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dangerdave
12-18-2014, 21:24
Ok, let's discuss changing departure plans to mitigate the Bubble. For many, it might not be easy.

How many of you who are planning a NOBO in the Bubble (late March or early April departure) would be willing to change your plans to help protect the AT and the wilderness it passes through?

Carbo
12-18-2014, 21:40
With all the talk about the crowd in March/April, I'm thinking of a flip flop instead starting at the DWG here in NJ. It makes sense not only to avoid the bubble, but the DWG is only 90 minutes from my house.

Abatis1948
12-18-2014, 21:43
I have already made the decision to start in the first week of May, 2016. The route will be Harpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin; Harpers Ferry, W.Va., south to Springer Mountain. I would rather start early April at Springer because I love company and the Harpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin route will certainly put fewer folks on the trail.

Treehugger
12-18-2014, 21:47
Already wrestled with this beast for months now and came up with a flip as a best fit for me, the trail and the legacy of both as I see it. I hope more join the flippers in some fashion. It would be nice to see the bubble shrink to a manageable size for all concerned.

Starchild
12-18-2014, 22:15
Are you helping the AT by avoiding the bubble?

The bubble concentrates usage (much like shelters do), making it easier to repair high use areas.

Also the type of people who consider changing their hike to avoid the bubble for the reason to lessen impact are the type of people who could lower overall impact by hiking in the bubble as they can influence others by their actions.

Now if one wants to avoid the bubble because they don't want the crowds, yes go for it, but in terms of helpfulness to the cause you may be much more valuable in then out.

rocketsocks
12-18-2014, 22:26
Are you helping the AT by avoiding the bubble?

The bubble concentrates usage (much like shelters do), making it easier to repair high use areas.

Also the type of people who consider changing their hike to avoid the bubble for the reason to lessen impact are the type of people who could lower overall impact by hiking in the bubble as they can influence others by their actions.

Now if one wants to avoid the bubble because they don't want the crowds, yes go for it, but in terms of helpfulness to the cause you may be much more valuable in then out.
Hike in the bubble and talk about hiking out of the bubble? Sounds like Chinese boxing, the art of fighting without fighting.

Boots and Backpacks
12-18-2014, 22:51
I'm starting 12/30, that should help. It doesn't matter what you do, it's not going to help. You can blame part of it on the movie Wild.

mattjv89
12-18-2014, 23:00
Well I'm now pretty certain I'm going to start on the Benton Mackaye Trail at Springer and rejoin the AT at the beginning of the Smokies. Maybe it's not accurate to say I'm primarily motivated by a desire to "save" the AT, though I like the idea of diffusing the impact a little and I did become aware of this hike as an option through all the recent hooplah about overuse.

There's a few other factors contributing to the decision. I'm not thrilled about how big the AT crowds are likely to be at the beginning. While I'll be rejoining the bubble in the Smokies it'll be a little thinner anyway as everyone who bailed at Neel's Gap will be long gone. I'm becoming drawn to the quietness of the BMT both as a personal challenge and to learn about what I like for future hikes. I've felt lonely on a quiet section hike before but I think some of that was because I was expecting there to be more people, I'm curious to see what the experience is like if I go into it knowing I'm really going to get my introvert on. Also I recently came to realize that I don't much care if I pass every single white AT blaze and what that might mean to anyone else.

Just Bill
12-19-2014, 00:25
Do what works for you-
I applaud any hiker who realizes starting a hike April 1st at Springer isn't necessarily the best way to do it, just the most common.

That said- if the pack of fools is still the best trip for you- Maybe the pack of conservation is the better slogan. Get together and put a little peer pressure on your fellow hikers. Pick up your ****, and the stuff others leave. Put your feces in a hole. Don't burn your un burnable trash, keep the drinking in town, the dope discreetly in the woods, and be prepared to move on or use an alternative camp when one is full.

Challenge each other to haul out the most trash, spend the least number of nights in a shelter, educate the most hikers. Be an ambassador for the trail and a good citizen in the towns the trail passes through. Learn and follow the regulations of each park you visit, realize you are a guest.

Maybe you are the NOBO's who set an example, maybe you band together as a group, educate each other, respect the trail- and make the whole thing go away.:)

JohnnySnook
12-19-2014, 02:06
Good Points Just Bill but I do feel if your a hiker that respects the trail changing your plan to avoid the bubble isn't the right thing to do.
Danger - you are a firefighter/EMT. Your a respected person in society. If anything you could be one of the people hiking in the bubble that could influence the young people your traveling with by teaching the LNT and other trail ethics.
I think if anything will change the trail is those that respect it and try and teach others to respect it.

I personally will be starting the trail in the bubble because I plan to fish parts of the trail which will delay my timeline. Yes, I know many will attack my wanting to fish the trail but it is what I love! Walking over a stream filled with fish to reach a town will most likely haunt me after my hike.

Some hike the trail in 4 months and are hero's others and enjoy the trail in their own way for 6 months. Thats what I plan to do and if you're a day behind me the trail magic might be something to look forward to.

Alligator
12-19-2014, 02:35
http://www.sierrawild.gov/resources/group-size-limits

squeezebox
12-19-2014, 04:35
Looks like our little group of Flip-floppers unite is growing, Supposedly the ATC will be doing a flip-flop workshop May 2, at Harpers Ferry I suppose we'll head North the next day. Might turn into a small bubble that would split fairly quickly. So far about 6 people sound interested. So join us for a May 1 Harpers Ferry start. Check out the 2015 flip floppers unite, thread

Jeff
12-19-2014, 07:09
- if the pack of fools is still the best trip for you- Maybe the pack of conservation is the better slogan. Get together and put a little peer pressure on your fellow hikers. Pick up your ****, and the stuff others leave. Put your feces in a hole. Don't burn your un burnable trash, keep the drinking in town, the dope discreetly in the woods, and be prepared to move on or use an alternative camp when one is full.

Challenge each other to haul out the most trash, spend the least number of nights in a shelter, educate the most hikers. Be an ambassador for the trail and a good citizen in the towns the trail passes through. Learn and follow the regulations of each park you visit, realize you are a guest.

Maybe you are the NOBO's who set an example, maybe you band together as a group, educate each other, respect the trail- and make the whole thing go away.:)

What a great suggestion Bill !!!

Abatis1948
12-19-2014, 08:26
All that JB and Johnnysnock posted.
I would love to hike in the bubble and still may. The main reason I would plan to start at Harpers Ferry in May is because I retire May the 1st. I will lose a great deal of money if I retire before that time and my wife has the say so there. Leading by example has always been my deal and I now feel an internal struggle to walk with the masses. I will think about this over the next few months.

dangerdave
12-19-2014, 08:36
Yea, that's my dilemma. Abandon the bubble, or wade through it with an attitude (good attitude, that is). I have no problem dealing directly with the public, so confronting the ignorant is right up my alley. It would be great to have backup, though, in the Bubble. The Pack of Fools thread is pretty slim. It seems that most sensible people are making plans to avoid the crowds.

