View Full Version : are we part of the problem....
reading all the posts about unsubstainable numbers of thru hikers, etc. on the AT I often wonder if we (the WB community as a whole) aren't part of the problem. My thinking goes like this....outside of anonymous WB posters or while hiking the AT itself, I have never, ever met anyone who has thru hiked, either before or after my hike. And I have been on this globe for awhile. I stumbled onto this place just prior to my thru hike. It seems like this place is a "search engine" for any conceivable question a priori and every prospective hiker can submit a list of gear for "approval" before setting out. We all laugh, slap him or her on the back and tell everyone to "enjoy the vacation" and "it's just walking", etc.
This is not a complaint or critique...I have enjoyed this site over the years. it's been a great source of information. but i often wonder if 'we" aren't part of the problem vis-a-vis overcrowding or overuse of the AT. Comments?
Haven't you been reading anything here. The problem isn't the wealth of information available on the trail. Nope. The only people to blame are these younger hikers. All they want to do is party. Listen to that terrible EDM music. Smoke too many marijuanas. Drink too many beers. Talk on their cell phones. Write on their facebooks. Hike too fast. Carry their "ultralight" gear. Stay in the shelters. Sleep in their tents. Hike in the winter when its too cold. Hike in the summer when its too hot. They're the ones to blame for all of this. GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
Another Kevin
12-17-2014, 21:45
The only people to blame are these younger hikers. All they want to do is party. Listen to that terrible EDM music. Smoke too many marijuanas. Drink too many beers. Talk on their cell phones. Write on their facebooks. Hike too fast. Carry their "ultralight" gear. Stay in the shelters. Sleep in their tents. Hike in the winter when its too cold. Hike in the summer when its too hot. They're the ones to blame for all of this. GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
As a certified old fart, I think I've done most of the above, except perhaps walk on your lawn. :)
It's just in our old age, we get less patient with it. ;)
yerbyray
12-17-2014, 22:10
I think the internet and forums have made it much easier for those who do not have the experience in the woods to hike the AT. Anyone can sit here and read a few days worth of information and as long as they are in decent shape and have a strong will....they might just make it.
I thankfully learned to appreciate the outdoors from an early age and can fondly remember summiting my first "mountain" as a Tenderfoot in scouts in 1979.
Scouting and belonging to a family that taught good stewardship helped me and I know that I am an exception.
The AT has become a 2100 mile party spot.
Hah! It is not "kids". It is "the sixties" people, now in their 60's.
Other's, here, are nice people, helpful "to a fault".
We give helpful advice. We share our experience.
The "imbided" and the "dopers" however, advertise "the party".
Trails and natural resources are getting exploited for "entertainment" purposes, not protected. It is important to protect natural environment experience so others can experience what it means to be a natural human being, even if you do not care to have that experience. It is a limited resource. In fact, most people say, Oh, that is a wilderness. The fact is, it is nothing like an authentic wilderness.
We are part of nature, too. But how would you know that without first-hand experience of an authentic natural environment?
hikehunter
12-18-2014, 00:16
Being in the (over the hill) age group....we are the group that fund many action groups.....as we are solid in our lifes work and have a little extra income to put where we belive tha it will work toward what we like and love.
there are too many people that are mostly under the age of 35 that are of the mind set.." It is mine and I want what is mine and to hell with what is for anyone else..."
All of the above having been said............people need to be accountable for their own actions. Take some ownership of this great land where we live and teach and guide younger folks to the best outcome for nature and all; do not belittle and preach like an over bearing helicopter parent.
H ike Y our O wn H ike...... however remember the folks that follow in your foot steps may be watching....:-?:-?:-?:-?
JohnnySnook
12-18-2014, 03:09
I think so for sure. I'm in the middle of the age group but see the elitists that post here not encouraging the younger crowd to be part of protecting the trail.
What were the hikers in the 60's and 70's doing/ Free love, lots of drugs, a bit of smoking, and not spending so much on drinking! The drugs where so much better I'm sure many have forgotten them or just don't want to admit it now that they are so much better than the rest of those hiking the trail these days. Just saying….
Why do people want to have a beer or pop a bottle of champagne on the the top of a mountain at the end of their hike? Well I guess its what most people do when the graduate from any school, get a promotion, get married, or any other accomplishment they have seceded in. Its an ingrained part in human behavior.
Some say the woods should be only for the fit. Day hikers ruin the views. Some drink and smoke on the trail. Sorry that your such a rebel to society the rest of us interrupted your lonely hike.
If anything we should be promoting hiking. Whether it be day hiking or thru-hiking. The handicapped or elderly shouldn't be able to go see a place they meet their best hiking partner, wife, or husband 50 years ago are now banned? This attitude makes me sick.
