View Full Version : Unsustainable number of starts at Sprimger oww
In another thread, Laurie P. from the ATC posted:
Fifty or more people a day leaving Springer, day after day, for weeks on end, is simply not sustainable for the A.T.--particularly the overnight sites. With the movies Wild and A Walk in the Woods in theaters this year, there will be even more.
Having never seen the impact personally, I guess I never realized just how much the number of hikers has grown, nor the fact that this kind of concentrated use is unsustainable. By the time the bubble gets up my way, the herd has been thinned out and spread out.
Readimg Laurie's post made me realize the magnitude of this problem in a way I never have before.
Apart from any environmental impact, this problem is kind of scary when you consider how few options the land managers and NPS have to deal with this.
Sooner or later they will feel forced to.
rocketsocks
12-09-2014, 06:53
If you recall (maybe this past summer) a thread ran where discussion was on an Environmental Impact study that was commissioned. Normally the first step towards change.
At the ALDHA Gathering there was the suggestion to encourage hikers to use the Benton MacKaye Trail which starts at Springer and intersects the AT 288 miles later at Davenport Gap at the north end of the Smokies.
The ATC would need to think about awarding their 2000 miler certificate regardless of which trail the hiker chose.
The Benton MacKaye Trail would certainly solve the issue for those hikers looking for a more "wilderness" experience.
rocketsocks
12-09-2014, 07:16
Than there was this article that ran in the Knoxville Daily Sun. I think thru-hikers in the near future will likely see a reservation system/permitting brought into play if self policing doesn't get it done.
http://www.knoxvilledailysun.com/news/2014/november/at-grant.html
peakbagger
12-09-2014, 07:19
I expect the PCT is going to be experiencing a major bulge in through hikers with the Wild movie coming out.
In the early years of the AT, there were two routes in Maine that both counted. Hikers could take the AT or alternative Arnold trail. Eventually the AT route was abandoned and is now under water due to construction of a hydro dam that formed Flagstaff Lake.
If you recall (maybe this past summer) a thread ran where discussion was on an Environmental Impact study that was commissioned. Normally the first step towards change.
I recall this one regarding:
In 2015, a U.S. Geological Survey researcher will lead a team from Virginia Tech and North Carolina State to create the most comprehensive data set about trail and campsite conditions in the Appalachian National Scenic Trail (http://www.nps.gov/appa/index.htm)'s more than 90-year history.
Read more: Virginia Tech professor to lead team studying hiker impact on Appalachian Trail | Kingsport Times-News (http://www.timesnews.net/article/9078619/virginia-tech-professor-to-lead-team-studying-hiker-impact-on-appalachian-trail#ixzz3LOrR14Bd) http://www.timesnews.net/article/9078619/virginia-tech-professor-to-lead-team-studying-hiker-impact-on-appalachian-trail#ixzz3LOrR14Bd
Follow us: @timesnewsonline on Twitter (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rw?id=aO-VMKcb8r3PKPab7jrHcU&u=timesnewsonline) | timesnews on Facebook (http://ec.tynt.com/b/rf?id=aO-VMKcb8r3PKPab7jrHcU&u=timesnews)]
I can easily foresee a future where:
Scientific Study by Acknowledge Expert and Lover of the Trail
+
ATC Acknnowlegement of Unsustainable Use
+
New Stress and National Focus from AWITW Movie
+
Years of Failure to Change Thru Hiker Use Patterns
+
Long-standing History of Restrictive Backcountry Permits in Western NPS Units
=
A Sad End to a Great Era(Pemitts and Restrictions)
Let's see if these movies cause a large bump in thru hiker traffic. I'm starting to doubt it. If things really get out of control, a quota system allowing X people to start each day is the obvious solution. I hate government quotas and restrictions but sometimes they are the lesser of two evils.
Anyway, I'm already planning to hike the AT southbound at some point over the next three years. I don't think that the number of southbound starts is likely to balloon like the traditional northbound starts.
rocketsocks
12-09-2014, 08:10
I recall this one regarding:
I can easily foresee a future where:
Scientific Study by Acknowledge Expert and Lover of the Trail
+
ATC Acknnowlegement of Unsustainable Use
+
New Stress and National Focus from AWITW Movie
+
Years of Failure to Change Thru Hiker Use Patterns
+
Long-standing History of Restrictive Backcountry Permits in Western NPS Units
=
A Sad End to a Great Era(Pemitts and Restrictions)
yup, that were it.
http://www.timesnews.net/article/9078619/virginia-tech-professor-to-lead-team-studying-hiker-impact-on-appalachian-trail#ixzz3LOrR14Bd
Lone Wolf
12-09-2014, 08:31
this "study" is about 15 years too late. georgia was overcrowded then. maybe the ATC shouldn't give out certificates and take pictures at the headquarters glorifying a thru-hike. don't see how they're gonna regulate folks walkin' in the woods
bamboo bob
12-09-2014, 09:45
Like climbing Mt Whitney and many NPs. Desolation Wilderness comes to mind. Require a permit and charge a fee. And police the permits. They already do that in SMNP. limit the permits to some set number per season. LOL I doubt the towns would stand for it.
Interesting discussion and always diverse and helpful points of view here. I appreciate that all of you on WhiteBlaze are so passionate about the A.T.
There will be lots more discussions like these in the coming months. Let me say at the outset that ATC has worked hard for decades to keep the A.T. is unregimented and unregulated as possible. This principle to avoid or minimize regulation is even in the A.T. Comprehensive Plan from the 80s, which many people have forgotten about, but we hold sacred. We hold it up as our guiding principle when agency partners (National Park Service, U.S. Forest Service, Baxter State Park, and many, many others) want to go that route. We've been successful the vast majority of the time.
Instead of resorting to regulation, we provide information and education on responsible use. However, we are not connecting with thru-hikers the way we used to. Today's thru-hikers rarely buy our maps and guidebooks, which was how we used to get most of our thru-hiker members. Even today, if you spend $40 on membership, you save $112 off the $323 retail price for an end-of-the year member special. But that's no longer any kind of incentive for most hikers, who mostly rely solely on one under-$20 guidebook for the entire 6 months of their hike.
Our website, with its in-depth Leave No Trace section, is not terribly popular with thru-hikers. Sites by thru-hikers for thru-hikers are just a lot more exciting and interactive, written in hiker lingo, talking about the latest gear, where you can find trail magic, etc. So after perhaps a few initial passes, hikers don't come back to ours much. We have expanded into social media in the last few years, and will be starting a blog next year. But, we must serve everyone from the day-hiker to the thru-hiker, as well as provide information to volunteers, agency partners, those who might support the A.T., and more.
We have programs like ridgerunners and caretakers to educate hikers on Leave No Trace and, in some cases, manage human waste. The program includes caretakers specifically oriented to thru-hikers at Springer Mountain and Baxter State Park, so that we can provide education and information to thru-hikers, asking them to do the right thing rather than forcing them to. (In 2014, we funded the Springer Mountain caretaker, but Baxter funded theirs).
For the first time, this year ATC will be an official provider of Leave No Trace master educator courses (an an intensive, 5-day course), so we will be in a better position to train all sorts of folks up and down the trail on how to better teach LNT specifically to A.T. audiences.
We also need and welcome help from the hiking community for ideas in how to reach hikers with Leave No Trace messages. Essentially, we do want more people and more diverse audiences to be able to enjoy the trail. If everyone practices leave no trace (and it's about a whole lot more than just not leaving trash), the trail can accommodate a whole lot more people. But, part of enabling more people to enjoy the A.T. as it was meant to be enjoyed is not a whole masses of thru-hikers starting at Springer in a narrow window of time. That is the main reason we are encouraging thru-hikes with non-traditional itineraries.
Lone Wolf, you certainly have a point about the 2,000-miler photos, certificates, and listings. In fact, we've certainly had that discussion repeatedly within ATC over the years. Many times since the '70s, have come close to abandoning the 2,000-miler recognition program. But there are lots of reasons to continue, not least among them that ATC has the only more-or-less consistently collected numbers on any A.T. user group that shows trends over a long period of time. Numbers are gathered here, numbers there, but other programs and agency funding and priorities come and go.
Bamboo Bob, sure, towns would like to see more hiker business, but not large groups in a narrow window of time. It's hard for a businesses to deal with lots of hikers for a short period of time, and then just a trickle at others. Not only that, but the larger the groups are, the rowdier they are and the more alcohol abuse tends to be an issue (I confess I have no data on that, but that's the perception).
Like climbing Mt Whitney and many NPs. Desolation Wilderness comes to mind. Require a permit and charge a fee. And police the permits. They already do that in SMNP. limit the permits to some set number per season. LOL I doubt the towns would stand for it.
Alternatively, the ATC could promote the construction of significantly more shelters and hardened campsites in the Southern Appalachians to address what they see as an unsustainable situation right now.-
That may be problematic, but to me it seem like attempts to change thru hiker behavior (start dates and alternative itineraries) are not working and doing nothing as current trends continue will lead to something far worse.
Rick,
Thanks for your suggestions, but we are not doing nothing. We'll be sharing more about the variety of strategies we will be pursing soon.
Laurie
shakey_snake
12-09-2014, 10:40
I feel like a big discouragement for flip-flopping is the extra travel expense.
If permit fees (and fines!) are assessed for NoBos, they could go towards subsidized busing of flip-floppers from Springer to Harper's Ferry. ;) Then you're solving the problem both ways.
bamboo bob
12-09-2014, 10:41
I've done the AT three times and the last time I finished in Harpers Ferry. But the first time I can't imagine not starting at Springer.
Starchild
12-09-2014, 11:00
I think we are missing a larger issue and just concentrating on fear of change. The AT and the AT experience is growing and evolving, this is not going to stop. If we cling on to the old ways with the AT yes we will hit unsustainability, but that would be due to our short sightedness.
Sustainability must evolve to allow the evolution of the AT, which is a traveling community that is growing in numbers. This community also has attracted many people (trail angels) who are also part of the AT community and could and have been always part of the solution.
The major point of the OP seems to focus on the starts per day at Springer and at numbers where the shelter sites and privi's would be overwhelmed. Would it be more manageable to move most of this early crowds to a nearby community, perhaps Suches GA if they would take them, or at least a road & trail angel accessible campsite, perhaps even work for stay could keep it clean? This would allow those who wish to camp out more of the natural experience and those who want more of the community aspect to be able to have that in a place where it is easier and perhaps cheaper to manage?
I feel the solution is working with the community.
Alternate AT routing could also be helpful, and I know some hikers who looked into IIRC the Eastern something Trail as a alternative route, but it will be a tough sell for those who desire the community aspect that the AT has become - and that's the crowd you wish to disperse.
bamboo bob
12-09-2014, 11:04
Starchild. I don't get it. What would they be doing in Suches? Hanging out until it's their turn to start?
Another Kevin
12-09-2014, 11:08
I think I'm more optimistic than most here that we could find a solution to the problem without an excess of regimentation, unless the authoritarians in our society impose the regimentation for its own sake[1]. The burden simply isn't that great. Even now, the A-T is no Half Dome in Yosemite. Thru-hikers start north over a period of a couple of months - let's say 60 days to make the arithmetic easy. Let's say that 3,000 of them start north over that time. That's fifty a day. If they make ten-mile days, that's five per mile on average. This isn't an utterly horrible crowd, particularly since everyone is moving in the same direction at more or less the same speed. You might overtake or be overtaken by another group once or twice an hour. This is not the experience of waiting in line at Disneyland!
Where the problem comes in is at the choke points, which in today's Trail are the shelters and hostels. These facilities are not scaled to the level of use that the Trail gets in a peak season. It's prohibitive, from a cost and impact perspective, to scale them that way, because they get very little use indeed away from the peak season. That's why the Lone Wolves among us say, "don't sleep at shelters and hostels: No problem!" and the more radical among them say, "tear down all the shelters and the problem will go away!" Not so: the problem of concentrated use, I believe, would merely drift to the more attractive campsites - until they become mudholes. Dispersed camping works in the very low usage areas where I generally hike (in the Catskills and Adirondacks - and frequently off trail). It begins to fail at usage levels considerably lower than what the A-T sees.
The alternative is to fortify the shelters and surrounding campgrounds to be able to handle the surges in the load. That's the sort of thing that Jeff Marion researches - trying to learn what works and what doesn't, because at this point nobody knows! Unfortunately, it appears - particularly from this thread (http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/104918-Virginia-Tech-professor-to-lead-team-studying-hiker-impact-on-Appalachian-Trail-Kin) - that such research is something that we as a society cannot afford. It is a matter of faith that any such study is a waste of the taxpayer's money and must be shut down at once. I won't argue the point too loudly; I've learnt that arguing about matters of faith never ends well. In my most pessimistic moments, I see this as the real reason we'll head down the road to regimentation. Having a paid-for permit system, and assessing fines for noncompliance, will become a revenue source, while actually studying what infrastructure might be needed to support a less regimented system will be a cost to the government and a burden on the taxpayers.
[1] The sort of people I'm talking about come out of the woodwork in droves in the comments section on every news story about a hiker or climber being rescued. "It shouldn't be allowed ! It burdens the taxpayers ! Take them for every penny they've got, and then throw them in jail !" The "idiot liberals" advance the claim that the net cost to the taxpayer is essentially zero (SAR simply does fewer hours of training if they get called out), but they must be wrong, because they're always shouted down, and in a democracy, the loudest voices are always right. The "libtards" say that the only way to save significant amounts on SAR would be to dismantle it entirely, and let toddlers or geezers who wander away from campgrounds or rural homesteads, or people who suffer falls or medical emergencies outside the city, simply fend for themselves or have their families foot the bill for a privatized search service. But that's all we can afford as a society: taking care of each other will cost money that we don't have.
bamboo bob
12-09-2014, 11:16
I guess that's some kind of pre-emptive rant.
colorado_rob
12-09-2014, 11:18
I think we are missing a larger issue and just concentrating on fear of change. The AT and the AT experience is growing and evolving, this is not going to stop. If we cling on to the old ways with the AT yes we will hit unsustainability, but that would be due to our short sightedness...Well said. "fear of change" is spot on. It is really cool how unregulated the AT is right now, but IMHO zero big deal if regulations are imposed, especially if said regulations only have to be imposed in the southern-most couple hundred miles.
Maybe I personally only say "no big deal" because I frequent lots of places, like National Parks, where regulations are already in place, and it's easy to piss and moan about them, but they are actually a good thing.
My big disappointment along the AT was the crowding in the first couple hundred miles, mostly the trashy conditions and over-crowding at the shelters and established camps. It got much better further north, of course. Seems like just concentrating on GA/NC/TN will do the trick towards a more pleasant experience for some of us that are just not used to such "crowded" trails ("crowded" in quotes, because really, the trail itself is not crowded, just the gathering spots, like shelters/camps).
In any case, seems like we have some very thoughtful folks (like LaurieP) working the issue.
Rick,
Thanks for your suggestions, but we are not doing nothing. We'll be sharing more about the variety of strategies we will be pursing soon.
Laurie
Laurie,
If that was implied by my post, please accept my sincere apologies. I have the utmost respect for the ATC and its mission and know that you and your team are fighting for both the Trail and its Hikers.
I am worried though. Mostly about how the ATC and the NPS and other parties will continue to work together to balance the need to protect the physical without screwing up the hiking experience with permits and such.
To be be clear, I have absolutely no foundation for those concerns-- I am just another voice on the Internet with a general belief that good people working in all areas of the government turn too quickly to rules and regulations to solve problems. I am glad the ATC has the hikers back, and really do know that is the case.
That said, I coming to the realization that this is super critical time on the history of the Trail, and that decisions made in the coming months and years will have a very profound impact.
I have confidence everyone in the ATC leadership will do their very best to stay true to the vision, but expect its not going to be easy.
this "study" is about 15 years too late. georgia was overcrowded then. maybe the ATC shouldn't give out certificates and take pictures at the headquarters glorifying a thru-hike. don't see how they're gonna regulate folks walkin' in the woods
I agree with this, The ATC Glorifies a AT thru-hike way too much when I did my Flip-Flop in 96 every body just wanted to experience the woods, they didn't care about the 2000 miler patch or the certificate or anything else that came with it, the same can be said for my 2006 NOBO thru but on my 2012 NOBO thru every body wanted the prestige of it every body thought they was gonna be in a movie or somebody's documentary, or they was gonna get a book wrote about them they thought they was gonna be Famous some how and that's all the people wanted.
so yeah I would suggest the ATC quit Glorifying it so much, quite taking pictures and handing out 2000 miler patches and certificates, if people didn't think they was gonna get famous by hiking the AT they would be less people hiking the AT.
Another Kevin
12-09-2014, 12:08
I guess that's some kind of pre-emptive rant.
Yeah, I think I got out on the wrong side of the bed this morning. :)
Starchild
12-09-2014, 12:11
Starchild. I don't get it. What would they be doing in Suches? Hanging out until it's their turn to start?
Envisioned, it would be a stop early on on the trail, a place to spend the night, a place were it would be easier to maintain then a camp/shelter sight in the woods that could handle larger numbers. Also envisioned to be attractive to many to stay there, sort of if I understand the term correctly, the PCT kickoff site.
I agree with this, The ATC Glorifies a AT thru-hike way too much when I did my Flip-Flop in 96 every body just wanted to experience the woods, they didn't care about the 2000 miler patch or the certificate or anything else that came with it, the same can be said for my 2006 NOBO thru but on my 2012 NOBO thru every body wanted the prestige of it every body thought they was gonna be in a movie or somebody's documentary, or they was gonna get a book wrote about them they thought they was gonna be Famous some how and that's all the people wanted.
I agree that there is perhaps too much glory associated with a traditional thru-hike and I've certainly met far too many hikers up in MA who were still on the trail only because "there's a finish line." I never understood that sort of masochism.
However I think its a bit too much of a generalization to say that everybody is in it for the glory now. Both in '11 and '13 I met many hikers of both sorts and in fact I think those that were in it to "experience the woods" were more likely to complete the whole trail although maybe not as thru-hikers.
peakbagger
12-09-2014, 12:23
I have to qualify that I section hiked the AT over a 10 plus period of time. I intentionally avoided the crowds by hiking out of synch with the majority of the Northbounders. In 2002 I did much of southern VA starting at the south end of SNP and heading south in April. We had about 4 good weeks with few folks on the trail and then the last week we started hitting the early crowds of "thru hikers". Although the majority were great folks, the minority got annoying enough that we stopped out hike in Damascus about two weeks prior to trail days.
If I had the inclination to go on I would have swapped out my bivy for a tent and started tenting which I believe would have cut down on encounters with poorly mannered wannabe thru hikers. I guess I need to modify the HYOH creed with HYOH as long as it doesn't impact others HYOH experience.
IMHO - a big driver with the traditional Northbound thruhike is the weather patterns tend to be in transition in the spring and there are many stretches of cold wet weather that drive poorly equipped folks to depend on shelters. I also think a contributing factor is buying ultralight gear and not having the experience to use it correctly and to admit when more gear is needed. I ran into a couple of folks north of Damascus that had changed out their gear at MRO for ultralight gear and were freezing one day later when cold wet weather came through.
In the meantime I am an ATC member and have ATC listed as the recipient of my AmazonSmile donations. Pretty painless
Sarcasm the elf
12-09-2014, 12:31
Admittedly this is a little tongue-in-cheek, but here's a suggestion: What if they passed a regulation requiring that everyone that plans on starting on a thru from Spring has to do a two week backpacking trip somewhere on the A.T. beforehand so that they get some experience and figure out if backpacking is right for them.
Another Kevin
12-09-2014, 12:38
Admittedly this is a little tongue-in-cheek, but here's a suggestion: What if they passed a regulation requiring that everyone that plans on starting on a thru from Spring has to do a two week backpacking trip somewhere on the A.T. beforehand so that they get some experience and figure out if backpacking is right for them.
It's a great idea, until you start getting into the problem of verifying the backpacking experience of the applicant. I can just imagine it, having to pay for a two-week backpacking trip under the supervision of a licensed instructor in order to have a piece of paper saying that I'm experienced. It'd probably create some jobs, though, for the instructors, and the bureaucrats who would handle the licensing.
Be careful what you ask for.
bamboo bob
12-09-2014, 12:43
My first day backpacking was headed north from Springer. If I had done a two week trip I likely never would have developed this backpacking disease. I might have quit while I was ahead.
When I first started section-hiking the AT, I felt somewhat unworthy to be out there with the thru-hikers. A trail maintainer in NJ reminded me that thru-hiking was not the original intent of the AT, which as I understand it was to provide an outdoor experience to the millions of people who lived near the trail. Also, I realized on reflection that I was very happy with my sections, which were a much better fit for my job, family life, and garden obsession. I highly recommend sectioning to others as well, even if it's just a trial run for a thru. New hikers would at least develop a more realistic idea of what to expect on a trek, which would help them decide whether to commit to a thru.
bat_manatee
12-09-2014, 13:03
I think its hilarious that HYOH is a such a mantra around here, yet we have a group of "Grumpy Old Guys/Gals" who insist that there is too much "glory" in a thru hike.
What happened to people doing a hike for their own reasons? Who are you to say?
This just sounds like more stereotypical whining and complaining coming from "older generations" about "younger generations" that has been happening for millennia, just applied to the AT.
Also, RED DOG, for someone who doesn't care about the prestige of a Thru, you didn't fail to mention your thrus MULTIPLE times, and you also are sporting that 2000 miler badge next to your name. I also wonder if your photo can be found in the books at Harpers Ferry? (Because you wouldn't be hypocritical at all right?)
The best way of regulating the numbers of hikers north of GSMNP would be the elimination of shelters. I suspect this alone would severely cut back both the numbers starting and the percentage of finishers. After a few nights tenting in the rain many would go home to a warm bed.
I agree with this, The ATC Glorifies a AT thru-hike way too much when I did my Flip-Flop in 96 every body just wanted to experience the woods, they didn't care about the 2000 miler patch or the certificate or anything else that came with it, the same can be said for my 2006 NOBO thru but on my 2012 NOBO thru every body wanted the prestige of it every body thought they was gonna be in a movie or somebody's documentary, or they was gonna get a book wrote about them they thought they was gonna be Famous some how and that's all the people wanted.
so yeah I would suggest the ATC quit Glorifying it so much, quite taking pictures and handing out 2000 miler patches and certificates, if people didn't think they was gonna get famous by hiking the AT they would be less people hiking the AT.
I find it hard to believe people would walk over 2,100 miles for a picture. For a finish line, sure. Won't this problem somewhat regulate itself? If the bubble moving north exhausts the supply of beds at hostels and empties store shelves at resupply points, some people are going to have a bad experience. Word will get out that hiking during peak season with the expectation of a bed at every hostel and food at every resupply won't be guaranteed. It is already impacting people's decisions for hiking. This aspect is one of the big reasons I plan to go SoBo. I don't want to start early and deal with big snowstorms. I don't want to start late and experience that nasty mid-atlantic summer. I don't want to deal with crowds of hikers at resupply points that become inconvenient. So I'm go SoBo!
I wonder if making bigger shelters and expanding hostel services will make it better, or worse, by encouraging even larger crowds.
The Cleaner
12-09-2014, 13:27
What about hiker feeds and trail magic? No one has commented on this yet and IMO it adds to the crowding problem. On the southern end around the start of the circus, there is a hiker feed or trail magic at every paved road crossing. Then you got individuals leaving unattended coolers and food at some off road locations. I'd say some hikers wouldn't make too far w/o a hot meal waiting on them at the end of a long day. Just seems like some, not all, expect all this while some just say "no" and politely move on. How many people would eat food prepared by strangers at your local shopping mall? All this is prohibited in National Parks but it's a free for all everywhere else along the trail.
Last May I was camped on the AT near Jones Meadow, where the local hiking club(The Greeneville Hiking Club) was having a hiker feed. A few hikers who came in to the camp near closing time, asked if the feed was still on, then dropped their packs and almost ran the 100 yards out to the feed site. This is just north of Hot Springs and while some may have already given up and gone home, I think that Trail Days in Damascus is where many quit or shortly after, and the party crowd has partied too hard and they leave.
Since I get to see close up use at Jerry's Cabin shelter by going in at least twice a month in the spring to clean up, I could tell that this spring many hikers stayed there and even noticed more area cleared for tent sites. I would clean up the fireplace and fire pit and find them with trash again after spending 2 nights in the surrounding area a few miles away then returning on my way out. I don't know the solution either but some kind of regulation will be needed to protect the trail from too many hikers. I think that the number of hikers is only a small part of the problem, it's the conduct of some which leads to a lesser quality wilderness experience for others.
