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View Full Version : In My Opinion, There is Room for Improvement in Tent Research and Purchasing Dynamics



Dacian
12-03-2014, 23:57
In August I started researching tents, having not purchased one in over ten years. I thought that this process would take the better part of an evening, since I roughly knew what I wanted in a tent. It has taken the better part of many evenings over the past four months. I'm still not ready to decide on something. This process is not efficient in that there appears to be a breakdown in the market here in terms of information. I should be able to go to a non-specific-vendor web site, and enter my desired specifications and get a listing of tents (shelters) that I can buy that meet my desired features/pricing. From that point, I can further research the few tents that meet my parameters. If such a web site exists, I'd appreciate somebody telling me about it, because I've got two pages of hand-made Excel spreadsheet data on tents, and I'm not even 25% done with what the market has to offer. I just can't believe that there isn't a clearinghouse web site for people to see everything out there in one place for apples to apples comparisons. Maybe there is and I'm just too clueless to have found it, but in going through pages in these forums, I've missed it if such a database or link to it is out there. I hope it exists.

My hunch is that some tent makers don't really want all of the data out there in one place because then the bad makers (and there are several) would lose market share through a better informed market. However, consumer ignorance is never a good business strategy, and the lack of portable and reliable information on tents is causing people to make poor choices in their purchasing; or, make no purchase; or, spend many hours before making a purchase. Yet, some poor tents are expensive and popular, and some excellent tents are economical and under-purchased. In turn, this isn't good for encouraging more people to enjoy the outdoors. If this information is not compiled, then we should develop a template and crowd source the data for it so that we're not reinventing the wheel every time somebody asks, "I need a tent for such and such." Every day that I look I find a tent that I've never even heard of, and about once per week, I run across an entire tent making company that I've never heard of (usually cottage industry, but still selling potentially viable products). If Wikipedia can police its own data on everything from obscure dead languages to the estimated weight of Pluto, can't we come up with a running list of at least the basic specifications on tents that one can buy? Even if it just listed the brand, the name of the tent, the price range, the trail weight, and the accurate floor dimensions, that would be incredible. Of course, it would be even better if we could also get the number of doors, the fabric type and thickness, if it is free standing or not, the maximum ceiling height, if it is tub floor or not, interior or exterior accessible vent flaps, if that particular tent is still being made, etc. All of that on all of the available tents would make for a popular and lucrative web site.

Here is my point in a nutshell: Because of the lack of centralized information from what I can find, I have spent more time researching for my next tent than I spent researching for my last new car purchase. And every time I look, I see a post from somebody else on a web site who is doing the same research that I'm doing while going from web site to web site and trying to synthesize the data on tents/shelters. The makers, and, for a variety of reasons, the sellers, do not have a vested interest in addressing this issue. If this data isn't really in one frequently updated location, then this is a serious efficiency and market forces problem for the outdoor industry, in my opinion. If this is going to get better, it is going to need to be consumer-driven and/or entrepreneur-driven.

Connie
12-04-2014, 00:21
I haven't updated the links, but the brandnames and models listed are under 2.5 lbs.

It is something, anyway.

http://www.ultralightbackpackingonline.com/gear1b.html
and
http://www.ultralightbackpackingonline.com/shelter1a.html

Here is a list of LW single wall and double wall tents (scroll down page).

http://home.bresnan.net/~swultralight/2014_Lightweight_%20Resources_Handout.htm

Slo-go'en
12-04-2014, 00:27
How about http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Backpacking-Tent-Reviews

24 tents listed, all the specifications, details, prices, etc.

Learn how to use Google!

colorado_rob
12-04-2014, 01:31
[QUOTE=Slo-go'en;1926096]How about http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Backpacking-Tent-Reviews

24 tents listed, all the specifications, details, prices, etc.
QUOTE]That's the first site I go to these days for big gear purchases (tents, packs, sleeping bags, stoves, some clothing), seems pretty comprehensive.

jawnzee
12-04-2014, 11:27
My hunch is that some tent makers don't really want all of the data out there in one place because then the bad makers (and there are several) would lose market share through a better informed market.
:rolleyes:

There is no conspiracy. Cottage industry doesn't sell through external vendors, so a comprehensive website would not be lucrative.

Currently, small companies grow by word of mouth. The resources you have tend to be from people who have actual experience with the product. I prefer this system.

