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squeezebox
12-13-2014, 06:47
So where's the line where someone crosses from ultra light to stupid light?
Please address seasonal issues.

juma
12-13-2014, 07:12
So where's the line where someone crosses from ultra light to stupid light?
Please address seasonal issues.

its right at the "no shelter" line.

Tuckahoe
12-13-2014, 07:17
That line is when one's knowledge and skill does not match the gear chosen.

1azarus
12-13-2014, 08:06
That stupid light line can be crossed by a hiker with any weight pack. A "buddy "of mine has hiked almost the whole AT with a 40 to 50 pound pack...and no emergency shelter!

Coffee
12-13-2014, 09:05
So where's the line where someone crosses from ultra light to stupid light?
Please address seasonal issues.
Anytime where you have to rely on the kindness of strangers or just plain good luck under the conditions possible for a trip.

Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 10:05
So where's the line where someone crosses from ultra light to stupid light?
Please address seasonal issues.

In my experience UL becomes stupid light during the winter months when UL backpackers refuse to carry the proper clothing, footwear, and sleeping systems for the temps and snow they encounter. I see it all the time. It's one reason you don't see as many people out in the winter months as you do in the warmer months.

Another stupid light choice are the AT backpackers relying solely on the AT rat-box shelters for their homes while on the trail. And they often get emotional and territorial over these car-port shelters, thinking them to be mandatory to the outdoor experience and thereby they develop a sense of entitlement to their use. Lunacy.

I say---Be men and carry your own shelters and dump the shelter system as you would a syphilis-drenched hot potato. Amen.

MuddyWaters
12-13-2014, 10:10
As popularized by Skurka, he was stupid, when he chose the wrong gear for conditions, by focusing only on the weight. Being light makes trips more enjoyable. Bringing the wrong gear doesnt, regardless of weight. Skurka had thought that ever decreasing baseweight was the road to hiking nirvana, discovered in some situations it wasnt, and blogged about it popularizing the term "stupid light" as it applied to himself. It had to do with efficiency, as well as safety and comfort.



http://andrewskurka.com/2012/stupid-light-not-always-right-or-better/


Not carrying what I needed = “stupid light”


It really had nothinng to do with not bringing some form of essentail gear. That is beyond stupid. It mostly had to do with bringing less appropriate gear for the conditions by focusing too much on weight.

If you hike in a blizzard, having a 4 lb 3 season tent instead of an 8 lb 4 season mountaineering tent is stupid light. Not having a tent at all is suicide

So possibly is camping in 33F and rain weather with a down bag instead of synthetic.

Hiking in shorts and receiving bug bites and sunburn when long pants would have been better is another example.

It all depends. Sans shelter and raingear may be perfectly OK in the desert. It is not in the mountains typically.

Ignorant anti-lightweight backpackers jumped on the term and attempt to use it to bash others.

You could make the case that in some circumstances, most hikers are not carrying what they need. This is why they have to bail to town when cold snaps come, or to dry out after a week of rain. This is not stupid if it is the plan however, which for most, it is.

For me, bringing only a CCF pad to sleep on to save a couple oz would be stupid light. It has no effect on safety. But from past experience, its miserable sleeping on hard ground. It ruins the experience. Been there, done that. Same with bug netting, not worth it to me. An insect free sleeping environment is worth it from comfort standpoint.

Another Kevin
12-13-2014, 10:40
The definition of "stupid light" means that you don't have a good answer to any of these questions:

"Can I find my way?" Even if you wind up straying from the established trail!
"Can I keep from getting sunburnt/windburnt/snowblind?" Especially if you're of Northern European extraction!
"Can I stay warm? Can I stay dry?" Even if the weather is worse than forecast?
"Can I find my way if I run out of daylight while on the move?"
"Can I patch things up if I have a minor injury?"
"Can I make fire?"
"Can I fix routine problems with my clothing and gear?"
"Will I have enough to eat, even if delayed?"
"Will I have enough safe water to drink, even if delayed?"
"Will I have a place to sleep if I get stuck an extra night?" Even if you don't make it to a shelter?
"Can I avoid falls?" Walking stick, poles, microspikes, gloves for gripping the rock, full ice gear, whatever it takes in your conditions.
"Can I avoid making the trail a hazard for those who come behind me?" Nobody wants to find poo, so comply with Deuteronomy 23:13. Snowshoers and skiers hate tripping over other people's postholes, and hate even more finding that the postholers have compacted the trail into a skating rink, so bring snowshoes if the snow is going to be more than boot-deep.

The answer to any of these questions cannot be "That's not going to happen!" and really ought to be something you've field-tested. Have you ever tried out your bivouac setup in the back yard? Intentionally taken a walk around your city park in the worst of weather, to test your clothing? I make it a point to walk to the office every workday - in every season and whatever the weather. I've learnt a few things doing that.

Sugarfoot
12-13-2014, 10:48
I had to look up your reference, Another Kevin.

New American Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/nasb/deuteronomy/23.htm)
and you shall have a spade among your tools, and it shall be when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and shall turn to cover up your excrement.

King James Bible (http://biblehub.com/kjv/deuteronomy/23.htm)
And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:

Good advice. It doesn't say anything about kicking a hole with the heel of your sandal. Poo problems apparently go way back.

rocketsocks
12-13-2014, 10:54
Stopping at a outfitters on the way to a hike, purchasing a headlamp, and not testing it before dark that evening only to find out it doesn't work and will need to be returned on the way home...'Stupid light'

Malto
12-13-2014, 11:01
That line is when one's knowledge and skill does not match the gear chosen.

This is the best option so far. I would agree with Muddywaters on the down bag and 35 and rainy. I was on the wonderland trail in October in exactly those conditions with three other hikers all carrying down bags. None of us had any issues at all. But all four of us had been hiking for years with thousands of miles in all sorts of conditions. So in our case, the knowledge and skill matched the gear perfectly.

i don't view stupid light as a single catastrophic event though I guess in the most extreme condition it could be. Most folks that have been playing in UL for years end up adding a bit of weight back in at the end of the journey. the difference between the lowest and final weight is the stupid light stuff. In my case it would have been adding a bug net to my three season shelter system, swapping out the razor blade for a mini Swiss Army knife etc. and going back to a jar for peanut put instead of a refillable tube. These swapped out items were stupid light

Connie
12-13-2014, 11:05
I think I coined the term: hike smart, when I made a remark in my website to contrast hike stupid or hike smart.

I like the term "Hike Smart".

In Canada, there is an entire "Hike Smart" website.

I think Hike Stupid caught on, referring to "going too far" with SUL.

Responsible SUL websites "define" that line, between lightweight and stupid lightweight. I think they do a good job of it.

No one wants to be a casualty.

Another Kevin
12-13-2014, 11:10
It had nothinng to do with not bringing some form of essentail gear. That is beyond stupid. It had to do with bringing less appropriate gear for the conditions by focusing too much on weight.

If you hike in a blizzard, having a 4 lb 3 season tent instead of an 8 lb 4 season mountaineering tent is stupid light. Not having a tent at all is suicide

So possibly is camping in 33F and rain weather with a down bag instead of synthetic.

Hiking in shorts and receiving bug bites and sunburn when long pants would have been better is another example.

Hmm... interesting point. In my post, which crossed with yours, I was mostly focusing on "beyond stupid," because I see so much out on the trail that's beyond stupid.