As some here may know the age of private forest owners is increasing rapidly. Most are 60 to 90 years in age. Do they love their forests and national parks? Yes, if not they would of sold them off. When they die do their kids that live in cities will have no problem selling off these lands for development. Just google it!
I doubt many of these kids will be donating the land to national parks.
If anything the super hikers or should I say 10,000 post whiteblaze members should be taking these land owner out into the woods or state and national parks to see the sites. Even if you have to help carry them 200 yards off the road and out of a parking lot to a waterfall. It may influence them to donate some or all of their land. Maybe take their children so the elderly land owners can tell their kids what the land and forests mean to them and why they should preserve these wild places. These people should be celebrated!
I guess the wounded warriors or a blind guy thats an AT hero should of been banned from the At also?
Millions of acres of private lands are at stake. To be donated or bought by the national park service or private groups that want to develop the land. Most will be lost in the next 20 years with the attitudes here. Just Sad….
I just rented "Hard Way Home" in vimeo for $3.99. Its funny how a younger woman during a AT thru hiker prep meeting basically disses whiteBlaze.com in the first 3 minutes of the film and everyone laughs.
The younger crowd is the future of the trail and all trails in the world. Isolate them and the lands will be lost.
For the first time since being a member here I have a hard time with the self centered posters here. Just keep pushing the youth away and that is what the wild will become overly protected, overrun, and possible empty once the sierra club, peta, and other groups decided all this land should be void of people to protect the animals and trees. Hikers will be banned also. Even those that LNT!
Wasn't Baxter Park donated? What about all the land recently donated bordering Baxter?
I was there in the 60's and 70's.
The people who did drugs didn't go hiking. Most, did that behind the dumpster behind the school. At most, they went to the end of a dirt road. A few, went to a Hot Springs to smoke marijuana. The LSD crowd looked at raindrops on the window of their VW bus. Well, that was the "scene".
The "kids" who hiked, encouraged other kids to participate in our Outdoor Program. We had equipment. We had signup sheets. The trip leader was self-appointed. Do you know that hike? Yeah. The trip leader put what was required: own hiking boots, for example. Backpacks were available at the equipment "cage" for holding your Student Union card. The Student Union card was the only way, with Driver's license, to cash a check in our college town. That was it. The trip leader, with friends on the hike, helped inexperienced people.
No whining. No one with a political agenda, or, an axe to grind.
I felt that was the way to "spread the word" you know, by example. Not by preaching.
I think, people, today, are very bossy. I also feel people, today, are reactionary.
I think, people, today, would rather work out their rhetoric, than "get something going" in the community.
ericmack
12-18-2014, 07:21
The trail is for all. Hikers of all types- shapes- ages. Volunteer to be a maintainer...pick-up after other people if they are rude enough to ignore "leave no trace" (or bury that which cannot be picked-up)...smile at the crowds on the trail since you will eventually be alone...love the world God gave us. That is what this old Army & ex-hippie thinks about this. Love this website and learn every day off it. Without the good people on it- would be too intimidated to even start. Good for you for caring enough to post advice-encouragement- knowledge.
Just saying.
Eric (Junk Man)
garlic08
12-18-2014, 08:49
I don't think WB is a problem. I'd never even heard of this site until after I'd hiked the AT in 2008 (and that was the last of my triple crown hikes) and Mags told me about it on a day hike (or more likely, at a brew pub after a day hike). I never heard WB mentioned on any of my thru hikes. A straw poll of actual thru hikers would be interesting. Unless a lot has happened since 2008, I just don't think it's a big effect. Or maybe I'm just not hanging out with the cool kids.
A lot of people would rather hike than read or blog about it. As Mags wrote recently, we all should get out more.
I know forums have emboldened me in the past, largely with my bike touring ambitions back before I ever slept in the woods.
Nothing wrong with that. The internet was made for forums. Connecting people who are otherwise disconnected. I think it's great.
Luckily, if you don't like the current AT, there are so many more trails and routes to do! Forums are great for spreading information about those, too :)
rocketsocks
12-18-2014, 10:14
reading all the posts about unsubstainable numbers of thru hikers, etc. on the AT I often wonder if we (the WB community as a whole) aren't part of the problem. My thinking goes like this....outside of anonymous WB posters or while hiking the AT itself, I have never, ever met anyone who has thru hiked, either before or after my hike. And I have been on this globe for awhile. I stumbled onto this place just prior to my thru hike. It seems like this place is a "search engine" for any conceivable question a priori and every prospective hiker can submit a list of gear for "approval" before setting out. We all laugh, slap him or her on the back and tell everyone to "enjoy the vacation" and "it's just walking", etc.
