Union Suits anyone? Or things like them for winter camping?

[LogHiking]

I'm looking for a very warm base layer system for winter camping. I'm not concerned about wearing it while hiking, but for once I'm at camp and it is very cold out and you are moving much less. I would also like to wear it sleeping. I read Connie post something about union suits in another thread (not sure if it was recent) and it got me thinking a really warm one piece wool suit would be pretty great for what I'm looking for, but I'm unsure how well it works in actual practice. Anyone use one of these and have any recommendations?

I've found this. Seems to be positively reviewed overall although a lot of people don't love the flap design. And obviously it isn't wool, but I'm considering trying it out.

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-capilene-4-baselayer-expedition-weight-one-piece-suit?p=43700-0

Thanks all!

[Connie]

I had a Stanfield "Red Label" one-piece union suit, no trap door. I heard fishermen out on the west coast wear "Red Label" wool and nylon, I thought I would try. I like the "Red Label" best for warmth, and, no odor.

Skiers have all sorts of "arrangements" for not removing all your clothing, now, better than the trap door maybe. I have no experience with that.

My all-winter two-piece longjohns are wool and silk. I got mine mail-order from Winter Silks.

This year, I found two-piece wool and silk longjohns in Denmark. http://danishwool.com/product-category/adults/long-underwear-adults/?gclid=CLjZ_OOUpsICFRSFfgodHw0Ayg

[Tipi Walter]

Don't do it!! I used several one piece union suits for winter camping and backpacking back in the 1980's and they just have too many problems.

First off, you say it will be used for camp only and not for hiking but then you just limited the flexibility of your hiking layers immensely. A separate top layer and a separate bottom layer is the way to go as these can be worn while hiking in the cold and also used for camping and sleeping, and can be removed for sweat management.

Try backpacking with a union suit as a base or midlayer and you'll go nuts. It'll get way too hot and your only option is to undo the top and let it drape around your waist and around your pack hipbelt. And taking dumps with a union suit is always inefficient and problematic. And the butt flap design always ends up flecked with stoolage. Not good.

A much better solution is to get a good fleece/polypro or merino top and a good long john bottom. Use these for hiking in the winter and for sleeping. Keep them dry. And for warmth in camp instead of this union suit, get a good lightweight down jacket and down pants. Much warmer.

[Slo-go'en]

When I was winter caretaker at the Gray Knob cabin on Mt Adams, I lived in my union suit for 4 solid months :) Of course, it was a really cold winter with it often 20 below and the cabin was rarely warmer then 40 inside. Just keeping a 90 year old log cabin at tree line above freezing inside wasn't easy in those temps which lasted for weeks. I also wore it the next winter when I made snow at Wildcat.

The nice thing about a Union suit is there is no seam in the middle which really helps when sleeping. Separate tops and bottoms tend to spread and makes for a cold spot around your middle at night in a bag. Go for a wool/nylon blend or it will be itchy!

I wish it still fit, but I'm not quite as skinny as I was back then.

[Connie]

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mens-capilene-4-baselayer-expedition-weight-one-piece-suit?p=43700-0

I was convinced to have a one-piece like that two or three times. It works well with my oilskins, for coastal sailing, not so much in Winter weather.

It dries the skin excessively, either Patagonia or Helly Hansen medium-weight or expedition weight. I wore silk under it all. I was okay.

I think Below Zero is the book, where a wilderness medicine MD explains the skin needs "insensible moisture".

I use my "moisture transport" layer, if any, only as a second layer. Not the next-to-skin layer.

I prefer ventilation: double zipper, jacket side seam zips, "hip zips" or opening up pants and relying on suspenders.

I like "bibs" for no constriction at the waistband, for covering "the gap" of top and bottem, and, for the suspenders.

I need all this, in Montana.

If you are "active" do what Tipi Walter said.

[LogHiking]

I had a Stanfield "Red Label" one-piece union suit, no trap door. I heard fishermen out on the west coast wear "Red Label" wool and nylon, I thought I would try. I like the "Red Label" best for warmth, and, no odor.

Skiers have all sorts of "arrangements" for not removing all your clothing, now, better than the trap door maybe. I have no experience with that.

My all-winter two-piece longjohns are wool and silk. I got mine mail-order from Winter Silks.

This year, I found two-piece wool and silk longjohns in Denmark. http://danishwool.com/product-category/adults/long-underwear-adults/?gclid=CLjZ_OOUpsICFRSFfgodHw0Ayg


Thanks Connie, the stanfield are the ones I was referring to. Would you recommend them for wearing around camp and sleeping in during winter camping? Again assuming I did not want to actually hike in them, but change into them when camp is all set up.

[Rolex]

And the butt flap design always ends up flecked with stoolage. Not good.

