View Full Version : Saving other folks
squeezebox
12-15-2014, 01:43
Another where's the line question. So where as fellow humans, fellow hikers , where is our responsibility to save others from their bad choices. Situation! Someone comes into a shelter late, maybe GSMNP, and demands shelter space because he did not bring shelter or rain gear. Maybe in serious trouble or not. has a permit or not. Temp is dropping or not. It's April 1, not July 1. What's my responsibility for saving his stupid self?
How many people in the shelter already?
BaxterBear
12-15-2014, 03:51
Basic human decency requires us to be helpful to our fellow man and woman. We are expected to be helpful and compassionate to family and friends, but it shows true character to go out of your way for a stranger. That stranger has family and friends, and it is not our place to be judge, jury, and possibly - indirect executioner by denying access to the shelter. If one has a tent that person should vacate the shelter and allow the other person to gain shelter.
This shows wisdom and displays that you are prepared to take care of your own person.
While unfortunate the person at risk is making demands, often times in a stressful situation one can come off as brash and demanding when in fact they are terrified and scared. Everyone is unique and reacts to stress in different ways. This person might be terribly embarrassed internally and as a matter of egotistic pride choose to portray a demanding persona in an attempt to combat the fear they might be in, and to maintain some semblance of control of their life and situation. Experienced hikers like ourselves need to remember for someone who get entranced by a manufactured dream of the ideal Appalachian Trail thru-hike - that's it's all sunny blue skies and smelling the flowers, when they get in over their heads it's a terrifying realization once they grasp their reality.
Attempt a friendly conversation in the morning with the person to better help them be able to protect themselves. Once this is done or if the person refuses to listen just let it go, it is far better for the soul to let things go and to forgive.
freightliner
12-15-2014, 03:54
Make him sleep on the dirt with your shoes.
illabelle
12-15-2014, 06:56
Basic human decency requires us to be helpful to our fellow man and woman. We are expected to be helpful and compassionate to family and friends, but it shows true character to go out of your way for a stranger. That stranger has family and friends, and it is not our place to be judge, jury, and possibly - indirect executioner by denying access to the shelter. If one has a tent that person should vacate the shelter and allow the other person to gain shelter.
This shows wisdom and displays that you are prepared to take care of your own person.
While unfortunate the person at risk is making demands, often times in a stressful situation one can come off as brash and demanding when in fact they are terrified and scared. Everyone is unique and reacts to stress in different ways. This person might be terribly embarrassed internally and as a matter of egotistic pride choose to portray a demanding persona in an attempt to combat the fear they might be in, and to maintain some semblance of control of their life and situation. Experienced hikers like ourselves need to remember for someone who get entranced by a manufactured dream of the ideal Appalachian Trail thru-hike - that's it's all sunny blue skies and smelling the flowers, when they get in over their heads it's a terrifying realization once they grasp their reality.
Attempt a friendly conversation in the morning with the person to better help them be able to protect themselves. Once this is done or if the person refuses to listen just let it go, it is far better for the soul to let things go and to forgive.
Excellent!!
I believe that we have obligations to help others if we can do so without putting our lives in automatic danger by assisting. In the example of the full shelter, the question depends on whether the shelter-less hiker's life is in danger or whether he just faces a long uncomfortable night. It also depends on whether the person giving up his space has a serviceable shelter. I don't believe that there is an obligation to automatically sacrifice my own life to assist someone else. But there might be exceptions like saving a child. There are countless scenarios and examples that one can go through but the simple litmus test is try to help if possible in life and death situations even if someone's stupidity is at fault.
One needs to come to terms with the idea that if you decide to help people (and I hope we all do), sometimes one will be saving a life or at least making the world a better place by spreading kindness, and sometimes one will get taken advantage of by unscrupulous folks. We all have to decide for ourselves how to balance this.
Traveler
12-15-2014, 07:42
Basic human decency requires us to be helpful to our fellow man and woman. We are expected to be helpful and compassionate to family and friends, but it shows true character to go out of your way for a stranger. That stranger has family and friends, and it is not our place to be judge, jury, and possibly - indirect executioner by denying access to the shelter. If one has a tent that person should vacate the shelter and allow the other person to gain shelter.
