View Full Version : Poll on FIltering and Illness
This poll is for hikers with 1000+ trip miles
Lone Wolf
10-24-2005, 08:32
I've never filtered and have never been sick.
SGT Rock
10-24-2005, 08:38
This poll is for hikers with 1000+ trip miles
Was this supposed to be a poll?
Was this supposed to be a poll?
Yes, Rock. For some reason I am easlity confused when it comes to posting a poll. I think it should show up now.
the goat
10-24-2005, 08:48
god bless the people at pur.
SGT Rock
10-24-2005, 08:49
So is this for people with over 1000 miles hiking, or a single trip of at leat 1000 miles. I assume the later.
So is this for people with over 1000 miles hiking, or a single trip of at leat 1000 miles. I assume the later.
I'll go back and clarify. I just want to make sure that those answering are hikers with a bunch of time int he backcountry. Anyone can get lucky on thier first weekend out ;-).
Oops. Its too late for me to edit post #1. I'd like to see anyone who has 1000 AT miles under thier belt (or 100 nights camping anywhere similar) participate.
Hammock Hanger
10-24-2005, 09:08
I've never filtered and have never been sick.
I am right there with LW. NO filter, no sickness. (Even when drinking some of the tea waters in north FL.)
I boiled water (sometimes) on the AT, but often took my chances when the water was coming right out of the ground. I got sick several times. One of my hiking partners got giardia. Another got an unidentified intestinal illness that hung on for months after he completed his hike.
After hiking the AT, I worked as a water microbiologist in a state laboratory, testing drinking water and swimming water samples. One thing I learned, from first hand experience, is that even clean-looking waters in "pristine" areas of Vermont are routinely loaded with fecal bacteria. True, not all fecal bacteria cause disease, but the presence of coliforms or E. coli means that pathogens may be present.
I don't know about you, but the thought of drinking (untreated) water contaminated with the feces of warm blooded animals turns my stomach.
I'm currently section hiking the CDT in Montana/Idaho. You'd think the Rockies would be a mecca for pristine water. Unfortunately, cows and horses foul the water even at the highest points on the divide in many, many places. What would be nice clean mountain streams unfortunately suffer from unsightly algae blooms. God knows what the bacteria content is in some of these water sources.
And here's the tough part. You have to take water from sources located BELOW dozens of cowpies on a number of occasions, because there's simply no other choice.
Do I treat this water every time? You'd better believe it. One thing not commonly known about cattle: one out of every 24, on average, is infested with E. coli 0157:H7. That's the strain of E. coli that can kill you, via something called HUS (hemolytic uremic syndrome).
Bon appetit!
Alligator
10-24-2005, 09:55
THIS IS A COMPLETELY UNSCIENTIFIC POLL. PLEASE DO NOT BASE YOUR HEALTH DECISIONS ON THE RESULTS OF THIS POLL.
Simply stating your personal experiences is fine, but to place percentages unscientifically on what is an important health issue for hikers is irresponsible IMO. The numbers generated are in no way accurate and will be biased.
In the ongoing discussions on water quality here at WB, to date about the best article about trail water quality was linked by Sgt. Rock. The paper was a study of water quality in the West. I forget exactly where.
Good point about the poll being unscientific, Alligator. If I could add your bold type warning to the initial question and/or the first post in this thread I would do so. You are 100% right.
An individual's choice on water treatment should not be driven by unscientific polls (and this one is really unscientific)
That said, you realize that the article you reference about water quality out West (the Sierras) basically says "drink up and don't worry" but "wash you hands", right? Anyway, here it is again:
http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/Giardia.htm
Footslogger
10-24-2005, 10:51
I've used all methods of filtering/purifying but on my thru I took only AquaMira with me. When I was at higher elevations and didn't observe much large wildlife I often just scooped and drank directly from the running streams. Otherwise it was just AquaMira, or boiling if it was water gathered just for my dinner meal.
I did not have a water related health issue during my thru ...however I did end up doing the entire hike (found out afterwards) with serious kidney stone disease. Had to have 2 surgeries when I got home.
All the water in the world (filtered or non-filtered) would have helped me with that one.
'Slogger
Hammock Hanger
10-24-2005, 11:10
I discussed this once with my doctor who thought treating was a good idea and could not tell me why I haven't gotten sick other then that maybe I have built up some immunities and/or have been lucky.