Tent purchases are personal, so a website can't make your decision for you. Long spreadsheets will be even less helpful. Find a few tents that meet your requirements and read reviews on them. Find a reviewer that has a similar hiking/camping style to you. Many reviewers will mention other products that they considered or products that they will be switching to if theirs is worn out.

swisscross
12-04-2014, 11:36
"I can further research the few tents that meet my parameters"

And they are what?
Many people here have had several different UL tents from different vendors.

DeerPath
12-04-2014, 11:52
AND THEN...... the 2015 models will be coming out soon and the search will start again.

freightliner
12-04-2014, 11:55
I agree with you 100%. I never buy anything without doing a little due diligence first. One of the things that really gets me going is places like REI and EMS they should know better to always put the weight on all there products. Probably the reason why they don't weigh the product is because they have to take it out of its packaging but it's still very important to me. And I always read all the reviews to make sure the product is what they say it is.

OCDave
12-04-2014, 12:56
Finding the perfect gear set-up is like a sport. Sifting through the bits of information gleaned from the manufacturers, on-line reviews and on forums such as Whiteblaze makes my eventual purchase all the more satisfying. Each item I add to my gear collection is like a found treasure.

Backpacker magazine can tell you what to buy but, that would deprive you the thrill of chase.

Mags
12-04-2014, 13:15
I From that point, I can further research the few tents that meet my parameters. If such a web site exists, I'd appreciate somebody telling me about it, because I've got two pages of hand-made Excel spreadsheet data on tents, and I'm not even 25% done with what the market has to offer. I just can't believe that there isn't a clearinghouse web site for people to see everything out there in one place for apples to apples comparisons. Maybe there is and I'm just too clueless to have found it, but in going through pages in these forums, I've missed it if such a database or link to it is out there. I hope it exists.



1. I am not being sarcastic when I say this, but learn to sew. You would not be the first person who accidentally started their own gear company by making gear that fits their specific needs. Seriously. There is a large learning curve from what I understand, but works beautifully for some people.

Since I make do with gear that is 80-90% of my specs, not lucrative for me to sew my own gear. May be for you?

2. The other thing to look into is that since you've accumulated all these specs, is to maybe share it? A wordpress.com site is easy to stand up and free (as one example). May be a good resource for others?

jawnzee
12-04-2014, 13:19
"I can further research the few tents that meet my parameters"

And they are what?
Many people here have had several different UL tents from different vendors.

My parameters? Start off with fitting my 6'3" body, bug protection, easy set up. The TT Moment has a really fast set up and is a strong contender, but cuben fiber seems like the ideal tent material, being significantly lighter and I can rub against the single wall without getting wet. Not requiring a separate pole seems to bring good weight savings as well. So I refine my criteria to include no tent pole, cuben fiber. Price is a concern but not the main deciding factor. A brief sampling of gear manufacturers shows that Bear Paw, ZPacks, MLD, and Yama all have cuben fiber shelters to choose from. I don't want to have a separate mesh shelter to set up in addition to the tarp because I don't consider that to be an easy set up, so MLD and Yama will not suit. BearPaw is a bit cheaper than ZPacks, but ZPacks designs seem to be more widely used and refined. So I like the Hexamid Solo Plus. Use my own polycryo groundsheet, no beak, with screen, $330 and less than a pound. Decision made, good to go. No reason to take several months.

It really boils down to the paradox of choice, though. Just spend a little bit of time researching and don't worry about it so much.

Just Bill
12-04-2014, 14:00
Not many people buy tents, not many people who buy tents will ever carry them in anything but their trunk.
I spent a long time as young Scout researching gear, and eventually selling it.

I would suggest three things-
1- (mainstream) REI is as close to a clearing house as you will find for most regular tents. The Backpacker Magazine Gear guide is a good resource.
2- (Cottage) even more choices exist in this market- but to be a blunt jerk- likely if you are having a hard time selecting gear now you likely need to avoid cottage vendors.
3- Narrow it down.
Basically-
Truly freestanding tent
Semi-Freestanding tent
Trekking pole shelters
Hybrid shelters
Tarp- tents
Tarps
Bivies
Hammocks

You should be able to gut the hundreds of choices down pretty quick just on shelter type.
Solo, solo plus gear, or X? man shelter.
Then Cost and Weight will slash and burn further.
Toss out anything under $125 as junk (unless it's a tarp only)
Same for anything sold at a big box store.
Likely you only have a dozen choices.

Or just go buy a Big Agnes Copper Spur or Mountain Hardware Supermega UL- one or two person as you see fit. You'll probably be way happier and unlikely to spend anymore wasted time.