This is not a complaint or critique...I have enjoyed this site over the years. it's been a great source of information. but i often wonder if 'we" aren't part of the problem vis-a-vis overcrowding or overuse of the AT. Comments?Understand the issue is not overcrowding at all times, just congested and overcrowded at certain times. Suggesting we hikers are part of the problem is an over simplification of the problem, we are.
Starchild
12-18-2014, 10:18
We are the problem - This is my largest criticism of LNT guidelines, as it is the only conclusion one can come to with LNT - We are the problem.
LNT separates us from nature, it only condemns our actions, it states nothing positive about us being there, it only implies all we can ever do is detract, perhaps on occasion break even, never help, never increase the value of the back-country experience for those who come next.
Some also take a false sense of pride and piety in following them with a religious type fervor - most of the time not understanding why they are following LNT except for 'it is written'. They turn guidelines into rules which many wish to see turn into enforced laws on managed lands. In this sense it is the opposite of education.
It is also used for people who wish to limit backcountry access to others as they prefer not to see others when they backpack, I've heard LNT as such justification.
So IMHO LNT is the problem, not that the guidelines should not be followed, but the guidelines should be arrived at individually from the motivation within the human heart. The motivation expressed in LNT is incorrect and totally opposite of what it should be, it does not engage the heart.
Wilderness ethics have to do with we are suppose to be in the wilderness, we are not a problem, as we are part of the wilderness and also part of human society. We have responsibility to both to ensure respect for nature and community (and earth). Each person's actions will directly impact the next person's experience, and that will be further passed along down the line (positive experience will lead the next person to do likewise, negative will do the same.)
Huh, I don't "get it" entirely: I carry a trashbag just for others trash: I pick up Mountain House packages abandoned at a pristine "stealth" campsite off the trail. I pick up "fire ring" debris, in a prepared campsite. I pickup trash after an event. I look at it this way: it is cast off manmade debris. It doesn't belong: I pick up every tiny celophane candy wrapper or plastic stir stick. Every candy wrapper. Every bottle. Every can. I do it.
Next, people there see "unvarnished" nature, even if not the "original" environment, at least, it has the trash picked up. It is much easier, for anyone, to begin to appreciate "the view" if there is no trash in "the view" from their home, from their car, or, from their walk.
I picked up one little county park, and, the dirt road. Nothing else happened.
I picked up Going-to-the-Sun Highway (two-lane) on the west side, until the road was too steep to stop.
Next, the community of the west side have provided giant dumpsters, every June, for the west side of Glacier National Park to bring trash. No trash at the roadside. No trash blown up against fences. No "hidden" trash in the woods, in a ravine, or on the prairie.
I thought LNT was about trash.
I also thought LNT is about not "making your mark" on the natural environment.
The people of North America did all they could to Leave No Trace. It is difficult to find a rock wall, or, stone circle. There are "middens" of shellfish debris, but well away, and covered by dirt and replanted. They burned fallen wood, or, diseased trees, for example, for their cooking fires. Hunt, but, Why take the "trophy"? Let it live on to reproduce.
These things imply a "peaceful coexistence" that is not "detente".
kayak karl
12-18-2014, 11:23
did we think this would last forever? the trail of the 60's is got. there will never be another Woodstock either. time changes things. the new movies were put out for $ , not love of the trail. we have more businesses counting on high numbers hiking; gear makers, hostels, shuttles, want-a-be-authors, you-tube, blogs, webcasts, etc.... What did we expect? talk about it here for change and your preaching to the choir, does no good. i don't have a solution, but i will never hike the trail in peak season ;)
Most people that look at White Blaze "read".
They never, or, almost never "post" a comment.
There are 738 people, online at White Blaze, this moment.
I do not know a forum not like that.
Many forums have website statistics: how many visitors this day, this month, this year. Last year, this time. Etc.
The photos and remarks, here, at this forum of having alcohol and drugs make it look like the AT is for party-goers. PNT/CDT not so. Want no law enforcement, then get on the AT. Find out the tolerant "trail towns". Join the party. Hiking gets us further away from the law. But you don't have to go far. Some locations have a parking lot, ir, a "trail town" right on the trail.
All that tells hikers this is not their trail.
It is aggressive. It is deliberate, all the while acting all "carefree" and "unconcerned". "Free".
atmilkman
12-18-2014, 11:43
i don't have a solution, but i will never hike the trail in peak season ;)
That's all I can think of to do. Back in the late 70's when I hiked the trail a lot I had a job where I had to hike in the off season. There were countless times where I was the only one for days on end. There were times when I was the only one down at Neel's (that's what we called Mountain Crossings) hanging out. Used to think it was so cool to be the only one at Blood Mountain. Off season is the cat's meow.