Your post is more talking about a range where the triangle of skills, equipment and comfort allow for tradeoffs.

I've never had my (1.6-pound, not 4-pound!) three-season tent in a blizzard, fortunately. But I think the most likely outcome would merely be a night or two of miserable sleep and a day or two holed up, because of the need to keep shoveling snow to unload the tent and maintain a windbreak. Doable, but damnably uncomfortable, so I guess I'd put that at "stupid" level. For someone who doesn't know how to manage a tent in winter, it's more at "deadly" level.

I've hiked - about six weeks ago - a four-night trip with nighttime frost and daytime temps in the 30's, and it rained the whole time. I kept my down dry, even through a fall in a river and a collapse of a bog bridge that dropped me into thigh-deep mud. If it were a week or longer and I didn't have access to a laundry in town, wetting of down would have started to become a problem, because there was a distinct lack of opportunities to get things aired out properly. I wouldn't necessarily recommend down in that kind of weather for a novice, but I carry dead geese with me all year round.

I depend on sunscreen and DEET at some times of year. Sunburn and bug bites are no fun, but neither is heat prostration. In any case, I always bring something with long sleeves and long pants. The legs of regular nylon zip-off hiking pants aren't all that heavy.

I'd add to your list things like not bringing ice creepers for that 33° rain. It doesn't take much to turn that into 31° freezing rain! Or depending on an inflatable sleeping pad in cold weather. (I'm of the belief that you need two pads in winter, and one has to be foam.)

Connie
12-13-2014, 11:11
Tipi Walter, amen.

I think shelters are not an authentic part of the "american experience" of backpacking. Great, in Europe, where they do it so well. Here, no. Our shelters are the worst.

Connie
12-13-2014, 12:03
The "10 essentials" were always the "10 essentials - the systems approach".

I helped formulate the list. No, it isn't that long ago that "the ten essentials" were formulated.

It was never 10 items of gear, you carry. It was never 10 items of gear, you carry - you do not know how to use.

My website addresses all these points, in over 180 printed pages. Well, that is when I stopped trying to "fit" the webpages to a printed page. It is more pages. I even tried to make a PDF, because a book was requested.

I have looked at the two books I recommend on the first webpage. I think my website is better than books.

My website is imitated, and, "mined" for information.

If you read it all, including the links on every webpage, you would make yourself an expert, by then.

I have no advertisements, and, sell nothing.

It is an information only website. Read it.

Lone Wolf
12-13-2014, 12:08
So where's the line where someone crosses from ultra light to stupid light?
Please address seasonal issues.

when you show up in georgia in march with no shelter or stove and ask folks to boil water for you

Deacon
12-13-2014, 12:09
The "10 essentials" were always the "10 essentials - the systems approach".

I helped formulate the list. No, it isn't that long ago that "the ten essentials" were formulated.

It was never 10 items of gear, you carry. It was never 10 items of gear, you carry - you do not know how to use.

My website addresses all these points, in over 180 printed pages. Well, that is when I stopped trying to "fit" the webpages to a printed page. It is more pages. I even tried to make a PDF, because a book was requested.

I have looked at the two books I recommend on the first webpage. I think my website is better than books.

My website is imitated, and, "mined" for information.

If you read it all, including the links on every webpage, you would make yourself an expert, by then.

I have no advertisements, and, sell nothing.

It is an information only website. Read it.

How about a link?

rocketsocks
12-13-2014, 12:19
The "10 essentials" were always the "10 essentials - the systems approach".

I helped formulate the list. No, it isn't that long ago that "the ten essentials" were formulated.

It was never 10 items of gear, you carry. It was never 10 items of gear, you carry - you do not know how to use.

My website addresses all these points, in over 180 printed pages. Well, that is when I stopped trying to "fit" the webpages to a printed page. It is more pages. I even tried to make a PDF, because a book was requested.

I have looked at the two books I recommend on the first webpage. I think my website is better than books.

My website is imitated, and, "mined" for information.

If you read it all, including the links on every webpage, you would make yourself an expert, by then.

I have no advertisements, and, sell nothing.

It is an information only website. Read it.
uh huh, and where did you do your mining? I did mine reading Colin Fletchers book "The Complete Walker" and others, it was my bible many moons ago, still is.

Odd Man Out
12-13-2014, 12:21
I think in term of a cost-benefit analysis. Is the gain of cutting grams worth the loss of what I'm giving up? If you accurately and completely understand both sides (gain and loss) fine. You've crossed the line when you only consider the benefit (cutting grams) and not the cost.

Connie
12-13-2014, 14:33
My link is at my "signature" on each post in the forum. It is green, at the bottem of the post.

I certainly did not "mine" Colin Fletcher. I was "started" by Freedom of the Hills, and, the same man who "started" Lou and Jim Whittaker, and, the same people who "started" Mountain Rescue.

It was because of "our" successful rescues, we have the EMT program. When we started, even MD's were afraid to do "first aid". We were the first to make the most of "the Good Samaritan law".

In fact, national and world famous organizations have "mined" my website.

But, then, why not? I was a rope leader with that program when I was 15 years old.

Connie
12-13-2014, 14:41
Another Kevin,

I looked up that reference:

English Standard Version
And you shall have a trowel with your tools, and when you sit down outside, you shall dig a hole with it and turn back and cover up your excrement.

Who knew? It's biblical.

BillyGr
12-13-2014, 14:42
How about a link?

At the bottom of the original post it was there

Connie
12-13-2014, 14:55
Another Kevin, "I've never had my (1.6-pound, not 4-pound!) three-season tent in a blizzard, fortunately. But I think the most likely outcome would merely be a night or two of miserable sleep and a day or two holed up, because of the need to keep shoveling snow to unload the tent and maintain a windbreak. Doable, but damnably uncomfortable, so I guess I'd put that at "stupid" level. For someone who doesn't know how to manage a tent in winter, it's more at "deadly" level."

I have wondered about that Alaska "walk" Andrew Shurka made. I mean, did he manage well? How about that silnylon tipi-tent?

Silnylon sags.

How did he manage? Did he stay-up to knock snow off the tent walls? How about wind? Was there hail?

I had a ShangriLa3 I really liked. I used it in relatively "tame" weather conditions. It did well, when heavy branches of trees were tossed about.

That is the most weather I had with the ShangriLa3.

In all my mountaineering experiences, we had mountaineering tents. Okay, we did have "snow cave" training.

DLP
12-13-2014, 15:04
I went on the Tahoe Rim Trail for 6 days, Stupid Light, with no tarp. I figured: 1) There is only a 30% chance of thunder storms. 2) T-Storms happen during the afternoon. 3) I'll put my ground sheet over me, if need be. 4) I'm never more than 5-10 miles from an exit, should I need to bail.

Experienced the worst T-storm and rain of my life at 10pm huddled under a 2.5' x 6.5' ground sheet. Was one of the most exciting and memorable nights of my life. I'm not sure that I would change anything... although, I've never gone tarp-free or tent-less again. :)

Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 16:32
I went on the Tahoe Rim Trail for 6 days, Stupid Light, with no tarp. I figured: 1) There is only a 30% chance of thunder storms. 2) T-Storms happen during the afternoon. 3) I'll put my ground sheet over me, if need be. 4) I'm never more than 5-10 miles from an exit, should I need to bail.