And despite what Mags said- don't make your own gear- it's horribly time consuming.

rafe
12-04-2014, 14:32
1. I am not being sarcastic when I say this, but learn to sew. You would not be the first person who accidentally started their own gear company by making gear that fits their specific needs. Seriously. There is a large learning curve from what I understand, but works beautifully for some people.

Since I make do with gear that is 80-90% of my specs, not lucrative for me to sew my own gear. May be for you?

2. The other thing to look into is that since you've accumulated all these specs, is to maybe share it? A wordpress.com site is easy to stand up and free (as one example). May be a good resource for others?

I had somewhat the same thought in mind for the OP. With all the time and effort the OP has already put in, he/she could have purchased the finest Cuben fiber and hand-sewn whatever he/she considers to be the perfect tent for his/her purpose. The only real problem these days is too many choices. For my money right now if I were to buy another backpacking tent (but I'm not) it would be something from the LightHeart Gear inventory.

The other response I had in mind was... umm, maybe you're over-thinking this problem. ;)

RED-DOG
12-04-2014, 14:50
In my opinion the perfect tent doesn't exist, you just have to get as close as you possibly can to you specifications and go with it if I get 90% from what I expect from a tent I am happy with it.

Dacian in your very long post you didn't mention what your specifications/Perimeters are, what do you expect from a tent. Have you considered a Hammock?

Connie
12-04-2014, 15:18
"potentially viable products" and cottage industry, in the same sentence.

This isn't unskilled. The "cottage industry" we discuss and consider, and use, is better than mass production.

Do what people do: list the criteria, ask for help.

The help, in a forum, is based on experience, not the opinion of a magazine reviewer "too busy" to have much experience with the products.

I started my website because of all that misinformation.

LogHiking
12-04-2014, 18:32
The problem is, the time and money involved to create such a resource is quite a large number. Considering an experienced backpacker on this forum is likely as knowledgeable as anyone when it comes to reviewing tents, ask yourself this, could you do it? What would it take?

First is the web development aspect, which would be considerably more expensive than a simple word press most people use because it needs to have thousands of data points (possibly 100's of thousands if it is truly comprehensive) interacting with each other and needing to be available in an instant when searched for. To create a large database where the search function works truly effectively (ever notice search functions on forums don't work very well and you are better off googling your search with the forum name after it? they don't work well because they are cheap and basic) is both time consuming and expensive. It would be pretty much impossible to build something capable of this for less than $5k, and I think most decent firms would charge over $10k. I know mine would.

After that, someone has to buy (or receive) every tent on the market and then test every tent on the market. We're talking thousands and thousands of hours. Some extremely wealthy and philanthropically geared individual who is fanatical about backpacking could do such a thing potentially, but for anyone else they will want to be compensated for their money and time. So this would HAVE to be a pay service. When you consider UL backpacking and even backpacking in general is an extremely niche market, that price would have to be quite high. Well over $100 per user in my estimation. Some people would gladly pay that, but it is very doubtful enough would to even cover a small percentage of the costs associated with the project

All of that pretty much eliminates the viability of a entrepreneurial venture creating a comprehensive list of actual specs (not listed specs). The consumer driven idea could work, but would still cost a hefty chunk of cash to build, and then the coordination of such an endeavor would need to be very comprehensive.

As I've also spent way more hours then I'd like to admit searching shelters, and feel like I continue to search a lot even after purchasing, this resource would be incredible. I'm very much with you in wanting it to exist. I just don't think logistically it could work considering the amount of time, money, and coordination of a lot of people it would need.

With all of that said, I have the web development tools at my disposal and will be thinking long and hard about some sort of solution to this problem.

Connie
12-04-2014, 18:48
I put up my website from scratch: no training self-taught cut-n-paste code, links, added video and photos.

I spend countless hours on it, as is, because to find "the good stuff" I have to look at everything: if their website translates to english I look at it.

My criteria is durability, quality, and under 2.5 lbs. backpack and under 2.5 lbs. shelter.

My criteria for clothing and gear is it useful, does it serve the purpose, is it durable, is it lightweight and low volume so it allows freedom of movement and it packs well.

The website is about UL and lightweight backpacking.

There is "no way" to make money at it without click-thrus and I do not mean "Google Ads". I mean click-thrus for the links. Use a link, a little money. Stay, look around, a little more money. Make a purchase, one merchant offerred me 40% only I do not know how to set-up click-thrus.

and so, I am in my 10th year.

I have no interest in writing up "family camping" or "prepper" uses.

If they benefit, good, but I am not looking for it.

I think the OP wants something comprehensive, like Consumer Reports for choosing gear. There is a problem with that. The editors and the reviewers do not have comprehensive knowledge and experience.