Starchild
12-09-2014, 13:29
I find it hard to believe people would walk over 2,100 miles for a picture. For a finish line, sure. Won't this problem somewhat regulate itself? If the bubble moving north exhausts the supply of beds at hostels and empties store shelves at resupply points, some people are going to have a bad experience. Word will get out that hiking during peak season with the expectation of a bed at every hostel and food at every resupply won't be guaranteed. It is already impacting people's decisions for hiking. This aspect is one of the big reasons I plan to go SoBo. I don't want to start early and deal with big snowstorms. I don't want to start late and experience that nasty mid-atlantic summer. I don't want to deal with crowds of hikers at resupply points that become inconvenient. So I'm go SoBo!
I wonder if making bigger shelters and expanding hostel services will make it better, or worse, by encouraging even larger crowds.
Since much of the services are private I suspect, as has been the case, that the supply would increase to meet the demand. Now it may not work with a dramatic bump in hikers, but overall the hikers will draw enough services to support them.
The Cleaner
12-09-2014, 13:34
Just a note to the grammar and punctuation police, I had the my above post spaced with paragraphs but it all ran into one blob when I hit post after previewing.Just think how bad it could be w/o spell check.:eek: I'd rather use a Vista PC with a bug than a new one running Winblows 8'''
Tuckahoe
12-09-2014, 13:36
I agree with this, The ATC Glorifies a AT thru-hike way too much when I did my Flip-Flop in 96 every body just wanted to experience the woods, they didn't care about the 2000 miler patch or the certificate or anything else that came with it, the same can be said for my 2006 NOBO thru but on my 2012 NOBO thru every body wanted the prestige of it every body thought they was gonna be in a movie or somebody's documentary, or they was gonna get a book wrote about them they thought they was gonna be Famous some how and that's all the people wanted.
so yeah I would suggest the ATC quit Glorifying it so much, quite taking pictures and handing out 2000 miler patches and certificates, if people didn't think they was gonna get famous by hiking the AT they would be less people hiking the AT.
I am one that would say that the ATC does not glorify the thru-hike, especially considering what the ATC recognizes is the 2000 miler.
I believe that the so called glorification comes from the thru-hiker and the would be thru-hiker. Those who have finished the trail are an inherent clique that is in turn alluring to those that have the desire to attempt their own thru. It is the thru-hiker community itself that glorifies the thru-hike and makes the concept so attractive.
Starchild
12-09-2014, 13:52
What about hiker feeds and trail magic? No one has commented on this yet and IMO it adds to the crowding problem.
I touched on it and suggested that we use it to the betterment of the AT experience by providing a managed place to do this. I see this as a amazing positive of the thru hiking expernce, one to be encouraged, one that we need more of in everyday society. It is perhaps the greatest teaching of the AT to 'her children' the ability to receive kindness, something that blocks society from giving.
On the southern end around the start of the circus, there is a hiker feed or trail magic at every paved road crossing. Then you got individuals leaving unattended coolers and food at some off road locations.
While I have not seen much problem with this, I can see the potential for problems with wildlife and unattended food, it just doesn't seem to actually happen in my experience.
I'd say some hikers wouldn't make too far w/o a hot meal waiting on them at the end of a long day. Just seems like some, not all, expect all this while some just say "no" and politely move on. How many people would eat food prepared by strangers at your local shopping mall?
This is my point, the AT allows people (trail angels) the ability to freely give, a basic human need and desire. It teaches the thru hikers that yes it is OK to receive from strangers. To give and to receive is a beautiful thing and makes this world a nicer place. Both have followed me beyond the AT Thru, and it is a wonderful life.
All this is prohibited in National Parks but it's a free for all everywhere else along the trail.
The national parks are some of the most restrictive areas of the AT. It is great to have small sections of them to demonstrate why we do not want the rest of the AT to be like that.
Last May I was camped on the AT near Jones Meadow, where the local hiking club(The Greeneville Hiking Club) was having a hiker feed. A few hikers who came in to the camp near closing time, asked if the feed was still on, then dropped their packs and almost ran the 100 yards out to the feed site. This is just north of Hot Springs and while some may have already given up and gone home, I think that Trail Days in Damascus is where many quit or shortly after, and the party crowd has partied too hard and they leave.
Since I get to see close up use at Jerry's Cabin shelter by going in at least twice a month in the spring to clean up, I could tell that this spring many hikers stayed there and even noticed more area cleared for tent sites. I would clean up the fireplace and fire pit and find them with trash again after spending 2 nights in the surrounding area a few miles away then returning on my way out.
When I worked in the Smokies yes that would be par for the course, regulations do not alter this. But during the thru I feel I learned, and many others have learned that the most efficient way to travel is a way that you don't leave trash behind.
I don't know the solution either but some kind of regulation will be needed to protect the trail from too many hikers. I think that the number of hikers is only a small part of the problem, it's the conduct of some which leads to a lesser quality wilderness experience for others.
It seems like many have suggested more regulations, that saddens me :( They don't work, I have seen that first hand. They just make it harder for everyone.
Another Kevin
12-09-2014, 13:57
The best way of regulating the numbers of hikers north of GSMNP would be the elimination of shelters. I suspect this alone would severely cut back both the numbers starting and the percentage of finishers. After a few nights tenting in the rain many would go home to a warm bed.
Give me a nice snug tent over a leaky and drafty lean-to any day! Especially in wet or windy weather, or when the bugs are out. :)
Also, did you mean south of GSMNP? I haven't seen much of a problem with overcrowding Up North - except on summer weekends, when the clueless weekenders like me are out.
Give me a nice snug tent over a leaky and drafty lean-to any day! Especially in wet or windy weather, or when the bugs are out.
Same for me. With two exceptions, I've never come across a shelter on the AT that I even remotely was tempted to stay in overnight, rain or no rain. But they are great for eating meals and talking to other hikers.
Thinspace
12-09-2014, 14:13
Though not directly ralated, I can tell you as a fly fishereman that many long time fly fishers were not happy after "that damn movie" (A River Runs Through It) came out. It was responsible for an explosion in fly fishing, a boon for the industry that supported it but a curse for those who enjoyed what used to be solitude on the waters they fished and the resulting decline in many fisheries. I hope the same thing doesn't happen with the release of "Wild" and "A walk in the woods." It's already gotten WAY more crowded in the back country than when I started hiking in the 70's. But I guess that's just me being selfish.
Well said. "fear of change" is spot on. It is really cool how unregulated the AT is right now, but... big deal if regulations are imposed....
Maybe I personally only say "no big deal" because I frequent lots of places, like National Parks, where regulations are already in place, and it's easy to piss and moan about them, but they are actually a good thing.....
+1 Quotas and regulations are ultimately inevitable. YES, they can be a good thing! Much of what has been suggested are temporary short term solutions at best.
Getting beyond the AT, as much as I personally love the AT(you always have a fond remembrance of who you lost your long distance backpacking virginity to), spreading the backpacking usage around to other areas/trails/routes will help offset the impact. Umpteen 100's of miles of trails east of the Mississippi that could be hiked beyond the AT. For those that truly desire to backpack AT quotas will enforce greater recognition of these other trails/trail miles. This isn't going to be so well received with east coasters stuck in a east coast only backpacking mindset or on a site dedicated to AT fanatics but, indeed, lessening the fascination with the AT will help too.
Starchild
12-09-2014, 14:22
Give me a nice snug tent over a leaky and drafty lean-to any day! Especially in wet or windy weather, or when the bugs are out. :)
Yes early thru hikers do plan to tent - many are still in self sufficiency mode. I doubt that elimination fo the shelters would make any difference.
dangerdave
12-09-2014, 14:33
These stats have changed my planning a bit. I'll be relying more on mail drops for the first two months for provisions. Leaving April 1st, I'll be in the center of the bubble. If I get to lagging behind the peak just a little (which is likely), resupplying near the trail may become an issue.
I'll see how things go after most of the other folks drop out before Virginia, then reassess my supply program as needed. Regardless of the political/environmental/social/generational issues, I'm going to enjoy my journey, and take it as it comes, good or bad.
full conditions
12-09-2014, 14:40
The ATC has some really interesting alternative thru hike agendas on their website any number of which I would consider if I were planning a thru nowadays. Personally, I'd rather be Donald Trump's hair stylist than be any part the mob of folks leaving Springer between March 1 and May 1.
mankind117
12-09-2014, 14:45
I don't know what the answer to the overuse problem is on the AT but to echo dogwood I do hope that it might encourage people to try other trails in the east. For example in Pennsylvania there are probably a good 1000 miles of backpacking trails outside of the AT that are underused and quite frankly much more scenic and wild than the AT. The long term sustainability of these trails would be helped if more people used them. I find that I enjoy doing trail maintience on these because they need the TLC more than anything I have seen on the AT. The AT is amost over engineered but I suppose it needs to be with the use it sees.
Institute a $100 thru-hiking attempt stamp AND ENFORCE THE REG. If you can financially afford to attempt a thru-hike you can afford the stamp. If you really want to attempt a thru-hike you get the stamp just as if you want to drive an automobile you pay for a diver's license. In lieu of the $100 stamp you can offset it by supporting the AT through trail maintenance hrs, volunteering credits, picking up garbage, somehow giving back to/supporting hiking, etc. The stamp money goes to supporting the AT by building and maintaining campsites, garbage removal, privy maintenance, trail construction, etc.
That is a $100 AT thru-hiking stamp. Again, it will give greater consideration to other trails/routes/trail miles other than the AT - that don't have this fee.
Another Kevin
12-09-2014, 14:56
Getting beyond the AT, as much as I personally love the AT(you always have a fond remembrance of who you lost your long distance backpacking virginity to), spreading the backpacking usage around to other areas/trails/routes will help offset the impact. Umpteen 100's of miles of trails east of the Mississippi that could be hiked beyond the AT. For those that truly desire to backpack AT quotas will enforce greater recognition of these other trails/trail miles. This isn't going to be so well received with east coasters stuck in a east coast only backpacking mindset or on a site dedicated to AT fanatics but, indeed, lessening the fascination with the AT will help too.
There's plenty of other trail mileage here in the East, so I don't see what's wrong with an East-Coast mentality! On a 70-mile section (OK, an unsuccessful thru-hike attempt) of the Northville-Placid Trail, I saw, I think, eight other hikers - and I was going southbound. If I'd been going northbound like most people, I'd probably have had people a day ahead and a day behind and seen nobody. And that's a "popular" trail, with a patch for finishing it.
Next summer, one of my buddies and I are thinking of doing the fifty miles or so from Butternut Grove to Margaretsville in the Catskills - a section of the Finger Lakes Trail, plus the Dry Brook Ridge - for no better reason than the fact that the catskillmountaineer.com (http://catskillmountaineer.com/) web site has no forum posts of trip reports from anywhere in that section, and we want to fill in the blank spot. From what we can see, it's a great bit of trail, but hardly anyone ever goes there. We're not expecting a lot of company, but the trip should be a blast!
I have not the least bit of trouble finding spots to be alone.
Moreover, so far there's near zero bureaucracy. I have my free New York City watershed access permit for the Catskills, and I sign up for the free access permit at the trailhead if I'm hiking the Eastern High Peaks region of the Adirondacks, and I can pretty much come and go I please on public land in New York. Outside the state parks (the Catskill and Adirondack parks aren't State Parks, they're Wild Forests and Wilderness areas, and some other odder regulatory regions), there are also few restrictions on camping. Anywhere below 3500 feet elevation (4000 feet in the Adirondacks) and 150 feet from a trail or water source is pretty much fair game.
If the popular bits of the A-T turn into a sacrifice to tourism, I will be only a little bit sad. I'll see them as similar to Whiteface Mountain in the Adirondacks or Hunter Mountain in the Catskills - nice mountains, overrun by tourists, so that they're quite shabby, but that keeps the rest of the parks nice for those who step beyond the tourist areas. Then again, I can take a long view. I've hiked past the ruins of grand hotels in places that are well on the way back to becoming wilderness again.
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7189/7082922237_bd995a5eec.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/7082922237/)
Ruins of the Overlook Mountain House (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/7082922237/) by ke9tv (https://www.flickr.com/people/ke9tv/), on Flickr
swisscross
12-09-2014, 15:01
That is a $100 AT thru-hiking stamp. Again, it will give greater consideration to other trails/routes/trail miles other than the AT - that don't have this fee.
Many thru hikers are lured to the AT as a notch in their belt.
I would bet many will not continue hiking after their thru. How exactly will a 100 dollar stamp influence them to consider other trails?
Also a stamp is only as good as someone's word. I can here it now. No sir, I am only a section hiker.
Starchild
12-09-2014, 15:07
Institute a $100 thru-hiking attempt stamp AND ENFORCE THE REG.
Again, punish the AT thru hiker is suggested. That's all what regulations are capable of doing.
We need to encourage thru hiking as that is life changing for the betterment of all man(and women) kind.
Slo-go'en
12-09-2014, 15:13
Is it really that big a problem? Georgia and North Carolina up to the Smokies definitely take the brunt of the yearly influx of hikers, but at least the terrain is reasonably well suited to handling the numbers. If we had those kinds of numbers in NH and Maine, there would be a serious problem.
As for supplies, the stores along the trail have a good idea how much to stock up to meet the demand. If they run out of supplies, they loose money so it's in their best interests to have plenty available.
I would like to see more emphasis placed on "Pack it in, Pack it out" then "Leave no trace." I think it's easier to convey the idea of "pack it out" (if you were able to carry it in, you should be able to carry it out) then "leave no trace".
freightliner
12-09-2014, 15:17
I grew up hiking the AT in the 70s up in New England. The trails were completely overrun and ruin. The shelters couldn't be sleep in because they were unsafe and then they came out with the caretakers and everything changed. I know very well that all of you hate to paid to camp but it made all the difference in the world. It also has made a job that you have to wait years to get. Plain and simple you have to take the party out of the trail. Too many people think they can just go out there and have all the fun they want you know hike your own hike. The trail was originally made to get away from all that to become one with nature. Okay you're all going to really hate me to say this but I'm going to say it anyhow the real problem is trail days. Don't get me wrong I love trail days and look forward to going to it but that's the thing about hiking northbound getting to trail days. There also may be a thought of closing the Forest Service Rd. down so that getting on top of Springer Mountain isn't so easy. Just during the peak thru hike season I'm sure it I will slow it down a hair.
What if you push trail days a month ahead?
Lastly I have to say I think it is ludicrous to say that people are thru hiking the trail for a picture and a certificate. They are hiking it to feel proud of themselves in a world that you can't feel proud of yourself anymore.
Starchild
12-09-2014, 15:30
... The trail was originally made to get away from all that to become one with nature...
But we are part of nature and nature is part of us. Our ways of forming community differ very little from a pack of wolves or a community of penguins. We do what we can because we must (bonus pints for the youtube link). Our oneness with nature inhertantly includes us for who we are. And that is part of the HYOH mantra - be yourself.
Than there was this article that ran in the Knoxville Daily Sun.
http://www.knoxvilledailysun.com/news/2014/november/at-grant.html
The ATC press release for the $25,000 REI grant states the grant, focused on the AT in GA, NC and TN, is for "addressing litter, waste disposal, trail erosion, campsite use and backcountry facility maintenance and rehabilitation." I wonder if these resources will lead the Tennessee Eastman Hiking & Canoeing Club to revisit their "no privies" policy. For those unfamiliar, TEHCC looks after the trail and shelters between Spivey Gap, just south of Erwin, and Damascus. The popular Overmountain Shelter, in the midst of the Roan Highlands, is the only shelter in this stretch with a privy.
I hiked all of their trail section in May of 2013, during NOBO thru season, but after its peak. In the course of looking for good spots to dig cat holes when I was in the vicinity of shelters, I saw first-hand that some hikers don't always bother digging cat holes. I know there is room for honest disagreement on the best way to deal with human waste on the trail, but if lack of resources has played any part in the TEHCC's thinking on this issue, then now is a good time to reconsider. And as a side note, I want to say that I know very well that the TEHCC is working harder than any other trail club, through their aggressive trail relocations, to address the "trail erosion" aspect of trail supervision.
On an unrelated note, I think the suggestion that more self-sufficient NOBO thru-hikers consider the Benton Mackaye Trail as an alternative to the AT's southern 238 miles is a very good one when it comes to dispersing hikers on the trail. I know Sgt. Rock chose that itinerary for his attempted thru-hike a few years back.
hikernutcasey
12-09-2014, 15:52
Is it really that big a problem? Well, maybe not right this instant but the numbers continue to grow and grow with every passing year. If it isn't a problem right now, and even that's debatable, it will be before very long. The last couple of springs I have done a few sections north of the Smokies up to Roan and I can tell you the areas around the shelters looked like garbage dumps. Trash everywhere and toilet paper gardens behind the shelters, it was disgusting.
I don't have the answers but I think it is irresponsible to not begin the process of figuring out what the best approach for the future might be. I think that's what the ATC is trying to do. Start the conversation before the problem is too overwhelming to deal with.
Personally, I think if you remove the shelters in the southern states it will create even more of a problem. Education is the key I think and possible even adding shelters and privies in the first couple hundred miles. Those sites are strained and need relief. If you think about other overcrowding situations in other areas of life the answer is providing enough facilities to satisfy the number of people. I think it would be different if we were talking about a year round problem but you just have to get the herd through that first few hundred miles and then the problem disappears.
Spirit Walker
12-09-2014, 16:00
Interesting discussion. We got a glimpse of how crowded the trail has become when we did a short section in March of 2010. Despite the snowstorm that hit on our first night, there were 50 people a day starting the weekend of March 1. Very different from what I experienced on my thruhikes.
I think the suggestion that has been made several times in the past to have an AT corridor, with multiple trail options rather than a single overused trail, is a good one. The PCT has several places where alternate routes are encouraged and used by many hikers. Alternate routes are a huge part of the CDT culture as well. Only the AT discourages using alternate routes.
While the idea of getting rid of shelters is appealing in a way, they do concentrate use in ways that protect other areas. Improving the camping areas makes more sense than building bigger shelters though. If you have 50+ hikers a night heading to the same water source, only a few will actually be able to use the shelter, the rest will have to camp. The ones who are not prepared to deal with the elements will end up dropping out sooner rather than later.
If there is eventually a permit system, as seems likely, it wouldn't be the end of the world. The PCT does that well. It might be hard to enforce on the AT unless it gave advantages like free entry to GSMNP and discounts at the huts/shelters in New England. It would increase membership in the ATC, at least for the short term, and it would allow ATC to send out more LNT and bear aware type information. When most thuhikers got all their information from ATC, all that info was included in the packets, so people were at least exposed to LNT before their hikes (though even in the '80s, trash at the shelters was a problem.)
has to do a two week backpacking trip somewhere on the A.T. beforehand so that they get some experience and figure out if backpacking is right for them.
Tongue in cheek or no, doing the Long Trail in VT the year before my AT thru showed how much I truly love backpacking. Esp since there was no linear community as much as on the AT. If anything, doing the LT was a better prep for the CDT vs the AT in some ways as you are (were? That may changed) by yourself more.
I think if many future AT hikers did a two-week shake down hike (with the emphasis on hiking) the drop out rate would be less overall.
More prepared people AND more people starting who enjoy hiking all day.
My wife loves the outdoors. She's done two-week trips. But those were low-mileage/base camp style trips with her college. Doubt she'd enjoy a thru-hike.
And that's cool as there are many ways to enjoy the outdoors! And long, hiking oriented trips is just one of them.
I'd hate to make a two-week hiking trip pre-thru mandatory (impossible!) but think it is a good idea.
Many, if not most, people have no idea what it is to be natural. Andrew Shurka has tears in his eyes in a National Geographic Live special. He speaks of animal trails, over the best terrain for a trail. Then, he sees a migration trail. He realises it has been used thousands of years, that gave him a perspective.
That experience is only available in a natural environment: walking in an old growth forest, walking among the Redwood giants, sailing on salt water, etc.
Our own authentic nature responds to the natural.
Everything else, we cope or we don't cope.
I see trail maintainance as a public service. I also support Outdoor Programs, like we had at our college. Trip lists posted. Have minimum gear. Borrow gear from the Outdoor Program. If no student card, pay a fee for equipment borrowed. Sign up.
The "trip leader" posted the sign up list.
The trip leader and a few exoerienced people, who signed up, are expected to instruct and help the others.
By this means, new people learn how to read the maps, use map and compass, use GPS, learn relevant skills.
Then, the new people can plan on their own.
WhiteBlaze is helping people HYOH.
It doesn't have to be the AT.
This and finances are the main reasons I will be hiking south from Harpers Ferry to Springer in 2015 and HF to Katahdin in 2016 if everything goes to plan. I get the whole social aspect of the "Bubble" but honestly, that's not why I'm hiking. I'm looking forward to my quiet, peaceful SOBO this Spring.
So I won't be a card carrying thru hiker. Big deal.
Avoiding the bubble on the AT seems pretty easy. Do a flip flop or a southbound thru hike, which is my plan for 2016 or 17. In contrast, I cannot really think of a good way to avoid the PCT bubble next year given how difficult a southbound thru hike would be. But then that is off topic. I only mention it to point out that there are really good work arounds available for avoiding crowds on the AT, but not so much for a PCT thru hike.
rocketsocks
12-09-2014, 17:50
Is it really that big a problem? Georgia and North Carolina up to the Smokies definitely take the brunt of the yearly influx of hikers, but at least the terrain is reasonably well suited to handling the numbers. If we had those kinds of numbers in NH and Maine, there would be a serious problem.
As for supplies, the stores along the trail have a good idea how much to stock up to meet the demand. If they run out of supplies, they loose money so it's in their best interests to have plenty available.
I would like to see more emphasis placed on "Pack it in, Pack it out" then "Leave no trace." I think it's easier to convey the idea of "pack it out" (if you were able to carry it in, you should be able to carry it out) then "leave no trace".
The ATC press release for the $25,000 REI grant states the grant, focused on the AT in GA, NC and TN, is for "addressing litter, waste disposal, trail erosion, campsite use and backcountry facility maintenance and rehabilitation." I wonder if these resources will lead the Tennessee Eastman Hiking & Canoeing Club to revisit their "no privies" policy. For those unfamiliar, this trail club looks after the trail and shelters between Spivey Gap, just south of Erwin, and Damascus. The popular Overmountain Shelter, in the midst of the Roan Highlands, is the only shelter in this stretch with a privy.
I hiked all of their trail section in May of 2013, during NOBO thru season, but after its peak. In the course of looking for good spots to dig cat holes when I was in the vicinity of shelters, I saw first-hand that a fair number of thru-hikers don't always bother digging cat holes. I know there is room for honest disagreement on the best way to deal with human waste on the trail, but if lack of resources has played any part in the TEHCC's thinking on this issue, then now is a good time to reconsider. And as a side note, I want to say that I know very well that the TEHCC is working harder than any other trail club, through their aggressive trail relocations, to address the "trail erosion" aspect of trail supervision.
On an unrelated note, I think the suggestion that more self-sufficient NOBO thru-hikers consider the Benton Mackaye Trail as an alternative to the AT's southern 238 miles is a very good one when it comes to dispersing hikers on the trail. I know Sgt. Rock chose that itinerary for his attempted thru-hike a few years back.
In a nut shell this what all this is about...the study, educating, improvement of tread/trail and implementing or reintroducing a viable on-going and long over looked program of LNT leave no trace as described by Dr LNT in this thread (http://I encouragethe Whiteblaze community to take a second and deeper look at the Leave No Traceprogram’s low impact practices and to learn, practice, and promote theirwidespread use. Leave No Trace is “way more” than simply picking up your trash.You want to avoid onerous regulations or use limits and fees? Adopting the full complement of LNT practicesis an easy option for preserving the A.T. resources that we all share and love;minimizing negative impacts to vegetation, wildlife, and hiker experiences, andsustaining the treads, shelters, campsites and outdoor opportunities thatsupport our visitation. Just do it! >>).
rocketsocks
12-09-2014, 17:52
I encouragethe Whiteblaze community to take a second and deeper look at the Leave No Traceprogram’s low impact practices and to learn, practice, and promote theirwidespread use. Leave No Trace is “way more” than simply picking up your trash.You want to avoid onerous regulations or use limits and fees? Adopting the full complement of LNT practicesis an easy option for preserving the A.T. resources that we all share and love;minimizing negative impacts to vegetation, wildlife, and hiker experiences, andsustaining the treads, shelters, campsites and outdoor opportunities thatsupport our visitation. Just do it![SIZE=3][COLOR=#333333][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]
rocketsocks
12-09-2014, 17:53
I encouragethe Whiteblaze community to take a second and deeper look at the Leave No Traceprogram’s low impact practices and to learn, practice, and promote theirwidespread use. Leave No Trace is “way more” than simply picking up your trash.You want to avoid onerous regulations or use limits and fees? Adopting the full complement of LNT practicesis an easy option for preserving the A.T. resources that we all share and love;minimizing negative impacts to vegetation, wildlife, and hiker experiences, andsustaining the treads, shelters, campsites and outdoor opportunities thatsupport our visitation. Just do it![SIZE=3][COLOR=#333333][COLOR=#000000][FONT=Times New Roman]
three times a charm...this thread
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/104918-Virginia-Tech-professor-to-lead-team-studying-hiker-impact-on-Appalachian-Trail-Kin
Odd Man Out
12-09-2014, 18:17
I would not blame the ATC 2000 mile certificate as motivating thru hikes. That is awarded to anyone who finishes the trail (thru or section hiker).