Experienced the worst T-storm and rain of my life at 10pm huddled under a 2.5' x 6.5' ground sheet. Was one of the most exciting and memorable nights of my life. I'm not sure that I would change anything... although, I've never gone tarp-free or tent-less again. :)

What day of the trip did this storm occur? Day 1? Day 5? Let's say the storm turned to sleet and you had no bail out option? Suppose you had 10 more days of the trip to go?

DLP
12-13-2014, 16:45
What day of the trip did this storm occur? Day 1? Day 5? Let's say the storm turned to sleet and you had no bail out option? Suppose you had 10 more days of the trip to go? Very first night. I don't know, if it had turned to sleet, snow or whatever... it didn't. And like I said, learned my lesson re: going tarp-less. :)

Tipi Walter
12-13-2014, 16:50
Very first night. I don't know, if it had turned to sleet, snow or whatever... it didn't. And like I said, learned my lesson re: going tarp-less. :)

Okay, follow up question---Did any of your gear get wet in the storm? Sleeping bag? Pad? Clothing? Pack?

colorado_rob
12-13-2014, 17:04
The definition of "stupid light" means that you don't have a good answer to any of these questions:

"Can I find my way?" Even if you wind up straying from the established trail!
"Can I keep from getting sunburnt/windburnt/snowblind?" Especially if you're of Northern European extraction!
"Can I stay warm? Can I stay dry?" Even if the weather is worse than forecast?
"Can I find my way if I run out of daylight while on the move?"
"Can I patch things up if I have a minor injury?"
"Can I make fire?"
"Can I fix routine problems with my clothing and gear?"
"Will I have enough to eat, even if delayed?"
"Will I have enough safe water to drink, even if delayed?"
"Will I have a place to sleep if I get stuck an extra night?" Even if you don't make it to a shelter?...Seems like the best list of answers I've seen so far. I'll add my own "reverse" answer for "Stupid Light": folks that don't understand that everything weighs something (well, almost everything), and that grams add up to ounces and ounces to KG's (forgive the unit mix) and the philosophy of: "I'll throw such-and-such in my pack as I just might need it sometime in some circumstance and it weighs nothing". I call carrying such an item being "stupid light".

rocketsocks
12-13-2014, 17:05
My link is at my "signature" on each post in the forum. It is green, at the bottem of the post.

I certainly did not "mine" Colin Fletcher. I was "started" by Freedom of the Hills, and, the same man who "started" Lou and Jim Whittaker, and, the same people who "started" Mountain Rescue.

It was because of "our" successful rescues, we have the EMT program. When we started, even MD's were afraid to do "first aid". We were the first to make the most of "the Good Samaritan law".

In fact, national and world famous organizations have "mined" my website.

But, then, why not? I was a rope leader with that program when I was 15 years old.Sounds like you been at this game a good long while. I perused your website...good information will always stand by and for itself, so why the constant pitch. [rhetorical question] I like your website.

Connie
12-13-2014, 17:19
I put the website up for inexperienced people.

I usually don't "pitch" the website.

The most, usually, is a "signature" line in forums.

I haven't updated products links. I need to, but they are "examples" only.

I am having trouble with the RAM in my PC. It is brand new RAM.

...that is why I am here with my iPod Touch, mistyping and "editing" often.

DLP
12-13-2014, 17:20
Tipi, It was August. Some things got little damp, but not bad. Bag got a little damp. Pad was a neo-air and was soaking (but dried great), and was also an excellent "life raft" that kept me and my stuff up out of the puddling water. Had fleece jacket and fleece sleeping pants that stayed dry. Was wearing a wool shirt that was shockingly and happily warm while damp.

What can I say? It was stupid light. Hopefully, others may learn from my error. But it was also one fantastical night, and I'm honestly glad I experienced it the way I did, vs. buttoned up in a tent. Glad to have that one experience... but not necessarily looking to do it again.

My sister alternates between calling me, "Listens for Thunder" and "Turkey Bag". I have a little Post Thunder Storm Disorder after that trip, and I freak out every time a plane flies over. I also have a ton of Turkey Bags and rubber bands, and say way too often, "I have a turkey bag for that... you want a turkey bag?"

Connie
12-13-2014, 17:25
They have spectacular thunder and lightning on the Tahoe Rim Trail?

DLP
12-13-2014, 17:34
They have spectacular thunder and lightning on the Tahoe Rim Trail? Yes. :) This was in Tahoe. And was about two hours of the thunder and lightening happening simultaneously.

I also think that if a person spends enough days/nights outdoors... eventually stuff gets wet.

I went out to the coast the week before Thanksgiving and spent 2 days in pouring rain. Decided the "best" thing to do was to get naked and pound the stakes coming loose in the middle of the night. I figured skin was the easiest thing to dry after getting soaked. :) But nobody had a good night's sleep... no matter the size or brand or weight of their tent. And everybody had some stuff that was wet, to varying degrees. But I had a set of clothes that were 100% dry, because I took them off and went out, naked.

Connie
12-13-2014, 17:47
Is that the "new" minimalism?

Andrew Shurka forgot his rainpants. Read: http://andrewskurka.com/2012/stupid-light-not-always-right-or-better/

Wise Old Owl
12-13-2014, 17:50
I had to look up your reference, Another Kevin.

New American Standard Bible (http://biblehub.com/nasb/deuteronomy/23.htm)
and you shall have a spade among your tools, and it shall be when you sit down outside, you shall dig with it and shall turn to cover up your excrement.

King James Bible (http://biblehub.com/kjv/deuteronomy/23.htm)
And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:

Good advice. It doesn't say anything about kicking a hole with the heel of your sandal. Poo problems apparently go way back.




Ah the importance of wearing sandals when walking with camels.....can you dig it?

DLP
12-13-2014, 17:55
I also added weight this summer and went from an 8 oz neo-air to a 16 oz extra large neo-air. It killed me to add those 8 ounces. I hated the thought of going "backwards" on the ultra-light continuum.

It is kind of stupid to go night after night after night of terrible night's sleep. Made me cranky and less coordinated and I didn't think or cope as well.

I sleep great on the long/wide neo-air, and for ME, it was stupid light to save those particular 8 oz.

Stupid light is relative. And one person's idea of stupid light is another person's idea of super smart.

Deacon
12-13-2014, 18:13
I also added weight this summer and went from an 8 oz neo-air to a 16 oz extra large neo-air. It killed me to add those 8 ounces. I hated the thought of going "backwards" on the ultra-light continuum.

It is kind of stupid to go night after night after night of terrible night's sleep. Made me cranky and less coordinated and I didn't think or cope as well.

I sleep great on the long/wide neo-air, and for ME, it was stupid light to save those particular 8 oz.

Stupid light is relative. And one person's idea of stupid light is another person's idea of super smart.

I too was skeptical about sleeping on a half length pad, but since I could send it back if I didn't like it, I decided to try the short Neo air.

I was sure the drop off would be too uncomfortable, but after I tried it, I love it. I found I only need 10 puffs of air, which makes the pad almost flat but not quite. That's just enough air to keep my hip bone off the ground, but with no drop off.

rocketsocks
12-13-2014, 20:09
I put the website up for inexperienced people.

I usually don't "pitch" the website.

The most, usually, is a "signature" line in forums.

I haven't updated products links. I need to, but they are "examples" only.