My original thoughts were spot on with Bill's comments above. What to do?

Sly
12-19-2014, 08:41
For years it seemed as though April 1 was the most used starting date. Then people started earlier and earlier to avoid the bubble and still have enough time to finish. The problem there, of course, was lots were doing it to the point the Kick Off is in early March and creates its own bubble.

If one started in May and was a strong hiker, they'd have no problem finishing.

A slower hiker could start in May, leap in the mid-Atlantic and finish after reaching Katahdin. There's two benefits to the latter, one doing northern New England before the snow flies and then having another month of easy hiking to unwind.

The last two scenarios also offer another benefit of working two more months to help insure you don't go broke before finishing.

cbg
12-19-2014, 09:25
I'm starting 12/30, that should help. It doesn't matter what you do, it's not going to help. You can blame part of it on the movie Wild.

This early in the game I am not sure that I would blame the movie Wild. If I were going to blame anything it would be the following:
1. Helicopter parents that finance their children forever
2. The amount of financial affluence of young adults in the United States
3. Hiking the AT as become the cool thing to do for young adults much like attending one of the many musical festivals

If young people were expected to get a job, move out of the house and fully support themselves after school we would not be having this discussion.

The Cleaner
12-19-2014, 09:26
Lots of good ideas here, but I still meet many hikers who've never heard of WB.:eek:

Coffee
12-19-2014, 09:51
This early in the game I am not sure that I would blame the movie Wild. If I were going to blame anything it would be the following:
1. Helicopter parents that finance their children forever
2. The amount of financial affluence of young adults in the United States
3. Hiking the AT as become the cool thing to do for young adults much like attending one of the many musical festivals

If young people were expected to get a job, move out of the house and fully support themselves after school we would not be having this discussion.

I guess it depends on one's social circle, but I don't know anyone who thinks that hiking is "cool" in general and the people I know who are more affluent than average tend to opt for much more expensive and sedentary vacations - with "backpacking in Europe" being perhaps the most adventurous. Going hiking for five months is still not a mainstream idea and is somewhat counter-cultural. I don't really ever talk about my hiking plans with people I don't know well because the general reaction is that I'm nuts, at that's even when talking about a hike like the JMT or Colorado Trail. I haven't really mentioned my PCT plans to anyone except close friends and family and I don't think that even they understand... But then I'm over 40, not a young person, so maybe hiking is in fact the trendy thing to do for the young...

Joe Rogowski
12-19-2014, 11:40
This early in the game I am not sure that I would blame the movie Wild. If I were going to blame anything it would be the following:
1. Helicopter parents that finance their children forever
2. The amount of financial affluence of young adults in the United States
3. Hiking the AT as become the cool thing to do for young adults much like attending one of the many musical festivals

If young people were expected to get a job, move out of the house and fully support themselves after school we would not be having this discussion.


I may not be the most in younger person and I won’t speak for anyone else but me personally I have been saving for two years and have enough money to live on my own right after the trail and already have plans for a job. And when I tell some of my friends about the trail they do think it’s awesome but they would never do it and if they say they would one of five would stick with it. In the end I think the 20 year olds hiking the trail are more put together and have a plan for after the trail then the ones who live on their own working at McDonalds or the mall while trying to find a job in their field of study. Everyone’s to blame for the trail degrading we can all do something to help whether its trail work teaching lent donating actually practicing lent and telling people who are doing things that go against that to get their **** together and be responsible. If you’re out there it’s all about respect. And to those who say hyoh about doing things that affect the trail and people around you they are using the saying wrong and they are just being lazy. In the end it is all about respect treat the trail like you would someone’s house that you just met. If everyone did this we wouldn’t be talking about it in the first place and there are always going to be people who refuse to do it and no matter what you say will change it might seem unfair but that’s part of hiking if you see trash pick it up even if it’s not yours and so on there is always something you can do without blaming a group of people or one person and the people who do are the people that are part of the problem.

Joe Rogowski
12-19-2014, 11:42
Lent was supposed to be leave no trace (lnt)

peakbagger
12-19-2014, 12:11
To get back to the OP, I will comment that as a section hiker, I scheduled my sections to avoid the bubble. In particular I and a friend started April 1st and headed south from the south gate of SNP one year. We went for four weeks to somewhere around Atkins before meeting the lead edge of the bubble. It was colder than we expected but a 20 degree bag was adequate along with some evening campfires. I had done the section from Southern PA to the north gate of SNP the fall before. Based on the conditions I observed that year starting in southern PA and heading south would be viable as the elevation is relatively low until you hit SNP. It will be cold and there is a ski area up on the ridge so it will be cold and windy. SNP has occasionally gotten significant spring snow so this is in no way a spring hike but the conditions wouldn't be a heck of a lot different than the Springer area.

One plus starting up north is that firewood is everywhere after the winter. The campsites and shelter were littered with wood and were not picked clean. I had fires to warm up but as much to clean up the site.

We ended up doing Erwin to Fontanna after the bubble in late April early May. We actually had snow on Roan one morning.

IMHO Except for tradition, the alternative options that ATC has published have a lot of good points and for those willing to do some flips, the lack of the bubble early in the hike is a major plus.

Lauriep
12-19-2014, 12:27
I love this discussion!

ATC is, in fact, hosting a Thru-Hiker Flip-Flop Kick Off in Harpers Ferry on Saturday, May 2. The goal is to promote and celebrate flip-flopping, provide information from those who've done it, and support the people who may choose to attempt it at this time.

Any flip-flop that involves a start other than the southern end of the Trail between March 1 and April 15 will help disperse use. The start that involves Harpers Ferry going north in many ways has a lot going for it. In addition to all the things that are on ATC's website at appalachiantrail.org/hiking/thru-section-hiking/when-where-to-start (http://appalachiantrail.org/hiking/thru-section-hiking/when-where-to-start), starting in Harpers Ferry at the end of April through mid-May means you won't have much competition for work-for-stay in the Whites, and won't have to worry about reservations or space at Baxter State Park. Flip-floppers who have walked at least 100 miles continuously on the A.T. through the wilderness are eligible to use The Birches Campsites at Baxter (for 100+mile northbound A.T. hikers or 100+ miles IAT sobos only) are exempt from needing a campsite reservation. Ones who arrive early in the thru-hiker season (as flip-floppers who leave HF late April or early May would) don't have to worry about competition for space.

While it's true that there are times that concentrating use can be helpful, there is a tipping point when greater numbers of people causes all sorts of detrimental consequences, like campsite expansion, full privies, noise levels and social impacts. There is just a different dynamic when there are large numbers of people. It's also better for hostel, towns and other businesses to have a longer season with a more even flow of hikers, than to have huge numbers of hikers in short bursts.