I think the solution is to make the definition of a thru hike even more vague than it is now so everyone stays home and argues on-line about what is and what isn't a "real thru hike". ;-)
gpburdelljr
12-09-2014, 18:47
[QUOTE= It's already gotten WAY more crowded in the back country than when I started hiking in the 70's. But I guess that's just me being selfish.[/QUOTE]
The US population in 1970 was 203 million, and in 2010 it was 309 million.
While numbers of long trail users may be going up, overall backcountry use is declining overall. And the number of long trail hikers is a blip to the overall amount of backcountry users.
As shown in this article, (http://earlywarn.blogspot.com/2012/07/decline-of-backpacking.html) NPS statistics are a good standard as any. If similar statistics were available for USFS, BLM and state parks, I suspect there would be similar results.
The NPS report embedded in the article is no longer working, but some internet sleuthing brought up an interesting link (https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/National%20Reports/Annual%20Visitation%20Summary%20Report%20(1979%20-%20Last%20Calendar%20Year)) with some enlightening statistics.
The take away from all these stats I found?
There was a 200k+ person decline in backcountry use in 2013 vs 2000. Compare the use from 1979 vs 2013 and the difference is a 700k+ person difference As a side note, OVERALL overnight use (car camping, lodging such as huts, etc) has declined by two-million in the NPS since 1979 vs 2013. Keep in mind the country’s population in 1979 was 225 million. Now it is 316 million. In other words, adjusted for percentage of the population, the difference is rather dramatic.
Even day use is declining, overall, at national parks. (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21583689-americas-national-parks-struggle-attract-young-visitors-why-go-outside-when-you-have)
Other reports show (http://www.outdoorfoundation.org/pdf/ResearchParticipation2013.pdf) an overall increase (though I wonder about the statistics) in backpacking and overnight activities but does not take in the 90+ million person population increase between 1979 and 2012 when the report was done.
dangerdave
12-09-2014, 19:30
The "Good Old Days" is a myth. Perspectives change over time. In those good old days when there were less people on the trail, those who wanted solitude got what they wanted. Now, it's just different. Many people like the social aspects of the modern AT. Humans continue to have a greater impact on their environment as our numbers grow. The AT will be no different. The best we can do is try our best to keep our impact as low as possible.
I don't agree that we, here, need to be lectured about the benefits of LNT compliance. I would venture to say that if you are here seeking advice (no matter how opinionated), you are one of the more conscientious hikers. We hike because we love the outdoors. And that's why we practice LNT.
So, looks like I'm with Rocketsocks again (happens all the time!), in that we should all be promoters of these responsible practices, and pass on the love of the outdoors to those around us, on and off the trail. Don't just tell people...show them.
Give me a nice snug tent over a leaky and drafty lean-to any day! Especially in wet or windy weather, or when the bugs are out. :)
Also, did you mean south of GSMNP? I haven't seen much of a problem with overcrowding Up North - except on summer weekends, when the clueless weekenders like me are out.
No typos. The crowds would start in the south and thin out due to lack of shelters up north.
Tuckahoe
12-09-2014, 19:47
While numbers of long trail users may be going up, overall backcountry use is declining overall. And the number of long trail hikers is a blip to the overall amount of backcountry users.
As shown in this article, (http://earlywarn.blogspot.com/2012/07/decline-of-backpacking.html) NPS statistics are a good standard as any. If similar statistics were available for USFS, BLM and state parks, I suspect there would be similar results.
The NPS report embedded in the article is no longer working, but some internet sleuthing brought up an interesting link (https://irma.nps.gov/Stats/SSRSReports/National%20Reports/Annual%20Visitation%20Summary%20Report%20(1979%20-%20Last%20Calendar%20Year)) with some enlightening statistics.
The take away from all these stats I found?
There was a 200k+ person decline in backcountry use in 2013 vs 2000. Compare the use from 1979 vs 2013 and the difference is a 700k+ person difference As a side note, OVERALL overnight use (car camping, lodging such as huts, etc) has declined by two-million in the NPS since 1979 vs 2013. Keep in mind the country’s population in 1979 was 225 million. Now it is 316 million. In other words, adjusted for percentage of the population, the difference is rather dramatic.
Even day use is declining, overall, at national parks. (http://www.economist.com/news/united-states/21583689-americas-national-parks-struggle-attract-young-visitors-why-go-outside-when-you-have)
Other reports show (http://www.outdoorfoundation.org/pdf/ResearchParticipation2013.pdf) an overall increase (though I wonder about the statistics) in backpacking and overnight activities but does not take in the 90+ million person population increase between 1979 and 2012 when the report was done.
The "Good Old Days" is a myth. Perspectives change over time. In those good old days when there were less people on the trail, those who wanted solitude got what they wanted. Now, it's just different. Many people like the social aspects of the modern AT. Humans continue to have a greater impact on their environment as our numbers grow. The AT will be no different. The best we can do is try our best to keep our impact as low as possible.
I don't agree that we, here, need to be lectured about the benefits of LNT compliance. I would venture to say that if you are here seeking advice (no matter how opinionated), you are one of the more conscientious hikers. We hike because we love the outdoors. And that's why we practice LNT.
So, looks like I'm with Rocketsocks again (happens all the time!), in that we should all be promoters of these responsible practices, and pass on the love of the outdoors to those around us, on and off the trail. Don't just tell people...show them.
Hhhhmmmmmmm...
rocketsocks
12-09-2014, 19:48
The "Good Old Days" is a myth. Perspectives change over time. In those good old days when there were less people on the trail, those who wanted solitude got what they wanted. Now, it's just different. Many people like the social aspects of the modern AT. Humans continue to have a greater impact on their environment as our numbers grow. The AT will be no different. The best we can do is try our best to keep our impact as low as possible.
I don't agree that we, here, need to be lectured about the benefits of LNT compliance. I would venture to say that if you are here seeking advice (no matter how opinionated), you are one of the more conscientious hikers. We hike because we love the outdoors. And that's why we practice LNT.
So, looks like I'm with Rocketsocks again (happens all the time!), in that we should all be promoters of these responsible practices, and pass on the love of the outdoors to those around us, on and off the trail. Don't just tell people...show them.
don't want to give the wrong impression here, but was having some issues quoting a qoute. What I tried to quote and copy/paste was written by Dr. LNT who is also one of the folks doing the study. Just wasn't sure to which you were referring...so.
Is it really that big a problem? Georgia and North Carolina up to the Smokies definitely take the brunt of the yearly influx of hikers, but at least the terrain is reasonably well suited to handling the numbers.
I worry more about the solution than the problem.
But to get a good one, you can't deny there is one.
Night Train
12-09-2014, 20:19
At the ALDHA Gathering there was the suggestion to encourage hikers to use the Benton MacKaye Trail which starts at Springer and intersects the AT 288 miles later at Davenport Gap at the north end of the Smokies.
The ATC would need to think about awarding their 2000 miler certificate regardless of which trail the hiker chose.
The Benton MacKaye Trail would certainly solve the issue for those hikers looking for a more "wilderness" experience.
Excellent option, if needed.
Hhhhmmmmmmm...
In fairness, long distance hiking amounts HAS gone up. But, again, ,that is a blip in overall backcountry use.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/about-the-trail/2000-milers
Northbound out of Springer was a zoo 25 years ago. I think ATC is already doing the right thing by prominently listing numerous alternatives to a traditional GA>ME thru-hike. More folks going sobo, or flip-flopping in various ways, or just plain section hiking would eliminate the crazy crowding that afflicts the northbound herd.
I don't think folks thru-hike for the rocker or the certificate. They do it because the very idea of a 2000+ mile walk in the woods is so outrageous.
Section hiking off season (say, the mid-Atlantic in late summer,) you have the trail to yourself. You'll be wishing for company.
upstream
12-09-2014, 21:49
Oh, telling people "It ain't a thru hike unless you start at one end and finish at the other", every time somone inquires about flip flops, isn't glorifying straight thru hikes at all, is it?:rolleyes: Just some peoples thru hikes.
Migrating Bird
12-09-2014, 22:17
If hikers are incapable of being responsible, i.e., carry in, carry out or how to crap in the woods, etc., then institute a fee based mandatory hiker education courses similar to hunter education courses instructed by licensed private instructors. I believe hiker feeds and food left in coolers breeds dependency and is contradictory to the fundamentals of long distance hiking such as being prepared to provide food, clothing and shelter for oneself. If people feel a need or want to give back to society to make it better, then volunteer at hospital, daycare, school, etc. I apologize for my rant.
aaronthebugbuffet
12-09-2014, 22:21
I recall this one regarding:
I can easily foresee a future where:
Scientific Study by Acknowledge Expert and Lover of the Trail
+
ATC Acknnowlegement of Unsustainable Use
+
New Stress and National Focus from AWITW Movie
+
Years of Failure to Change Thru Hiker Use Patterns
+
Long-standing History of Restrictive Backcountry Permits in Western NPS Units
=
A Sad End to a Great Era(Pemitts and Restrictions)
this "study" is about 15 years too late. georgia was overcrowded then. maybe the ATC shouldn't give out certificates and take pictures at the headquarters glorifying a thru-hike. don't see how they're gonna regulate folks walkin' in the woods
pretty much spot on there
Sir-Packs-Alot
12-09-2014, 22:53
As proprietor of the Top of Georgia Hostel - the bubble down here is certainly of concern - a boon for a hostel owner - but not a boon without it's difficulties and dramas :) Thanks for all you do - and we look forward to working with you .
Interesting discussion and always diverse and helpful points of view here. I appreciate that all of you on WhiteBlaze are so passionate about the A.T.
There will be lots more discussions like these in the coming months. Let me say at the outset that ATC has worked hard for decades to keep the A.T. is unregimented and unregulated as possible. This principle to avoid or minimize regulation is even in the A.T. Comprehensive Plan from the 80s, which many people have forgotten about, but we hold sacred. We hold it up as our guiding principle when agency partners (National Park Service, U.S. Forest Service, Baxter State Park, and many, many others) want to go that route. We've been successful the vast majority of the time.
Instead of resorting to regulation, we provide information and education on responsible use. However, we are not connecting with thru-hikers the way we used to. Today's thru-hikers rarely buy our maps and guidebooks, which was how we used to get most of our thru-hiker members. Even today, if you spend $40 on membership, you save $112 off the $323 retail price for an end-of-the year member special. But that's no longer any kind of incentive for most hikers, who mostly rely solely on one under-$20 guidebook for the entire 6 months of their hike.
Our website, with its in-depth Leave No Trace section, is not terribly popular with thru-hikers. Sites by thru-hikers for thru-hikers are just a lot more exciting and interactive, written in hiker lingo, talking about the latest gear, where you can find trail magic, etc. So after perhaps a few initial passes, hikers don't come back to ours much. We have expanded into social media in the last few years, and will be starting a blog next year. But, we must serve everyone from the day-hiker to the thru-hiker, as well as provide information to volunteers, agency partners, those who might support the A.T., and more.
We have programs like ridgerunners and caretakers to educate hikers on Leave No Trace and, in some cases, manage human waste. The program includes caretakers specifically oriented to thru-hikers at Springer Mountain and Baxter State Park, so that we can provide education and information to thru-hikers, asking them to do the right thing rather than forcing them to. (In 2014, we funded the Springer Mountain caretaker, but Baxter funded theirs).
For the first time, this year ATC will be an official provider of Leave No Trace master educator courses (an an intensive, 5-day course), so we will be in a better position to train all sorts of folks up and down the trail on how to better teach LNT specifically to A.T. audiences.
We also need and welcome help from the hiking community for ideas in how to reach hikers with Leave No Trace messages. Essentially, we do want more people and more diverse audiences to be able to enjoy the trail. If everyone practices leave no trace (and it's about a whole lot more than just not leaving trash), the trail can accommodate a whole lot more people. But, part of enabling more people to enjoy the A.T. as it was meant to be enjoyed is not a whole masses of thru-hikers starting at Springer in a narrow window of time. That is the main reason we are encouraging thru-hikes with non-traditional itineraries.
Lone Wolf, you certainly have a point about the 2,000-miler photos, certificates, and listings. In fact, we've certainly had that discussion repeatedly within ATC over the years. Many times since the '70s, have come close to abandoning the 2,000-miler recognition program. But there are lots of reasons to continue, not least among them that ATC has the only more-or-less consistently collected numbers on any A.T. user group that shows trends over a long period of time. Numbers are gathered here, numbers there, but other programs and agency funding and priorities come and go.
Heck Yeah Ga! ,,, oops,,,, HECK YEAH GA!
MuddyWaters
12-09-2014, 23:14
Without doubt the day will come where you need permit. Its a matter of time. Too many people, not enough public lands.
You are only argueing over whether that is in 2 years, or 20.
This is necessary not only to protect the trail, but the experience of the user too. Unfortunately, there are some that think that a travelling party is the right mission of the trail.
Alligator
12-10-2014, 00:04
There is no wrong way to eat a Reese's.
lonehiker
12-10-2014, 00:57
so yeah I would suggest the ATC quit Glorifying it so much, quite taking pictures and handing out 2000 miler patches and certificates, if people didn't think they was gonna get famous by hiking the AT they would be less people hiking the AT.
This is an absurd post. With everyone owning a movie camera the size of a deck of cards, I seriously doubt that the mid-point photo is having that much impact.
I'm sure there were many more as absurd but I stopped reading this thread after the first page.
I haven't read all of this thread.
I do know, there are many millions of acres of public lands.
The problem at the AT already exists: I do not regard anything I have seen in photos, or, on YouTube as a natural environment or wilderness, and, yes, YouTube and online photos make a difference, either to "join in" or to go elsewhere. I will not hike the AT.
That is not to say, I think we have it so much better, in Montana.
When I went in the Bob Marshall Wilderness I was not happy to see a "boardwalk" like Atlantic City.
How is that preservation of a wilderness, or, limiting camping by hikers to one night, but horse outfits use the same camp site all season every year? Who uses the remote location cabins volunteers repair and upkeep? The employees. How are they qualified to be stewards of the land, they use? For all our problems, here, where I am, we don't want an AT trail, here, in Montana. The people that have done trail work are, well, unavailable.
This is what "do-gooders" accomplish.
I want to do "trail grooming" no one else wants.
If you are sufficiently interested to learn how to do route-finding, wilderness navigation, and self-sufficiency to get out and enjoy a natural environment, I help.
Other people, as well, will help you achieve your goals in harmony with getting out there: Leave No Trace. Pack it in - Pack it out. Like that.
If you do, you will experience your own nature, without preconceptions, by direct experience with nature becayse we are part of that nature, and, you will leave it a natural environment for generations that come after you to exoerience a natural environment, their own nature, and, their own place in nature.
There are people who only want to destroy any opportunity for that experience.
Most of us, who have got out there in nature, know what that destruction is, and, who is responsible.
If I see that is me, I back away from it.
JohnnySnook
12-10-2014, 02:16
Maybe a few LNT fines could go a long way.
Like what happened here.
http://news.yahoo.com/rafter-fined-dumping-trash-grand-canyon-river-011646287.html
Hidden cameras at shelters powered by solar power.
Have a training program for local hikers / trail workers that once is completed they can issue ticket to hikers that don't LNT.
A $2,500 dollar fine could break a thru-hikers budget and those that are just out for a days will never forget the big fine for trashing a campsite!
"Fifty or more people a day leaving Springer, day after day, for weeks on end, is simply not sustainable for the A.T.--particularly the overnight sites. With the movies Wild and A Walk in the Woods in theaters this year, there will be even more."
"Essentially, we do want more people and more diverse audiences to be able to enjoy the trail. If everyone practices leave no trace (and it's about a whole lot more than just not leaving trash), the trail can accommodate a whole lot more people. But, part of enabling more people to enjoy the A.T. as it was meant to be enjoyed is not a whole masses of thru-hikers starting at Springer in a narrow window of time. That is the main reason we are encouraging thru-hikes with non-traditional itineraries."
Since this has been acknowledged two thoughts:
1)Even if everyone practiced strong LNT principles, in a perfect world, which doesn't exist anyhow, under this scenario, it still leaves negative consequences to deal with - the sheer numbers bottled up in a bubble. And, as you say, it will likely get increasingly more problematic if the bubble isn't dispersed. In all due respect, teaching and practicing LNT is only part of the solution. Practicing LNT mitigates not eliminates the negative human impact. Despite the title - Leave No Trace - in practice it rarely happens exactly that way. However, LNT principles could be prominently and securely disseminated on a placard at every AT Shelter, campgrounds adjacent to the AT, every White Mt Hut, and at some AT campsites. LNT Principles should be encouraged to be displayed at AT Hostels, establishments that are frequented by AT hikers, etc.
Some dispersing of the bubble could be facilitated by daily and/or weekly AT TH quotas at Amicalola Falls and Springer Mt during peak trail usage such as between March 15 - May 1. It is something to consider. I wouldn't take it off the table. It would disperse the hiking population. The AT already experiences minimal regulation. It's already here! Regulation already exists at Great Smokey Mountain and Shenandoah NPs, The White Mountains, and Baxter SP. Heck, even ferrying safely across the Kennebec River involves some regulation if one thinks about it in a certain sense. Is this really too much to ask and out of bounds even in light of staying true to Benton Mckaye's ideals as a conservationist in a dynamically changing population? I ask, if the sheer numbers bottled up in tight bubbles change the very ideal that the AT was meant to be envisioned isn't that enough to take pause and consider dispersing the impact through some minimal seasonal quota system at these bottle necking THs?
Further, disperse the hiking population by avidly working with and promoting shuttlers, bus systems, establishments, trail angels, etc on the AT in the area around Damascus during Trail Days which is another bottle neck pt. Thru-hikers especially should be encouraged to avail themselves of such services so they proactively aren't habituated to timing their stops at Trail days with where they are on their thru-hikes. The negative environmental impact the AT experiences around Damascus as a result of this bottle neck can be substantial.
2)If the ATC wants to encourage more non traditional AT thru-hike itineraries and AT 2000 mile completions they should take the lead by redefining what this means. The ATC could consider 2000 mile recognition be given based on including the Pinhoti and Benton Mackaye Trails in addition to the AT proper between Springer Mt and Mt Katahdin. This would further disperse the AT hiking crowd. It's my illusion this will make some people in GSMNP, Baxter SP, etc happy. The ATC should actively recognize and publically encourage the AT as a system of trails, which according to some of Mackaye's original ideals was what he wanted anyway - a system of interconnected trails rather than an AT IS HERE and ONLY HERE approach. I sincerely hope the CDT governing bodies never adopt that type of hardline approach. Further, offer 2400, 2500, 2800, 3000, etc mile recognitions. It's my guess, if you do this, a fuzzy line will be drawn in more minds what's being defined as hiking the AT further dispersing usage. As a result the ATC will also accomplish: attracting more people and more diverse audiences being able to enjoy the trail, the trail(system) can accommodate a whole lot more people, enable more people to enjoy the A.T. as it was meant to be enjoyed not a whole lot of masses of thru-hikers starting at Springer in a narrow window of time.
I think the line is already "fuzzy" with mileage awards.
In California, people roadwalk mileage.
People walk and bicycle across-USA.
They roadwalk for charity. They roadwalk for other purposes.
I saw a solitary roadwalk, involving "prostrations" by a buddhist. It was along Highway 1.
When I found out, from YouTube, the CDT, PCT and the AT involve a roadwalk, I was incredulous.
I think the designation as "trails" is pretentious, and, that pretense creates the problem.
In all honesty, people who thru-hike "re-create" an experience. It is not, nor can be, the authentic experience.
The authentic experience is to select the best travel conditions thru interconnected trails, if that involves a beach walk like Andrew Shurka had along the coast of Akaska. When the tide is out, the shoreline can be a superhighway. Properly equipped, snow can be "easy" travel. If you have floatation, rivers can be travel. However. Each had forseen hazards. He had to "do well" or perish in all conditions. His Alaska trip is a thru-hike.
Few can accomplish that. He had to find the skills he would need before, and during, the thru-hike.
The AT has ladders, and, climbing aids installed in boulders. It is not a wilderness experience, except in places.
It is a supported hike, a long hike.
I think honesty and regulation of trash and vandalism with hefty fines, the signage at trailheads and as you have mentioned will keep the numbers more reasonable.
The camino is a very much a road walk. Camino = road, and, way
How honest is that?
Sarcasm the elf
12-10-2014, 07:57
Maybe a few LNT fines could go a long way.
Like what happened here.
http://news.yahoo.com/rafter-fined-dumping-trash-grand-canyon-river-011646287.html
Hidden cameras at shelters powered by solar power.
Have a training program for local hikers / trail workers that once is completed they can issue ticket to hikers that don't LNT.
A $2,500 dollar fine could break a thru-hikers budget and those that are just out for a days will never forget the big fine for trashing a campsite!
Are you actually suggesting hidden cameras on the A.T.? Most of us go hiking to get away from that sort of nonsense.
hikernutcasey
12-10-2014, 10:00
"Fifty or more people a day leaving Springer, day after day, for weeks on end, is simply not sustainable for the A.T.--particularly the overnight sites. With the movies Wild and A Walk in the Woods in theaters this year, there will be even more."
"Essentially, we do want more people and more diverse audiences to be able to enjoy the trail. If everyone practices leave no trace (and it's about a whole lot more than just not leaving trash), the trail can accommodate a whole lot more people. But, part of enabling more people to enjoy the A.T. as it was meant to be enjoyed is not a whole masses of thru-hikers starting at Springer in a narrow window of time. That is the main reason we are encouraging thru-hikes with non-traditional itineraries."
Since this has been acknowledged two thoughts:
1)Even if everyone practiced strong LNT principles, in a perfect world, which doesn't exist anyhow, under this scenario, it still leaves negative consequences to deal with - the sheer numbers bottled up in a bubble. And, as you say, it will likely get increasingly more problematic if the bubble isn't dispersed.In all due respect, teaching and practicing LNT is only part of the solution. Practicing LNT mitigates not eliminates the negative human impact. Despite the title - Leave No Trace - in practice it rarely happens exactly that way. However, LNT principles could be prominently and securely disseminated on a placard at every AT Shelter, campgrounds adjacent to the AT, every White Mt Hut, and at some AT campsites. LNT Principles should be encouraged to be displayed at AT Hostels, establishments that are frequented by AT hikers, etc.
Some dispersing of the bubble could be facilitated by daily and/or weekly AT TH quotas at Amicalola Falls and Springer Mt during peak trail usage such as between March 15 - May 1. It is something to consider. I wouldn't take it off the table. It would disperse the hiking population. The AT already experiences minimal regulation. It's already here! Regulation already exists at Great Smokey Mountain and Shenandoah NPs, The White Mountains, and Baxter SP. Heck, even ferrying safely across the Kennebec River involves some regulation if one thinks about it in a certain sense. Is this really too much to ask and out of bounds even in light of staying true to Benton Mckaye's ideals as a conservationist in a dynamically changing population? I ask, if the sheer numbers bottled up in tight bubbles change the very ideal that the AT was meant to be envisioned isn't that enough to take pause and consider dispersing the impact through some minimal seasonal quota system at these bottle necking THs?
Further, disperse the hiking population by avidly working with and promoting shuttlers, bus systems, establishments, trail angels, etc on the AT in the area around Damascus during Trail Days which is another bottle neck pt. Thru-hikers especially should be encouraged to avail themselves of such services so they proactively aren't habituated to timing their stops at Trail days with where they are on their thru-hikes. The negative environmental impact the AT experiences around Damascus as a result of this bottle neck can be substantial.
2)If the ATC wants to encourage more non traditional AT thru-hike itineraries and AT 2000 mile completions they should take the lead by redefining what this means. The ATC could consider 2000 mile recognition be given based on including the Pinhoti and Benton Mackaye Trails in addition to the AT proper between Springer Mt and Mt Katahdin. This would further disperse the AT hiking crowd. It's my illusion this will make some people in GSMNP, Baxter SP, etc happy. The ATC should actively recognize and publically encourage the AT as a system of trails, which according to some of Mackaye's original ideals was what he wanted anyway - a system of interconnected trails rather than an AT IS HERE and ONLY HERE approach. I sincerely hope the CDT governing bodies never adopt that type of hardline approach. Further, offer 2400, 2500, 2800, 3000, etc mile recognitions. It's my guess, if you do this, a fuzzy line will be drawn in more minds what's being defined as hiking the AT further dispersing usage. As a result the ATC will also accomplish: attracting more people and more diverse audiences being able to enjoy the trail, the trail(system) can accommodate a whole lot more people, enable more people to enjoy the A.T. as it was meant to be enjoyed not a whole lot of masses of thru-hikers starting at Springer in a narrow window of time.