I am having trouble with the RAM in my PC. It is brand new RAM.

...that is why I am here with my iPod Touch, mistyping and "editing" often.
Daaaaamn, an ipod touch, that's dedication. love my ipod, but I keep phone and ipod correspondence to pity one liners. Maybe get yourself a voice recognition program and attain the coveted dragon breath award.29166

Connie
12-13-2014, 21:07
I have Siri, iPod Touch 5G.

I have sppech recognition software and a screenreader on my PC.

spelling: one letter or character, at a time...

rocketsocks
12-13-2014, 21:14
I have Siri, iPod Touch 5G.

I have sppech recognition software and a screenreader on my PC.

spelling: one letter or character, at a time...
aaah, I'm running a 4 I think, since I got my computer (lap top) I rarely use it for the internet anymore, but for book store and coffee house postings. That voice recognition programs are cool, but glad i learned to type. fast hunting and pecking as it is.

Connie
12-13-2014, 21:42
I hope it isn't "stupid light" because I am thinking of not carrying a guide book on the PCT.

I have a bluetooth GPS, that works with iPod Touch.

I have maps, map apps and GPS apps to use GPS waypoints. I will print maps, as backup.

I will have notes, from data points and guidebooks. I might make a print copy.

I hope that isn't "stupid light".

Washington: North Cascades.

Coffee
12-13-2014, 22:05
I plan to take paper maps on the PCT but may scan my guidebook. I figure that maps are essential but a trail guide is a nice to have and if my phone dies, I won't be in danger without the guide since I still have maps.

garlic08
12-13-2014, 23:12
I hope it isn't "stupid light" because I am thinking of not carrying a guide book on the PCT.

The guidebook I used on the PCT, years ago, we dubbed "The Book of Lies." By the end of the hike, I was ripping out the maps in the book and throwing away the rest. Good maps are all you need, in my experience.

But on the other hand, I hiked the AT with a small data book and without maps. Many consider that move "stupid light," but with over 80,000 blazes in each direction (one every 140' on average), it was a risk I felt OK with. In that case, it was more about the $250 cost, nearly 10% of the cost of my entire thru hike.

We shouldn't ignore the idea of "stupid heavy" in this conversation. I would say there are as many in that category, on the AT at least, as there are on the other end. Like the people I saw filling up 3-liter water bladders every morning when we were literally walking in fresh spring water all day--I carried no water at all many of those days.

By the way, I would never call someone stupid for doing that--I'm just going with the jargon of this thread. Mainly it's just a different style of hiking and packing, and I'm sure glad that not everyone is exactly like me. It's more a shame if someone gets hurt from too heavy (or too light) a load, or can't keep a certain pace to make an important goal

It's only stupid if you do get hurt and you don't learn a lesson from it.

Wolf - 23000
12-14-2014, 11:58
Ultra-light vs stupid light. 25 years ago, someone hiking long-distance/thru-hiker could hike either the AT or PCT with less than 15 pounds including 5 days of food if you know what you are doing.

With gear being lighter today, hiking long distance ultra-light is even easier. What is left out when talking about ultra-light backpacking is the experience someone has. The number of miles someone has hike does not equal experience. I sure we all run into hikers who would like everyone to believe they have hiked thousands of miles only to be in the phase, "What do you carry?" A long distance hiker is going to know that gear vary base on where you are hiking, time of year, if they are hiking with a partner or not, etc. It comes down to experience.

Wolf

RED-DOG
12-15-2014, 11:51
when some one mails their stove, cookpot, water filter and tent home cause they don't want to carry it, but they expect their fellow hiker to accomadate them when they need to use something they have mailed home.

jawnzee
12-15-2014, 13:06
My stupid light tends to be bringing too little food.

BaxterBear
12-15-2014, 13:47
I think the joke is first responders like ultra like hikers because they have less to carry out with the body?

russb
12-15-2014, 14:00
Most people are responding with definitions based on the theme of danger. Mine is different. Since I am backpacking, canoetripping, whatever as an enjoyable exercise, for me, the stupid light line is well before the "dangerous" line. My line is "when I don't have what I need to be enjoying myself". On a canoe trip with plenty of fishing opportunities, "stupid light" is cutting out the fishing gear to save a few ounces.

Wolf - 23000
12-15-2014, 16:06
I hope it isn't "stupid light" because I am thinking of not carrying a guide book on the PCT.

I have a bluetooth GPS, that works with iPod Touch.

I have maps, map apps and GPS apps to use GPS waypoints. I will print maps, as backup.

I will have notes, from data points and guidebooks. I might make a print copy.

I hope that isn't "stupid light".

Washington: North Cascades.

Connie,

I did it with less on all three of my thru-hikes back in 1993, 1996 & 1997. All three trips I used a home made databook that got me from Mexico to Canada. It had the points on the trail, the elevation with graph and on the third copy I included some town maps.

I max out at 15 pounds including food. Of course gear is now lighter, so when I can do the trail again, I won't be carrying as much.

Wolf

Dogwood
12-15-2014, 20:16
Wolf, it would be helpful to share your background especially like the type of kits you started with, maybe how you progressed and are still progressing in your gear selections, your military training, fitness level, logistical approaches, skill set, your minimalist/survivalist type mindset - all that allow you to accept a significantly lower comfort level as a result, typical MPD avgs on the AT during a long distance hike, etc so it could be better understood your abilty to achieve such a kit/kit wt in that larger context. Why don't you share some of the stupid light mistakes you made getting to where you are?

Violent Green
12-15-2014, 22:24
"We shouldn't ignore the idea of "stupid heavy" in this conversation. I would say there are as many in that category, on the AT at least, as there are on the other end. Like the people I saw filling up 3-liter water bladders every morning when we were literally walking in fresh spring water all day--I carried no water at all many of those days. "

This is exactly what I was thinking also. Stupid heavy or stupid light - Bringing too much or too little gear due to inexperience.

Ryan

1azarus
12-15-2014, 23:06
Wolf, it would be helpful to share your background especially like the type of kits you started with, maybe how you progressed and are still progressing in your gear selections, your military training, fitness level, logistical approaches, skill set, your minimalist/survivalist type mindset - all that allow you to accept a significantly lower comfort level as a result, typical MPD avgs on the AT during a long distance hike, etc so it could be better understood your abilty to achieve such a kit/kit wt in that larger context. Why don't you share some of the stupid light mistakes you made getting to where you are?

amen dogwood... Wolf, Please!

RED-DOG
12-16-2014, 17:21
Connie,

I did it with less on all three of my thru-hikes back in 1993, 1996 & 1997. All three trips I used a home made databook that got me from Mexico to Canada. It had the points on the trail, the elevation with graph and on the third copy I included some town maps.

I max out at 15 pounds including food. Of course gear is now lighter, so when I can do the trail again, I won't be carrying as much.

Wolf
Bro tell us about it if you gonna come on WB and claim something like this, it needs to be explained with details.

1azarus
12-16-2014, 17:43
Bro tell us about it if you gonna come on WB and claim something like this, it needs to be explained with details.

hey, can't tell from your post if you are being encouraging or sarcastic...darn electronic media stuff -- trust me, Wolf is the real deal (say, unlike me!). It would be great to have him weigh in more.

Connie
12-16-2014, 18:21
I would like particulars.