HooKooDooKu
12-04-2014, 18:54
...there appears to be a breakdown in the market here in terms of information. I should be able to go to a non-specific-vendor web site, and enter my desired specifications and get a listing of tents (shelters) that I can buy that meet my desired features/pricing....

I realize your post is pretty much just a rant...


But your rant has the air of entitlement. There is no breakdown in information. There is no breakdown in our capitalist economic system.


Collecting all this information and displaying it in an easy to search form doesn't come free. Someone has to pay for that to happen. The problem is that there apparently isn't enough of a business model for someone to spend the money to build the website you want.


I understand pretty much what you want... you want a website that is to tents what Edmonds.com is to cars. The problem is that the market for tents isn't large enough for someone to make money at building the website you want... or at least no one else seems to think so.

LogHiking
12-04-2014, 20:00
I put up my website from scratch: no training self-taught cut-n-paste code, links, added video and photos.



Yes, and you have done a very commendable job considering the self taught background and doing it out of love. With that said, to create something that can access and interact with the amount of data points you want, would require an entirely different and much more difficult coding system. I won't say it can't be self taught, I'll just say no one who doesn't build websites for a living has ever spent that kind of time self teaching themselves that process. And even then, the higher end developers who consistently churn out aesthetically pleasing, intuitive, and FUNCTIONAL websites doing things like you want were almost assuredly not self taught.

And yes HooKooDooKu I also thought of edmonds.com when I first read the op. The problem is (as you eluded to) there are over 200 million cars purchased in America alone currently, hence edmonds is in legitimate demand. Do you think there could be enough demand for something equally comprehensive for lightweight backpacking shelters?

MuddyWaters
12-04-2014, 23:30
You are looking for the best tent, and the best deal.

It doesnt exist. You are not content because you havent analyzed the all to know you got the best.

There are a bunch of good tents, just buy one and quit wasting your life shopping and analyzing. Listen to reccomendations of others that have gone before you.

July
12-04-2014, 23:41
In August I started researching tents, having not purchased one in over ten years. I thought that this process would take the better part of an evening, since I roughly knew what I wanted in a tent. It has taken the better part of many evenings over the past four months. I'm still not ready to decide on something. This process is not efficient in that there appears to be a breakdown in the market here in terms of information. I should be able to go to a non-specific-vendor web site, and enter my desired specifications and get a listing of tents (shelters) that I can buy that meet my desired features/pricing. From that point, I can further research the few tents that meet my parameters. If such a web site exists, I'd appreciate somebody telling me about it, because I've got two pages of hand-made Excel spreadsheet data on tents, and I'm not even 25% done with what the market has to offer. I just can't believe that there isn't a clearinghouse web site for people to see everything out there in one place for apples to apples comparisons. Maybe there is and I'm just too clueless to have found it, but in going through pages in these forums, I've missed it if such a database or link to it is out there. I hope it exists.

My hunch is that some tent makers don't really want all of the data out there in one place because then the bad makers (and there are several) would lose market share through a better informed market. However, consumer ignorance is never a good business strategy, and the lack of portable and reliable information on tents is causing people to make poor choices in their purchasing; or, make no purchase; or, spend many hours before making a purchase. Yet, some poor tents are expensive and popular, and some excellent tents are economical and under-purchased. In turn, this isn't good for encouraging more people to enjoy the outdoors. If this information is not compiled, then we should develop a template and crowd source the data for it so that we're not reinventing the wheel every time somebody asks, "I need a tent for such and such." Every day that I look I find a tent that I've never even heard of, and about once per week, I run across an entire tent making company that I've never heard of (usually cottage industry, but still selling potentially viable products). If Wikipedia can police its own data on everything from obscure dead languages to the estimated weight of Pluto, can't we come up with a running list of at least the basic specifications on tents that one can buy? Even if it just listed the brand, the name of the tent, the price range, the trail weight, and the accurate floor dimensions, that would be incredible. Of course, it would be even better if we could also get the number of doors, the fabric type and thickness, if it is free standing or not, the maximum ceiling height, if it is tub floor or not, interior or exterior accessible vent flaps, if that particular tent is still being made, etc. All of that on all of the available tents would make for a popular and lucrative web site.

Here is my point in a nutshell: Because of the lack of centralized information from what I can find, I have spent more time researching for my next tent than I spent researching for my last new car purchase. And every time I look, I see a post from somebody else on a web site who is doing the same research that I'm doing while going from web site to web site and trying to synthesize the data on tents/shelters. The makers, and, for a variety of reasons, the sellers, do not have a vested interest in addressing this issue. If this data isn't really in one frequently updated location, then this is a serious efficiency and market forces problem for the outdoor industry, in my opinion. If this is going to get better, it is going to need to be consumer-driven and/or entrepreneur-driven.