Nice and thoughtful post. I agree with most of what you have to say. I think the solution will ultimately not come down to one single change or mandate. It will have to be a combination of changes, many of which you suggest.
I think the one thing people sometimes forget is the changes are not being made for them but rather for the protection of the environment and trail. Some get upset at the idea of further regulation but sometimes it's a necessary evil. As Dogwood said, you can teach LNT principles until you are blue in the face and even if everyone practised them perfectly at some point the strain from too many people is still too great for the land. If you want to enjoy the trail in the future and protect it for future generations, sacrifices are going to have to be made. Things cannot stay as they are.
Just Bill
12-10-2014, 11:26
Interesting discussion and always diverse and helpful points of view here. I appreciate that all of you on WhiteBlaze are so passionate about the A.T.
There will be lots more discussions like these in the coming months. Let me say at the outset that ATC has worked hard for decades to keep the A.T. is unregimented and unregulated as possible. This principle to avoid or minimize regulation is even in the A.T. Comprehensive Plan from the 80s, which many people have forgotten about, but we hold sacred. We hold it up as our guiding principle when agency partners (National Park Service, U.S. Forest Service, Baxter State Park, and many, many others) want to go that route. We've been successful the vast majority of the time.
Instead of resorting to regulation, we provide information and education on responsible use. However, we are not connecting with thru-hikers the way we used to. Today's thru-hikers rarely buy our maps and guidebooks, which was how we used to get most of our thru-hiker members. Even today, if you spend $40 on membership, you save $112 off the $323 retail price for an end-of-the year member special. But that's no longer any kind of incentive for most hikers, who mostly rely solely on one under-$20 guidebook for the entire 6 months of their hike.
Our website, with its in-depth Leave No Trace section, is not terribly popular with thru-hikers. Sites by thru-hikers for thru-hikers are just a lot more exciting and interactive, written in hiker lingo, talking about the latest gear, where you can find trail magic, etc. So after perhaps a few initial passes, hikers don't come back to ours much. We have expanded into social media in the last few years, and will be starting a blog next year. But, we must serve everyone from the day-hiker to the thru-hiker, as well as provide information to volunteers, agency partners, those who might support the A.T., and more.
We have programs like ridgerunners and caretakers to educate hikers on Leave No Trace and, in some cases, manage human waste. The program includes caretakers specifically oriented to thru-hikers at Springer Mountain and Baxter State Park, so that we can provide education and information to thru-hikers, asking them to do the right thing rather than forcing them to. (In 2014, we funded the Springer Mountain caretaker, but Baxter funded theirs).
For the first time, this year ATC will be an official provider of Leave No Trace master educator courses (an an intensive, 5-day course), so we will be in a better position to train all sorts of folks up and down the trail on how to better teach LNT specifically to A.T. audiences.
We also need and welcome help from the hiking community for ideas in how to reach hikers with Leave No Trace messages. Essentially, we do want more people and more diverse audiences to be able to enjoy the trail. If everyone practices leave no trace (and it's about a whole lot more than just not leaving trash), the trail can accommodate a whole lot more people. But, part of enabling more people to enjoy the A.T. as it was meant to be enjoyed is not a whole masses of thru-hikers starting at Springer in a narrow window of time. That is the main reason we are encouraging thru-hikes with non-traditional itineraries.
Lone Wolf, you certainly have a point about the 2,000-miler photos, certificates, and listings. In fact, we've certainly had that discussion repeatedly within ATC over the years. Many times since the '70s, have come close to abandoning the 2,000-miler recognition program. But there are lots of reasons to continue, not least among them that ATC has the only more-or-less consistently collected numbers on any A.T. user group that shows trends over a long period of time. Numbers are gathered here, numbers there, but other programs and agency funding and priorities come and go.
Laurie's post provides some overall insight to some of the deeper changes taking place- personally change is not good or bad IMO, it just is.
The AT has become a destination and experience for many folks.
While for me growing up as an outdoorsperson a long distance hike (of any trail) was viewed as the next step of my hobby/lifestyle. Something reserved for the "elite" (The CDT is still thought of in this way to an extent.) That said, being from the Midwest- Bryson's book made me look to the AT, as opposed to the Ice Age Trail or something local. I took the hike seriously as a prolonged outdoors trip, requiring great effort, education, and experience before undertaking it.
Much like "Backpacking" (hostel hopping) Europe was once the cool thing for a college age person to do, the AT has become that type of journey. All the same aspects are sought out: Exposure to new cultures, experiencing people of different backgrounds, learning about yourself, getting out of your element and taking a break from the world around you. Essentially- traveling. The AT certainly isn't as easy as a hostel hop, but in many ways the learning curve is not much steeper. You don't need a passport, there will be many like minded travelers out, and since you aren't confident in your abilities and seeking a social experience this crowd is ATTRACTED to a densely populated start and may even rely on it. They know the herd will thin, but don't have any issue with safety in numbers while they sort out their trip.
But the outdoors is the backdrop- not the prime focus. A decent portion of these folks will never hike again, much like few people never make the choice to become full time hostel hoppers. That said- much like college alums they may reach into their wallet from time to time and support the trail. And a few of them will become lifetime outdoors participants- and the outdoors surely needs them.
As Laurie mentions; reaching this sector of the community is increasingly difficult. This generation relies on peer driven feedback and internet based knowledge. Taking Photo's at the AT headquarters is actually one of the best ways to reach them. How can they ever truly boast on social media without this "key" photo, or register their journey without a body to register it with? Maybe they will join up or at least see something when there that will make them come back when Big K is checked off the list. But you can't fight the whole reason that folks came to the trail, or expect them to suddenly adopt with religious fury LNT or even simple respect for the land you travel. You have to respect and cherish something before you value it. People assume that if not mommy, somebody (RR or ranger) is getting paid to clean up after them.
From the outside looking in (a Midwesterner who can visit anywhere really)- The ATC is losing it's relevance. I purchased that $350 mapbook and guidebook set- not for any great reason other than buying a map and guidebook was standard practice my whole life when entering the woods. On breaks or sitting around I read the books here and there. But I fully admit that I have yet to update that 15 year old set, nor do I plan to. AWOL's book is great, and in someways the AT in general has negated the need for their own guidebooks and maps for the THRU HIKER. The local resident or casual user of the trail would benefit greatly still from owning their local chapters set and get more use out of it.
Increasingly- "there's an APP for that" is becoming everyone's mode of operation.
I think that the ATC could and should do more to partner with those folks who publish these books. In a business sense- your competitors are better- buy them out or merge. I would pay a buck more for AWOL's book (with that dollar going to the ATC- or even better- be fine with having the book only available through the ATC. Same with an App. Making yourself relevant as a business, means servicing your customer- not asking your customer to demand your service.
There are thousands of things the ATC does that no one is aware of, and even I don't understand all that is done to provide a trail for me to visit. But that conversation can't begin until that hiker has met the ATC and the trail. I deeply appreciate all that is done, mainly by sending what I can when I can. In my day to day life though there isn't much the ATC can do for me other than continuing to "fight the good fight". Unfortunately- very few hikers even know that fight is happening or going on. Simple brand recognition is needed, and partnership with the real gateways of the AT dreamer or hiker would be a big help. The AT needs to be identified with the ATC- otherwise it's little more than the ugly looking building you take your polaroid in front of. That is harsh for sure, but likely not far off the mark in many casual hiker's minds.
Personally- I have never been anywhere like the AT. My whole life (since middle school) the biggest obstacle and first item on the pre-trip list was "Can I go?" Reservation, Permit, Fee, Youth Group Application, Tax Exempt status, Maps, Guides, parking regulations, and on and on...
That has always been my experience. True there are plenty of woods you can just walk into, but that has more to do with the fact that I can find a place to store a vehicle (typically offsite) and bushwhack my way into it. There are no trails to travel or maintain.
One of my favorite places on the planet- BWCA and Quetico.
One of the greatest reasons I love it- a permit system- which keeps the place wild. If I don't get the permit I want, I don't cry- it only makes me appreciate and desire a trip there all the more. And when I finally do get there- I find what I seek.
It will be very difficult to break the college age hiker of the "Thru-Hike Experience"
How many on here still insist that starting in April is the way to go?
How many younger folks value the fact that they fought the crowds, made friends, persevered through the Smokies and emerged as Long Distance Hikers.
How many consider Neel Gap to be a mandatory stop and budget money for the inevitable "shakedown" after a mere 30 miles?
How many younger folks report having difficulty bonding with hikers when they didn't share this initial push?
How many times has a Southbounder been teased about "going the wrong way"?
Or a hiker forced to flip-flop and break the continuity of their journey hung their head a bit in defeat?
You won't ever dissuade the bulk of the herd to break a herd. It goes against nature.
But a simple system of capping starts per day is logical and inevitable. That's more or less all the boundary waters does. X groups per day can visit a given location, to the benefit of all.
It should cost a nominal fee to cover admin costs, it could even be run by ATC with partnership from local parks.
Not being able to start the trail unless contacting ATC could be a huge boon, fee could be waived in lieu of membership.
Even if 50 super educated LNT pulpit pounders left springer together by tip-toe with 5 lb SUL packs- they would impact the trail, compact a campsite and make a small mess.
Spreading them out is the only real solution via assigned start days. Applied for early on and granted via lottery.
In fact- permit lottery day for BWCA/Quetico is an exiting event- which draws lots of prospective visitors to the park system- which encourages purchases and intense research on their websites. If you want the hot spots at the hot time of year you must apply early- and occasionally be disapointed. That said, off season or for places off the beaten path- you can get a walk up permit all year.
Not everyone should or could start on springer on April 1st. That is increasingly foolish indeed.
Rain Man
12-10-2014, 11:38
I hate government quotas and restrictions ....
If it weren't for "government quotas and restrictions" there would be no fish in the sea, no birds in the air, and no wildlife in the wild. Not to mention, I'd hate to think how many national parks and public places would be with a "wild west" philosophy.
Rain Man
one thing that should be done in regards to this problem: please no more publicity, stop making films and writing books about the AT. It's not like anyone needs to get the word out. The word is out. The day could well come when there will be no more wilderness left anywhere along the trail. Protection doesn't me just keeping houses and roads out. It also means preventing an exploding number of hikers, many of who are more interested in getting drunk thank immersing themselves in the wilderness, from beating the daylights out of this wonderful trail. I'm so glad that I did the trail when I did. With numbers like these starting every day from Springer.. it's no longer a trail I would want to hike.
A short term solution may be to build/deignate some structured camping sites in the first 200 miles. The obvious savings in cost over constructing shelters is clear, and the bulk of overrflow hikers drop off in the first section. If it is necessary to control the number of hikers starting each day, possibly a staging area with campsites so hikers can register on a fist come basis, camp and a set number of hikers released by the starter,then wait to be released.
There are obvious problems with these alternatives, but shelter construction may be prohibitive. I got a pass for the JMT last year, then got deathly ill and could not hike, but their system might work. Use the web a a sign up-regisration portal where people register to start on a specific day for a predetermined number of starting slots. Without a doubt the least expensive intervention.
Just some thoughts.
One more thing.. Rainman you are so right! We need those government quotas and restrictions to prevent parks from being "loved" to death.
Bill, that was an excellent essay. Thank you.
The vast majority of my backpacking has been in the land of permits, registrations, and quotas (Yosemite, Desolation Wilderness, Sequoia and Kings Canyon, Pt. Reyes National Seashore, Ohlone Wilderness, etc.).
I have never had a problem getting a permit for most of these places, even spur of the moment. There are often a large number of no shows, and it isn't that hard to get a permit.
The permits (most places) are $5-10 and compared to transportation or gear or food, it is a small percentage of the trip expense.
I'd say that the only pain is sometimes a detour before getting to the trail head and sometimes waiting in line to pick up the permit. On the plus side, I've found the information from a chat with a ranger about trail condition, water, good/flat camping spots, etc. to be helpful.
I've never had a ranger be unpleasant when I have been out for a number of days and end up in the "wrong" quota zone on the "wrong" day. They have been very understanding that sometimes stuff happens and I thought that I'd be at Lake Aloha on Tuesday, but today is Wednesday. (YMMV, of course... both literally and figuratively... :))
And there are also thousands of beautiful miles in CA where there is zero bureaucracy or fees or permits or quotas. I'm sure that this is true in most of the larger states that the AT runs thru.
You have to respect and cherish something before you value it. People assume that if not mommy, somebody (RR or ranger) is getting paid to clean up after them. I respectfully disagree (although... really... we agree...)
When you pick up your permit in Yosemite, the rangers ask you, "What do you do with your toilet paper?" Correct answer is "Put it in a zip lock and pack it out". (I know, a lot of you are going, "Ewwwww!", but honestly I consider packing out used TP to be totally normal and routine and the "right" thing to do.)
I have gone to heavily used parts of Yosemite and seen ZERO toilet paper. Kings Canyon and Desolation Wilderness are disgusting with used TP in places, but Desolation Wilderness has online permits and Kings Canyon rangers use a different education system.
I think that the AT (and the PCT, too) would probably benefit if every thru hiker started their hike picking up a permit and received a Yosemite Ranger question and answer session. :)
If it weren't for "government quotas and restrictions" there would be no fish in the sea, no birds in the air, and no wildlife in the wild. Not to mention, I'd hate to think how many national parks and public places would be with a "wild west" philosophy.
Rain Man
Very clever, but you neglected to quote what came after that out of context snippet.
Seatbelt
12-10-2014, 14:29
I like the alternate route(s) suggestion for the first 100-200 miles. Also, if the first 100-200 miles were tougher, it might "thin the herd" out sooner. I see alot of effort being put in to make the trail easier with extra switchbacks, easier grades on re-routes, etc. Just a thought.
Starchild
12-10-2014, 14:43
I like the alternate route(s) suggestion for the first 100-200 miles. Also, if the first 100-200 miles were tougher, it might "thin the herd" out sooner. I see alot of effort being put in to make the trail easier with extra switchbacks, easier grades on re-routes, etc. Just a thought.
But is that addressing the problem, or just spreading it to another trail?
Also the gear is getting better and lighter, not just the reroutes.
Violent Green
12-10-2014, 15:00
I would be in favor of fee/permit/quota to start at Springer and go north along the traditional route. For those who cannot get a permit, they are allowed to take the BMT sans permit. This would spread out the hikers, make a few bucks for trail up keep and most likely cut down on use slightly. Obviously there are drawbacks, but every solution, including staying the course, does as well. I think we're probably 10-15yrs from a permit system though.
Ryan
Cookerhiker
12-10-2014, 15:13
It seems that the biggest ecological impact emanates from the NOBOs in the first 6 weeks hiking GA, NC, and TN. I like the suggestion mentioned by many of you: encourage the ATC to recognize as 2,000 milers (to the extent that such recognition continues) those who hike alternates such as the BMT and the network of blue-blazed trails in the Smokies. I would add other options as well such as the Tuscarora.
Another Kevin
12-10-2014, 15:18
I like the alternate route(s) suggestion for the first 100-200 miles. Also, if the first 100-200 miles were tougher, it might "thin the herd" out sooner. I see alot of effort being put in to make the trail easier with extra switchbacks, easier grades on re-routes, etc. Just a thought.
Speaking as a sometime trail maintainer: Usually when grade reduction is done, it's to preserve the treadway against erosion. Fall-line trails wear out very badly. There are trails in New York that are hundreds of years old and are now gullies worn all the way down to bedrock. When it was first placed, this trail - and the wagon road that preceded it - was on the grade of the hillside. Now it's worn 20 feet deep in spots. If it didn't go straight down the hill and had had some place for water to drain off the trail, it mightn't have eroded like this. Those banks must be twenty feet high in spots.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3938/14967626603_ec32b2b6f5.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14967626603/)
Former Godfrey Road (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14967626603/) by ke9tv (https://www.flickr.com/people/ke9tv/), on Flickr
And mind you, I like trails like this one - where the hillside is stable enough to have them. That simply doesn't happen in most places. (Note that there's a circular blaze on the tree in the center of the picture.)
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3670/14092646157_d0e9732486.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14092646157/)
Boulder scramble (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14092646157/) by ke9tv (https://www.flickr.com/people/ke9tv/), on Flickr
Another Kevin
12-10-2014, 15:24
I'm probably very confused here, but don't the day-trippers and weekenders still way outnumber the thrus? Are we considering what is actually a limited, local problem of the thru-hiker bubble in the first couple of hundred miles of trail, or does the perceived overuse problem extend beyond that?
I'm probably very confused here, but don't the day-trippers and weekenders still way outnumber the thrus? Are we considering what is actually a limited, local problem of the thru-hiker bubble in the first couple of hundred miles of trail, or does the perceived overuse problem extend beyond that?
Under a permit system, there wouldn't be much of a distinction between short term overnight users and thru hikers. Most likely a permit would be issued based on the trailhead and intended first night campsite/shelter. It would hardly be feasible to have a permit system like GSMNP where campsites/shelters are planned for weeks on end. Something more like in the Sierra Nevada where trailhead quotas are imposed and, in some cases (like Yosemite) first night camp locations are mandated as a condition of the permit.
Day hiking permits are a pretty draconian step and probably would not be feasible or desirable.
I haven't hiked the AT in Georgia at all so I have no idea how impacted it really is during the peak season. A trailhead quota and mandated first night campsite/shelter system would at least control how many people enter on a given day even if it doesn't cure all the problems.
Seatbelt
12-10-2014, 15:47
But is that addressing the problem, or just spreading it to another trail?
Also the gear is getting better and lighter, not just the reroutes.
I guess I misunderstood the problem. I thought it was the greater number of people using the trail at the same time, sorry.
Seatbelt
12-10-2014, 15:50
Speaking as a sometime trail maintainer: Usually when grade reduction is done, it's to preserve the treadway against erosion. Fall-line trails wear out very badly. There are trails in New York that are hundreds of years old and are now gullies worn all the way down to bedrock. When it was first placed, this trail - and the wagon road that preceded it - was on the grade of the hillside. Now it's worn 20 feet deep in spots. If it didn't go straight down the hill and had had some place for water to drain off the trail, it mightn't have eroded like this. Those banks must be twenty feet high in spots.
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3938/14967626603_ec32b2b6f5.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14967626603/)
Former Godfrey Road (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14967626603/) by ke9tv (https://www.flickr.com/people/ke9tv/), on Flickr
And mind you, I like trails like this one - where the hillside is stable enough to have them. That simply doesn't happen in most places. (Note that there's a circular blaze on the tree in the center of the picture.)
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3670/14092646157_d0e9732486.jpg (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14092646157/)
Boulder scramble (https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/14092646157/) by ke9tv (https://www.flickr.com/people/ke9tv/), on Flickr
I understand that this(erosion concerns) is the primary reason for re-routing, but it is almost always done in a manneer which makes the hiking easier than before--at least that is my observation.
The problem is "environmental impact" of the numbers of people.
There is terrain that cannot sustain a trail. We have erosion like that, in Montana, mentioned in New York state: on a horse you cannot see over the top of the trail cut so deep, by overuse, by going straight thru, by horses.
The soil on my property is "Ly Loberg". It has high erosion at 3% grade, so I won't try to make a driveway.
I walk in the last half mile, from the hiway pullout. If I need to drive in, I drive AWD on an unimproved track.
That soil condition information is county by county in a book available from the USDA. It has fold out photos, of the land. It maps the soil. It has explanations of the soil condition, and, if it sustains cow and calf, or, is wild animal browse (only) because that soil and subsoil and/or slope will not sustain more. Lucky wild animals, right? People put cattle and horses on that land.
I think "environmental impact" if enforced would be a great help for conservation, for preservation of wilderness areas and of national forests. Too often, however, the result of the study is bought off.
If you will never see forested land never logged, you have not seen "old growth" or "primal forest" for example.
If you have, you can comprehend why europeans poetry, writing, and art was deemed The Englightened Age" of poetry, writing and art. It is because they saw "raw land" and "raw forests" in North America.
Why would we want to make North America like Europe?
If you like "hut hiking" or "trekking" as it is called around the world, do that there. They have hundreds if years experience. It is already established. They have great accomodations for "the experience" and often great food.
Dogwood,
at some point the strain from too many people is still too great for the land
Just Bill,
People assume that if not mommy, somebody (RR or ranger) is getting paid to clean up after them.
Lauriep,
We also need and welcome help from the hiking community for ideas in how to reach hikers.
Have the signage suggested in this thread... Then have fines, and/or picking up trash. If you litter a highway, you get both in western states. Pay a hefty fine. Walk a mile, or more, of the highway picking up trash. No kidding.
"But the outdoors is the backdrop- not the prime focus."
At the core of this statement is how some view Nature and man - that is, man is viewed separate from Nature. It is this very world view that is at the heart of many environmental, and a host of other world problems, including AT related issues as discussed on this thread. It's a major core contributing factor to unnecessary unwarranted fear of wildlife, self absorption, human centeredness, and destruction in terms to the environment and ultimately to all of humanity.
I have to question this perspective and adamantly disagree with it as it may be how some see the AT or being in Nature, the outdoors, but a WHOLE LOT of ATers - hikers, outdoors people of all persuasions, in their core being - absolutely do see the wildness of the AT, the Natural aspect of the AT, and the outdoors as the primary focus. Being on the AT isn't always simply viewed in the narrow sense of a 30" wide 2170 mile long blazed footpath with the outdoors as the backdrop. The AT and experiences with it ranges further than the commonly held western narrow human centric Abrahamic view of the world. AT experiences often involves a recognition of the connection - the union - between Nature and all of humanity - and all of Life. Nature(the outdoors) isn't just the backdrop as if it's the artificial props on a stage in a broadway play or on a movie set made to solely bend to the desires of humanity. We can have a world view that man is Nature - is part of Nature. This world view leads to a very different way of looking at Nature, outdoor/hiking experiences, AND THE AT. It revolves around a connection a unity rather than a separateness. And, since all of humanity can also be viewed as part of Nature our fellow man is perceived differently. When this connection with Nature - this union with Nature - is acknowledged out of it evolves a desire to examine our own individual behavior as we understand it influences everything else. We'll individually accept our responsibility by desiring to apply LNT Principles. We''ll want to cooperate with other elements of Nature bescuse we know we are also looking after ourselves. If it wasn't so, deep in our being, when given the option between hiking the steps through LA or around Central Park there would be less distinction made between those vastly different experiences. Experiences with the AT(the outdoors) will be viewed quite differntly if this later world perspective is taken. I refer to some of the things Starchild, Connie, and Hikernutcasey related on this thread.
It's my contention that if this alternate world view was adopted we wouldn't be so inclined to minimalize the all important work of the ATC and related AT support groups. We would be giving groups like the ATC more support contributing to its influence. Do we really want the AT to fall under a larger less focused large gov't entity? We all should take a much closer look at what the ATC core objectives are and help them in attaining those objectives.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/what-we-do
When you pick up your permit in Yosemite, the rangers ask you, "What do you do with your toilet paper?"
I think that the AT (and the PCT, too) would probably benefit if every thru hiker started their hike picking up a permit and received a Yosemite Ranger question and answer session. :)
This is what I was trying to facilitate with the suggestion of a AT Hiker Stamp. Maybe, a Stamp isn't the best way to go about but I would like to see AT hikers be more exposed to some worthy respected information/considerations like from a Ranger or in a Long Distance Hiker Permit such as instrumented when obtaining the PCT Long Distance Hiker Permit PRE HIKE. Having the ATC involved with such a permit affords that governing group greater relevance and platform in which to disseminate AT hiking relevant information that impacts not just the AT; IMHO, they deserve it AND they already have some processes/mechanics in place to warrant the greater relevance. The connection to and influence of the ATC is further enforced with slightly amending their current AT hiker recognition programs. This is what Spirit Walker stated earlier on in this thread as well. Get AT hikers attention BEFORE embarking on their hikes! Just Bill said something similar as to the ATC needing a greater ear from AT hikers. The ATC needs to receive greater relevance other than simply being perceived as a place to obtain a picture in front of a building, a rocker patch, certificate and/or maps/guidebooks.
Just Bill
12-10-2014, 18:19
You're preaching to the choir brother, lol.
The overall question isn't how to deal with those already involved in the outdoors, but how to first cater to and then capture the hearts of those passing through. Just as importantly, to know their heart and mind on the subject objectionably, not wishfully.
A walk in the woods is a nice story of some lessons learned and adventures had while traveling on and along the AT.
Wild is a book about a woman who empowers herself, set on the backdrop of the PCT.
Many hikers come for much the same reasons: Adventure, travel, self discovery, physical challenge, a test of their minds, nature, peace, healing, dropping out of society, or just plain fun. The AT, unlike any trail I can think of, captures a balance of these elements better than any trail in the world.