Laurie P.
ATC

Slo-go'en
12-19-2014, 12:31
Do what works for you-

Challenge each other to haul out the most trash, spend the least number of nights in a shelter, educate the most hikers. Be an ambassador for the trail and a good citizen in the towns the trail passes through. Learn and follow the regulations of each park you visit, realize you are a guest

Actually, spend the MOST nights in a shelter. Cram it full.

The problem isn't that the shelters are there, the problem is their not big enough to house everyone. That forces people to create more and more tenting spots, impacting a larger and larger area around the shelter or the vicinity. Tents have a huge impact on the soil under and around them and since there are a limited number of "good" tent sites, these spots get used over and over again compounding the impact. 20, 30 or 40 people all using tents takes up a lot of space. This is really what the issue of too many people all staring at the same time is all about.

But everything else Bill said is spot on.

full conditions
12-19-2014, 12:43
So here are some of the alternate itineraries suggested by the ATC on their website:
ALTERNATIVE THRU-HIKE ITINERARIESThese seven scenarios outline possible variations from the typical Georgia-to-Maine thru-hike. Sample itineraries are generally designed for a six and one-half month hike. This allows for the average thru-hike time of six months and two weeks for travel and a little extra time off between legs of the journey. Sample itineraries are designed to optimize terrain, weather, and crowd avoidance. Most also provide opportunities for companionship and camaraderie.HEAD-START: APRILDamascus, Va. north to Katahdin; Damascus south to Springer Mountain.Sample itinerary: Start in Damascus mid-April, hike north to climb Katahdin mid-September; resume hiking south third week of September, finish on Springer Mountain beginning of November.


[*=left]Start ahead of crowds of thru-hikers, but be assured of companionship from early hikers.
[*=left]Be prepared for snow across the Mt. Rogers highlands (a 26-mile high-elevation stretch that starts about 17 miles north of Damascus).
[*=left]Do not expect to keep up with the pace of thru-hikers who started in Georgia; allow yourself 3-6 weeks to get in optimal shape.
[*=left]Start out in terrain of moderate difficulty.
[*=left]Plenty of time to reach Katahdin before it closes.
[*=left]Enjoy fall colors in the deep South, but with little companionship (you'll be ahead of the southbound thru-hikers)

HEAD-START: MAYHarpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin; Harpers Ferry, W.Va., south to Springer Mountain.Sample itinerary: Start in Harpers Ferry late April or first half of May, reach Katahdin second half of August; return to Harpers Ferry after Labor Day; finish at Springer Mountain the second half of November.


[*=left]Start in easiest part of the Trail that very gradually gets more difficult.
[*=left]When you start do not expect to keep pace right away with thru-hikers who started in Georgia.
[*=left]Start in mild, pleasant weather.
[*=left]Start amidst spring wildflowers and walk north with spring.
[*=left]Hike through the mid-Atlantic before it gets hot, humid and water sources become scarce.
[*=left]If you start earlier than May, plan to reach Vermont after mud season ends (about June 1).
[*=left]Reach the White Mountains in July, before the peak crowds.
[*=left]Reach Maine in August, when black flies are gone (but expect crowds the last hundred miles of Maine).
[*=left]Plenty of time to reach Katahdin before it closes.
[*=left]Walk south with fall colors on the second half of your hike.
[*=left]Companionship with early northbounders the first half, then finish the Trail with early southbounders.
[*=left]Be prepared for hunting season in the South.
[*=left]Be prepared for cold weather and the possibility of snow starting at the end of October.

HEAD-START: JUNESouthern New England north to Katahdin; southern New England south to Springer Mountain.Case study: “Scatman” started on the NY/CT line mid-June and hiked northbound, climbing Katahdin mid-August. He returned to starting point in NY and headed south with the southbound thru-hikers, finishing the end of November.
His comments: “I believe that beginning in Connecticut in early June was beneficial. By hiking southbound for most of the trip, we also avoided the crowded shelters and the 'spring break' atmosphere of the early part of a northbound hike. It also allowed me to 'follow autumn' for much of the southbound portion of my hike. We did experience some cold weather at higher elevations and some snow in the Smokies … Doing New England northbound also afforded me the opportunity to approach Katahdin head-on, one of the most exciting sights on the A.T.”
FLIP-FLOPSpringer Mountain north to Harpers Ferry, W.Va.; Katahdin south to Harpers Ferry.Sample itinerary: Start at Springer Mountain second half of April and hike north, reaching Harpers Ferry, W.Va., middle of July; then flip to Katahdin. Hike south to Harpers Ferry and end first half of November.


[*=left]Start at Springer Mountain, but without the crowds.
[*=left]Minimal chance of snow or severe cold the entire hike.
[*=left]Avoid heat in most of mid-Atlantic.
[*=left]Avoid crowds of other thru-hikers.
[*=left]No worries about reaching Katahdin before it closes.
[*=left]Hike with late northbounders first half; hike with southbounders the second half and meet northbounders a second time.
[*=left]Hike south with fall colors.

SOUTHBOUND CIRCUIT, A.K.A. WRAPAROUNDSample itinerary: Start in Harpers Ferry first half of April and hike south, reaching Georgia the first half of July. Flip to Katahdin and hike south, finishing in Harpers Ferry the second half of October.Case study: “Lonesome Dove” started March 13 in Harpers Ferry. When he reached Shenandoah National Park a week later, he encountered an ice storm that made parts of the Trail impassable and he was forced to walk on Skyline Drive. After completing the southern half of the A.T. a few months later, he took off several weeks and started again southbound in Maine in late summer, finishing his hike in Harpers Ferry the first week of November. His summary of this approach: “A great hike south without bugs and heat of summer. I enjoyed it but it can be lonely.”


[*=left]To avoid snow and ice do not start before April.
[*=left]To take advantages of services in Shenandoah National Park do not start before April.
[*=left]Experience a great deal of solitude.
[*=left]Consider staying at Skyland Lodge in Shenandoah National Park, so you can use it as a mail drop and cut the food you have to carry through the Park in half while you're still getting in shape.
[*=left]Start in mostly gentle terrain and gradually work up to the more challenging terrain of the deep South.
[*=left]Enjoy rhododendron, mountain laurel, and azalea in bloom for several weeks in the south.
[*=left]Expect hot, humid weather in Georgia.
[*=left]No worries about reaching Katahdin in time.
[*=left]Walk south with southbounders and fall color.
[*=left]Because of the loneliness factor, this alternative may be best suited to couples and small groups.
[*=left]Harpers Ferry has direct train access.

LEAPFROGSpringer Mountain north to Harpers Ferry, W.Va., southern New England north to Katahdin, southern New England south to Harpers Ferry.Sample itinerary: Start at Springer second half of April and hike north, reaching Harpers Ferry middle of July; “leapfrog” to Great Barrington, Mass; hike north to Katahdin, finishing in September. Return to Great Barrington and hike south to Harpers Ferry.