I'm also prone to blame websites and blogs and social media and everybody with their 2,573 Facebook "friends".
But realistically, the number of thru hikes have been doubling and tripling every decade or year for a very long time now, before books were written or movies made or before the internet. https://www.appalachiantrail.org/about-the-trail/2000-milers
The number of people participating in all "extreme" or long distance sports is up... be it marathons, ultra-marathons, century bike rides, etc, etc. I think that thru hiking may very well be part of this larger endurance exercise trend.
Don't know why people want to run or bike 100 miles or walk 2000. I think that it is just part of some people's personalities and might be genetic. Like a version of alcoholism or something. On the AT or other trails, those All or Nothing genetics play out with people binge walking or a walking bender. :)
kayak karl
12-18-2014, 12:40
The photos and remarks, here, at this forum of having alcohol and drugs make it look like the AT is for party-goers. PNT/CDT not so. Want no law enforcement, then get on the AT. Find out the tolerant "trail towns". Join the party. Hiking gets us further away from the law. But you don't have to go far. Some locations have a parking lot, ir, a "trail town" right on the trail.
All that tells hikers this is not their trail.
It is aggressive. It is deliberate, all the while acting all "carefree" and "unconcerned". "Free".
you seem to think the west coast ios so much better. how long do you think that will last. read the post of trail stops on the PCT, they have about had it too.
you seem to think the west coast ios so much better. how long do you think that will last. read the post of trail stops on the PCT, they have about had it too. I agree. Many PTC thru hikers dislike Northern CA trail towns. They whine that our food and resupplies are too expensive and we are not friendly enough. Ummmm... ok. Stuff costs more in CA. Get over it.
The feeling is probably mutual and trail towns are not particularly fond of thru hikers. Or maybe Love/Hate relationship might be more accurate.
I don't see why the "trail towns" couldn't have a send off party, for the hikers.
Meet hikers, see the gear hikers wear, hikers are all ages, all levels of "fitness". Follow hikers on "social media": sign up. Have a "special showing" of the two movies it could be an outdoor movie, like those at the national parks. Let people walk around on mainstreet: make it a "block party" free movie to a hiker, with a permit, if you have permits. Otherwise, seriously looking like you will be hiking gets in free. Have beer and wine at one section of the "block party". Block parties can be two or three blocks, seldom more. Like that.
Have a tv crew, for the "send off" at the trailhead parking lot. Be on the 6 o'clock news. [No open containers - think what that would do for the "image".]
Everyone liking a party, gets a party.
It could be a send off party, a celebration (half-way point) or 100-miles, 1,000 miles, whatever, hikers could wear a "gold sticker" or a "blue ribbon" or an "embroidered patch" so people there could know who they are. It could be fun.
Free ice cream, with a sticker.
It seems to me the "trail towns" could make their seasonal income with a "gear party" or a "half-way" party, whatever people like.
It makes sense to schedule a party, if you can, when "kids" are out of school: high school, college, university, middle school, elementary school.
Elementary school? It could be a "family fun" party.
There could be "costumes" as non-hikers see "hikers" for the "grown-ups". Have "stupid heavy" prizes. Have "stupid lightweight" prizes. Nudity or no nudity allowed.
The college towns could bring their wrestling team, in costume, to have a rope pulling contest with hikers, in costume: dressed they way they dress. If not the wrestling team at least college "kids" wearing their college, or university, team colors.
Private schools might want to get in on the fun.
The towns could have some fun with it: their idea of fun.
My college town had a "bed race" of all sorts of outlandish beds, mounted on wheels, people dressed up in long nightgowns and red "union suits" and "night caps" having teams of runners dressed up and wearing running shoes pushing to "win" the race.
I have no clue how that got started.
Then, hopefully, the trails would, predominently, have hikers "new" and "old". The party-goers could stay in town, or leave. There is always another party, for them.
kayak karl
12-18-2014, 13:13
Like a version of alcoholism or something. far stretch comparing hiking to drug/alcohol addictions. doubt it would end in jails, institutions, or death. ??
kayak karl, We are, already, having arrests and jail, for vagrancy, and, trespass we never had. Hunters might trespass: no tickets, no arrests. Now, people are angry. People want the Sheriff. People want the police.
Many are angry over the drug-focus of "trail town" East Glacier, MT.
I can't get people that have been "involved" to do "trail grooming" to keep trails clear of overhanging brush.