The hope of us all who already love the woods is that they will love it too. We shouldn't discourage any visitors, nor attempt to bombard them with "the good word" before they even settle into the pew. It shouldn't matter if you've always had the woods in your heart, or simply choose to stop by because you read a book or saw a movie. It should be understandable if mistakes are made along the way. We should kindle what small spark exists carefully- lest we blow it out before it gets going.
In the meantime, we must do what we can to protect the trail from them, until they desire to protect it from themselves and for themselves.
LNT is voluntary as you say, but that compulsion to comply or even protect must be developed over time and built upon a foundation of respect for the earth- never as a condition for entry.
The ATC is voluntary also, and support of this organization is preferable to any alternatives. It appears that they too recognize the challenge of turning the hearts and minds of the future.
From the link you provided-
"Our newer initiatives help us reach out to the next generation of A.T. supporters and visitors through education and outreach programs. As we work to steward the valuable lands that the A.T. traverses, we are eager to ensure those protected lands remain relevant and available to all those seeking recreation and solitude on the Trail."
I hope the AT is there for my son and daughter to walk one day if they choose. My daughter's initial's are AT, her middle name Avery.
My greater hope is that others feel the same, because even if one of my kids grows up to be president- even they won't be able to save it on their own.
Just in case it is unclear for some reason- This fella's words have always summed up quite nicely my feelings on how to treat the land and what that means.
http://1drv.ms/1sk02P9
29132
Starchild
12-10-2014, 18:33
"But the outdoors is the backdrop- not the prime focus."
At the core of this statement is how some view Nature and man - that is, man is viewed separate from Nature. It is this very world view that is at the heart of many environmental, and a host of other world problems, including AT related issues as discussed on this thread. It's a major core contributing factor to unnecessary unwarranted fear of wildlife, self absorption, human centeredness, and destruction in terms to the environment and ultimately to all of humanity.
I have to question this perspective and adamantly disagree with it as it may be how some see the AT or being in Nature, the outdoors, but a WHOLE LOT of ATers - hikers, outdoors people of all persuasions, in their core being - absolutely do see the wildness of the AT, the Natural aspect of the AT, and the outdoors as the primary focus. Being on the AT isn't always simply viewed in the narrow sense of a 30" wide 2170 mile long blazed footpath with the outdoors as the backdrop. The AT and experiences with it ranges further than the commonly held western narrow human centric Abrahamic view of the world. AT experiences often involves a recognition of the connection - the union - between Nature and all of humanity - and all of Life. Nature(the outdoors) isn't just the backdrop as if it's the artificial props on a stage in a broadway play or on a movie set made to solely bend to the desires of humanity. We can have a world view that man is Nature - is part of Nature. This world view leads to a very different way of looking at Nature, outdoor/hiking experiences, AND THE AT. It revolves around a connection a unity rather than a separateness. And, since all of humanity can also be viewed as part of Nature our fellow man is perceived differently. When this connection with Nature - this union with Nature - is acknowledged out of it evolves a desire to examine our own individual behavior as we understand it influences everything else. We'll individually accept our responsibility by desiring to apply LNT Principles. We''ll want to cooperate with other elements of Nature bescuse we know we are also looking after ourselves. If it wasn't so, deep in our being, when given the option between hiking the steps through LA or around Central Park there would be less distinction made between those vastly different experiences. Experiences with the AT(the outdoors) will be viewed quite differntly if this later world perspective is taken. I refer to some of the things Starchild, Connie, and Hikernutcasey related on this thread.
It's my contention that if this alternate world view was adopted we wouldn't be so inclined to minimalize the all important work of the ATC and related AT support groups. We would be giving groups like the ATC more support contributing to its influence. Do we really want the AT to fall under a larger less focused large gov't entity? We all should take a much closer look at what the ATC core objectives are and help them in attaining those objectives.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/what-we-do
I believe you beautifully expressed some of my views here, not sure if we use them to come to the same conclusion. But yes we are one with nature, humanity, community and nature are intertwined and one with each other. Or at least it is supposed to be. No where I have experienced is this oneness more evident then the AT Thru experience. It is the thru experience that is the oneness of us and nature, accepted for who we are.
It is what the AT evolved from it's original purpose to it's present day usage, the inclusion of us, humanity as part of the greater whole.
It is also the point that I differ with LNT, as that, in title and to some degree in it's principals, divide us from nature. It states we are the problem, not that we are part of nature. I do feel it is flawed as it it not in harmony with the oneness of nature. I do prefer what I heard as 'land stewardship', basically stated we are the stewards of the land for all that come later. It involved respect for each other and the land, it does not punish nor condemn but empowers (LNT does no such thing, actually quite the opposite), nor does it have a hierarchic as LNT does, just love for our fellow man, the other inhabitants of this earth and our common home.
How about?
Make a nice logo.
Make broadsides: Are we the stewards if the land?
"Them are Us". With the usual signage symbol for deposit trash here.
I got "Them are Us" from the Pogo comic strip. It "worked" for me in another time and place.
rocketsocks
12-10-2014, 19:59
How about?
Make a nice logo.
Make broadsides: Are we the stewards if the land?
"Them are Us". With the usual signage symbol for deposit trash here.
I got "Them are Us" from the Pogo comic strip. It "worked" for me in another time and place.
pretty sure a signage program is already underway. kinda like "in the workplace" posters.
rocketsocks
12-10-2014, 20:02
"But the outdoors is the backdrop- not the prime focus."
At the core of this statement is how some view Nature and man - that is, man is viewed separate from Nature. It is this very world view that is at the heart of many environmental, and a host of other world problems, including AT related issues as discussed on this thread. It's a major core contributing factor to unnecessary unwarranted fear of wildlife, self absorption, human centeredness, and destruction in terms to the environment and ultimately to all of humanity.
I have to question this perspective and adamantly disagree with it as it may be how some see the AT or being in Nature, the outdoors, but a WHOLE LOT of ATers - hikers, outdoors people of all persuasions, in their core being - absolutely do see the wildness of the AT, the Natural aspect of the AT, and the outdoors as the primary focus. Being on the AT isn't always simply viewed in the narrow sense of a 30" wide 2170 mile long blazed footpath with the outdoors as the backdrop. The AT and experiences with it ranges further than the commonly held western narrow human centric Abrahamic view of the world. AT experiences often involves a recognition of the connection - the union - between Nature and all of humanity - and all of Life. Nature(the outdoors) isn't just the backdrop as if it's the artificial props on a stage in a broadway play or on a movie set made to solely bend to the desires of humanity. We can have a world view that man is Nature - is part of Nature. This world view leads to a very different way of looking at Nature, outdoor/hiking experiences, AND THE AT. It revolves around a connection a unity rather than a separateness. And, since all of humanity can also be viewed as part of Nature our fellow man is perceived differently. When this connection with Nature - this union with Nature - is acknowledged out of it evolves a desire to examine our own individual behavior as we understand it influences everything else. We'll individually accept our responsibility by desiring to apply LNT Principles. We''ll want to cooperate with other elements of Nature bescuse we know we are also looking after ourselves. If it wasn't so, deep in our being, when given the option between hiking the steps through LA or around Central Park there would be less distinction made between those vastly different experiences. Experiences with the AT(the outdoors) will be viewed quite differntly if this later world perspective is taken. I refer to some of the things Starchild, Connie, and Hikernutcasey related on this thread.
It's my contention that if this alternate world view was adopted we wouldn't be so inclined to minimalize the all important work of the ATC and related AT support groups. We would be giving groups like the ATC more support contributing to its influence. Do we really want the AT to fall under a larger less focused large gov't entity? We all should take a much closer look at what the ATC core objectives are and help them in attaining those objectives.
http://www.appalachiantrail.org/what-we-do
oh how I love a good screed. 29138
MuddyWaters
12-10-2014, 20:07
50 people per day may start the JMT during the summer months. There is not a tiny fraction of the problems the AT experiences.
Why?
1. Permits regulate persons entry points to spread them out
2. There are no shelters to serve as aggregating points
3. Hikers are instructed in where is permissible to camp for minimal damage
4. Rangers patrol the trail
5. The hikers are more sophisticated on average, and committed to protect the awesome area they are hiking thru
6. There is no travelling party mentallity
7. Far less poorly prepared people show up
8. Little road access
9. Managing agencies are committed to protecting the environment and the wilderness user experience.
On a more "positive" note:
"we are the stewards of the land"
fiddlehead
12-10-2014, 20:41
If the numbers keep growing, the biggest problem is the waste generated.
Gonna take some money to build bigger outhouses or privys.
So, sooner or later, money is going to have to be charged IMO.
We probably all have our ways to deal with the bubble.
For me, just start later. I've started as late as May 9th already and enjoyed the laggers and partyers, catching up to the bubble in New England.
Or better yet, go SOBO for now, but, that too will grow.
Face it, the world is getting more and more populated.
If you want a wilderness experience on the AT, you have to go when the crowds are not there yet (or any longer)
It can be done.
Good luck ATC, you've got a problem.
I predict money will be your answer. (but please use it to build more ****ters)
So what's the problem, anyway?
The environmental concerns in the area seem to have little to with hikers' impact on the surrounding ecosystem, but rather on aesthetics. Aesthetics are important, but let's acknowledge that the increasing number of thru hikers is not disrupting migration patterns, endangering a threatened species or significant local populations of any species, polluting watersheds or contributing to global warming. At worst, the increased numbers are making some places look like crap and pissing off some squirrels.
But what of the impact of these crowds on an individual thru hiker's experience? I know tha should not be trivialized, but ... A thru is different than a vacation in a National Park and a few nights on the Wonderland Trail. The totality of the experience over months is what matters. If the cost of opening up that experience to more people means today's thru hikers need to share the trail with a few more people is that really so bad?
I guess what I am getting at is the solutions one looks to depends very much on exactly how the problem is defined. Again, I don't know what the trail looks like in April, but I do know what it like to hike and camp in crowded areas.
From my limited perspective, I'd think that building more shelters and/or tent-sites (perhaps some with caretakers) off the AT would go along way to dressing any aesthetic/environmental degradation, as well as improve the hard to define "thru hiker experience".
JohnnySnook
12-11-2014, 04:32
Are you actually suggesting hidden cameras on the A.T.? Most of us go hiking to get away from that sort of nonsense.
Okay, maybe hidden cameras was the wrong way to get my point across. Hidden cameras don't do any good on the trail. I should of said cameras at the shelters. Even fake cameras would make people respect the area more. Even real cameras that would really only be operational during peaking hiking times.
I do not want cameras all over the trail watching hikers. Just at shelters or highly used campsites that are abused by campers.
Just the site of a camera might influence a hiker not to take a dump right outside a shelter, leave trash laying around the shelter, or throwing it in the fire pit.
It's been proven even fake cameras and other methods can make people do the right thing.
What about a infrared camera that is mounted on top of the shelter. Most people have similar internal temperatures. If they step out of a shelter and p!SS right there they are recorded or maybe a speaker blasts a message for them to walk 200 feet into the woods. This would wake up other hikers and I bet that person will never p!$$ right outside of a shelter ever again.
Just think of options to keep things clean and natural.
I really don't want to be watched on my hike as that is what I want to get away from but at some point the trash and human waste left behind at shelters will not be pretty for humans or bears that come into the shelter areas looking for food.
rocketsocks
12-11-2014, 05:50
Okay, maybe hidden cameras was the wrong way to get my point across. Hidden cameras don't do any good on the trail. I should of said cameras at the shelters. Even fake cameras would make people respect the area more. Even real cameras that would really only be operational during peaking hiking times.
I do not want cameras all over the trail watching hikers. Just at shelters or highly used campsites that are abused by campers.
Just the site of a camera might influence a hiker not to take a dump right outside a shelter, leave trash laying around the shelter, or throwing it in the fire pit.
It's been proven even fake cameras and other methods can make people do the right thing.
What about a infrared camera that is mounted on top of the shelter. Most people have similar internal temperatures. If they step out of a shelter and p!SS right there they are recorded or maybe a speaker blasts a message for them to walk 200 feet into the woods. This would wake up other hikers and I bet that person will never p!$$ right outside of a shelter ever again.
Just think of options to keep things clean and natural.
I really don't want to be watched on my hike as that is what I want to get away from but at some point the trash and human waste left behind at shelters will not be pretty for humans or bears that come into the shelter areas looking for food.
Hey why stop there? How bout laser guided missiles to dispatch the irresponsible party right there on the spot...just vaporize the the SOB :rolleyes:
Starchild
12-11-2014, 09:22
Hey why stop there? How bout laser guided missiles to dispatch the irresponsible party right there on the spot...just vaporize the the SOB :rolleyes:
Interceptor missiles that would target what should be cat-holed away from the shelter before it hits the ground.
Now that would encourage proper waste management.
This thread is all kinds of interesting.
If you don't like the crowds, just hike a different trail.
kayak karl
12-11-2014, 13:56
If you don't like the crowds, just hike a different trail.
but then you won't be a thru hiker. the purist say "every white blaze", others say no blue blazes. not my feelings, but the posts on Whiteblaze do promote this type of thinking.
Hey, I just wanted to say thank you to all for your input. Just because I haven't responded doesn't mean that I'm not reading and appreciating all the feedback and ideas. Quite a few others on our staff and various trail-management/conservation committees are reading too. Although ATC did have an open panel discussion at The Gathering in October, beyond that we hadn't quite reached the point of actively reaching out for more feedback. Rick B. did that for us on his own--but the timing is probably just right. There will be much more dialog going forward, I hope.
There seems to be a lot of feeling on both sides that ATC and the trail community together can solve these new challenges, which Ron Tipton (ATC's executive director) and others are always quick to point out are also "opportunities."
Laurie P.
ATC
full conditions
12-11-2014, 14:33
If you don't like the crowds, just hike a different trail.
It's not a matter of not "liking the crowds". The crowds are causing real environmental damage to the trail environment and it goes way beyond aesthetics. We could avoid any restrictive regulations just by making better choices on when and where we begin our thru hikes. At this point, anyone who joins the March/April mob is choosing to part of the problem.
hikernutcasey
12-11-2014, 14:49
It's not a matter of not "liking the crowds". The crowds are causing real environmental damage to the trail environment and it goes way beyond aesthetics. We could avoid any restrictive regulations just by making better choices on when and where we begin our thru hikes. At this point, anyone who joins the March/April mob is choosing to part of the problem.I agree. The problem at hand is not trying to appease 100 new hikers every day trying to start on the same day. The problem is the impact and/or damage to the trail and surrounding areas these hikers create and what to do about it.
Spit Walker
12-11-2014, 15:04
The best and worst parts of the AT are the people.
Start pushing the Great Eastern Trail as an alternative:
http://www.greateasterntrail.net/
rocketsocks
12-11-2014, 15:37
It's not a matter of not "liking the crowds". The crowds are causing real environmental damage to the trail environment and it goes way beyond aesthetics. We could avoid any restrictive regulations just by making better choices on when and where we begin our thru hikes. At this point, anyone who joins the March/April mob is choosing to part of the problem.Many may need to start at these times for a many differing reasons, all anyone can really ask another to do is to consider the start time, and while it may affect the whole, It's a personal decision that no one need justify....either way it'll work out in the end, or it'll be worked out.
The ATC would need to think about awarding their 2000 miler certificate regardless of which trail the hiker chose.
The Benton MacKaye Trail would certainly solve the issue for those hikers looking for a more "wilderness" experience.Or it might just turn the Benton Mackaye trail into the same kind of circus their is on the AT.
A simple solution would be to get with these movie types and people that promote books and give the public the general impression that most people hike southbound. Most people do what they perceive to be normal and would follow suit.
Stalingrad
12-11-2014, 17:04
Dispersing the bubble could be easily done by encouraging college-aged students to start later. Most of them will plan to graduate or drop-out a semester early, just to start in March-April with everyone else. If we can promote a later start date (in May/June, after the spring semester) for young people, we could effectively split the bubble in two, with older folks starting in March/April, and younger folks starting in May/June. While this won’t reduce the total number of people who start at Springer it will disperse them and have a few other advantages.
For the young folks:
You’ll be starting when it’s warmer
You’ll have a couple extra months to plan/save up money
You won’t have to miss school or rush to graduate early
You’ll be more likely to find other people on the trail who are your age (this alone is probably the biggest selling-point)
You can take your following Fall semester off, if applicable/necessary
You can still make it to Katahdin before the park closes (those youthful legs and lack of funds will get you there in no time, right??)
For the other folks:
You won’t have to deal with the millennials until much later
There will be less of a crowd at the start
You’ll be less likely to find the ‘traveling partyer’ types
A good analogy would be that it’s like Adult Swim at the pool, only it lasts for a few months instead of a few minutes.
Another thing to keep in mind is that since college and high-school graduation dates vary wildly, the May/June bubble will probably be more dispersed than the March/April bubble.
I personally will be starting my thru-hike at Fontana Dam on May 4th (I already hiked from Springer-Fontana last August).
Sounds like a good plan but how do we fool those late starting millennials that the mid-Atlantic is not Godawful in July and August? :)
rocketsocks
12-11-2014, 17:49
Sounds like a good plan but how do we fool those late starting millennials that the mid-Atlantic is not Godawful in July and August? :)
last two weeks in July and 1st two weeks August is trail magic month...sponsored by Snikers and Budwiser.
Alligator
12-11-2014, 18:06
If you look at the 2000 miler stats on the ATC site, completions are broken out by percentages:65% are NOBOS, 10% SOBOs, 5% Flipfloppers and 20% are section hikers. So 16 out of 20 completions are thruhikers. Considering just the thruhikers 13 out 16 are NOBOS, 2 out of 16 are SOBOS and just 1 out 16 are flipfloppers. Now these are for completions but let's assume that drop out rates are roughly the same across these groups. Bronk just made a point about getting people to switch to SOBO and I think others have mentioned getting people to pick alternative routes and starting times. That's what needs to be promoted by hikers and the ATC-Alternate Itineraries. I know the ATC does this, maybe more could be done. Here's something to aim for. If 5 of those 13 NOBOS can be persuaded to go an alternative route, the number of NOBO thruhikers drops to 50%. And that's not from 65% (13 out 20) but from 81% (13 out 16 as I am talking about thruhikers). That's a 30% reduction in NOBOs. If the number of thruhiker starts was 3000 for the year, that would be 900 hikers moved to significantly different starting points and/or starting dates. That's substantially better than staggering hikers out by days at Springer. Take it even further, if there were just four accepted thruhiking itineraries, and hikers were persuaded enough that they ended up evenly picking all the routes, there would only be 4 out 16 hikers starting at Springer. That would be just 750 Springer starts for a year of 3000 thruhikers. That's still sufficient to maintain the social aspect of the trail. Plus, there would be potential short periods when the various groups passed one another.
I don't see this being accomplished without promotion though. If larger percentages of NOBOs keep finishing the trail, it just perpetuates the idea that NOBO is the way to hike the trail. Active effort needs to happen to better promote the alternatives. Here are just a few ideas to do that.
1. Hikers need to stop claiming that a thruhike is not a thruhike unless it starts at Springer and ends at Katahdin. Nothing wrong with SOBO right? A zero day for travel if you do the trail in pieces is no different than a NOBO taking a zero for whatever reason so nothing wrong with calling a flip-flop a thruhike either. Nobody's hike is exactly the same.
2. The ATC, in my view, chose to sidestep many of the ad nauseum arguments of what constitutes a thruhiker by adopting the definition "A thru-hiker is a hiker or backpacker who has completed or is attempting to walk the entire Appalachian Trail in a 12-month period (not necessarily a calendar year). " and also by giving recognition for completing the trail to 2000 milers. Maybe the ATC should make an official statement that finishing the trail over 12 months is a thruhike. It's a very wide intepretation and really does not downgrade anyone's hike, it's a big net.
3. Regretfully I have not been keeping up with reading my A.T. Journeys and so I am not sure if this is already being done, but strong emphasis by the ATC on the alternate itineraries would be a good plan. Really market it. Spotlight hikers who have opted different routes in blogs, the magazine, hiker gatherings, books, etc.
4. On the forum side of things, prospective hikers might utilize online resources to meetup when starting alternative routes. Past thruhikers might look to connect specifically with these prospective hikers to provide route specific advice. Section hikers as well can provide perspectives as their sections may have coincided with the alternate routes.
There's no wrong way to eat a Reese's!
rocketsocks
12-11-2014, 18:22
If you look at the 2000 miler stats on the ATC site, completions are broken out by percentages:65% are NOBOS, 10% SOBOs, 5% Flipfloppers and 20% are section hikers. So 16 out of 20 completions are thruhikers. Considering just the thruhikers 13 out 16 are NOBOS, 2 out of 16 are SOBOS and just 1 out 16 are flipfloppers. Now these are for completions but let's assume that drop out rates are roughly the same across these groups. Bronk just made a point about getting people to switch to SOBO and I think others have mentioned getting people to pick alternative routes and starting times. That's what needs to be promoted by hikers and the ATC-Alternate Itineraries. I know the ATC does this, maybe more could be done. Here's something to aim for. If 5 of those 13 NOBOS can be persuaded to go an alternative route, the number of NOBO thruhikers drops to 50%. And that's not from 65% (13 out 20) but from 81% (13 out 16 as I am talking about thruhikers). That's a 30% reduction in NOBOs. If the number of thruhiker starts was 3000 for the year, that would be 900 hikers moved to significantly different starting points and/or starting dates. That's substantially better than staggering hikers out by days at Springer. Take it even further, if there were just four accepted thruhiking itineraries, and hikers were persuaded enough that they ended up evenly picking all the routes, there would only be 4 out 16 hikers starting at Springer. That would be just 750 Springer starts for a year of 3000 thruhikers. That's still sufficient to maintain the social aspect of the trail. Plus, there would be potential short periods when the various groups passed one another.
I don't see this being accomplished without promotion though. If larger percentages of NOBOs keep finishing the trail, it just perpetuates the idea that NOBO is the way to hike the trail. Active effort needs to happen to better promote the alternatives. Here are just a few ideas to do that.
1. Hikers need to stop claiming that a thruhike is not a thruhike unless it starts at Springer and ends at Katahdin. Nothing wrong with SOBO right? A zero day for travel if you do the trail in pieces is no different than a NOBO taking a zero for whatever reason so nothing wrong with calling a flip-flop a thruhike either. Nobody's hike is exactly the same.
2. The ATC, in my view, chose to sidestep many of the ad nauseum arguments of what constitutes a thruhiker by adopting the definition "A thru-hiker is a hiker or backpacker who has completed or is attempting to walk the entire Appalachian Trail in a 12-month period (not necessarily a calendar year). " and also by giving recognition for completing the trail to 2000 milers. Maybe the ATC should make an official statement that finishing the trail over 12 months is a thruhike. It's a very wide intepretation and really does not downgrade anyone's hike, it's a big net.
3. Regretfully I have not been keeping up with reading my A.T. Journeys and so I am not sure if this is already being done, but strong emphasis by the ATC on the alternate itineraries would be a good plan. Really market it. Spotlight hikers who have opted different routes in blogs, the magazine, hiker gatherings, books, etc.
4. On the forum side of things, prospective hikers might utilize online resources to meetup when starting alternative routes. Past thruhikers might look to connect specifically with these prospective hikers to provide route specific advice. Section hikers as well can provide perspectives as their sections may have coincided with the alternate routes.
There's no wrong way to eat a Reese's!
Excellent ideas and one bold notable that really stands out for me a easy implemented and viable plan starting...right away.
freightliner
12-11-2014, 19:03
I think you guys are really overthinking all of this. A quick way to help thin out the herd is for the ATC to have a calendar on their website. When you're picking your start date you go to that calendar day and you put your name down you'll know how many people out there are starting on that day. If you see on Saturday there's 50 people but on Sunday there's only 10 people well logically you could move your day. You have to sign up first on this calendar in order to get your certificate and credit for thru hike. There will be people who don't but for the most part it should help out.
No one hikes the AT anymore...it's too crowded!
Yogi Berra, AT hiker
;)
Starchild
12-11-2014, 19:17
I think you guys are really overthinking all of this. A quick way to help thin out the herd is for the ATC to have a calendar on their website. When you're picking your start date you go to that calendar day and you put your name down you'll know how many people out there are starting on that day. If you see on Saturday there's 50 people but on Sunday there's only 10 people well logically you could move your day. You have to sign up first on this calendar in order to get your certificate and credit for thru hike. There will be people who don't but for the most part it should help out.
I think you may be operating under the assumption that all/most hikers don't want to start with 50 or so others and would prefer 10 or so. Unless you logically move your day, in your example, from Sunday to Saturday in which cased I misunderstood you and you example could let the 'herd' now when is the best day to start to be in the greatest crowd.