[*=left]Start at Springer Mountain with other hikers, but without the crowds.
[*=left]Minimal chance of snow or severe cold the entire hike.
[*=left]Avoid the worst heat in most of the mid-Atlantic.
[*=left]Hike in New England before severe cold sets in.
[*=left]Walk north toward Katahdin with little or no time pressure.
[*=left]Hike through southern New England and mid-Atlantic in fall colors.
[*=left]Additional logistics required.

COOL BREEZEHike the Trail in three equidistant pieces, all southbound. Start with the middle third of Trail, followed by the northern third, ending with the southern third.Sample itinerary: Start in southern Connecticut late April, hike south, reaching Troutville, Virginia (Roanoke area) late June. Hike from Katahdin south, reaching southern Connecticut end of August/ early September. Hike from Troutville south, ending at Springer early November.
Case study: After completing the Trail twice, “Cool Breeze” designed his third hike to put him in each part of the Trail during optimal weather conditions. “I hit many places in their most clement and beautiful seasons (Pennsylvania in moist May, Maine and Whites in balmy July and August, Smokies in late October peak colors) and finished at Springer before snow fell in early November. It required 2 flips, Virginia to Katahdin, and Connecticut to Virginia, but it allowed me the best weather of any of my A.T. trips.”


[*=left]Hike in mid-Atlantic during spring, before it gets hot and water sources become scarce.
[*=left]Hike first two months in moderate or easy terrain.
[*=left]Hike in New England after bug season, in temperate weather before it gets cold.
[*=left]Expect few other long-distance hikers traveling in the same direction, especially on first leg.
[*=left]Additional logistics required.
[*=left]No worries about Katahdin closure.
[*=left]Avoid extremes of both heat and cold.

Just Bill
12-19-2014, 12:54
http://www.sierrawild.gov/resources/group-size-limits

I grew up dealing with the group size restrictions and dealt with them early on as part of our Scout troop. I think a similar model could work for NOBO bubble hikers. While we had a Troop size of 50-80 people, but a patrol structure of 8-10. We stayed a few miles away from each other and then regrouped at trail heads, after hike meals, etc. Such a simple voluntary structure could do quite a bit to lessen impact but still retain a social group. To a certain extent this happens naturally anyway with sub-groups of hikers re-uniting in towns/bars, hostels and group camps in the towns.


Lots of good ideas here, but I still meet many hikers who've never heard of WB.:eek:
This is a very valid point, and something to consider for any WB class of 2015 members. As I said, do the hike that makes sense for you. But also consider the possibility of self directed outreach, education, and more importantly- leading by example. Despite the ease we all get caught up in WB as the center of the hiking universe, its not. But it could be a fine way for a group of like minded and responsible folks to organize and assist- to take action in regard to your awareness.

It's also something to consider for all WB members- why is this site not a more powerful voice, and more importantly- why are people so dodgy and/or embarrassed about visiting this site. My experience has been that a decent amount of people visit, younger folks especially- but it's a dirty secret they like to keep hidden. We all agree that cyber hiking is vastly different than all of our trail experiences- why?

Cosmo
12-19-2014, 18:17
I'm heartened by people taking personal responsibility for spreading out the impact of large numbers of hikers in the spring by planning flip-flops or other alternate schedules. It's leadership in the best sense.

Hiking in the "off" (but still mostly warm) season has many rewards. Rarely will you need to worry about hitting a shelter and finding no space. People who provide off-trail services will not be burnt out and will welcome the expanded season. You will be a novelty, not just another of those d**n hikers. You may see more wildlife. You will have an opportunity for reflection and contemplation, a sense of the hugeness of nature undistracted by the sounds and activities of others.

Spread the word,

Cosmo

peakbagger
12-19-2014, 18:39
As I described above, hiking for a week at a time meeting almost no people and consistently having shelters to ourselves without snow on the ground is probably what most people envision when they think of the AT. I ran into a hiker once that had done the AT and PTC as sections hikes. He only hiked in September. I must admit compared to spring hiking September anywhere on the AT is some nice hiking (al long as you plan your water down south).

Furlough
12-20-2014, 10:36
Lots of good ideas here, but I still meet many hikers who've never heard of WB.:eek:

Plus one on this. I maintain a section of the AT in SNP. I see a lot of hikers, both thrus, section hikers and day hikers. If the folks I see are willing I always chat them up. I generally ask: 1) Are they on Trail Journals or another journal site (if they are doing an on-line update at all it seems that most are using facebook), 2) Are they on Whiteblaze (very rare that someone recognizes what that is), 3) Are they members of the ATC or PATC (if they know about the ATC it is because they have bought maps or guidebooks, occasionally someone will say they are member. Usually an old fart like me). They may recognize what PATC is only because of the rare trail signs that tell them they are in a section maintained by PATC. Pretty much all the hikers regardless of thru, section, day are thankful for the work the trail clubs do in maintaining the trails/shelters.

Furlough

MuddyWaters
12-20-2014, 11:11
Actually, spend the MOST nights in a shelter. Cram it full.

The problem isn't that the shelters are there, the problem is their not big enough to house everyone. That forces people to create more and more tenting spots, impacting a larger and larger area around the shelter or the vicinity. Tents have a huge impact on the soil under and around them and since there are a limited number of "good" tent sites, these spots get used over and over again compounding the impact. 20, 30 or 40 people all using tents takes up a lot of space. This is really what the issue of too many people all staring at the same time is all about.

But everything else Bill said is spot on.

There really isnt anything wrong with tenting around shelters. Its called concentrated impact, by sacrificing small areas you prevent greater overall damage.
But, the new thru hikers are clinging to shelters like a babe to mammas breast. Scared to tent away from them
Theres shelters where the ground is all slopes and very poor for tenting. Ive seen 20 tents pitched on horrible sloping ground just to be near the shelter, when 100 yds down the trail, or even before the shelter, there were nice flat spots, with water as well.

Part, is they havent learned to recognize where to find flat ground. Part is just wanting to be near a group of other people

I dont really have a problem with shelters, per se. If they all were located a minimum of 1/2 mile off the trail, most would still use them and the rest wouldnt have to see them.

Tipi Walter
12-20-2014, 11:34
There really isnt anything wrong with tenting around shelters. Its called concentrated impact, by sacrificing small areas you prevent greater overall damage.
But, the new thru hikers are clinging to shelters like a babe to mammas breast. Scared to tent away from them
Theres shelters where the ground is all slopes and very poor for tenting. Ive seen 20 tents pitched on horrible sloping ground just to be near the shelter, when 100 yds down the trail, or even before the shelter, there were nice flat spots, with water as well.

Part, is they havent learned to recognize where to find flat ground. Part is just wanting to be near a group of other people

I dont really have a problem with shelters, per se. If they all were located a minimum of 1/2 mile off the trail, most would still use them and the rest wouldnt have to see them.

Thanks for this post. It hits home in alot of ways. "Clinging to shelters like a babe to mamma's breast---scared to tent away from them" about says it all. It's pitiful and mind boggling all at the same time.