This shows wisdom and displays that you are prepared to take care of your own person.
While unfortunate the person at risk is making demands, often times in a stressful situation one can come off as brash and demanding when in fact they are terrified and scared. Everyone is unique and reacts to stress in different ways. This person might be terribly embarrassed internally and as a matter of egotistic pride choose to portray a demanding persona in an attempt to combat the fear they might be in, and to maintain some semblance of control of their life and situation. Experienced hikers like ourselves need to remember for someone who get entranced by a manufactured dream of the ideal Appalachian Trail thru-hike - that's it's all sunny blue skies and smelling the flowers, when they get in over their heads it's a terrifying realization once they grasp their reality.
Attempt a friendly conversation in the morning with the person to better help them be able to protect themselves. Once this is done or if the person refuses to listen just let it go, it is far better for the soul to let things go and to forgive.
Spot on and well stated!
Lone Wolf
12-15-2014, 07:45
Another where's the line question. So where as fellow humans, fellow hikers , where is our responsibility to save others from their bad choices. Situation! Someone comes into a shelter late, maybe GSMNP, and demands shelter space because he did not bring shelter or rain gear. Maybe in serious trouble or not. has a permit or not. Temp is dropping or not. It's April 1, not July 1. What's my responsibility for saving his stupid self?
demands shelter space? h*** no! poor planning on their part don't constitute an emergency on my part. i wouldn't be in a shelter anyway
This happened to me at Icewater Springs shelter on a Friday night in late April. It was a cold rainy night with wind, hail, thunder, and lightning. Rain started around 3 pm and had not let up when after dark four 20 somethings came walking in. Two males and two females. They had rain gear and wine, no tent, no permits. Only the males carried day packs. The one claimed he was a former thru hiker and didn't think there would be any thru hikers at the shelter this time of year. They came from Knoxville so they knew what the weather conditions were. The 12 person shelter already had 14 people. We squeezed the two females onto the bunks and the males slept in the dirt. They were still sleeping in the dirt when I left in the morning.
It also depends on whether the person giving up his space has a serviceable shelter.
A person who is in the mountains without their own form of shelter is an idiot. Unless they are there because they survived a plane crash. However, it does happen - some of it I blame on inexperience and some of it the overemphasis on dropping pack weight.
with that being said, I loaned out my tent to a guy who came struggling in to the Tray Mountain shelter at dark on one chilly, rainy late spring evening. The shelter was full due to the rain, even though it was after the thru hiker season, and this guy was clearly in no condition to get to the next shelter. I don't mind being judge (the guy was an idiot for not having shelter - his plan was to hike from shelter to shelter) but I wasn't going to be the executioner.
I did talk to him the next morning. We discussed as to why his plan was not a good idea (shelters get full, what would happen in the event of an accident, etc.)
I sometimes wonder how many people the shelter system has indirectly harmed by giving the false illusion that carrying a shelter may be optional. Although going without a shelter defies common sense, some hikers will always do so as long as shelters exist. One way that I avoid the "give up your shelter spot because I have no tent" situations is to not use shelters to begin with.
in the shelter example, there is a fine line between "saving a life" and enabling bad behavior. I suspect most of us would go out of our way to help. On the other hand if it's not life or death, there's nothing like a long night of discomfort to help teach a lesson that could save a life later on.
BaxterBear the earth needs more people like you.
Traveler
12-15-2014, 09:17
I sometimes wonder how many people the shelter system has indirectly harmed by giving the false illusion that carrying a shelter may be optional. Although going without a shelter defies common sense, some hikers will always do so as long as shelters exist. One way that I avoid the "give up your shelter spot because I have no tent" situations is to not use shelters to begin with.
Possibly a similar ratio to those the shelters have "saved" or made possible to hole up.
I don't agree.
I have 100% live rescues.
There are horrible people in this world.
No one has an obligation, by law, thankfully.
I agree with Malto.
I also think too much "helpfulness" deprives people of their "big adventure".