It's not complicated, select a Tarp, and start hikin' the AT.

T-Rx
12-05-2014, 00:11
There is no "one size fits all" concept with tents and no tent is perfect. There are a multitude of options and choices in tents and each person has different ideas or needs regarding their shelter system. You just have to find a system that works best for you. I have a single wall tarptent, a Big Agnes free standing double wall tent (copper spur UL3) and hammocks. They all have their place and purpose, or maybe I just have an obsession with buying backpacking gear!!

Franco
12-05-2014, 00:20
"but cuben fiber seems like the ideal tent material, being significantly lighter and I can rub against the single wall without getting wet"
How did you come to that conclusion ?

BTW, Backpackinglight years ago had a very extensive chart, they then gave up...
There was also a European site called Find Me a Tent listing a few dozen manufacturers including many that are not well known outsite their own country, this was updated for a couple of years then disappeared.

One problem that I have pointed out several times about choosing by number is "floor size" .
Looking at square footage only (not taking into account usable space) can eliminate tents that offer more practical space (3D)than shelters with much greater square footage (2D) do.
Same is choosing by designations like "2/3/4 p".
You could end up with a 3 person tent that has less cubic space than a 2 person version.

Franco
12-05-2014, 00:43
"My hunch is that some tent makers don't really want all of the data out there in one place because then the bad makers (and there are several) would lose market share through a better informed market."



About the only figure that comes to mind that could be used to determine "good or bad" is the published (by the manufacturer) weight against the real weight.
But here also it isn't all that simple if you look at a total (call it trail weight) that can include or not different items.
A notorious example is one manufacturer that includes 1 or 2 gram stakes.
Most buyers will never used them yet 12 of those can still be lighter than just one from another .
Some include guylines most don't.
Some will include the stuff sack , others don't .
Anyway in the end (for me) bypassing one shelter because ,say, it is a few ounces heavier than another may not be the wisest thing if all the other parameters are not taken into account.
For example : Max Weight 2 pounds.
So what happens to the 2 lbs 3 oz shelter ?
How do we know that it isn't much better overall than the 2 lbs one offered by someone else ?

Connie
12-05-2014, 01:19
Franco, I figure big-and-tall people and people 5'2" know how to look out for themselves.

They look for dimensions. They should look at the angle of the tent wall.

I could write that up. There is "no way" however I am going to be a "personal shopper" for anyone, because there are different uses and different seasons.

There are different climates.

The "best" tarp, tent, tarp tent, bivy is, finally, individual choice.

I think, all anyone can do, is point out these things: what materials? what features?

There are still people that will purchase what they saw in a movie, or, a magazine.

I rely on the movies and the magazines to ahiw me what stupid things people will be doing, for a "heads up" on rescues. I hope I don't have to rescue them. I can however "show up" at the popular-public places to lend a hand, if indicated. I like that about the big trail kick-off. I am not there. I am at the trouble spots, in the national parks.

Franco
12-05-2014, 02:01
"They should look at the angle of the tent wall."
But often don't.
Even after publishing photos of how a 90" floor can be too short for a 6' person and how an 84" one can take a 6'4" person some will still come back with "this tent has a 92" long floor..."
Add to that the often forgotten bit that a mat will rob us of more space (with non vertical walls) as well as the fact that our sleeping bags are longer and thicker than we are.

Franco
12-05-2014, 04:05
Now that I have covered some of the why not bits, I can say that I do understand the frustration.possibly the biggest problem is starting with the idea that there is a perfect product out there but really there isn't.
For the last 15 years or so I have not had less than 10 different shelters on hand.
Every year one or more would be disposed off and another or two would take its place.
Still having on top of that the opportunity to borrow and test shelters from the local shops (I had a very good relationship with several dealers) I never found one that I could say "this is it"
So learn about how different shelters behave in different situations , learn what you like/require and then trust your feelings and choose one.
BTW, after searching for several years and fiddling with many brands I ended up working with the brand that most closely represented my likes.

OK, one parting shot...
Contrary to the relatively small amount of shelters discussed here , there are hundreds of backpacking tents available out there.

HeartFire
12-05-2014, 06:57
1. I am not being sarcastic when I say this, but learn to sew.