Conventional NoBo includes a social communal aspect, some people are attracted to that. How many IDK but it seems to be a reason for the NoBo bubble and the issue we are now discussing.
Starchild
12-11-2014, 19:20
Let me try this again - I italicized the difference (and I can not edit the above):
I think you may be operating under the assumption that all/most hikers don't want to start with 50 or so others and would prefer 10 or so. Unless you mean that people want to hike in the larger crowd, in which case your system would have people switching from Sunday to Sat, leaving Sunday a day with few hikers.
Conventional NoBo includes a social communal aspect, some people are attracted to that. How many IDK but it seems to be a reason for the NoBo bubble and the issue we are now discussing.
Great to see their is a lot of support for flip-flop thru-hikes here. ATC has gradually been increasing our promotion of flip-flops in recent years, especially when we had discussions with the first movie producer who was planning to film A Walk in the Woods several years ago. (But that wasn't the only reason we've been promoting flip-flops). We ramped things up further when the it was clear the movie was going forward about a year. Here are some things we have done and are in the works:
Detailed itineraries of suggested flip-flops at appalachiantrail.org/hiking/thru-section-hiking/when-where-to-start (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/hiking/thru-section-hiking/when-where-to-start)
Full-length article about "alternative" thru-hikes in A.T. Journeys last March, PDF here (http://www.appalachiantrail.org/docs/default-document-library/alternative_thru-hikes_atjourneysmarapr_2014.pdf?sfvrsn=0)
Small highlight of record-number of 2014 flip-floppers reaching Harpers Ferry in another issue 2014
Contact info for recent flip-floppers that future flip-floppers can talk to, along with some tips.
Flip-Flop Kick-Off Event planned for May 2 this year in Harpers Ferry to promote and support flip-floppers starting in the middle (but other itineraries as well).
We do need to do a lot more to promote flip-flopping and there are some great suggestions above, but the May event will give us a good opportunity to talk about flip-flopping and why we're promoting it.
Any more suggestions are welcome. Feedback from those who have done flip-flops is welcome too. For the record, whenever a flip-flopper comes through Harpers Ferry, I almost always make a point of talking to them, and have done so pretty much since I began in my position in way back in the '90s.
One note: We are most intent on promoting intentional flip-flops that start somewhere other than Georgia in March and the first half of April. While we love those March and April nobo starters that flip from ATC in Harpers Ferry and end here (or really any type of flip-floppers) these hikers (which are really the common type of flip-floppers) don't help disperse the crowds so much where it's really needed.
If there are any flip-floppers (especially the intentionally flip-floppers, but also the others) who are interested in helping with the May 2 event (participating in a panel, supporting those starting out, or helping in other ways), let me know (
[email protected] or 304-535-2200 x128).
Laurie P.
ATC
Starchild
12-11-2014, 20:01
I have a thru hiker who's trail friends flip say to me he would rather die then flipflop and continued. He did make it with 2 weeks to spare.
But I think the term Flipflop may be problematic as it is associated with running out of time and needing to modify the hike.
Perhaps another term is needed.
Lone Wolf
12-11-2014, 20:13
the majority of folks that want to thru hike wanna do it the traditional way. georgia to maine starting feb-apr and the majority have never done any LD hiking or any overnight hiking for that matter. flip flopping, SOBOing or "alternate" routes are not something anybody is gonna sell them. what the AT needs in first 300 miles or so for 2 months is a caretaker (babysitter) at every shelter, more privies at each shelter and all fire pits destroyed at shelters. NO FIRES ALLOWED. they're comin' to georgia every year in bigger numbers. most of them don't come to WB, FB, TJ, etc. for info
Seatbelt
12-11-2014, 20:23
the majority of folks that want to thru hike wanna do it the traditional way. georgia to maine starting feb-apr and the majority have never done any LD hiking or any overnight hiking for that matter. flip flopping, SOBOing or "alternate" routes are not something anybody is gonna sell them. what the AT needs in first 300 miles or so for 2 months is a caretaker (babysitter) at every shelter, more privies at each shelter and all fire pits destroyed at shelters. NO FIRES ALLOWED. they're comin' to georgia every year in bigger numbers. most of them don't come to WB, FB, TJ, etc. for info
The Georgia AT Club has a sizable number of active "trail-runners" now. They could possibly be given some authority if necessary to enforce some regulation.
In the past the ATC did not define a "Thru-hike" but the consensus was that it was straight north to south or south to north hike. A few years ago the ATC actually stated on their website that a thru-hike was hiking the complete trail in one year. Reinforcing this definition might help further alternative hikes.
Starchild
12-11-2014, 20:45
The Georgia AT Club has a sizable number of active "trail-runners" now. They could possibly be given some authority if necessary to enforce some regulation.
I believe giving them some such authority would be difficult and impractical.
MuddyWaters
12-11-2014, 20:53
Shelter caretakers would solve a lot of the problems. Of course they are funded by $5-10 per night charge. I can feel the crowds dispersing now. Unlike parts of trail where you dont have much choice, in the first 1000 miles you certainly do. No one would stay at shelter unless it was raining.
Thru hikers are a tiny fraction of the trails users. It is flawed thinking to believe they should be catered to, or allowed to do whatever they want, when they begin to impact the user experience of the general population. In the spring they are far past that point already.
Permits, wag bags, bear cans, LNT training, policing by officials , all can be done.
I am not opposed to any if it improves trail conditions and the education level of the user. More shelters is not an answer.
Ill repeat myself, yosemite and the JMT handle these numbers of hikers per day with no issues. There are no privies, no shelters, and the trail is litter free.
Shelter caretakers would solve a lot of the problems. Of course they are funded by $5-10 per night charge. I can feel the crowds dispersing now. Unlike parts of trail where you dont have much choice, in the first 1000 miles you certainly do. No one would stay at shelter unless it was raining.
Thru hikers are a tiny fraction of the trails users. It is flawed thinking to believe they should be catered to, or allowed to do whatever they want, when they begin to impact the user experience of the general population. In the spring they are far past that point already.
Plenty of other areas for "the general population" to hike.
Lone Wolf seems to make a great deal of sense. If you accept that the number of hikers is not the problem but rather the cause of problems, why not talk about the specifics?
Since I have never been there in the spring, I can only use my imagination.
That said, I cannot imagine how gross the shelters up this way would be without privies, and how ugly the areas around them would be if fires were common.
Such "authority" isn't a good response.
I was present, at the first arrest at a National Park.
Maybe that is necessary. It was a very bad, a very dangerous situation.
Now, there are citations handed out by "back country" rangers. At least, I was asked to accept that job, at a different national park. I did not accept. Tickets for not putting food in the bear containers. Tickets for improper use of "available" wood, and, tickets for campfires. I couldn't do that.
I said, What happened to the friendly ranger that tells you the right way, in a helpful manner? who shows you?
I got no answer.
I am saying, this thread already has answers. The answer to the problem is all those answers, not "authority".
MuddyWaters
12-11-2014, 21:25
Plenty of other areas for "the general population" to hike.
That is the viewpoint of a self-centered person who clearly does not grasp the overall issue.
Odd Man Out
12-11-2014, 21:31
Flip-Flop Kick-Off Event planned for May 2 this year in Harpers Ferry to promote and support flip-floppers starting in the middle (but other itineraries as well).
If I were to thru hike, this is what I would do. And on the ATC site, they call this the "Head Start" hike (HF-ME/HF-GA). If they had a party the first week of May to kick things off, all the better.
Interceptor missiles that would target what should be cat-holed away from the shelter before it hits the ground.
Now that would encourage proper waste management.
Very Good Thread and some good ideas coming out. More privies would be a good first step.
Not a new thought and it does work LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lmu24B1X6k
Starchild
12-11-2014, 22:00
Very Good Thread and some good ideas coming out. More privies would be a good first step.
Not a new thought and it does work LOL
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Lmu24B1X6k
Remember no drones allowed at least in the Smokies ;)
That is the viewpoint of a self-centered person who clearly does not grasp the overall issue.
I am not so sure it is an easy issue to understand.
It is easy to say that crowds are the issue, but how so exactly?
Is the problem is that local hikers can't find a place to pitch a tent?
That the campsites are full of human waste?
That wide-eyed new thru hikers are having trouble reconciling their preconceptions with reality?
What specific issues need to be addressed?
I don't know. I am not familiar wth the AT in Georgia in the Spring.
MuddyWaters
12-11-2014, 22:34
I am not so sure it is an easy issue to understand.
It is easy to say that crowds are the issue, but how so exactly?
Is the problem is that local hikers can't find a place to pitch a tent?
That the campsites are full of human waste?
That wide-eyed new thru hikers are having trouble reconciling their preconceptions with reality?
What specific issues need to be addressed?
I don't know. I am not familiar wth the AT in Georgia in the Spring.
To be fair, the average thruhiker isnt worse than the average car camper or slovenly weekend hiker. There are just many of them so their effect is magnified over a short time span.
The issue , is one of respect for the trail and environment impact, respect for other users and those that will come after them, respect for the volunteers that have to clean up and pack out discarded trash, gear, and clothing. Not to mention the poor volunteers that clean trash out of privies.
The unfortunate truth, is that when you put a building and toilet in the woods, it changes how people behave. They forget they are in the woods. They KNOW someone will clean up behind them so they are less conscious of their aftermath.
The social aspect of the AT is its unique point, but it has its downsides.
A misplaced concept of their own importance, as well as group-think exascerbate the issues.
Kaptain Kangaroo
12-11-2014, 23:02
I think I'm more optimistic than most here that we could find a solution to the problem without an excess of regimentation, unless the authoritarians in our society impose the regimentation for its own sake[1]. The burden simply isn't that great. Even now, the A-T is no Half Dome in Yosemite. Thru-hikers start north over a period of a couple of months - let's say 60 days to make the arithmetic easy. Let's say that 3,000 of them start north over that time. That's fifty a day. If they make ten-mile days, that's five per mile on average. This isn't an utterly horrible crowd, particularly since everyone is moving in the same direction at more or less the same speed. You might overtake or be overtaken by another group once or twice an hour. This is not the experience of waiting in line at Disneyland!
Where the problem comes in is at the choke points, which in today's Trail are the shelters and hostels. These facilities are not scaled to the level of use that the Trail gets in a peak season. ...........
Good points....... perhaps adding more campsites but removing all shelters in the first couple of hundred miles could help. This would spread out the usage and also help thin out the numbers more quickly.... nothing like a couple of cold, wet nights in a tent to sort people out !!!
Plenty of other areas for "the general population" to hike.
Lone Wolf seems to make a great deal of sense. If you accept that the number of hikers is not the problem but rather the cause of problems, why not talk about the specifics?
Since I have never been there in the spring, I can only use my imagination.
That said, I cannot imagine how gross the shelters up this way would be without privies, and how ugly the areas around them would be if fires were common.
I left the Hiker Hostel for Springer on April 7, the Wednesday after Easter Sunday with 6 other hikers. Shelters were filled to capacity every night until past the Smokies. I usually slept in my tent. Privies were almost overflowing at most sites. On Saturday, April 10, I camped at Low Gap shelter. There must have been 50 tents spread out. The shelter was full. The bear cables could not handle everyones food bags because of the shear number. That first week in addition to NOBO's there were about 5 boy scout troops and numerous college kids out for spring break. Shelter sites and fire rings were full of trash. Not just your usual unburnable aluminum, but discarded gear like ripped tents, plastic tarps, fuel canisters, etc.
fiddlehead
12-11-2014, 23:40
Two major problems come to my mind regarding over crowding of the trails:
Crime and health issues related to privy problems (lack of, or over full)
I've hiked in Europe and see what they do when there are no privys: they **** anywhere and everywhere and it there is NOTHING cool about it!
Telling people to bury it is one thing, giving them no options is another.
Crime is a whole nuther problem.
And a tough one.
No one wants the law at shelters (at least I don't)
But we also want to feel safe from the bad guys.
Cameras are most likely in the future. As much as we don't want them, they are a crime deterrent.
I can only hope the ATC makes good choices.
rocketsocks
12-11-2014, 23:45
Every hiker should wear a go pro camera on their sternum strap to catch all the infractions of others...NOT
squeezebox
12-11-2014, 23:48
In a large part of this stuff. I'm thinking of doing a flip flop Starting a Harpers Ferry May 1 , who wants to come along.
Seriously consider starting at a different place at a different time.
Sarcasm the elf
12-12-2014, 00:05
Every hiker should wear a go pro camera on their sternum strap to catch all the infractions of others...NOT
Wearing a go-pro would only serve to remind people like you and me of just how slow we're walking. :eek:
Besides, if someone actually wanted to use security cameras to deter crime on the A.T., the best location for them would at the trailheads and parking lots.
rocketsocks
12-12-2014, 00:11
Wearing a go-pro would only serve to remind people like you and me of just how slow we're walking. :eek:
Besides, if someone actually wanted to use security cameras to deter crime on the A.T., the best location for them would at the trailheads and parking lots.I'd love to see cameras at parking lots, tired of worrying about break-ins every time I wanna go on a walk about, but at shelters or remote back country locations...no way, it would bring a tear to my eye.
I'd love to see cameras at parking lots, tired of worrying about break-ins every time I wanna go on a walk about, but at shelters or remote back country locations...no way, it would bring a tear to my eye.
Good call Socks, backcountry relies on the hikers ie the ones that walk through the forest, day to day to maintain order. When parking lots. etc, etc, the Local LEA needs to be present.
jacob_springsteen
12-12-2014, 01:44
I'm probably very confused here, but don't the day-trippers and weekenders still way outnumber the thrus? Are we considering what is actually a limited, local problem of the thru-hiker bubble in the first couple of hundred miles of trail, or does the perceived overuse problem extend beyond that?
That is what I don't get. The AT is crossed by many roads and many trailheads as such. The amount of dayhikers and section hikers are larger than the thru-hiker litany.
Johnny Thunder
12-12-2014, 03:48
the majority of folks that want to thru hike wanna do it the traditional way. georgia to maine starting feb-apr and the majority have never done any LD hiking or any overnight hiking for that matter. flip flopping, SOBOing or "alternate" routes are not something anybody is gonna sell them. what the AT needs in first 300 miles or so for 2 months is a caretaker (babysitter) at every shelter, more privies at each shelter and all fire pits destroyed at shelters. NO FIRES ALLOWED. they're comin' to georgia every year in bigger numbers. most of them don't come to WB, FB, TJ, etc. for info
lonewolf nailed it. the group of current year through hikers in no way resembles the population of whiteblaze posters (and lurkers). i know this because in 2008 whiteblaze was considered a bunch of cantankerous arguers and in 2013 it wasn't considered at all (ok, a section hiker asked me if i knew about the site) (boom! mileage drop!). so, consider that before you go off the rails devising exciting online education programs or calendars to register your start date. most current year hikers are just not going to see that stuff to know that they are or aren't doing something the "right" way.
(a side note: i don't know who all these "college aged" hikers are that are mucking up the trail with their april 1st start dates. i've never seen them. most nobo hikers start when they do because it a. makes sense and b. is the most fun and least struggle. i don't know how a "college aged" person would be able to start april 1st and still attend school.)
if you want to reach hikers you have to go where they are. put someone at each shelter, hostel, and feed from springer to franklin armed with an armful of awful robert service poems and an obnoxious (to-be-delivered-by-bullhorn) speech about leave no trace. double up the efforts on rainy nights by deploying auxiliary lecturers to every culvert, pavilion, and band shell in a 10 mile line from the ridge. then empower people further up the trail to enforce the rules.
also, pave the trail. stopping short of that: build more shelters, more established camp sites, and sweeter smelling privies. folks are coming and there's just no way you're going to stop that. make the controlled places to congregate more accessible and convenient (i'm looking at you, 1.2 miles off the trail shelter in georgia) and they'll cut down on the overuse of uncontrolled campsites. pull out the fire rings at each shelter and you'll have another two or three established tent spots on beat-to-death dirt.
the permit idea is intriguing but i don't see how you're going to get that information dispersed widely enough to avoid creating a general attitude of outlawism among the sorts of people that just read a blog site, quit their job, pack up, and go down to georgia (a mentality which i can say is by far in the majority). 2013 was one of the first years (if not the first) for the new smokie's permit and people made it franklin without knowing about it. how are you going to make sure everyone arrives at springer with all their ducks in a row? also, how are you going to enforce a permit or stamp program that traverses thousands of linear miles through multiple state and national forests and parks?
"oh no, sir. i wasn't hiking the appalachian trail. i was just standing on a bunch of leaves in close vicinity to something that looks like a trail."
education is your only out. you get most of the current year hikers to buy into lnt and you'll see that become the norm. people are wasters on a social hike because their friends and peers allow them to be wasters.
i spent a moderate amount of time discussing this problem with other hikers in 2013. most hikers recognize it to be a developing and expanding issue...even the ones who burn plastic trash or misuse shelters.
illabelle
12-12-2014, 06:42
Reading through the comments, we seem to have opinions all over the place, and so far, I don't see us approaching consensus. Some advocate for regulation and increased monitoring; some advocate for changes to the number and placement of campsites, shelters, and privies (both "tear 'em down" and "build a lot more"); others advocate for education (more, better, or different).
I fall in this last group. It's probably true that the bulk of trail users aren't on WB and aren't exposed to this discussion, but they are getting information from somewhere. Is it a movie? the GSMNP website? a book they picked up? A lot of people have heard of the AT, but they don't just wake up one morning at Springer. They first have to figure out how to get to Springer, so they are asking questions somewhere.
Seems like we need to have good information where they can easily find it while they're in the planning stages. The most important topic (from what I've read so far) is dispersing the crowd, accomplished by starting elsewhere, starting at a different time, or taking an alternate route (the BMT). Motivation to do so is created by relaying an un-exaggerated illustrated account of the nastiness, overcrowding, and discomfort associated with the typical springtime congregation of thrus, spring breakers, and Boy Scouts. Imagine a free brochure, widely available online and at every outfitter titled, "Thinking about Springer? Think Again: the dirty details". In it they read about sleeping in a badly located tent because all the good spots were taken. They read about stepping out for a midnight pee and stepping in ... something. They read about getting to the resupply point and all the food is gone. Then they read suggestions for how to avoid all this (SOBO, flip-flop, BMT), and how to find more information about those options.
LNT educators and enforcers don't help much if the hiker is already on the trail. If the privy is full, what do we expect them to do about it? Their energy and time are consumed just getting from point A to point B.
50 people per day may start the JMT during the summer months. There is not a tiny fraction of the problems the AT experiences.
Why?
1. Permits regulate persons entry points to spread them out
2. There are no shelters to serve as aggregating points
3. Hikers are instructed in where is permissible to camp for minimal damage
4. Rangers patrol the trail
5. The hikers are more sophisticated on average, and committed to protect the awesome area they are hiking thru
6. There is no travelling party mentallity
7. Far less poorly prepared people show up
8. Little road access
9. Managing agencies are committed to protecting the environment and the wilderness user experience.
The JMT works because all of these but can be summed up in one of them - #9 . The basis for the JMT's success and all the other eight posits is #9. The NPS operates under the mandate: "to conserve the scenery and the natural and historic objects and wildlife therein, and to provide for the enjoyment of the same in such manner and by such means as will leave them unimpaired for the enjoyment of future generations. Carefully note what is mentioned first in the mandate - to conserve the scenery and the natural objects and wildlife therein. Note the placement and emphasis on "unimpaired."
The NPS manages the JMT so well through a balancing of conservation, preservation, and human recreation. The JMT is managed by the NPS from the perspective that conservation of Nature is of prime importance. Conservation and preservation are not ancillary objectives. Nature(the outdoors) is not merely the backdrop. Nor does the NPS mandate exist to solely protect Nature(the outdoors) for man but also from man. The NPS does not operate under an extreme human centric management mandate. That is, Nature is conserved for Nature's sake! The NPS knows very well "the" greatest threats to complying with the mandate often come from humanity itself. That is why the NPS takes extensive action to address this - proactively - as a stipulation for entry.
While the NPS does hope that all will come to love the woods(Nature). They don't leave it there! They do discourage visitors - visitors that threaten the mandate. The NPS doesn't mistakenly assume that all will eventually come to a point where they desire to protect Nature. The know some of humanity will come to a different desire - the desire to exploit Nature solely for human gain. Nor does the NPS idly "wait" for a respect for Nature to develop in visitors. NO, the NPS expects visitors to respect Nature as a condition of entry! The NPS may not define what it does as bombarding potential visitors with "the good word" but they certainly sow the "good word" AND directly impart it often as a stipulation for entry. While the NPS understands mistakes will be made they don't leave it there. They intentionally proactively takes steps to prevent mistakes - mistakes made out of ignorance that harm the environment and all wilderness users experiences current and into the future. They do it by requiring not only permits but by educating PRE HIKE PRE ENTRY. When permits are obtained knowledge, considerations, education, and yes, some rules are communicated, agreed to/consented to/understood by the person(s) seeking entry through a verbal and/or signatured agreement. If that small spark is to be stoked it has to be done in a way that does protect the resource from the potentially destructive visitor.
Now, contrast the execution of the NPS mandate in regards to managemnt of the JMT with the primary management goals of the AT ouside of the regulation free areas of the two NPs, the SPs, and the White Mountains. What I see is a managment style that is primarily catering to accomodating humans. Note all the problems discussed with the AT here. They all are stemming from humanity. Note the majority of the potential solutions offered. It seems like they all are based on perpetually greater accomodations for greater human usage. It seems like a slippery slope for the future of AT indeed.
Seatbelt
12-12-2014, 09:21
I believe giving them some such authority would be difficult and impractical.
How are you going to have rules such as "No fires Allowed" or like the ones in GSMNP without enforcers?? Just a waste of time without some kind of authority given to someone to enforce it.. We can wish and hope and teach all we want, But somebody has to follow up.
Lone Wolf
12-12-2014, 09:25
yup. gonna need a caretaker at every shelter and designated campsite for the first 200 miles or so for at least 6 weeks.plus a bunch of ridgerunners
Starchild
12-12-2014, 09:34
The more I think about it the more I am inclined to encourage the traditional NoBo. Do not disperse the crowd. If possible build up this area to accommodate the numbers and use this as a chance to meet ATC, trail clubs and the trail angel community that will be with them for the duration of their thru. This is a chance to start them off right and a educational opportunity.
If this crowd of inexperienced hikers is dispersed they will do what inexperienced hikers will do all over the trail and their will be much less change to mediate any damage and less chance to educate and let them know that they are just a part of a larger community that supports the AT experience.
"Now, contrast the execution of the NPS mandate in regards to managemnt of the JMT with the primary management goals of the AT ouside of the regulation free areas of the two NPs, the SPs, and the White Mountains. What I see is a managment style that is primarily catering to accomodating humans. Note all the problems discussed with the AT here. They all are stemming from humanity. Note the majority of the potential solutions offered. It seems like they all are based on perpetually greater accomodations for greater human usage. It seems like a slippery slope for the future of AT indeed."
I do not know, if the organizations that have the most impact on the AT have a real committment to.
I look at so many posts, and, so many photos. I see a "spring break" party attitude, with some walking, if that.
In fact, it looks like bums having a drunk.
I started out wearing old clothes and having hand-me-down clothing and gear for a hike. Did I look like a bum?
I don't think the actual thru-hikers, or, section hikers, show up for such a party.
This is the "image" you present to the world. Look at the results. Why are you surprised?
Most people visit a forum to see what is there. They do not comment.
I don't see trash and abuse you describe, anywhere, because campgrounds are closed, access roads are closed, arrests are made, there are fines. There are laws and town ordinances for vagrancy. Vagrants are jailed.
Police? Apparently, your "trail towns" want the crowds.
If you cared about overuse of the trail, you would have permits.
Have thru-hiker permits. Have section hiker permits.
full conditions
12-12-2014, 11:21
Many may need to start at these times for a many differing reasons, all anyone can really ask another to do is to consider the start time, and while it may affect the whole, It's a personal decision that no one need justify....either way it'll work out in the end, or it'll be worked out.
Yes, I fully understand that most thru hikers need to start in March and April - I get that. What you don't seem to get is that if we don't regulate ourselves by employing different thru hike strategies (some of which have been listed on the ATC's website) and making better choices, someone else is going to be making those choices for us. Consider this- most thru hikers I've met over the years bristle at the notion of having to get a permit to hike thru the Smokies and Shennandoah and they chafe at being told where they can camp and having to stay in certain shelters, or having to pay to camp in the Greens and Whites, etc.. . My point is that we can avoid making this become a reality for the entire trail by starting our long distance hikes and non-traditional locations and using a little bit more creativity in putting together our itineraries. It's kind of a failure of imagination on a grand scale.
People complain about permits at SNP? They are self issue, no fee, and no quota permits available where the AT enters the park! I guess some people will complain about anything...
Just Bill
12-12-2014, 11:41
Lone Wolf makes a good point-
People want to hike a certain way, there isn't much you can do to stop them. Direct action is the only solution.