Most people do not want the CDT.
They are not "hicks" or "rural people" either. These people came here for the scenic beauty and the outdoors activities.
kayak karl, Endorphins? Or, OCD?
far stretch comparing hiking to drug/alcohol addictions. doubt it would end in jails, institutions, or death. ?? I actually think that hikers and addicts share a lot of the same traits. :) I'm the only person of my siblings or cousins with no alcohol or drug issues - but I often see that gene play out in other areas of my life. No time to type examples now. Might start a new thread later.
"are we part of the problem?"
Of course we are. We hike on the trail, we use the campsites and shelters, we stay in the hostels visit the local stores and restaurants in trail towns. Because we are a part of the trail community we are also part of the problem.
But the CAUSE of the problem, now that's different.
BaxterBear
12-18-2014, 14:50
I feel the problem is not them drinking and smoking the kids, but the way a lot of them were raised compared to people who then hiked in the 70's and 80's. These kids out there ruining the trail are from the "me me me" generation who were told their entire lives they are "winners", played sports as kids where both teams won every time, and generally were told by their parents over and over they are virtual gods who could do no wrong.
When they hit the real world they implode because they did not get a realistic representation of society. Some of these decide to 'screw it to the man' and hike on the AT.
I have had to fire so many young people ages 18 to about 28 for being just terrible employees. They expected the world handed to them with doing just the least possible to get by. They ask for raises very often - one asked for a 25% raise 3 days after I hired her.
From my experience the equivalent to the "KT Line" in geology is 32 years old. Those 32 years and older do not display the damage from the insane parenting style they were subjected to.
From my experience the equivalent to the "KT Line" in geology is 32 years old. Those 32 years and older do not display the damage from the insane parenting style they were subjected to.
This guy totally gets it! What we need is an arbitrary characteristic, based on subjective assumptions and anecdotal evidence, that lets us stereotype people and pass judgement. After all, it's worked in recent history. If it ain't broke...
Next, I think we should ban people from the trail who aren't even Americans. We need to keep these foreign hikers outside of our borders! Dang, BaxterBear already stole the idea, he's started a thread on the topic. This guy is crushing it today!!!
GET OFF MY LAWN!!!
Young people may be more likely to behave stupidly and that's always been the case, but young people don't have any monopoly on poor behavior. On my AT section hike this April, I met a couple of NOBO thru hikers who had started in February and were trying to finish before starting grad school in August. Obviously very responsible and level headed people with a bright future. On the JMT in 2013, I spoke to an older guy who insisted that since animals don't bury waste, the most he would do is find a partially buried rock, do his business and then replace the rock. Oh, he burned his TP as well even though it was a no fire area.
There has never been a generation who thought that the younger generation isn't doomed to be screwups all their lives. Being 41, I am mystified at some of the attitudes of the millennials but they will probably turn out OK in the end. I did my share of idiotic things when I was in my teens and early 20s. Eventually things turned out OK.
JumpMaster Blaster
12-18-2014, 16:43
I feel the problem is not them drinking and smoking the kids, but the way a lot of them were raised compared to people who then hiked in the 70's and 80's. These kids out there ruining the trail are from the "me me me" generation who were told their entire lives they are "winners", played sports as kids where both teams won every time, and generally were told by their parents over and over they are virtual gods who could do no wrong.
When they hit the real world they implode because they did not get a realistic representation of society. Some of these decide to 'screw it to the man' and hike on the AT.
I have had to fire so many young people ages 18 to about 28 for being just terrible employees. They expected the world handed to them with doing just the least possible to get by. They ask for raises very often - one asked for a 25% raise 3 days after I hired her.
From my experience the equivalent to the "KT Line" in geology is 32 years old. Those 32 years and older do not display the damage from the insane parenting style they were subjected to.
So true. Everything is "owed" to them; I see it almost weekly at work. To add, as one matures, they get less and less tolerant of the BS & bad behavior. All you have to do to find evidence is read the blogs.
Tipi Walter
12-18-2014, 16:44
This is not a complaint or critique...I have enjoyed this site over the years. it's been a great source of information. but i often wonder if 'we" aren't part of the problem vis-a-vis overcrowding or overuse of the AT. Comments?
When Americans overcrowd a place the head honchos come in and take pretty farmland and turn it into new Interstates and strip malls and condos. So when the AT gets overcrowded maybe we need to build more trails.
Here's a thought---let's tear up highways and tear down cities and thin out these numbers for more foot trails.