I never tell people they should or they shouldn't treat their water. It is a gamble and each person has to take care of themself. When asked though I will openly say, not treating has worked for me thus far and until I get sick it is the way I will go.
Alligator
10-24-2005, 11:23
...
That said, you realize that the article you reference about water quality out West (the Sierras) basically says "drink up and don't worry" but "wash you hands", right? Anyway, here it is again:
http://www.yosemite.org/naturenotes/Giardia.htmThanks, I thought that link was in the Articles section, but didn't see it. Anyway, that particular article covers research in the Sierras. Which translates to it is applicable only in the Sierras and does not transfer to the AT. I see that the intended sample population for this poll doesn't subset to just AT hikers, but a lot of WB readers are focused on the AT. If anyone has any scientific AT water quality studies, please post.
But, since you asked, the data presented in that article is convincing that the risk of illness from drinking water sources in the Sierras is extremely low. I personally feel that handwashing is more important than filtering in preventing intestinal disorders. I base my opinion solely on general readings and anecdotal evidence. Without any good data on water quality for the AT (my primary hiking area) I will continue to treat my water as I have always done in the past and practice good hand cleaning. I have never had an intenstinal disorder in any period after hiking. If I were forced to choose, I would take the soap and hand sanitizer.
IMO, Those who don't filter/treat have probably never been sick. But again - a personal decision best left up to each hiker.
As a river guide, I had a friend who fought Giardisis (from Giardia) for over a year, from a tiny amount of water accidentally splashed into his mouth during a routine trip. It's nasty.
Plus, a pipe sticking out of the ground does not ensure safe water! Some old pipes are lead and leach other heavy metals, not to mention microbes that can cause illness. Some inconsiderate folks use the toilet near water sources, or wash out personal items near/around it including blisters, soak their feet, cuts, wash their bodies, rinse out 'environmentally friendly" ladies products - yuck! No guarantee a lightly running spring has "flushed" this stuff away.
I will never opt for anything but a filter, the taste was so consistent that I found myself filtering hotel water when in town on my hike last year that tasted nasty -flouride and chlorine in it.....this is my "creature comfort":
MSR MiniWorks® EX Microfilter
The MiniWorks EX is the best-selling filter on the market, delivering long-lasting, fully field-maintainable water filtration. Its durable ceramic element ensures protection, pumps water for years, and can be cleaned repeatedly for full recovery, with no tools required for complete disassembly. The MiniWorks is also lightweight, compact, and, thanks to its innovative AirSpring Accumulator™, capable of pumping one liter of water per minute.
Long-lasting
Durable ceramic element ensures protection and will pump water for years.
Field-maintainable
Can be cleaned repeatedly for full filter recovery; no tools required for complete disassembly.
Fast Flow
AirSpring Accumulator increases filtration speed; up to 1 liter/minute.
Effective Protection
Removes bacteria, protozoa (including crypto and giardia), and particulate.
Better-tasting Water
Carbon core removes unpleasant tastes and odors caused by chemicals, such as iodine, chlorine, and pesticides.
Weight: 16oz/456g
Dimensions:7.5 x 2.75 in./19 x 7 cm
Cartridge Life: Up to 2,000 liters, depending on water conditions
Includes: Stuff sack, hose float, scrub pad, and instructions
You could probably go lighter, but I prefer the safety of the larger/thicker porcelain filter inside, it's never let me down! It only allows water molecules through, I like that security.
fiddlehead
10-24-2005, 19:17
Point is: most people in the world drink untreated water and do not get sick from it. In Nepal, i too now drink the water and don't get sick although most newcomers to Nepal probably would like i did my 1st time.
Does this mean that i've built up an immunity to Giardia? I believe so.
somebody said "God bless the folks at PUR" why? cause they learned how to make money from your fears? drink the water, it'll keep you alive, not kill you
Hammock Hanger
10-24-2005, 19:23
Some inconsiderate folks use the toilet near water sources, or wash out personal items near/around it including blisters, soak their feet, cuts, wash their bodies, rinse out 'environmentally friendly" ladies products - yuck! No guarantee a lightly running spring has "flushed" this stuff away.
.