I've made a careful study of campsites distant from the rat-box shelters and have found hundreds, even thousands. Dispersed camping is what it's all about in my opinion. Here are some examples---

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2006/With-Amy-Willow-On-The/i-JBPtncw/0/M/57-1%20%20Staika%20tent%20near%20Walker%20Gap%20on%20 the%20AT%20%20d1-M.jpg
Here's a campsite south of Fontana and near Walker Gap but way before Cable Gap shelter. Ever used before? Not likely.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2006/With-Amy-Willow-On-The/i-nB3VtH6/0/M/57-28%20%20Willow%20preparing%20to%20leave%20Brown%20 Fork%20Gap-M.jpg
Here's a neato campsite in a gap very close to Brown Fork shelter and shared with 2006 thruhiker Amy Willow. There is even a water spring right down the hill.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-Grayson-Highlands/i-59XCbq6/0/M/TRI%20132%20042-M.jpg
This one is remarkable cuz it's about a mile south of Hurricane Mt shelter on a giant flat ridgetop north of the Mt Rogers area. Thing is, in 70 years of the AT this spot has never been used! I got water by the shelter and hoofed it up to here. As I was sitting in camp I saw several AT hikers madly rushing to the shelter for the all-important Rat Box Experience. Are You Experienced? Oh Heck No.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-Grayson-Highlands/i-jgZnT6S/0/M/TRI%20132%20007-M.jpg
If you go past Partnership shelter a mile or two south you reach this excellent spot which I called Little Beartooth Camp. Many hikers rushed by drooling over Partnership and the pizza phone.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-Grayson-Highlands/i-W3LnpCW/0/M/TRI%20132%20378-M.jpg
Here is one by a creek very close to Partnership shelter and maybe just a half mile south. I was the first person to camp here in probably 20,000 years. As I was in camp 12 boy scouts rushed by drooling to get their shelter fix. Not me.

dangerdave
12-20-2014, 11:52
Beautiful sites, Tipi! I'm heartened by this as well. That's me! I may choose to hike the Bubble to offer some guidance, but I'm sleeping somewhere away from the shelters, for sure.

Tipi Walter
12-20-2014, 12:41
Beautiful sites, Tipi! I'm heartened by this as well. That's me! I may choose to hike the Bubble to offer some guidance, but I'm sleeping somewhere away from the shelters, for sure.

Okay, here are some more dispersed sites on the AT---

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-wZ7r8TR/0/M/TRIP%20123%20337-M.jpg
Here's one near Comers Falls and right on the AT.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-Grayson-Highlands/i-JHNfngD/0/M/TRI%20132%20228-M.jpg
This campsite is located 7 miles south of Partnership shelter by a creek, and several miles north of Trimpi shelter.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-CZ6WFHR/0/M/TRIP%20123%20351-M.jpg
This one is south of Trimpi and on top of the mountain above Trimpi and right next to the AT. Great spot.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-FJWF79R/0/M/TRIP%20123%20314-M.jpg
This camp is south of Old Orchard shelter where the AT jcts with the Pine Mt trail. A favorite spot.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-WwTQzVf/0/M/TRIP%20123%20238-M.jpg
This great spot is in the Enchanted Forest and is a mile north of Wise shelter near Mt Rogers.

Tipi Walter
12-20-2014, 12:47
Time to kill and I'm on a roll so I might as well keep posting some AT camping pics---

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-7Tm2Km5/0/M/TRIP%20123%20166-M.jpg
This is on Wilburn Ridge next to "Ma Peak" (one of 4) in the crest zone of Mt Rogers and adjacent to the AT. Great spot.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-8XM9MZW/0/M/TRIP%20123%20107-M.jpg
This one is near Scales on Stone Mt and close to the AT.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-Grayson-Highlands/i-VtKmZWh/0/M/TRI%20132%20118-M.jpg
This one is right on the AT (see it to the right barely) and is in Grandmother Gap on Wilburn Ridge, a very windy spot. It's a mile north of Thomas Knob shelter.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2012/Tipi-Walter-Grayson-Highlands/i-jhv7PGz/0/M/TRI%20132%20081-M.jpg
Of course everyone knows about the "Gauntlet" campsites just north of Thomas Knob shelter. There are hundreds.

http://tipiwalter.smugmug.com/Backpacking2011/Tipi-Walter-In-Mt-Rogers/i-2TgFrZc/0/M/TRIP%20123%20267-M.jpg
Here's a campsite on Stone Mt and real close to the AT---see the trail and the white blaze.

FrozenMac
12-20-2014, 12:59
Hey dangerdave, I'm starting around April 1st. Sadly, I can't change my plans, because I have 6 months specifically off from work to do the hike. So, I guess I'll probably be one of the anti-social ones, or maybe a trail "mom," telling kids to pick up after themselves. We'll see.

Coffee
12-20-2014, 14:27
I always try to camp in dispersed spots when possible. If done properly, there should be less of an impact. The ground is usually softer and drains better than compacted spots. And there are fewer animal issues since they go for the popular spots first. And fewer people. I can still socialize at the shelters if I feel like it, load up on water and find something better to dry camp. Very few people seem willing to dry camp.

With the growing popularity of smartphone apps listing coordinates of campsites, fewer hikers will seek out undocumented spots

Tipi Walter
12-20-2014, 14:34
I always try to camp in dispersed spots when possible. If done properly, there should be less of an impact. The ground is usually softer and drains better than compacted spots. And there are fewer animal issues since they go for the popular spots first. And fewer people. I can still socialize at the shelters if I feel like it, load up on water and find something better to dry camp. Very few people seem willing to dry camp.

With the growing popularity of smartphone apps listing coordinates of campsites, fewer hikers will seek out undocumented spots

Many of my pics show dry camps. Here's my technique: Get to the next shelter and load up 3 or 4 liters of water. Saddle up and keep hiking with your new water load and start eyeballing potential campsites. I always find something in 1 or 2 miles beyond the shelter. The extra water weight is nothing.

dudeijuststarted
12-20-2014, 14:55
So glad to see this being discussed! A true testament to how good the hiking community really is. Its going to make a dramatic difference.

full conditions
12-20-2014, 15:55
Hey dangerdave, I'm starting around April 1st. Sadly, I can't change my plans, because I have 6 months specifically off from work to do the hike. So, I guess I'll probably be one of the anti-social ones, or maybe a trail "mom," telling kids to pick up after themselves. We'll see.
FM - you dont have to be part of the mob headed north from Springer (upward of 300/ week). Check out the ATC's website for alternate itineraries - these include itineraries for folks like you who have six months set aside starting in April. If you have your heart set on sharing campsites with 40 - 80 people a night then by all means do the usual Springer to Maine thing but if you'd prefer something more special less social, please consider one of these alternate itineraries.

dangerdave
12-20-2014, 20:02
And that's what it comes down to...