Does Wolf ever do a gear list?

russb
12-16-2014, 19:47
I would like particulars.

Does Wolf ever do a gear list?


Nope. I have gathered from his posts that he won't because it isn't about the gear, it is about knowledge and experience.

Connie
12-16-2014, 19:59
"I max out at 15 pounds including food. Of course gear is now lighter, so when I can do the trail again, I won't be carrying as much."

Nevermind.

kayak karl
12-16-2014, 20:42
"I max out at 15 pounds including food. Of course gear is now lighter, so when I can do the trail again, I won't be carrying as much."

Nevermind.

are you having trouble believing it?? it is about experience and a different mindset.

Connie
12-16-2014, 20:48
I am a lightweight backpacker.

I share my information.

I don't care if he has a "gear list" or not.

I was hoping for particulars.

Now, I am inclined to not believe it.

fiddlehead
12-16-2014, 20:54
I hiked with him a bit in '96.
He only carried a fanny pack.
The only problem I had with his gear was he had only a bivy and no sleeping bag.
To me, that is a recipe for disaster.
But he did it.
(got away with it IMO)

With that said:
You really don't need much on the PCT in regards to shelter.
It only rained on us once before OR.
We sent tents up the trail and just slept out.
But the rest of us all had sleeping bags anyway.

Tipi Walter
12-16-2014, 21:06
"We shouldn't ignore the idea of "stupid heavy" in this conversation. I would say there are as many in that category, on the AT at least, as there are on the other end. Like the people I saw filling up 3-liter water bladders every morning when we were literally walking in fresh spring water all day--I carried no water at all many of those days. "

This is exactly what I was thinking also. Stupid heavy or stupid light - Bringing too much or too little gear due to inexperience.

Ryan

I'm definitely in the Stupid Heavy category. I call it the Accoutrements of Idiocy. Whatever you need to haul out on your back to keep you in the woods and hiking for as long as possible w/o resupply is what's it's all about to me. So what if you step out of the car on the first day of a 21 day trip with an 85 lb pack? So what if you go only 4 miles the first day?

Are you Out or In? If out, you're a Success. If in, well, you're a Failure.:)

Wolf - 23000
12-16-2014, 23:41
Wolf, it would be helpful to share your background especially like the type of kits you started with, maybe how you progressed and are still progressing in your gear selections, your military training, fitness level, logistical approaches, skill set, your minimalist/survivalist type mindset - all that allow you to accept a significantly lower comfort level as a result, typical MPD avgs on the AT during a long distance hike, etc so it could be better understood your abilty to achieve such a kit/kit wt in that larger context. Why don't you share some of the stupid light mistakes you made getting to where you are?

Dogwood,
To answer your question about my background, I spent 10 years in a row 1989 – 1998 hiking on average over 2,000 miles a year. Most of my hiking was done alone but a few time I did hike with people. Hiking lightweight or ultra-light makes it difficult to hike with someone who is carrying a heavy pack. It is something that not talked about much but that why someone hiking style needs to match their hiking gear. A 20 mile day for someone carrying 50 pounds on their back is a lot different than someone carrying 15 pounds. On the flip side, someone carrying 50 pounds is generally more setup to spend their time camping. It is a balance act.
I started backpacking at age 19 in 1989 thru-hiking southbound on the AT. Prior to that, I never backpacked before in my life. No backpacking schools, military training nothing like that. I was a complete newbie. To give you an idea how bad I started off carrying two monster size backpacks along with glass jar of honey, glass jars of jelly, 5 sets of jeans, cotton sweaters, saw, hatchet and enough food for over a month. You name it, I did it wrong.
Hiking southbound back then also gave me a lot of time alone to figure out what I was don’t wrong. I focus on what I was carrying. As someone young and not having a lot of money, instead of focusing on what I did not have, I focus on what I did have and how to use it in multiple ways. It helped me trim down my pack, what I didn’t need I shipped home. It took me about 2 ½ months before I was able to get my pack down to the 5 pound weight base-weight.
I have hiked now 25,000 miles hiking in all four seasons including winter hiking the AT. By the second time doing the Appalachian Trail, just looking at anyone backpack, sleeping bag, stove, filter, etc. and tell how much it weigh, and the full spec. simple because I was out there so much and saw it so often. You see every gear you can image out there and everyone always seem to want to tell you what they are carrying. It is just natural that you remember this stuff.
My recommendation to everyone trying to travel light weight and what often over-looked by many new backpackers and even many veteran hikers. Prior to selected gear figure out how you want to hike the trail. If you are hiking with a partner, you are going to carry different gear than someone hiking alone. A speed hiker is going to carry different hiker than someone spending more time camping. What time of year, location, the season. It is a different dimension that many hikers don’t even think about.
Wolf

Wolf - 23000
12-16-2014, 23:49
Bro tell us about it if you gonna come on WB and claim something like this, it needs to be explained with details.

I though it was pretty straight forward. I showed up at the Mexican boarder and used a home made data book to hike up to Canada. I did it three time in 1993, 1996, and 1997. As I went along the way made updates to my data book.

When hiking long distance it helps to keep what you are carrying to a minimal. Even in the 1990s it was possible to travel light weight.

Wolf

Connie
12-17-2014, 00:00
I know, it is taking up so much time looking at these threads, but people are now looking at all those things here, figuring what hiking they want to do, and, when.

I have "cowboy camped" bivy only. It rained. I had selected well-drained ground. I had a bug bivy. I flopped over, like a big burrito, the ground side overhead. I made a little corner to breathe. I slept well. In the morning, the ground under me was dry. I was warm and dry, to start the day. Let's see: trees not dripping. I wrapped my bivy, like a shawl. I got to those trees. I started my day.

Recently, I am thinking how many ways can I make couscous, or, even ramen, if I use seasoning packets from Knorr, or, Bear Creek soups. This is a new way for me to think about food: calories per ounce, plus volume of weight carried.

I actually increased my backpack weight, because I like no trail. I already do well, not getting lost. I was thinking drenching rain. And so, I purchased a waterproof roll-top backpack. For prepared trails, I prefer a rucksack and waist pack. I might "go for" one of these lightweight backpacks discussed frequently at White Blaze. I like a lumbar pack, for shorter walks away from the car: I always prepare for overnight.

As far as, 15 lbs. for an average 4-5 days on a thru-hike. I don't know.

Did you average 4-5 days, or more, on the trail for the thru-hike?

That is why I am interested in more particulars: I am a CDT section hiker, that likes to "blue blaze" with no blazes.

In addition, I am very interested in the Pacific NorthWest Trail: Montana to Washington State. I live and hike, in Montana. I have lived and hiked, in Washington State. I have no exoerience, in Idaho.

Dochartaigh
12-17-2014, 00:10
As far as, 15 lbs. for an average 4-5 days on a thru-hike. I don't know.

Why isn't 15 pounds doable for 5 days? I just did a quick whittling-down of my ~9.5 pound base weight, added 5 days of food (2291 cal/day is my current menu) + 1.5 liters of water and I'm at 16.65 pounds...that's even with "creature comforts" like a full tent (with bug net even!) and air mattress. I don't see why 15 pounds isn't completely doable.

Connie
12-17-2014, 00:13
I can't do 2,300 calories. I need more calories per day, and, I would like to get more days, if I can.

We don't have "convenient" trail towns, to "tank up".