Smile: Thanks for those lovely pictures that will be in my head next time I dip into that beautiful mountain stream for a sweet cup of water...:bse Sue
smokymtnsteve
10-24-2005, 19:37
not treating has worked for me thus far and until I get sick it is the way I will go.
famous last words ;)
Hammock Hanger
10-24-2005, 19:45
:jump
famous last words ;)
:jump :jump :jump :jump :jump :jump :jump
I have to admit that there is one aspect of filter that worries me.
If I was concerned about getting stung by a wasp (which could hurt some), I sure as heck wouldn't go about protectingy myself by catching everyone that came near me, until I had hundreds and thousands of the live insects collected in a "special place" in my backpack.
Because if they ever escaped together, that would really hurt.
Seems to me that concentrating crypto, giardia, e-coli and other bugs in an old filter is doing much the same thing.
Alligator
10-24-2005, 23:14
Point is: most people in the world drink untreated water and do not get sick from it. In Nepal, i too now drink the water and don't get sick although most newcomers to Nepal probably would like i did my 1st time.
Does this mean that i've built up an immunity to Giardia? I believe so.
somebody said "God bless the folks at PUR" why? cause they learned how to make money from your fears? drink the water, it'll keep you alive, not kill youLots of people get sick.
One child dies every eight seconds from a water borne illness, that's over 10000/day.
http://www.un.org/News/Press/docs/2003/sgsm8707.doc.htm
27000 child deaths a year in Nepal alone from just diarrhea
http://www.cwin.org.np/resources/reports/ROC_2002/survival.htm
Try a search on water borne illnesses. There are several particularly nasty ones.
Alligator
10-24-2005, 23:28
I have to admit that there is one aspect of filter that worries me.
If I was concerned about getting stung by a wasp (which could hurt some), I sure as heck wouldn't go about protectingy myself by catching everyone that came near me, until I had hundreds and thousands of the live insects collected in a "special place" in my backpack.
Because if they ever escaped together, that would really hurt.
Seems to me that concentrating crypto, giardia, e-coli and other bugs in an old filter is doing much the same thing.Pure speculation.
Run a mild bleach solution through it now and then. It'll clean the hoses too.
fiddlehead
10-24-2005, 23:28
I stand corrected. sorry
i have used some of those nasty pills maybe 3 times in almost 7yrs and never have been sick.I am a chosey picker of water period and will walk for miles untell i find a good water source once :eek: ky
Pure speculation.
Run a mild bleach solution through it now and then. It'll clean the hoses too.
You are right about the speculation part, Alligator. Those were jsut my thoughts.
I am not suggesting people don't use a filter, BTW. If you are faced with getting your water from a stagnant pool, one can be very comforting. I have used a Pur Hiker in the past, and there were occasions that I was glad to have it.
But I also think there is enough data out there to suggest that people who filter do get sick. Some of that has nothing to do with one's water. But if some of it does have to do with filtered water, then why?
I know that when I put my filter away I was carefull about putting input and output hose in different bags. But I also know that when I put the filter itself in a third bag that the input and output nipples were right next to each other at the bottom of a plastic bag. As gravity causes some of the water that had been on the dirty side of the filter toleak out, I cant help but think where its going. And I can't help but think that the water that is coming out of that side of the filter is a toxic stew.
Don't get me wrong, I am not an engineer. Perhaps the clean side soes stay clean. Perhaps a month of use don't create tears in the filter membrane through wich accumulated junk passes.
One thing though. If the manufactures see a need to run chlorine through the filter to clean it, aren't they conceeding my point? And keep in mind that the chlorine pass wont kill Crypto.
But again, I am not saying one should not filter. I am suggesting that if you do believe there is a need for filtering, there might be ways to do it better. than I do, and MUCH BETTER ways to filter than the average hiker employs.
Now a question. I have a filter with an ellement that is about two years old. Last time it was used was out West in what in a stream with visible horse **** nearby. I was glad to have it! By the time I take it out again, it will have set in a warm attic for months on end. Should I expect this filter to increase my chances of maintaining good health the next time I draw water from a mountain streem high in the whites? How about if I run a bleach solution through it?