Johnny Thunder makes a decent observation-
Nobody knows exactly who the herd is. Or how they got there. I think WB could be and is a factor, but not a big one. I've done a few WB experiments as well, it seems to be a site people use but prefer not to disclose they use on the trail- but that is neither here nor there. Although Gator could likely give us a decent picture in noting how many new users join the site each year and how many stay past a year. Perhaps even the increase in traffic we all note from fall to spring. We all note the hopefuls who join, enthusiastically post/question/query and maybe even hike but are never heard from again.
Something for WB's to consider- why do people never return, and why are users ashamed to admit they use the site. HF is a nice site that encourages newbies, WB often is not. Or perhaps people simply move on, enjoy the woods, and put down the computer.
In fairness though- I will note that Georgia is easily my least favorite place on the trail. Even in June, local partiers and weekenders trash the trail. Dealing with local's is a local problem. But I note with sadness the little bundles of neatly compacted trash hidden amongst the trash often enough as well. And I too have had the conversation with the hiker around the fire disparaging the conditions, as he thoughtlessly slips his mountain house pouch into the pit.
Illabelle also reinforces-
Education and outreach to these folks, no matter how they arrive is important. In particular education as to the realities of the trail.
Dogwood-
To stick with the religious analogy- The JMT is the Vatican, you need only look to the fella it's named for to understand it's mission and sacred trust. The AT is a trail carved out of one of the most highly populated and damaged pieces of earth on the planet, reclaimed for the enjoyment of the people. It's a special place, but a different kind of special. It was meant to be a place to welcome the city man back to the woods. And to a certain extent- rebuild not only the woods we travel, but the traveler themselves. It's mission is not to protect untrammeled wilderness from humans, but to protect trammeled and downtrodden humans from town.
That said- a permit for start dates wouldn't be hard to enforce overall and is a solid idea in general.
To say nothing of the fact that it is a fact of life nearly everywhere else we travel.
Kill two birds with one stone-
Adopt the approach trail as part of the AT. End the age old debate on if the Approach trail "counts" or is "required". Just add it and be done with it- shelters already exist. It would have the "unintended" ;) benefit of kindly reminding those who can't walk up the stairs that maybe they might want to rethink this journey. It is also a paved location for friends and family to wish dropped off hikers well without impacting the forest service road or camp area just north of Springer.
Shut down the FS road to access Springer from March to June. This forces people who don't know about it to go the Amicalola, where parking, visitor's center and other services already exist. Including a Ranger staffed sign in. Add space if needed for a "waiting room" to camp at for the inevitable folks who don't have a start date permit.
Require a reserved start date and Thru-Hike permit. Period.
Said permit could come with some potential attractive features;
Like a designated camp site for the first night.
Entry preference and pre-registration for the Smokies
Registration with ATC and even a free bonus gift or membership if they reach Harper's Ferry.
A passport (not that I am a fan, but if the ATC is promoting the passport system- why not make the permit the only way to receive one?)
A copy of AWOL's book or the fold up wall map or other gifts to encourage purchase of the permit.
The fee should also be waived for those who accept out of season NOBO, SOBO, or other alternative hike schedules.
As Lone Wolf said- without ranger or ridgerunner enforcement it's an empty gesture.
As Johnny mentioned- there is always that group that just shows up- no biggie. Park them in the "waiting camp" and have them sign up.
This would put ATC in a relevant and critical position- it would also put trail data in their hand via the permit system and deliver traffic to their site. It would serve as the gateway to the outreach the ATC wants to do. And it would start the conversation about impact, a conversation that can deepen as the program ages.
With relevant data and actual users they could then allocate/request funds across all agencies to address privy and fixed camp issues. They can also go to other donors with specific project proposals. The cook county forest preserve here solved a good deal of their litter problem simply installing an overabundance of garbage cans at trail heads and access points. Yes, somebody has to pick it up- but cheaper for them to send the garbage truck around than divert existing manpower to hand pick up litter with sticks and bags. And for that- the local county prison system and enforced community service program does the job quite nicely at little expense.
You will always find the odd grumbler or pirate dodging any rule- that's life. We are country founded by people who were grumblers and pirates who did their own thing. There are plenty who show up at permitted entry points and get turned away, I've been one of them. I've even dodged said permits in my day. Most comply though, most have a greater fear of not being able to start and generally follow rules. Works fine for the JMT as many point out. Even if you only saw 50% compliance the first year that would be a vast improvement. Be a little lax the first year, be friendly and forgiving- but it wouldn't take more than five years to find yourself with a generally complied with system.
If somebody says screw it, I'm starting at Fontana and skipping this Georgia permit BS- you still solved your problem. These folks will be a-holes regardless. They will chafe at the AMC huts, camp 100' from a caretaker to save $5, and do what they do. This population already exists, it won't get any bigger with a permit, it will just add the permit to their list of perceived grievances.
The Smokies permit fails because there is no physical place to comply, not even a self registration box like the Shennies- The AT has a physical place in Amicalola.
The Smokies permit fails because it is practically impossible to determine your date of entry. Not so for an AT permit- it's your first day- and even Bryson's buddy Katz could tell you what day they plan to start.
It also fails because it rubs the wrong way with hikers in general- "You can't tell me where to stay", generally means, "I got no F'ing idea where I will end up- and that's part of the reason I'm hiking." A Thru-hike permit would only limit starters per day, and first night shelter choice. From there you're on your own.
Eventually-
Maybe MacKaye's original vision will come to pass, of some fixed camps with outreach and education dotted along the way.
The AT is a gateway trail, Georgia is the doormat. It is what it is- simply adding somebody to the front stoop to shake hands, politely greet, and gently redirect would go a long way to stopping that doormat from getting so caked with mud the whole house is trashed. As DLP and DW point out- First impressions not only count, but set the tone. The JMT does this well.
You can either ask your guests to take off their shoes at the door, or spend your life washing the floor. And the funny thing- most every visitor is happy to comply with your request- all you gotta do is ask.
Keep these excellent suggestions, observations, insights, and analogies coming.
swisscross
12-12-2014, 12:55
If the numbers continue to grow as they predict the only reasonable way to slow down the impact is permitting and limiting the numbers of starters at Springer. If you are dead set on the AT and don't want to deal with the permitting process then a flip flop or Southbound we go.
I also believe by permitting the thru's will allow a pamphlet of sort to be sent to them regarding LNT and limiting the human impact.
The ATC needs to do something proactive before the numbers get truly out of hand.
I would hate for the AT have the regulations similar to the JMT, Wonderland, Glacier or the like but I would also hate to lose the lure and history of the trail due to a few bad eggs.
peakbagger
12-12-2014, 13:02
Not just an issue at Springer
http://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/107864-Baxter-State-Park-AT-concerns-Wow
Start date permits will lead to overall quotas - bad idea and a lazy fix. Sharing data and ideas so people can make better informed decisions is different and good.
Problem is NOT the number of people, number of people is CAUSE of problems.
Identify ACTUAL problems -- specific issues-- and adress them. Do so in a way that will yield SIGNIFICANT results like Lone Wolf's approach would.
Recognize that more people on the AT can be good for the environment. Examples of people whose environmental ethic was magnified by the Trail abound. Some are making enormouse contributions, with a few are even preserving thousands of acres near the AT. We should look to make the AT even more accessible to ALL doing so will make for a better trail and a better country.
Recognize that the AT has many dimensions and characteristics. Those of one stretch does not define it. It is not at all comparable to the JMT.
Make Georgia a high priority. It matters even for those of us who have zero desire to head there again. The ATC has something like a $7 million dollar budget. How much is being applied to making things better in Georgia?
Listen to Lone Wolf.
I don't know what the solution is, but it is obvious the current status of the trail is overcrowded.
Just off the top of my head solution:
Have the trail clubs issue thru-hike permits. I know, I know...
Have the trail clubs offer days of trail clean-up or some form of service to have a thru-hike permit. You must become a club member, work, then receive a permit. I don't think this is a permanent solution, but a temporary solution until....
How would this be enforced?
Lone Wolf
12-12-2014, 13:35
permits will not work
I think the ATC would go a long way towards promoting southbound thruhikes if there were more of a monument at Springer than just the metal plaque. People hike north to katadyn so they can take their picture standing in front of that sign. If there were a similar sign on Springer it might equate the two termini in people's minds...right now, Springer is thought of as the start and that sign atop katadyn is thought of as the end.
permits will not work
My fear if some type of permit or limited system were initiated, say starting in 2016, there would be a rush of people hiking in 2015.
I don't know what the solution is, but it is obvious the current status of the trail is overcrowded.
Just off the top of my head solution:
Have the trail clubs issue thru-hike permits. I know, I know...
Have the trail clubs offer days of trail clean-up or some form of service to have a thru-hike permit. You must become a club member, work, then receive a permit. I don't think this is a permanent solution, but a temporary solution until....
How would this be enforced?
Dumb idea... you might not be aware of this but there are many people who thru-hike who live NOWHERE near the trail. so now with your idea they have to join some trail club, pay dues, and then some how come out to do there "work" before then know if they get to thru-hike??? give me a break ??
full conditions
12-12-2014, 14:06
permits will not work
That's exactly right. The extraordinarily linear nature of the AT "park" with its' virtually infinite access opportunities makes the kind of permit system most of us are used to seeing in national parks, unworkable. When serious regulation comes to Chattahoochee National Forest, it will come in the guise of highly regulated camping opportunities with quotas and with offenders being frog marched out by law enforcement rangers. I'll say this one more time. We (the trail community) can do a lot to mitigate these problems before they lead to draconian and codified solutions. Getting the word out to prospective thru hikers that the scale of the problem is such that they should seriously consider an alternate itinerary and/ or route or risk becoming part of an increasingly terrible situation.
Dumb idea... you might not be aware of this but there are many people who thru-hike who live NOWHERE near the trail. so now with your idea they have to join some trail club, pay dues, and then some how come out to do there "work" before then know if they get to thru-hike??? give me a break ??
Exactly. If they live nowhere near the trail they make arrangements to join, work just like they do to hike. The problem is enforcement.
Also, I'm not suggesting this is a permanent solution, but something.
Dumb idea... you might not be aware of this but there are many people who thru-hike who live NOWHERE near the trail. so now with your idea they have to join some trail club, pay dues, and then some how come out to do there "work" before then know if they get to thru-hike??? give me a break ??
Exactly. If they live nowhere near the trail they make arrangements to join, work just like they do to hike. The problem is enforcement.
Also, I'm not suggesting this is not a permanent solution, but something.
What is your solution, friend?
That's exactly right. The extraordinarily linear nature of the AT "park" with its' virtually infinite access opportunities makes the kind of permit system most of us are used to seeing in national parks, unworkable. When serious regulation comes to Chattahoochee National Forest, it will come in the guise of highly regulated camping opportunities with quotas and with offenders being frog marched out by law enforcement rangers. I'll say this one more time. We (the trail community) can do a lot to mitigate these problems before they lead to draconian and codified solutions. Getting the word out to prospective thru hikers that the scale of the problem is such that they should seriously consider an alternate itinerary and/ or route or risk becoming part of an increasingly terrible situation.
If we are to spend time getting the word out to prospective thru hikers about the 'scale of the problem' it could be used to inform of some system to stop over crowding. Again, I'm not suggesting a permit system is a permanate solution, but it's a start.
The AT clubs and ATC are the best solution to these problems.
I am sure where most people buy gear, forums and other outlets started informing the hiker community of permits or whatever the word will get around.
Exactly. If they live nowhere near the trail they make arrangements to join, work just like they do to hike. The problem is enforcement.
Also, I'm not suggesting this is a permanent solution, but something.
Ok, I see what your saying, so it just cost someone living nowhere near the trail more to "maybe, if they work hard enough" thru-hike, that seems fair, and how many days will they have to stay and work ??? and what if im a hard worker and your a lazy POS, do we still do the same amount of days work ?? do I get to leave in 2 days and you after 10 ?? its a dumb idea if you break it down to ANY kind of level. who enforces it at the "club " level ??? do you spread out the permits along all the trail clubs ?? or just the ones you like. ..... the only way a permit system would work is it one organization was in charge, and it would be first come first serve (sign up, and picking a start date, paying fee)
Lone Wolf
12-12-2014, 14:26
I think the ATC would go a long way towards promoting southbound thruhikes if there were more of a monument at Springer than just the metal plaque. Springer is thought of as the start and that sign atop katadyn is thought of as the end.
to a SOBO, that simple metal plaque means a lot. it ain't about signs anyway
If we are to spend time getting the word out to prospective thru hikers about the 'scale of the problem' it could be used to inform of some system to stop over crowding. Again, I'm not suggesting a permit system is a permanate solution, but it's a start.
The AT clubs and ATC are the best solution to these problems.
I am sure where most people buy gear, forums and other outlets started informing the hiker community of permits or whatever the word will get around.
Okay, how about a lottery drawing for x amount of thru hikers per year. Again, enforcement is the problem... What is your solution, I missed it.
MuddyWaters
12-12-2014, 15:02
If you want the AT to exist in some resemblance of its present form 50 years from now, quotas and control will be inevitable. That takes NFS employees patrolling and writing citations to enforce. Which takes money.
No, the AT is not the JMT. But its the best we have in the eastern US, and its worth protecting so that is there for future generations. If that means everyone cant have unfettered, unlimited access, then so be it IMO.
$7 million dollars
Why not purchase land?
full conditions
12-12-2014, 15:20
$7 million dollars
Why not purchase land?
Ummmm... you do realize that we already own the land, right?
dangerdave
12-12-2014, 15:30
I'm just glad I'm thru-hiking in 2015 before the knee-jerkers come along and mess things up. Years from now, I'll come back here and rant about the "good old days", and tag the current (then) irresponsible class of AT ruffians as the source of all the problems.
It sounds like some of the infrastructure that has allowed so many to hike is cracking under the strain. I just want to enjoy my hike and be a respectful hiker (to nature, other hikers, locals, etc.), not spend all my time on damage control from the previous class (not all of them, certainly). The implication that all AT thu-hikers conduct themselves irresponsibly is insulting. Don't group me with them self-centered SOB's.
This falls into the famous 10% zone, in that 10% of the people are responsible for 90% of the problems. The same goes with crime, littering, welfare, etc. Remove that 10%, and the rest of the world would be in paradise.
CarlZ993
12-12-2014, 15:39
No one hikes the AT anymore...it's too crowded!
Yogi Berra, AT hiker
;)
Best line in this whole thread. Kind of like, "Hiking the AT is 90% mental and the other half is physical." Another Yogi-ism.
MuddyWaters
12-12-2014, 15:54
It sounds like Baxter SP is going to eventually do what the ATC wont anyway. Impose quotas.
Not being allowed to finish , will surely cause some to reevaluate plans.
The days of the AT past, are already over, you just havent realized it yet. Killed by popularity.
The days are also coming where quotas will be necessary in GSMNP. They have a mission to uphold as well.
Unlimited increases in hiker numbers is simply not a viable plan.
Get used to the idea.
rocketsocks
12-12-2014, 16:14
Yes, I fully understand that most thru hikers need to start in March and April - I get that. What you don't seem to get is that if we don't regulate ourselves by employing different thru hike strategies (some of which have been listed on the ATC's website) and making better choices, someone else is going to be making those choices for us. Consider this- most thru hikers I've met over the years bristle at the notion of having to get a permit to hike thru the Smokies and Shennandoah and they chafe at being told where they can camp and having to stay in certain shelters, or having to pay to camp in the Greens and Whites, etc.. . My point is that we can avoid making this become a reality for the entire trail by starting our long distance hikes and non-traditional locations and using a little bit more creativity in putting together our itineraries. It's kind of a failure of imagination on a grand scale.Naw bro, understand the complexities just fine, were actually on the same page, as I said earlier in the thread, if self policing doesn't get it done it'll get done for us. But branding early spring starters as part of the problem (while this is true) is an over simplification of the problem, again some need to start at that time in order to finish before the snows come come in....but again, were on the same page.
It sounds like Baxter SP is going to eventually do what the ATC wont anyway. Impose quotas.
Effectively they already do if the camping limit of 12 at Birches is enforced since there is no other legal way to camp in the park and few will day hike to the summit from the state park boundary.
For a SOBO thru hike, the process of reserving a lean-to or campsite seems straight forward. I don't really have much sympathy for people who won't plan ahead and do the research, then show up at the park and cannot proceed with their plans. If they start enforcing their rules, pretty soon people will stop expecting to just show up and start. No one expects to start the JMT in Yosemite Valley without a reservation or getting in line at 3am for the walk in permits. Not sure why it should be any different to start a SOBO At thru hike.
Just Bill
12-12-2014, 16:39
If you want the AT to exist in some resemblance of its present form 50 years from now, quotas and control will be inevitable. That takes NFS employees patrolling and writing citations to enforce. Which takes money.
No, the AT is not the JMT. But its the best we have in the eastern US, and its worth protecting so that is there for future generations. If that means everyone cant have unfettered, unlimited access, then so be it IMO.
permits will not work
Start date permits will lead to overall quotas - bad idea and a lazy fix. Sharing data and ideas so people can make better informed decisions is different and good.
Problem is NOT the number of people, number of people is CAUSE of problems.
Listen to Lone Wolf.
It appears that the ATC is working very hard to "keep this in house" and not involve outside regulation. To self regulate while they have the opportunity. The letter from Baxter (biased or not) highlights this challenge more immediately.
The ATC has identified a very specific problem which many here echo- they do not have the attention of thru-hikers.
Self initiating a thru-hiker registration through ATC greatly increases the relevance of ATC.
Lone Wolf's ideas are sound (mainly).
But without rules to enforce, and someway to inform hikers the rules exist it is also only a half measure.
Permit outlays the guidelines before arrival.
RR, rangers, volunteers back up those guidelines in the real world- by the time a hiker clears Georgia the message is delivered and enforced.
No Fires?- Maybe the shelter keeper has the fire. A campfire is a powerful tool... permit or not, a warm fire with a friendly host could go a long way in promoting goodwill and outreach- a supply of deadwood dropped by trail crews for that use not a huge burden. I know I'm biased on the subject- but I say go to the other extreme and take full advantage of fire's medicine.
There may even be no need for physical or financial enforcement of rules on any scale, but rules, guidelines, etc. without teeth seldom succeed.
Punching stomping fining and expelling folks is only needed when the line is crossed- I think we see it coming- but thankfully aren't there yet.
It's $40 for ATC membership for a year.
No reason to discuss work for stay mentality or further promote freeloading options.
Put your foot down- if you can't pay $50 for a permit to walk 2200 miles for six months then you got no business hiking.
Put your foot down gently- Include membership with the permit for free, offer other incentives.
What many here fail to see is the trick the Sierra Club has always used. Membership and hard numbers go a long way politically, even if you are nothing more than a name on a registry. Allowing all Thru-Hikers to go through ATC and swell their ranks gives more political clout, power, and options to the ATC to CONTINUE to operate independently. To avoid NPS type restrictions or conflicts.
A simple laminated pass for $50. Good for one 12 month period of your choosing based upon your hike itinerary.
Includes ATC membership.
Includes registration with ATC regarding your thru and precludes you from registering a successful one.
Rewards that effort with a copy of your harper's ferry photo- Mailed to you upon completion with your certificate.
Includes some education, resources, and outreach.
Includes a start date and designated site for the first night- and ends there.
Includes the understanding that there will be some restrictions and instruction at the start of the trail.
Includes working with the Smokies, Baxter, and any other group along the way to make a one-stop shop for a hiker.
Includes the sense of community and responsibility we all wish to promote.
ATC can waive, discount, or defer costs for alternate starts or for any other promotional purposes they wish.
The ATC can and should-
Partner with corporate sponsors to further offset costs- have those partners offer a discount with ATC membership in lieu of donation if needed- or even discounts valid only with a current thru-hike pass. What kid wouldn't buy a pass if he knew that all their favorite vendors would give a discount on gear to support their hike. Make em feel special, make them feel like the business supports their thru. Don't make it flashy- but provide a sticker or logo program to the vendors to display on websites or storefronts- make it an extension of your current donor program and set up the discount as a regular charitable deduction.
Offer extra discounts at the ATC store as needed with a current pass- maybe those mapsets, guidebooks and keepsakes seem more attractive- at least they'd browse the store just to see.
Partner with trail vendors and service providers- forget the stupid I stopped here stamp- give the hikers a discount or freebie at your business when they stop by and present the pass. That will drive traffic to these service providers- not a rubber stamp.
Partner with AWOL- approach him on exclusively offering his book through ATC. It may even be a better business model for him anyway. Who gives him the info in the first place, who does the info really belong to? At least get him to add a page or two to the book- an intro letter from the ATC.
Partner or get aggressive with APP makers- do they have a right to the data they use or should it be licensed by ATC. Or better- where is the ATC APP to the trail? Who has more accurate GPS data than ATC to offer? Why are you not the authority on the trail you run?
In short- make the pass the hottest thing going, make it desirable, even make it invaluable for a hiker.
Think like a business, promote your product, provide your customer a solution, beat your competition. Accomplish your stated mission.
Partner with WB, Trail Groove, even Backpacker magazine to spread the word on your new initiatives, outreach, and ultimately why these need to happen.
WB members who care to put their heart where their mouth is can work harder to support and direct potential hikes.
On the back side- you can also assist your partner agencies with their rule enforcement.
"Oh, you don't have your thru-hike pass" then I guess all your lame ass excuses, petty theft of resources and entitlement issues don't apply in my park. No thru-hike pass- no free stay at Baxter, no dodging overnight fees in various parks, no putting your partner agencies in a tricky spot. You don't have a pass- there is no more grey area. You comply with park rules or face the consequences. All these exceptions and allowances in deference of thru-hikers and the strained good will of these partners can be addressed simply.
No pass- No ATC support- tough **** for you.
AT hikers forget that most places you pass cost money require registration, fees and permits. It is only through the grace of the agencies and negotiation by the ATC that all these allowances continue to be made. Remind hikers of this-empower your partners who do have existing rangers and resources to enforce their own rules that they should do so.
At the end of the day-
You cannot have a conversation with someone you never met-
ATC needs to be the point of contact, a pass forces this conversation. Nothing more, nothing less.
Starchild
12-12-2014, 17:39
Effectively they already do if the camping limit of 12 at Birches is enforced since there is no other legal way to camp in the park and few will day hike to the summit from the state park boundary.
It was not that way in 2013, things may have changed, and there is a easy alternative. From what I experienced the rangers will (and should IMHO) go out of their way to accommodate hikers over the 12, using the nearby campsite as a alternative. I was offered a stay with a AMC chapter outing there. I did decline as I took advantage of a stay in (IIRC) the AT hostel in Millinocket where Splash came back up to join me for my summit date the next day. A hitch into town is a alternative to the Birches, a shuttle in bypasses daily quotas.
So no there is no limit for Baxter.
I am not a huge fan of limiting the number of starts. To me it would limiting access to the trail and the ‘wilderness’ to many people.
I think it better to mitigate the impact on the trail of each user rather than limit the number of users. As Lonewolf said this is simplest by instituting caretakers. Admittedly there will be people that would choose to abuse the shelter system even then by camping close by and avoiding the payment. I still believe a large portion of hikers (especially as they will have more money available than up north in the greens and whites) will be willing to pay. The caretaker then is both an enforcer and an educator.
He (or she) can help to limit the trash left behind, the drunken stupidity, etc. Moreover just as in the whites, the addition of a caretaker means that trail and privy maintenance can occur more regularly to cope with the extra use.
Perhaps just as importantly, this gives all the new folks who show up (many without much or any real backpacking experience) a source of trustworthy information and a chance to learn about LNT and trail etiquette before they take on the main portion of the trail. Georgia becomes in a sense a class on how to be a responsible AT thruhiker.
"To stick with the religious analogy- The JMT is the Vatican, you need only look to the fella it's named for to understand it's mission and sacred trust. The AT is a trail carved out of one of the most highly populated and damaged pieces of earth on the planet, reclaimed for the enjoyment of the people. It's a special place, but a different kind of special. It was meant to be a place to welcome the city man back to the woods. And to a certain extent- rebuild not only the woods we travel, but the traveler themselves. It's mission is not to protect untrammeled wilderness from humans, but to protect trammeled and downtrodden humans from town."
You make it sound as if the quality of and relationships afforded by the JMT are so exquisitely unique as if it's a one and only of its kind "special" example - a uniquely holy shrine. It is not as unique as you make it sound as the JMT is not merely a place on a map. It's an idea, a perception, a feeling, a thought, an experience, a connection, a union, something that may nor be as tangible as we are so accustomed. It's not the Vatican or Taj Mahal or Mecca. Similar trail character and culture is harmoniously played out elsewhere. Umpteen holy shrines - Vaticans if you wish - exist. It's more of a perception that can be harmonious anywhere and everywhere? If you like though, The Wonderland Tr, Wind River Range, Cascades, Glacier, Grand Canyon, Olympic, Redwoods, Pt Reyes, Rocky Mt, Yellowstone, Canada's Provincial Parks, and much closer to the AT, on the AT itself, in GSMNP, immediately come to mind.