OCDave
12-17-2014, 00:37
I though it was pretty straight forward. I showed up at the Mexican boarder and used a home made data book to hike up to Canada. I did it three time in 1993, 1996, and 1997.

Wolf,

This sounds like Forrest Gump. You must get tired of all the hikers behind you waiting for your words of wisdom.

Really impressive!

garlic08
12-17-2014, 09:47
...figure out how you want to hike the trail. If you are hiking with a partner, you are going to carry different gear than someone hiking alone. A speed hiker is going to carry different hiker than someone spending more time camping. What time of year, location, the season. It is a different dimension that many hikers don’t even think about.
Wolf

This is the crux of the issue, I think. Imagine a 15 pound pack hiker trying to travel with an 80-pounder. One of them is going to end up hurt, either from hypothermia (sitting around waiting most of the day) or exhaustion (trying to keep up). Both are probably going to end up thinking the other "stupid."

As I lightened my load and gained hiking experience, I realized that my ability to hike myself out of harsh weather situations allowed me to carry less insulation and shelter. Obviously, that strategy won't work when partnered with someone who can't do that, whether due to load or physical hiking ability. Also, as a solo hiker, I'll simply take more risk than I would if someone else were along whom I felt responsible for or who felt responsible for me.

I often carry more on overnighters or even some day trips (winter trips especially) than I do on a thru hike. They're more social affairs that require more sitting around and maybe liquid entertainment, or carrying extra clothing for less-experienced partners. Coming from my background, a thru hike is more a speed hike, since I started on the PCT and CDT--long trails, short seasons. (The AT, not so much.)

On the PCT and CDT, I met hikers like Wolf who were hiking 90+ plus miles between resupplies in one night out, carrying little more than a bivvy and picnic lunch, smiling along the effortless miles. I tried it and learned my middle-aged body doesn't allow me to perform that athletically. I don't call that stupid light. On the contrary, I respect the ability, discipline, and mindset that allows a few hikers to perform like that.

By the way, there's little sense publishing a gear list when all you're carrying is lunch and a bivvy. I think that's why you won't see a gear list from Wolf.

Just Bill
12-17-2014, 10:50
As I lightened my load and gained hiking experience, I realized that my ability to hike myself out of harsh weather situations allowed me to carry less insulation and shelter. Obviously, that strategy won't work when partnered with someone who can't do that, whether due to load or physical hiking ability. Also, as a solo hiker, I'll simply take more risk than I would if someone else were along whom I felt responsible for or who felt responsible for me.

I often carry more on overnighters or even some day trips (winter trips especially) than I do on a thru hike. They're more social affairs that require more sitting around and maybe liquid entertainment, or carrying extra clothing for less-experienced partners. Coming from my background, a thru hike is more a speed hike, since I started on the PCT and CDT--long trails, short seasons. (The AT, not so much.)

On the PCT and CDT, I met hikers like Wolf who were hiking 90+ plus miles between resupplies in one night out, carrying little more than a bivvy and picnic lunch, smiling along the effortless miles. I tried it and learned my middle-aged body doesn't allow me to perform that athletically. I don't call that stupid light. On the contrary, I respect the ability, discipline, and mindset that allows a few hikers to perform like that.

By the way, there's little sense publishing a gear list when all you're carrying is lunch and a bivvy. I think that's why you won't see a gear list from Wolf.

Agree with all of this.

Also 100% applaud Wolf for not publishing such a gear list. To an extent it is irresponsible. A gear list of that type is not only too personal, but a strong case for "if you're asking the question, you shouldn't get the answer".

I've never had the chance to really take gear like that on a long distance hike, but if you are considering it, doing local overnighters or practicing with a minimal kit while in the safety of a group setting is the way to lower the learning curve. Falling back on fitness can solve a lot of problems. In my case, fire and shelter building skills have been my bailouts- which are poor solutions on a long trail with any reliability, and mildly irresponsible in regards to LNT. Eventually I fell more in with Garlic's line of thinking, but those minimalist trips were of huge benefit regardless.

More-so than gear or skills though is personal awareness and experience.
Tough to publish that portion of a kit, and unfortunately it's the most critical.

Wolf - 23000
12-17-2014, 10:56
[QUOTE=garlic08;1929541]As I lightened my load and gained hiking experience, I realized that my ability to hike myself out of harsh weather situations allowed me to carry less insulation and shelter. Obviously, that strategy won't work when partnered with someone who can't do that, whether due to load or physical hiking ability. Also, as a solo hiker, I'll simply take more risk than I would if someone else were along whom I felt responsible for or who felt responsible for me.
QUOTE]

garlic08,

I've always been against is the belief that "to hike myself out of harsh weather situations". I see it all the time and I believe it is dangerous. I've been in some very harsh weather and used my gear and skills to get me through. It is part of being prepared. I've seen a lot of hikers what travel lightweight but if you talk with them they have very little wilderness skills. They rely on others if they get in trouble or the belief they can get out.

Something that is push hard and something I've always been against is to always travel with the lightest gear. Having the lightest gear is not always the right choice there has to be a balance. A good example is a tarp. There are tarps that are smaller and lighter than the 8*10 tarp that I use. I could save a few oz. by going with a smaller and lighter tarp but in harsh weather a smaller tarp is not always going to be a smart choice. In fact it can be dangerous.

In responds to your comment about publishing a gear list. I have never published a gear list, but I do get a kick out of people telling me what I am carrying and what I’m not without ever meeting me. On the AT, would you used the same gear hiking down in Georgia as you would in the White Mountains? Most likely no. On the PCT, what gear is used to hike southern CA is going to be different than someone hiking through the Sierra Mt. The place, the season, partner/solo, the experience of the hiker, there are too many variables. An experience hiker is going to know this. So how good is a gear list if the person using it doesn’t know all the way the gear can be used?

Wolf

Dochartaigh
12-17-2014, 11:14
I can't do 2,300 calories. I need more calories per day, and, I would like to get more days, if I can.

We don't have "convenient" trail towns, to "tank up".

Connie, I'm simply playing devil's advocate here (and because I like to play with the numbers on my spreadsheets ;) but how does 3,100 calories per day, for 7 days (with enough fuel for two hot meals a day) sound?

Even with a pack, tent with netting, 20º bag, mattress, full cooking setup, water treatment + bladder, first aid, headlamp/xtra batteries/compass/knife, extra clothing for cold and rain (and your feet and underwear)...I'm still only at 20.12 pounds for all that on this 'minimalist' list.

Of course that's the very bare minimum i would ever bring (and I still probably wouldn't go that light, ever), but it's completely doable with today's lightweight equipment. That list could also totally changes if things like 1.5 liters of water won't get you from watersource to watersource, or if you need a bear canister or whatnot for your specific trip, but my point is the weight we're talking about here, within reason, is completely doable.

Connie
12-17-2014, 11:15
I only mentioned a gear list. Look at the rancor.

I did ask for particulars. I get generalities.

I asked for a specific trail. Any help?

I said where I am experienced, and, not. I have no experience of Idaho.

I don't expect everything, but I do expect something.

Otherwise, why post in a thread about "ultra light - stupid light" and ignore a reasonable question, while only apparently bragging to your "buddies" you know more than us, and, it would take too much time to provide an explanation?

How about, there was frequent resupply available, or, I hiked 2,000 miles every year for 10-years but all of those miles were on the AT if that is the case?