Mags, The license plate on my car is "LRN-2-SEW"

I've been sewing all my life, I teach 4-H kids to sew, and of course own LightHeart Gear & Excelsior Sewing - the factory where we make the LightHeart Gear tents.

Judy

Ground Control
12-05-2014, 09:37
BTW, Great job for your part (tuteledge, perhaps?) on Matt Kirk's pack, Judy! Reading about his prepping, hike, and advice team made me so very North Carolina proud.

Mags, I've been looking forward to your tent reviews, as 2 recent suggestions (Kelty Cosmo & the UL UniQlo Down Parka) have worked well for me.

Thanks (Slo Go 'em) for the link to the Outdoor Gear Lab reviews. Holy smokes, that is helpful! Ruled out two of my front-runners.

Dacian
12-05-2014, 10:24
Yes, that is a good tent review resource, and yes, when you do a google search on tent reviews, that one comes up as the first hit on the list. However, the problem here is that I suspect that those 24 tents, all combined, amount to less than 1% of the tents that are out there to buy, and, in total, they probably constitute less than 2% of all tents sold in a year. I'm not faulting the outdoorgearlab folks. I read that months ago and have returned to it several times and appreciate it. But, a very in-depth tent review over, as they say, multiple years, of 24 tents, fine as that is, does not equate to a thumbnail overview of 240 tents for rapidly culling the herd.

Dacian
12-05-2014, 11:14
I appreciate everyone's input. I backpacked in the 1970s and 1980s and now that our kids are old enough for us to leave alone, my wife and I are returning to backpacking. I gave us a $1,000 budget for new gear, footwear, etc. Up to this last purchase -- the shelter issue -- everything has been fine. Backpacking gear has come quite a long way in thirty years in terms of weight, quality, and price. Given that we're reaping the benefits of sharing the loads, we're at the point where we can splurge on shelter weight. So, I have up to 4 lb. to spend on a shelter and a remaining $325. That kind of high weight, combined with winter sale prices, makes for a pretty big Venn diagram of products for us to consider. However, whatever I buy, I need to live with for at least five years. And, actually, my wife was a professional seamstress in Europe where we met, so we considered making something from scratch, but the design work for that is daunting. Thanks.

Connie
12-05-2014, 11:35
"They should look at the angle of the tent wall."
But often don't.
Even after publishing photos of how a 90" floor can be too short for a 6' person and how an 84" one can take a 6'4" person some will still come back with "this tent has a 92" long floor..."
Add to that the often forgotten bit that a mat will rob us of more space (with non vertical walls) as well as the fact that our sleeping bags are longer and thicker than we are.


Franco, I remember reading about considering sleeping mat height near the tent or tarp wall in this forum.

I think a thread, only about the most desireable tents, tarps, tarp tents, free standing tents features, for what conditions (downpour, snow, hot humid weather, for example) and how they could be improved would be a good reference for considering tents, tarps, tarp tents, and free standing tents and a reference for the people who make and sell tents, tarps, tarp tents and free standing tents, the weight and useable floor space two of the features included.

WhiteBlaze has a section for only sticking to the topic.

poopsy
12-05-2014, 11:37
I'm always surprised that more people don't take advantage of this website: http://www.tenpoundbackpack.com/ Which is pretty close to a clearing house for gear info. Unfortunately the devil is always in the details, but it is still a reasonable starting point.

Glad that Judy came in on this thread. I like to pay attention to her and Mags.

It always amazes me how much info there is on tents and cars. Great for making a decision. But there is almost no info who to go to, or where to get a good medical operation like a lobotomy. Economists call this "market failure". Sometimes confusing info is better than no info.

As a last shot, I would like to say that the best tent doesn't exist. Usually the tent we are in is what we can cope with at that moment. There is not a tent that exists that I has not disappointed me at one point or another.

Good luck in your quest,

Poopsy

Connie
12-05-2014, 11:41
Dacian, I have been having a discussion in PM about the Seek Outside, Lil Bug Out shelter.

It can be carried by more than one person, as it is a modular design. It is a base + system, either base + base or base + vestibule is the most frequent use for one or two persons.

There is a setup available, all add-on, for up to eight family or friends.

In any option, the weight and volume is lightweight or UL.

The base + base, or, base + vestibule meets your intended use and your budget, right now.

Here is a review: http://www.rokslide.com/2012-01-09-05-12-00/backpacking/273-lil-bug-out-modular-shelter-system


I first found the Seek Outside brandname for my thread Small Wood Stoves for "Hunter's Tents" in a backpacking stove forum. http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4539&start=320

That forum also has information with photos about sewing modern backpacking tent and tarp materials, and hammocks, for backpacking. It is Zelph's forum.