Be a passive part of the solution, or an active one. Everyone is completely free to hike their hike, and disbursing the Bubble is part of the solution, if that is best for you. But to give of one's self, to serve a higher purpose. I'm sure I would enjoy my hike more if I did a Flip, but would I be willing sacrifice part of my hike to serve the trail and it's preservation? I'm certainly no Superman, but it will take each of us doing all we can to make a difference.

I'm leaning towards my original plan to begin at Springer on April 1st, and step up my advocacy from conscientious hiker to compassionate educator. Maybe there is a way to gain some sponsorship or publicity before/after/during my hike.

ghostwalker
12-20-2014, 20:46
I have already made the decision to start in the first week of May, 2016. The route will be Harpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin; Harpers Ferry, W.Va., south to Springer Mountain. I would rather start early April at Springer because I love company and the Harpers Ferry, W.Va., north to Katahdin route will certainly put fewer folks on the trail.


Your post makes absolutely no sense. Please clarify.

Coffee
12-20-2014, 20:52
One thing I've noticed from reading start dates online both for the PCT and AT is that people seem to fixate on either the 1st or 15th of the month to start a thru hike. I'm not sure why that is. I suspect that those wanting at least marginally fewer people should pick a day other than the 1st or 15th.

kayak karl
12-20-2014, 22:02
The way i separated from groups (for different reasons) was to not camp at shelters or near it. i move on about 3-4 miles, camp and leave early. when at a town stop i would leave very early following day. you meet more people this way also.

Tprunty8
12-20-2014, 22:12
Love to see this discussion taking place. For all of the reasons mentioned, I am looking to flip flop HF-Katahdin, HF-Springer beginning early May. I'd also point out that this will have you begin with the relatively flatter middle of the AT, and get into trail shape before hitting the northern sections. Finally, the weather "should" be better throughout for this itinerary. The only unfortunate thing for me is that I can't retire for 4 years, so I'll just continue dreaming, planning, and hiking the occasional section.

JohnnySnook
12-21-2014, 05:06
The good thing about starting your hike in the bubble is that you can always say the shelter was full and camp in the woods.
I'm not sure on my start date. I was thinking maybe mid march. May b-day is the 23rd so I'd like to be on the trail before the 23rd.
Danger - Hopefully we cross paths and I can treat to to a fresh rainbow trout dinner. What I fear is the fishing licenses fees cutting into my budget.

If anyone can tell me what states would be worth fishing and those that I should skip and hike on to save time. I do know I want to fish in the northern states! Maybe skip some of the middle states?

Not much info on this forum about fishing except to not fish at all. Kind of sad. I mean many take many days off to go see cities or like NY and Washington DC.

Luckily I found a fishing guide in NC that is a LDH and I Hope he can provide some insight.

Lauriep
12-21-2014, 10:36
Awesome to see people thoughtfully considering new approaches, and thinking outside of the box, considering how their hike affects the big picture and what they can do differently to help the situation.

One thing that's useful to know: selecting a campsite for the minimum environmental impact is not always intuitive. Research shows that in most of the Eastern forests, it's best to avoid places where camping impacts are just beginning, which can recover fairly quickly if left alone, but will be compacted if there are something like just 10-20 overnight visits a year. The best thing on the heavily used A.T. is to use an established campsite.

Here is more guidance from Leave No Trace, Inc. although some of it doesn't quite resonate on the A.T., as many designated and established campsites are already close to trails and water--built and established before the science was understood.

The crux of it is this: "confine impact to places which already show use and avoid enlarging the area of disturbance."


lnt.org/learn/principle-2 (http://www.lnt.org/learn/principle-2)

Choosing a Campsite in High-Use Areas

Avoid camping close to water and trails and select a site which is not visible to others. Even in popular areas the sense of solitude can be enhanced by screening campsites and choosing an out-of-the-way site. Camping away from the water's edge also allows access routes for wild life. Be sure to obey regulations related to campsite selection. Allow enough time and energy at the end of the day to select an appropriate site. Fatigue, bad weather, and late departure times are not acceptable excuses for choosing poor or fragile camp sites.

Generally, it is best to camp on sites that are so highly impacted that further careful use will cause no noticeable impact. In popular areas, these sites are obvious because they have already lost their vegetation cover. Also, it is often possible to find a site which naturally lacks vegetation, such as exposed bedrock or sandy areas.

On high-impact sites, tents, traffic routes, and kitchen areas should be concentrated on already impacted areas. The objective is to confine impact to places which already show use and avoid enlarging the area of disturbance. When leaving camp, make sure that it is clean, attractive, and appealing to other campers who follow.

The very best thing for the Trail is to choose a campsite or shelter site that's already officially designated, and make sure that you're not expanding the overall camping area in that designated site. Choosing to hike in a time and place that is not already known to be crowded is part of this.

ATC is working on developing a voluntary registration system for northbound thru-hikers that will help people see what dates have the most people signed up to start and enable them to self-disperse across the calendar.

Coffee
12-21-2014, 12:32
On the AT corridor I wouldn't use a non established site if I think that others are likely to come across it. This means being quite a distance off trail in a non obvious location. And I try to leave it as I found it in terms of not being obvious that my tent was there. We definitely shouldn't create new sites within sight of the trail.

Tipi Walter
12-21-2014, 13:08
The very best thing for the Trail is to choose a campsite or shelter site that's already officially designated, and make sure that you're not expanding the overall camping area in that designated site. Choosing to hike in a time and place that is not already known to be crowded is part of this.

ATC is working on developing a voluntary registration system for northbound thru-hikers that will help people see what dates have the most people signed up to start and enable them to self-disperse across the calendar.

I find your post a sort of tacit approval and support for the AT rat-box shelter system. How so? By this:

"The very best thing for the Trail is to choose a campsite that's already officially designated..."

This is just wrong and if instituted would ruin the AT experience. We'll be back to the Smokies model: Camp Only Here! "Officially Designated" sounds scientific and researched and all else but so far Thank you Jesus there are no officially designated campsites on the AT yet except in areas where there's a heavy Tent Police presence i.e. GSMNP and Baxter.

The only damage new camping spots do over time is to produce a small area of compacted ground. This is nothing. Every Autumn these spots are covered by another round of fresh dead leaves and the world goes on.

There could be a million little compacted tent sites along the AT and it would not change or harm anything. I encourage backpackers to find new camps and use them and get away from the shelter madness. Camp where you want, folks. Camp by the trail. Camp a mile off the trail. Bushwack to new spots. Camp on the hill, camp in the valley. Camp everywhere.

rickb
12-21-2014, 13:38
Thank you Jesus there are no officially designated campsites on the AT yet except in areas where there's a heavy Tent Police presence i.e. GSMNP and Baxter.

Tipi, some words of advise. Keep talking beautiful photos of the mushrooms you find on your many long and amazing backpacking trips.

But please, don't eat them anymore, OK?

Alligator
12-21-2014, 13:41
You misquoted LaurieP Walter. It says "...campsite or shelter site...."
...

