to support their high rolling lifestyle many of the Trail Bum species work at hardware stores and live in shacks during the winter and migrate to the trail in the Spring to take advantage of unsuspecting hikers.
Psycho Killers: Yes, there are psycho killers on the Appalachian Trail. The total number of people killed on the trail is a matter of some dispute. The Appalachian Trail Conservancy (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/) maintains an effective disimformation office (aka Ministry of Truth) that uses fancy words to bend the truth. (For example the ATC doesn't count hikers who were killed in towns while resupplying along their trip). Psycho killers aside, the ATC doesn't count rapes, assualts, or robberies either. If you are planning a hike on the AT be forewarned - that noise outside your tent might not be a cute woodland critter, it may very well be a lunatic bent on killing, raping, and robbing you (not necessarily in that order)
Read more: http://www.cracked.com/funny-3447-appalachian-trail/#ixzz3Kz8yLoQD
CrumbSnatcher
12-04-2014, 23:48
www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10152496996725267&set=vb.100267825266&type=2&theater
MuddyWaters
12-05-2014, 00:06
Only maybe 10 percent of people have a bad reaction to a brown recluse bite. They dont inhabit the majority of AT either. Ga to TN . it is quite overhyped, and they avoid people. I was bit on back of hand, and developed red spot size of a quarter, necrotic area around fang marks was maybe 3/16" at biggest, like a shallow hole., got worse for about 1.5 weeks, then started healing up. Gone in 3-4 weeks or so.
Not saying to go play with them, but like west nile virus, most arent significantly affected, but a small percentage can have life threatening reaction.
JohnnySnook
12-05-2014, 01:29
So is it safer to see a bear that might attack you or might run off? The odds are less than 1% the bear will attack you. Better odds a brown recluse bite will put you in the 10%. Yes they are quite reclusive.
They don't avoid people. They are very small shy spiders. They make very small webs and come out at night to hunt. That is why you can sit on a log for hours and the sun goes down and your bit. Having suffered a nasty nasty spider bite that could of killed me of taken my nose off and take with other that have been bit I fear them. Many children lose fingers or hands and adults suffer major damage to limbs.
I've been told by many that there are none in florida but is not true. I've killed 4 in my yard. Their webs are very different than most spiders and quite small.
Rarely does a person die from a brown recluse bite but the effects of the bite will never be forgotten. There is an anti-venom but it has to he administered with 24 hours and it usually takes 24 to 48 hours for the venom to take affect.
Here's a few pictures. Maybe I'll post mine one day but for now these look fun for those bitten.29076290772907829079
Just saying…… These look fun!
JohnnySnook
12-05-2014, 01:40
So since the ATC doesn't report robberies, rapes, and hikers killed in towns what are the real stats?
I do believe the AT is a place that is general safer than than being in a town or city.
I live in Miami. Its kind of funny with all these protest going that everyone is against the police. We hire off duty police all the time and they will not work past dark in certain areas even thought they just sit in their cars making $42 an hour..
I'm just looking forward to the trail and the bears. Its probably like diving in the bahamas with sharks when spear fishing. Except we rarely give up a speared fish. If you do the sharks come back. We dive in pairs. One spears and one fends of the sharks. It usually works. Only if the shark gets super aggressive do you give up a fish.
MuddyWaters
12-06-2014, 00:34
Double post
MuddyWaters
12-06-2014, 00:35
So is it safer to see a bear that might attack you or might run off? The odds are less than 1% the bear will attack you. Better odds a brown recluse bite will put you in the 10%. Yes they are quite reclusive.
They don't avoid people. They are very small shy spiders. They make very small webs and come out at night to hunt. That is why you can sit on a log for hours and the sun goes down and your bit. Having suffered a nasty nasty spider bite that could of killed me of taken my nose off and take with other that have been bit I fear them. Many children lose fingers or hands and adults suffer major damage to limbs.
I've been told by many that there are none in florida but is not true. I've killed 4 in my yard. Their webs are very different than most spiders and quite small.
Rarely does a person die from a brown recluse bite but the effects of the bite will never be forgotten. There is an anti-venom but it has to he administered with 24 hours and it usually takes 24 to 48 hours for the venom to take affect.
Here's a few pictures. Maybe I'll post mine one day but for now these look fun for those bitten.29076290772907829079
Just saying…… These look fun!
4? I can go find 40 in my garage at any time. They are everywhere where i live. Most people just dont notice them. They run away from people, and you are unlikely to be bit unless you sit, step, or put hand on them. Most are bitten by putting on clothing or shoe with one in it. I put my hand on one at my hunting camp.
There are other common things that under right conditions are deadly. The staph bacteria in everyones nose can get under skin and become flesh-eating sometimes, leaving horrible disfigurations.
Vibrio vulnificus can be horrible as well, that doesnt stop people from fishing in coastal waters. Most will never be affected.
Life is not risk free. One can go out and live, or sit on a sofa and pretend to.
JohnnySnook
12-06-2014, 03:15
Muddy - I'm really glad I don't live where your do. 40 in garage? How many live under your bed. One day you may be bitten by one that actually injects all of its venom into you and then we'll see what you have to say.
If your produce arrives by semi-trucks from the mid-west brown recluse spiders are often dropped off. Guess the towns near the AT don't receive these truckloads of spiders?