.

Tipi, I have to say.... There is a thought that I never thought I would have to ponder.
Rolex

[LogHiking]

Don't do it!! I used several one piece union suits for winter camping and backpacking back in the 1980's and they just have too many problems.

First off, you say it will be used for camp only and not for hiking but then you just limited the flexibility of your hiking layers immensely. A separate top layer and a separate bottom layer is the way to go as these can be worn while hiking in the cold and also used for camping and sleeping, and can be removed for sweat management.

Try backpacking with a union suit as a base or midlayer and you'll go nuts. It'll get way too hot and your only option is to undo the top and let it drape around your waist and around your pack hipbelt. And taking dumps with a union suit is always inefficient and problematic. And the butt flap design always ends up flecked with stoolage. Not good.

A much better solution is to get a good fleece/polypro or merino top and a good long john bottom. Use these for hiking in the winter and for sleeping. Keep them dry. And for warmth in camp instead of this union suit, get a good lightweight down jacket and down pants. Much warmer.


Thank you for the advice. Only thing I would like to add is we don't usually do a ton of hiking during our winter camping. It is more of a base camp situation. So while I agree with the lack of efficiency, we are basically car camping 2-3 miles from the car. With that said, having better equipment for hiking if I decided to do that would be good so I'm listening.

I would like to try this direction as opposed to spending a chunk of money on buying another down jacket (mine is a midweight, not warm enough) and down pants that I'm only going to use winter camping a couple times a year. I can have other uses for a beefed up base layer. So in your opinion, what is the warmest stuff one can wear out there?

[LogHiking]

When I was winter caretaker at the Gray Knob cabin on Mt Adams, I lived in my union suit for 4 solid months :) Of course, it was a really cold winter with it often 20 below and the cabin was rarely warmer then 40 inside. Just keeping a 90 year old log cabin at tree line above freezing inside wasn't easy in those temps which lasted for weeks. I also wore it the next winter when I made snow at Wildcat.

The nice thing about a Union suit is there is no seam in the middle which really helps when sleeping. Separate tops and bottoms tend to spread and makes for a cold spot around your middle at night in a bag. Go for a wool/nylon blend or it will be itchy!

I wish it still fit, but I'm not quite as skinny as I was back then.

See that all makes me very much want one!

[Connie]

I wore my Stanfield's "Red Label" with oilskins, for sailing San Francisco Bay and ocean for the right amount of warmth and ventilation (open weave) with oilskin bibs and open up oilskin jacket, warmth and no odor.

Do try Stanfield's "Red Label": see what you think.

I did wear the Stanfield's "Red Label" for the 4+ mile and back 4+ mile drifted snow solid ice dirt road "easy" walk to St. Mary, MT to have coffee. That was that year the grocery store remained open Winter.

I prefer the wool-silk longjohns for what you plan, I think. No comparison.

I wore mine an entire Winter, including the "warmest" day out of four days was -34 F. I know, because a man came out of his house to tell me.

I said, but there is no wind.

I walked that drifted-over solid ice dirt road into St. Mary, MT to have coffee at that grocery store: a person has to "socialize" by getting around other people, in Winter. Aside from shopping, in town, and dragging the groceries in a kid's sled over snow while "post-holing" from the road to my camp, that is the most activity. No, I also walked 9+ miles and back 9+ miles St. Mary Rd. to feed about 18 horses for a lady. That involved a week or 10-days, until she returned. The snowplow had completely buried my truck.

I wore the 2-piece wool-silk longjohns the entire Winter, only changing my underwear. Just right warm and no odor. Nothing better, in that experience.

Living with 65 F central heating, I haven't needed it.

[Connie]

LogHiking, you might consider a "hot tent".
http://www.bplite.com/viewtopic.php?f=60&t=4539&p=50206&hilit=Tent#p50206

Stanfield's "Red Label" could be just the thing, there.

[Tipi Walter]

Thank you for the advice. Only thing I would like to add is we don't usually do a ton of hiking during our winter camping. It is more of a base camp situation. So while I agree with the lack of efficiency, we are basically car camping 2-3 miles from the car. With that said, having better equipment for hiking if I decided to do that would be good so I'm listening.

I would like to try this direction as opposed to spending a chunk of money on buying another down jacket (mine is a midweight, not warm enough) and down pants that I'm only going to use winter camping a couple times a year. I can have other uses for a beefed up base layer. So in your opinion, what is the warmest stuff one can wear out there?

In your situation you are right to consider a one piece suit or union suit. BTW, most union suits are all cotton or 50% cotton with 50% wool. Cotton is never a good choice unless you're car camping with a short hike in as above.