"Oh god no, Walt, growth is here to stay and we'll eat up everything. We're the chosen people with the City on the Hill." etc etc
ALLEGHENY
12-18-2014, 17:34
Build more trails (YES). Connect them into the system. No ending no beginning. Give folks choices. Some want to go to a mountain or sea others to a lake or desert.
kayak karl
12-18-2014, 17:35
kayak karl, Endorphins? Or, OCD?????? What's you problem?
I feel the problem is not them drinking and smoking the kids, but the way a lot of them were raised compared to people who then hiked in the 70's and 80's.
You mean the long haired, pot smoking, free love, peace out, war protesting hippies?
Yea, I work with kids, they're no worse than we were.
There has never been a generation who thought that the younger generation isn't doomed to be screwups all their lives. Being 41, I am mystified at some of the attitudes of the millennials but they will probably turn out OK in the end. I did my share of idiotic things when I was in my teens and early 20s. Eventually things turned out OK.
That's how I feel. It is normal for the older generation to think the next generation just isn't amounting to anything. I have to chuckle when my 40-something contemporaries mock the millennial. Folks..remember what the Boomers said about us?!?!?! :)
This little chestnut was written in 1907 as a satire: (http://quoteinvestigator.com/2010/05/01/misbehaving-children-in-ancient-times/)
“The children now love luxury. They have bad manners, contempt for authority; they show disrespect for elders and love chatter in place of exercise.”
The more things change....
rocketsocks
12-18-2014, 18:26
Nobody was more of a first class jack ass than I was comin' up, peace pot and micro dots...but we kept all the consumables on the down low. Plus it was a different time, if you got popped, the man would say, "well me and my friends are gonna enjoy this tonight, were off in about and hour...tis is your lucky day, beat it kid" now days to go directly to jail, don't pass katahdin, and pay 200 dollars.
dangerdave
12-18-2014, 18:50
Maybe the myth that you don't have any rules to adhere to on the AT attracts more of those who don't want to obey the rules. This myth is further glorified by blogs, journals, and posts where such behavior is elevated to heroic status.
How do we go about dispelling this myth? Perhaps an ad campaign by the ATC would start things heading in the right direction. Success could be judged by a decrease in the number of offending miscreants along the trail.
This sounds like trolling if not being mistakenly over dramatic at best. Very often your comments are derisive and communicated to elicit conflict and chaos.
"Many are angry over the drug-focus of "trail town" East Glacier, MT."
Really? Drugs focus and trail town association? Not that I live in East Glacier, and as someone possibly jaded because I'm accustomed to VERY REAL rather significant illicit street level type drug activity based on where I've resided, worked, volunteered, and invested in various parts of the U.S., so I may be getting it twisted, but I've been to East Glacier three times each time for several days NEVER witnessing ANY indication of a drug-focused trail town. Quite frankly, I think I would know IF it was there in any kind of abundance most of all IF it was strongly associated with the hiking community as you have portrayed it. I find this portrayal of the hiking community in East Glacier as being mistakenly over dramatic at best possibly trolling at its despicable worst. BY FAR, the most drug activity I witnessed in East Glacier was at the NP Lodge's bar among the trendy NP tourists or outside on the streets of East Glacier among tobacco "users" or at a nearby grocery store pharmacy line while the "users" awaited their govt and medical community approved pharmaceutical drugs. Your comment is reminiscent of the heavy handed steps taken as result of overly hyped over dramatized "issues" resulting from some rural towns controlling school authorities feeling threatened by and complaining about school gang activity because four non traditional non conforming non stereotypical highschoolers "ganged together" in the hallway or "amassed" out in the student's parking lot after school, one with a blue bandana in her pocket, and one of the automobile owners dropped the suspension on his car. Am I simply getting it wrong or could you be dramatizing just a wee bit? - again?
"Most people do not want the CDT."
Sounds like another trolling or overly dramatic comment. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt though. Honestly, as unbiased as I can be, that has NOT been my perception at all! I've had nothing but the greatest cooperation from a very wide range of super friendly Montana folks as a hiker. NOT ONCE, on a 2010 CDT thru-hike and on two proceeding trips in the following 4 yrs to the East Glacier MT area, have I had anything but good experiences to communicate about the gracious extending of cooperation and decency from all the GREAT folks in Montana. It's my illusion they would say the same about me and the rest of the hiking community. NOT ONCE, did I hear a complaint from the the open minded friendly outdoorsy Montana natives in the East Glacier community about hikers and I tend to have a keen ear open for that sort of thing. Please don't speak about most people not wanting the CDT as if you're speaking for most.
Really? I am not a passerby.
I have six generations of family, including East Glacier, MT "Dodson house" and my grandfather was the first credentialled school teacher in the territory.
My family was here before Montana was a state.