Alligator
10-25-2005, 11:25
Now a question. I have a filter with an ellement that is about two years old. Last time it was used was out West in what in a stream with visible horse **** nearby. I was glad to have it! By the time I take it out again, it will have set in a warm attic for months on end. Should I expect this filter to increase my chances of maintaining good health the next time I draw water from a mountain streem high in the whites? How about if I run a bleach solution through it?I wouldn't use it. I've never run horse***** through mine. I would consider that one spent, especially if it had some use. They are not a cheap option. May have been a good place to use a coffee filter first. I run bleach through immediately upon returning home, otherwise I am highly suspicious myself. A Pur will get funky over time if not treated properly. In the past, I had a Sweetwater which could be frozen. However, with a paper filter, I cannot say whether that is an option. I think it would freeze tear. Besides ceramic (like the Sweetwater) there are others which may not be good to even bleach. Bleach is corrosive to stainless steel. I've never owned an expensive one and doubt know the exact construction. I haven't used my filter though in about two years. They are more problematic for section hikers due to down time. I think they are a reasonable option for groups where the weight is distributed and they get used up quickly.
I remember reading a few years back about a study done on the chances of a long distance hiker contracting giradia. Don't recall the source or the organization who did the study but the basic conclusion was that most backpackers contract the disease from fellow hikers. The lack of basic hygiene and sanitary conditions led to one individual infecting whole groups thru incidental contact. Makes perfect sense when you think that G-funk has an incubation period of weeks and in the mean time you are basically Typhoid Mary on the trail. I always take a small bottle of antiseptic hand soap ( 3 ozs.) and so far so good.
I am one of those lucky ones that don't get sick from NOT treating water. A few years ago, as a definitely non-scientific test, I purposely did not treat water no matter the source - and everyone else on the 7-day trip did. No one got sick.
I have a PUR filter - but use it only to eliminate chunky stuff (such as burro poop in the canyons of SE Utah).
justusryans
10-31-2005, 21:13
I use a Steri-pen, UV kicks ass!!!
smokymtnsteve
10-31-2005, 23:18
I use a Steri-pen, UV kicks ass!!!
Yeah I kinda like shock therapy :datz
justusryans
11-01-2005, 09:04
Yeah I kinda like shock therapy :datz
does kind of give me a buzz!
SGT Rock
11-01-2005, 09:20
I am one of those lucky ones that don't get sick from NOT treating water. A few years ago, as a definitely non-scientific test, I purposely did not treat water no matter the source - and everyone else on the 7-day trip did. No one got sick.
I have a PUR filter - but use it only to eliminate chunky stuff (such as burro poop in the canyons of SE Utah).
Well my threory is that people who live in remote locations, animals, and people who live in cities with poor sanitation (like Baghdad) can develope imunities to these illnesses with exposure. To support that: That article on Giardiasis also mentions that many people that have Giardias never even know because they have no symptoms.
So, if you, and others like LWolf tend to drink from these sources and had good imune systems to start with, then you should be OK most of the time - there is always still a chance. But even as has been mentiontioned - even treaters and filterers still retain a chance of getting sick.
Now folks raised on just good city water may be at a disadvantage because of less exposure to critters in the water, and same could be said for people with compromised immunity systems. So since people like you, LWolf, myself (sometimes) can make it without treating and filtering, it isn't going to be the solution for everyone.
the british national health institute, or whatever their version of it is called, did a study a few years back... those of you with kids will be able to relate... the healthiest kids, measured by fewest colds/allergies/illnesses, were the 5th and younger children in families of boys... seems that as their parents got overwhelmed with trying to keep everyone clean, their kids' immune systems grew stronger... pretty funny...when i was growing up, mom wasn't too worried about me drinking from the creeks/ponds/streams out back... she'd grown up in a pretty remote part of brazil. my neighbors mom was completely the opposite... everything got sprayed with lysol... all three kids were constantly sick with something or other. my brother and i were pretty healthy and didn't miss much school... i'm still the same way and seldom get sick enough to stay home from work. have missed maybe 3 days in the last 10 years or so, and maybe 2-3 in the 9 years i was on active duty...i still purify my water around here with aqua mira, but i'm not shy about drinking straight from the springs up in the smokies and adirondacks...
What Sgt. Rock said is correct. I grew up in a "remote" area - western Kentucky - drank untreated water from our well (dug in an unfortunate location and one in which we once found a very dead and bloated frog) and from the creek in what passed for our front yard. I must have built up an immunity during my childhood years that has remained with me throughout.
An unscientific comment: You can filter and treat and still get sick, and you can drink directly from sources and never get sick.
I am going to continue to play percentages, and filter and treat.