Another option to stay warm in camp situation when cash is limited is to go the one-piece quilted insulated suit idea. I used one for a couple winters camping around Boone NC and it was a yard-sale throwaway item with a zipper from crotch to neck and dang warm. An example is below---

http://www.fishingmegastore.com/images/ron%20thompson/thermal-suit-1-piece.jpg
I used one of these because I had no money and I needed to stay warm on my winter backpacking trips and it works but at a price.

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-s0jlVS4qUOQ/TIOCRSYTjJI/AAAAAAAABCE/MxZxjBc2eyk/w584-h480-no/big%2Bdon%2Band%2Btipi%2Bsmaler84.jpg
This is how people in poverty stayed warm during the winter in the mountains of NC. At the time I was living out of my North Face backpack around Boone NC from '80 thru '87 and me and my buddy Big Don went to a Unitarian Church for a Christmas dinner. I am wearing my one piece quilted suit and Big Don is wearing what poor people used to wear to stay warm---a cheap down jacket with an Army fatigue jacket with the quilted poly liner.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-eZDg-tuGhnE/TIJ7KspJNwI/AAAAAAAAA7U/0uzokNI4eWE/w447-h640-no/Tipi%2BWalter%2BCamping%2Bat%2BLaurel%2BFalls%2Bon %2BAT%2C%2B1989.jpg
Another option is to go the Army poly liner route as they are cheap and can be figured as stand-alone layers with a few added buttons. This was by Laurel Falls on the AT back in '89. Yes, blue jeans work great for backpacking if you're poor and willing to pay the price.

[Connie]

I hadn't thought of that... one piece "farmers" or "ranchers" insulated overalls with medium-weight longjohns work quite well. Wall's or Carhatt's. The outside is canvas. The boots are insulated Mucks.

There are also ski-doo one-piece snowsuits. High fashion.

[Tipi Walter]

I hadn't thought of that... one piece "farmers" or "ranchers" insulated overalls with medium-weight longjohns work quite well. Wall's or Carhatt's. The outside is canvas. The boots are insulated Mucks.

There are also ski-doo one-piece snowsuits. High fashion.

Back in '77 I worked for the Boone water department and we wore these overalls and the idea stuck when I started to live outdoors on a more permanent basis. The Carhartt suits are dang tough and dang warm when wearing a heavy pack up a winter mountainside. Too hot in fact as sweat management can only be achieved by dumping the pack and unzipping the torso layer and have it dangle down around the waist. They are warm and tough and at times a sweatlodge.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cm/popularmechanics/images/ps/quilt-lined-coveralls-0114-de.jpg
From the Carhartt website.

[Connie]

How are those standing still, or, sitting around?

[Tipi Walter]

How are those standing still, or, sitting around?

Excellent esp when fortified with ample inner layers. The no-waist opening really makes a difference. Remember, some of these suits are quilted with poly insulation.

[Slo-go'en]

For that kind of just sitting around in the cold, I'd get me a snowmobile suit.

[Tipi Walter]

For that kind of just sitting around in the cold, I'd get me a snowmobile suit.

A snowmobile suit is similar to an insulated Carhartt except it's beefier and much more expensive---a good one is in the $700 range.

http://www.foundmark.com/pers/gallery/parkas/onepiece/Image/FFDownSuit.gif
A much warmer solution would be a full down suit like Feathered Friends. Not cheap but warm.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-Warriors-Passage/i-c2qBqSV/0/M/TRIP%20128%20015-M.jpg
I achieved the same results with WM down pants and a FF down parka, a little more practical and efficient than a full down suit.

[colorado_rob]

I used to wear one skiing all the time, great for day-trips, not so good for multiday backpacking because of reasons already stated. To contain body heat in the mid-section (AKA: belly area) I do use pants with suspenders in cold weather hiking/climbing/backpacking, but I learned to be careful about where to wear the suspenders in terms of layers; in bitter cold weather I make sure the suspenders are on top of a couple layers, like a base layer and a second layer, maybe a fleece or second top of some sort. that way when nature calls and you have to drop those suspenders you can do so and still have a couple of top layers.

Union suits are very nostalgic for myself, having worn them all the time in the 70's and 80's (both skiing and cold weather backpacking), and my 20-something son wears them a lot now because of the cool retro aspect, but for myself, certainly no more. Way better options out there, like UL down garments.

[LogHiking]

Thank you all for the responses. They taught me my idea wasn't very good and I will not be pursuing it. I'm not willing to abandon backpacking completely so the much heavier and bulkier options recommended won't work for me either. I was attempting some sort of middle ground, of which there does not seem to be, at least not that route.

So to everyone recommending down pants and jacket, I take it you aren't sitting on rocks or the ground with your down pants? I assume you aren't sitting particularly close to the fire? If so how are you bypassing the durability issues?