I am well aware of the man who does the "transport".
I am well aware of the restaurant and the lodgings.
I, recently, accepted appointment as an officer in the organization that does trail maintenance I have done before. I want to do "trail grooming" and get a cold shoulder. I even get a cold shoulder from the Forest Service, that schedukes our events.
Drugs were not mentioned. The so-called "hikers" are offensive enough no explanation is required. The fact is, they hike little, or, don't hike at all. They are weak on detail, when they speak about where I hike, and, camp and do rescue work.
I have even participated in "warm showers" for bicyclists.
Your experiences of Montana must be because you are "authentically" a hiker.
You say you are unaware of drugs, there, then you would be unaware of drugs anywhere. Every time, the "hiking" season kicks in, drugs have to be brought from cities that are not at all nearby. I have been aware of a way-station in the route, a car used to transport drugs from the border to East Glacier, the man providing armed security for drug transport, and, each person involved because, in a rural place, there is no surepticious activity unnoticed.
You are entirely wrong about what we think.
JohnnySnook
12-19-2014, 01:16
Well does anyone know of a empty warehouse I could rent during the NOBO bubble? Maybe shortly after trail days? The rave I plan to throw will fund a thru hike or three. This party may fund triple crown hike!
Connie - I now understand why you live in Montana! Don't get me wrong. I'd trade places with you any day.
I guess no one really cares that once many of these older land owners die the land you look over from a mountaintop will mostly be developed.
Fortunately, the Reservation will prevent that near the east side of Glacier National Park, MT.
We have so many Foundations making efforts to protect The Rocky Mountain Front.
I don't know what is happening on the other side of the mountains. The Reservation there protects against "urbanization".
I am so glad I live here. I didn't live all of my lifetime in Montana.
JohnnySnook
12-19-2014, 01:36
Connie, I once meet a wonderful woman from Montana on a cruise. We had a great time. I still have her number. Maybe I'll give her a call and see if she is still single. Maybe a visit to your state and leave this hell hole I live in. That would be Miami, FL.
I visited Miami, FL in the late 1950's. My family put up in a nice "art deco" establishment on Miami Beach.
Those were the days.
I am single.
I wouldn't change that: I like doing what I want - when I want.
My backpack is "always" ready.
This winter I am so distressed because my gear was stolen. I am replacing it all, to be ready for the "good weather" but I am missing the winter.
Another Kevin
12-19-2014, 01:46
Some people resent change, and have long memories.
Seen along the Trail corridor:
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/8/10605220_2766ddbd6a.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/WmyC)
0501300045 (https://flic.kr/p/WmyC) by steelmf (https://www.flickr.com/people/66934423@N00/), on Flickr
Maybe, it's a generational thing in that some are prone to not wanting to recognize the wrong doing or drug problems among their age group the other "good" people like themselves, the drugs of their generation. They perceive wrong more readily externally as they point their fingers to a "different" crowd visually and culturally unlike themselves. For me, I take a broader view of what constitutes drugs and drug use. I see drug use happening on many levels. Drug use is rampant and pervasive in the U.S. It's occurring with groups who like to disassociate themselves from it fooling themselves and attempting to fool others into believing they aren't really drug users. On some levels, like when its stamped as a OK - not really really drug use - brushed under the carpet - minimalized as to the extent of it - by govt, cultural/societal norms, and the medical establishment, I still see it as drug use causing a multitude of drug use related problems.
Has anyone in East Glacier that you refer to - the so called "most" - the complainers - reviewed drunkenness, intoxication, inebriation, impaired judgement, damaged lives, impaired health, damaged communities, and National problems from cultural, societal, govt, and medically acceptable forms of drug use in that larger real life context of drug use? Likely not. Could be sobering if they did.
The last time I researched and reviewed it 480,000 Americans DIE each year from smoking tobacco - a legal highly addictive drug massively profitable for the govt controlled by the govt and the tobacco drug purveying industry that if nothing else killed you it alone eventually would - AND THEY ALL KNOW IT and they ALL have a storied history of trying to hide from their culpability. It's so profitable a separate Federal Law Enforcement Agency, the ATF, was commissioned to oversee the regulation of it thereby also ensuring and protecting continuing profitability. Seems like some some drug dealing is going on and if the right people make the right amount of money it's not thought of so much as drug use or drug dealing. It's largely swept under the carpet.
These tobacco related "user" death statistics represent far many deaths than ALL the upfront deaths directly attributable to illicit street drug "user's" deaths combined(marijuana, cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine, etc. combined).
How about alcohol deaths? According to CDC statistics about 88,000 Americans DIED last yrrealting to alcohol consumption.