The very best thing for the Trail is to choose a campsite or shelter site that's already officially designated, and make sure that you're not expanding the overall camping area in that designated site. Choosing to hike in a time and place that is not already known to be crowded is part of this.

...

Now as far as impact, those small compacted sites can and do expand. There are sites up and down the AT that have had to be rehabilitated because they were overused. You are not providing good advice Tipi Walter. Admittedly, you tend to camp in places of low visitor use and your perspective on degradation from usage appears biased.

Sheriff Cougar
12-21-2014, 13:41
I find your post a sort of tacit approval and support for the AT rat-box shelter system. How so? By this:

"The very best thing for the Trail is to choose a campsite that's already officially designated..."

This is just wrong and if instituted would ruin the AT experience. We'll be back to the Smokies model: Camp Only Here! "Officially Designated" sounds scientific and researched and all else but so far Thank you Jesus there are no officially designated campsites on the AT yet except in areas where there's a heavy Tent Police presence i.e. GSMNP and Baxter.

The only damage new camping spots do over time is to produce a small area of compacted ground. This is nothing. Every Autumn these spots are covered by another round of fresh dead leaves and the world goes on.

There could be a million little compacted tent sites along the AT and it would not change or harm anything. I encourage backpackers to find new camps and use them and get away from the shelter madness. Camp where you want, folks. Camp by the trail. Camp a mile off the trail. Bushwack to new spots. Camp on the hill, camp in the valley. Camp everywhere.My thoughts exactly, Tipi. Stealth camping or camping in areas no one else uses should lessen the impact on the trail.

Tipi Walter
12-21-2014, 14:03
You misquoted LaurieP Walter. It says "...campsite or shelter site...."

Now as far as impact, those small compacted sites can and do expand. There are sites up and down the AT that have had to be rehabilitated because they were overused. You are not providing good advice Tipi Walter. Admittedly, you tend to camp in places of low visitor use and your perspective on degradation from usage appears biased.

If I added "shelter site" it would be even worse and would validate the madness to use these shelters. All my pics of the AT prove there are thousands of such sites off the AT south of Fontana which have never been used or rarely so. And how many trees are there along the trail? Millions? So how many hammock spots? Millions.

Most of the worse compacted mud pits are located next to the rat-box shelters, although a few gaps here and there have impacted spots like Cody Gap or the spot by a spring south of Fontana but they don't bother me. I gather a stuff sack worth of dead leaves and place them under my tent. And I have camped a hundred nights in heavy used spots thruout the Southeast and other than the big firepits I have no problem using them and none in my opinion need to be rehabilitated. A compacted spot is nothing, and I never said to build a fire ring or use a fire. The big rock ash dump which people call Fire Pits are unsightly, granted. But a compacted spot? Never.

Tipi Walter
12-21-2014, 14:04
My thoughts exactly, Tipi. Stealth camping or camping in areas no one else uses should lessen the impact on the trail.

Thank ye for the input. And there are millions of such spots.

Alligator
12-21-2014, 16:17
If I added "shelter site" it would be even worse and would validate the madness to use these shelters. All my pics of the AT prove there are thousands of such sites off the AT south of Fontana which have never been used or rarely so. And how many trees are there along the trail? Millions? So how many hammock spots? Millions.

Most of the worse compacted mud pits are located next to the rat-box shelters, although a few gaps here and there have impacted spots like Cody Gap or the spot by a spring south of Fontana but they don't bother me. I gather a stuff sack worth of dead leaves and place them under my tent. And I have camped a hundred nights in heavy used spots thruout the Southeast and other than the big firepits I have no problem using them and none in my opinion need to be rehabilitated. A compacted spot is nothing, and I never said to build a fire ring or use a fire. The big rock ash dump which people call Fire Pits are unsightly, granted. But a compacted spot? Never.Walter advocating that it's ok to create "a million little compacted tent sites" is certainly not following Leave No Trace, where there is the goal of minimizing impact. We will have to disagree on this issue, I would rather see the natural vegetation growing in those non-designated spots. Granted, with care, some hikers can pick spots that will not be impacted, but even hammock hikers end up walking around their chosen sites. Hikers tend to pick the best site for their shelter as well, so they don't necessarily disperse. For it to happen, hikers need to get well away from the trail and water sources. There are certainly places that are compacted and denuded, most any stream with a flat spot nearby has them. It doesn't have to happen and really, it's not ok when it does. It creates erosion problems and it takes away from the wild nature of trails.

rickb
12-21-2014, 16:25
Thank ye for the input. And there are millions of such spots.

But hikers invariably will pick the ones right next to trail.

Assuming your concern isn't Haunta Virus or the Bubonic Plague, then I have to guess it is in providing hikers a good aesthetic experience.

Well built and sited tenting areas may not be the ideal in that regard, but they most certainly make for a more beuatiful trail ahead-- especially for those who start hiking relatively early in the day.

MuddyWaters
12-21-2014, 18:25
Nothing wrong with concentrated impact camping model....for most.

Established campsites in view of trail should be rehabilitated

Concentrated impact sites and shelters should be at least 1/4 mile off the trail, and out of eye and earshot of the trail

People engaging in dispersed camping should meet a requirement to tent 200 ft off the trail, and 100 ft from water.

Fires should be banned.

soilman
12-21-2014, 23:12
....

The only damage new camping spots do over time is to produce a small area of compacted ground. This is nothing. Every Autumn these spots are covered by another round of fresh dead leaves and the world goes on.

There could be a million little compacted tent sites along the AT and it would not change or harm anything. I encourage backpackers to find new camps and use them and get away from the shelter madness. Camp where you want, folks. Camp by the trail. Camp a mile off the trail. Bushwack to new spots. Camp on the hill, camp in the valley. Camp everywhere.

Compaction is not some inert phenomenon. Depending on the degree it can have real consequences to hydrology, flora, and fauna. And depending on the degree, may take time to rehabilitate.

rocketsocks
12-21-2014, 23:27
There is also a freeze thaw that heaves the couple feet of top soil that takes place that helps to aerate a compacted soils. I have no idea the numbers, perhaps that will be part of the study that is taking place.

Cosmo
12-22-2014, 08:53
If I added "shelter site" it would be even worse and would validate the madness to use these shelters. All my pics of the AT prove there are thousands of such sites off the AT south of Fontana which have never been used or rarely so. And how many trees are there along the trail? Millions? So how many hammock spots? Millions.

Most of the worse compacted mud pits are located next to the rat-box shelters, although a few gaps here and there have impacted spots like Cody Gap or the spot by a spring south of Fontana but they don't bother me. I gather a stuff sack worth of dead leaves and place them under my tent. And I have camped a hundred nights in heavy used spots thruout the Southeast and other than the big firepits I have no problem using them and none in my opinion need to be rehabilitated. A compacted spot is nothing, and I never said to build a fire ring or use a fire. The big rock ash dump which people call Fire Pits are unsightly, granted. But a compacted spot? Never.