Thanks!

[Tipi Walter]

Thank you all for the responses. They taught me my idea wasn't very good and I will not be pursuing it. I'm not willing to abandon backpacking completely so the much heavier and bulkier options recommended won't work for me either. I was attempting some sort of middle ground, of which there does not seem to be, at least not that route.

So to everyone recommending down pants and jacket, I take it you aren't sitting on rocks or the ground with your down pants? I assume you aren't sitting particularly close to the fire? If so how are you bypassing the durability issues?

Thanks!

Down gear is worth its weight in gold and is treated accordingly. Extra caution is always needed when you pay $700 for a great light 900 fill sleeping bag, or high cash for a good down parka and pants. These are survival investments for a life spent outdoors.

I don't usually build campfires ever unless I'm camping with other people but most of my trips are solo so there's no need for a fire. Why build a fire if I'm swaddled in geese? So I don't have to worry about ash pinholes in my down items or tent.

And you're right, you won't be sitting on a snowy rock or in the snow in your down pants, but then that's why we carry ccf pads as insulated sit pads, or we stay in the tent and sit on the Thermarest inflatable. Sometimes I use my croc camp shoes as a sit pad when I'm backpacking thru the snow and need to take a break.

[colorado_rob]

So to everyone recommending down pants and jacket, I take it you aren't sitting on rocks or the ground with your down pants? I assume you aren't sitting particularly close to the fire? If so how are you bypassing the durability issues?

Thanks!Surprisingly, my (at least) UL down garments are fairly durable, but yes, I get the occasional fire-ember pinhole, easily fixed with a small piece of duct tape (or "tenacious tape", the best repair tape out there). Sleeping pad serves as a sit pad until bed time, don't remember ever getting a hole in any down garment other than embers (a necessary evil for a warm, cozy fire) or caught on a tree branch when hiking (rarely ever wear down hiking, unless at crazy 17K+ altitudes)

[rocketsocks]

I don't like the old red cotton union suits anymore. Went squat once and pee'd all over the front and didn't even know it till I stood up...somma ma bitch. :eek:

...just thought i had clearance. :o

[LogHiking]

Down gear is worth its weight in gold and is treated accordingly. Extra caution is always needed when you pay $700 for a great light 900 fill sleeping bag, or high cash for a good down parka and pants. These are survival investments for a life spent outdoors.

I don't usually build campfires ever unless I'm camping with other people but most of my trips are solo so there's no need for a fire. Why build a fire if I'm swaddled in geese? So I don't have to worry about ash pinholes in my down items or tent.

And you're right, you won't be sitting on a snowy rock or in the snow in your down pants, but then that's why we carry ccf pads as insulated sit pads, or we stay in the tent and sit on the Thermarest inflatable. Sometimes I use my croc camp shoes as a sit pad when I'm backpacking thru the snow and need to take a break.

Fair enough. However as our end goals are very different, I see it as pretty unlikely our gear choices would be the same. While I'm glad you have found what works for you, that simply won't work for me. Both the gear choices and the methods used to protect said gear choices.

[rocketsocks]

Down gear is worth its weight in gold and is treated accordingly. Extra caution is always needed when you pay $700 for a great light 900 fill sleeping bag, or high cash for a good down parka and pants. These are survival investments for a life spent outdoors.

I don't usually build campfires ever unless I'm camping with other people but most of my trips are solo so there's no need for a fire. Why build a fire if I'm swaddled in geese? So I don't have to worry about ash pinholes in my down items or tent.

And you're right, you won't be sitting on a snowy rock or in the snow in your down pants, but then that's why we carry ccf pads as insulated sit pads, or we stay in the tent and sit on the Thermarest inflatable. Sometimes I use my croc camp shoes as a sit pad when I'm backpacking thru the snow and need to take a break.I'd sport down pants iffin' I could afford em....justifiably that is...to Mama. So fer now I just been using john's, heavy fleece 300wt, and rain pants over. Works pretty good, but way more bulky in the pack than down pants would be.

[rocketsocks]

...now where's that "what I want for Christmas" thread ? :-?

[Ktaadn]

The key for me is buying shirts that are long enough to tuck into my pants and stay tucked in. Same goes for coats too. They should be long enough to cover your lower back while seated. It takes some shopping around and trying on, but it has worked for me.

I do have a red LL Bean union suit that I wear around the house during the winter months. It is more of a gag item, but it is fun and I will no doubt have it on next Thursday morning. I would never take it hiking or camping.

[Connie]

I like bicycling "jerseys" shirts, short sleeve or long sleeve, as a second layer because they have extra long tuck-in provided. I have found bicycling jerseys without pockets in the back. For ordinary cold weather, these work very well.