The Seek Outside shelters are similiar to the more familiar GoLite ShangriLa.

I am considering a Seek Outside shelter for myself.

Mags
12-05-2014, 14:29
Mags, I've been looking forward to your tent reviews, as 2 recent suggestions (Kelty Cosmo & the UL UniQlo Down Parka) have worked well for me.



Thanks. I really don't go a lot of gear reviews for specific items..more of a generalist. :) But I do like the Lunar Duo.... (http://www.pmags.com/gear-review-six-moon-designs-lunar-duo)

LogHiking
12-05-2014, 18:54
I like the idea of a dedicated all business review forum as it seems the most achievable to me. Get a group of well respected and knowledgeable members here that are willing to do it. Put a legitimate effort into it. And then send the info to all the manufacturers and request demos for testing. Maybe part of being included could be each person has to buy one most recent version of a desired backpacking tent per year to test. I like the way BPL does it, it just doesn't have the participation it needs.

Mags
12-05-2014, 19:25
http://www.backpackgeartest.org/ Not complete, but pretty good....

HeartFire
12-05-2014, 20:01
I like the idea of a dedicated all business review forum..... And then send the info to all the manufacturers and request demos for testing........
This won't work. At least not for me (LightHeart Gear) - Do you have ANY idea how many requests I get like this??? I would very soon be out of business. I cannot afford to give away gear to everyone ( or almost anyone) that want's to 'test and review' it. I get emails like this every day, most sound almost legit. If it's a really good cause, I'll offer a discount. But it's my policy - you want my gear, please buy it. That's what I'm in the business for. I do donate tents - at my discretion, and for causes I subscribe to, but they are MY choice. I also donate 1% of my profits to a charity (Jason Hunt Foundation (http://www.jwhf.org/) ) and support other charitable causes. But please, don't ask the cottage gear manufactures for free stuff, we can't afford it.

Connie
12-05-2014, 20:26
I have experience with tarps, tents, free standing tents, no tarp tents, nevertheless, I look closely at the photos, at the specifications, at the description and at the materials.

By that means, I do not list "duds"... sometimes I am only waiting to see end-user reviews, and, those are the reviews I value. So don't judge any equipment, gear, or clothing because I left it out. My links have not been updated.

There is great gear I have found, recently. There is also great gear over 2.5 lbs. I set for myself not to list, because I think a tarp, tent, tarp tent or free standing tent should be a shared load to carry, if more than 2.5 lbs. because it is no longer lightweight for one person. I had to stop looking at this, at some point. 2.5 lbs. shelter seems reasonable to me for quality modern materials and craftsmanship.

I am saying, an experienced person can do this.

There is no reason to purchase it all. There is no reason to "beg" free gear.

I would rather "see" the gear for a store, I mentioned in another thread, be a traveling UL and lightweight gear "show" that just read a list. Maybe a list, of features. Then, end-user reviewers.

But no more self-styled "experts".

LogHiking
12-05-2014, 20:26
This won't work. At least not for me (LightHeart Gear) - Do you have ANY idea how many requests I get like this??? I would very soon be out of business. I cannot afford to give away gear to everyone ( or almost anyone) that want's to 'test and review' it. I get emails like this every day, most sound almost legit. If it's a really good cause, I'll offer a discount. But it's my policy - you want my gear, please buy it. That's what I'm in the business for. I do donate tents - at my discretion, and for causes I subscribe to, but they are MY choice. I also donate 1% of my profits to a charity (Jason Hunt Foundation (http://www.jwhf.org/) ) and support other charitable causes. But please, don't ask the cottage gear manufactures for free stuff, we can't afford it.

Yes as an owner of two small business I would like to think I have at least a decent idea about the amount of requests you may get. One of ours that produces a seemingly cheap to produce product (3-D decals) and the other that provides a service (web development) and we get requests to ship free large quantities of the decals or do web development for free or for deferred payment and barter practically daily (web development). I field these request very frequently and do so politely and pleasantly because that is part of responsibility I undertook when I decided to start such a business.

With that said I agree that my suggesting dozens of random hikers asking all of the cottage manufacturers for free gear would be ludicrous, however I was not suggesting that. Although I'll admit I could have been more clear in my description. What I was suggesting is that either within this forum or within BPL or possibly a new forum created just for it where dozens of very well known, well respected, knowledgeable hikers within the community who have the time to do testing throughout the year team up and create a legitimate operation. Said operation then would as an entity, not individuals, send all of the information about what the group is doing along with a request to see if said gear manufacturers would be interested in participating. Also please note I said they would request demos as in demonstration models. They do not necessarily have to be brand new and by definition of the word demo they would be returned to the manufacturer after said testing is complete.

kayak karl
12-05-2014, 21:11
But no more self-styled "experts".