It's not just in NPs where this harmonious relationship, character and culture is exhibited either. Similar trail and Natural character is achieved in many state parks and wilderness areas too. Note the difference here how the BMT is chartered and managed:
Crowds
Not a problem so far. The BMTA has identified 'abundance of shelters' as the primary cause for trail overcrowding and has resolved to honor its charter to keep the BMT as a 'primitive' trail by not adding to the number of existing shelters.
And, it's non crowded culture is conscientiously achieved through design WITHOUT excluding man yet WITHOUT solely accommodating to every possible desire of man. One of the core underlying fundamental differences is that some seek a greater acceptance of the Natural world on its terms. It does NOT have to be a dichotomous choice where it's all about fulfilling human desires or all about conservation/preservation! Appropriate balances can be struck IF IF humanity's hubris and ignorance is checked! There are ways to accomplish this more gently but often a guiding hand is helpful.
The current AT culture, the prevailing attitudes of those that fail to connect with her/with Nature, that recognize the outdoors/the AT as a backdrop/window dressing, are partly a result of perceptions - some fostered by governing bodies. Vastly unpopular, I'll share it anyhow - Even the notion that the AT should be, could be, managed by man in his current state might be dubious in itself.
You talk about, "rebuilding not only the woods we travel, but the traveler themselves...protecting trampeled and downtrodden humans from town... places that are meant to welcome the city man back to the woods." Isn't that exactly one of the core values/goals of the NPS, State Park systems, wilderness governing bodies, and organizations like the AMC, BMTA, etc? Is not that their objective too? If we want to achieve what you say I can think of no better example of where "reclamation" has been accomplished than in GSMNP - but not it is not a reclamation solely based on the enjoyment of man!
If we desire somewhat comparable results for the AT couldn't a better balanced overall objective be struck between conservation, preservation, and human recreation/human usage rather than having the notion that the AT exists for the narrow enjoyment of man managed and controlled by man? If not areb't we simply playing kick the camn down the road? Will not the AT sadly ultimately become a pariah in the larger backpacking/outdoor community. It will become a sacrifice to the earlier developmental stages of "Natural Progression" as Cam (Swami) relates it - IF that progression takes place at all. http://www.thehikinglife.com/environment/a-natural-progression/ The AT DOES NOT have to succumb to this fate! I believe I believe i believe. I have hope.
To even remotely hint at or suggest the National Park Service solely exists or its mandate is fully defined to protect untrampeled wilderness from humans grossly misses the point. It exhibits a view that is not in context with the NPS mandate. Nor is that viewpoint fully shared by those other governing/oversight groups.
Want to change the prevailing AT culture - begin by changing minds. Perhaps, begin by examining and changing our own minds. Perhaps, begin by initiating greater interaction between AT users, preferably pre hike and/or early on in their hikes, and acknowledgment of a more enlightened comprehensive understanding of Nature, what the AT is/can be, a dynamic ecosystem that includes man, but does not just exist for man, re-examining core values/core goals, and ourselves. Valid suggestions are being made on how to implement this here on this thread. The fate of the AT can be will be shaped by each individual's behavior.
Chair-man
12-12-2014, 19:08
I think people who are sentenced to community service by the courts could be sent to the trail clubs to help with the trail maintenance.
I wonder how the number of hikers at the start of the trail compares with the number of hikers on the AT in the Whites on a nice summer weekend?
The world is a big place.
I am glad some of the best places in my neck of the woods are not controlled like the JMT and western national parks.
re: Des
I was asked to be a campground "host" one winter.
It was the access to the Bob Marshall Wilderness.
Most visitors were "hunters".
I was specifically asked to be present. By that means, it would serve as a deterrant.
It did. Instead of vandalism, and damage, there was no vandalism or damage.
I really didn't have to do anything. I took it upon myself to put "tp" in the privy's. It seemed like the decent thing to do. I purchased the "tp" myself. I also took it upon myself to pick up the ditches of the 18.5 mile road. The "roll-off" man let me put the old tires, rusted whatever, and this and that in the big county dumpsters.
The "public" responds to that kind of "deterrance" to vandalism and damage, and, absence of trash, and, fresh "tp" in the privys.
Re: rickb
I made no "demonstration" of it.
I did everything unobserved.
Everyone benefitted.
Re: rickb
I made no "demonstration" of it.
I did everything unobserved.
Everyone benefitted.
I honestly have no idea what that refers to.
Okay.
I did not need a uniform, a badge. I did not strut around all "self-important". I did not wear an insignia, or, have an embroidered patch for the organization that asked me. I did not do anything, except look like another camper minding my own business, when others were present.
No one has to be that low-profile.
I am saying, a great deal was accomplished by the simplist of effort.
HighLiner
12-12-2014, 20:08
Everyone needs to read today's post regarding the letter written by BSP to the ATC. The National Forests between between Springer and the Smokies should take note. I must say I am so impressed withthe passion and insights shared on this site. The ATC has a lot to consider. I hope they listen to the 95 percent of the population who hikes the trail but is not a thru-hiker. I've always wanted to do a thru hike, but now I wonder?
I have been in this forum, since 2004.
The Baxter State Park letter "reads" as accurate, to me.
Do you have any idea how much this region, nearby the CDT, does not want this phenomenon?
I think people who are sentenced to community service by the courts could be sent to the trail clubs to help with the trail maintenance.
Hey, what's your trail name? Jail Break.
Actually, this is already done in a couple places in front country areas during off season hiking times. Since I'm a 4 season hiker I've come across community service trail crews. I stop to talk to them, ask what they did, how they are being treated,... try to slip them some smokes.(only kidding!). This is only briefly tolerated until I'm shooed off by the guards.
"The world is a big place."
Indeed, it is. Plenty of places to hike. However, that doesn't mean I'm willing to totally walk away from the AT and what I feel are my responsibilities in possibly making it a better place to connect with the outdoors.
"I am glad some of the best places in my neck of the woods are not controlled like the JMT and western national parks."
Maybe, because it's determined those places don't have to be.
bamboo bob
12-12-2014, 21:21
I love the AT. But I feel the ATC endless promotions has created most of the problems because they do have as a mission increasing their membership rolls in a never ending upward spiral, without end. Overuse is where we are. End the AT at Abol Bridge and keep the dogs and the parties outside of Baxter.
JB, good answer, good answer. I like the way you think. I'll be watching you.
Gotta remember, JB said he owns 15 hammers.:D
I feel like I've had a long day at work. We all need to go have a drink.:)
MuddyWaters
12-12-2014, 22:01
Double post..somehow
MuddyWaters
12-12-2014, 22:03
The world is a big place.
I am glad some of the best places in my neck of the woods are not controlled like the JMT and western national parks.
And conversely, I am glad that a very few unequalled, irreplaceable areas were set aside by wise leaders, and for the most part protected.
What easterners think are their forests today, are nothing but a collection of immature saplings managed for the timber industry. It takes hundreds of years to grow a real tree.
The "public" responds to that kind of "deterrance" to vandalism and damage, and, absence of trash, and, fresh "tp" in the privys. Connie, I wholeheartedly agree that in most instances all that is needed is someone to be present to deter offenders. I hope I couldn't come off as implying that I want some form of brutish 'authority' to enforce compliance. I have seen caretakers have to lecture some miscreants a couple times, but that is the rarity.
I have not been in Georgia during the height of the bubble, having started earlier than most, but, I have been in the Whites and Greens in heavy use season and believe that caretakers are a good step. Certainly if we want to educate new hikers and combat things like overflowing privies and littering it seems like a reasonable approach while still allowing free access. We may not be able to enforce that people go on a backpacking trip before they attempt the AT, but it can't hurt to help guide them in that first step if they do come uneducated.
Med2, What I would do wouldn't be very popular. I would do away with all the rat infested Shelters, that would make about 10-15% of the population stop trying, you know the idiots who don't carry any kind of shelter with them and expect you to either set up your tent or fit another in an already full shelter....... the problem with the AT is the support system, its the best thing about it and the worst thing at the same time... the AT is great for people who want to party more then hike, because every 2 to 3 days there is a town, the support system enables POS's to be POS's and those people are not good for the trail !! ................ and next I would, while I HATE saying it, some kind of permit system run by the ATC or 1 overseeing group. it would be a first sign up, first serve. when you signed up, you picked a start date, and only a certain amount of people each day are allowed to start. If the day you want to start is full, you have to pick another day, I would make a fee at the sign up time, nothing big.... 100 or 150, just enough so only serious people will sign up.... and lets be honest if you cant come up with 100 or 150 bucks, you more then likely don't need to me attempting a thru ( I never like the idea of a lottery, you could wait years, or never get it)
I love the AT. But I feel the ATC endless promotions has created most of the problems because they do have as a mission increasing their membership rolls in a never ending upward spiral, without end. Overuse is where we are. End the AT at Abol Bridge and keep the dogs and the parties outside of Baxter.
I disagree with your assessment. I think if one would survey thru hikers, one would find very few are ATC members. Some probably never heard of the ATC. My guess is that most supporters of the trail have not thru hiked.
MuddyWaters
12-12-2014, 23:46
My impression, possibly incorrect, is that the ATC has been actively promoting the trail without limitations in mind. Use, and popularity, mean money and growth. Possibly more federal $ from NPS.
What seems clear, is BSP is close to capacity for AT thru hikers and is getting tired of their behaviors. Keep in mind that section hikers are about as large # as thrus.
What would seem to need to happen, is similar the Whitney zone management in SEKI. Limited permits are available for a mix of dayhikers, and thruhikers.
ATC would issues start dates, locations , with permits. Not all starts are from springer. Those that start up trail simply have to finish up a few miles afterwards. The permit also entitles you to enter BSP and summit Katahdin within a window of time you choose when receive petmit. The numbers for BSP are agreed upon and limited to what BSP wants.
I didn't lecture anyone. I think I made the point, I didn't speak to anyone about how they did things. I was not there to "police" anything. I absolutely did not confront anyone. That was not my role. My role was only to be there. That is what I was asked to do.
I did hike around, and, explore a bit in the woods.
Fetch water. I looked like everyone else there.
I think "lecturing" comes about, when the campground "host" has been in the same location season after season, and, gets the idea "they" live there. I have seen that, in forest service and national park service campground "hosts".
I don't camp there. It is "like" camping in someone else's backyard. Uncomfortable!
I don't like the term campground host, and, I do not recommend it.
I was paid nothing. It was fun, camping thru an entire Winter, in Montana.
Try it! Try it all season, any season, on the AT.
If the AT needs a deterrant to damage, vandalism, and littering, maybe you can camp at or alongside a shelter for a season.
I think there are individuals who would like to "test" their mettle and their gear for a season.
Maybe not? Maybe 1 month?
pyroman53
12-13-2014, 12:58
what the AT needs in first 300 miles or so for 2 months is a caretaker (babysitter) at every shelter, more privies at each shelter and all fire pits destroyed at shelters. NO FIRES ALLOWED.
Yes. It seems the problem relates to impact, not of sheer numbers since non-thrus outnumber the thrus by huge numbers, but the impact of large GROUPS of thrus. Thus, designing the first few hundred miles to accomodate these groups while still protecting the environment should be the key. In addition to LW's ideas, I suggest thinning the forest areas surrounding the most popular and evionmentally "hardy" sites to make the forest more healthy and able to withstand the impacts (and since I am a forester I assure you this will help) and also to allow the creation of more tenting sites in environmentally sound spots. This way, we don't have crappy tentsites clumped close to the shelters and/or water, on slopes, near water and sensitve areas, but we have tent sites that are dispersed in such a way that improves the experience and lessens the impacts.
We might not fix the experiential effect of huge numbers but we can lessen the environmental effects. If the experience begins to suck, maybe less will come and more will pursue alternate styles of thrus.
Since it has come up, I'll just mention that ATC has 40,000 plus members. There are an estimated 2-3 million trail users. In the last year or two, about 25% of each year's crop of thru-hikers have been ATC members.
Dwill1000
12-13-2014, 13:45
The unfortunate truth is that with 8+ billion humans on it the more popular places on this Earth are being loved to death. Judge it as you will, this is simply the way it has come to be. The population pressure on the AT is not unique. Just go to Yosemite or Yellowstone in the Summer, or to any suburban mall on any weekend and experience it for yourself. This problem discussed in this thread has no easy or simple or, in my opinion, attainable solution (that I'm willing to discuss here, anyway).
That said, as I plan my AT thru-hike to begin in March of 2015, does this mean I throw in the towel and cede to the others who vie for this experience? I would undertake this journey with respect for the environment and of those around me. Is my opportunity to have this experience going to be thwarted by those who do not? I read the letter from Baxter to the ATC and sympathize with their situation. Yes, yes, yes, I am of the 'older' generation and accordingly I tend to judge disrespect to the environment and to others by large groups of younger hikers harshly. Why don't people just frigging behave themselves?
I'm having a real crisis now about going ahead with my AT hike.
Damn!
Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 14:02
The unfortunate truth is that with 8+ billion humans on it the more popular places on this Earth are being loved to death. Judge it as you will, this is simply the way it has come to be. The population pressure on the AT is not unique. Just go to Yosemite or Yellowstone in the Summer, or to any suburban mall on any weekend and experience it for yourself. This problem discussed in this thread has no easy or simple or, in my opinion, attainable solution (that I'm willing to discuss here, anyway).
Damn!
It's too easy to love a place to death when you build roads into the very heart of these places, like in Yellowstone. Or the Cades Cove Motor Loop. Fat Americans are addicted to rolling and the park service bends over backwards to accommodate these folks. The misguided human choice to build these roads can be changed by the human choice to close these roads. The farther humans have to walk, the less they will love a place to death.
Knowing our population is skyrocketing, it's vital we close more roads and have a Park policy to not encourage rolling access to the last of our wild places.
Dwill1000
12-13-2014, 14:33
Yes, I agree 100%, Tipi Walter. Preservation of wilderness is essential and lack of roads is a major step.
I've read that the average Yosemite and/or Yellowstone visitor never gets more than 200 feet from their car. I believe autos should be banned from both places - and perhaps many others.
Yes, I agree 100%, Tipi Walter. Preservation of wilderness is essential and lack of roads is a major step.
I've read that the average Yosemite and/or Yellowstone visitor never gets more than 200 feet from their car. I believe autos should be banned from both places - and perhaps many others.
And this will be quickly followed by a complete collapse in support for funding the NPS, and probably with the next election a huge backlash which may include privatizing public lands. Do not expect the public at large to support the priorities of backpackers if they cannot also have reasonable access to public lands. Some sensible balance is needed.
squeezebox
12-13-2014, 14:54
I said on a parallel thread that if permits happen it should include an online ed course, inc test to prove you read it. and a fee that would go to new shelters etc
The AT is not a 6 month Frat party, a few people think it is.
Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 16:43
And this will be quickly followed by a complete collapse in support for funding the NPS, and probably with the next election a huge backlash which may include privatizing public lands. Do not expect the public at large to support the priorities of backpackers if they cannot also have reasonable access to public lands. Some sensible balance is needed.
Consciousness must change. As so-called "stewards" to our public lands, forest officials must set the tone for rolling access to our last remaining wild lands. The GSMNP has the worst air pollution of any park in the US and as bad as the air in Los Angeles and yet the forest officials WILL NOT stop automobile and motorcycle traffic thru the park. The rolling public couch potatoes may want full free access to the Park and yet it's the responsibility of the officials to wake up and stop this madness. Or at least charge each car coming in 20 bucks for the privilege.
But so far it's been free open season for cars in the Park which reflects our century-old love affair with rolling and the need for gas huffing. I believe in the future forest officials will put a real stop to this car addiction.
I believe in the future forest officials will put a real stop to this car addiction.
I can't see that happening at all. A good example is Yosemite Valley. For decades, there has been talk of implementing a shuttle only system for the valley. This has gone nowhere. I remember talk of this during my earliest visits to the park as a kid in the late 70s/early 80s. It was said that a car-less Yosemite Valley was inevitable. But it won't happen. There isn't even a restriction on the number of cars that can enter what is essentially a giant cul-de-sac in one of the most spectacular places on earth. Obviously if Yosemite Valley was pristine today and a national park was planned, there would be no cars in Yosemite Valley, no lodges, no development whatsoever. Would I enjoy backpacking into a pristine Yosemite Valley like that? Sure. But even John Muir didn't experience that kind of Yosemite. After all he and many others actually lived in the valley. There were houses, services, roads, etc.
Fat Americans are addicted to rolling and the park service bends over backwards to accommodate these folks
but, they have just as much right to the parks as skinny backpackers............
The GSMNP has the worst air pollution of any park in the US and as bad as the air in Los Angeles and yet the forest officials WILL NOT stop automobile and motorcycle traffic thru the park
the majority of the air pollution that is in and around the Park comes from other places.....
like the coal fired power plants that surround us.....
cutting motorized travel through the park will do little to reduce the air pollution........
I can't see that happening at all. A good example is Yosemite Valley. For decades, there has been talk of implementing a shuttle only system for the valley. This has gone nowhere.
When I visited Zion NP years ago they had a shuttle system there. No cars were allowed in the park, all travel was by foot or by shuttle. Did they undo that system? If so, I can't imagine why... it seemed to work well enough.
When I visited Zion NP years ago they had a shuttle system there. No cars were allowed in the park, all travel was by foot or by shuttle. Did they undo that system? If so, I can't imagine why... it seemed to work well enough.
Zion had that system when I was there about a decade ago (2005 I believe). However, since I had a reservation at the Zion Lodge, I was permitted to drive my vehicle into the restricted area. And not just to go to and from the lodge, but anywhere on the loop. I did use the shuttle system while inside the loop, however, since it seemed pointless to drive around. This was not a backpacking trip. I stayed at the lodge and day hiked.
I don't see this happening in Yosemite Valley. The scale of the shuttle system would be much larger and the number of lodging and other amenities in the valley is far greater. If Yosemite had a shuttle system but exempted those with lodging reservations, you would just create two classes of park visitors - those who go to lodges and those who do not. And I don't see the politics of the situation herding Ahwahnee guests from their Mercedes SUVs into a shuttle bus anytime soon either.
Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 20:41
but, they have just as much right to the parks as skinny backpackers............
They have as much right to enter the park as anyone---but ON FOOT. Maybe a guy wants to fly in on a helicopter? Sure, let's open it up to him. Maybe a group wants to come in on ATVs? Sure, why not? How about a guy in a jet pack? Why not? Why not 200 Harleys w/o mufflers? Sure, it's their god-given right. Snowmobiles sound excellent. Bring 'em in. Who cares about a little noise pollution? Open it up to gopro personal drones and people won't even have to leave their cars to see the next mountain range.
Yes, I agree 100%, Tipi Walter. Preservation of wilderness is essential and lack of roads is a major step.
I've read that the average Yosemite and/or Yellowstone visitor never gets more than 200 feet from their car. I believe autos should be banned from both places - and perhaps many others.
Why, the national parks aren't just for backpackers and backpackers need to be able to get to the trailheads? If most visitors never travel more than 200 feet from the road that leaves thousands of unspoiled acres.
Not to mention that it's not just "fat Americans" staying near the car. Plenty of elderly and disabled people enjoy the sights in parks.
MuddyWaters
12-14-2014, 08:37
The sad truth, is many americans are generally self centered, and lazy. They expect a national park to be a sideshow that entertains them. They have no interest in preserving anything.
Human access should have never been put ahead of preservation anywhere, but certainly was.
Obviously the AT has been over crowded for years. Using the BMT as a starting trail is fine for those who have the experience. One needs to know how to read a map on the BMT not on the AT. Solutions are complex but whenever we can get more land without roads we are going to be better off long term. I do not see the ATC as really playing an effective role in some areas. This is due to the fact that their time gets taken up too much with lobbing matters, right of way matters, and other legal matters. What they do they do well. However, the answers really lie with each individual. By reading all these posts I come away with the thought. Gee, I really do not know the answer. Also, I come away with a feeling of gratefulness for the paper companies in Maine who own vast areas of land and allow access. Logging roads do have a tendency to grow over in a short period of time. Also, we are pretty much a like minded group. We need to stick together and not allow ourselves to be broken apart by small matters.
Also, as the old saying goes we will get more bees with honey.
The sad truth, is many americans are generally self centered, and lazy. They expect a national park to be a sideshow that entertains them. They have no interest in preserving anything.
Human access should have never been put ahead of preservation anywhere, but certainly was.
Providing reasonable access to parks for the lazy as well as the elderly and disabled allows people to see the natural environment for the first time. Some may be inclined to become more active. Others might not but will have an appreciation for the outdoors and support wilderness. And sure, some will expect Disneyland. The point is that we live in a democracy. If we want wilderness lands preserved, then a majority of politicians must support that. In theory, but also in reality, politicians have no incentive to support wilderness if their constituents don't support it. How many of us were introduced to wilderness by being driven into front country park facilities as kids? I was, in Yosemite. I can't say that without that exposure I would have ever been interested in exploring further. And my parents would never have backpacked into Yosemite valley, or anywhere else for that matter. They are not self centered or lazy, just typical Americans. And backpackers need the support of non backpackers politically. This obvious fact seems lost on many here.
In another thread, Laurie P. from the ATC posted:
Having never seen the impact personally, I guess I never realized just how much the number of hikers has grown, nor the fact that this kind of concentrated use is unsustainable. By the time the bubble gets up my way, the herd has been thinned out and spread out.
Readimg Laurie's post made me realize the magnitude of this problem in a way I never have before.
Apart from any environmental impact, this problem is kind of scary when you consider how few options the land managers and NPS have to deal with this.
Sooner or later they will feel forced to. The trail has already increased in participation and I do not think we have seen anything yet. If the ATC or some private entity could raise the funds to address high impact areas that would help a lot. I understand that between the approach trail and Virginia that it is pretty trashy. It would be good thing to either have volunteers or paid employees that are willing to go out there and clean it up and keep it that way for the most part.
upstream
12-14-2014, 10:13
I know of 2 places in Georgia (one is an NPS unit) where road access has been discontinued and replaced with a shuttle because of overuse. In one, the trail now is overused, in the other, it's been hardened with pavement. I would venture to guess that both places, the shuttle is used primarily by the handicapped.
So, cutting off road use to popular places is not without precedence.
RainbowDash
12-14-2014, 10:15
The Wave in Arizona (and many other land marks) while back had an over abundance of visitors many of who were from all over the world so in order to limit the impact of people on the area they started to have a maximum number of people who could visit a day. Naturally people complained about how it wasn't fair that those people who signed up first got in first. Thus, they instigated a lottery system and with the influx of tourists from other countries its now nearly impossible to get in unless you drive there and wait at the door to see if someone didn't show up. It may have been something someone who was sick wanted to see or do before they became too weak to function but nope you lost the lottery so now you can die without fufilling you dream.
On the other hand people are treating Mount Everest as the worlds highest trash dump and there are traffic jams on the mountain. People literally die for a chance to get to the top solely for bragging rights. Because this is a major source of income for Nepal they have left this distruction largely unregulated until very recently when various world ecological organizations really started to complain. I think making it socially acceptable to do things like this for "Glory and Honor" makes people more likely to do them. The best thing I think that can be done is to strike a balance between The Wave and Mount Everest. Just Bill has made a great model for sustainability and yes treating the trails like businesses takes a bit of the wild out of them but really if thats "wild" then the El Camino must be a walk in the woods with bears lions and unicorns around every corner trying to stab you in the face.
Tipi Walter
12-14-2014, 10:52
Not to mention that it's not just "fat Americans" staying near the car. Plenty of elderly and disabled people enjoy the sights in parks.
This is the "multi-use access" policy-excuse used by the forest officials---bring 'em all in by car or bike or ATV or whatever else. But the reality is different. A blind person won't be playing pro football. Or someone 70 years old. A legless person won't be climbing K2. A guy without hands won't be playing basketball. Sometimes there are places or things we cannot do due to our limitations. So it should be for the backcountry. Should we fly people up to the top of Mt Everest in a helicopter just because they can't walk or see?
There's a waterfall on the North Fork Citico wilderness trail which cannot be seen unless you're on foot. According to the multi-use access freaks would they want to open up this trail and cut a road in just so the feeble or fat or crippled can see the falls? Nope, so far it's protected from such lunacy. Backcountry needs to be earned i.e. gained on foot.
The sad truth, is many americans are generally self centered, and lazy. They expect a national park to be a sideshow that entertains them. They have no interest in preserving anything.
Human access should have never been put ahead of preservation anywhere, but certainly was.
Amen and thank ye fellow traveler.