I have heard no particulars.

Connie
12-17-2014, 11:29
Dochartaigh, that's just it: 20 lbs. I have been at 20 lbs. backpack for 50+ years, starting with mountainclimbing. I was a rope leader by 15 years old. I had grey hair start when I was 9 years old. By that means, grown men didn't know they had just been rescued by "a little girl".

Backpacking, a different activity, and, in different seasons and in different locales I am still at 20 lbs. backpack.

I want to do that trail, I mentioned.

I don't see it. Still looking at it, I would like to do it.

I have purchased more expensive lightweight gear: Hammock Gear Burrow 20 F, NeoAir XTherm, Oware Asym1 tarp (I may yet change out) Borah Gear side zip bivy (not my OR bug bivy) and lukesultralight down vest, sleeves and hood.


Garlic08, The most famous long-distance runner doesn't do 90+ miles without resupply in that kind of terrain.

edit: I stand corrected. "In October 2005, Karnazes ran 350 miles in northern California. It took him 80 hrs and 44 min, an average pace of 13 minutes per mile. (No, he did not stop to sleep.)" that works out to 105 miles in 24 hours.
ref: http://www.athleteinme.com/ArticleView.aspx?id=1858

I am thinking, however, people who write they have hiked the Pacific Northwest Trail are "weak" on details. I don't think they did hike that entire "trail".

Tipi Walter
12-17-2014, 11:29
As I lightened my load and gained hiking experience, I realized that my ability to hike myself out of harsh weather situations allowed me to carry less insulation and shelter.


But some of us do not want to avoid harsh weather conditions, in fact some of us seek out the worst weather we can find. We just carry the gear we need to enjoy it. See Wolf's post below on his take on it.




I've always been against is the belief that "to hike myself out of harsh weather situations". I see it all the time and I believe it is dangerous. I've been in some very harsh weather and used my gear and skills to get me through. It is part of being prepared. I've seen a lot of hikers what travel lightweight but if you talk with them they have very little wilderness skills. They rely on others if they get in trouble or the belief they can get out.

Something that is push hard and something I've always been against is to always travel with the lightest gear. Having the lightest gear is not always the right choice there has to be a balance. A good example is a tarp. There are tarps that are smaller and lighter than the 8*10 tarp that I use. I could save a few oz. by going with a smaller and lighter tarp but in harsh weather a smaller tarp is not always going to be a smart choice. In fact it can be dangerous.

Wolf

In regards to a tiny tarp, everyone should check out Dzjow's Adventure Blog here---

http://dzjow.com/2011/06/08/tarping-with-the-grace-solo-spinntex-97/

Here's a pic of his tarp in action---

http://farm5.static.flickr.com/4146/5056880724_9cfbe279e6_z.jpg
(This is Dzjow's pic taken from his blog).

DZJOW'S ADVENTURE BLOG
Here's the first quote from Dzjow which I find perplexing---

"The years before I started with tarping I had only used a HIlleberg Akto tent . . . . but the desire to be able to sleep very high in the mountains and why not on top of a rocky mountain summit where it's impossible to pitch a tent, convinced me to search for an alternative for the Akto."


My response? Well, if you can't put up the Akto with its 2 or 3 pegs, how the heck will you put up your Grace tarp with its 4 or more pegs?

Now let's talk about the reality of using such a small tarp in real world conditions. He says---

" . . . .but I have to admit, tarping with such a small tarp is not always that fun and comfortable, so I think it will not be suitable for everyone."


Another time in a bad storm---
"Rain splashed under the tarp and my sleeping bag became a bit moist."


And then he says: "The really arduous situation where it becomes awkward with such a small tarp is under a heavy rain shower or thunderstorm. Rain splash will inevitably jump under the tarp wetting everything, as will be the case with hailstones. Moreover, thunderstorms in the mountains are often accompanied with severe wind gusts which can blow from any direction making it even more difficult to stay dry under the tarp and augmenting the risk of pulling out the stakes blowing the tarp away."


Wow. I get heavy rain showers and high winds on a regular basis and so this tarp wouldn't work for me. "Wetting everything" about says it all. Another quote---


"Despite the fact a tarp is only recommended for 3 season use, the Grace Solo tarp can handle wet snow pretty well as long as there isn't too much wind . . ."


But here's the thing, snowstorms are often accompanied by tremendous blizzard winds. So, in regards to snow he says---


"Really dry snowfall . . . can be very problematic because the snow might blow under the tarp accumulating against the bivy bag."


In one storm he " . . . got completely buried under the snow in my bivy bag because of heavy accumulation under the tarp."


I call it spindrift.


So, let's summarize. For a shelter his tarp occasionally allows everything to get wet and at times fills with spindrift snow. I'll stick with my double wall 4 season tent.

Anyway, this thread isn't about tarp camping but about going minimal. I wouldn't call Dzjow stupid light but I found some problems in his choice of shelter.

colorado_rob
12-17-2014, 11:33
One thing the "stupid-heavy" folks keep harping on over and over and over is that being UL implies being less than fully equipped. I'll stack my UL kit up against anyone as far as being as safely (AND comfortably) equipped as anyone in the heavier-carry categories. I think one has to get into the extreme UL categories (4-6 lb base, depending on seasons) before one has to sacrifice some basics of comfort and safety. this all assumes one has the experience to pull it off.

But the real bonus to UL kits (say, 8-11 lb in summer) is that losing another 3-4 pounds of gear really doesn't seem to make any difference to comfort on the trail. There seems to be a cutoff (for me) of approximately 20-22 lbs total (including food and water) below which I don't notice any difference. So basically, one other "stupid UL" definition for me is losing these few extra pounds of comfort/safety for essentially zero hiking comfort gain.

RED-DOG
12-17-2014, 11:51
I agree your kit needs to fit your hiking style but i think 2300 calories a day is not enough, when i do the PCT next year my set up will weigh in the 25-26lbs thats with food,water and fuel and i will be eating around 4000-4500 calories per day and i will be doing roughly around 25MPD so yeah my kit matches my style.

On all three of my AT thru's my pack NEVER weighed more than 30lbs.

Connie
12-17-2014, 11:59
Tipi Walter, I like that!

I like the weather. I don't like the enclosure of a tent.

For example, I wear Nylon Supplex "walk dry" long pants. I think I may have coined the term: walk dry. Nylon supplex long "chinos" will walk dry.

I looked at my Pearl Izumi Relaxed Fit tights label: polyester and elastane. I just got these. Before that, I had Pearl Izumi Toyko Tights, made of the identical material? I don't know. But these "bicycle" pants work for shoulder season and "winter" right up until I get on my Remington "silent" rain suit "hunter's" bibs: about 5 F.

By the way, it is a lot easier to shake the moisture, or, ice off a small-ish tarp, than a 4-season tent.

And then he says: "The really arduous situation where it becomes awkward with such a small tarp is under a heavy rain shower or thunderstorm. Rain splash will inevitably jump under the tarp wetting everything, as will be the case with hailstones. Moreover, thunderstorms in the mountains are often accompanied with severe wind gusts which can blow from any direction making it even more difficult to stay dry under the tarp and augmenting the risk of pulling out the stakes blowing the tarp away."