WHAT? Are you trying to end Whiteblaze.

Tuckahoe
12-05-2014, 21:43
But no more self-styled "experts".


WHAT? Are you trying to end Whiteblaze.

The man thst taught me about smithing disliked "experts" and defined them as this --
ex=has beens or former
sperts=drips under pressure
And therefore experts were former drips under pressure.

Connie
12-05-2014, 21:54
End-user reviews good; self styled experts not.

But "good one" kayak karl.

So...are we going to see another comic strip?

Does he read this forum?

Connie
12-05-2014, 21:58
LogHiking, we are the customer base: "them r us"

Franco
12-05-2014, 22:15
End -user reviews...
Well sometime that does not work either.
I give you a couple of examples.
There was a schathing review on a "tent" that its owner claimed it wasn't worth crap to keep the weather out.
What many ,if not all , would not realise is that the person mistook the "inner" (yes a mesh inner) of a Golite tent for a "tent" therefore getting wet under it the first time it rained (apparently it did not work for wind protection either)

Another more recent one was a guy that commented on just how small a certain 2 person UL (his definition) tent is.
Fortunately he added the tent he was comparing it with ( a 7 lbs almost car-camping tent) yet again ,given that his previous tent is almost unknown , (apart from nerds like me) the casual reader would dismiss his new "UL" double based on that comment.
Anyway, take note how many times you see a terrible tent set up and a bad review alongside.
I wonder why...

Dacian
12-05-2014, 22:59
Well, I found this tonight:

blackwoodspress.com/blog/12796/directory-lightweight-backpacking-shelters/

He has photos, weights, and links for 120 light shelters, which he reasonably defines as under 3 lb. In my opinion, this is a good start as opposed to finding maker web sites or going to retail sites that don't allow sorting by weight or size. The same approach could be done for other weight classes, such as the 3 lb. to 4 lb. range that my wife and I are interested in and then other classes on up. I don't think that any of this requires demos or samples; that isn't going to work. I think it requires collective input, and my hunch is that the makers are not going to want to provide that input in one location, because it is going to make them feel like we're sort of squeezing them into a commodity mentality. Instead, I think that this is going to take user input in a communally-accessible database with some kind of rights system.

Connie
12-06-2014, 11:59
Huh? Rights system?

If someone pitches an inner net, then reports the rain came in, don't you think that end-user review woukd not be taken seriously? I read end-user reviews at REI I do not take seriously. I read end-user reviews at favorite makers websites I do not take seriously.

I take responsibility for ability to discern that.

How much do you want it all handed to you? Everything? All?

For me, it is all part of knowing what is good for season, climate, and intended use.

That is a great link, there. Now, go to ZPacks for example to see what has been recently added.

I didn't do my website, not recently updated, yet, for love. I did it to stop having to rescue people who are inexperienced.

Dacian
12-06-2014, 22:41
Connie,

My apologies. By rights, I just had in mind rights for updating posted data. For example, if the trail weights for three hundred tents were listed, you wouldn't want just anybody to have the right to erase all of the data by intent or by mistake, but you would want folks to be able to post corrections when they know for certain that the trail weight for a tent is off. So, in that example, they would post their experience but not have the "right" to replace the boilerplate data -- as opposed to open access sites where anybody can just change anything at any time. However, over time, the owner of the site might give broader rights to various users.

Connie
12-06-2014, 23:04
An idea! Have a Wiki?

Have tables. Have comments.

Dacian
12-11-2014, 12:53
http://www.backpackgeartest.org/ Not complete, but pretty good....

That is very interesting. Thank you. In looking at the tent section, I wonder if the tent specification data in each of the user reviews is in a format whereby it could be put in a spreadsheet for searching. The site owner for that site has thoughtfully divided tarps from tents; perhaps they could further divide tents into a couple of weight classes, as well, as a substitute for the work that it would take to make a searchable spreadsheet.

By the way, I see that the web site in question is missing LightHeart Gear tents, which is a shame, since that brand's Duo and SoLong tents do look really interesting. I'm only 5'6'' and my wife is 5'2'', but that SoLong 6 is light yet big enough for us to take our four-legged friend or to allow us to keep our packs in the tent, which is important to us for several reasons (such as when I've got photography equipment with me and/or we're overseas).