We are talking about the fact that bears are a huge danger. BESIDES HUMANS. Another person in FL attacked. Sad they built a sub-division over a well known bear trail. Seems living just outside of Disney World may be quite dangerous when it comes to bear encounters. One dead and many or non-fatal encounters with black bears.
Maybe the FL trail may not be that safe.
JohnnySnook
12-06-2014, 03:18
and spiders!
MuddyWaters
12-06-2014, 09:53
Muddy - I'm really glad I don't live where your do. 40 in garage? How many live under your bed. One day you may be bitten by one that actually injects all of its venom into you and then we'll see what you have to say.
We have monthly pest control service come in and spray around baseboards in house, have for 20 yrs. Pretty much stops all pest problems.
I have found 3 brown recluse in house. One came in on bag of camping gear brought in from garage, found it under it. Two others were dead along baseboards, which is where they will stay if get in.
Old Hiker
12-06-2014, 13:12
Nice Doggie...
This was about a mile off the A.T., last I checked he still hasn't eaten anyone.
See !?!?! Another unsupervised dog, running loose near the Trail - no collar, no owner in sight, just WAITING to jump on my tent or sleeping bag. :rolleyes:
<OK - picture didn't come across - before you dog lovers start blasting, go back to post #95 and check it out. >
Bigfoot86
12-06-2014, 14:06
Bears are seriously low on the list of most dangerous.
JohnnySnook
12-07-2014, 05:50
Muddy - So your garage is infested with brown recluse spiders?
Why don't you have the monthly pest control company take care of the the problem in the garage?
40 spiders at any time that you can find easily by yourself? Imagine if a professional looked in your garage. The number may double.
Yet only 3 have been found in your house?
You have been bitten by one that didn't inject venom? You still have no fear of spiders.
I truly hope you keep your backpacking gear in your house and not the garage!
Why don't you have the monthly pest control company take care of the the problem in the garage and just in and around the living quarters?
I believe just north of Disney world 3 or 4 people have bene bitten by black bears and one was killed by a ex-wildlife officer after it raided his house and wouldn't back down.
Seems the Fl trail may be more dangerous that the AT.
JohnnySnook
12-07-2014, 05:57
On a side note my dad retired to a property that is on the border of everglades national park. Certain areas close by have been raided by bears and they have caused a lot of damage.
I'm just happy that I have seen 3 Florida Panthers and about 10 bobcats just driving the roads from Miami to where he lives. Some amazing wildlife encounters even if they where quite short.
kayak karl
12-07-2014, 08:40
On the contrary, I disagree that humans represent a huge risk at all. On the other hand, of all humans I would consider those with firearms to represent a higher risk than those without.
and how do you know which one's are carrying? you will need to fear all. maybe we should just fear all road crossings and all people referred too with 3 word names ;)
0
Et tu kayak karl.
You miss my point. I do not agree that humans beings represent a significant risk to other human beings on the trail. That was the point I was emphasizing.
Let's keep the rest Backpacking focused.
Et tu kayak karl.
You miss my point. I do not agree that humans beings represent a significant risk to other human beings on the trail. That was the point I was emphasizing.
Let's keep the rest Backpacking focused.
Yes, Backpacking focused.
Imagine if 5 thru hikers had been killed by bears along the AT. This is a hypothetical, of course-- no thru hiker has ever been killed or injured by a bear.
But imagine if 5 thru hikers had been killed by a bear.
Those with perspective and wisdom might well conclude that bears on the AT still shouldn't be considered a significant risk. But would that be the end of discussion?
Or would those same people with perspective and widom look for commonalities shared by each fatal bear incident and suggest strategies to increase awareness and postpone the next one.
I think I know the answer.
Now consider the fact that 5 thru hikers have been killed by a complete stranger on the AT proper along with 1 long-distance section hiker by a party unknown and one thru hiker who simply disappeared for reasons unknown and look how different the conversation would be if each of them was confirmed to have been killed by a bear.
Sarcasm the elf
12-07-2014, 12:03
http://img2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120116160616/wikiality/images/thumb/d/da/A_bear_free_america_2012_stephen_colbert.jpg/500px-A_bear_free_america_2012_stephen_colbert.jpg
Offshore
12-07-2014, 20:09
The six day bear hunting season starts in NJ tomorrow, so we'll have both humans with guns and bears running around in the woods - something for everyone!
This train has gone off the rails into the abyss. I'm glad I got off at the station when I did. If I wanted this shart I'd be watching Real Housewives of LA. See ya.
Ground Control
12-08-2014, 10:10
Dehydration and hypothermia are the biggest real dangers, imo. Ticks, unleashed (wild?) dogs and humans come next. Bears are way on down the list of things to fear.
I noticed that AT hikers can often be categorized by those who almost never see bears, and those who see them often. I'm in the latter group, and believe it is because I both hike quietly, and take time to look around me. My last two bear sightings took place within a half mile of lifting my (loud) trekking poles. Both times I had a ~feeling~ that wildlife was around. It's a much different feeling than when you are around a predator like a large cat, or that spooky feeling that someone/thing is watching you. Bears do not set off my fear instinct the way large cats or canines do. The only black bears I've feared were ones that had become accustomed to trashcan (human) food.