It might even deprive them of an essential "grow up" experience.
illabelle
12-15-2014, 11:31
I sometimes wonder how many people the shelter system has indirectly harmed by giving the false illusion that carrying a shelter may be optional.
When we made shelter reservations by phone in 2012 for a GSMNP hike, there was no space available at the Birches Campsite. The ranger on the phone said, "Sorry the campsite is full, but at least now you don't have to carry a tent." I corrected him, and he acknowledged his error.
You never know what type of misinformation may have been given by the "authorities" or by "people with experience" to the person who shows up unprepared. Perhaps they were instructed badly. While that's not my problem, if I can help, I will. To the thru-hiker who showed up in April at Icewater Springs (post #10) - I'm glad he had to sleep in the dirt.
dangerdave
12-15-2014, 11:38
I'm skipping the whole shelter drama situation on my thru-hike---as much as possible.
As far as the law is concerned, Connie, obligation can kick in, depending on where you are, where you're from, your level of training, etc. Even where legal responsibility is questionable, judges could very well convict under moral obligation. Better to just do your best to help others while not putting yourself in danger. As a 28 year career firefighter, I'm obligated by law to help people on the job (that's what we do, after all). The stories I could tell you!
What I've learned: The stupid people need more help.
While it's much more personally satisfying to help someone who is responsible but unlucky, by far the most common rescuee (in any given situation) is either ignorant, misinformed, or just plain stupid. Regardless, I am what I am. I will be walking the AT, helping stupid people (and anyone else who needs me) along the way. If you are too jaded to be concerned, or just plain apathetic toward your fellow humans, then feel free to ignore the freezing day hiker. They probably deserved to die, anyway. ~
I rescued a man, who later made a death threat. He went on to murder someone.
If the law insists, I rescue someone I would stand in court, and say, I have no obligation to compromise my safety.
I started the entire EMT credentialled rescue program, by so much success in the Mountain Rescue program. I was there, at the start.
if the shelter was full i would give up my space and go tent since i do carry a tent on the entre trail i really do prefer to tent.
You could argue Cheryl Strayed was stupid, or, whatever.
That movie is so great, because it shows the "inner journey" that reveals her "growing up".
There are people, that even call that "enlightenment".
We are not "on the trail". We are not "in the wilderness" here.
We are only reading about it, here.
I wouldn't be in a shelter.
Tipi Walter
12-15-2014, 12:01
I believe that we have obligations to help others if we can do so without putting our lives in automatic danger by assisting.
I follow the old mountaineer's edict---Don't let their epic become your epic. In other words, don't let someone's epic struggle for survival cause yourself to have an epic struggle with survival. It's sounds cold hearted and it's why climbers sometimes hike past dying people and not offering help. Not to say this is relevant in any way to hiking the AT or getting caught in a cold rain by a rat-box shelter.
demands shelter space? h*** no! poor planning on their part don't constitute an emergency on my part. i wouldn't be in a shelter anyway
Same here, the shelters are invisible to me and the struggles that happen at shelters with cold or wet hikers don't exist as far as I'm concerned. I always camp a mile before or beyond a shelter and let the lemmings rush to the boxes and howl all night long. Could care less.
One time I was camped at a high 5,000 foot gap in the mountains of NC and it was October with a cold nasty rainstorm, the worst weather, really. Two backpackers split off from their main group (never separate!!) and decided to bail off the mountain several miles back to their car and go home early.
Well, they got lost going off Hangover Mt (apt name) and ended up bushwacking lost on the mountainside to no where good. Many hours later they pull into my camp in the gap and the same camp they left many hours before. It was a comical scene. One guy stood by my tent in his pvc raingear which was shredded by the brush and his pants looked like he was wearing banana peels off his waist. Everything was ripped up.
The first thing he said was "Sir, please tell us how to get to the closest road!" He and his buddy were shivering uncontrollably and wanted out in the worst way. It was too late in the day for their epic to become my epic so I told them to set up their tents and get out of their wet clothing and we'll shove off in the morning and I'll lead them out.