TiGoat has a Bug Bivy, that looks a lot more like a "bathtub" base of a net tent for under a tarp. I have been looking at the "bathtub" style. One net tent has cloth ends that would function as a windbreak for the ends, if the only "pitch" available is a "pitch" with open ends.

Tipi Walter
12-17-2014, 12:00
I agree your kit needs to fit your hiking style but i think 2300 calories a day is not enough, when i do the PCT next year my set up will weigh in the 25-26lbs thats with food,water and fuel and i will be eating around 4000-4500 calories per day and i will be doing roughly around 25MPD so yeah my kit matches my style.

On all three of my AT thru's my pack NEVER weighed more than 30lbs.

That's probably because you kept your food load low with constant resupplies. Some of us want to enter the woods and not come out for 3 weeks and not touch folding money or hike to a store or see an automobile or cavort with non-hiking civilians. So, my food load is usually around 45 lbs alone, not to mention the other gear.

I remember reading Eric Ryback's AT thruhike back in 1970 when he mentioned loading up his old pack with 21 days worth of food and he felt great knowing he could stay on the trail for weeks w/o having to interrupt his trip with town trips. Excellent advice. By then his legs were like pistons and the weight didn't bother him in the least. Amen, pass the gorp.

Tipi Walter
12-17-2014, 12:06
I like the weather. I don't like the enclosure of a tent.



I'm just the opposite---I'm a nester by nature and look at my tent fondly in all conditions and esp when conditions go south. There's nothing better than what I call Being in the Raven's Yard---sleeping thru an all-night hellstorm or sleetstorm on a mountain top with velcro-ripping horizontal rain or sleet and wind whipping gusts and being bone dry and rocked in the cradle of Miss Nature's moods. I love the enclosure of a good tent.

RED-DOG
12-17-2014, 12:23
That's probably because you kept your food load low with constant resupplies. Some of us want to enter the woods and not come out for 3 weeks and not touch folding money or hike to a store or see an automobile or cavort with non-hiking civilians. So, my food load is usually around 45 lbs alone, not to mention the other gear.

I remember reading Eric Ryback's AT thruhike back in 1970 when he mentioned loading up his old pack with 21 days worth of food and he felt great knowing he could stay on the trail for weeks w/o having to interrupt his trip with town trips. Excellent advice. By then his legs were like pistons and the weight didn't bother him in the least. Amen, pass the gorp.

On the AT i get resupplied every 5-6 days, however i have done trips into the rocky mountains with 25 days of food, I feel a person needs to pack accordingly to the enviroment/region they are going into.
back in the early 2000's i was on a national park kick and i did the Yellowstone got resupplied twice each time it was 30 days of food.
Pack heavy when you have to however go-lite whenever you can.

Connie
12-17-2014, 12:31
RED-DOG, "I agree your kit needs to fit your hiking style but i think 2300 calories a day is not enough, when i do the PCT next year my set up will weigh in the 25-26lbs thats with food,water and fuel and i will be eating around 4000-4500 (tel:4000-4500) calories per day and i will be doing roughly around 25MPD so yeah my kit matches my style."

I need 5,500-6,000 calories, if winter-conditions.

Mountainclimbing, I had that caloric intake and a 20 lb. pack by wearing all my clothing, relying on ventilating my clothing, rather than removing layers.

I still haven't, consistently, achieved 4,000-4,500 calories per day.

I know I have too limited a menu: I just can't thrive on the same food day in and day out. I need variety. I am still working to achieve that.

Connie
12-17-2014, 12:33
I'm just the opposite---I'm a nester by nature and look at my tent fondly in all conditions and esp when conditions go south. There's nothing better than what I call Being in the Raven's Yard---sleeping thru an all-night hellstorm or sleetstorm on a mountain top with velcro-ripping horizontal rain or sleet and wind whipping gusts and being bone dry and rocked in the cradle of Miss Nature's moods. I love the enclosure of a good tent.

You have a way with words!

It sounds like "the perfect tent".

garlic08
12-17-2014, 12:36
I've always been against is the belief that "to hike myself out of harsh weather situations". I see it all the time and I believe it is dangerous...

Thanks for the feedback on this. It's good to hear your viewpoint and I respect it very much. Of course, we have to consider the what-if scenario of an injury, even a minor one.

Dogwood
12-17-2014, 17:17
That's probably because you kept your food load low with constant resupplies. Some of us want to enter the woods and not come out for 3 weeks and not touch folding money or hike to a store or see an automobile or cavort with non-hiking civilians. So, my food load is usually around 45 lbs alone, not to mention the other gear.

I remember reading Eric Ryback's AT thruhike back in 1970 when he mentioned loading up his old pack with 21 days worth of food and he felt great knowing he could stay on the trail for weeks w/o having to interrupt his trip with town trips. Excellent advice. By then his legs were like pistons and the weight didn't bother him in the least. Amen, pass the gorp.


I'm definitely in the Stupid Heavy category. I call it the Accoutrements of Idiocy. Whatever you need to haul out on your back to keep you in the woods and hiking for as long as possible w/o resupply is what's it's all about to me. So what if you step out of the car on the first day of a 21 day trip with an 85 lb pack? So what if you go only 4 miles the first day?

Are you Out or In? If out, you're a Success. If in, well, you're a Failure.:)


I'm just the opposite---I'm a nester by nature and look at my tent fondly in all conditions and esp when conditions go south. There's nothing better than what I call Being in the Raven's Yard---sleeping thru an all-night hellstorm or sleetstorm on a mountain top with velcro-ripping horizontal rain or sleet and wind whipping gusts and being bone dry and rocked in the cradle of Miss Nature's moods. I love the enclosure of a good tent.

Confessions of an unabashed unrepentant poetic campaholic.:) Just an observation. Not meant to be an ad hominem tempered by a smiley. Hmm, so much for touting that free-roaming spirit when the idea of free roaming extends to this type of thinking, "So what if you go only 4 miles the first day?"

What Ryback did, carrying 21 days of food at a time, was not done solely out of choice, which is what you currently do Tipi. He did it more out of necessity as he was largely a young ignorant kid completing the Triple Crown at a time when the PCT and CDT especially were without availability of the wider logistical resupply information and support currently available. Yes, paraphrased a bit, but this is taken largely from what I've had the pleasure of him sharing in person. I too admired what he did though. He's the first to agree that backpacking styles have changed in the time since he completed the TC. And, according to what he shared in person, he would likely change up some of the tactics he employed in the early 1970's should he ever consider a second crown, including not carrying so much weight - including not carrying so much food.

Another Kevin
12-17-2014, 19:55
I could get my pack weight down to the UL range fairly easily at this point - buy or make an UL quilt, switch to a lighter pack (which would be adequate for my summer load) and a torso-length sleeping pad, and I'd surely be down to a 10 pound base weight or so.

I simply don't choose to. I use everything I carry with the exception of emergency gear (and I've used most of that on one trip or another). I could make do without, and get in more miles, but for me it wouldn't be as much fun. If you have more fun by making more miles, fine. I'm probably never going to be a true long-distance hiker. It doesn't appeal to me.

I don't join in when guys are comparing the size of their .... backpacks. I bring what works for me - and I'm happy to discuss it from that standpoint - but I won't try to prescribe what anyone else needs. (Except, perhaps, for basic safety. For example, if I were to lead a peak-bagging trip at this time of year, everyone in the party would have snowshoes, poles, ice axe, and full crampons, or they would not be going.)