How about medically approved as a OK pharmaceutical drug dealing and drug use sometimes leading to legal pharmaceutical drug abuse. The U.S. population, about 4 1/2 % of the world population, consumes 80% of the world's pain killers. Pain killers legally prescribed by doctors made by the pharmaceutical industry profitting both the pharmaceutical industry and govt. Literally, mind numbing.
How many lives are negatively affected in just one of these legal drug examples? How many lives have been directly negatively affected right in East Glacier, right where ever you live, in that small community, on the street, and possibly in the home you live, from these forms of drug use? Where might the problems primarily be? With whom? From whom?
Maybe, before we are so quick to pt to the minority on the street corner working their hustle or the outdoorsman taking a puff of weed we should look more closely at our own group's legal drug hustle and the problems and deaths associated with it. It might be a sobering wake up call.
Huh? I lived in San Francisco, CA 18+ years.
Bu!!$h!t
Alligator
12-19-2014, 02:23
Folks, take a look again at the opening post. This is an AT thread.
My bad. Thanks for the reminder.
kayak karl
12-19-2014, 20:16
you mean they share these traits, Inability To Control Impulsive Behavior, Weak Commitment To Personal Goals & Values, Constant Stress & Anxiety, Recurring Themes Of Social Alienation, Mood Swings & Negative Self Worth :)
RainbowDash
12-20-2014, 12:28
I feel the problem is not them drinking and smoking the kids, but the way a lot of them were raised compared to people who then hiked in the 70's and 80's. These kids out there ruining the trail are from the "me me me" generation who were told their entire lives they are "winners", played sports as kids where both teams won every time, and generally were told by their parents over and over they are virtual gods who could do no wrong.
When they hit the real world they implode because they did not get a realistic representation of society. Some of these decide to 'screw it to the man' and hike on the AT.
I have had to fire so many young people ages 18 to about 28 for being just terrible employees. They expected the world handed to them with doing just the least possible to get by. They ask for raises very often - one asked for a 25% raise 3 days after I hired her.
From my experience the equivalent to the "KT Line" in geology is 32 years old. Those 32 years and older do not display the damage from the insane parenting style they were subjected to.
I nor anyone I know from my generation was raised that way. Most people I know were told "You are not good enough and could do better". When I was little I knew those medals that they give people who fail were bull****. My mom told me from the get go that Santa wasnt real and adults lie to your face all the time. We were poor and I had to take care of myself as a kid. I learned how to cook and self administer first aid by the time I was eight. I live way below my means in a camper so I can pay off my student loans and finish college. I'm going to be going to school for environmental engineering so I can make something of myself. This degree provides me with an opportunity to potentially do field research and collect data in the "woods". The data collected would help protect and rehabilitate the environment!
The people who drink and party are the exception not the rule yeat they get more media attention. Everyone I know doesn't drink, do drugs or party. They are all too busy with their STEM majors to do any of that. We didn't cause the housing crash and the recession yet we have to deal with the consequences of our elders actions. I wont own a regular house, I'm not getting married, I'm never having children so if that makes me selfish then frankly I dont care. I am still working to do my part to make the world a btter place like most people in my generation. You shouldn't lump us all into one sterotype because you probably didn't like it when your elders did that to you!
Oh and no one else I know is dumb enough to take pictures of themselves/food/clothes ever five bloody seconds. Although, that probably isnt the norm...
JohnnySnook
12-21-2014, 04:53
I visited Miami, FL in the late 1950's. My family put up in a nice "art deco" establishment on Miami Beach.
Those were the days.
I am single.
I wouldn't change that: I like doing what I want - when I want.
My backpack is "always" ready.
This winter I am so distressed because my gear was stolen. I am replacing it all, to be ready for the "good weather" but I am missing the winter.
Connie, I feel your pain. Never had any gear stolen but I've broken surfboards and had to wait to buy a new or or buy a new at great expense from a surf shop close buy instead of buying a custom one. A decent new surfboard is $400 to $600. If the waves where really big breaking 2 in a day could happen. Luckily not to me.
I hope you get some new gear soon.
I do live in Miami which has changed greatly since the 50's. Hopefully your family still owns that property cause its probably worth 20 million dollars now.
Its funny that my friends and co-workers wonder how it can be 40 degrees out and I still wear shorts. I rarely every wear pants. Guess its the swedish ands estonian blood. We're actually have a winter right this year. 50's and 60's at night and low 70's in the day time with bright blue skies!
I'm the same way. Nothing like just wanting to go do something and then going and doing it. After a good job I often to go mountain biking for 5 to 10 days. Not great for a career but great for the mind.