They got set up and were completely soaked and one guy's bag was soaked so I told them to double up in one tent and cuddle if need be to get thru the night. By morning we packed up and I took them off the mountain to their car.
http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2009/The-Longest-Trip-at-23-Days/i-VxPSVx4/0/L/TRIP%20102%20%20OCTOBER-NOV%202009%20179-L.jpg
Leading the boys off the mountain the morning after.
wornoutboots
12-15-2014, 12:16
I would give up my spot & tent as well, which I gladly prefer. But 1st I would give a strong lecture to the individuals to make sure they're aware of their mistake & how it can easily lead to death.
freightliner
12-15-2014, 12:24
This happens every year with the nobo thru hikers. You have these ultra lighters who think that a tarp/poncho is going to be good enough for shelter during a storm. They think they're extremely light weight down sleeping bag is going to keep them warm. Once that freezing cold storm hits they suddenly realize how stupid they are and they do come into the shelter crying oh boo who who I'm not going to make it through the night. Someone will give up their spot in the shelter and set up their tent because they just feel so sorry for the stupid idiot but I think it's BS. You've got to have the proper gear to handle any weather situation on the trail.
For any of those people who live up in New Hampshire and watches channel 9 news will know that fish and game now hands out bills for rescue. You have got to have in your pack the things to survive any situation you come upon in the mountains. I member this one time the guy was handed a $14,000 bill for a helicopter ride because he didn't have the proper footwear. I would love to know what he was wearing to get that bill. I was hiking the year of the bad Halloween snowstorm where the sobo got stranded in the Smokies in 2 feet of snow. There was a rumor on the trail that one of the people who got flown out of the park was handed a bill for rescue. All he had was trail runners and shorts no gators or pants and he wasn't equipped to handle the weather so they handed him a bill.
If anybody knows if this is true or if they are handing out bills now in the Smokies I would love to know it.
I was a rope leader, at 15 years old, started out by the same people that started Mountain Rescue.
I have over 50-years experience of 100% live rescues, helping and rescuing, hapless strangers in the mountains.
I stand by my remarks. I will add, there is nothing worse than a "take charge individual" that lacks actual life-saving experience. Not you, of course.
In the high mountains of the North Cascades, in the often wet Pacific Northwest, I let soneone have my warm sleeping bag for one night. The next night that person had to make other arrangements.
There were others, present.
That said, I think the people that did not help that woman on the AT, years ago, attacked by wolves or dogs, are "worthless" people. At least, a pants belt to keep her from bleeding out. I also think that famous instance, in New York city, years ago, that no one called the police, instead watched a murder on the sidewalk from their apartment windows are, perhaps, more "worthless".
HooKooDooKu
12-15-2014, 13:04
...I was hiking the year of the bad Halloween snowstorm where the sobo got stranded in the Smokies in 2 feet of snow. There was a rumor on the trail that one of the people who got flown out of the park was handed a bill for rescue. All he had was trail runners and shorts no gators or pants and he wasn't equipped to handle the weather so they handed him a bill.
If anybody knows if this is true or if they are handing out bills now in the Smokies I would love to know it.
No, they are not handing out bills in the Smokies.
http://www.nationalparkstraveler.com/2008/04/national-park-search-and-rescue-should-rescued-help-pay-bills
I seem to recall the rescuers were specifically asked about this by the media when a dangerous helicopter rescue was required to extract a trio of ill-prepared hikers back in January that set off up the AT from Fontana. The rescuers said that the GSMNP service currently does NOT attempt to bill people for rescues regardless of the situation.
BaxterBear
12-15-2014, 13:23
It will be a sad day if we ever let money decide to get in the way of helping hikers in danger. I strongly feel the attitude that "letting stupid people die in the woods" is unfortunate. Of course, if you feel helping someone would put you in life threatening danger do not do it - unless a it's a child. I would give up my life for a child if they were in the woods in danger.
As for the adults Rescue them, then discuss the cost of the rescue with them afterwards and bill them appropriately based on their income level. Rest assured that they will probably never venture into the woods again after their near death. To bill them an exorbitant amount that will punish them for years is of questionable ethics.