Alas, Tipi, very few of the overnight visitors to the AT have your high level of woodscraft and ability. From the photos you have linked to, it looks like you choose well, and undoubtedly there ARE thousands (millions is a big number) of suitable tent/hammock sites along our 2000 miles. However, in my experience, most hikers given the opportunity will camp in a group, close to the trail, next to water, and do a poor job of disposing of their waste. Once that happens a few times, you've got another muddy, trashed-out location. Then folks move along to the next one and the same cycle continues. People, especially in a highly fatigued and transitory situation, just don't seem to be interested in caring for a place they know they are likely to never visit again. The more cynical among us might say that this mimics our nation's past (and perhaps) current relationship to the environment in general--but I digress.

Yes, definitely an opportunity for education. But especially in areas with a high concentration of inexperienced hikers (and there are many--not just between Springer and Fontana), we really need sites that can first off sustain the physical impact of feet, tents and fires in all weathers (and there are definitely existing designated sites that can't), then are sited so as not to create a tent city on the Trail, damage water supplies, or be prone to physical expansion by those looking for yet another "perfect" spot.

I wish there were more hikers of your experience, Tipi--demonstrating ways to be compatible with the woods, rather than altering the environment to suit their needs. They may be out there, but they appear to be a pretty small percentage of AT hikers.

Cosmo

tsommers
12-24-2014, 20:47
Tipi Walter nailed it in few posts on page 2, there are so many amazing campsites that i stayed at only 2 shelters, which i had alone, from Springer to VT where i pulled out due to Lymes............ I don't care what anyone says, i started in march 1st last year on springer and never once had an issue with such "bubble". Did i know lots of people within 2 days, in front of and behind? Yes, i did, but never once camped with them and really on stopped to say hi as i passed them or they passed me during the day. More so about the topic of "the bubble", in my case it was gone by Hampton,TN it seemed. So i might be rambling here but this is my take. The trail is social,lots of people around. With a little effort you can make it so you camp alone every night you choose.

Jim Adams
12-24-2014, 23:35
LOLOLOL.....sounds like the flip-flop bubble may be as big as the normal nobo bubble!. Fact is, there are a lot of hikers that want to thru hike the AT. Don't blame such lame excuses as the movie WILD. I saw nothing in the movie that would make someone want to hike the AT. There are simply more people who want to spend a chunk of time in the outdoors and an AT thru hike fits into that idea quite easily w/o much commitment.

Jake27
12-25-2014, 12:28
I'll save the AT by hiking the PCT.

Tipi Walter
12-25-2014, 13:20
I'll save the AT by hiking the PCT.

I already saved the AT a hundred times over by backpacking in Cohutta and Big Frog and Citico and Bald River and Slickrock Creek and Lewis Fork and Harper Creek and Upper Creek and Linville Gorge and Lost Cove Creek and the Pinoti.:rolleyes:

dangerdave
12-26-2014, 10:26
It's good to see the number of people here willing to do their part, by default or otherwise.

I'm still up in the air on my choice. A flip is certainly becoming more attractive in the face of the ongoing debate.

Slo-go'en
12-26-2014, 12:11
I'll head for Springer mid April and then decide if I want to be adventurous and do the BMT or stick to the AT depending on conditions at the time. Since I've done the AT through GA/NC nearly half a dozen times now, I suppose I should try the alternative route for a change of scenery.

Furlough
12-26-2014, 12:36
I'll save the AT by hiking the PCT.

That is an alternative idea. Here is another (not directed at you Jake27 given your location). If folks want to help preserve the AT and they live near the AT.... Join a trail maintaining club, step away from the keyboard, grab a pulaski, mccleod, saw, pruning shears, swing blade or shovel, pack along some trash bags and get out and do your part. A little volunteerism can go a long way. And a day of maintaining beats the h3ll out of a day of cyber complaining any day.

Thank you for all you do to all the maintainers out there.

Furlough

P.S. Yes I am a trail maintainer for PATC - The Flying McLeods in South SNP and work with the ACME Treadway Company when I can.

Lyle
12-26-2014, 12:43
Just start at the southern park border and hike to Springer. The extra few miles means nothing in the larger picture, hike the approach trail to Amicalola Falls SP to make up the distance if you must. You will still hike Maine to Georga, and avoid all the hassle and not contribute to the devastation (manufactured to my mind) to Katadin.

Frank_the_cat
12-27-2014, 21:20
The idea of crowds is actually what caused me to change from NOBO to SOBO. Not that I want to be alone or anti social, just the idea of packed trails and full shelters stressed me out.
I figure I'll get to see fall instead of spring.

I wish flip flopping were an option at this point, but now that my boss is pregnant and I have to cover for her maternity leave, I'm stuck.

Go2guy
01-02-2015, 13:01
Doing the same, starting at Mohican Outdoor ctr, Blairstown, NJ Apr 7th. Also doing a "warm up" hike from Bear Mtn to Mohican Mar 23, should take 8 days. Your welcome to come to see how this works.

Old_Man
01-02-2015, 18:19
I'm hiking south from Harpers Ferry to Springer starting around June 1st. I might do a flip if my funds/spirit holds. This was always my plan because of the convenience of Amtrak stopping in my town and HF. Plus, it will feel like I'm walking home. I'm trying to have as "green" of a hike as possible though--I'm actually working on a blog documenting my efforts to be an eco-friendly tourist."

I'm looking forward to meeting the NOBO bubble.

permagrin
01-16-2015, 18:04
I can only speak for myself, but I will be at the end? very tail? of the NOBO bubble since I will be starting from GA on May 1st. Does anyone happen to know if this date will still be flush with hikers, or will it be more of a solitary hike?

Lauriep
05-07-2015, 08:00
Just re-read this thread. Thank you Danger Dave, Carbo, and all the rest of you who were willing to change your plans and adjust your dreams for the good of the A.T.

WingedMonkey
05-07-2015, 09:18
Just re-read this thread. Thank you Danger Dave, Carbo, and all the rest of you who were willing to change your plans and adjust your dreams for the good of the A.T.

Did you nominate them to the Hall of Fame yet, or do they have to actually finish 2,000 miles?

Did they get their pics taken at headquarters for starting a hike or do they do that when the >20% of them return to Harpers Ferry?

John B
05-07-2015, 09:26
Did you nominate them to the Hall of Fame yet, or do they have to actually finish 2,000 miles?

Did they get their pics taken at headquarters for starting a hike or do they do that when the >20% of them return to Harpers Ferry?

What's up with this?

Spit Walker
05-07-2015, 11:12
The times they are a changing... How long before Alaska is no longer the last frontier? 220,000 new human beings on planet earth a day. On many parts of the AT, if you listen hard, the buzz of lawn mowers are not too far away.

salsi
05-10-2015, 00:55
due to my idea for my hike and the timing I cant start anywhere but in the bubble, however I plan on starting with 20m days so hopefully ill spring ahead of it quickly