I fully agree that people go into the woods who are absolutely not prepared. It is frustrating. I have always found this to be fascinating, immensely fascinating. I suspect this has always happened, even going back thousands of years with tribes. Myself, when I first began my trekking into the woods I was very fearful and prepared extensively learning skills in my backyard as a teenager. It seems to be common sense to not go into the woods unprepared but an increasing number of Americans truly have no idea what the backwoods even are.
We just hear about these events more as the world is heavily connected now.
Kitty Genovese was the woman's name in New York City.
This is what happened:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bystander_effect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diffusion_of_responsibility
It will be a sad day if we ever let money decide to get in the way of helping hikers in danger. I strongly feel the attitude that "letting stupid people die in the woods" is unfortunate. Of course, if you feel helping someone would put you in life threatening danger do not do it - unless a it's a child. I would give up my life for a child if they were in the woods in danger.
I have exactly the same view of providing assistance but it is going to be different for different people. I would help a child even at risk of my own life but I don't have any dependents who rely on me for support. The decision is a heck of a lot more murky if someone with dependents at home does something that results in his death in order to save a stranger (even a child) and then impoverishes his own children. I won't judge the decisions of someone in that kind of impossible situation.
Sarcasm the elf
12-15-2014, 14:51
I absolutely will help a person who's safety is in danger, so long as I can do so without undue risk to myself. On the other hand I am much more reluctant to help someone who's comfort is in danger.
If the person in the OP's scenario showed up to he shelter with symptoms of hypothermia or with a soaking wet sleeping bag (or some other gear failure), i would assist them to the best of my ability. If they showed up miserable but healthy with a dry sleeping bag and dry pad, I would tell them that the space under the shelter is dry and safe.
imscotty
12-15-2014, 15:13
The only way I would be in a crowded shelter would be if it was required by the regulations of the park - so lets presume this is the GSMNP, I've begun my hike more than 50 miles from the GSMNP and the shelter is full.....
If someone showed up late, cold, wet and unprepared I would be silently singing hallelujah to myself. He could have my spot in a heartbeat. But that is just me being selfish.
To echo what others have said, if they are just uncomfortable - leave them be, discomfort is a great teacher. If it is life or death, I would do what I could and save the judgements for later.
Nothing against others on the AT or any other trail but I do not like the shelters especially when its cold or a bad storm is blowing in. My personal preference is to sleep most every evening in my own tent by myself unless it is really cold and then I don't mind someone in my tent to assist both of us in staying warmer. Maybe it's my gray hair but I will do most anything to avoid the shelters.
peakbagger
12-15-2014, 16:37
By the way, NH now has a "get out of stupid card" (available 1/1/15). Pay $25 and no matter how stupid you are, no charge for rescue. If on the other hand you are reckless, then they can bill you. Of course the person who decides when someone is stupid versus reckless is the head of the department that bills for rescues.
Spot on and well stated!
I agree. I thought about this for a bit before answering. Thank you for posing such a question. I am one that lets others live as they want as long as it doesn't affect me or mine.
I really think that though the cuss words would spring to my lips readily, the right answer that I hope I would do is get up, pack up quietly and say something at least regarding being prepared.
Walking down the trail until the anger dissipated, I would then unpack the hubba or copper spur that I have paid for, seam sealed, carried every mile, and move into. Laying there a few minutes before I fell asleep, I honestly think I would be grateful for what I have and the wisdom to prepare for the eventuality that I may not have room in a shelter.
(I still hope the mice get in the sonuvabitch's food bag though, so yeah I'm kinda hypocritical!)
Sheriff Cougar
12-15-2014, 21:42
Basic human decency requires us to be helpful to our fellow man and woman. We are expected to be helpful and compassionate to family and friends, but it shows true character to go out of your way for a stranger. That stranger has family and friends, and it is not our place to be judge, jury, and possibly - indirect executioner by denying access to the shelter. If one has a tent that person should vacate the shelter and allow the other person to gain shelter.
This shows wisdom and displays that you are prepared to take care of your own person.
While unfortunate the person at risk is making demands, often times in a stressful situation one can come off as brash and demanding when in fact they are terrified and scared. Everyone is unique and reacts to stress in different ways. This person might be terribly embarrassed internally and as a matter of egotistic pride choose to portray a demanding persona in an attempt to combat the fear they might be in, and to maintain some semblance of control of their life and situation. Experienced hikers like ourselves need to remember for someone who get entranced by a manufactured dream of the ideal Appalachian Trail thru-hike - that's it's all sunny blue skies and smelling the flowers, when they get in over their heads it's a terrifying realization once they grasp their reality.
Attempt a friendly conversation in the morning with the person to better help them be able to protect themselves. Once this is done or if the person refuses to listen just let it go, it is far better for the soul to let things go and to forgive.
Baxter Bear...are you a psychologist? :)
gpburdelljr
12-16-2014, 01:13
To echo what others have said, if they are just uncomfortable - leave them be, discomfort is a great teacher. If it is life or death, I would do what I could and save the judgements for later.
+1.........
rocketsocks
12-16-2014, 06:55
Another where's the line question. So where as fellow humans, fellow hikers , where is our responsibility to save others from their bad choices. Situation! Someone comes into a shelter late, maybe GSMNP, and demands shelter space because he did not bring shelter or rain gear. Maybe in serious trouble or not. has a permit or not. Temp is dropping or not. It's April 1, not July 1. What's my responsibility for saving his stupid self?
With regard to the broad description given here I'll just say.
...my responsibility meter is directly proportional to ones demanding attitude and inflection.
rocketsocks
12-16-2014, 06:57
...otherwise, I think all would help any hiker in real trouble. That's the code of the trail.
Five Tango
12-16-2014, 07:44
In a situation like this I think a person's moral/societal obligation is limited to,"I have a tent you can borrow for the night since you were too irresponsible to bring one."
HooKooDooKu
12-16-2014, 10:55
In a situation like this I think a person's moral/societal obligation is limited to,"I have a tent you can borrow for the night since you were too irresponsible to bring one."
If they are too irresponsible to bring a tent, they are too irresponsible for me to trust them borrowing my tent.
But then again, I have a general rule about NOT loaning out gear... even to friends... if I'm going to be upset should it get damaged. It's not worth the risk of hard feelings that can develop between friends.
But then again, I have a general rule about NOT loaning out gear... even to friends... if I'm going to be upset should it get damaged. It's not worth the risk of hard feelings that can develop between friends.
I was always the "nice guy" who loaned out gear.
Notice I said "WAS".
I did not have any damaged gear, but I found I always to have to remind people to return the the gear and in a few cases I had to go out of my way to pick it up.
It may sound awful, but now I just say "REI has reasonably priced rentals".
One person replied: "But that's in Denver only".
Apparently my time is less valuable then theirs. :) So, yeah, I found out the hard way not to lend out gear.
No one finishes the AT without help, no one. However we must do a better job communicating that all hikers who embark on the AT adventure are EXPECTED to be fully self sufficient. Our love and support will make up the difference.
Five Tango
12-16-2014, 15:42
If they are too irresponsible to bring a tent, they are too irresponsible for me to trust them borrowing my tent.
But then again, I have a general rule about NOT loaning out gear... even to friends... if I'm going to be upset should it get damaged. It's not worth the risk of hard feelings that can develop between friends.
You raise a good point and I totally subscribe to the "neither a lender nor borrower be"-just ask my brother or my next door neighbor.However,I would loan someone anything I have for a short amount of time if they were in a "situation" out in the middle of nowhere and I was the only help around.I would like to think someone would help me if I had an emergency despite my best preparations which,incidentally,include packing clothes and shelter.
HooKooDooKu
12-16-2014, 15:52
I was always the "nice guy" who loaned out gear.
Notice I said "WAS".
I did not have any damaged gear, but I found I always to have to remind people to return the the gear and in a few cases I had to go out of my way to pick it up.
It may sound awful, but now I just say "REI has reasonably priced rentals".
One person replied: "But that's in Denver only".
Apparently my time is less valuable then theirs. :) So, yeah, I found out the hard way not to lend out gear.
Damaged, difficult to get back, what ever the reason... I've got lots of gear that I've never gotten rid of as I upgraded. I gladly loan out the older equipment that I don't expect to ever use (for myself) again. That way, if it is damaged, lost, not returned, or difficult to retrieve... I just don't bother and don't worry about it. If I get it back, great, I can now loan it to someone else in the future. If for any reason I don't get it back, I consider it a gift and don't let it affect a relationship.
BTW... I'm sort of the same way with money. I never loan anyone money. There's been several times where someone has asked to borrow $ or $$ and I've simply given it to them. If they want to pay me back, fine. But I'm likely to not even remember I loaned/gave them money. That way, the only way I can lose a friend over money is a 'friend' that can't understand the wisdom of not loaning money.
Not try to be difficult: Maybe I misunderstood. So you do loan out gear..but only gear you don't care about? Again, not trying to be funny. Just slightly confused as your first post said you did not loan out gear. It is probably just me!
:)
HooKooDooKu
12-16-2014, 16:22
You raise a good point and I totally subscribe to the "neither a lender nor borrower be"-just ask my brother or my next door neighbor.However,I would loan someone anything I have for a short amount of time if they were in a "situation" out in the middle of nowhere and I was the only help around.I would like to think someone would help me if I had an emergency despite my best preparations which,incidentally,include packing clothes and shelter.
If there is an emergency situation and I have something that I can part without putting myself in jeopardy, then I'm going to do so. That becomes more of a situation where you are "giving" to someone in need, not loaning.
So to more directly answer the OP's question...
I can't foresee a situation where someone shows up at a GSMNP shelter and the use of my tent is going to be the difference between life and death.
If someone shows up to a full GSMNP shelter at risk of exposure... they don't need my tent... they need (and will receive) my help. I'm going to sit them down in front of the fireplace... build a fire if there isn't already one, make sure to try to get some food and fluids (as appropriate) into them, and provide them with any dry clothing that I can (that doesn't leave me at risk).
If someone shows up to a full GSMNP shelter, and I have a tent that I'm not using... I'm not going to let them borrow my tent for their comfort. The can lay on the dirt in front of the sleeping area where they will have just about as much protection from the elements as me.
Thinspace
12-16-2014, 16:47
This whole thread reminds me of a famous incident in the late 1970's where a couple of "experienced" ice climbers did a climb in Huntington ravine on Mt. Washington in conditions that no one should have been climbing in. They completed the climb and then proceeded to get lost in the alpine garden above treeline in a severe blizzard/whiteout. If I reall neither one had a compass or sleeping bag or any survival provisions. I was up the the Harvard cabin that day no one was venturing out and thought it lunacy for anyone to do so. Long story short when they didn't return a search party was dispatched and one of the rescuers died in an avalanche while searching for them. I read an article if Outside Magazine thet tried to portray them experienced and knowledgable who just got unlucky. I say they were just two fools who cost a man his life.
HooKooDooKu
12-16-2014, 16:47
So you do loan out gear..but only gear you don't care about?
Exactly.
For me, it's usually not worth the hassle to sell used gear. So rather than making a few bucks off an old piece of equipment I keep it and allow others to borrow it.
Case in point:
Invited a friend that had never been back-packing to join me on a short trip. I allowed him to borrow my Therm-a-rest sleeping pad I've replaced with a NeoAir.
This whole thread reminds me of a famous incident in the late 1970's where a couple of "experienced" ice climbers did a climb in Huntington ravine on Mt. Washington in conditions that no one should have been climbing in. They completed the climb and then proceeded to get lost in the alpine garden above treeline in a severe blizzard/whiteout. If I reall neither one had a compass or sleeping bag or any survival provisions. I was up the the Harvard cabin that day no one was venturing out and thought it lunacy for anyone to do so. Long story short when they didn't return a search party was dispatched and one of the rescuers died in an avalanche while searching for them. I read an article if Outside Magazine thet tried to portray them experienced and knowledgable who just got unlucky. I say they were just two fools who cost a man his life.
That's f&%#ed up.